Tension Between North Korea and South Korea

[Perpetual Change]

snip

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So I take the time to respond to your post and pose some questions to you, and instead of actually responding you just spam the board. Twice.

Cool.

[ResultsMayVary]

Pretty interesting prophecies, although hilarious. Let's see how this situation goes over the next few weeks.

The U.S. sent the USS Goerge Washington and it's battlegroup to the Yellow Sea for military exercises with the South Koreans. Apparently the Chinese aren't thrilled with this. Thoughts anyone?

[William Wallace]

You sound like a Republican pundit circa 2002.

The difference here being we're not the aggressor.

That depends on how you want to spin the sitaution, but that's not the point. You're justification is identical to Ann Coulter's eight years ago, and we simply can't intervene every time some dictator shakes his fists at his neighbors. If we continue playing world police we won't last very long as a world power.

[emindead]

Lol, trade = steal. That's a great one, PC.

Yes, LOL at the notion that most "interntional trade" is actually fair in some kind of way. Anyway...

That has nothing to do with this, but OK.

Oh, don't think I ignore SK sending food to NK as well. They are equally stupid for doing it (IMHO).

Whether you think it's OK to starve people to make an asinine point about communism doesn't have anything to do with your original point: that the US was just "fattening our enemies to take them out later" or some bullshit like that.
[/quote]
Feeding your enemies so you can punch them back later. Or, worse, feeding the enemies to keep the idea of war alive.

Well, you know, I go by the opinion that if not at war I don't see the reason to have allies in an International level. Be friendly to the most countries you can and trade with them?

So, wait, what are we supposed to do to nations that refuse to trade with anyone and just bomb their neighbors periodically (because their neighbors haven't been sending them "enough" aid)? Oh, yea, wait for their people to starve or something. Gotcha 

Uhm, yes? It's your freaking enemy. He wants your country to be wiped. Of course letting them starve to death is better than sacrificing lives of your countrymen.

Sure, but being allies? I see why would you say it's important, although I don't agree; it's just bringing the whole "his problems are my problems" mentality. Stupid IMHO.

So when someone regularly threatens those people your trading with, it's not your problem? OK. You can also just find another nation backwards at least 30 years to "trade" with, right?

Please leave the provocative comments at the door. And no, it's not your problem. There are many more nations in the world that you can open trade instead of opening a war.

And if your enemy dies starving because of his own incompetence it's much better than killing your own people in the process. People like to blatantly ignore how Soviet Russia collapsed!

No one's ignoring that, it's just not especially relevant. I'm sure if Russia had decided to start regularly threatening/bombing/killing people in Japan or another neighboring nation we're friendly with, things would have happened MUCH differently there, too.

It is relevant. A totalitarian country collapsed because their financial system was a mess. That lead to a democracy. Sure, the process is long to become as free and more democratic like other countries, but the whole war threat was over.
And supposing if the USSR had taken Berlin, and supposing that things had happened differently are just suppositions, that didn't happen. What happened is what I described you.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

What does this have to do with anything?

[emindead]

Come on, the occasional funny post. That's Dudley!

[Perpetual Change]

Feeding your enemies so you can punch them back later. Or, worse, feeding the enemies to keep the idea of war alive.

We've already established that that's a twisted and baseless claim.

Uhm, yes? It's your freaking enemy. He wants your country to be wiped. Of course letting them starve to death is better than sacrificing lives of your countrymen.

Odd. Usually libertarians don't suck so much at distinguishing governments from their people, but OK.

Please leave the provocative comments at the door. And no, it's not your problem. There are many more nations in the world that you can open trade instead of opening a war.

Oh, okay, so something like this: "When a world enemy poses a threat to your trading partners, don't do anything about, because you can always find some other nation to trade with." That's just not convincing, but it does reinforce my assumption that libertarians only care about other nation's well being when there's some resources (labor or otherwise) to exploit.

It is relevant. A totalitarian country collapsed because their financial system was a mess. That lead to a democracy. Sure, the process is long to become as free and more democratic like other countries, but the whole war threat was over.
And supposing if the USSR had taken Berlin, and supposing that things had happened differently are just suppositions, that didn't happen. What happened is what I described you.

You didn't answer the question. What if Russia had started bombing Japan, or another one of our allies? Would things have been different then? Because that's what NK is doing. Also, you are COMPLETELY ignoring the fact that what Russia was capable of doing to us was far more of a deterrent than anything Korea could do.

[emindead]

Feeding your enemies so you can punch them back later. Or, worse, feeding the enemies to keep the idea of war alive.

We've already established that that's a twisted and baseless claim.

OK.

Uhm, yes? It's your freaking enemy. He wants your country to be wiped. Of course letting them starve to death is better than sacrificing lives of your countrymen.

Odd. Usually libertarians don't suck so much at distinguishing governments from their people, but OK.

Ad hominem.

Please leave the provocative comments at the door. And no, it's not your problem. There are many more nations in the world that you can open trade instead of opening a war.

Oh, okay, so something like this: "When a world enemy poses a threat to your trading partners, don't do anything about, because you can always find some other nation to trade with." That's just not convincing.

Better.

It is relevant. A totalitarian country collapsed because their financial system was a mess. That lead to a democracy. Sure, the process is long to become as free and more democratic like other countries, but the whole war threat was over.
And supposing if the USSR had taken Berlin, and supposing that things had happened differently are just suppositions, that didn't happen. What happened is what I described you.

You didn't answer the question.

What was there to answer?

[Perpetual Change]

OK.

I thought you'd defend that one, but I guess a tepid concession is better than posting another stupid picture no-one gets

Ad hominem.

No, it's not. You actually said it's better for North Korea to starve because "they're the enemy." You clearly can't distinguish between a country and it's people, which is astounding given your political leanings.

What was there to answer?

See the edit.

[emindead]

Ad hominem.

No, it's not. You actually said it's better for North Korea to starve because "they're the enemy." You clearly can't distinguish between a country and it's people, which is astounding given your political leanings.

I'm Libertarian, what does it have to do with the discussion? You say that I suck at being a Libertarian because I can't distinguish between citizens and governments. Um, OK?

[Perpetual Change]

Ad hominem.

No, it's not. You actually said it's better for North Korea to starve because "they're the enemy." You clearly can't distinguish between a country and it's people, which is astounding given your political leanings.

I'm Libertarian, what does it have to do with the discussion? You say that I suck at being a Libertarian because I can't distinguish between citizens and governments. Um, OK?

That's not what I said at all. I said you're not making a distinction between individuals and their governments when you say things like "Of course you want them to starve, they're your enemy!" Don't libertarians value individuals OVER their governments? I have a hard time believing you really can't follow.

I'm glad you came back on topic, but if you're just gonna duck away and try and say I'm going off-topic around every corner and pretend I'm victimizing you, which I'm not, then why even bother?

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Come on, the occasional funny post. That's Dudley!

Keep it in the chat thread. These threads are supposed to be for serious discussion. This is how threads get derailed and why P/R can turn into a shitstorm sometimes

[El Barto]

Pretty interesting prophecies, although hilarious. Let's see how this situation goes over the next few weeks.

The U.S. sent the USS Goerge Washington and it's battlegroup to the Yellow Sea for military exercises with the South Koreans. Apparently the Chinese aren't thrilled with this. Thoughts anyone?

The Chinese understand what's going on.  They don't want us in their neck of the woods, but they understand the need.  I guarantee you they're more upset with the DPRK for forcing the situation than they are with us.  This is a good thing.  I think that we all agree that the best solution is for China to reign in North Korea, and if Kim keeps forcing US involvement in the Yellow Sea, China will have to do something about it. 

[ResultsMayVary]

Pretty interesting prophecies, although hilarious. Let's see how this situation goes over the next few weeks.

The U.S. sent the USS Goerge Washington and it's battlegroup to the Yellow Sea for military exercises with the South Koreans. Apparently the Chinese aren't thrilled with this. Thoughts anyone?

The Chinese understand what's going on.  They don't want us in their neck of the woods, but they understand the need.  I guarantee you they're more upset with the DPRK for forcing the situation than they are with us.  This is a good thing.  I think that we all agree that the best solution is for China to reign in North Korea, and if Kim keeps forcing US involvement in the Yellow Sea, China will have to do something about it. 

And that's when things will get interesting.

[TheVoxyn]

So, what do you guys think will happen? So far it seems to be nothing but empty threats going in both way, but it looks like a small spark could bring the whole situation to a different level (aka, war).

[El Barto]

So, what do you guys think will happen? So far it seems to be nothing but empty threats going in both way, but it looks like a small spark could bring the whole situation to a different level (aka, war).

Probably nothing at all.  We'll play in the Yellow Sea for a while, and China will quietly tell the DPRK to chill the fuck out.  The wildcard is South Korea.  Threatening vengeance doesn't help the situation.  The likelihood is that this whole thing blows over like it always does, but you can't rule out the possibility that some South Korean cowboy shoots somebody he's not supposed to. 

[Perpetual Change]

You sound like a Republican pundit circa 2002.

The difference here being we're not the aggressor.

That depends on how you want to spin the sitaution, but that's not the point. You're justification is identical to Ann Coulter's eight years ago, and we simply can't intervene every time some dictator shakes his fists at his neighbors. If we continue playing world police we won't last very long as a world power.

Sorry, I'd accidentally skipped over this. While I agree with the general sentiment here, I want to point out that North Korea isn't just another backwards country that wants to be left alone. They're trolling the world. That alone isn't justification for a war, but when they start showing signs of aggression we all should naturally be more concerned. I'm also of the opinion that this whole thing is just going to blow over, but it remains to be sign how badly North Korea will act in the future.

[Adami]

Nothing will happen. The son is transitioning into power and waving his cock around. Nothing more.

[emindead]

Nothing will happen. The son is transitioning into power and waving his cock around. Nothing more.

I doubt it's just that.

https://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/national/2010/11/28/25/0301000000AEN20101128002500315F.HTML


2010/11/28 12:48 KST

(2nd LD) Signs of N. Korea's artillery firing detected: South's military
SEOUL, Nov. 28 (Yonhap) -- South Korea's military had ordered civilians on a border island to evacuate to shelters, military officials said Sunday, after hearing sounds of "several rounds" of artillery firing, though no shells landed on the island.

   While the emergency evacuation order on Yeonpyeong Island, devastated by North Korea's artillery attack on Tuesday, was lifted, military officials said they are keeping a close watch on the movements of the North's coastline artillery batteries as they maintain a "ready-to-fire" posture.

   "The evacuation order was issued after sounds of several rounds of North Korea's artillery were heard on Yeonpyeong," said an official at the South's Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS).

   The JCS official said, however, the distant sounds of artillery firing came from the North's firing training inside its territory, not the coastline artillery near the island.

   The evacuation order came hours after Seoul and Washington started large-scale naval drills in the Yellow Sea in a show of force against North Korean aggression.

   The island was shelled by North Korea on Tuesday. Two marines and two civilians were killed in the North's artillery attack. Most of some 1,700 civilian residents on the island have already left the island, but some 20 residents are still there.

[ack44]

Nothing will happen. The son is transitioning into power and waving his cock around. Nothing more.

Cock-waving doesn't kill people. This is Asia.

[El Barto]

Nothing will happen. The son is transitioning into power and waving his cock around. Nothing more.

Cock-waving doesn't kill people. This is Asia.

Yeah, being Asian they'd be more likely to inspire laughter and pity.   

[zerogravityfat]

Nothing will happen. The son is transitioning into power and waving his cock around. Nothing more.

Cock-waving doesn't kill people. This is Asia.

Yeah, being Asian they'd be more likely to inspire laughter and pity.   

uber bazinga.

[El Barto]

WikiLeaks: China weary of North Korea behaving like 'spoiled child'

According to cables obtained by WikiLeaks, South Korea's then vice foreign minister, Chun Yung-woo, said earlier this year that senior Chinese officials (whose names are redacted in the cables) had told him they believed Korea should be reunified under Seoul's control, and that this view was gaining ground with the leadership in Beijing.

Chun was quoted at length in a cable sent by the U.S. ambassador in Seoul, Kathleen Stephens, earlier this year. He is reported as saying that "the North had already collapsed economically and would collapse politically two to three years after the death of (leader) Kim Jong-il."

Chun, who has since become South Korea's National Security Adviser, dismissed the prospect of China's military intervention in the event of a North Korean collapse, noting that "China's strategic economic interests now lie with the United States, Japan, and South Korea -- not North Korea."

He said that younger generation Chinese Communist party leaders no longer regarded North Korea as a useful or reliable ally and would not risk renewed armed conflict on the peninsula, according to a secret cable to Washington.

This was obviously before the most recent tantrum, so it's a safe bet that things have gotten even more tense between them.

[William Wallace]

Nothing will happen. The son is transitioning into power and waving his cock around. Nothing more.

I think this sums up the situation well. If they did anything else we'd blow the country to smithereens, his cock too.

[Adami]

The reason he's doing so much is because his father got A LOT of attention. If his dad was just some quiet dick, then we wouldn't be hearing much. But he has to make his name and show that he is also to be taken as seriously (read paid as much attention to) as Kim Jon Il. That's no easy task.

[ack44]

I don't think Kim Jong Un has any say in anything at this point. He's probably a total spoiled noob (though he is a general) and mostly inexperienced. He's not the oldest son and they probably weren't training him to be the successor. I'm really skeptical of the view that Kim Jong Il actually controls things in NK. The country is badly run, but you have to actually be pretty good at what you're doing to run a country THAT bad. Nothing convinces me that Kim has those skills.

[William Wallace]

Time to pull the troops out of Korea?

https://www.ocregister.com/opinion/north-277966-korea-nuclear.html

Eight months after sinking a South Korean warship, North Korea launched an artillery barrage last week against South Korean territory. Even worse, the North is a nuclear power.
The U.S. should get used to it. Washington's drive to prevent the Democratic People's Republic of Korea from acquiring nuclear weapons is dead.

Yet the Obama administration is pushing to restart nuclear negotiations with Pyongyang. Assistant Secretary of State Kurt Campbell recently opined: "We need to see a very clear signal that this new leadership – or some structure in North Korea – accepts the very clear commitments that North Korea made in 2005 to denuclearization."
There's little reason to believe those commitments were ever sincere. Nuclear weapons offer the Kim regime obvious advantages internationally.

The domestic reasons are no less compelling. How better to run a "military first" policy than to give the armed services the ultimate weapon?

Whether Kim Jong Il was ever willing to trade away his nuclear program may never be known. Maybe he's still prepared to yield up future production. But he has given no indication that he is willing to turn over his existing arsenal.
Indeed, the regime appears to have restarted construction activity at the Yongbyon nuclear site, where in 2008 it demolished an old reactor's cooling tower. Moreover, the North Koreans last week unveiled a new uranium enrichment facility.

Pyongyang's recent policy towards the South has been unreservedly hostile. Last March the DPRK sank a South Korean corvette, the Cheonan, killing 46 sailors. Now, it has bombarded a South Korean island, killing four, including two civilians, and wounding a score of others.
Unfortunately, the situation is only likely to worsen as "Dear Leader" Kim Jong Il attempts to pass power on to his youngest son, Kim Jong Un. Despite the formal anointment at the recent meeting of the Korean Workers Party, the succession may not be smooth.
There are many potential claimants for power – Kim Jong Il's sister and brother-in-law, a slightly older son criticized as effeminate by his father and an even older son by a different wife living in disgraced but luxurious exile in Macau. Plus numerous party and military officials who have been waiting for years for their turn at the top.

Moreover, an uncertain political environment discourages serious negotiation over nonproliferation. A weakened Dear Leader dependent on military support is not likely to sacrifice the nuclear weapons developed at enormous expense. No one struggling for power after his demise is likely to stand against the military.

Thus, the best outcome in the next several years likely is the status quo. Negotiations may not hurt, but they are unlikely to provide any discernible benefit.
Unfortunately, none of the DPRK's neighbors are inclined to be particularly helpful.
South Korea's policy has ranged from isolation of, to subsidies for, the North, while relying on the U.S. for its defense. Japan has subordinated policy towards the DPRK to resolving the status of Japanese citizens kidnapped by Pyongyang's agents in past years.
The ever more assertive Beijing obviously believes that stability matters more than anything else. Indeed, the Chinese have been expanding investment in the North. The result has been to discourage reform.

Nothing is likely to change in the near future. Washington should step back and leave the issue to the North's neighbors.
The only Americans within easy reach of Pyongyang's weapons are the thousands of U.S. troops stationed in South Korea. Given the South's manifold advantages over North Korea, an American military garrison is unnecessary. The troops should come home.
Then Washington should adopt a policy of benign neglect towards the North. Let Seoul, Tokyo, and Beijing bear the risk of implosion, war, or proliferation.

In particular, the U.S. should point out to China that North Korea remains a potential national powder keg, with a rushed power transfer in the midst of a continuing economic crisis. Moreover, a regime willing to risk war with South Korea may make a deadlier miscalculating in the future.
Moreover, Washington should indicate that it does not intend to allow nonproliferation policy to leave only the bad guys with nuclear weapons. Should the North continue with its nuclear program, the U.S. would reconsider its opposition to the acquisition of nuclear weapons by South Korea and Japan.

Nuclear proliferation in Northeast Asia might be a nightmare, but if so, it will be one shared by Beijing.
Then the U.S. should turn its attention elsewhere.

Washington's policy towards the DPRK has failed. North Korea is a nuclear power and is unlikely to voluntarily surrender that status.
Rather than continue a fruitless campaign to denuclearize the North, the U.S. should hand off the problem to those nations with the most at stake in a peaceful and stable North Korea. Those nations with the most at stake should take the lead in resolving Northeast Asia's problems.

[Adami]

So I guess this makes my friends plans to move to korea to teach kind of obsolete?

[ack44]

America should eventually get out of Asia, but the timing makes no sense so fail article.

[Perpetual Change]

Actually, the timing is perfect. But since the nations near North Korea won't do a thing about it, either NK will implode or they'll continue to be a menace and the US will eventually have to save the day again, and then everyone will cry about it later, and more albums like "Scarsick" will be written.

[ack44]

Actually, the timing is perfect...  more albums like "Scarsick" will be written.

There, I deepified your post for you.

[7StringedBeast]

I worked on this show a few weeks ago that may or may not end up airing on MTV.  It's made by the people at Vice magazine.  Anyways, they got to go in and film a tour of North Korea.  It's the most insane country in the world I am convinced.  They have this thing called the Airrang games.  This is where about 120,000 - 160,000 people perform a show of the Korean revolution to an audience of about 36 people.  That's right, THOUSANDS of people are trained from childhood/birth to perform for 36 elite people in North Korea.  They got to film these games and its absolutely insane.

Basically, they found that North Korea is all about show.  They just want to put on a big show.  They aren't as big a threat as they will have people believe.  It's all a big act on their part.  

[El Barto]

I worked on this show a few weeks ago that may or may not end up airing on MTV.  It's made by the people at Vice magazine.  Anyways, they got to go in and film a tour of North Korea.  It's the most insane country in the world I am convinced.  They have this thing called the Airrang games.  This is where about 120,000 - 160,000 people perform a show of the Korean revolution to an audience of about 36 people.  That's right, THOUSANDS of people are trained from childhood/birth to perform for 36 elite people in North Korea.  They got to film these games and its absolutely insane.

Basically, they found that North Korea is all about show.  They just want to put on a big show.  They aren't as big a threat as they will have people believe.  It's all a big act on their part.  

That thing actually looks pretty bad ass.  I'm not saying they aren't insane--who knows.  But the event seems pretty cool, and appears to be a lot more than " a show of the Korean revolution to an audience of about 36 people."
https://1stopkorea.com/index.htm?nk-trip5.htm~mainframe

[7StringedBeast]

No they really only do put that show on for only a few people.  They showed the viewing area, the stadium is completely gutted out except for one section to view the show, and it only has a few chairs/booths for a few dozen people.  And it is a show about the korean revolution.

[Chino]

https://1stopkorea.com/index.htm?nk-trip5.htm~mainframe

Thats insane...