The Replacement Problem

[Adami]

I'm pretty sure MP can do just about anything he puts his mind to, unless it becomes a physical limitation.  He's not getting any younger, but if he practiced he could duplicate just about anything.  As far as KM and DS duplicating JR, probably not.  Completely different league altogether.

I'm pretty sure drummers like Lang can do things that Portnoy just can't. Or if he could....he'd have to work REALLY hard at it.

[As I Am]

Just my 2C on MP. I truly feel that he is THE BEST live drummer I've ever seen (and I've been to well over 500 shows since 1976). That being said, ANYONE can be replaced. There are many great drummers out there who would give their left nut to be in a band like DT. I fully expect the new drummer to A) Be a truly explosive drummer both in the studio and live, B) breathe new life into the band, C) be very excited to be in this great band & D) to know that at some point in the future, a reunion with MP WILL happen and he'll be thanked and and told "great job, but we MUST DO THIS with Mike for us and our fans".

[rumborak]

I always had the impression a lot of people dissed FII because MP hated it too, so it was the "right thing" to do.

rumborak

[Mebert78]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I used the search function and this seemed like the best spot for it.  Matt Guillory (keyboardist on JLB's solo stuff) posted a video on Facebook of someone covering his key solos and it made me think about Guillory's keyboard ability.  Dude has good choice of sounds and has shown he can play some technical stuff here and there.  And, like Mangini, he 's worked with JLB on his solo stuff and there's some obvious chemistry between the two.  Anyway, I shot out the question on whether he'd consider replacing Jordan if he retires within the next decade.

He said: "I think Jordan is irreplaceable. As much as I love and appreciate what DT does, if presented the opportunity, I'd have to decline. Musically, it's just not where my heart is at."

[Chino]

I was just thinking Virgil Donati would be awesome

His solo on Steve Vai's Live in London DVD is mind numbing.

[wasteland]

That's a very honest answer and mindset. He would turn down the job offer of his life because that's not where his heart is musically. Props to him.

And by the way, I can't say the idea of him replacing Jordan should he decide to retire someday hasn't ever crossed my mind. 

[Madman Shepherd]

True if MP ever does join back, I seriously doubt he'll want to play any tracks that he wasn't involved with. But we'll see you never know. Never say never.

Which I bet would be one of several deal breakers for the rest of the band. 

[Shadow2222]

True if MP ever does join back, I seriously doubt he'll want to play any tracks that he wasn't involved with. But we'll see you never know. Never say never.

Which I bet would be one of several deal breakers for the rest of the band.

At this point, yeah. They are about to release an album called "Dream Theater." There is no way they would toss that material out and say, "Oh, well it WAS our quintessential album, but we aren't going to play it anymore."

[Aythesryche]

It's actually not that difficult to find virtuoso keyboard players. Might be rare in the metal/prog world on Jordan's level I guess, but there are a ton out there that can match if not surpass Jordan in "technical" abilities. Hell, my mother and a couple cousins can play circles around JR and play all his stuff note for note if they wanted. They were classically trained and are concert pianists. Would be tough to fill Jordan's shoes, though. This is mainly due to the mans style and what he brought to the table for DT. His individuality. Thinking of better or less technically proficient keyboard players is irrelevant. Only one JR and no one else in the world is going to procure sounds and music the way he does exactly. Sure, you can replace him, but the music is going to change, regardless of the calibre of player.

In other words, there are a lot of players out there that can match the "abilities" of JR, JP, etc, but no one could ever replace them and have music that would still be identitcal to what we had before whatever change. It would change into another kind of Dream Theater, just as it did when DS joined and then when JR and MM did. Sure, the old songs might be played the same note-for-note, but in a lot of ways with little nuances, they will be different with whoever new you bring to the table.

[goo-goo]

It would be hard to replace Jordan..not because of his ability but I guess because of his technological knowledge. Some replacements that come to mind: Michael Pinnella from Symphony X (he would bring a similar style to Derek...soundwise at least); Ryo Okymoto showed his "JR-like" chops in the latest Spocks' Beard album; Adam Holtzman (who JR recommended for the Steven Wilson band, although he is more jazz oriented); maybe Richard Barbieri (he would definitely change DTs sound, maybe returning to a KM era sounding DT); Adam Wakeman from Headspace (man, love this album)...JR could be replaced by many keyboardist but one thing that will definitely change is the DT keyboard sound...which imo, every change that DT has gone through in the keyboard dept brought a whole new different sound to the band.

[Aythesryche]

It would be hard to replace Jordan with someone else that's gonna bring to the table what Jordan did precisely. Pretty much impossible. MM even said something like "I'm not replacing what MP brought to the table, not filling his shoes, Im not what he was, etc etc." He was basically saying he's not a carbon copy of MP and he's bringing his own style and abilities to the table. Even the great Mike Mangini knows he could never be what Portnoy was. Because to be that... You would, well, need to actually BE Mike Portnoy.

I certainly love DT the way they are now and I personally hope they remain with this lineup until the bands conclusion. And based on what some of the band members have said in the last year or so, this lineup is it.

[Perpetual Change]

It would be hard to replace Jordan, but not impossible, since someone far below his skill level could still replicate all the band's classic material and, let's be honest, most of the Jordan material too, since Jordan obviously doesn't ALWAYS play at his highest technical level.

[Aythesryche]

Sure, it wouldn't be too difficult to replace Jordan if you're speaking from a technical standpoint and being able to play the classics note-for-note. What I was saying is that it would be impossible to replace Jordan with someone that has the exact same musical mindset as JR has. That's something that's unique to all musicians and can't be precisely replicated. All of JRs upbringing, musical tastes, events in life, interests in life, ups, downs and all the paths he's taken makes JR who he is. The accumulation of all these things makes up his musical styling, which is unique and can't be duplicated by someone else. You can replace the man, but any potential new material will be different from what JR would have done, regardless of the calibre of musician. Even the nuances of the classics will change, just as they have with DS, JR and MM.

[Shadow2222]

It would be hard to... Oh damn, I'm late!

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I'm pretty sure MP can do just about anything he puts his mind to, unless it becomes a physical limitation.  He's not getting any younger, but if he practiced he could duplicate just about anything.  As far as KM and DS duplicating JR, probably not.  Completely different league altogether.

It IS a physical limitation because he is not a technical drummer and MM IS a technical drummer. Watching and listening to MM's stuff over the years, there is no way-- zero chance--that MP could replicate his drum work at that level. MP is not a technical drummer, and he never professed to be and is not considered one by those with a modicum of drum knowledge.

With regard to technique, MM is in a "different league" from MP.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

It's actually not that difficult to find virtuoso keyboard players. Might be rare in the metal/prog world on Jordan's level I guess, but there are a ton out there that can match if not surpass Jordan in "technical" abilities. Hell, my mother and a couple cousins can play circles around JR and play all his stuff note for note if they wanted. They were classically trained and are concert pianists. Would be tough to fill Jordan's shoes, though. This is mainly due to the mans style and what he brought to the table for DT. His individuality. Thinking of better or less technically proficient keyboard players is irrelevant. Only one JR and no one else in the world is going to procure sounds and music the way he does exactly. Sure, you can replace him, but the music is going to change, regardless of the calibre of player.

In other words, there are a lot of players out there that can match the "abilities" of JR, JP, etc, but no one could ever replace them and have music that would still be identitcal to what we had before whatever change. It would change into another kind of Dream Theater, just as it did when DS joined and then when JR and MM did. Sure, the old songs might be played the same note-for-note, but in a lot of ways with little nuances, they will be different with whoever new you bring to the table.

I pretty much agree with what you are saying. JR's technical ability is more rare in prog/metal, and he is a virtuoso, but once you look outside of that genre it is not uncommon at all to see that. In the classical world, JR's ability wouldn't even be close to the top...at all. In the world of classically trained pianists, a level of technique extending far beyond JR's is not the exception-- rather, it is the rule.

[KevShmev]

It would be hard to replace Jordan..not because of his ability but I guess because of his technological knowledge. Some replacements that come to mind: Michael Pinnella from Symphony X (he would bring a similar style to Derek...soundwise at least); Ryo Okymoto showed his "JR-like" chops in the latest Spocks' Beard album; Adam Holtzman (who JR recommended for the Steven Wilson band, although he is more jazz oriented); maybe Richard Barbieri (he would definitely change DTs sound, maybe returning to a KM era sounding DT); Adam Wakeman from Headspace (man, love this album)...JR could be replaced by many keyboardist but one thing that will definitely change is the DT keyboard sound...which imo, every change that DT has gone through in the keyboard dept brought a whole new different sound to the band.

Richard Barbieri wouldn't have a prayer of playing most of DT's keyboard leads.  Don't get me wrong, his playing is integral to the Porcupine Tree sound, and the band would not be the same without him, but while he is similar to Kevin Moore in regards to being an expert at creating lush moods and textures, he doesn't come close to the technical ability of any of the three keyboard players Dream Theater has had.  That is not a criticism, so much as a demonstration that he is simply on a completely different wavelength.  It would be like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

[rush-signals]

These MP vs MM threads get so old. MP is not coming back, end of story. MM is DT's drummer and a damn good one and a damn good influence on the band.

[theseoafs]

These MP vs MM threads get so old.

Yeah, this one is almost 3 years old.

[goo-goo]

It would be hard to replace Jordan..not because of his ability but I guess because of his technological knowledge. Some replacements that come to mind: Michael Pinnella from Symphony X (he would bring a similar style to Derek...soundwise at least); Ryo Okymoto showed his "JR-like" chops in the latest Spocks' Beard album; Adam Holtzman (who JR recommended for the Steven Wilson band, although he is more jazz oriented); maybe Richard Barbieri (he would definitely change DTs sound, maybe returning to a KM era sounding DT); Adam Wakeman from Headspace (man, love this album)...JR could be replaced by many keyboardist but one thing that will definitely change is the DT keyboard sound...which imo, every change that DT has gone through in the keyboard dept brought a whole new different sound to the band.

Richard Barbieri wouldn't have a prayer of playing most of DT's keyboard leads.  Don't get me wrong, his playing is integral to the Porcupine Tree sound, and the band would not be the same without him, but while he is similar to Kevin Moore in regards to being an expert at creating lush moods and textures, he doesn't come close to the technical ability of any of the three keyboard players Dream Theater has had.  That is not a criticism, so much as a demonstration that he is simply on a completely different wavelength.  It would be like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say that DT's keyboard sound will definitely have to change to a more KM-era sounding DT where mood and atmosphere would take over noodling and keyboard solos.

[rumborak]

I'm pretty sure MP can do just about anything he puts his mind to, unless it becomes a physical limitation.  He's not getting any younger, but if he practiced he could duplicate just about anything.  As far as KM and DS duplicating JR, probably not.  Completely different league altogether.

It IS a physical limitation because he is not a technical drummer and MM IS a technical drummer. Watching and listening to MM's stuff over the years, there is no way-- zero chance--that MP could replicate his drum work at that level. MP is not a technical drummer, and he never professed to be and is not considered one by those with a modicum of drum knowledge.

With regard to technique, MM is in a "different league" from MP.

Just as a comment, the above hypothetical question was kinda answered through the PSMS project. MP was forced to play something by a drummer who is totally out of his league, Virgil Donati. What MP did was to simplify the playing. I could see him doing the same for an MM song if he ever had to.

[gmillerdrake]

I'm pretty sure MP can do just about anything he puts his mind to, unless it becomes a physical limitation.  He's not getting any younger, but if he practiced he could duplicate just about anything.  As far as KM and DS duplicating JR, probably not.  Completely different league altogether.

It IS a physical limitation because he is not a technical drummer and MM IS a technical drummer. Watching and listening to MM's stuff over the years, there is no way-- zero chance--that MP could replicate his drum work at that level. MP is not a technical drummer, and he never professed to be and is not considered one by those with a modicum of drum knowledge.

With regard to technique, MM is in a "different league" from MP.

Just as a comment, the above hypothetical question was kinda answered through the PSMS project. MP was forced to play something by a drummer who is totally out of his league, Virgil Donati. What MP did was to simplify the playing. I could see him doing the same for an MM song if he ever had to.

MP had/has a hard enough time replicating HIS own 'studio' version of songs. My biggest issue with MP was that he consistently simplified his live drumming. Especially the bass drum beats.

[rumborak]

Yeah, I remember seeing ANTR live, and waiting for the blast beats to come. My band's drummer and I were on the edges of our seats, and then ..... awwww.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm pretty sure MP can do just about anything he puts his mind to, unless it becomes a physical limitation.  He's not getting any younger, but if he practiced he could duplicate just about anything.  As far as KM and DS duplicating JR, probably not.  Completely different league altogether.

It IS a physical limitation because he is not a technical drummer and MM IS a technical drummer. Watching and listening to MM's stuff over the years, there is no way-- zero chance--that MP could replicate his drum work at that level. MP is not a technical drummer, and he never professed to be and is not considered one by those with a modicum of drum knowledge.

With regard to technique, MM is in a "different league" from MP.

Just as a comment, the above hypothetical question was kinda answered through the PSMS project. MP was forced to play something by a drummer who is totally out of his league, Virgil Donati. What MP did was to simplify the playing. I could see him doing the same for an MM song if he ever had to.

MP had/has a hard enough time replicating HIS own 'studio' version of songs. My biggest issue with MP was that he consistently simplified his live drumming. Especially the bass drum beats.

I very rarely noticed him do that, except for times like the ITNOG outro, where it was simplified for a good reason, and not due to difficulty.
And there's nothing on ADTOE that I think is beyond MP. We'll have to wait and see as far as DT12 goes, with MM "unleashed".

[Tis BOOLsheet]

I'm pretty sure MP can do just about anything he puts his mind to, unless it becomes a physical limitation.  He's not getting any younger, but if he practiced he could duplicate just about anything.  As far as KM and DS duplicating JR, probably not.  Completely different league altogether.

It IS a physical limitation because he is not a technical drummer and MM IS a technical drummer. Watching and listening to MM's stuff over the years, there is no way-- zero chance--that MP could replicate his drum work at that level. MP is not a technical drummer, and he never professed to be and is not considered one by those with a modicum of drum knowledge.

With regard to technique, MM is in a "different league" from MP.

Just as a comment, the above hypothetical question was kinda answered through the PSMS project. MP was forced to play something by a drummer who is totally out of his league, Virgil Donati. What MP did was to simplify the playing. I could see him doing the same for an MM song if he ever had to.

Agreed. But most drummers are probably not going to be able to replicate Virgil. He's a very unique specimen in terms of technique. The guy must have practiced every day for at least 7 hours since childhood.

[(nothing)]

I don't really know if Portnoy was ever considered a "technical drummer" per say... maybe outside the "pure" drumming world because in the actual drumming world I think there have been players who are much more technically advanced than Portnoy for quite a long time. Players like Donati or Mangini are just in a different league than Mike, no doubt about that. When it comes to writing drum parts and producing them (i.e. how they end up sounding on a record, which starts with the kit and the actual playing)... that's another story. I love Donati's playing in Planet X but I like Portnoy's parts in Dream Theater/Transatlantic records more.

Also, maybe there are other keyboardists in the world who have Jordan's talent but seriously, how much better does it get than that? The guy's a machine.

[adastra]

If MP would come back, I wouldn't like to hear him try to copy Mangini's drumming. 
I think he should play them with his own way :3

[aprilethereal]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I used the search function and this seemed like the best spot for it.  Matt Guillory (keyboardist on JLB's solo stuff) posted a video on Facebook of someone covering his key solos and it made me think about Guillory's keyboard ability.  Dude has good choice of sounds and has shown he can play some technical stuff here and there.  And, like Mangini, he 's worked with JLB on his solo stuff and there's some obvious chemistry between the two.  Anyway, I shot out the question on whether he'd consider replacing Jordan if he retires within the next decade.

He said: "I think Jordan is irreplaceable. As much as I love and appreciate what DT does, if presented the opportunity, I'd have to decline. Musically, it's just not where my heart is at."

I already have a lot of respect for Matt, but that answer makes me appreciate him even more

[a51502112]

So who's the new drummer?
I hope they pick Rikki Rockett.

[wolven74]

Moore ------> Sherinian = Downgrade in my estimation.

[hefdaddy42]

I don't really know if Portnoy was ever considered a "technical drummer" per say... maybe outside the "pure" drumming world because in the actual drumming world I think there have been players who are much more technically advanced than Portnoy for quite a long time.

This is something that MP himself has admitted on more than one occasion.

[rumborak]

Yeah, I remember him saying in an interview that most modern drummers can run circles around him.