The official Avantasia and Edguy thread v Moonflower Society - Oct 21st

[wolfking]

Pretty sure The Mystery of Time is the weakest album, has some of the worst lyrics too. IMO of course. Even Angel of Babylon at least has a couple good songs.  Moonglow freaking rules. 

[cramx3]

  this has come up so many times in this thread

Moonglow isn't terrible, but it's a big let down from what came before it IMO

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Mystery of Time to me is like a retread of the Scarecrow Trilogy but with weaker songwriting and worse singers. Ghostlights was much stronger, outside Geoff Tate who sounds bad, and then Moonglow was mostly really good with a few weak songs. Still better than Mystery of Time, though. The only songs I really listen to from that one now are The Watchmaker's Dream (just for Arjen's solo), Sleepwalking, and maybe Black Orchid.

[TAC]

Jeesh, I thought Geoff Tate sounded great. I knew Tobi would get it out of him.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Man, I don't want to know how awful Tate sounds outside of Avantasia for that performance to be considered good for him.

Also, re: lyrics, I think the Scarecrow trilogy was also Tobi's strongest stuff. It tells a good story while not descending into extremely literal 'characters speaking to each other' like the Metal Opera. There are still some funny Tobi-isms here and there, like what exactly is a 'funny flower'?, but overall it works really well.

Mystery of Time was sort of a step backwards in that regard, and I have to admit I haven't really paid attention to the lyrics in Ghostlights and Moonglow at all.

[wolfking]

Agree, Tate sounded pretty good considering how he did sound at the time.

[Melphina]

Mystery of Time to me is like a retread of the Scarecrow Trilogy but with weaker songwriting and worse singers. Ghostlights was much stronger, outside Geoff Tate who sounds bad, and then Moonglow was mostly really good with a few weak songs. Still better than Mystery of Time, though. The only songs I really listen to from that one now are The Watchmaker's Dream (just for Arjen's solo), Sleepwalking, and maybe Black Orchid.

Honestly Sleepwalking is the best thing about that album.

The Mystery Of Time is my all time favorite Avanatsia album, but feel free to shit on it.

[Melphina]

I haven't enjoyed the singles Tobi has put out for Avantasia in many years so I'm surprised by how much I'm enjoying The Wicked Rule The Night. Hope there's a lot of songs with this kind of inspired energy on the rest of the record.

[jingle.boy]

Moonglow isn't bad, but (imo) it is the least-best of the three in that "trilogy".  And yah, SN... Tater is/was terrible, and Tobi made him sound pretty damned good.  If you're comparing him to late-80s/early-90s Tate, then you're right and will be disappointed.  If you compare Alchemy/Invincible to 2010s Tater, he sounds fantastic here.

[MirrorMask]

Also, re: lyrics, I think the Scarecrow trilogy was also Tobi's strongest stuff. It tells a good story while not descending into extremely literal 'characters speaking to each other' like the Metal Opera. There are still some funny Tobi-isms here and there, like what exactly is a 'funny flower'?, but overall it works really well.

The song Runaway Train is about doing drugs, a consequence of the previous Blizzard on the Broken Mirror (Metallica... Master... chop your breakfast on a mirror...?), and so that stanza is about tripping and doing drugs - funny flowers, winter on the mirror.....

Moonglow isn't bad, but (imo) it is the least-best of the three in that "trilogy".

"Trilogy" as in "the last three albums"? because story-wise, the trilogy was Scarecrow / Symphony / Babylon, Time and Ghostlights tell a story and Moonglow is beginning another one.

And I agree, Moonglow is good, it's just "least-best". Ghostlights is where the stars aligned for me, I love the living shit out of that album.

I also agree about the lyrics, I don't even want literal characters speaking to each other, but I'd like to have a vague idea as well of what's going on.... I can't even put into words the "plot" for Moonglow, all I know is that it's supposed to be about a humunculus experiencing human nature or emotions or whatever.

[jingle.boy]

I thought I remember reading / hearing that TMOT/Ghostlights/Moonglow were at least loosely connected?

[425]

I also remember Moonglow being a new concept.

On the ranking of the different albums, my two favorite ones are Ghostlights and The Mystery of Time. IMO, those two have the most consistently strong songwriting. I don't understand the idea that TMoT was a retread of the Scarecrow albums at all—I think it's the one of the last three that is least like the Scarecrow trilogy.

After those two, it's probably The Wicked Symphony in third. I think it's clearly the best out of the trilogy. The Scarecrow has some really strong songs, but also some weaker ones.

Moonglow is probably fourth after TWS. It starts off really strong, but runs out of steam somewhat in the second half. I think part of that is the risk you run by putting the big epic in the first half of the album—I'd like to see him switch that pattern up a little bit. (Incidentally, that's a small way in which TMoT feels different to me. Both long songs are in the second half of the album, with one of them as the closer. Every other album besides the first Metal Opera has the longest song in the first half of the album.)

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Moonglow isn't bad, but (imo) it is the least-best of the three in that "trilogy".  And yah, SN... Tater is/was terrible, and Tobi made him sound pretty damned good.  If you're comparing him to late-80s/early-90s Tate, then you're right and will be disappointed.  If you compare Alchemy/Invincible to 2010s Tater, he sounds fantastic here.

For the record, I'm not comparing him to anything except other singers that sound good. I've only heard Operation Mindcrime once and don't remember anything about it, so I don't have any reference for what he's 'supposed' to sound like.

[wolfking]

I don't follow any of the concepts anyway so I wouldn't know, or care. 

[TAC]

I've only heard Operation Mindcrime once and don't remember anything about it,

[wolfking]

 

But yeah.....fuck.....it's....errr........one of greatest albums of all time, that's all.

[Bolsters]

I listened to it once, but I don't think I even made it all the way through.

[Melphina]

Y'all play too much. Mindcrime is classic.

[425]

I think Mindcrime is an album that sounds very 80s metal, so I don't think it should be surprising if people who aren't fans of that sound don't love Mindcrime.

Personally, I like the album, but it's not among my favorites, and I listen to it very rarely.

[ErHaO]

I think Tate sounds solid. He has a bit of a quirky/weird voice, but the songs suit him. Tobias has talent for that.

I think Mindcrime is an album that sounds very 80s metal, so I don't think it should be surprising if people who aren't fans of that sound don't love Mindcrime.

Personally, I like the album, but it's not among my favorites, and I listen to it very rarely.

This applies to me. I am usually just not very fond of 80's (metal) sound production. Operation Mindcrime falls right into that category.

[jingle.boy]

I listened to it once, but I don't think I even made it all the way through.

I think I remember this actually, because I'd debated sending you Suite Sister Mary in your roulette, then chickened out.  lol

[soupytwist]

Through tracks 1 - 8 Moonglow is fantastic....but those final 3 tracks (4 if you include 'Heart') let it down somewhat,  still think it's a mid tier album though.   Clearly Babylon is the weakest one - feels like a EP worth of material padded out with B-sides.

[Polarbear]

Through tracks 1 - 8 Moonglow is fantastic....but those final 3 tracks (4 if you include 'Heart') let it down somewhat,  still think it's a mid tier album though.   Clearly Babylon is the weakest one - feels like a EP worth of material padded out with B-sides.

Agree with all of this, especially the bolded part!

[cramx3]

Through tracks 1 - 8 Moonglow is fantastic....but those final 3 tracks (4 if you include 'Heart') let it down somewhat,  still think it's a mid tier album though.   Clearly Babylon is the weakest one - feels like a EP worth of material padded out with B-sides.

Agree with all of this, especially the bolded part!

Also agreed. 

[Evermind]

The Mystery of Time is better than Operation: Mindcrime

[cramx3]

The Mystery of Time is better than Operation: Mindcrime

Also agreed.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Even I'll agree with that.

[Melphina]

You all are off your meds.

[nick_z]

I've only heard Operation Mindcrime once and don't remember anything about it,

But yeah.....fuck.....it's....errr........one of greatest albums of all time, that's all.

Yep, I think I can subscribe to both of the above 

You all are off your meds.

 

[wolfking]

You all are off your meds.

Damn right!

[The Realm]

Sorry, I am confused. Are people in this thread trying to say The Mystery of Time is a better album than Operation Mindcrime? If so, then wow! Just wow! One of the greatest albums of all time (and probably my number 1 vocal performance of all time) v an above average power metal album. Sure I love Avantasia but sorry no album from Avantasia can compare against Mindcrime.

[cramx3]

I mean, not everyone loves Queensryche.  I'd hardly consider myself a fan, they are mostly just OK to my ears (OM is easily my favorite album of theirs though).  Avantasia are pretty good to my ears.  I think I'd rate a solid half of their discography to be better than anything QR has done... once again, to my ears. 

[425]

Sorry, I am confused. Are people in this thread trying to say The Mystery of Time is a better album than Operation Mindcrime? If so, then wow! Just wow! One of the greatest albums of all time (and probably my number 1 vocal performance of all time) v an above average power metal album. Sure I love Avantasia but sorry no album from Avantasia can compare against Mindcrime.

I sort of understand where you're coming from, but...

I think everyone has opinions like this. By which I mean, there are surely plenty of beloved classics in genres and styles that aren't your favorite that you would rank below above-average albums in your favorite genres. Like, I imagine there's some jazz or EDM or punk album that some people regard as one of the greatest albums of all time, but that you would put below an above-average prog metal album.

This is normal because when people talk about best and worst albums, they're largely talking about their own enjoyment of the music. They're usually not claiming that they've found some way of objectively evaluating music and that they have rated these albums accordingly (and if they are claiming that, I think they're almost definitely wrong). They're just saying, "I like the one better than the other."

Here's an exercise to illustrate this: Pick an album in your favorite genre that you'd call "above-average," go to the Rolling Stone 500 greatest albums list, and count how many entries you would rank below this above-average album. I think for all but the most diverse music-listeners, it's going to be a lot.


FWIW, I'd also put TMOT above O:M. And it's solely for the reason that I enjoy it more.

[The Realm]

That's all cool and I totally respect what you are saying but Mystery of Time and Mindcrime are pretty much from the same genre. Just to clarify my post when I called Mindcrime one of the greatest albums of all time, I did mean in the genre of metal/hard rock music not all of music as I don't think it would be universally accepted to be the case. It isn't like trying to compare The Beatles Revolver album against Mindcrime etc..Where I am coming from is that if you love Avantasia, and I know that you also love Iron Maiden then I have a hard time understanding how you couldn't love Mindcrime.

My situation is probably different to yours, in that I heard Mindcrime pretty much on release day in 1988 and it basically changed my life. I appreciate that you aren't coming at Mindcrime in the same way, however I just feel that Mindcrime has a far superior depth of story, great lyrics, emotional impact, awesome vocals, guitar playing etc that The Mystery of Time doesn't have.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Well, I don't care for the Beatles either.

But I guess I'm just saying that The Mystery of Time has a few great songs, as well as some watered down versions of a style I quite like, whereas Mindcrime failed to make an impression of any kind on me. I can't even make many comparisons with vocals or lyrics because I genuinely don't remember anything about it.