May 20th is Everybody Draw Mohammed Day!!!

[ReaPsTA]

Another point is to show that applying Islamic law to non-Muslims is dumb and actually makes no sense.

I don't want to sound like I'm getting on the religion is lame bandwagon, but this is completely true. It's be like me expecting non-Christians to respect biblical traditions if they think it's nothing more than a collection of stories.

[Adami]

Another point is to show that applying Islamic law to non-Muslims is dumb and actually makes no sense.

I don't want to sound like I'm getting on the religion is lame bandwagon, but this is completely true. It's be like me expecting non-Christians to respect biblical traditions if they think it's nothing more than a collection of stories.

I agree, but no one is suggesting that we all go around breaking the 10 commandments just to show that we can.

[ReaPsTA]

Another point is to show that applying Islamic law to non-Muslims is dumb and actually makes no sense.

I don't want to sound like I'm getting on the religion is lame bandwagon, but this is completely true. It's be like me expecting non-Christians to respect biblical traditions if they think it's nothing more than a collection of stories.

I agree, but no one is suggesting that we all go around breaking the 10 commandments just to show that we can.

Because no one is threatening to murder anyone for doing so.

[Adami]

Another point is to show that applying Islamic law to non-Muslims is dumb and actually makes no sense.

I don't want to sound like I'm getting on the religion is lame bandwagon, but this is completely true. It's be like me expecting non-Christians to respect biblical traditions if they think it's nothing more than a collection of stories.

I agree, but no one is suggesting that we all go around breaking the 10 commandments just to show that we can.

Because no one is threatening to murder anyone for doing so.

I am threatening you with violence to have sex with women.

You better stop having sex to show me my place.

[ReaPsTA]

I am threatening you with violence to have sex with women.

You better stop having sex to show me my place.

A bunch of Buddhist monks are cowering in fear right now.

[Adami]

I am threatening you with violence to have sex with women.

You better stop having sex to show me my place.

A bunch of Buddhist monks are cowering in fear right now.

At least andy is safe.

[hefdaddy42]

Another point is to show that applying Islamic law to non-Muslims is dumb and actually makes no sense.

I don't want to sound like I'm getting on the religion is lame bandwagon, but this is completely true. It's be like me expecting non-Christians to respect biblical traditions if they think it's nothing more than a collection of stories.

I agree, but no one is suggesting that we all go around breaking the 10 commandments just to show that we can.

Because no one is threatening to murder anyone for doing so.

How many people would have to threaten violence before you would start breaking commandments in protest?

The problem isn't their rule about drawing Mohammed.  The problem is the the group of them that haven't joined the 21st century and deal with satire.  This kind of protest is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

Do what you want.  You have the right.  But again, the people who you should be targeting, the radicals, won't care - they will just get riled up about it, which they've been looking for anyway. 

[robwebster]

Tell you what, I kinda understand the point. In fact, I completely agree with the core point. We all get offended, but extremists are being complete cocks to wander in and go "no, sorry, that breaks my personal code so we can't allow anyone to do that."

Fundmentally wrong, that is. Give and take. Extremist muslims have been known to burn effigies and all that - can't know if they're the same ones, but it's definitely that kind of vein - but we all just kind of go, "okay."

There are worse things than being offended. What's the worst possible consequence of being offended? You'll be a bit disgruntled for a while, then go back to living your life as though nothing had happened. You don't contract an illness when you're offended - you're a bit peeved for a bit and then you resume your life. I'm offended that Piers Morgan is on the telly. Gravely offended. But oh well. I get over it.

And, on that note, it's not fair to expect people to change the way they live their lives to incorporate a moral code that they have absolutely no stake in. "Hey, everybody do things this way and no exceptions or I will deck you oh my god."



Buuuut... the thing is, the South Park guys are, themselves, essentially bullies. Funny bullies, I really like 'em, but this is the equivalent of bopping someone on the back of the head, then suddenly playing innocent when they turn round to reveal that actually they have a sixpack and stanley knives for teeth.

If that's how they choose to make their money, they are kind of obliged to tough out some threats. So, no. I can't give them the moral high ground here. Fair play muslim extremism - a sentence I've never before used and probably won't again.



That said, I may break out a cheeky little doodle of the M-ster if I remember. Flattering one, but it's just nice to occasionally go "look, I'm my own person."

[ack44]

 South Park does cause little incidents here and their with their offensive humor, but you could argue that in the long run it helps people recognize the stereotypes they have and to learn to get over their differences with a laugh.

[Nigerius Rex]

And also that there is a fine line between offensive humor and slitting some guys throat.

[bosk1]

And also that there is a fine line between offensive humor and slitting some guys throat.

That's almost sig-worthy.

[prog.fusion]

I know it sounds cool to say "I'm so honest I'm harsh," but your posts don't really support that that's who you are.  They only show that you haven't really read (or understood) more than a few posts in the thread and don't really understand the arguments whatsoever.

No, i honestly know that it sounds harsh when someone says what you're saying is bullshit. Im not trying to be cool, just stating that people have inconsistent views. And me not understanding the arguments? Dude, i dont think you even understand the actual issue.

Why do people(including you) show respect to this ONE SPECIFIC tenant of Islam, but no other of their religion or of any other religions? You dont eat Kosher because you are not Jewish. You dont pray to Mary because you're not Catholic. You dont believe in the Holy Trinity because you're of another religion. You dont live and structure your life according to other's beliefs and religious tenants. So why this one? Why JUST this one?

What would you say/do if some Muslims in America wanted to stone their daughters for whatever deed they did? Would you respect it, like you do the picture drawing, or have a problem with it and try to stop these horrible acts? Why should we live our lives according to someone elses religion, of which has no proof or evidence of even being true....dude, c'mon.

[bosk1]

Two issues:

1.  I agree that you can't live your life by tring to abide by every religious tenet of every set of religious beliefs simply so as not to offend.  But that misses the point here.  The point is not about that.  It's about not being disrespectful by going out of your way to do something that you wouldn't normally do that is calculated to offend.  It's a subtle difference, but at the same time, a very big one.
2.  It's not about trying not to offend the radicals that have made the threats.  It's about doing something that is calculated to offend Muslims as a whole, including the vast majority who, at least for purposes of this particular discussion, we have no beef with and have no beef with us.  

In short, to put it another way (as has been said by others in the thread already), the problem is not that anyone in this thread necessarily feels it is important to show respect for a particular tenet of Islam while hypocritically ignoring others.  The problem is that this particular protest is designed to publicly denegrate the religion as a whole by thumbing one's nose at the fact that a large number of people will be offended, and the vast majority of those people are not even the ones who are trying to "bully" the world with their threats.

You are right that I do not, for example, pray to Mary because I am not Catholic.  In fact, since you probably have not read enough P/R threads to know, I grew up in the Catholic Church and left it once I was old enough to realize that it is a complete perversion of Christianity.  I take every opportunity to discuss and oppose the practices of the Catholic Church that are anti-Christian.  But by the same token, I do not go into cathedrals and tear down or vandalize their Mary idols because that would be rude, offensive, and counterproductive to any sort of good I could possibly hope to accomplish.  To me, what we are talking about in this thread is not very different.


(And by the way, thank you for toning down the rhetoric and posting in a more constructive manner so that people can actually discuss your points)

[prog.fusion]

I never used any rhetoric, at least not intentionally. i think people just got tired of being called bullshit. my points have remained the same.

the point of many people saying that they are going to draw muhammed has nothing to do with just blatantly pissing muslims off, it has to do with freedom of expression and not being ied by the bonds of another's religious beliefs.

and you're right, a lot of people are now just going to draw it. but its only because its now seen as something they should be able to do if they want. its a limit on what one can do according to anothers beliefs and its total bullshit. i have no reason to draw muhammed, but if for some reason i end up having one, i should be able to. thats what a lot of people are angry about.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

And even more people are angry about the fact that a shit-ton of people who have no reason to draw it, now have this ridiculously false outrage over the assumption that their rights have somehow been infringed upon and there's this knee-jerk "You can't keep me down!" attitude over something that (in the grand scheme of things) is extremely miniscule and worthless to worry over.

Someone doesn't want us to do something we would never truly have a reason or desire to do, in most cases.  Because of that, we want to.  Classic "I only want it because someone else doesn't want me to have it" bit.  It all seems pretty pointless to me.

[ehra]

And even more people are angry about the fact that a shit-ton of people who have no reason to draw it, now have this ridiculously false outrage over the assumption that their rights have somehow been infringed upon and there's this knee-jerk "You can't keep me down!" attitude over something that (in the grand scheme of things) is extremely miniscule and worthless to worry over.

But then even when those people try to explain that they're not even necessarily doing it for themselves you keep throwing out these types of arguments.

Really, it's the same arguments being thrown out. There are STILL people in this thread saying it's being done "just to offend" or because we think that we personally are losing any "rights." After I've explained that those claims are flat out wrong multiple times.

But who needs to actually counter anyone's arguments when you just can go "you make great points, but I still think you're a jerk." Or claim they're doing things for reasons that aren't true.

[bosk1]

Ehra, what more are you expecting?  You've said you think it is about rights.  Others who are on the other side believe that approaching this from the standpoint that it is about rights misses the point and makes those who are in favor of the protest appear to be selfish jerks in their views on this issue.  As has been said, no one is infringing on your right to free speech and the closely-related right to protest.  Nobody.  But more than a few of us recognize that just because you have the right to do something, asserting that right may have the consequence of others thinking you are a douche, which is, speaking of rights, their right to think that.  Your right to free speech doesn't take away someone else's right to think the way you are handling yourself makes you look bad.  So, again, what is it exactly that you are looking for?

[ehra]

Ehra, what more are you expecting?  You've said you think it is about rights.  Others who are on the other side believe that approaching this from the standpoint that it is about rights misses the point and makes those who are in favor of the protest appear to be selfish jerks in their views on this issue.  As has been said, no one is infringing on your right to free speech and the closely-related right to protest.  Nobody.

And how many times have I said that it's not about my own rights but the rights of other people who have attempted and are not allowed because of fear? Quite a few times.

But more than a few of us recognize that just because you have the right to do something, asserting that right may have the consequence of others thinking you are a douche, which is, speaking of rights, their right to think that.  Your right to free speech doesn't take away someone else's right to think the way you are handling yourself makes you look bad.  So, again, what is it exactly that you are looking for?

To give actual reasons for how attempting to stand up for someone else's right to be a douche makes me a douche. Not just keep repeating "doing things just to offend people is wrong." Especially since apparently no one can actually come up with any other way for people to do so that's relevant to this situation.

[bosk1]

So, again, what is it exactly that you are looking for?

To give actual reasons for how attempting to stand up for someone else's right to be a douche makes me a douche. Not just keep repeating "doing things just to offend people is wrong."

But that is an actual reason.  The fact that you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't a valid reason.

[hefdaddy42]

So you're filled with moral outrage and want to find an outlet for that, and since you can't find anything better to do you're going to disrespect 1/5th of the world?

Again, the problem isn't that these extremists are threatening people over drawing Mohammed - the problem is that they are threatening people AT ALL.

You're looking solely on your motivation for doing something, and not on how that something will affect people.  That's why you are coming across...well, how bosky said.

[ehra]

So, again, what is it exactly that you are looking for?

To give actual reasons for how attempting to stand up for someone else's right to be a douche makes me a douche. Not just keep repeating "doing things just to offend people is wrong."

But that is an actual reason.  The fact that you don't like it doesn't mean it isn't a valid reason.

The reason I don't like it is because THAT IS NOT WHY IT'S BEING DONE. It's not a valid reason because it's outright false.

You're looking solely on your motivation for doing something, and not on how that something will affect people.  That's why you are coming across...well, how bosky said.

If I'm coming across as doing this for the sole purpose of offending anyone then maybe you should take a few seconds to read some of my posts for a change. Particularly the posts where I say offending people is not the intention.

[bosk1]

It doesn't matter that offending people isn't your motivation.  It is a substantial certainty that offending people will occur whether it is your motivation for protesting or not.  Knowing that and disregarding it in favor of doing what you want to do is the issue.

[prog.fusion]

Bottom Line- If one wants to draw muhammed, they should be allowed to do so and not be sentenced to death. But one should be aware that a lot of people would think you are a douche.



/o'story

[bosk1]

Bottom Line- If one wants to draw muhammed, they should be allowed to do so and not be sentenced to death. But one should be aware that a lot of people would think you are a douche.



/o'story

  I guess that about sums it up.

[hefdaddy42]

Bottom Line- If one wants to draw muhammed, they should be allowed to do so and not be sentenced to death. But one should be aware that a lot of people would think you are a douche.



/o'story

Brilliant.

[ehra]

It doesn't matter that offending people isn't your motivation.  It is a substantial certainty that offending people will occur whether it is your motivation for protesting or not.  Knowing that and disregarding it in favor of doing what you want to do is the issue.

So what you're saying is that even if people have no logical reason for being offended over something, if they are then you're at fault for offending them. Even if it doesn't actually harm them in any way, and even if that act is the only valid form of protest that actually makes sense.

I said it earlier in the thread and, unsurprisingly, it was ignored. If the reason mentioned on these forums for why Muslims consider it blasphemy to draw Mohamad is true (because it's giving a worldly/physical form to something that is beyond the physical and it taints their vision of him), then they have NO good reason to be offended over the fact that pictures they won't see are being drawn.

[prog.fusion]

im not as internet-forum savvy as most, so i take it that those comments are meant with sarcasm? if so, oh well. If not, glad you can see reason.

[bosk1]

So what you're saying is that even if people have no logical reason for being offended over something, if they are then you're at fault for offending them.

That's part of it, yes.  If you know they will be offended, and there is no good reason for you going out of your way to offend them, then yes.  

Obviously, there are times when we will unintentionally offend.  That doesn't make the offender a jerk.  Obviously, there are times when we will likely offend, but that is an unfortunate consequence of an action that is reasonably necessary.  That probably doesn't make the offender a jerk, but possibly still could in some circumstances.  In my (and some others') opinion, as has already been said, I do not see this protest as reasonably necessary.  Ergo...well, you already know what the ergo is.

I said it earlier in the thread and, unsurprisingly, it was ignored. If the reason mentioned on these forums for why Muslims consider it blasphemy to draw Mohamad is true (because it's giving a worldly/physical form to something that is beyond the physical and it taints their vision of him), then they have NO good reason to be offended over the fact that pictures they won't see are being drawn.

I don't think it was ignored.  I just think it is irrelevant.  Nobody said they have a good reason to be offended.  I agree with you that they do not (although my reasoning is probably different than yours in some respects).  But that isn't the point.

[hefdaddy42]

So what you're saying is that even if people have no logical reason for being offended over something, if they are then you're at fault for offending them. Even if it doesn't actually harm them in any way, and even if that act is the only valid form of protest that actually makes sense.

We aren't talking about logic, we are talking about religion.  And no matter what you think of their reasons for being offended, if you know it will offend them and you do it anyway, especially if there is no reason that you need to do the offending action, yes, you are at fault.  How could you not be?  

Also, "actual harm" is in the eye of the beholder.  And why is any protest needed in the first place?

I said it earlier in the thread and, unsurprisingly, it was ignored. If the reason mentioned on these forums for why Muslims consider it blasphemy to draw Mohamad is true (because it's giving a worldly/physical form to something that is beyond the physical and it taints their vision of him), then they have NO good reason to be offended over the fact that pictures they won't see are being drawn.

If they won't see them, why would you do it?  That's an even more meaningless protest than I thought.

[ehra]

That's part of it, yes.  If you know they will be offended, and there is no good reason for you going out of your way to offend them, then yes.

So then why do we allow scantily clad women in our society? There's no good reason to allow it when the cost is upsetting so many people right?

We aren't talking about logic

Yes, that's become painfully obvious.

If they won't see them, why would you do it?  That's an even more meaningless protest than I thought.

So you're saying it's impossible that people will eventually decide to ignore these threats? Because, yes, I do agree that it doesn't matter if that becomes the ultimate outcome at the cost of people being offended over something they shouldn't have gone looking for in the first place.

[hefdaddy42]

...

[ehra]

Anything to actually contribute?

[Dr. SeaWolf]

I guess I'm in the absolute minority in this thread in that I actually find offensive-for-the-sake-of-offensive humor tremendously funny, especially when people's huffy religious sensibilities get upset to the point of violence by a stupid little cartoon show.

If that makes me immature, then I'll ask millahhh to revoke my title of "maturest forum member".

[bosk1]

That's part of it, yes.  If you know they will be offended, and there is no good reason for you going out of your way to offend them, then yes.

So then why do we allow scantily clad women in our society? There's no good reason to allow it when the cost is upsetting so many people right?

Nobody has said anything about banning anything from society, so your intended point again misses the mark.  You are allowed in our society to draw Mohammed to your heart's content.  The issue is whether there is a good reason to do so and whether doing so, especially in the form of an "organized" protest that is reasonably certain to offend, is in poor taste or not.

[ehra]

Nobody has said anything about banning anything from society, so your intended point again misses the mark.

If everyone's afraid to do it for fear of being blown up then it effectively IS banned. If no one ever does it then it makes the people who actually do it stand out, even if they do have a good reason for it. And they will be targeted.

It doesn't matter right now if anyone has a good or bad reason because once they try they'll either be killed or shut up by someone else who doesn't want to risk being killed.