Author Topic: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...  (Read 20622 times)

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Offline bosk1

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #105 on: February 22, 2010, 08:08:19 AM »
I think the album gets negatively judged in light of all we know now about the circumstances surrounding it more than its actual content... but that's just my opinion.

Maybe.  But I bought it long before I knew anything about the circumstances surrounding it, and I did not like it at all at first.  And although I have since learned to appreciate it over the years, I have never liked YNM.  For those that do, that's great.  But I have never thought it was even a decent song.
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Offline Samsara

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #106 on: February 22, 2010, 09:27:45 AM »
I think the album gets negatively judged in light of all we know now about the circumstances surrounding it more than its actual content... but that's just my opinion.

Maybe.  But I bought it long before I knew anything about the circumstances surrounding it, and I did not like it at all at first.  And although I have since learned to appreciate it over the years, I have never liked YNM.  For those that do, that's great.  But I have never thought it was even a decent song.

I would agree with that quoted bit from contest_sanity regarding FII. It has always been my belief that had MP not slagged the shit out of the record and how it was made, that fans would not be so down about the album. Notice that JP, JLB, JM, and DS don't do that. They are proud of the album. Everyone here that does slag it is sure to say "wait, no, MP's opinion has nothing to do with what I think." Yeah, right.

The album was expertly conceived and is balanced with the right amount of singles and the right amount of progressive numbers. And most importantly, the music BREATHES and the production is top-notch. DT's best produced and engineered album (IMO). As I always have said, FII is Dream Theater's version of Queensryche's Empire. It takes the band's complex sound and maintains its integrity, but at the same time branches out and attempts to capture mainstream fans a bit more.

And at least on Long Island, it worked. "You Not Me" was on constant heavy rotation when the record came out. All time slots. It was also promoted like crazy in the local record stores, both independent and chains.

Say what you want about "You Not Me," but frankly, as a fan of Dream Theater, I think the final version on the album is a lot more consistent than the demo. The demo's chorus was clunky and the song didn't flow as well as the final version does. It's a matter of taste, absolutely. But as a constructed song, it works and works well.

That was DC's job when he worked with JP to re-write it. And it did the tune a world of good for what they were trying to accomplish with it (a radio single).

I'm not a fan of outside writers at all...but the changes made to that song made it go a big step up in this fan's opinion (although I do like the Queensryche-esqe news reel audio in the beginning of the demo version...which makes an appearance at the end of "You Not Me" if you listen closely).
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Online hefdaddy42

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #107 on: February 22, 2010, 09:35:26 AM »
Samsara, most of the people here who are outspoken about their dislike of FII are longtime fans who never liked it.  MP's opinions on it are irrelevant, because most of us didn't even know them until years after the album's release.  Most newer fans actually like the album.

And while you might think that YNM is a well-written radio single, the fact is that DT doesn't DO radio singles.  The album, notwithstanding some awesome tracks like Lines In The Sand or Trial of Tears, is too much of a departure from what the essence of DT is.  I disagree strongly that the album was expertly conceived.

However, you are 100% right about the production - it is the best of any DT album.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #108 on: February 22, 2010, 09:52:19 AM »
Samsara, most of the people here who are outspoken about their dislike of FII are longtime fans who never liked it.  MP's opinions on it are irrelevant, because most of us didn't even know them until years after the album's release.  Most newer fans actually like the album.

And while you might think that YNM is a well-written radio single, the fact is that DT doesn't DO radio singles.  The album, notwithstanding some awesome tracks like Lines In The Sand or Trial of Tears, is too much of a departure from what the essence of DT is.  I disagree strongly that the album was expertly conceived.

All of this.  Again, for me, I had no idea what Mike thought about the album until YEARS after I bought it.  When I first got it, I did not like it.  It was too hit-and-miss from song to song, and it took me a while to get into--probably longer than any other DT album other than WDADU.  That has nothing to do with Mike.  It has to do with the fact that it sounded different than I&W, Awake, ACOS, and SFAM (yes, I bought FII after SFAM).  I now appreciate it as a strong album, but it definitely took some getting used to.

And as for YNM, you're certainly entitled to your opinion that the final product is better than the demo (I slightly prefer the demo, but not by a whole lot), to me the issue isn't whether DC was able to transform it into a radio-friendly song.  The problem is that what he had to work with wasn't very good, and what he transformed it into STILL wasn't very good.  Maybe it did get some radio play, and maybe that did briefly expose DT to a bigger audience.  But the fact remains to me that it still is just a bad song. 

I still have to stick by my assessment of that entire FII situation.  Some of what happened was good for the album.  A lot of it was not.  Overall, although it was a tough period for the band, I think it was good for them in the long run.  And now that we have both the album and the complete set of the demos in an official format, we the fans have the best of both.  Most fans, at least fans that post on these forums, would do something different if they were making their own version of FII, and I've noticed that most of it includes a mix of the album tracks and the demo tracks.  But what is also interesting to me is that there isn't a single unified consensus about what final track selection would be the best.  Hey, it's in the history books.  We got a ton of good songs out of it and the band is still kicking.  So in my opinion, there's no sense grousing about it one way or the other.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #109 on: February 22, 2010, 10:03:07 AM »
I think it is important to remember that if the current production team was in charge of DT at the time of FII, we likely wouldn't have gotten Scenes from a Memory as is (FACT), not to mention most of the demo versions aren't as good as the final versions that made FII (OPINION), so, ponder that for a bit, folks. :)

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #110 on: February 22, 2010, 10:06:26 AM »
I think it is important to remember that if the current production team was in charge of DT at the time of FII, we likely wouldn't have gotten Scenes from a Memory as is (FACT), not to mention most of the demo versions aren't as good as the final versions that made FII (OPINION), so, ponder that for a bit, folks. :)

Oh, I have considered that many times, which is why I am glad they went through all of that, regardless of my personal opinion of FII as a standalone project.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #111 on: February 22, 2010, 10:33:59 AM »
I didn't start listening to Dream Theater until around Train of Thought, and I remember pretty much everyone I know telling me to avoid Falling into Infinity at all costs.  That includes people in real life and people online alike.

When I finally bought it a year or so alter, I was pleasantly surprised.  The album is really not that bad.  There's a couple clunkers which seem to be mostly during the first half of the album, but there's just as many classics.

I completely disagree about it being the best sounding.  That album, to me, is lacking in all energy.  The lighter songs and in-betweens like Trial of Tears sound good, but the heavier ones sound completely lifeless.  I also can't stand the "hollow" drum sound that I hear on that album (as well as SC).

Offline bosk1

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #112 on: February 22, 2010, 10:39:09 AM »
My standard advice for years was (and still is, for that matter) not necessarily that people should avoid it, but that it not be near the first few albums people sample from the band.  And I always include the caveat that it is more commercial sounding and different than their other albums, so newer fans should keep that in mind.
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Offline Samsara

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #113 on: February 22, 2010, 11:06:35 AM »
Samsara, most of the people here who are outspoken about their dislike of FII are longtime fans who never liked it.  MP's opinions on it are irrelevant, because most of us didn't even know them until years after the album's release.  Most newer fans actually like the album.

That's a good point, Hef. But every time there is a discussion about FII, people bring up (on this board) MP's comments about it, and then throw in "yeah, I don't like it at all." MP's comments might not have what some folks based their negative opinions on, but they certainly reinforced the negative ones. Sorry, I just don't think most people have the strong-willed, independent judgment that guys such as you, bosk1 and myself have when it comes to music. You give people more credit than I do.

Interesting though, your comment on newer fans liking the album. How do you base that, just on observation of what is said here?

Quote
And while you might think that YNM is a well-written radio single, the fact is that DT doesn't DO radio singles.  The album, notwithstanding some awesome tracks like Lines In The Sand or Trial of Tears, is too much of a departure from what the essence of DT is.  I disagree strongly that the album was expertly conceived.

What makes you say DT doesn't DO radio singles? They did, for a long time. Pull Me Under? Another Day? Lie? You Not Me is the lead single from FII. DT doesn't really do singles ANY LONGER, which is the more appropriate term. But they absolutely USED TO.

And what are you talking about - "departure from what the essence of DT is."  I think what you meant to say is "FII departs from what I BELIEVE the essence of DT is." Because surely, your view of what DT's music "is" doesn't stand up for everyone. Hate to split hairs, but that just really bothers me. If Dream Theater was a band that only wrote 10-15 minute songs with crazy Metropolis-esqe instrumentals in the middle and was a complete technical band, I wouldn't have been a fan. What DT's "essence" is, is frankly, up to the listener. Our personal definitions vary obviously, as to what that "is."

Back in the early days of the band (WDADU-FII), the "essence" of the band, IMO, was bringing a more progressive bent to traditional metal, taking what Fates and QR did to the next level...but maintaining a sense of strong structure, melody and cohesion in the songs. But as the band got more and more technical, the limits of structure and cohesion were pushed open to a point where they were almost forgotten, particularly the latter.

Sure, the band still has its moments, but if you define what the band's "essence" is NOW, I think it's very different than what it was through 1997.


Quote
However, you are 100% right about the production - it is the best of any DT album.

Glad you agree with the opinion. The sound is just flat out amazing. Really wish they'd hook up with Kevin Shirley again. I don't have my liner notes with me, but did he produce AND engineer? If not, whoever the engineer was deserves some big time credit.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #114 on: February 22, 2010, 11:30:12 AM »
Quote
And what are you talking about - "departure from what the essence of DT is."  I think what you meant to say is "FII departs from what I BELIEVE the essence of DT is." Because surely, your view of what DT's music "is" doesn't stand up for everyone. Hate to split hairs, but that just really bothers me. If Dream Theater was a band that only wrote 10-15 minute songs with crazy Metropolis-esqe instrumentals in the middle and was a complete technical band, I wouldn't have been a fan. What DT's "essence" is, is frankly, up to the listener. Our personal definitions vary obviously, as to what that "is."

But see, almost every song you listed was an afterthought or something done for the label.  Even Pull Me Under.  Granted, PMU was a pretty damn good move, the band have slowly realized that the singles don't help them.  When Mike, John, and John used to meet and practice they had no intention whatsoever to write radio singles.  Status Seeker was written per request of the label, and Pull Me Under after the label heard the initial demos and wanted more.  The band kept going for another hit on each album until Scenes, when they realized that they already had a good fanbase and singles was never their main objective anyway.  So I think it's pretty unfair to say that singles are part of the band's essence.  They were important to establishing the band early on, but they're not what the band's ever been best at and they're not what's kept almost all the fans so satisfied for so long.

I know there's guys like you and some others who feel "left out" by the newer DT and I honestly feel for you.  But the band started with progressive rock music.  The singles changed that for awhile, but eventually they hit a wall and had to decide whether to side with the majority of fans who hated the newer direction or the couple that actually liked FII and their singles. 
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 11:38:11 AM by Perpetual Change »

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #115 on: February 22, 2010, 11:31:01 AM »
Oh for crying out loud. We could say the exact same thing, that your contempt for modern DT is not your actual feeling but was 100% influenced by 5/8's opinions (or Orcus or Rumborak or whoever). Let me (us) repeat once again that we don't like FII BECAUSE WE FEEL MOST OF THE SONGS ARE BORING AND UNINSPIRED, not because MP said so.  :facepalm:

Offline Samsara

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #116 on: February 22, 2010, 11:38:50 AM »
Oh for crying out loud. We could say the exact same thing, that your contempt for modern DT is not your actual feeling but was 100% influenced by 5/8's opinions (or Orcus or Rumborak or whoever). Let me (us) repeat once again that we don't like FII BECAUSE WE FEEL MOST OF THE SONGS ARE BORING AND UNINSPIRED, not because MP said so.  :facepalm:

Calm down. Responses such as yours are what makes threads turn a bad direction. I don't have contempt for modern DT. I just don't care for the direction as much as I did the older material. I don't even know what a "5/8" is, so not sure what you're talking about.

If you don't like FII because of those reasons, fine. But I will always believe had MP kept his mouth shut, there wouldn't be nearly as much criticism of FII as there is.

PC - good point, but by default, the singles are a part of DT. They were written and released by the band as pieces of work that are part of the album. And when you say "the band" who are you talking about? Because as we discussed, JP does indeed like mainstream stuff, both as a fan and as a writer/artist...are you saying it's mostly MP that doesn't like single-oriented songs? Because in that case, I'd agree with you. As a writer/artist, MP would never want to write a five-minute single. JP, JM, or JLB on the other hand...

So in a nutshell, like it or not, singles are a part of DT. Even if not a main objective, they were always part of the plan for the album. They just weren't the band's emphasis when writing, until they were requested to...and they did it very, very well.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #117 on: February 22, 2010, 11:54:56 AM »
Well, you're right.  The band haven't completely given up on singles.  There's Forsaken, A Rite of Passage, and Wither, which all had high-budget videos and, like those songs or not, definitely increased the popularity of the band.  Nowadays most people just search band's videos on Youtube, so I can show a friend of mine who likes anime or vampires the Forsaken video, he's likely to think it's pretty cool and will want to learn more about the band.

So, yeah, I think the band have turned back to writing singles because they don't have to rely on television and radio to get those singles "out there" anymore.  Just like file-sharing likely helped people get into Dream Theater, whose albums were sometimes too obscure to find in stores like Best Buy, the ability to get videos out there to audiences who can watch them quickly and easily on Youtube helps in the same kind of way.

Too much emphasis on singles is likely what turned the band away from them for three albums.  Then, it was a matter of survival.  Now that the band's back on its feet and can write one or two singles per album, which will be heard on Youtube and the RR site by unfamiliar audiences, they don't have to make albums like FII anymore where half of the songs have to have "single potential" in hopes that the radio will like one of them. This way, they get their name and a quick representation of their sound out their while keeping most of the fans happy.  That's the big difference between writing now and then.  Back then, the band would have to write song after song geared towards appeasing the radio gods.  Now, they know they can get whatever single they want out online and it'll get good play on youtube.  So it's not a matter of writing single after single, it's a matter of finding ways to represent the band to new audiences.  That's why they don't need to do an album like FII anymore and wouldn't.

Sooo yeah, I agree with you about singles being part of the band's essence.  If it weren't for them continuing with singles after Train of Thought, I'd disagree.  But the fact that they've been putting out strong singles on the last three albums and actually marketing them on the last two is proof that singles are an aspect of the band which needed to be revisited.

Now why were we talking about this again?  ;D

Offline Samsara

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #118 on: February 22, 2010, 12:04:29 PM »


Now why were we talking about this again?  ;D

No idea. I think I'll retire from the thread. lol
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #119 on: February 22, 2010, 12:10:56 PM »


Now why were we talking about this again?  ;D

No idea. I think I'll retire from the thread. lol

Good idea.  Well, that was fun.  Now I should actually do work in the office.

 :hat

Offline Mebert78

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #120 on: February 22, 2010, 12:18:35 PM »
[snip]

Moved my post to a more appropriate thread, since I wasn't really on topic with your chat about writing singles.   ;)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2010, 12:56:27 PM by Mebert78 »
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Offline emindead

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #121 on: February 22, 2010, 12:48:20 PM »
"Solitary Shell" could be easily a single. Same for "These Walls", "I Walk beside you", "Through Her Eyes", "The Spirit Carries On", "As I Am"... they weren't hits. But they sure were in the vein for singles.

Offline Bone_Daddy

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #122 on: February 22, 2010, 01:18:13 PM »
I think it is what it is. The band goes pretty strong pumping out tunes and touring - I'm thinking it was in the works for them to take a break. So it was probably a "sooner vs later" issue that was capitalized on with the suggestion from the label.

And I must agree, more debate ala the MP vs KM on Awake and we ended up with a sonically bad ass album. Would love to see more of that and not so much challenge MP's creative directive but dare him to to step outside of his comfort zone (just as long as it stays away from 8VM).  :o

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #123 on: February 22, 2010, 06:13:03 PM »
lol, I had a longish response to Samsara and then accidentally the whole thing.

I'm not re-typing.

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #124 on: February 24, 2010, 09:02:54 AM »
Samsara, most of the people here who are outspoken about their dislike of FII are longtime fans who never liked it.  MP's opinions on it are irrelevant, because most of us didn't even know them until years after the album's release.  Most newer fans actually like the album.

And while you might think that YNM is a well-written radio single, the fact is that DT doesn't DO radio singles.  The album, notwithstanding some awesome tracks like Lines In The Sand or Trial of Tears, is too much of a departure from what the essence of DT is.  I disagree strongly that the album was expertly conceived.

All of this.  Again, for me, I had no idea what Mike thought about the album until YEARS after I bought it.  When I first got it, I did not like it.  It was too hit-and-miss from song to song, and it took me a while to get into--probably longer than any other DT album other than WDADU.  That has nothing to do with Mike.  It has to do with the fact that it sounded different than I&W, Awake, ACOS, and SFAM (yes, I bought FII after SFAM).  I now appreciate it as a strong album, but it definitely took some getting used to.

And as for YNM, you're certainly entitled to your opinion that the final product is better than the demo (I slightly prefer the demo, but not by a whole lot), to me the issue isn't whether DC was able to transform it into a radio-friendly song.  The problem is that what he had to work with wasn't very good, and what he transformed it into STILL wasn't very good.  Maybe it did get some radio play, and maybe that did briefly expose DT to a bigger audience.  But the fact remains to me that it still is just a bad song. 

I still have to stick by my assessment of that entire FII situation.  Some of what happened was good for the album.  A lot of it was not.  Overall, although it was a tough period for the band, I think it was good for them in the long run.  And now that we have both the album and the complete set of the demos in an official format, we the fans have the best of both.  Most fans, at least fans that post on these forums, would do something different if they were making their own version of FII, and I've noticed that most of it includes a mix of the album tracks and the demo tracks.  But what is also interesting to me is that there isn't a single unified consensus about what final track selection would be the best.  Hey, it's in the history books.  We got a ton of good songs out of it and the band is still kicking.  So in my opinion, there's no sense grousing about it one way or the other.

Agree with all of this.

Because it is their best sounding album, it's easier to "go back" and listen to it, but as a current (at the time) fan of the band, this was a huge departure. Now, it's just a hiccup between Awake and Scenes.

But Sam, the Empire comparison is interesting..but Empire was far less of a departure from what Quuensryche were doing at the time. FII is better compared to Promised Land, because that was so far removed from (at least) my feelings of what QR stood for.
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Offline 02T

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Re: DT's hiatus after the upcoming tour...thoughts on reasoning...
« Reply #125 on: February 28, 2010, 05:06:27 PM »
I think it would be awesome if they had a break, did some side projects etc, and then cam out with a huge world tour BEFORE DOING ANOTHER ALBUM.

That way they aren't obliged to focus on any album so we can songs like ACOS and stuff played again.

Haven't thought of that, but it's a brilliant idea.

No, that's only for when a band breaks up.  Then they get back together for a tour then maybe album.
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