Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero

[Seventh Son]

As someone pointed out, if a Christian extremist group had attacked us and they wanted to build a church, nobody would cry foul

While you're correct that a lot of the opposition to this is based on prejudice, this type of statement is totally asinine, implausible, and certainly untrue.

No, its pretty much spot on.

Exactly what I wanted to say, but just couldn't manage to actually say it 

You're on a roll lately.
The thing is, if a Christian maniac blows something up, it's because he's a maniac.  If a Muslim maniac blows something up, it's because of Islam.  Nobody wants to believe that their own religion can be problematic and you can't convince them that opposing religions are anything but.  The devout are blinded to their own hypocrisy. 

[King Postwhore]

I think we all know that there is bad in all religons and the history of their deeds prove this.

PLM, mabye some people lump all Islamics together.  I for one don't.  And for anyone to believes this kind of thought process only occurs in the USA has blinders on.

Bart, I get your point but some places, like Pearl Harbor, should be sacred.  I would hope for Iraq's sake, they do the same.

[j]

As someone pointed out, if a Christian extremist group had attacked us and they wanted to build a church, nobody would cry foul

While you're correct that a lot of the opposition to this is based on prejudice, this type of statement is totally asinine, implausible, and certainly untrue.

No, its pretty much spot on.

Care to explain?  Not that I endorse fanatical religious behavior of any kind, but I can think of no modern examples of fringe Christians blowing shit up in the name of their religion.  Militant Islamic extremists, while not at all representative of Islam as a whole, have frequently openly invoked their beliefs as the motivation for their violence.

While there are some fundamentalist Christian tendencies in this country that can be frustrating, a Christian who started bombing subways or whatever in Jesus's name would absolutely result in a huge outcry.  The backlash against Christianity itself would likely not be nearly as intense, but what do you expect?  The people of this country are familiar with Christianity; Islam remains a relative unknown which is easy to unite against out of fear and ignorance.  This, as El Barto noted, is idiotic and sad, but it certainly doesn't mean that nobody would "cry foul".  There is simply no comparison between the two scenarios, at least one of which is completely hypothetical.

-J

[El Barto]

Interesting distinction.  I'm not sure how many Muslims there are to whom Islam is a motivation to blow shit up as opposed to a justification after the fact.  My guess is that there are usually social or political reasons which compel them to act and Alla comes in afterward to provide a sense of legitimacy.  (Not to mention a recruitment tool to convince the simple-minded to blow themselves to bits)  I don't think Eric Rudolph ever said God told him to blow people up.  He acted on his own and invoked scripture afterward as a defense.

It's also interesting to note that Rudolph did garner a considerable amount of support from Christians.  

Edit:  Oh yeah:

Bart, I get your point but some places, like Pearl Harbor, should be sacred.  I would hope for Iraq's sake, they do the same.

Interesting point.  The extent to which Pearl should be considered sacred ground is the Arizona Memorial, which is of course a tomb.  The rest of it is open for business.  Business which includes an enormous military presence, countless Starbuck's and McDonalds, and most interestingly of all, a Shinto shrine.  Also worth noting that the Pearl Harbor Memorial Chapel also hosts Shento ceremonies. 

[TAC]

J  Makes a good point. Look how much bashing Religion/Christianity took in the 80's with the burning of albums and the Jim Baker stuff.

[King Postwhore]

Bart, I'm ok with the center now that I know it's not right at the twin towers area.  Just like you pointed out that about the Arizona Memorial.

I also believe that Japan was repentant towards their part in WWII including the attack of Pearl Harbor. i don't think we'll ever hear an apology for 9/11.  Though, in truthfulness, That aattack was done by terrorist and not by a country in war.  Which mabye leads to a lot of americans so against a mosque.

[chknptpie]

Care to explain?  Not that I endorse fanatical religious behavior of any kind, but I can think of no modern examples of fringe Christians blowing shit up in the name of their religion.  Militant Islamic extremists, while not at all representative of Islam as a whole, have frequently openly invoked their beliefs as the motivation for their violence.

-J

What about bombing abortion clinics in the name of Jesus? Army of God as a main example.

[j]

Interesting distinction.  I'm not sure how many Muslims there are to whom Islam is a motivation to blow shit up as opposed to a justification after the fact.  My guess is that there are usually social or political reasons which compel them to act and Alla comes in afterward to provide a sense of legitimacy.  (Not to mention a recruitment tool to convince the simple-minded to blow themselves to bits)  I don't think Eric Rudolph ever said God told him to blow people up.  He acted on his own and invoked scripture afterward as a defense. 

I don't know either, but I'm sure you're right about there being an underlying social or political (or other) motivation.  There's an interesting question regarding the psychology of religion in there somewhere.  But whether it's a motivating factor or subsequent justification doesn't really make a difference.

Care to explain?  Not that I endorse fanatical religious behavior of any kind, but I can think of no modern examples of fringe Christians blowing shit up in the name of their religion.  Militant Islamic extremists, while not at all representative of Islam as a whole, have frequently openly invoked their beliefs as the motivation for their violence.

-J

What about bombing abortion clinics in the name of Jesus? Army of God as a main example.

Actually, great example, I hadn't thought of that.

-J

[El Barto]

Interesting distinction.  I'm not sure how many Muslims there are to whom Islam is a motivation to blow shit up as opposed to a justification after the fact.  My guess is that there are usually social or political reasons which compel them to act and Alla comes in afterward to provide a sense of legitimacy.  (Not to mention a recruitment tool to convince the simple-minded to blow themselves to bits)  I don't think Eric Rudolph ever said God told him to blow people up.  He acted on his own and invoked scripture afterward as a defense. 

I don't know either, but I'm sure you're right about there being an underlying social or political (or other) motivation.  There's an interesting question regarding the psychology of religion in there somewhere.  But whether it's a motivating factor or subsequent justification doesn't really make a difference.

-J

To you and I, it doesn't make a difference.  To the asshats that'll use their actions as a blanket condemnation of Islam, it's a distinction that's very important but lost in the bigger picture. 

[icysk8r]

The point of churches being built in Iraq by christian american organizations is a good one. Should those be banned too?

Adami..OK..I don't know if you're for this/playing devil's advocate/or just stirring up shit...No one is banning the building of mosques. I don't understand why you're not getting this.  Who is promoting a ban on mosques? Tell me..who? All I'm saying is Ground Zero is NOT the place for one. That's all.

No.  That place should hold a special place in our hearts.  A memorial just like Pearl Harbor would be fine with me.

Exactly this!

It isn't being built on Ground Zero.  it's blocks away.  Fine.  Let's demolish every business within 10 blocks so it can 'hold a special place in our hearts'

[King Postwhore]

The point of churches being built in Iraq by christian american organizations is a good one. Should those be banned too?

Adami..OK..I don't know if you're for this/playing devil's advocate/or just stirring up shit...No one is banning the building of mosques. I don't understand why you're not getting this.  Who is promoting a ban on mosques? Tell me..who? All I'm saying is Ground Zero is NOT the place for one. That's all.

No.  That place should hold a special place in our hearts.  A memorial just like Pearl Harbor would be fine with me.

Exactly this!

It isn't being built on Ground Zero.  it's blocks away.  Fine.  Let's demolish every business within 10 blocks so it can 'hold a special place in our hearts'

I see you haven't read my other posts icy.  You should do so before posting what you did.

[emindead]

Funny thing is that right after 9/11 happened the jokes started to happen. One of the most recurrent was the one that said something like: "You know how they are going to start building safe skyscrapers in the USA? Two mosques, a tall building. Two mosques, a tall building". Nine years later, and it apparently happened (even though it's not a mosque).

What El Barto, TL, hef, and Adami have said is spot on.

Even if we're talking about private property, this is not the Land of the Free anymore, right?

[icysk8r]

The point of churches being built in Iraq by christian american organizations is a good one. Should those be banned too?

Adami..OK..I don't know if you're for this/playing devil's advocate/or just stirring up shit...No one is banning the building of mosques. I don't understand why you're not getting this.  Who is promoting a ban on mosques? Tell me..who? All I'm saying is Ground Zero is NOT the place for one. That's all.

No.  That place should hold a special place in our hearts.  A memorial just like Pearl Harbor would be fine with me.

Exactly this!

It isn't being built on Ground Zero.  it's blocks away.  Fine.  Let's demolish every business within 10 blocks so it can 'hold a special place in our hearts'

I see you haven't read my other posts icy.  You should do so before posting what you did.

I apologize.  I read the first few pages (2 or 3) and decided not much opinion could have been changed in one page.  I apologized if you all came to a consensus on this, though.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

The point I always make to people who are all "IT'S TWO BLOCKS AWAY, IT'S RIGHT ON SACRED GROUND!!!  OH NOES!!" is "Okay, how far away would it have to be for you to feel okay about it?"  It then becomes a matter of arbitrary opinion on the other person's part and they never really seem to come up with a defensible answer.

[Adami]

The point I always make to people who are all "IT'S TWO BLOCKS AWAY, IT'S RIGHT ON SACRED GROUND!!!  OH NOES!!" is "Okay, how far away would it have to be for you to feel okay about it?"  It then becomes a matter of arbitrary opinion on the other person's part and they never really seem to come up with a defensible answer.

50,000 light years.

[El Barto]

The point I always make to people who are all "IT'S TWO BLOCKS AWAY, IT'S RIGHT ON SACRED GROUND!!!  OH NOES!!" is "Okay, how far away would it have to be for you to feel okay about it?"  It then becomes a matter of arbitrary opinion on the other person's part and they never really seem to come up with a defensible answer.

The distance is irrelevant--it's the affiliation.  If the center were built 9 miles away, but named "the September 11th Memorial Islamic Outreach Center," the same people would be just as upset. 

"IT'S OUR TRAGEDY!! YOU CAN'T HAVE IT!!"

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Oh, I know that the distance IS irrelevant.  Those that don't care say "It's two blocks away, you can't see it from there anyway!"  Those opposed always insist that it's "Hallowed Ground" and they shouldn't put it there.  So that's my argument - if not there, then how far away can it be before it makes it okay for you?  The distance IS completely irrelevant.  That's why it irritates me when people complain about it being on "Hallowed Ground".  Because #1) it isn't on "Hallowed Ground" and #2) it probably wouldn't matter to MOST of them where it was built, really.

Also, can a mod or somebody change the title of this thread to "Community Center to go up near New York's ground zero"?  Because there is no mosque going up.  Calling this a mosque would be like calling St. Mary's Hospital a church, simply because there's a chapel inside it somewhere.

[rumborak]

The sad part is how accepted populism is in this country, and actually seen as a viable way of doing politics.
Palin is riding on plain anti-Islam sentiment, and gives her supporters crafted lines they can say during rallies so they don't make it obvious.

rumborak

[King Postwhore]

The point I always make to people who are all "IT'S TWO BLOCKS AWAY, IT'S RIGHT ON SACRED GROUND!!!  OH NOES!!" is "Okay, how far away would it have to be for you to feel okay about it?"  It then becomes a matter of arbitrary opinion on the other person's part and they never really seem to come up with a defensible answer.

The distance is irrelevant--it's the affiliation.  If the center were built 9 miles away, but named "the September 11th Memorial Islamic Outreach Center," the same people would be just as upset. 

"IT'S OUR TRAGEDY!! YOU CAN'T HAVE IT!!"

I believe I contradicted your statement. Truth is, a lot of people like me should look where it was being built oursevles instead of listening to the media.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

You did.  I applaud that, because (as you said) a lot of people blindly take what is spoon fed them from Fox News, Glenn Beck, Sarah Palin, the media and have this (IMO) completely unnecessary sense of upset over something that is really not worth getting upset over.  When you're that (somehow) emotionally invested in the whole matter, it's not always easy to look at the facts and consider that there just might be another way of looking at things.

[DISCLAIMER] To all members: Yes, I know not everybody blindly goes along with everything they hear, are informed of the facts, and are still entitled to their opinion, yes, I know, yes, I know.  I don't believe my opinion is the be all end all of opinions.  Don't get pissy with me. [/DISCLAIMER]


Also, a nice piece from the people over ar Cracked (not sure if this was posted yet):

Link

[El Barto]

And what are we saying to Muslims? That if they were good Americans they would willingly give up their rights?

 

[Chino]

If they don't end up being able to construct the mosque, I will lose faith in everything America is suppose to represent.

[hefdaddy42]

Also, can a mod or somebody change the title of this thread to "Community Center to go up near New York's ground zero"?  Because there is no mosque going up.  Calling this a mosque would be like calling St. Mary's Hospital a church, simply because there's a chapel inside it somewhere.

[Sigz]

Very related: https://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/

He told reporters that the closest he had come to confronting a contrary standpoint was tuning in to the first few seconds of an interview with a moderate Muslim cleric before hastily turning off the television.

"I almost gave in and listened to that guy defend Islam with words I didn't want to hear," Gentries said. "But then I remembered how much easier it is to live in a world of black-and-white in which I can assign the label of 'other' to someone and use him as a vessel for all my fears and insecurities."

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

The Onion knocks it outta the park again. 

[EPICVIEW]

How many people here are from the NYC/NJ area?

I am.

[El Barto]

I haven't seen ZGF or Millah in this thread, so to the best of my knowledge, that leaves you and Quad.

Now, is this idle curiosity or will there be a point forthcoming?

[Arcaeus]

Very related: https://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/

He told reporters that the closest he had come to confronting a contrary standpoint was tuning in to the first few seconds of an interview with a moderate Muslim cleric before hastily turning off the television.

"I almost gave in and listened to that guy defend Islam with words I didn't want to hear," Gentries said. "But then I remembered how much easier it is to live in a world of black-and-white in which I can assign the label of 'other' to someone and use him as a vessel for all my fears and insecurities."

We should put The Onion in charge of the country.

[zerogravityfat]

I haven't seen ZGF or Millah in this thread, so to the best of my knowledge, that leaves you and Quad.

Now, is this idle curiosity or will there be a point forthcoming?

Oh I'm here, I'm just conflicted as to what I think. I am completely against organized religion so it is beneficial for me that this center is not functional. On the other hand if a secular state is preaching (see what i did there?) freedom of speech, then the state has a responsibility to tell the public that it is in the group's right to do whatever they please as long as it's withing the laws of the land and they should disperse.

Also, I like the architecture, it will add to a hideous downtown riddled with abandoned buildings. The only people who actually will see that building are the people who come to visit the ground zero and the people who live in the area. The area was abandoned after 9/11 and all the businesses relocated, so they converted all the buildings to residences. After 8pm, there is not a soul around there since all the businesses cater to the 9-5 wall street.

[rumborak]

I really think it's New York that needs to decide on this issue, not some Joe Schmoe from across the country who thinks the terrorists created a shrine for him to worship his narrow-mindedness at.

rumborak

[Tuneman]

I haven't seen ZGF or Millah in this thread, so to the best of my knowledge, that leaves you and Quad.

Now, is this idle curiosity or will there be a point forthcoming?

Oh I'm here, I'm just conflicted as to what I think. I am completely against organized religion so it is beneficial for me that this center is not functional. On the other hand if a secular state is preaching (see what i did there?) freedom of speech, then the state has a responsibility to tell the public that it is in the group's right to do whatever they please as long as it's withing the laws of the land and they should disperse.

Also, I like the architecture, it will add to a hideous downtown riddled with abandoned buildings. The only people who actually will see that building are the people who come to visit the ground zero and the people who live in the area. The area was abandoned after 9/11 and all the businesses relocated, so they converted all the buildings to residences. After 8pm, there is not a soul around there since all the businesses cater to the 9-5 wall street.

Not all downtown is shit, battery park is nice, city hall area is nice, its that shit in the middle

[Tuneman]

I really think it's New York that needs to decide on this issue, not some Joe Schmoe from across the country who thinks the terrorists created a shrine for him to worship his narrow-mindedness at.

rumborak

new york should have no say in what they build on their property as long as it doesn't damage or diminish anyone else's private property

[zerogravityfat]

battery park is nice, but none of the downtown has what i would consider nyc level social life. it's pretty dead after a certain time.

[EPICVIEW]

I haven't seen ZGF or Millah in this thread, so to the best of my knowledge, that leaves you and Quad.

Now, is this idle curiosity or will there be a point forthcoming?

I dont speak much as we know (as that didnt go so well for me). I was more just interested in who was from NYC or works in NYC or lives in very close proximity. I did tons of work in the WTC

have a nice day

[rumborak]

I really think it's New York that needs to decide on this issue, not some Joe Schmoe from across the country who thinks the terrorists created a shrine for him to worship his narrow-mindedness at.

rumborak

new york should have no say in what they build on their property as long as it doesn't damage or diminish anyone else's private property

Well, that's kinda what I meant. Whoever "owns" the property, be it the city of New York or some private owner, should have the say in this, not some rabble from across the country.

rumborak