Author Topic: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero  (Read 30031 times)

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Offline orcus116

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #210 on: September 06, 2010, 10:51:59 AM »
I don't think they come across as arrogant and stubborn so much as the people with your exact line of thinking are completely overreacting. They're not seen as stubborn and arrogant because they are stubborn and arrogant, they're seen that way because they bought some property and when they laid out what they wanted to build there people freaked and called them insensitive when I'm almost positive they had no ill intent. This attitude and blatant disregard doesn't actually exist, it's manufactured inside the mind of someone who jumps to ridiculous conclusions without consulting, you know, logic.

The only thing I will say in response to this is that Muslims are never the stubborn, arrogant ones.  They're always in the right.  Americans, on the other hand, are always the arrogant ones.  If you choose to respond to this, that's fine, but it seems like one of those things that's kind of pointless to debate.  You see it one way, I see it another way - I don't know how productive it is to argue about it.  But, feel free if you wish. 

You're right, it is pointless because I don't like arguing with exaggerated "playing the victim" responses. Why even include the 'always' when we're talking about one specific instance? That made no sense whatsoever.


Offline juice

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #211 on: September 06, 2010, 11:28:16 AM »
Technically I guess they have the right to build the building but I don't think they should.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #212 on: September 06, 2010, 12:13:26 PM »
I think they should if their intention is to help the community.

America needs to end this grudge, so do muslim rebels. I consider Osama and his group to be rebels for they felt we were trying to destroy their culture, by drilling for oil and all that weapons bullshit. They had enough and felt the only was through violent means. But just because they did this doesn't mean they are all like that. Most will probably agree what they did was wrong and Could've been done by other means. That's also probably why Obama pulled out to let them rebuild they don't need us, let them reconstruct their OWN land the way they want. it's theirs not ours
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Offline zerogravityfat

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #213 on: September 06, 2010, 03:48:07 PM »
I think they should if their intention is to help the community.

America needs to end this grudge, so do muslim rebels. I consider Osama and his group to be rebels for they felt we were trying to destroy their culture, by drilling for oil and all that weapons bullshit. They had enough and felt the only was through violent means. But just because they did this doesn't mean they are all like that. Most will probably agree what they did was wrong and Could've been done by other means. That's also probably why Obama pulled out to let them rebuild they don't need us, let them reconstruct their OWN land the way they want. it's theirs not ours


Osama seemed to have no problems with USA when he was getting funded by CIA to drive out the Russians, I think you are being very naive if you really think they do anything they do to protect their culture or religion.
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Offline SnakeEyes

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #214 on: September 06, 2010, 05:06:49 PM »
Osama seemed to have no problems with USA when he was getting funded by CIA to drive out the Russians, I think you are being very naive if you really think they do anything they do to protect their culture or religion.

I agree with this, BUT I think we have to make a distinction between the people who planned the attacks and the people who carried out the attacks.  In my opinion, the ONLY way someone gets on an airplane and flies it straight into the side of the World Trade Center is through religion.  I fully believe that the hijackers were sold an ideology [a religious one] and that's why they did it.

Now that Obama has closed Gitmo, when will he turn his attention to the abuses and torturing of the onions that are used to make the angry whopper?

Offline SnakeEyes

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #215 on: September 06, 2010, 05:24:42 PM »
Oh, and I just did a little reading on Eric Rudolph.  From what I read, it looks like he denied that his motivations were religious.  Anyone have more information on this?
Now that Obama has closed Gitmo, when will he turn his attention to the abuses and torturing of the onions that are used to make the angry whopper?

Offline Adami

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #216 on: September 06, 2010, 07:05:15 PM »
Osama seemed to have no problems with USA when he was getting funded by CIA to drive out the Russians, I think you are being very naive if you really think they do anything they do to protect their culture or religion.

I agree with this, BUT I think we have to make a distinction between the people who planned the attacks and the people who carried out the attacks.  In my opinion, the ONLY way someone gets on an airplane and flies it straight into the side of the World Trade Center is through religion.  I fully believe that the hijackers were sold an ideology [a religious one] and that's why they did it.



Why do suicide bombers have to be religious? There were plenty before who had no religious modivation, and I'm sure many more to follow.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #217 on: September 06, 2010, 07:54:49 PM »
Osama seemed to have no problems with USA when he was getting funded by CIA to drive out the Russians, I think you are being very naive if you really think they do anything they do to protect their culture or religion.

I agree with this, BUT I think we have to make a distinction between the people who planned the attacks and the people who carried out the attacks.  In my opinion, the ONLY way someone gets on an airplane and flies it straight into the side of the World Trade Center is through religion.  I fully believe that the hijackers were sold an ideology [a religious one] and that's why they did it.


The Kamikaze weren't acting out of religious beliefs.  Their motivations could best be described as patriotic.  I imagine, just like the hijackers, their religious beliefs made it much easier for them to act, but that doesn't equate to their reason to act; only their willingness.  The only reason that one could indict Islam for the attacks is if it specifically compelled them to act.  They had a variety of reasons, and while probably the defense of Islam was one of them, that doesn't make the religion itself dangerous.  Any religion can make people do damn-fool things. 


Oh, and I just did a little reading on Eric Rudolph.  From what I read, it looks like he denied that his motivations were religious.  Anyone have more information on this?
Very similar to what I just explained, Rudolph denies that Christianity compelled him to act.  The thing is, much like the hijackers, he was convinced that the Big Guy would take care of him because he was doing God's work, protecting the precious little lambs from being slaughtered. 
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Offline SnakeEyes

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #218 on: September 06, 2010, 10:03:07 PM »
The Kamikaze weren't acting out of religious beliefs.  Their motivations could best be described as patriotic.  I imagine, just like the hijackers, their religious beliefs made it much easier for them to act, but that doesn't equate to their reason to act; only their willingness.

From Wikipedia:

Quote
In 1944–45, the Japanese were heavily influenced by Shinto beliefs. Among other things, Emperor worship was stressed after Shinto was established as a state religion during the Meiji Restoration. As time went on, Shinto was used increasingly in the promotion of nationalist sentiment. In 1890, the Imperial Rescript on Education was passed, under which students were required to ritually recite its oath to offer themselves "courageously to the State" as well as protect the Imperial family. The ultimate offering was to give up one’s life. It was an honor to die for Japan and the Emperor. Axell and Kase pointed out: "The fact is that innumerable soldiers, sailors and pilots were determined to die, to become eirei, that is ‘guardian spirits’ of the country. [...] Many Japanese felt that to be enshrined at Yasukuni was a special honour because the Emperor twice a year visited the shrine to pay homage. Yasukuni is the only shrine, deifying common men, which the Emperor would visit to pay his respects".[26] Young Japanese people were indoctrinated from an earliest age with these ideals.

I would say that the 9-11 hijackers were "more" religious - or, more passionate - about their cause, but to say that the Japanese didn't fly suicide missions for any religious reason is not accurate.    

Quote
The only reason that one could indict Islam for the attacks is if it specifically compelled them to act.  They had a variety of reasons, and while probably the defense of Islam was one of them, that doesn't make the religion itself dangerous.  Any religion can make people do damn-fool things.

I didn't "indict Islam" or say that Islam is dangerous.  What I said is that the hijackers used Islam as the reasoning for what they did.    

Quote
Very similar to what I just explained, Rudolph denies that Christianity compelled him to act.  The thing is, much like the hijackers, he was convinced that the Big Guy would take care of him because he was doing God's work, protecting the precious little lambs from being slaughtered.  

Well, I never heard about anyone complaining about Christian churches being built in the areas that be bombed.  Did you?
Now that Obama has closed Gitmo, when will he turn his attention to the abuses and torturing of the onions that are used to make the angry whopper?

Offline El Barto

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #219 on: September 06, 2010, 10:30:43 PM »
The Kamikaze weren't acting out of religious beliefs.  Their motivations could best be described as patriotic.  I imagine, just like the hijackers, their religious beliefs made it much easier for them to act, but that doesn't equate to their reason to act; only their willingness.

From Wikipedia:

Quote
In 1944–45, the Japanese were heavily influenced by Shinto beliefs. Among other things, Emperor worship was stressed after Shinto was established as a state religion during the Meiji Restoration. As time went on, Shinto was used increasingly in the promotion of nationalist sentiment. In 1890, the Imperial Rescript on Education was passed, under which students were required to ritually recite its oath to offer themselves "courageously to the State" as well as protect the Imperial family. The ultimate offering was to give up one’s life. It was an honor to die for Japan and the Emperor. Axell and Kase pointed out: "The fact is that innumerable soldiers, sailors and pilots were determined to die, to become eirei, that is ‘guardian spirits’ of the country. [...] Many Japanese felt that to be enshrined at Yasukuni was a special honour because the Emperor twice a year visited the shrine to pay homage. Yasukuni is the only shrine, deifying common men, which the Emperor would visit to pay his respects".[26] Young Japanese people were indoctrinated from an earliest age with these ideals.

I would say that the 9-11 hijackers were "more" religious - or, more passionate - about their cause, but to say that the Japanese didn't fly suicide missions for any religious reason is not accurate.    

Quote
The only reason that one could indict Islam for the attacks is if it specifically compelled them to act.  They had a variety of reasons, and while probably the defense of Islam was one of them, that doesn't make the religion itself dangerous.  Any religion can make people do damn-fool things.

I didn't "indict Islam" or say that Islam is dangerous.  What I said is that the hijackers used Islam as the reasoning for what they did.    

Quote
Very similar to what I just explained, Rudolph denies that Christianity compelled him to act.  The thing is, much like the hijackers, he was convinced that the Big Guy would take care of him because he was doing God's work, protecting the precious little lambs from being slaughtered.  

Well, I never heard about anyone complaining about Christian churches being built in the areas that be bombed.  Did you?
You're making my point. 

Emperor worship.  Nationalist sentiment.  Oaths to offer themselves "courageously to the state, as well as to protect the imperial family."  Honor to die for Japan and the Emperor.  "Guardian spirits of the country."  Enshrined where the Emperor would pay them a visit. 

None of these reasons are directly related to Shintoism.  Shintoism was merely a bonus and a convenient means of getting the people riled up.  If some people use religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or Pastafarianism to convince the simpleminded to do something naughty, it's not the religion that's to blame.  Eric Rudolph blew shit up, and while he wasn't acting on the behalf of God or scripture, he does view himself as blessed.  None of these are different than the Muslims currently deflowering their virgins. 

Quote
Quote
I didn't "indict Islam" or say that Islam is dangerous.  What I said is that the hijackers used Islam as the reasoning for what they did. 
Saying that the community center/mosque shouldn't be built because it is a symbol of Islam and [allegedly] the reason behind the attack is an indictment of Islam.  And again, there's a huge difference between a reason and a justification.


Well, I never heard about anyone complaining about Christian churches being built in the areas that be bombed.  Did you?
That's my whole point.  Nobody cares about the Christian maniac because he's a maniac and not a christian.  People get high and mighty about Muslim maniacs because they're Muslims; not maniacs. 
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #220 on: September 06, 2010, 10:43:06 PM »
Everyone who opposes this 1.) does not have a single Muslim friend and 2.) has probably never met-- actually met, i.e., "gotten to know" a Muslim in their entire life.

Seriously.

I can't imagine how anyone who's ever known and learned to befriend a single Muslim person could allow themselves to foster such principled hatred and discrimination against an entire group of people. Unfortunately, I've learned to expect this kind of hatred SnakeEyes is espousing from the anti-rational side of the right-- and the left.

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #221 on: September 07, 2010, 04:04:01 AM »
Isn't a "prayer center" just a mosque?  I mean, I consider a chapel in a hospital to be a church, just a very small church. 
I'm not familiar with the terminology "prayer center" and it isn't what I used.  I used "prayer room," which is what will be in this community center.  And no, it isn't a mosque.  If you consider a chapel in a hospital to be a church, then you're just wrong.  Not sure what else to say on that front.
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Offline zerogravityfat

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #222 on: September 07, 2010, 06:28:03 AM »
I think whether it's a cultural center or mosque is not the issue for the opposers, the main issue would be that it is a location for extremists to gather. there is no difference between the two for a group to gather, though i'd think it would be a stupid location for a gathering to begin with as far as easy surveillance would go hahaha.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #223 on: September 07, 2010, 01:29:50 PM »
Haha why would they gather in the most obvious place? I'm sure a bunch of extremists would try to get together somewhere, you know, secret.

Offline Adami

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #224 on: September 07, 2010, 03:25:28 PM »
I think whether it's a cultural center or mosque is not the issue for the opposers, the main issue would be that it is a location for extremists to gather. there is no difference between the two for a group to gather, though i'd think it would be a stupid location for a gathering to begin with as far as easy surveillance would go hahaha.

I doubt the opposers have even give thought to the idea that extremists will gather there. They hate it because it is muslim, and muslims killed some americans a while ago.
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Offline Progmetty

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #225 on: September 07, 2010, 10:01:11 PM »
I don't remember if I posted in this thread or not but I think the idea is incredibly stupid and pointlessly provocative, I have no doubt in my mind that Islam had nothing to do with 9/11 but you have to consider the feelings of the average Joe, the street man, this guy was told by the media that the evil people with beards who live on the other side of the world killed 3000 of his fellow Americans and want to kill more because they hate that we're so hip and free, we can't ignore what he feels just because he's stupid, uneducated or not well-read, he's human and occupies space and builds up rage that can explode anytime, so the claim that "oh the opposers are ignorant" shouldn't really register as a "Go ahead" for this project, most of us are ignorant about something.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #226 on: September 07, 2010, 10:03:20 PM »
metty: Too cool for periods.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #227 on: September 07, 2010, 11:38:32 PM »
:lol
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline Adami

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #228 on: September 07, 2010, 11:39:29 PM »
:lol

Don't laugh, he just called you a post menopausal woman.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #229 on: September 07, 2010, 11:41:29 PM »
Metty, you're not allowed to post in other topics until you finish the frontman survivor.

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #230 on: September 07, 2010, 11:56:27 PM »
heh good idea.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #231 on: September 08, 2010, 09:43:06 AM »
BTW, this community center will also have Christian and Jewish prayer rooms.
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Offline soundgarden

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #232 on: September 08, 2010, 10:16:13 AM »
BTW, this community center will also have Christian and Jewish prayer rooms.

what about an atheist prayer room!  man, the discrimination  >:(

(or maybe that room is the pool, in that case yay!)

Offline Adami

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #233 on: September 08, 2010, 10:19:09 AM »
BTW, this community center will also have Christian and Jewish prayer rooms.

That only matters if the christian prayer room is bigger than the other two.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #234 on: September 08, 2010, 10:27:30 AM »
BTW, this community center will also have Christian and Jewish prayer rooms.

Why does that matter?
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Offline soundgarden

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #235 on: September 08, 2010, 10:40:18 AM »
BTW, this community center will also have Christian and Jewish prayer rooms.

Why does that matter?

It doesn't, but most naysayers are focusing on the fact that it has a Muslim prayer room.  It would be nice to get this fact in the limelight (nugget!) to silence, or at least, simmer the protesters.  They can stop calling it a Mosque.  Semantics, sadly, are such a big part of debates these days.

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #236 on: September 08, 2010, 10:47:23 AM »
BTW, this community center will also have Christian and Jewish prayer rooms.

Why does that matter?

Because having a synagogue in downtown New York is insensitive to those who have suffered from pastrami sandwiches.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #237 on: September 08, 2010, 10:48:58 AM »
BTW, this community center will also have Christian and Jewish prayer rooms.

Why does that matter?

Because having a synagogue in downtown New York is insensitive to those who have suffered from pastrami sandwiches.

And having a church there is insensitive because clearly muslims stole the idea of god from the christians, who first came up with it.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #238 on: September 08, 2010, 12:23:49 PM »
BTW, this community center will also have Christian and Jewish prayer rooms.

Why does that matter?
Actually, I suspect that the inclusion of other faiths would, by definition, prevent it from actually being a mosque. 
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Offline yeshaberto

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #239 on: September 08, 2010, 12:26:19 PM »
yeah, i doubt a true mosque would go for the faith inclusion

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #240 on: September 08, 2010, 05:14:12 PM »
BTW, this community center will also have Christian and Jewish prayer rooms.

Why does that matter?
Actually, I suspect that the inclusion of other faiths would, by definition, prevent it from actually being a mosque. 
This, although it already wasn't really a mosque.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #241 on: September 08, 2010, 06:23:18 PM »
But I'm not sure how that would make a difference to a good many of the people who object to this.
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Offline ehra

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #242 on: September 08, 2010, 07:25:57 PM »
It wouldn't, but then again what would?

Offline El Barto

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #243 on: September 08, 2010, 07:42:44 PM »
But I'm not sure how that would make a difference to a good many of the people who object to this.
The majority of people who object to this don't give a shit what it is;  only that it's Islamic.  Akhmed's Apple Pie and Ice Cream Parlor wouldn't be welcome in down town right now.
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Offline ainamotore

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Re: Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero
« Reply #244 on: September 09, 2010, 01:57:18 PM »
I think we have to stop worrying about people's feelings. People can "feel" whatever they want as long as they don't do anything illegal. The mosque cannot be stopped in a free society. If they have the dough and meet the zoning ordinance, they must be allowed to build. The average "Joe's" feelings be damned. Freedom is more important than feelings.