Islamic community center to go up near New York's ground zero

[Seventh Son]

I would say even more than reasoning and complex thought, education simply exposes you to a lot of different ideas, and it shows you that what you think as the right thing is not necessarily the only option, and that the other options can equally as valid to other people.

rumborak

I agree with this. But at the same time, I do think that if someone is racist, they probably haven't been educated at all 

Basically I'm reiterating the same thing you're saying. 

[El Barto]

I would say even more than reasoning and complex thought, education simply exposes you to a lot of different ideas, and it shows you that what you think as the right thing is not necessarily the only option, and that the other options can equally as valid to other people.

rumborak

Yeah, I'd consider that idea a fine example of the complex thought that I was referring to.  The ability to go outside of one's own perspective isn't exactly common among the simple-folk. 


Upon further consideration, I suppose that racism actually would be more prevalent amongst the uneducated.  It's basically just another example of binary thinking.  If you can boil a problem down to something as big and obvious as race, then the subtler and more complicated factors merely get in the way. 

[hefdaddy42]

I think that all politicians should shut up about it.  It's not a matter of government or public policy whatsoever. 

[SnakeEyes]

I didn't read this entire thread (and, I'm not going to), so this point might have already been made.  If it has, well, sorry.  

They obviously have the 'right' to build the mosque.  As far as I know, they have the Constitutional right to do it.  However, there's a difference between, "constitutional" and, "ethical."  I have the 'right' to do a lot of things.  It doesn't mean I SHOULD do those things.  This is my opinion here - are there NO other places in NYC that this place could be built?  I mean, really?  GROUND ZERO?  That's the ONLY place that a freaking MOSQUE can be built?  Really?  

I understand that, "not all Muslims are maniacs" and, "not all of them are terrorists."  I get that.  But, it really doesn't matter.  The people who did it - i.e., the hijackers - SAID they were Muslims.  So, the fact that there's a MOSQUE there - or, the type of place that the HIJACKERS went to worship - is just a wee bit insensitive; not only to the families of those who died, but to all Americans, in general.  In my opinion, they could find another damn place to build the Mosque.  What's the big deal?  They seem to be fighting pretty hard over it for a reason!  

Also, one point that a lot of people don't bring up is that Muslims expect everyone to be sensitive to them, but they don't have to respect or adhere to anyone else.  Example:  Muslim woman works at Disney Land for two years.  Once she becomes a citizen, she sues them because she wants to start wearing her Islamic garments and they refuse, even though a) she didn't wear that stuff for two years and b) she signed a contract with a dress code for Disney employees.  So, basically - if a woman went to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or someplace like that, she'd HAVE to wear all that stuff, but over here, THEY can sue our private companies even though they sign contracts saying they have to adhere to the dress code.  Oh, okay.  

[SnakeEyes]

Oh, then there's the whole, "everyone in the world has wronged the Muslims and therefore everyone needs to pay for eternity because, well, the Muslims were wronged," even though Muslims have done just as much of that stuff to other people as other people have done to them.  But, I won't get into that here. 

[Adami]

It would have been helpful to read the thread, but I'll sum it up.


1. It's not a mosque, it's a community center
2. It's blocks away from ground zero.

[El Barto]

3.  Islam was merely a characteristic of the attackers; not their motivation.
4.  The hallowed ground thing is silly and overblown.

[SnakeEyes]

1. It's not a mosque, it's a community center

I have been reading it as a, "mosque" from every news source that has mentioned the story, so that's why I called it that.  After I read your post, I looked it up.  It's a community center that includes as mosque.

2. It's blocks away from ground zero.

Still close enough to be insensitive. 

3.  Islam was merely a characteristic of the attackers; not their motivation.

Eh, I'm gonna have to disagree with this.  Their motivation was that, "the west has persecuted Islam."  If you read all the stuff they said in the lead up to September 11th, it was all religious reasons.  They believed that, by killing themselves, they were getting rewarded in the afterlife.  How is that not a motivation? 

4.  The hallowed ground thing is silly and overblown.

Just so I understand your point, you're saying that, when people call Ground Zero, "hallowed ground," it is silly and overblown?  I think calling it hallowed ground is kind of melodramatic.  I just call it insensitive. 

[Adami]

I don't think they should have to be that sensitive.

[SnakeEyes]

Well, we have to be sensitive toward them.  So, why shouldn't they have to be sensitive toward us?

[Adami]

Well, we have to be sensitive toward them.  So, why shouldn't they have to be sensitive toward us?

Telling them that they're not allowed to build a community center is not being sensitive.

[SnakeEyes]

No one said they can't do it.  People are saying they shouldn't do it.  They, on the other hand, tell people that they can't make cartoons parodying Muslims without getting blown up or stabbed in the middle of the street. 

[Adami]

No one said they can't do it.  People are saying they shouldn't do it.  They, on the other hand, tell people that they can't make cartoons parodying Muslims without getting blown up or stabbed in the middle of the street. 

No, they're not.

[orcus116]

I still want to know how far away something like this needs to be to not be insensitive. What block does the Sphere of Mockery end?

[Sigz]

No one said they can't do it.  People are saying they shouldn't do it.  They, on the other hand, tell people that they can't make cartoons parodying Muslims without getting blown up or stabbed in the middle of the street. 

No, they're not.

Newt Gingrich suggested that the federal gov't make the area a 'battlefield memorial' to prevent the mosque from being built, and that the city council stall the bureaucracy of it's construction for years. Yeah, people are trying to stop it from being built, not just saying they shouldn't do it.

[SnakeEyes]

Newt Gingrich suggested that the federal gov't make the area a 'battlefield memorial' to prevent the mosque from being built, and that the city council stall the bureaucracy of it's construction for years. Yeah, people are trying to stop it from being built, not just saying they shouldn't do it.

Okay, that's fine, although a little different than outright saying that they, "can't" build it there.  At least he's trying to do it through congress or through the attorney general.  

edit..

And, I'm certainly not saying they can't do it, either.  I just think they shouldn't.  

[SnakeEyes]

I still want to know how far away something like this needs to be to not be insensitive. What block does the Sphere of Mockery end?

You don't think that this one is just completely obvious?  I agree that some people are too sensitive with certain things.... but, this one is just a no brainer in my opinion. 

[Perpetual Change]

I don't think it's obvious. How many blocks away does it need to be to appease SnakeEyes?

[hefdaddy42]

I can't believe we are having to go through all of this again just because

I didn't read this entire thread (and, I'm not going to)

[ehra]

No one said they can't do it.  People are saying they shouldn't do it.  They, on the other hand, tell people that they can't make cartoons parodying Muslims without getting blown up or stabbed in the middle of the street. 

All Muslims are really the same 10 people wearing convincing disguises.

[SnakeEyes]

hef - you're right, that was stupid of me to reply without reading the whole thread and also to say that I wasn't going to.  BUT, I did just read through the whole thing annnnnd..... well.... no one made the points I made, sooooo.... I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say, "we have to go through this again...." when no one made the points I made in the first place?

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I don't think it's obvious. How many blocks away does it need to be to appease SnakeEyes?

[antigoon]

Just read the whole thread. The opposition to this is sickening; I'm glad most of us are for it. Oh, and I'm from New York. My father was down there when it happened.

[Seventh Son]

1. It's not a mosque, it's a community center

I have been reading it as a, "mosque" from every news source that has mentioned the story, so that's why I called it that.  After I read your post, I looked it up.  It's a community center that includes as mosque.

2. It's blocks away from ground zero.

Still close enough to be insensitive. 

3.  Islam was merely a characteristic of the attackers; not their motivation.

Eh, I'm gonna have to disagree with this.  Their motivation was that, "the west has persecuted Islam."  If you read all the stuff they said in the lead up to September 11th, it was all religious reasons.  They believed that, by killing themselves, they were getting rewarded in the afterlife.  How is that not a motivation? 

4.  The hallowed ground thing is silly and overblown.

Just so I understand your point, you're saying that, when people call Ground Zero, "hallowed ground," it is silly and overblown?  I think calling it hallowed ground is kind of melodramatic.  I just call it insensitive. 

1. St. Mary's hospital is a church then.
2. How far away does it have to be? Should we just ban muslims from NYC?
3. ITT: There are no such things as patriotic muslims.
4. Its been nearly a decade. I know I'm coming off as a jerk saying this, but I think its time to get over it.

[El Barto]

hef - you're right, that was stupid of me to reply without reading the whole thread and also to say that I wasn't going to.  BUT, I did just read through the whole thing annnnnd..... well.... no one made the points I made, sooooo.... I'm not exactly sure what you mean when you say, "we have to go through this again...." when no one made the points I made in the first place?

I just re-read your OP, and every point was actually addressed. 

As we're figuring out, it doesn't matter where they build it, it's the symbol itself that get's people's panties in a bunch.  If they agreed to move it another 2 blocks away, people would still object because now it's associated with "America's National Tragedy."

I understand that, "not all Muslims are maniacs" and, "not all of them are terrorists."  I get that.  But, it really doesn't matter.  The people who did it - i.e., the hijackers - SAID they were Muslims.

So all that matters is the religion of the bad-guy?  Why haven't we gotten riled up about Christian churches being built in the vicinity of Centennial Park in Atlanta.  It was also pointed out that there is a Shinto shrine in the vicinity of Pearl Harbor, and the Pearl Harbor memorial chapel hosts a Shinto service.  This is nothing but bigotry. 

As for the last part, it seems pretty pointless and unrelated, so I'm not sure there's any need to reply to it.  However, I suggested that Muslims actually tend to be quite respectful of other religions, they're just fanatically protective of their own.  Christians and Jews don't have to worry about getting stabbed by drunken art students in Iran. 

[Perpetual Change]

I've really been trying to boil what SnakeEyes is saying down, and I think this is the best I can do.

"It's okay for 'us' (I guess, assuming that we're all white Christians) to be bigoted towards Muslims, because the majority of them are bigoted toward us."

I really fear the implications this kind of thinking could when applied to other race related issues.

[SnakeEyes]

I just re-read your OP, and every point was actually addressed.

I read the whole thread and I didn't see anyone address this particular point (the bolded part in particular):

Also, one point that a lot of people don't bring up is that Muslims expect everyone to be sensitive to them, but they don't have to respect or adhere to anyone else.  Example:  Muslim woman works at Disney Land for two years.  Once she becomes a citizen, she sues them because she wants to start wearing her Islamic garments and they refuse, even though a) she didn't wear that stuff for two years and b) she signed a contract with a dress code for Disney employees.  So, basically - if a woman went to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or someplace like that, she'd HAVE to wear all that stuff, but over here, THEY can sue our private companies even though they sign contracts saying they have to adhere to the dress code.  Oh, okay.

Not to argue with you or anything because I could have missed it, obviously, but could you show me where someone addressed this?  

As we're figuring out, it doesn't matter where they build it, it's the symbol itself that get's people's panties in a bunch.  If they agreed to move it another 2 blocks away, people would still object because now it's associated with "America's National Tragedy."

Well, yeah, actually it does matter.  There are mosques all around NYC - NOT near Ground Zero.  I don't see anyone complaining about them or calling for them to be torn down.  Sometimes, there isn't a specific answer to something.  It's like saying, "how many cigarettes does it actually take to get cancer?"  Who the hell knows?  Does it mean that cigarettes aren't bad for you just because you can't determine an exact number of how many it would take to kill you?  

Well, that's kind of what this situation is like.  I can't tell you "how far" would be "far enough away."  It's not the distance, it's the attitude, the blatant disregard for the feelings of those who were affected.  They simply don't care.  If they were like, "you know, we didn't realize how much this would offend people - maybe we can move somewhere else," I think a lot of people would be more open to it.  But, there's a certain stubborness and arrogance about it that's just disrespectful.  

So all that matters is the religion of the bad-guy?  Why haven't we gotten riled up about Christian churches being built in the vicinity of Centennial Park in Atlanta.  It was also pointed out that there is a Shinto shrine in the vicinity of Pearl Harbor, and the Pearl Harbor memorial chapel hosts a Shinto service.  This is nothing but bigotry.  

No, it's not 'bigotry.'  To call it bigotry is ignorance.  Your point of Christian churches and the park in Atlanta - I have no idea what you're referring to there.  Feel free to explain, I'll listen.  

With Pearl Harbor, I can't agree with that.  Remember that Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor BECAUSE of a religious ideology as the people who attacked us on 9-11 did.  It was for political reasons.  Plus, Japan has apologized for Pearl Harbor and they have been our friends for many decades.  When you think of Pearl Harbor, you don't think of "Shinto," you think, "Japanese government/ political reasons."  A religious shrine based on what they believe is kind of irrelevant to anything, especially beacuse they expressed remorse for Pearl Harbor.  

As for the last part, it seems pretty pointless and unrelated, so I'm not sure there's any need to reply to it.  However, I suggested that Muslims actually tend to be quite respectful of other religions, they're just fanatically protective of their own.  Christians and Jews don't have to worry about getting stabbed by drunken art students in Iran.  

You must have missed all that Muslim violence a couple of years ago when the cartoonist made some pictures mocking Islam and they all got pissed off, flooded the streets and violently protested it because they were offended.  Or, the guy who WAS stabbed in the middle of the street because he did something that was critical of Islam.  

[j]

So all that matters is the religion of the bad-guy?  Why haven't we gotten riled up about Christian churches being built in the vicinity of Centennial Park in Atlanta.  It was also pointed out that there is a Shinto shrine in the vicinity of Pearl Harbor, and the Pearl Harbor memorial chapel hosts a Shinto service.  This is nothing but bigotry.  

No, it's not 'bigotry.'  To call it bigotry is ignorance.  Your point of Christian churches and the park in Atlanta - I have no idea what you're referring to there.  Feel free to explain, I'll listen.  

With Pearl Harbor, I can't agree with that.  Remember that Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor BECAUSE of a religious ideology as the people who attacked us on 9-11 did.  It was for political reasons.  Plus, Japan has apologized for Pearl Harbor and they have been our friends for many decades.  When you think of Pearl Harbor, you don't think of "Shinto," you think, "Japanese government/ political reasons."  A religious shrine based on what they believe is kind of irrelevant to anything, especially beacuse they expressed remorse for Pearl Harbor.  

I think Barto's point, which he touched on a page or two ago, is that whatever people say, we don't actually *know* what their motivation is for their actions.  The root of the 9/11 attacks was obviously at least partially political in nature; maybe Islam was more of a justification than a core motivator.  I think it's a legitimate point, although I don't think the examples he used in the above post are particularly good or relevant.

-J

[SnakeEyes]

Well, we know what they have said.  That's what I'm going by.  And, based on what we know, it's more religious than anything. 

[El Barto]

I was referring to Christian terrorist Eric Rudolph who blew up some people at the Summer Olympics in Atlanta.   He used the Bible to justify his acts, too.  Of course, as was stated earlier in the thread, Christian maniacs that blow people up only act because they're maniacs.  Muslim maniacs only attack because of Islam.  Quite hypocritical, if you ask me.

And who would you expect to apologize for 911.  It's pretty easy for a government to crank out apologies left and right (except ours), but these guys weren't affiliated with any government.  To the best of my knowledge, the Muslims don't have a Pope-like figure to represent them.  Your run of the mill Imam doesn't have anything to apologize for, but they've been pretty outspoken about condemning the acts. 

You must have missed all that Muslim violence a couple of years ago when the cartoonist made some pictures mocking Islam and they all got pissed off, flooded the streets and violently protested it because they were offended.  Or, the guy who WAS stabbed in the middle of the street because he did something that was critical of Islam. 

I'm very familiar with it, and I don't see how it had anything to do with disrespecting other religions.  As I said earlier, the Muslims are very tolerant of other religions, they just get fanatically defensive about their own.  Frankly, they seem to be 1000 times more respectful of Christianity than Christians are to them. 

The root of the 9/11 attacks was obviously at least partially political in nature; maybe Islam was more of a justification than a core motivator.  I think it's a legitimate point, although I don't think the examples he used in the above post are particularly good or relevant.

-J

Why is Eric Rudolph not a reasonable example?

[j]

The root of the 9/11 attacks was obviously at least partially political in nature; maybe Islam was more of a justification than a core motivator.  I think it's a legitimate point, although I don't think the examples he used in the above post are particularly good or relevant.

-J

Why is Eric Rudolph not a reasonable example?

He is; I only saw the Pearl Harbor one, my bad.  Which I don't think is a good comparison because Shintoism wasn't in any way involved in that scenario.  Although on second thought, you could argue that its influence helped shape modern Japanese political thought and ideology, which led to the actions, etc.

-J

[orcus116]

Well, that's kind of what this situation is like.  I can't tell you "how far" would be "far enough away."  It's not the distance, it's the attitude, the blatant disregard for the feelings of those who were affected.  They simply don't care.  If they were like, "you know, we didn't realize how much this would offend people - maybe we can move somewhere else," I think a lot of people would be more open to it.  But, there's a certain stubborness and arrogance about it that's just disrespectful.  

I don't think they come across as arrogant and stubborn so much as the people with your exact line of thinking are completely overreacting. They're not seen as stubborn and arrogant because they are stubborn and arrogant, they're seen that way because they bought some property and when they laid out what they wanted to build there people freaked and called them insensitive when I'm almost positive they had no ill intent. This attitude and blatant disregard doesn't actually exist, it's manufactured inside the mind of someone who jumps to ridiculous conclusions without consulting, you know, logic.

[hefdaddy42]

There are mosques all around NYC - NOT near Ground Zero.

Yes there are.  There are mosques closer to Ground Zero than this will be.  There are also strip joints closer to Ground Zero than this will be.  Also, this is not a mosque, and it doesn't contain a mosque - it contains a prayer room.

And also, it isn't at Ground Zero.  It is several blocks and around a corner from Ground Zero - you can't even see either location from the other.

So again, SE, how many blocks away is close enough to appease you?

[SnakeEyes]

I don't think they come across as arrogant and stubborn so much as the people with your exact line of thinking are completely overreacting. They're not seen as stubborn and arrogant because they are stubborn and arrogant, they're seen that way because they bought some property and when they laid out what they wanted to build there people freaked and called them insensitive when I'm almost positive they had no ill intent. This attitude and blatant disregard doesn't actually exist, it's manufactured inside the mind of someone who jumps to ridiculous conclusions without consulting, you know, logic.

The only thing I will say in response to this is that Muslims are never the stubborn, arrogant ones.  They're always in the right.  Americans, on the other hand, are always the arrogant ones.  If you choose to respond to this, that's fine, but it seems like one of those things that's kind of pointless to debate.  You see it one way, I see it another way - I don't know how productive it is to argue about it.  But, feel free if you wish. 

Yes there are.  There are mosques closer to Ground Zero than this will be.

From what I read in a few articles, the closest mosque to Ground Zero is twelve blocks away, which is pretty far, and has already been there for a while (before September 11th, I would imagine).  What would really matter, though, was whether it was built AFTER September 11th and I really don't think there have been any mosques built near Ground Zero after that day.   

There are also strip joints closer to Ground Zero than this will be.

Was it strippers that hijacked the planes and flew them into the WTC? 

Also, this is not a mosque, and it doesn't contain a mosque - it contains a prayer room.

Isn't a "prayer center" just a mosque?  I mean, I consider a chapel in a hospital to be a church, just a very small church. 

And also, it isn't at Ground Zero.  It is several blocks and around a corner from Ground Zero - you can't even see either location from the other.

It's close enough that debris from the attacks HIT the building that will be the home of this new Islamic establishment.  Some pictures:



And:

So again, SE, how many blocks away is close enough to appease you?

I have already replied to this in a previous post - it's only a few posts back, in case you care to read it. 

[ehra]

What would really matter, though, was whether it was built AFTER September 11th and I really don't think there have been any mosques built near Ground Zero after that day.    
----
Was it strippers that hijacked the planes and flew them into the WTC?  

What do these have to do with Ground Zero being "hallowed ground"?

Either the presence of these things are insensitive or "disrespectful" or not.