"Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT

[rumborak]

I think Mike even says in one of the interviews that he thinks it was probably due to James' voice that the band never got any big mainstream success.

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't recall seeing that anywhere.  Are you positive Mike said that?

I remember reading that too, might even be in Lifting.... He IIRC said that one of the reasons they were considering canning JLB around SDOIT was because his singing style was so dated.

rumborak

[Samsara]

bosk - I know I've read stuff on here where it was said James was annoyed/disappointed that he was not involved with the creation process behind BCSL.

[bosk1]

I think poll results here pretty well indicate many fans would like him to tone it down.

You mean because 81 out of literally thousands of DT fans voted on a poll that didn't allow for "feels just about right," and 66 of those thousands of fans (including me, who loves the vast majority of the MP vocals) felt "less" was a better option than "more?"

[Samsara]

I think poll results here pretty well indicate many fans would like him to tone it down.

You mean because 81 out of literally thousands of DT fans voted on a poll that didn't allow for "feels just about right," and 66 of those thousands of fans (including me, who loves the vast majority of the MP vocals) felt "less" was a better option than "more?"

Even if half the "less" people voted "just about right," it still proves the point I was making.  At least on the scale of hardcores on this board...and I'd bet if the entire casual DT fan fan base voted, there would be WAY more "less" votes.

[Nick]

If the poll was close, it would be one thing, but it's a simple poll and although we certainly are not a super representative cut of the fanbase I'd say we can be somewhat accurate, and from what I've seen in this thread and in real life is that Mike could do well to tone it down just a bit.

[bosk1]

I think Mike even says in one of the interviews that he thinks it was probably due to James' voice that the band never got any big mainstream success.

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't recall seeing that anywhere.  Are you positive Mike said that?

I remember reading that too, might even be in Lifting.... He IIRC said that one of the reasons they were considering canning JLB around SDOIT was because his singing style was so dated.

rumborak

Like I said, I might be mistaken on that one, but I don't recall seeing it in Lifting Shadows or anywhere else.

bosk - I know I've read stuff on here where it was said James was annoyed/disappointed that he was not involved with the creation process behind BCSL.

Do you have a source?  Not saying it didn't happen, but I have not seen anything to that effect.  

[Nick]

James pretty much said that it just so happened to work out that he didn't really get involved on Black Clouds and both he and the band decided that was OK.

[bodiesinflight]

I don't think he's used effectively enough. He should always (dunno if this is case or not) be consulted on vocal lines and if he thinks the music could be altered to better fit his vocals he should say so.

Is there any indication that this is the case? I mean, his vocals on BC&SL are the best they've been for years, and even with SC he himself he had more fun recording it than any other DT album.

The fact that on some recent songs (I'm looking at likes of TSF and CM here) James sounds pretty uncomfortable singing the songs, they don't suit his style that well imo.

However he may well have been fully consulted, I'm not saying he wasn't just saying he always should be

[Samsara]

James pretty much said that it just so happened to work out that he didn't really get involved on Black Clouds and both he and the band decided that was OK.

No, he said that that wouldn't happen again, that he'd be involved.

bosk - my source is DTF. I read it here, as I don't read anything DT related anywhere else (other than blabbercrap, but that stuff is posted here anyway).

[robwebster]

Well, although I agree with most of the points Bosk just made, I think poll results here pretty well indicate many fans would like him to tone it down.

No, it doesn't. It indicates that more of them would prefer him to tone it down than to wap it up.

[Cool Chris]

https://dreamtheaterbook.com/extracts.html

“At this point in the game, and this is me being totally honest, it comes down to me realizing that I can contribute to melodies, and I can contribute lyrics but I’m not going to be busting down a door to do so. I think when you get older, you’re not so driven through pride or ego, and you start to think to yourself what is it that we are trying to accomplish here? And if the end result still comes out sounding great, then so be it. I think with John and Mike, they realize that I could contribute to the melodies and lyrics. In fact there was a communication breakdown because I guess the way it was first talked about it was going to be ‘OK, you guys go for it. Write the melodies, write the lyrics, and you just do it. I’m going to sit back here and I’ll see you when I come down to sing.’ But then John Petrucci contacted me and said to me ‘Are you writing lyrics for this particular song?’ And I was like ‘What? What are you talking about?’ So there was a bit of a communication breakdown there but needless to say it worked out in the end. I mean granted, there is a lot of controversy out there about why didn’t James contribute this or that. Well it’s not that James isn’t willing to but it just comes down to how the process unfolded and what was communicated throughout the band. At the end of the day, if it’s going to be then it will be. I’m fine with that because I’m not a man in his twenties any more saying ‘Wait a minute, you have to have me in there otherwise this is bullshit.’”

Although James takes a pragmatic approach when viewing his place and role within the band, he clearly retains a desire to be involved at a deeper level on future albums as he explains.

“I did have a conversation with John and Mike and said ‘OK, this is how this one unfolded, but with the next album guys? No way’,” he says firmly. “I don’t want to be sitting back and not wanting to contribute the melody and lyrics for the songs. This was how this album unfolded, and that’s cool, but on the next one I don’t want to see this go down. And it wasn’t said in an aggressive manner. It wasn’t a case of, you know, screw you and all that kind of stuff. It was just mentioned so that it is known that ‘Hey you know what guys? I’m passionate about melodies too. I’m passionate about lyrics as well.’ And that, quite simply, has to be considered. Period.”

[robwebster]

here's the thing. I said this in a separate thread ToX created as well in the Gen. Music section.

One of the distinct characteristics of DT is the operatic vocal style of James LaBrie. It is a strength of the band. In most bands, from what I have observed over the years, bands write the music to the style and strength of their singers. DREAM THEATER USED TO DO THAT. THEY DO NOT ALWAYS DO THAT NOW.

That, IMO, is a big, big problem.

Tell that to Queen. They had arguably the best vocalist around, yet the other guys still got involved. Yet somehow Freddie's still managed to make an impression. Wonder why that is.

[bosk1]

EDIT:  Thanks to Cool Chris for posting that quote.  Yeah, that seems to be exactly what Nick was saying.  

[robwebster]

I think poll results here pretty well indicate many fans would like him to tone it down.

You mean because 81 out of literally thousands of DT fans voted on a poll that didn't allow for "feels just about right," and 66 of those thousands of fans (including me, who loves the vast majority of the MP vocals) felt "less" was a better option than "more?"

Even if half the "less" people voted "just about right," it still proves the point I was making.  At least on the scale of hardcores on this board...and I'd bet if the entire casual DT fan fan base voted, there would be WAY more "less" votes.

Why? What is that based on? That's just a massive assumption!

Look, their fanbase is increasing. Wildly. Each album is significantly more successful than the last. Look at how much more of an impression Black Clouds made than Systematic Chaos. And how much more Systematic made than Octavarium. They're growing year-on-year and ever more people are flocking to the CD shops on release-week because they want to see what this band are producing now.

On top of that, they're respected massively by their peers. Iron Maiden are asking them to tour with them. Brian May loves Black Clouds and Silver Linings! He wrote a damn blog about how impressed he was with Dream Theater. Kicking himself for not listening to 'em before. Mikael Akerfeldt digs them. These aren't talentless hacks, they're people who actually know a little bit about music and they seem to think they're doing a.o.k. So why would you assume that everyone's jaded, and if they're not they're a ruddy fence-sitter?

They're actually quite a good band. People connect with their music, and stay loyal. I don't really think they need tips from anyone on how to cater to their fanbase.



Also, keep in mind that Systematic Chaos was their most successful tour. I didn't see many people sighing any of the times I've caught them playing Constant Motion - one of his gruffest performances.

[bosk1]

I was about to say we should split the post of the year awards into two:  one for the DT-side and one for GD-side posts.  Then I realized Rob would likely win both, so what's the point? 

[Samsara]

Rob,

Kindly read the entire thread. I am not wasting my time typing everything out to you.

[robwebster]

I would, but I've already read it once, and it wasn't very good. Really thin on plot, and it had a rubbish ending. Just trails off.

Besides, they're fresh points.

I was about to say we should split the post of the year awards into two:  one for the DT-side and one for GD-side posts.  Then I realized Rob would likely win both, so what's the point?  

Hahaha, thanks, but nooo, there are people FAR funnier than me in GD. And I only make such big posts on DT-side 'cause I take everything too seriously.

[Samsara]

I would, but I've already read it once, and it wasn't very good. Really thin on plot, and it had a rubbish ending. Just trails off.

Besides, they're fresh points.

Guys like you are the ones that make forums go downhill. Don't put down other peoples' opinions you don't agree with. No rubbish and the plot isn't thin at all.

Perhaps you're just sensitive to something you don't like reading. You wouldn't be the first, and you certainly won't be the last.

[robwebster]

Easy tiger!

I made a (relatively) intelligent assessment of the fanbase, a silly joke about the thread being some kind of book (of course it doesn't have a plot! It's not a story! Did I need a badum-tssh? Would it have helped if I'd said I couldn't visualise the characters? Or if I'd suggested that I'd rather be reading Harry Potter?), and you still refuse to give an actual response to any of the perfectly valid things I've suggested?

I'm inviting you to disagree with me! That's why I responded! I'd send you some kind of anonymous email if I didn't want you responding. Or I'd write it on a website! Heck, if I were that petty I'd call it www.fuckyousamsarayoubastard.com! Chin up. You've still got your health.

[bosk1]

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Sorry, no Web results were found for www.fuckyousamsarayoubastard.com!

[robwebster]

Haha, see, there you go. No horrible diatribes or petty namecalling or nuffink. Slab of pure 404.

It's a discussion board. Let's discuss things!

[ariich]

I would, but I've already read it once, and it wasn't very good. Really thin on plot, and it had a rubbish ending. Just trails off.

Besides, they're fresh points.

Guys like you are the ones that make forums go downhill. Don't put down other peoples' opinions you don't agree with. No rubbish and the plot isn't thin at all.

Perhaps you're just sensitive to something you don't like reading. You wouldn't be the first, and you certainly won't be the last.

Wtf Sam, he made a lot of good points.

Correct about the JLB stuff though, and thanks Chris for posting that extract. I remember when that was originally posted, and I got the impression then (and still do) that JLB wasn't deliberately left out of the process, it just so happened that this time the timetables worked out that he wasn't as involved. Which he was ok with as a one-off, but as the extract shows, he wants to be included going forward, and I can't see any reason whatsoever why that wouldn't be the case.

[Perpetual Change]

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't recall seeing that anywhere.  Are you positive Mike said that?

I remember reading it in the Lifting Shadows book where they talk about 6DOIT.  Not sure about page numbers.

I don't think that is the case at all.  Most of the fans I've heard way in on the issue do like what Mike did.  So, no, I don't think "most" fans are turned off, so in turn, I don't think he would have any such realization.

Mike said he already "knew" that ANTR would cause controversy, and I can't think of any polls that were held about his vocal section in that song (or his growl vocals in general) on here or MP.com where people who actually liked Mike growls lost by anything less than a huge margin like this one.  I used to count myself with the people who liked Mike's tough-guy vocals, but now it feels like he needs to do them in EVERY heavy song.  It wasn't that way in the old days.  It wasn't that way even on ToT.  Why does it have to be that way now?  Though I do think he brings a lot of the music, I could do with about half as many MP vocals in DT music.

[hefdaddy42]

here's the thing. I said this in a separate thread ToX created as well in the Gen. Music section.

One of the distinct characteristics of DT is the operatic vocal style of James LaBrie. It is a strength of the band. In most bands, from what I have observed over the years, bands write the music to the style and strength of their singers. DREAM THEATER USED TO DO THAT. THEY DO NOT ALWAYS DO THAT NOW.

That, IMO, is a big, big problem.

Tell that to Queen. They had arguably the best vocalist around, yet the other guys still got involved. Yet somehow Freddie's still managed to make an impression. Wonder why that is.

In all fairness, Queen isn't DT.  You're comparing apples to oranges.

Also:

Sorry, we couldn't find www.fuckyousamsarayoubastard.com entered.

[orcus116]

Look, their fanbase is increasing. Wildly. Each album is significantly more successful than the last. Look at how much more of an impression Black Clouds made than Systematic Chaos. And how much more Systematic made than Octavarium. They're growing year-on-year and ever more people are flocking to the CD shops on release-week because they want to see what this band are producing now.

I'm trying to word why I think this is a huge stretch but I just can't. I think it's the word wildly that's bugging me because I've never overheard someone going "hey have you checked out Dream Theater yet?", like, ever.

[Samsara]

Sorry, we couldn't find www.fuckyousamsarayoubastard.com entered.

Yep, that's pretty much what good ole Rob is saying, without actually saying it. Maturity and willingness to debate intelligently at its finest. 

[ariich]

Look, their fanbase is increasing. Wildly. Each album is significantly more successful than the last. Look at how much more of an impression Black Clouds made than Systematic Chaos. And how much more Systematic made than Octavarium. They're growing year-on-year and ever more people are flocking to the CD shops on release-week because they want to see what this band are producing now.

I'm trying to word why I think this is a huge stretch but I just can't. I think it's the word wildly that's bugging me because I've never overheard someone going "hey have you checked out Dream Theater yet?", like, ever.

Really? Maybe it depends on where you are but certainly in the UK the band are getting a bigger and bigger following, and I overhear people mentioning them or see them wearing their t-shirts more and more every year.

Sorry, we couldn't find www.fuckyousamsarayoubastard.com entered.

Yep, that's pretty much what good ole Rob is saying, without actually saying it. Maturity and willingness to debate intelligently at its finest. 

From the fact that you can't tell that Rob is joking around, I can only assume that you've never read any of his posts before?

[robwebster]

Yep, that's pretty much what good ole Rob is saying, without actually saying it. Maturity and willingness to debate intelligently at its finest.  

Okay. I'm going to just take a few steps backward, and then quickly make a dash for it. You're right! Congratulations. I couldn't understand your objections less if you were writing in Sanskrit. Which you might be.

(Note to self: Check if Google Translate has a Sanskrit function. Okay, now I am being cheeky.)

I'm trying to word why I think this is a huge stretch but I just can't. I think it's the word wildly that's bugging me because I've never overheard someone going "hey have you checked out Dream Theater yet?", like, ever.

It happens! I don't like to use fandom as a meter, but check out the "When did you discover Dream Theater" polls. Big spike at Images, then a drop, then they start to really gain momentum at about Train of Thought. People dig Dream Theater. More and more.

53rd to 36th to 19th to 6th isn't exactly baby steps. They're exploding. Booming! Like MP's vocals.

Really? Maybe it depends on where you are but certainly in the UK the band are getting a bigger and bigger following, and I overhear people mentioning them or see them wearing their t-shirts more and more every year.

This is true. I keep on bumping into Dream Theater fans, actually. I seem to attract them. Lots of girls, too, even more surprisingly! Actually, might even be mostly girls, I haven't counted. Nice to bump into DT fans. Exciting.

[Perpetual Change]

Look, their fanbase is increasing. Wildly. Each album is significantly more successful than the last. Look at how much more of an impression Black Clouds made than Systematic Chaos. And how much more Systematic made than Octavarium. They're growing year-on-year and ever more people are flocking to the CD shops on release-week because they want to see what this band are producing now.

I'm trying to word why I think this is a huge stretch but I just can't. I think it's the word wildly that's bugging me because I've never overheard someone going "hey have you checked out Dream Theater yet?", like, ever.

Weird.  I've seen this a lot more often lately, mostly on campus.  This is the first time in my life I've met other people who are into DT for some reason other than me forcing it on them.

[bosk1]

I keep on bumping into Dream Theater fans, actually. I seem to attract them. Lots of girls, too, even more surprisingly! Actually, might even be mostly girls, I haven't counted. Nice to bump into DT fans. Exciting.

Okay, and here I thought you were telling the truth until that little exhibition.  I call b.s., mister!

[robwebster]

I keep on bumping into Dream Theater fans, actually. I seem to attract them. Lots of girls, too, even more surprisingly! Actually, might even be mostly girls, I haven't counted. Nice to bump into DT fans. Exciting.

Okay, and here I thought you were telling the truth until that little exhibition.  I call b.s., mister!

Haha, I know! But no, seriously! Even met one a couple of weeks ago, actually. Goes to my uni, turns out she went to the same gig as me on the Chaos in Motion tour! World's gone crazy.

[ariich]

I keep on bumping into Dream Theater fans, actually. I seem to attract them. Lots of girls, too, even more surprisingly! Actually, might even be mostly girls, I haven't counted. Nice to bump into DT fans. Exciting.

Okay, and here I thought you were telling the truth until that little exhibition.  I call b.s., mister!

No really it's true. When I tell people about the forum (it comes up in conversation occasionally), when they asked what it's for, 5 years ago if I said Dream Theater people never had a clue what I was talking about, so I started settling for "oh just a band you won't have heard of". In the last couple of years I've actually been able to say the name and people, even girls, tend to at the very least have heard of them, and are sometimes casual or even big fans. Happened with a couple of my new colleagues recently, was a pretty cool moment.

[Samsara]

[/quote]From the fact that you can't tell that Rob is joking around, I can only assume that you've never read any of his posts before?
[/quote]

A - nope. Not really. This is the first time I really passionately posted in the actual DTF section of the board, all day long. So no, I couldn't tell he was joking. Didn't seem like it to me. Sorta weird to have someone joking when we were talking about something fairly intently. Throws off the "train of thought" as it were.

Not sure that was on purpose (which in my line of work, people do that when they aren't comfortable with defending the opposite side of a position), or if it was totally innocent, but I am not familiar with Rob at all or his posts, so I have no past history with him to have known either way.

[Perpetual Change]

I keep on bumping into Dream Theater fans, actually. I seem to attract them. Lots of girls, too, even more surprisingly! Actually, might even be mostly girls, I haven't counted. Nice to bump into DT fans. Exciting.

Okay, and here I thought you were telling the truth until that little exhibition.  I call b.s., mister!

No, it's true. At one of Nick's recent shows, there were at least two girls in the chat room. One was my girlfriend.  The other was Nick's girlfriend.  And everyone always remembers those hot chicks who come in from time to time asking to chat with dudes with webcams.

[ariich]

@Samsara: Ah ok, that would probably explain the confusion then. Trust me, Rob is a really fun, very nice guy, and really isn't the sort of person to be as bitchy as he probably came across if you don't know his humour.

That said, he still made some good points in reply #83