Author Topic: The atmospheric DT songs...  (Read 4635 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Darkes7

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2073
  • Gender: Male
The atmospheric DT songs...
« on: March 26, 2010, 04:31:08 PM »
Well, I decided to start this thread because there's a phenomenon that's pretty much incomprehensible to me - two attitudes conflicting each other. The first one is that most reasonable DT fans, and I guess like 99% of DTF, turn red/purple/green/whatever when someone calls DT a "band that has amazing instrumental skills but their music is soulless wankery without atmosphere and feeling blahblah", which obviously makes sense.

The other side, however, is that it seems to me like around here songs that are long, complex and "prog" are awesome by definition (look The Count of Tuscany...), and annihilate any competition that isn't. On the other hand, songs that are based almost entirely on atmosphere, feeling and melody, while not being too "prog" - Wait for Sleep, Space-Dye Vest [ok, this one is a weird case], Through Her Eyes, Disappear, Vacant, Repentance... I've probably forgotten something - are either ignored, or it seems to me like some people feel some sort of burning hate against them, as I don't see any other reasonable explanation of this. They get little to no attention in the DT sub-forum itself, they get pretty much massacred in any survivors (the 12-step suite one was the catalyst for this thread, as it was another example - apparently a lot of people preferred sections disliked as "wankery" over the calm Repentance), and in general it's rather obvious they're in a worse position than anything else (except You Not Me and Prophets of War :P).

So, here is my question: how the hell does this happen, and what kind of reasoning am I missing here?

Offline contest_sanity

  • Posts: 2346
  • Gender: Male
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2010, 04:40:38 PM »
An interesting conundrum.

I guess as Walt Whitman put it:

"Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself."


Offline robwebster

  • Posts: 5021
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2010, 04:40:43 PM »
I don't think THE or Vacant develop quite enough for them to be considered among the highest order of Dream Theater songs.

For me, I really love many of those songs. Repentance is beautiful and so so haunting, and Disappear is fantastic too. Space-Dye Vest I actually really enjoy, and Wait for Sleep is actually a top-half song on IAW.

But, frankly, Dream Theater are so so so much more talented at writing the sprawling prog epics than they are at writing the eerie or heartrending songs. Yes, they can do it, but they're much better at writing, say, songs like Metropolis and so that's what they get remembered for. Their fantastic work with the long songs.



I think the entire model you're proposing is completely flawed, though. They're not conflicting each other! Listen to the Count of Tuscany and tell me it's not atmospheric. Listen to ACOS and tell me it's not beautiful. Listen to Razor's Edge and tell me that it's not soaringly beautiful. Listen to Someone Like Him and tell me it's not haunting. Everyone loves the moody stuff. Hell, there are a LOT of people who love Awake, and it's one of the moodiest albums!

People love the mood when it comes. The reason those songs are discussed less often are because there are fewer of them.   You barely ever see Honor Thy Father mentioned, either. Doesn't mean we don't dig the heavy songs.

Besides, Dream Theater aren't as strong when writing the moody pieces as they are writing riffs and acrobatics. The Glass Prison is clearly more their home ground than Repentance, and while Repentance is a very strong song (Steven Wilson's favourite, I believe!), TGP is so clearly a band thriving, right at the top of its game.

Offline contest_sanity

  • Posts: 2346
  • Gender: Male
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2010, 04:42:45 PM »
^
His explanation is also good.

Offline moffatt

  • Lost fanboi
  • Posts: 629
  • Gender: Male
  • Head & Shoulders > L'oreal
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2010, 04:43:13 PM »
I don't think THE or Vacant develop quite enough for them to be considered among the highest order of Dream Theater songs.

For me, I really love many of those songs. Repentance is beautiful and so so haunting, and Disappear is fantastic too. Space-Dye Vest I actually really enjoy, and Wait for Sleep is actually a top-half song on IAW.

But, frankly, Dream Theater are so so so much more talented at writing the sprawling prog epics than they are at writing the eerie or heartrending songs. Yes, they can do it, but they're much better at writing, say, songs like Metropolis and so that's what they get remembered for. Their fantastic work with the long songs.



I think the entire model you're proposing is completely flawed, though. They're not conflicting each other! Listen to the Count of Tuscany and tell me it's not atmospheric. Listen to ACOS and tell me it's not beautiful. Listen to Razor's Edge and tell me that it's not soaringly beautiful. Listen to Someone Like Him and tell me it's not haunting. Everyone loves the moody stuff. Hell, there are a LOT of people who love Awake, and it's one of the moodiest albums!

People love the mood when it comes. The reason those songs are discussed less often are because there are fewer of them.   You barely ever see Honor Thy Father mentioned, either. Doesn't mean we don't dig the heavy songs.

Besides, Dream Theater aren't as strong when writing the moody pieces as they are writing riffs and acrobatics. The Glass Prison is clearly more their home ground than Repentance, and while Repentance is a very strong song (Steven Wilson's favourite, I believe!), TGP is so clearly a band thriving, right at the top of its game.

I agree with everything, well said

Offline Darkes7

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2073
  • Gender: Male
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2010, 04:57:39 PM »
I wonder if there's a thread where Rob couldn't come close to doing /thread with one post... :P

Well, I definitely see your point and you're right for the most part, but the problem is that they don't lose only with the big epics, but with pretty much everything else. I don't want to dig for particular examples, since that would be nearly statistics (which are evil by definition), but as far as I remember, all of those didn't stand a chance against everything else, except for some really disliked songs, like the aforementioned Prophets of War. Yes, I agree DT is a band that definitely excels at complexity, but the few all-atmospheric songs they have are definitely high-quality... yet they still have very few supporters around here. This is exactly what I'm wondering about, and why is this - if people are so annoyed by the statements of DT being a "soulless band", it would mean they also appreciate atmosphere, and this seems like a contradiction here. Some songs are pretty liked, actually (Trial of Tears, for example), but it seems like it's also those with a more "prog" spirit...

And you mentioned Wait for Sleep - what I find interesting is that it seems like easily the least appreciated from I&W around here. All the others are worshipped, this is one that's pretty much left out.

Offline Marvellous G

  • Posts: 2335
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm not sure on the avatar swearing policy...
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2010, 04:58:22 PM »
This might just get shouted down, but I think, sonically, Falling Into Infinity seems to be their most atmospheric album by far for me, with only SDOIT or SFAM coming close. (I'm sticking a huge IMO disclaimer on that) And yet it seems to be one of the least loved DT albums 'round these parts.

Offline ACID_FOX

  • DTF's Offical Arctic Monkeys Fanboy.
  • Posts: 1408
  • Gender: Male
  • But You're Just Fiction, And I'm A Twisted Boy.
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2010, 05:46:17 PM »
I ADORE FII, I really don't understand the hate :'(
I only like ablums that I can xanascholithoun.

Offline robwebster

  • Posts: 5021
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2010, 06:00:06 PM »
I wonder if there's a thread where Rob couldn't come close to doing /thread with one post... :P
Ha! I'm flattered. Although, in fairness, you're putting up a rather good counterargument so you know -- maybe this is that thread.

Er, weird example, but dog shows. They're not reaaaally gaugeing which dog is the most attractive - mainly because the judges would never be able to show their faces in public again, but the criteria is more along the lines of "Which of these dogs looks most like a dog." And then someone comes along and goes "Oh, this is a perfect dog, let's give it the dog award for dogness, it must have taken a lot of talent to be a dog but oh my dog, this dog's done it."

I kinda think Dream Theater are the top of their breed. They're top dog. They've won a... lifetime supply of Pedigree Chum. When it comes to making big ol' songs full of time signatures and key changes and augmented sweeps, there is no dog finer.  And that's what us judges like. It's our common ground, so the ones that match that rough template are naturally gonna come off a little bit better. While a song like Disappear is authentically heartrending - and relatively experimental, actually - there are about fifty other dogs in that breed which can do it better. Whereas, when Dream Theater do Dream Theater, they're more or less unbeatable.

So, the people who are gravitating towards Dream Theater are the kind of people who like things which are innately Dream Theaterry, and so if you kind of take the "average" fan opinion, they're more likely to dig Under a Glass Moon than Wait for Sleep. Because we're the kind of people who like music that sounds like Dream Theater!

Incidentally, I'd wager that the songs that are most outside the Dream Theater comfort zone are probably among the more controversial ones. I wouldn't be surprised if, if everyone were to individually rank the songs on IAW, there would be a lot of instances of Wait for Sleep in the top four, but the number of people who weren't so keen would cancel it out. This kinda works the other way, too - because DT are known for relatively thoughtful, melodic songs, the brutally rhythmic and borderline spastic The Dark Eternal Night also tends to get the shaft. Although there are a lot of people who love it.

I'm feeling increasingly like I'm talking out of my arse, right now, seeing as I have absolutely nothing to substantiate any of this with, so I'm going to stop typing while I'm ahead. Ish.

Purely guesswork.

Offline robwebster

  • Posts: 5021
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2010, 06:07:41 PM »
I wonder if there's a thread where Rob couldn't come close to doing /thread with one post... :P
Ha! I'm flattered. Although, in fairness, you're putting up a rather good counterargument so you know -- maybe this is that thread.

Er, weird example, but dog shows. They're not reaaaally gaugeing which dog is the most attractive - mainly because the judges would never be able to show their faces in public again, but the criteria is more along the lines of "Which of these dogs looks most like a dog." And then someone comes along and goes "Oh, this is a perfect dog, let's give it the dog award for dogness, it must have taken a lot of talent to be a dog but oh my dog, this dog's done it."

I kinda think Dream Theater are the top of their breed. They're top dog. They've won a... lifetime supply of Pedigree Chum. When it comes to making big ol' songs full of time signatures and key changes and augmented sweeps, there is no dog finer.  And that's what us judges like. It's our common ground, so the ones that match that rough template are naturally gonna come off a little bit better. While a song like Disappear is authentically heartrending - and relatively experimental, actually - there are about fifty other dogs in that breed which can do it better. Whereas, when Dream Theater do Dream Theater, they're more or less unbeatable.

So, the people who are gravitating towards Dream Theater are the kind of people who like things which are innately Dream Theaterry, and so if you kind of take the "average" fan opinion, they're more likely to dig Under a Glass Moon than Wait for Sleep. Because we're the kind of people who like music that sounds like Dream Theater!

Incidentally, I'd wager that the songs that are most outside the Dream Theater comfort zone are probably among the more controversial ones. I wouldn't be surprised if, if everyone were to individually rank the songs on IAW, there would be a lot of instances of Wait for Sleep in the top four, but the number of people who weren't so keen would cancel it out. This kinda works the other way, too - because DT are known for relatively thoughtful, melodic songs, the brutally rhythmic and borderline spastic The Dark Eternal Night also tends to get the shaft. Although there are a lot of people who love it.

I'm feeling increasingly like I'm talking out of my arse, right now, seeing as I have absolutely nothing to substantiate any of this with, so I'm going to stop typing while I'm ahead. Ish.

Purely guesswork.
AHA! STOP THE TRAIN! I have found a way to substantiate it. Big ol' slew of thought juice. Bear with me. In an ideal world I'd organise my thoughts before posting but then again, in an ideal world I'd be going out with Karen Gillan so screw those guys.

There's a kind of common idea that the song that wins the survivor is the board's favourite. Which isn't reaaaally true. It's technically the song that's the least objectionable! People are voting off the song they don't like. So, the songs which sound least like the "core" Dream Theater sound, will be the ones that go off first. Because we all like weedly metal with time signatures and big ol' choruses and some fantastic ideas to boot. But not all of us like the ballad. So fewer of us are likely to vote "Metropolis" than are likely to vote for weedy old Wait for Sleep. Even if a huge number of us think it's hauntingly beautiful, we're ALL going to think that Metropolis is fairly good, or else what the hell are we listening to Dream Theater for?

(Actually, I'm fairly indifferent to Metropolis, so again - there are holes. But still! It seems like a fairly nice broad-brushstrokes explanation.)

Offline zmazar

  • Posts: 71
  • "Ride the wings of dreams."
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2010, 10:51:12 PM »
I don't think THE or Vacant develop quite enough for them to be considered among the highest order of Dream Theater songs.

For me, I really love many of those songs. Repentance is beautiful and so so haunting, and Disappear is fantastic too. Space-Dye Vest I actually really enjoy, and Wait for Sleep is actually a top-half song on IAW.

But, frankly, Dream Theater are so so so much more talented at writing the sprawling prog epics than they are at writing the eerie or heartrending songs. Yes, they can do it, but they're much better at writing, say, songs like Metropolis and so that's what they get remembered for. Their fantastic work with the long songs.



I think the entire model you're proposing is completely flawed, though. They're not conflicting each other! Listen to the Count of Tuscany and tell me it's not atmospheric. Listen to ACOS and tell me it's not beautiful. Listen to Razor's Edge and tell me that it's not soaringly beautiful. Listen to Someone Like Him and tell me it's not haunting. Everyone loves the moody stuff. Hell, there are a LOT of people who love Awake, and it's one of the moodiest albums!

People love the mood when it comes. The reason those songs are discussed less often are because there are fewer of them.   You barely ever see Honor Thy Father mentioned, either. Doesn't mean we don't dig the heavy songs.

Besides, Dream Theater aren't as strong when writing the moody pieces as they are writing riffs and acrobatics. The Glass Prison is clearly more their home ground than Repentance, and while Repentance is a very strong song (Steven Wilson's favourite, I believe!), TGP is so clearly a band thriving, right at the top of its game.

I don't think it could be said better.

If there was a villain who could only be defeated through the sheer awesomeness of music, then rest assured that LTL would be on batman's MP3 utility belt player.

Offline antigoon

  • Not Elvis
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 10293
  • Gender: Male
  • This was a triumph.
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2010, 12:43:50 AM »
Rob, you're a fucking genius. I'm not sober right now, but I promise to tell you tomorrow to make sure you know I MEAN IT!



.....lol

Offline Arcaeus

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4357
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2010, 01:12:21 AM »
Yeah robby's up there with my favorite posters, I need to add him to my god list.

I agree with everything he's said. I have nothing more to add. I am useful and important.

Offline Plasmastrike

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1137
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2010, 01:42:12 AM »
 :lol

I applaud.

That is all.

Offline j

  • Posts: 2794
  • Gender: Male
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2010, 10:09:46 AM »
Yet another fine display of reason, thoughtfulness, and master wordsmithery from Rob, which renders any further posts unnecessary.  I tip my hat to you sir.  :hat

This might just get shouted down, but I think, sonically, Falling Into Infinity seems to be their most atmospheric album by far for me, with only SDOIT or SFAM coming close. (I'm sticking a huge IMO disclaimer on that) And yet it seems to be one of the least loved DT albums 'round these parts.

I agree with this, and that's why it's one of my favorites.  Tough to match Trial of Tears in atmosphere.

-J

Offline antigoon

  • Not Elvis
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 10293
  • Gender: Male
  • This was a triumph.
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2010, 11:42:58 AM »
Rob, you're a fucking genius. I'm not sober right now, but I promise to tell you tomorrow to make sure you know I MEAN IT!



.....lol

:lol

I meant it :P

Offline Darkes7

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2073
  • Gender: Male
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2010, 03:22:29 PM »
Sorry for the delay but I'll give a full reply tomorrow.

Offline Plasmastrike

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1137
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2010, 06:03:28 PM »
Sorry for the delay but I'll give a full reply tomorrow.
Ohhh shi-

Offline Darkes7

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2073
  • Gender: Male
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2010, 05:18:22 PM »
Sorry for the delay but I'll give a full reply tomorrow.
Ohhh shi-
:lol

After reading it closely... Well, I'm probably known as stubborn so this may be a bit surprising, but you sort of convinced me. I hadn't thought of this that way, and it makes sense... [Though I'm curious why nobody else has bothered to even reply in this thread. Particularly some of the ones that are usually the loudest about this issue]

Btw, the dog example, and the way it's written - my nomination for post of the month at least. :lol

Offline setrataeso

  • Setlist Archivist
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3765
  • Gender: Male
  • I probably don't like you
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2010, 06:13:27 PM »
Sorry for the delay but I'll give a full reply tomorrow.
Ohhh shi-
:lol

After reading it closely... Well, I'm probably known as stubborn so this may be a bit surprising, but you sort of convinced me. I hadn't thought of this that way, and it makes sense... [Though I'm curious why nobody else has bothered to even reply in this thread. Particularly some of the ones that are usually the loudest about this issue]

Btw, the dog example, and the way it's written - my nomination for post of the month at least. :lol

Hmm...well I guess because you want more people to give you their thoughts, and I seem to be pretty vocal about certain songs I love and hate, Ill add my 2 cents.

The original post was interesting, in that you cited the "12-step survivor" as a catalyst for this idea. Im going to be brutally honest, but I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that the 12-step survivor was not easy to vote for. Not that we're indecisive, or we dont know what we want to win (Ready FTW, fyi), but that a lot of us cant pick apart the 12 movements that easily. I, for one, could not remember where TGP movements began and ended. And Ill be damned if Im gonna stop my listen-through of "Incredibad" so I can check on The Glass Prison. So, while I do agree with the rankings thus far, most of our memories of the 12 movements, are going to be much foggier than just plain ol' song survivors.

As for the atmospheric songs vs. epics: I think Rob covered it pretty well. Again, most of it is based on personal taste. I really, really like some atmospheric songs like Wait for Sleep and Speak to Me, but am less interested in others like Repentance and Through Her Eyes. Its not about some rule that epics > everything else, its just my taste. Technically speaking, there is very little similar between say, Repentance and The Killing Hand, but both are near the bottom of my list.
Theres no broad explanation for why we ignore the short, melodic songs more, although if there is one, I dont think there is a broader and more accurate reasoning for why fans feel this way than Rob's explanation.
NEW REVIEW: Lady Gaga - Born This Way
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=25343.0

Setra, I think that is the best statement I have read on this forum.  Very well said.

Offline austin

  • Heyyyyy
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 480
  • bit.ly/thefury
Re: The atmospheric DT songs...
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2010, 07:32:15 PM »
I like the atmospherics better than I like the proggies  :blush

But I love most when they are one in the same, i.e. Octavarium