The official Avantasia and Edguy thread v Moonflower Society - Oct 21st

[Evermind]

PHAAATASMAGOOOORIA

The metal is all over the album. Wtf? Like every song except for Sleepwalking (which is an amazing ballad) and What's Left of Me (which is an amazing ballad) and The Great Mystery (which is honestly one of the best Catley songs) is metal. Spectres? Metal. Black Orchid? Metal. Saviour in the Clockwork? Fucking metal.

The decision to not involve Jorn in this album was brilliant. I like Jorn, but after The Wicked Symphony and Angel of Babylon, this was refreshing. Tobias brought together some of the underrated voices on the metal scene and got the best out of them. Biff Byford is fucking awesome on this album. He slays on both Black Orchid and Saviour in the Clockwork - which is, by the way, one of the best Avantasia songs ever and doesn't need to be shortened or fixed in any way.

And both What's Left of Me and The Great Mystery are fantastic heartfelt ballads. Just fucking amazing, and way better than Restless Heart and Obsidian Skies which sucked a lot. Overall, Tobias' songwriting on The Mystery of Time is just so inspired and refreshing. That's something that was missing on Ghostlights for me, I felt like he was just writing the same piece he did on The Wicked Trilogy. The Mystery of Time sounded fresh. Ghostlights sounded familiar and boring.

I know all the album's lyrics by heart and this is my shower-singing album if I have one. Just a brilliant piece of music. Honestly, if not for The Metal Opera Pt. 1 which is amazing and was my introduction to the power metal scene, I would say this might be my favourite Avantasia album on par with The Scarecrow. I love this record.

[The Walrus]

Evermind, you're killing me here. I'm trying so hard to find common ground on this one but it's cracking beneath my feet  Nah, really it's cool to see such a different opinion on this. The decision to take a different approach with the singers is interesting and brave for sure. My biggest issue is with the lyrics honestly. It's as if Tobi has given up on his once poetic lyricism in favor of ambiguous lines that really don't mean anything, and now he favors the use of 'big' words that lack all poetry and romance, such as...

"Welcome to the aftermath of the incidents that made the towers fall"
"We must finalize the giant to level off the void and zeroize the will"
"The tongue of nations brought the line, reason occupied: the God-machine"
"I envision how you lie awake and agonize over ways to bear your day just every night, re-alignment you're in need of so imploringly"
"I can feel and hear and see but I won't comprehend; I see fire that I won't decipher"
"If you don't follow your self- preservation drive"

bruh. WTF happened to the beautiful lyrics he used to write    (EDIT: Specifically I mean his work with Edguy. Even the later stuff has more meaningful lyrics in my opinion, but back in the day before he was taking the piss out of power metal, his Edguy lyrics were phenomenal. Savage Poetry, Mandrake, Theater of Salvation, man he was on fire.)

[Kwyjibo]

I agree with almost everything evermind said, except for the bits about Ghostlight. I think Mystery of Time is a great record and I like it a lot. And there's enough metal on there imo.

And for the lyrics, I don't really care and found Tobi's lyrics non-comprehending right from the start. What was the story of the metal operas about? But mostly they fit the melody and mood of the songs and are great to sing along to.  I'm content with that.

[The Walrus]

And for the lyrics, I don't really care and found Tobi's lyrics non-comprehending right from the start. What was the story of the metal operas about? But mostly they fit the melody and mood of the songs and are great to sing along to.  I'm content with that.

Basically about Gabriel going to get his step-sister Anna or whoever from a fantasy realm he accesses through a mystic portal opened by a wizard to the world of Avantasia.  Okay, not much better, but hey, it's a start. Scarecrow trilogy is something something misfit rocker, something something delusions of grandeur, Mystery of Time however I have absolutely no clue. Honestly. Someone clue me in!

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I think Tobi's best lyrical work was the Scarecrow trilogy. Metal Opera is too 'character says this, character does that' and is pretty cheesy besides, and I'll admit I find Mystery of Time and Ghostlights pretty much incomprehensible, but the other three had a pretty nice balance, not being overly literal but still clear enough that you can get the gist of the story. Even if Tobi does still have the occasional odd phrases, like, what does he think a 'funny flower' is?

I also don't understand thinking that Mystery of Time sounds fresh and Ghostlights doesn't. To me, Mystery of Time sounds like the same stuff as the last three only less inspired and with worse singers, whereas Ghostlights did a lot of new stuff and did it with better singers, Geoff Tate notwithstanding.

[Evermind]

Evermind, you're killing me here. I'm trying so hard to find common ground on this one but it's cracking beneath my feet  Nah, really it's cool to see such a different opinion on this. The decision to take a different approach with the singers is interesting and brave for sure. My biggest issue is with the lyrics honestly. It's as if Tobi has given up on his once poetic lyricism in favor of ambiguous lines that really don't mean anything, and now he favors the use of 'big' words that lack all poetry and romance, such as...

"Welcome to the aftermath of the incidents that made the towers fall"
"We must finalize the giant to level off the void and zeroize the will"
"The tongue of nations brought the line, reason occupied: the God-machine"
"I envision how you lie awake and agonize over ways to bear your day just every night, re-alignment you're in need of so imploringly"
"I can feel and hear and see but I won't comprehend; I see fire that I won't decipher"
"If you don't follow your self- preservation drive"

bruh. WTF happened to the beautiful lyrics he used to write    (EDIT: Specifically I mean his work with Edguy. Even the later stuff has more meaningful lyrics in my opinion, but back in the day before he was taking the piss out of power metal, his Edguy lyrics were phenomenal. Savage Poetry, Mandrake, Theater of Salvation, man he was on fire.)

Look, I'm not disagreeing on the lyrics, in fact I'm surprised that "swinging blade of the lowering perpendicular" didn't make your list. The lyrics are hilarious and don't make sense at all. But at least there are no Babylon Vampires or devil or lucifer or whatever on this album. The music is where it's at.

[The Walrus]

I'LL TAKE YOU HOME TONIGHT  ... down beside that red firelight... 

[jingle.boy]

I'm tending more to the Katt side of my opinion of this album vs the Evermind/Bosk (cuz I know he adores this one) side.  For the most part, TMOT is just 'there' for me.  It's neither good nor bad.  I pretty much enjoy all tunes - I can't think of any that make me cringe, or any that get any rise out of me.  I'll spin it later today/tomorrow to see if that still holds, as it's been a long time since I reached for this one.

Ruslan... we're gonna have to have words when we formally get to the Ghostlights discussion. 

[Evermind]

Look, it's just great that we can enjoy different Avantasia albums. This band rocks.

[The Walrus]

Yup. All quibbles aside, I'm just glad one of my favorite songwriters (Tobi) continues making music. I'm just so critical cause I love his work so much. I'm so happy Avantasia has taken off and tons of people are enjoying it.

[MirrorMask]

Great album, but I'm in the camp of those who prefer Ghostlights over this one.

Spectres is a brilliant opener and The Great Mystery is a MAJESTIC closer (one of Tobi's best songs ever, it's too reductive to call it a ballad, it's an epic tune and it's gorgeous and bombastic and heartfelt and awesome), better than how Ghostlights start and end, it's just that everything in between is not as strong as on Ghostlights.

Still, it's not that I dislike the album, I like it - it's just "another" Avantasia album, the bar is so incredibly high with this band, that even an album that would blow out many other band's discographies can sound relatively "meh" compared to the rest.

I agree with Evermind about What's Left of Me, awesome song. The other stuff is good (Black Orchid, When Clock Hands Freeze...) but it didn't have a lasting impact on me. Still, not a really bad song on this (don't care for Sleepwalking however), it's just that I feel that Ghostlights came out way better.

[Evermind]

I really feel that What's Left of Me is one of the best and honest ballads Tobias wrote. The lyrics really drive that one home. There are no similar songs in his Avantasia discography.

The Great Mystery is a unique song in Tobias' discography too. Never ever he managed to write anything like it to close off the album. This is the allbum closer for me, and nothing before and nothing since has been even in that ballpark.

[cramx3]

Great album, but I'm in the camp of those who prefer Ghostlights over this one.

Same, but this is my second favorite of theirs, really awesome album.  Not a bad song here. 

[wolfking]

As time goes by, this album is creeping up my fav list.  It's aged so damn well.

[Logain Ablar]

Really strong album, IMO. Second only to Ghostlights, which has the Jorn factor.

Excellent opener and closer with Spectres and TGM. Some highlights for me are:

Black Orchid - just love that plodding groove
Invoke The Machine - this is a funny one, as normally the full-on power metal thing is a put-off for me, but this is great. The breakdown at 3:25 is immense, especially when it kicks back in. I can just imagine the reaction of the crowd when this is played live. 

If I had to pick some weak links, they'd be:

The Watchmaker's Dream, for the very strange "Welcome to the aftermath.." lyrics as mentioned above.
What's Left Of Me. This is an ok song, but just feels out of place to me in context of the rest of the album.

[jingle.boy]

Just re-listened.

Spectres, Watchmakers - top shelf; great 1-2 opening punch
Black Orchid, Where Clock Hands Freeze, Dweller - 10lbs of 'meh' in a 5lb bucket
Sleepwalking, What's Left of Me - serviceable ballads; I really liked the latter live - Eric does much better live than in studio
Savior, The Great Mystery - two excellent 'epic' tracks, but still in the lower tier of Tobi's inventory of 'epics'.
Invoke the Machine - excellent.  I love everything that Ronnie does with Avantasia

[TAC]

I love this album. When Clock Hands Freeze might be my favorite Kiske track for Avantasia.
Savior In The Clockwork is easily by far my favorite Avantasia track on any album, and was my SOTY.

Having Biff Byford on this was fantastic. And what Tobi did with Joe Lynn Turner was miraculous.

[Grappler]

This album sucks.  I rarely listen to it - why put it on when I have the albums that came before and after it?  I went through it a bit yesterday and the guitars just have no meat to them.  Some of the songs are fun - Spectres, When Clock Hands Freeze and Invoke the Machine, but they'd be better if the riffs were beefed up and heavier. 

Bring on Ghostlights, please.   

[The Walrus]

This album sucks.

My man, finally some reason. 

[jingle.boy]

I love this album. When Clock Hands Freeze might be my favorite Kiske track for Avantasia.

I'm gonna pull a TAC....

When Clock Hands Freeze fucking blows.  I was just being nice above.  That's one of those songs that Kiske must've been thinking 'what the hell am I doing on this tripe?'.  It's like great actors being part of awful movies... they know it sucks, but they have a mortgage and/or alimony payments to make.

[TAC]

[Evermind]

I love this album. When Clock Hands Freeze might be my favorite Kiske track for Avantasia.

I'm gonna pull a TAC....

When Clock Hands Freeze fucking blows.  I was just being nice above.  That's one of those songs that Kiske must've been thinking 'what the hell am I doing on this tripe?'.  It's like great actors being part of awful movies... they know it sucks, but they have a mortgage and/or alimony payments to make.

That's kinda how I feel about Let the Storm Descend Upon You, so I guess we're even.

[jingle.boy]

I love this album. When Clock Hands Freeze might be my favorite Kiske track for Avantasia.

I'm gonna pull a TAC....

When Clock Hands Freeze fucking blows.  I was just being nice above.  That's one of those songs that Kiske must've been thinking 'what the hell am I doing on this tripe?'.  It's like great actors being part of awful movies... they know it sucks, but they have a mortgage and/or alimony payments to make.

That's kinda how I feel about Let the Storm Descend Upon You, so I guess we're even.

Except Kiske doesn't sing on Let the Storm Descend.   

[Evermind]

Well, yeah, I meant generally. Jorn's parts are especially bad. "Keep on dreaming, keep on screaming, yeeeeeah", "I'm illusion or truth, I'm confusion, yeeeeah". I honestly can't stand those. It's a shame really, because I was really looking forward to the song when it was announced.

[The Walrus]

I love this album. When Clock Hands Freeze might be my favorite Kiske track for Avantasia.

I'm gonna pull a TAC....

When Clock Hands Freeze fucking blows.  I was just being nice above.  That's one of those songs that Kiske must've been thinking 'what the hell am I doing on this tripe?'.  It's like great actors being part of awful movies... they know it sucks, but they have a mortgage and/or alimony payments to make.

You are high as a fucking kite. 

[jingle.boy]

Where Clock Hands Freeze is another Kiske classic although I do feel it's half-baked at times

Who are you calling high??

[wolfking]

I love this album. When Clock Hands Freeze might be my favorite Kiske track for Avantasia.

I'm gonna pull a TAC....

When Clock Hands Freeze fucking blows.  I was just being nice above.  That's one of those songs that Kiske must've been thinking 'what the hell am I doing on this tripe?'.  It's like great actors being part of awful movies... they know it sucks, but they have a mortgage and/or alimony payments to make.

It could be one of my fav Avantasia Kiske tracks too.  Perfect power metal.

[Lowdz]

Well, yeah, I meant generally. Jorn's parts are especially bad. "Keep on dreaming, keep on screaming, yeeeeeah", "I'm illusion or truth, I'm confusion, yeeeeah". I honestly can't stand those. It's a shame really, because I was really looking forward to the song when it was announced.

Sounds like lyrics from any Jorn album tbh

[TAC]

I love this album. When Clock Hands Freeze might be my favorite Kiske track for Avantasia.

I'm gonna pull a TAC....

When Clock Hands Freeze fucking blows.  I was just being nice above.  That's one of those songs that Kiske must've been thinking 'what the hell am I doing on this tripe?'.  It's like great actors being part of awful movies... they know it sucks, but they have a mortgage and/or alimony payments to make.

It could be one of my fav Avantasia Kiske tracks too.  Perfect power metal.

Kade, there's no point in reasoning with Chad.

[The Walrus]

1. Mystery of a Blood Red Rose
2. Let the Storm Descend Upon You
3. The Haunting
4. Seduction of Decay
5. Ghostlights
6. Draconian Love
7. Master of the Pendulum
8. Isle of Evermore
9. Babylon Vampyres
10. Lucifer
11. Unchain the Light
12. A Restless Heart and Obsidian Skies

Lineup:

Tobias Sammet   Vocals (as Aaron Blackwell), Bass (additional), Keyboards (additional)
Sascha Paeth   Guitars (lead, rhythm), Bass, Keyboards
Michael Rodenberg   Keyboards, Orchestrations

Guest musicians:

Herbie Langhans   Vocals (as Eclipse) (track 6)
Robert Mason   Vocals (as Scientist I) (tracks 2, 9)
Bruce Kulick   Guitars (lead) (tracks 9, 10, 12)
Oliver Hartmann   Guitars (lead) (tracks 2, 5, 9 , 11)
Felix Bohnke   Drums
Dee Snider   Vocals (as Nightmare) (track 3)
Geoff Tate   Vocals (as Scientist II) (track 4)
Marco Hietala   Vocals (as The Watchmaker) (track 7)
Sharon den Adel   Vocals (as Muse) (track 8)
Michael Kiske   Vocals (as Mystic) (tracks 5, 11)
Ronnie Atkins   Vocals (as Magician) (tracks 2, 11)
Bob Catley   Vocals (as Spirit) (track 12)
Jørn Lande   Vocals (as Temptation) (tracks 2, 5, 10)

It's been fun revisiting all the Avantasia albums. Next week we'll finally have Moonglow, and I hope it rocks and that everybody enjoys it to some extent. I'm excited.

Ghostlights is a proper return to form for Avantasia, to me. It's got variety (variety that works, at that), a great lineup of guest singers, and a whole lot of power metal with actual momentum and energy. This album sounds very inspired to my ears.

Mystery of a Blood Red Rose kind of exemplifies what I love about this album so much: spirited vocal performances and great melodies. Every single song has them in my opinion. The weak link might be The Haunting - Dee Snider isn't anywhere close to the level of almost everyone else here and sticks out like a sore thumb but it's still really cool to hear him and the rest of the diverse lineup here all on one album together.

Let The Storm Descend Upon You freaking rocks. The lyrics are super bad but the chorus is undeniably amazing so it gets a pass for being so awesome in the first and last sections. Kind of like Gamma Ray's Heading For Tomorrow.

Seduction of Decay - incredible vocals. Geoff Tate slays this song. I love everything about this one. Draconian Love is another favorite of mine with a really cool unique vibe and one of the best hooks on the album. 

Ghostlights, Unchain the Light, Lucifer, Babylon Vampyres and Master of the Pendulum - all power metal classics, my biggest complaint is the vibe Babylon Vampyres has. It's like that last big happy song in a musical just before the finale. Really corny stuff but so fun. The title track and Master of the Pendulum are two of the best power metal songs Tobi's written in many years in my opinion. Isle of Evermore is kinda whatever but there's been far worse. And I really like A Restless Heart and Obsidian Skies. That's one song with great lyrics.

Amazing album this one, will certainly not be seen the same way by those who like Mystery of Time more - not that there's anything wrong with that To me this is easily one of the best albums Tobias Sammet has ever written. I really hope Moonglow can match the bar it set.

[Evermind]

Yeah, this one is pretty meh for me. Still, there are some good songs - the title track and Lucifer are fantastic. Mystery of a Blood Red Rose is a fun little tune, and I also like Seduction of Decay and Unchain the Light.

Also, if not for the liner notes, I never would've guessed that the singer on Draconian Love and on the entire Beyond the Bridge album is the same guy, Herbie is fantastic.

[cramx3]

My favorite album of theirs.  Every song is solid here, I'd say Isle of Evermore is easily my least favorite though.  Unchain the Light is probably my favorite of their I guess more typical power metal songs, it's just so fun.  I love the chorus of Draconian Love, that song is so catchy.  Hard to stop singing it once I hear it.  Jorn is back and it makes a difference for me between this and Mystery, he is just my favorite of the regular guests.  Lucifer with him is fantastic, also his parts in Let the Storm Descend Upon You  He slayed the material live as well. 

Also, the bonus track is a solid tune too with a few of the regular guests.

[Polarbear]

Ghostlights to me sounds a bit tired.

There are some great tunes, like the title track. But then there is stuff like Seduction of Decay, Isle of Evermore and the epic. Let the Storm Descend Upon You drags on for way longer than it needs to. Some great stuff, but also some bad stuff.

I much prefer The Mystery of Time, which to me sounded like a breath of fresh air, after Angel of Babylon.

[MirrorMask]

"Ghostlights is a proper return to form for Avantasia, to me. It's got variety (variety that works, at that), a great lineup of guest singers, and a whole lot of power metal with actual momentum and energy. This album sounds very inspired to my ears."

Couldn't agree more! the album is awesome, I love it and I appreciate it way better than The Mystery of Time, which is still good, but doesn't hold a candle against this one.

Mystery is a fun short opener, I would have been curious to hear Meat Loaf singing it but it works fine too this way. Annoying nonsense lyrics but the chorus is catchy at least 

Let the Storm Descend Upon You is kickass, with a wonderful chorus, and it's a great Avantasia epic as any. Love the bridge with the "Ooooh, you know that's where I've been too... there's nothing but a void, out for the sanity of fools"... and then WHLAAAMM the chorus kicks in with all its wonderful majesty 

I love also The Haunting, sure, the "horror song" may be becoming a bit of a clichè but Dee Snider does an unexpected well job at playing an evil spirit in such a theatrical way, I love this kind of stuff!

Seduction of Decay is good, I like-it-but-don't-love-it but then OMG, what a trio of songs arrive! The title track is power metal at its best, it's almost funny how the vocal lines are so high that are almost unintelligible but the chorus is glorious. Love also the variation at the end, when Jorn comes in for a small part and then it goes on into the "They're speaking to me, yelling at me" part.

Then we have the outrageously catchy Draconian Love, a very well made detour into hard rock / gothic territories, and then the song with one of the better choruses of all, Master of the Pendulum, great job from Marco Hietala 

From then on the album goes on to less stellar songs, still worth to mention the final part of Babylon Vampyres ("Ever since I can remember..." etc) and of course Lucifer, a little gem that maybe should have been longer. The final song is by now the classic Catley song, but nothing honestly could have rivaled with the absolute perfection and grandiosity of The Great Mystery, one of Tobi's crowning achievements.

Wonderful album and I hope Moonlight continues in this vein, offering of course something new!

[wolfking]

Great album.  Although when this was released, I thought it was miles better than Mystery, but today I think Mystery is miles better than Ghostlights