Steven Wilson + Mikael Akerfeldt project (Mike Portnoy?)

[King Postwhore]

PT did step it up on The Incident, which was a fairly sizable upgrade over the very good Fear of a Blank Planet.  And while Black Clouds and Silver Linings might not been on the level of DT's best three or four records, it was still a big upgrade over everything they had done since 2002, so I think both bands are in a good place right now, relatively speaking.  You can't expect bands to keep releasing their best album this deep into their careers.  But both bands have been around for roughly 20 years now, and both of their newest albums are in the upper half of their respective catalogs, if you ask me.

This.  Besides, I don't want my bands to stay the same.  Leave that to AC/DC.

[KevShmev]

DT has done grunge?  Haha, that's a good one.

Yeah, I think so. I grew up listening to those bands. DT borrowed just as much from those bands in the 90s as they borrowed from Tool and Radiohead in the late 90s and 00s and Muse and such on the last few albums.  

Sorry, but I don't see that at all.  I think that was an overreaction by many to any band doing hard rocking or heavy stuff in the 90s.  It was like, "Oh, grunge is the popular fad subgere right now, so any band that is doing hard rock riffs must be doing grunge."  I have seen some say that about Rush's 90s material, which I also find to be absurd.  What DT songs are grunge, if I may ask?  I would submit that the hardest and heaviest riffs DT did in the 90s were influenced by their original influences - Metallica, Rush, Iron Maiden, etc.

[ZBomber]

DT has done grunge?  Haha, that's a good one.

Yeah, I think so. I grew up listening to those bands. DT borrowed just as much from those bands in the 90s as they borrowed from Tool and Radiohead in the late 90s and 00s and Muse and such on the last few albums.  

And maybe I'm being tough on PT by saying they're getting progressively worse. The Incident is a step up from Fear, but Fear is far from good.

I think a lot of 90s bands incorporated "grunge elements" into their music... same with Rush on Counterparts. The music itself is not grunge, but you can hear a little bit of the 90's grunge sound in some of the songs of Awake or Counterparts.

[Zantera]

TI was a step down from FOABP imo.
I really loved it at first, but as i said, it didn't come close in the end to match the awesomeness of albums like Fear of a Blank Planet, Signify or Up the Downstair for example.
The song-cycle is great, but i don't think the songs individually can compete with older stuff.
The only songs on it, that i think works good individually are "Time Flies" and "I Drive the Hearse", the rest of the song-cycle is pretty dull, EXCEPT for when listening to the whole thing.
But as for FOABP, it's great overall, but the songs also work very well individually.
Lots of songs on TI get's loads of praise, but i think songs like "The Blind House", "Drawing the Line" and "Octane Twisted" (just to name a few) are pretty mediocre by PT-standards.
CD2 is very solid though, i prefer it over the first disc.

Overall, i'd say my biggest problem with the album is the fact that it doesn't really bring anything new to the table.
Surely you can point out the fact that they did a 55 min song-cycle (which was new), or the song-writing skill that has increased a lot, but if you look at it from a neutral point of view, it's like a "best of PT".
The metal-parts are heavier then earlier, the melodies are catchier, but overall it's still a PT-sound we're familiar with, hopefully PT will do something completely new (soundwise) next time, because even though i don't dislike their current sound, i still like evolution.
And also, i'm no 'The Incident-hater' by any means, i think it's a pretty awesome album.
'Just' awesome by PT-standards though. :>

BC&SL was great, but i would prefer to see their next album a bit more mixed between shorter/longer songs, i think it's a good balance if only one or two songs have the epic-length.

[Perpetual Change]

DT has done grunge?  Haha, that's a good one.

Yeah, I think so. I grew up listening to those bands. DT borrowed just as much from those bands in the 90s as they borrowed from Tool and Radiohead in the late 90s and 00s and Muse and such on the last few albums.  

Sorry, but I don't see that at all.  I think that was an overreaction by many to any band doing hard rocking or heavy stuff in the 90s.  It was like, "Oh, grunge is the popular fad subgere right now, so any band that is doing hard rock riffs must be doing grunge."  I have seen some say that about Rush's 90s material, which I also find to be absurd.  What DT songs are grunge, if I may ask?  I would submit that the hardest and heaviest riffs DT did in the 90s were influenced by their original influences - Metallica, Rush, Iron Maiden, etc.

Grunge is a hard genre to pin down, because none of the grunge bands really sound too much like each other, but I always thought Caught in a Web, Lie, Burning My Soul and New Millenium had some pretty strong grunge influences showing.  Not surprising at all they did that grunge medley with CIAW.

And the grunge bands were metal bands that were just heavier and more downtrodden.  I think people give grunge way too much credit for being different than metal when, really, it was just an attitude change.  The change of attitude in DT from Images to Awake is pretty noticeable.  Not only that, but John says on the commentary during the Lie video that they were fully into their grunge phase at that point.  

[King Postwhore]

It wasn't that they took the style of grunge but the recording stlye of the times.  Dry vocals, less solo's, louder volumes, less separation in the instruments.  That happens to every band that last 30 some odd years.

Rush for example, 70's, extended songs, 80's digital sounding albums with more keyboards, 90's dryer sound ect.

[Pirate]

If SW releases another TSMSW I'll be 

[skydivingninja]

PC if I wanted to dissect every album song by song it would take forever.  That's why I simplified it to what the album as a whole felt like.  Maybe with 6DoiT I could have put "some experimentation," but that's it.  Because "Home" has that sitar-sounding intro doesn't mean Scenes as a whole is an "eastern" sounding album, just like how "Hatesong" and "Russia on Ice" have those heavy sections, but they don't make LBS metal.

Now I'm not trying to say I would be opposed to Mike drumming for this.  It would get him out of his comfort zone (which he has been in with each of those side projects), and really get some creative juices flowing for the next DT album.  But saying MP/DT explore radically different styles the way PT has is just crazy.

[hefdaddy42]

DT has done grunge?  Haha, that's a good one.

Yeah, I think so. I grew up listening to those bands. DT borrowed just as much from those bands in the 90s as they borrowed from Tool and Radiohead in the late 90s and 00s and Muse and such on the last few albums.  

Sorry, but I don't see that at all.  I think that was an overreaction by many to any band doing hard rocking or heavy stuff in the 90s.  It was like, "Oh, grunge is the popular fad subgere right now, so any band that is doing hard rock riffs must be doing grunge."  I have seen some say that about Rush's 90s material, which I also find to be absurd.  What DT songs are grunge, if I may ask?  I would submit that the hardest and heaviest riffs DT did in the 90s were influenced by their original influences - Metallica, Rush, Iron Maiden, etc.

Grunge is a hard genre to pin down, because none of the grunge bands really sound too much like each other, but I always thought Caught in a Web, Lie, Burning My Soul and New Millenium had some pretty strong grunge influences showing.  Not surprising at all they did that grunge medley with CIAW.

And the grunge bands were metal bands that were just heavier and more downtrodden.  I think people give grunge way too much credit for being different than metal when, really, it was just an attitude change.  The change of attitude in DT from Images to Awake is pretty noticeable.  Not only that, but John says on the commentary during the Lie video that they were fully into their grunge phase at that point.  

He was joking.

There is no grunge influence on Awake.  I have no idea what you're talking about.  "That grunge medley with CIAW" was industrial, not grunge.  If anything, DT was the anti-grunge; they could play their instruments.

[ReaperKK]

They are very talented musicans and writers, I just hope they find a good vocalist to work with 

This, if Akerfeldt keeps the RORORORO out of this I'll be happy.

[Perpetual Change]

There is no grunge influence on Awake.  I have no idea what you're talking about.  "That grunge medley with CIAW" was industrial, not grunge.  If anything, DT was the anti-grunge; they could play their instruments.

Alice in Chains, (early) Tool, and Soundgarden were part of grunge. Nine Inch Nails is the only band in that medley remotely resembling electronica. I have no reason to believe John was joking.  I have no idea what you're talking about.

[KevShmev]

There is no grunge influence on Awake.  I have no idea what you're talking about. 

QFT.  And I have to think that Petrucci was being sarcastic when he said that, as I doubt anyone actually thinks DT ever had a grunge phase (even if you think that a supposed grunge influence actually crept its way into their music).  Sorry, PC, but I think you are way off base here.

[hefdaddy42]

There is no grunge influence on Awake.  I have no idea what you're talking about.  "That grunge medley with CIAW" was industrial, not grunge.  If anything, DT was the anti-grunge; they could play their instruments.

Alice in Chains, (early) Tool, and Soundgarden were part of grunge. Nine Inch Nails is the only band in that medley remotely resembling electronica. I have no reason to believe John was joking.  I have no idea what you're talking about.

What are you talking about with AIC, Tool, Soundgarden, and NIN?  Are we talking about 2 different things?  Because I was talking about the reworking of CIAW to Caught in Alice's Nine-Inch Tool Garden.  That eventually became the basis of New Millenium.  That's not grunge, and if you think it is, well, you're the only one.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

To quote hefdaddy, "There is no grunge influence on Awake. I have no idea what you're talking about".

In regards to the direction Porcupine Tree is moving in, their albums have been getting gradually worse with every album since Lightbulb Sun, except for the recent rise that is The Incident. So I suppose I agree their current career trajectory is not good. But it doesn't bother me that much because every album, with the possible exception of Fear of a Blank Planet, has moments of genius.

[Perpetual Change]

There is no grunge influence on Awake.  I have no idea what you're talking about.  "That grunge medley with CIAW" was industrial, not grunge.  If anything, DT was the anti-grunge; they could play their instruments.

Alice in Chains, (early) Tool, and Soundgarden were part of grunge. Nine Inch Nails is the only band in that medley remotely resembling electronica. I have no reason to believe John was joking.  I have no idea what you're talking about.

What are you talking about with AIC, Tool, Soundgarden, and NIN?  Are we talking about 2 different things?  Because I was talking about the reworking of CIAW to Caught in Alice's Nine-Inch Tool Garden.  That eventually became the basis of New Millenium.  That's not grunge, and if you think it is, well, you're the only one.

That's just not true. Do you listen to Alice in Chains, Tool, Soundgarden, or Nine Inch Nails? Because, as someone who grew up on listening to my dad and brother's grunge records, I haven't been able to relate to anything you've said about grunge in this thread.

In regards to the direction Porcupine Tree is moving in, their albums have been getting gradually worse with every album since Lightbulb Sun, except for the recent rise that is The Incident. So I suppose I agree their current career trajectory is not good. But it doesn't bother me that much because every album, with the possible exception of Fear of a Blank Planet, has moments of genius.  

I agree except for the fact that Deadwing is the Best Them.

On another note, was listening to Duel With the Devil today. Specifically the You're Not Alone part and afterwards.  Anyone who thinks Mike is somehow less capable than Gavin needs to listen to his drumming here immediately. Start around 16:00.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Two obvious rebuttals to that argument:

1) "Duel with the Devil" is from 2001. We are not talking about 2001. We are talking about now. Portnoy, for reasons unknown, is not as good a drummer as he used to be.

2) I don't know how GH and MP stack up if we are comparing their best moments, parts, stretches, etc. But when entire albums and songs are taken into consideration, Harrison is infinitely more interesting.

[Perpetual Change]

Two obvious rebuttals to that argument:

1) "Duel with the Devil" is from 2001. We are not talking about 2001. We are talking about now. Portnoy, for reasons unknown, is not as good a drummer as he used to be.

I don't know! He seemed pretty good at playing it a couple weeks ago when I saw it 

[Global Laziness]

Portnoy, for reasons unknown, is not as good a drummer as he used to be.

What makes you say that?

[skydivingninja]

I'd say his drumming just doesn't feel as creative anymore.  I for one feel like BC&SL doesn't add anything especially new and awesome to the table drumming-wise.  Its great drumming and fits the music perfectly, don't get me wrong, but there wasn't anything breathtaking to me.  TOX might have some other reasons.  Like I've said, this problem is perfect because if he was involved in this project, I'm sure it would force him to think outside of his comfort zone, which would more than likely benefit DT in some way.

[Global Laziness]

Funny, I thought his drumming on Black Clouds was a step up from Dream Theater's previous two albums.

[Perpetual Change]

Funny, I thought his drumming on Black Clouds was a step up from Dream Theater's previous two albums.

As did I. Granted there's not a heck of a lot of room to show your range over metal, some of the fills and cymbal work on the album is fantastic.

[Nick]

Dream Theater haven't done anything new in years.

Good one, tell another.

[bout to crash]

Eh, I do feel like the new stuff lacks innovation for the most part.

[Pirate]

Okay. It's time for the member who won the the last MP-GH argument to step in.

First of all, I have no idea if it means anything to the non-drummer, but in pretty much any practicing drummer's mind, Gavin is the more capable, more exciting, more knowledgeable, more prolific drummer.

Aside from that, I think anyone can see that Gavin is more experienced, and Mike is more exciting. Gavin is more versatile and Mike is more stylized. I imagine if a drummer showed a non-drummer a clip of MP drumming, the non-drummer would say something like, "He's fast!". If he was showed a clip of GH, he'd say something like, "How the fuck did he do that?" or "What the fuck just happened?"

If you haven't heard them already and are interested in Gavin's work, I recommend his albums wih 05Ric. TO truly understand the nature of Gavin's approach to drumming, watch his DVD's.

[SPNKr]

Gavin is the more capable, more exciting, more knowledgeable, more prolific drummer.

Absolutely, I'm not a drummer but his stuff is just completely different in the music world today and before. Definitely can tell the difference with drummers like this.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Portnoy, for reasons unknown, is not as good a drummer as he used to be.

What makes you say that?

They simply do not sound as good to me. I cannot go into more detail because I do not know anything about drums.

One example I can provide however, is that on old Dream Theater albums there would always be at least one moment where, suddenly, out of nowhere, the drumming would become so awesome I would stop merely hearing them and begin listening to them, and be floored. "Lines in the Sand", "Fatal Tragedy", etc.

I cannot think of any examples like that on recent albums.

Another explanation is that my prog-ish listening is has become very limited in recent years, so the only guys I really have to compare to Portnoy are Gavin Harrison, Martin Lopez and Neal Peart, each of whom is infinitely more interesting than Portnoy. Harrison because he is simply better, Lopez because of his amazing use of double bass and jazzy style inside of the death metal genre, and Peart because... well... they don't call you the GOAT for nothing.

[Portrucci]

GH is clearly better. MP even admits he barely practices now-days, and it shows. GH is quite the opposite, with his own big kit in his own studio, he practices fairly regularly IIRC. I am a drummer, and comparing 2009 releases like OSI - Blood to DT - BC&SL, GH's drumming is infinitely more interesting. I don't think it's the complex parts either. It's the way GH can make a simple 4/4 passage sound a lot more interesting that it should be. MP doesn't really have that ability and relies heavily on odd-timed passages of the music to show off his drumming.

Regardless, I still think MP is a great drummer, and whether he does or does not work on this project will hopefully have little to no bearing on the end quality of that project.

[reneranucci]

Well, those are only opinions. Iīve always found MP much more interesting, and IMO his whole catalog surpasses Gavinīs.

[Perpetual Change]

I think there's plenty of awesome drumming going on in Black Clouds.  Just on ANtR, I can think of those cymbal fills over the riff before the vocals come in. The whole beautiful agony section. The stuff Mike is playing of that instrumental (read: not the solo) section.

[KevShmev]

Funny, I thought his drumming on Black Clouds was a step up from Dream Theater's previous two albums.

It's funny how the playing sounds so much better when the songwriting is so much better.

[ReaperKK]

This is what my buddy said about GH and MP in terms of their drumming and I completely agree.

MP is a like Stephen King, just pumping out work, some of it is great but most of it is just passable.

GH is more like a guy who writes a lot less, but when he does, it's epic and always blows you away.

[hefdaddy42]

Do you listen to Alice in Chains, Tool, Soundgarden, or Nine Inch Nails?

Not NIN so much, but the others, sure.

Because, as someone who grew up on listening to my dad and brother's grunge records, I haven't been able to relate to anything you've said about grunge in this thread.

Well, I didn't listen my dad and brother's grunge records, I listened to my own, because I was in my early twenties when all of that stuff was coming out.  I don't know anyone that ever accused Tool of being grunge other than you.  Alice In Chains was associated with grunge because they were from Seattle, but they were a lot different than the other bands with that label.  And although they did some weird industrial thing with that version of CIAW, and I know that they liked AIC because I've seen film of them soundchecking by playing "Would?", there is still no grunge influence on Awake.

[Perpetual Change]

I think Opiate and Undertow are very grungy albums; of course I admit that Tool's sound evolved way beyond the typical grunge parameters later on.  As far as Alice in Chains goes, they were just as similar as any of the other grunge bands.  Seriously. Alice and Chains are no more different from Soundgarden and Pearl Jam than those bands were different to each other-- or Nirvana.  

But great! You mentioned Would?. Now, I direct your attention to The Mirror, around the 5:30 mark.  Hear that low, rumbling bassline under the single, heavy chord being held out? It doesn't sound like Would?, but the style is undeniably similar and typically grunge. Likewise, the heavy eastern riff and tribal-sounding drumming in New Millennium is pretty grunge as is the last verse of Burning My Soul(The one that ends with, 'But I don't give a shit, No!"). Moreover, the Mirror features that heavy, sludging, low tempo riff right before John's solo. Or, how about this? Listen to You Not Me, and then listen to Soundgarden's Let Me Drown. Of course, Dream Theater add their prog elements to everything (as they do with all the genres that influence them)-- but the outside influence is definitely there!

Anyway, all these parts sound very grunge to me. Moreover, songs from Awake and afterwards sometimes feature a grungy style which Dream Theater were not known for at all before grunge became popular after the release of Images and Words.  Did DT become grunge? No. Were the influenced by it? Well, considering that John P has said so, and considering that after grunge became popular certain parts of Dream Theater songs began to feature a grunge sound, I stick by my original statement.

[Pirate]

Well, those are only opinions. Iīve always found MP much more interesting, and IMO his whole catalog surpasses Gavinīs.

What do you consider Gavin's "whole catalog"?

[SPNKr]

@ this thread.