Poll

Do you want more or less "growl-style" lead vocals from Mike Portnoy in future Dream Theater albums?

More
34 (21.9%)
Less
121 (78.1%)

Total Members Voted: 149

Author Topic: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT  (Read 25627 times)

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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #140 on: March 10, 2010, 11:30:03 AM »
That already exists.  There's progressive, and experimental.  Bands like Dream Theater (who follow Yes and Genesis), Porcupine Tree (who follow Floyd) Transatlantic (who follow the formula exactly) and Opeth (who kinda mix it all up) are progressive.  Bands like Radiohead and O.S.I. should just be called experimental.

Offline contest_sanity

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #141 on: March 10, 2010, 11:32:49 AM »
What contest is saying is that those elements which defined the progressive rock bands in the 70s aren't really progressive anymore.  Kind of like being in a union in the 21st century doesn't make you progressive.  For some, DT were never progressive because they sounded like the bands from the 70s; they were progressive because they took that sound and updated it for a modern audience.  Likewise, continuing to "update" the sound keeps them progressive.

I disagree.  Muddying what progressive means in politics and what it means in music leads you to a dead-end where anything suddenly becomes prog.

There's a genre of music called progressive.  It has the elements that were listed. Transatlantic doesn't innovate at all, but they're still progressive rock because they have those elements the bands that created the genre have.  Fates Warning and Dream Theater are prog too because they share those common elements, not because they're more modern.  Same goes for Between the Buried and Me-- they're not prog because they do long songs with tempo changes but they included growls.

Bands like O.S.I. are better described as "experimental."

Seems to me that in music, "progressive" has a very set definition, and "experimental" is better suited to describe greater notions of what the world "progressive" means in general.
See, I think a band like BTBAM is easily progressive metal.  Why do growls disqualify a band from this distinction?  And I would also easily call OSI progressive as well, maybe even progressive metal with some of their songs.  What I'm saying is that Dream Theater's choice to write some songs in the vein of other bands is "progressive" in the sense that it is a new approach they had not tried before.  Granted, as orcus pointed out, in theory any band could do "something new or different."  But I guess for a progressive metal band like DT, perhaps trying to write a U2-type song is the furthest thing from progressive metal they could envision.  Therefore, having the balls to try it seems like a "progressive" move, a risky move.  Perhaps progressive bands reach a point where the only way they can continue to be progressive is to no longer be progressive anymore (at least in certain songs).

To hef -- it's a new writing method or approach.  Whereas previously the band might have said "let's do a Zappa section here," on 8V they decided to write an entire song instead of a section.  That this was a new idea from their point of view is clear to me, though whether or not it was "progressive" or not is, as evidenced by this thread, very questionable.  But it's at least new.  It's like if I'm a poet and decide to write a poem in Robert Frost's style.  If I've never tried to emulate another poet before, then it's a new method for me, whether it results in anything very original or not.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #142 on: March 10, 2010, 11:34:28 AM »
No, BtBaM ARE progressive.  But it's NOT because they have growls.  It's because they share many common elements with the bands that started the genre.

Offline contest_sanity

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #143 on: March 10, 2010, 11:37:41 AM »
No, BtBaM ARE progressive.  But it's NOT because they have growls.  It's because they share many common elements with the bands that started the genre.
I think the way you worded your original sentence confused me.  And I agree; growls alone do not a progressive metal band make.

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #144 on: March 10, 2010, 11:42:34 AM »
The way I usually define prog and progressive as it relates to music:

Prog - a style of rock music that incorporates within individual songs, a number of time changes, technical playing and a variety of instrumentation in a non-standard format (i.e. different than the normal intro, verse, chorus, verse, bridge, solo, chorus, ending format).

Progressive - A rock artist that incorporates a variety of music styles into its core sound from one album to the next.

To me, that's about as best you can define the two without going ridiculously overboard.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 12:12:14 PM by Samsära »
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #145 on: March 10, 2010, 11:44:14 AM »
Why not just use progressive and experimental, as most critics seem to do ???

Offline contest_sanity

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #146 on: March 10, 2010, 11:46:14 AM »
Let's just forget all musical descriptors except for "good" and "bad." 

Offline Samsara

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #147 on: March 10, 2010, 12:11:22 PM »
Why not just use progressive and experimental, as most critics seem to do ???

Experimental is a term that is way to vague, in my opinion (speaking as a journalist). I only really use that if it is completely off the wall.  :lol
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #148 on: March 10, 2010, 12:14:44 PM »
Watch it man! I'm News Editor of my CAMPUS SCHOOL NEWSPAPER!  ;D

Really, though. Prog and Experimental are bad enough; I'd never expect the general public to know the difference between progressive and prog.

Then again, I've never had to make that call.  Like I said, the past two years I've been focusing on just the n00z.

Offline Samsara

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #149 on: March 10, 2010, 12:19:54 PM »
Watch it man! I'm News Editor of my CAMPUS SCHOOL NEWSPAPER!  ;D

Really, though. Prog and Experimental are bad enough; I'd never expect the general public to know the difference between progressive and prog.

Then again, I've never had to make that call.  Like I said, the past two years I've been focusing on just the n00z.

Glad young journalists are out there. Everyone starts somewhere. My first gig was an intern for a magazine publishing company while in college. It led to me being an editorial assistant on one fitness mag, to assistant editor on two fitness, sports/rec mags, and then finally associate editor on the two highest selling mags for the company. I wrote half of the features and news reports in both pubs. I moved on to cover other beats such as housing, construction and politics. And obviously, if you've visited www.breakdownroom.net, you'll see that I also cover rock music.

Good luck to you.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #150 on: March 10, 2010, 12:38:10 PM »
The way I usually define prog and progressive as it relates to music:

Prog - a style of rock music that incorporates within individual songs, a number of time changes, technical playing and a variety of instrumentation in a non-standard format (i.e. different than the normal intro, verse, chorus, verse, bridge, solo, chorus, ending format).

Progressive - A rock artist that incorporates a variety of music styles into its core sound from one album to the next.

To me, that's about as best you can define the two without going ridiculously overboard.

I agree though I like to think of prog as classical music played with rock instruments.

Offline contest_sanity

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #151 on: March 10, 2010, 12:47:22 PM »
I agree though I like to think of prog as classical music played with rock instruments.
Ever listen to Tourniquet?  They describe their music as Beethoven meets Frankenstein.

Offline bosk1

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #152 on: March 10, 2010, 12:57:54 PM »
Regarding "prog" vs. "progressive" vs. "not prog," etc.:

1.  That is not what this thread is about at all.  Please keep the thread on topic.  If you don't have anything to say that is on-topic, have fun reading, but please do not post.

2.  Hef's and Samsara's "definitions" are what are generally accepted, simple working descriptions.  But if you have to try much harder than that to pigeonhole music into a particular subgenre, you probably are missing the point, IMO.

3.  That is not what this thread is about at all.  Please keep the thread on topic.  If you don't have anything to say that is on-topic, have fun reading, but please do not post.
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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #153 on: March 10, 2010, 01:12:59 PM »
Sorry, boss.  :(
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Offline bosk1

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #154 on: March 10, 2010, 01:15:42 PM »
That's okay.  You didn't start it.
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Offline contest_sanity

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #155 on: March 10, 2010, 01:21:35 PM »
Sorry, boss.  :(
That's okay.  You didn't start it.
I also apologize.  I think I might have started it with my use of the word "progressing," though I did so in the context of discussing the growls.  Things went south from there.

Offline Martinman300

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #156 on: March 10, 2010, 02:34:59 PM »
Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key. The thing is, no one cares because hes running around like a madman entertaining the crowd in other ways, which i would love to see more of.

What i don't get is people bashing his heavy vocals. Sure some songs sound forced, (constant motion) but listen to The Shattered Fortress, he has got the most awesome grit on his voice in that song!

Offline bosk1

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #157 on: March 10, 2010, 02:42:46 PM »
Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key.

This is one thing I appreciate about James.  He used to just go for notes and not care whether or not he missed them badly.  He rarely does that anymore and usually just sings it differently but still on key.  A prime example is the F# in LTL on LSFNY.  I don't understand why some people get upset that he didn't go for the F#.  He obviously wasn't feeling it and didn't want to miss and ruin the song by singing way off key, so he did something else with it that was in the right key and sounded just fine.  That's just good decisionmaking.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #158 on: March 10, 2010, 03:06:34 PM »
Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key.

This is one thing I appreciate about James.  He used to just go for notes and not care whether or not he missed them badly.  He rarely does that anymore and usually just sings it differently but still on key.  A prime example is the F# in LTL on LSFNY.  I don't understand why some people get upset that he didn't go for the F#.  He obviously wasn't feeling it and didn't want to miss and ruin the song by singing way off key, so he did something else with it that was in the right key and sounded just fine.  That's just good decisionmaking.

That DVD is my favorite for that exact reason.  Even though he's not hitting the same notes, he sounds good the entire show and is singing his heart out. There's never a point where his vocals sound forced or grating.  And he still comes off as impressive.  TBH, James' range being back is great, but I think he pushes it a wee too much even now.  It's fine having James go denasal to hit that high-note.  But when he stays denasal an entire verse so he can hit ALL the highnotes... Let's just say I'd rather have LSFNY.

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #159 on: March 10, 2010, 03:08:06 PM »
Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key.

This is one thing I appreciate about James.  He used to just go for notes and not care whether or not he missed them badly.  He rarely does that anymore and usually just sings it differently but still on key.  A prime example is the F# in LTL on LSFNY.  I don't understand why some people get upset that he didn't go for the F#.  He obviously wasn't feeling it and didn't want to miss and ruin the song by singing way off key, so he did something else with it that was in the right key and sounded just fine.  That's just good decisionmaking.

That DVD is my favorite for that exact reason.  Even though he's not hitting the same notes, he sounds good the entire show and is singing his heart out. There's never a point where his vocals sound forced or grating.  And he still comes off as impressive.  TBH, James' range being back is great, but I think he pushes it a wee too much even now.  It's fine having James go denasal to hit that high-note.  But when he stays denasal an entire verse so he can hit ALL the highnotes... Let's just say I'd rather have LSFNY.

I agree with this so much. His performance on LSFNY was really great.

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #160 on: March 10, 2010, 03:24:54 PM »
Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key.

This is one thing I appreciate about James.  He used to just go for notes and not care whether or not he missed them badly.  He rarely does that anymore and usually just sings it differently but still on key.  A prime example is the F# in LTL on LSFNY.  I don't understand why some people get upset that he didn't go for the F#.  He obviously wasn't feeling it and didn't want to miss and ruin the song by singing way off key, so he did something else with it that was in the right key and sounded just fine.  That's just good decisionmaking.
I completely agree with this.

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #161 on: March 10, 2010, 04:03:30 PM »
Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key.

This is one thing I appreciate about James.  He used to just go for notes and not care whether or not he missed them badly.  He rarely does that anymore and usually just sings it differently but still on key.  A prime example is the F# in LTL on LSFNY.  I don't understand why some people get upset that he didn't go for the F#.  He obviously wasn't feeling it and didn't want to miss and ruin the song by singing way off key, so he did something else with it that was in the right key and sounded just fine.  That's just good decisionmaking.

That DVD is my favorite for that exact reason.  Even though he's not hitting the same notes, he sounds good the entire show and is singing his heart out. There's never a point where his vocals sound forced or grating.  And he still comes off as impressive.  TBH, James' range being back is great, but I think he pushes it a wee too much even now.  It's fine having James go denasal to hit that high-note.  But when he stays denasal an entire verse so he can hit ALL the highnotes... Let's just say I'd rather have LSFNY.

I agree with this so much. His performance on LSFNY was really great.
All of this.
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Offline Martinman300

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #162 on: March 11, 2010, 12:37:33 AM »
Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key.


This is one thing I appreciate about James.  He used to just go for notes and not care whether or not he missed them badly.  He rarely does that anymore and usually just sings it differently but still on key.  A prime example is the F# in LTL on LSFNY.  I don't understand why some people get upset that he didn't go for the F#.  He obviously wasn't feeling it and didn't want to miss and ruin the song by singing way off key, so he did something else with it that was in the right key and sounded just fine.  That's just good decisionmaking.

Exactly, i always thought he was good on that DVD.

Offline CountVoorhees

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #163 on: March 11, 2010, 12:41:04 AM »
I voted more... because I'm evil like that.

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #164 on: March 11, 2010, 07:05:49 AM »
Back on topic (slightly), with respect to JLB's live vocals i think that if there is a section he can't do well he should just tone it down or something. if you watch bruce dickinson when there is a really high part he doesnt just freeze on the spot to make sure he does it note perfect. He might just sing it lower, as long as its in key.

This is one thing I appreciate about James.  He used to just go for notes and not care whether or not he missed them badly.  He rarely does that anymore and usually just sings it differently but still on key.  A prime example is the F# in LTL on LSFNY.  I don't understand why some people get upset that he didn't go for the F#.  He obviously wasn't feeling it and didn't want to miss and ruin the song by singing way off key, so he did something else with it that was in the right key and sounded just fine.  That's just good decisionmaking.

That DVD is my favorite for that exact reason.  Even though he's not hitting the same notes, he sounds good the entire show and is singing his heart out. There's never a point where his vocals sound forced or grating.  And he still comes off as impressive.  TBH, James' range being back is great, but I think he pushes it a wee too much even now.  It's fine having James go denasal to hit that high-note.  But when he stays denasal an entire verse so he can hit ALL the highnotes... Let's just say I'd rather have LSFNY.

I agree with this so much. His performance on LSFNY was really great.

I agree, but I really wish we had at least ONE DVD with the F#5 being nailed as originally recorded . . .

Offline emindead

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #165 on: March 11, 2010, 03:28:09 PM »
James LaBrie is the vocal expertise of the band, and the albums where he contributed more to the writing are without a doubt the best albums the band has put out.  That Labrie's voice "just doesn't sound good over heavy music" makes absolutely no sense.  We're talking about the singer who sang over Caught in a Web, The Mirror, Lie, Home, and most of the songs on Train of Thought.  Why not let the "specialist" do his job?

Wait, what?  James did NOT contribute to the writing process on any of those albums.  As Lifting Shadows points out, James had not been involved in the writing process at all, and the band finally became frustrated with that approach at the time of Six Degrees that they basically gave James an ultimatum and told him they wanted him to be involved.  ...Because he wasn't involved on prior albums.
Mostly, because he was saying in interviews "when we were writing" and the band started to feel mad because he wasn't. So they told him: "OK, come here and write with us, we want you here, and you can finally say those things as well".

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Offline Birch Boy

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #166 on: March 11, 2010, 08:59:12 PM »
Wow, I didn't even know there were over 100 people on these boards  :omg:

Offline nicbor87

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #167 on: September 05, 2013, 11:24:21 AM »
Sorry for reviving this old thread but I feel this belongs here - something I've been wondering for a while but found no answer: Who's actually performing mikes vocal parts on stage these days? like in NtR? Or anything from the 12 step suite? is Petrucchi doing them or are they just avoiding those songs?

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #168 on: September 05, 2013, 11:25:57 AM »
Petrucchi is singing backing vocals now.
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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #169 on: September 05, 2013, 11:35:49 AM »
Are you telling me those "vocals" on BC&SL and before were made by Portnoy?   :huh:

I always thought it was made by the sixth DT member, The Singin' Troll:



I always thought it was something like: "You better let me sing, or I'll kill you all!". There's no other logical explanation...

After all, The Singin' Troll is on Labrie's last effort, too...

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Offline jyoung320

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Re: "Growl" Style Vocals by Portnoy in DT
« Reply #170 on: September 06, 2013, 04:45:41 PM »
Sorry for reviving this old thread but I feel this belongs here - something I've been wondering for a while but found no answer: Who's actually performing mikes vocal parts on stage these days? like in NtR? Or anything from the 12 step suite? is Petrucchi doing them or are they just avoiding those songs?

LaBrie does some.-o-.