May 20th is Everybody Draw Mohammed Day!!!

[ehra]

They don't care why anyone wants to do it, whether it's a valid reason or not. All they care about is if they get their way or not.

I assume you're referring to extremists getting their way here?

If so, in the exact same fashion, anybody who protests this doesn't care why they DON'T want you to do it, whether it's a valid reason or not.  All the protestors care about is if they get their way or not.

Actually the protest is because of a group that's trying to suppress other's freedom of speech. Like you even said, most of them wouldn't even be doing it if the extremists weren't using force to keep others that DID want to do it quiet. Again, the article in the OP said this isn't directed at the rest of the Muslim community. Which means that they realize what they're doing is offensive and that they WOULDN'T be doing it if it weren't for the extremists. Chances are that they also won't do it again after this.

I've also even said already that I hold anyone's freedom of speech to be far more important than keeping any group from being offended.

Sorry, ehra, but I'm still firmly of the thinking that the only message you are sending is, "I can be a jerk, so I will."

That's ok, I'm still firmly convinced that you simply refuse to look at your own hypocrisy in calling others jerks while at the same time calling them out for doing something that might offend someone else (someone who has no logical reason for being offended, since they would have to go looking for it to see it). It's all good, we're all going to forget this thread a month from now anyway and probably do or get in arguments that directly contradict what we've been arguing here anyway. 

[hefdaddy42]

I'm still waiting for what an appropriate from of protest would be that also makes a point. Like I said, saying you won't be intimidated but still doing exactly what they say holds absolutely no weight

You're right.  You should go picket outside a mosque, with a picture of Mohammed.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I've also even said already that I hold anyone's freedom of speech to be far more important than keeping any group from being offended.

I do too.  When I have a legitimate reason to say or do something offensive.  The consensus is "We want to do this it, because they're threatening violence if we do say it, that's our legitimate reason."  The government threatens you with all kinds of loss of rights and liberty when you choose to do something that, in your heart, you know isn't necessary to do.  Granted yes, it IS a little different, but it's also a little the same.  Do we stand up to the government for threatening us for doing things that are inconsenquential to most peoples' daily lives, yet a few people feel they should be able to do?  I'm really not trying to just be contrary, but I'm trying to understand how this is justifiable as anything more than what bosk said.

[ehra]

I'm still waiting for what an appropriate from of protest would be that also makes a point. Like I said, saying you won't be intimidated but still doing exactly what they say holds absolutely no weight

You're right.  You should go picket outside a mosque, with a picture of Mohammed.

You should go picket outside of wherever South Park Studios is, since making jokes that will offend a group of people is so bad.

I'm really not trying to just be contrary, but I'm trying to understand how this is justifiable as anything more than what bosk said.

For me personally, it's because people like South Park supposedly has the right to make fun of anyone they want except Muslims. If it's ok to make fun of anyone but Muslims then that's extremely unfair to the entire rest of the world.

Am I allowed to get offended any time someone breaks one of the Ten Commandments? If people continue to do so even through they know they're offending me does that mean they're petty jerks? If they continue to do so and I threaten to murder them, then another group decides to do what offends me in protest does that make THEM petty jerks?

[Adami]

The problem, Ehra, is that NO ONE is actually trying to censor you. South park had their issues, let them deal with it. You pissing everyone off just to show that you have the right to do so won't actually solve anything.

How about being practical rather than dogmatic?

[ehra]

The problem, Ehra, is that NO ONE is actually trying to censor you. South park had their issues, let them deal with it. You pissing everyone off just to show that you have the right to do so won't actually solve anything.

What I'm hearing is that, because this didn't affect me specifically, I have no place to want to defend someone else's rights that are in fact being taken away (through violence).

How about being practical rather than dogmatic?

What exactly is impractical about this? Speaking of practicality, how many Muslims that don't go looking for it will actually see the results of this protest? Surely it won't be the billions you and others have claimed.

[Adami]

You know what? You're right.

Sit in your room and draw muhammad. That will sure put those peskey extremists in their place. Damn, why didn't we think of that in Iraq? All we had to do was send in soldiers who could sit in tents and draw pictures. The war would have been won!

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I get that South Park lampoons everyone, so why is this group protected?  Like it or not, when you're dealing with mentally unstable people, sometimes the least desirable way to go is the one that is the safest for all involved.  It sucks, but that's how it is.  Fanning the flames only makes unstable people even more unstable.

It's like in elementary school.  Whenever someone gets called a name and they protest it vehemently, then everybody latches on and relentlessly calls them this new undesirable name.  Is it okay defend their asshattery, when the victim is obviously clearly and rightfully offended?

I agree that on the other side, there should be SOME sort of concession, but if it were your religion that were being lampooned, you wouldn't expect to have to make concessions about what you think on it.  But I bet you probably would be willing to let it slide.  Why?  You're a rational huuman being, who can be reasoned with.  These people aren't, in my opinion.  Doesn't mean we have to cater to them, but it also doesn't mean we have to go pushing their buttons on purpose either.

I have no idea what the appropriate protest would be, but in my mind, this certainly isn't it.

[hefdaddy42]

This isn't about "offense."  Everybody gets offended over different things.  But this is a central part of their religion.  

No one is saying that you can't make fun of Muslims.  Making fun of Muslims isn't against their faith.  But this thing is.

Besides, I still don't understand the point of this.  You keep saying that it isn't to offend the majority of Muslims, but only the extremists.  It won't offend the extremists, they are happy you are doing this.  It will be fuel for their fire and will probaby cause some who aren't currently extremists to become extremists.  Why not, since people don't respect your religion, even when you're not acting like a dick about it?  "Look, the infidels trample on our faith!"  What will you be able to say?  Nothing, that's what.

And fuck South Park.  This isn't about South Park.  I couldn't care less about South Park.

[ehra]

You know what? You're right.

Sit in your room and draw muhammad. That will sure put those peskey extremists in their place. Damn, why didn't we think of that in Iraq? All we had to do was send in soldiers who could sit in tents and draw pictures. The war would have been won!

If it's not going to have any affect then why the 4 page debate? If it's not an issue then why would they send these threats to people who were going to do it in the first place?

I think it's hilarious that you and Hef are trying to somehow make me feel foolish or whatever for protesting something over the internet when the two of you guys are doing the exact same thing I am, debating the topic over the internet. Yeah, you sure showed me.

[Adami]

I'd also like to point out that NO ONE'S RIGHT ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY!

South Park were censored by THEIR BOSSES. Who have every right to do that, for whatever reason. There was no law censoring them, it was a personal decision of some board somewhere.

South Park also can't say several other things, why not graffiti those words everywhere, cause appearently your right to free speech is based on what South Park is or isn't allowed to do.

[Adami]

And I've been debating ethics, courtesy, not laws. I'm not trying make you feel foolish, argue all you want. All of us are just saying it's a douche move to do.

[ehra]

Like it or not, when you're dealing with mentally unstable people, sometimes the least desirable way to go is the one that is the safest for all involved.

It wouldn't be an issue if everyone would just ignore them in the first place. We don't see scantily clad women being targeted, which Hef implied was also against their religion in another thread.

No one is saying that you can't make fun of Muslims.  Making fun of Muslims isn't against their faith.  But this thing is.

Breaking the Ten Commandments and not believing in God is against my faith, isn't it?

Besides, I still don't understand the point of this.  You keep saying that it isn't to offend the majority of Muslims, but only the extremists.  It won't offend the extremists

Then it would help if you would read, because I've specifically said that offending ANYONE is not the point.

And fuck South Park.  This isn't about South Park.  I couldn't care less about South Park.

So why are you in a thread about a protest that was started partially in response to what happened to South Park?

I'd also like to point out that NO ONE'S RIGHT ARE BEING TAKEN AWAY!

South Park were censored by THEIR BOSSES. Who have every right to do that, for whatever reason. There was no law censoring them, it was a personal decision of some board somewhere.

South Park also can't say several other things, why not graffiti those words everywhere, cause appearently your right to free speech is based on what South Park is or isn't allowed to do.

I'm not going to keep quoting posts I've made that you apparently haven't read. I've already said that I'm fine with not doing something because you don't want to offend someone, which means I would also be ok if SP was censored just because their boss didn't want to offend Muslims. But this was obviously done because of a threat of violence against them.

And I've been debating ethics, courtesy, not laws. I'm not trying make you feel foolish, argue all you want. All of us are just saying it's a douche move to do.

And I'm saying it's hilarious that you, Hef, and Bosk can call a whole group of people douches and jerks while at the same time calling them out for offending another group and not bat an eye.

[Adami]

Ehra, are you american? Or where are you from?

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Like it or not, when you're dealing with mentally unstable people, sometimes the least desirable way to go is the one that is the safest for all involved.

It wouldn't be an issue if everyone would just ignore them in the first place. We don't see scantily clad women being targeted, which Hef implied was also against their religion in another thread.

Because scantily clad women are awesome.

[ehra]

Ehra, are you american? Or where are you from?

Yes.

[Isolde]

South Park trolls the fuck out of Christianity and Judaism and it should by all means do the exact same to Islam.

I'm a Christian and I was not offended by the vigin mary getting her vagina blood all over the pope (as it made me laugh). People need to realize South Park is a cartoon, meant to generate laughs.

Apparently South Park also had to take down the "Super Best Friends" episode. I'd like to ponder on the message of this episode for a little bit. The Super Best Friends episode consisted of several religious figures from all over the world, from all different relgions . The message of this episode was one of peaceful coexistence between the world religions . Its about time people reflect on the good messages of SP rather than the questionable content.

Don't know about anyone else, but I'm not. I'm saying that there's a double standard going on that up until now,they've been allowed to do whatever they want but now Muslims are off limits. It's either all or nothing, if it's ok to make fun of anyone else then it should be ok to make fun of Muslims as well. If it's not ok to make fun of Muslims then it also shouldn't be ok to make fun of anyone else, ever.

Since showing Muhammad's picture is blashphemous to Muslims maybe SP should have been more careful about making jokes of  world religions. But as I said earlier, I was not offended by the virgin mary being used as she was used.

Muslims should just take a moment to realize the Jews and Christians are being 'picked on' as well as them. it wasnt an intetional threat to the Muslims, it was just comedy.  

I can understand them getting upset at the situation but instead of focusing on their one religion they need to realize that they're not the only ones being pseudo-attacked

[hefdaddy42]

Then it would help if you would read, because I've specifically said that offending ANYONE is not the point.

Right.  It's not the point.  It's just the only possible outcome.  But that doesn't matter.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

Muhammad Ali frowns upon your shenanigans.

[ehra]

Then it would help if you would read, because I've specifically said that offending ANYONE is not the point.

Right.  It's not the point.  It's just the only possible outcome.  But that doesn't matter.

So you're saying it's impossible that people will eventually decide to ignore these threats? Because, yes, I do agree that it doesn't matter if that becomes the ultimate outcome at the cost of people being offended over something they shouldn't have gone looking for in the first place.

I see offensive shit all the time. I get over it.

[Adami]

I asked if you were american, because untill there is a law or the government or state government of yours starts censoring you or anyone else about this, then you're just picking on muslims. Lots of groups everywhere get pissed off about things and many of them have threatened violence. Yet muslims are the only ones you're looking to piss off just to show that you have the right.


WE ALL KNOW YOU HAVE THE RIGHT. Not a single person in america has denied that to you.

[hefdaddy42]

Then it would help if you would read, because I've specifically said that offending ANYONE is not the point.

Right.  It's not the point.  It's just the only possible outcome.  But that doesn't matter.

So you're saying it's impossible that people will eventually decide to ignore these threats? Because, yes, I do agree that it doesn't matter if that becomes the ultimate outcome at the cost of people being offended over something they shouldn't have gone looking for in the first place.

I see offensive shit all the time. I get over it.

So your viewpoint is the be-all and end-all of viewpoints?

[Nick]

You know, I am willing to accept the idea that we shouldn't do this just because we can, but there comes a point where people want to express that if the want or need to they should be able to do this, and many find this as an outlet to express that.

And whoever said South Park does things simply to be offensive obviously doesn't know what they are talking about. Their aim has always been humor and satire, and I have never known them to do anything simply to offend someone or some group just for the hell of it.

[Quadrochosis]

The people that are pro-protest here are arguing rights.

The people that are anti-protest here are arguing respect.

The people that are arguing respect are not questioning rights, in fact most of us agree with your rights issues.

Pro-Protesters, stop arguing rights. We get that. This isn't about rights. We know that if you want to be a huge dick and offend billions of people merely to spite a couple hundred you have every right to do so. We're simply saying that out of respect and human dignity it would be nice to simply treat their religion with respect and not go out of your way to purposely offend almost 1/5 of the Earth.

[Nigerius Rex]

Who is the girl in your avatar?

[ehra]

I asked if you were american, because untill there is a law or the government or state government of yours starts censoring you or anyone else about this, then you're just picking on muslims. Lots of groups everywhere get pissed off about things and many of them have threatened violence. Yet muslims are the only ones you're looking to piss off just to show that you have the right.


WE ALL KNOW YOU HAVE THE RIGHT. Not a single person in america has denied that to you.

I don't have an issue with anyone in America, do I? And just because there isn't a law saying we're not allowed to doesn't change that it's becoming a policy that we aren't, and people that want to are being forced not to, not because their superiors don't want to offend anyone, but because of a threat.

Then it would help if you would read, because I've specifically said that offending ANYONE is not the point.

Right.  It's not the point.  It's just the only possible outcome.  But that doesn't matter.

So you're saying it's impossible that people will eventually decide to ignore these threats? Because, yes, I do agree that it doesn't matter if that becomes the ultimate outcome at the cost of people being offended over something they shouldn't have gone looking for in the first place.

I see offensive shit all the time. I get over it.

So your viewpoint is the be-all and end-all of viewpoints?

Where the hell have I said anything like that? I've posted my views, you're posting your views.

Pro-Protesters, stop arguing rights. We get that. This isn't about rights. We know that if you want to be a huge dick and offend billions of people merely to spite a couple hundred you have every right to do so. We're simply saying that out of respect and human dignity it would be nice to simply treat their religion with respect and not go out of your way to purposely offend almost 1/5 of the Earth.

No matter how much you guys say this isn't about rights, it doesn't change that it is. I repeat, that IS what the protest is about. And since this is an argument about that protest, that means this is about rights.

You think retaliating against a group that's threatening violence against people who don't do what they want them to do is a dick move. Dully noted. I've also posted my own views about that particular argument.

[Quadrochosis]

Pro-Protesters, stop arguing rights. We get that. This isn't about rights. We know that if you want to be a huge dick and offend billions of people merely to spite a couple hundred you have every right to do so. We're simply saying that out of respect and human dignity it would be nice to simply treat their religion with respect and not go out of your way to purposely offend almost 1/5 of the Earth.

No matter how much you guys say this isn't about rights, it doesn't change that it is. I repeat, that IS what the protest is about. And since this is an argument about that protest, that means this is about rights.

You think retaliating against a group that's threatening violence against people who don't do what they want them to do is a dick move. Dully noted. I've also posted my own views about that particular argument.

If whoever created this entirely nonsensical charade of bullshit honestly thinks that this "protest" is about rights, then they're wrong. No one, including the extremists themselves ever said "you have no right to draw Muhammad."

[bosk1]

You think retaliating against a group that's threatening violence against people who don't do what they want them to do is a dick move.  

Yes.  Retaliating is almost always wrong.

Dully noted.

Yes, an apt description.  

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

I think the extremists need a good dose of

[Super Dude]

Cozmo those boobs are amazing.  Entrancing, even.

[Sir GuitarCozmo]

My evil plan is working...

[hefdaddy42]

It just seems an ineffective form of protest.  What are you trying to accomplish?

[ehra]

Pro-Protesters, stop arguing rights. We get that. This isn't about rights. We know that if you want to be a huge dick and offend billions of people merely to spite a couple hundred you have every right to do so. We're simply saying that out of respect and human dignity it would be nice to simply treat their religion with respect and not go out of your way to purposely offend almost 1/5 of the Earth.

No matter how much you guys say this isn't about rights, it doesn't change that it is. I repeat, that IS what the protest is about. And since this is an argument about that protest, that means this is about rights.

You think retaliating against a group that's threatening violence against people who don't do what they want them to do is a dick move. Dully noted. I've also posted my own views about that particular argument.

If whoever created this entirely nonsensical charade of bullshit honestly thinks that this "protest" is about rights, then they're wrong. No one, including the extremists themselves ever said "you have no right to draw Muhammad."

You're right, they said "if you draw Muhammad we'll blow you the fuck up." It amounts to close to the same thing if no one does it because they're afraid of not only them but anyone near them at the time being killed.

So, again, this is entirely about other people's right to do something I may not even agree with.

It just seems an ineffective form of protest.  What are you trying to accomplish?

I already said what I hope it accomplishes in the last post you quoted.

[emindead]

South Park were censored by THEIR BOSSES. Who have every right to do that, for whatever reason. There was no law censoring them, it was a personal decision of some board somewhere.

This.

[ReaPsTA]

Radical Muslims threaten to kill people who draw Muhammad. The purpose of everybody draw Muhammad day is to try showing that nobody should have the power to silence speech through violence. If it was just a matter of Muslims being offended, the debate would be different.