Author Topic: Production  (Read 14277 times)

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Offline orcus116

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Re: Production
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2010, 09:09:44 PM »
Awake needs some SC level of compression. That's the main problem.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Production
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2010, 09:11:54 PM »
lol I'm not sure if that was a dig at me, or just at SC's mastering, but that's exactly why I pointed out that all of my favourite albums are from the same era as Awake (probably a few years earlier), so for me it's nothing to do with mastering. That's about the one thing in Awake's favour in terms of production.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: Production
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2010, 09:14:34 PM »
Nah I was just comparing extremes. I do see what you mean about the reverb but it doesn't bother me as much.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Production
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2010, 09:18:17 PM »
Just personal preference. It's not that it bothers me either. To call Awake's production anywhere near bad is a stretch, but I don't think it's a standout compared to some of their other albums. They have worse sounding albums, but they also have enough better ones.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Production
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2010, 09:27:50 PM »
To me one of Awake's biggest flaws is the sterile production. It's dull. Compare that to the distinctive snappy sound of Images and Words, or the lively and open sound of Falling Into Infinity, and Awake just sounds really choked and lifeless.

I agree that Awake could have more snap, but calling it sterile and/or lifeless just isn't fair. There's FX on everything to make it blend into the sound in a very specific way.

To me it really is a lifeless sounding album. It's a very well recorded album, but for me all of that reverb just makes it fade into the distance rather than anything feeling upfront and have any presence. Nothing has any kick.
And this is coming from someone whose favourite sounding albums are all from that era too.

I like that feeling though. Awake is an album about personal turmoil and Scarred emotions. While on one level the emotions are very energetic and enrapturing, trying to give it a more warm quality like I&W would be a huge mistake. The music should feel very cold and distant.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Production
« Reply #40 on: February 10, 2010, 09:31:34 PM »
To me one of Awake's biggest flaws is the sterile production. It's dull. Compare that to the distinctive snappy sound of Images and Words, or the lively and open sound of Falling Into Infinity, and Awake just sounds really choked and lifeless.

I agree that Awake could have more snap, but calling it sterile and/or lifeless just isn't fair. There's FX on everything to make it blend into the sound in a very specific way.

To me it really is a lifeless sounding album. It's a very well recorded album, but for me all of that reverb just makes it fade into the distance rather than anything feeling upfront and have any presence. Nothing has any kick.
And this is coming from someone whose favourite sounding albums are all from that era too.

I like that feeling though. Awake is an album about personal turmoil and Scarred emotions. While on one level the emotions are very energetic and enrapturing, trying to give it a more warm quality like I&W would be a huge mistake. The music should feel very cold and distant.

Isn't cold and distant just a roundabout way of saying sterile though? I mean, if that was their decision to make it sound like that to fit the music, then that's their artistic decision, and that's ok, but to me it detracts from the album. But then again, to me the entire mood is something I don't like, and one of the reasons I don't like the album anyway, so I guess all of my biases of the album go hand in hand there.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Production
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2010, 09:33:28 PM »
On a PC or an iPod, I can almost (but not quite :p) see why one would think Awake doesn't sound as good as some of their other albums, but on a good stereo system, it sounds nothing short of fantastic.  I was at a friend's house a few weeks ago, and he played me a few songs from different albums on his newest system (he prides himself on getting THE best stuff, and he usually does), and the songs he played from Awake sounded magnificent.  It is just a terrific-sounding CD all-around; you just need to listen to it on a really good system to hear its total quality.

And, honestly, from a "sound" standpoint, I would have to question the ears of anyone who listens to WDADU, SFAM and OV on a really good system and thinks any of those "sound" nearly as good as Awake or FII, for example.  It really isn't close.

Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Production
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2010, 09:38:15 PM »
Agreed with Kev, Awake on a music player that is good makes it come alive. Otherwise, it does feel flat. Then again, maybe that's a technological transition issue. Music back then was meant to be heard on stereos and such, usually.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Production
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2010, 09:49:05 PM »
Quote
On a PC or an iPod, I can almost (but not quite ) see why one would think Awake doesn't sound as good as some of their other albums, but on a good stereo system, it sounds nothing short of fantastic.

Definitely!  It seems to me like most music made nowadays is meant to be played right in your ear, or as loud as possible.  Albums like "Awake" or Fates Warning's "Parallels" have way different feels, and are definitely the kind of albums that aren't meant to be listened to on MP3 players like most newer albums are.  I definitely hear you on this.  But I disagree about Octavarium.  That album sounds unique and amazing no matter how it's listened to...


Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Production
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2010, 09:49:10 PM »
On a PC or an iPod, I can almost (but not quite :p) see why one would think Awake doesn't sound as good as some of their other albums, but on a good stereo system, it sounds nothing short of fantastic.  I was at a friend's house a few weeks ago, and he played me a few songs from different albums on his newest system (he prides himself on getting THE best stuff, and he usually does), and the songs he played from Awake sounded magnificent.  It is just a terrific-sounding CD all-around; you just need to listen to it on a really good system to hear its total quality.

And, honestly, from a "sound" standpoint, I would have to question the ears of anyone who listens to WDADU, SFAM and OV on a really good system and thinks any of those "sound" nearly as good as Awake or FII, for example.  It really isn't close.


I have all of my DT in lossless with an expensive set of headphones running through a high quality soundcard, and it still sounds completely flat and lifeless. It's a flood of reverb. FII, IaW, SDOIT all sound miles better than Awake.
SFAM is definitely a rougher sounding album, but it sounds a lot more lively and energetic. Octavarium is not at all a bad sounding album, although it doesn't have a lot of character. And obviously WDADU is a lot worse. I'd say that Awake sits about middle of the road for DT albums. As I said, DT have worse sounding albums, but they still have several much better sounding ones, and Awake is no standout.
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Offline DarkLord_Lalinc

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Re: Production
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2010, 10:13:47 PM »
My favorite album (both by sound and the music contained in it) is 6DOIT. It sounds so rich and I can hear every instrument so clear and crisp (yes, even the bass).
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: Production
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2010, 11:16:35 PM »
Isn't cold and distant just a roundabout way of saying sterile though?

I don't see it that way. Systematic Chaos is an album that strikes me as sterile. I've listened to the album itself and the stems from the surround mix over and over again, and from a production standpoint there's just nothing there except compression and some drum reverb. There's just nothing. I don't even necessarily mind it, but SC is a very sterile album.

Whereas with Awake, the productin decisions feel very conscious. The hats are all sparkle with no warms. Even the distorted guitars have some reverb on them to add to the metallic and distant quality. The snare has tons of reverb to git the sound a crazy twist and pull it away from the listener. The vocals have very lush and standard production in order to anchor the found for the listener at its emotional focal point. (The same can be said for the kick drum in providing a rhythmic anchor). It's a mix with a lot going on, kinda the opposite of sterile, no?

Quote
I mean, if that was their decision to make it sound like that to fit the music, then that's their artistic decision, and that's ok, but to me it detracts from the album. But then again, to me the entire mood is something I don't like, and one of the reasons I don't like the album anyway, so I guess all of my biases of the album go hand in hand there.

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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Production
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2010, 11:28:25 PM »
Isn't cold and distant just a roundabout way of saying sterile though?

I don't see it that way. Systematic Chaos is an album that strikes me as sterile. I've listened to the album itself and the stems from the surround mix over and over again, and from a production standpoint there's just nothing there except compression and some drum reverb. There's just nothing. I don't even necessarily mind it, but SC is a very sterile album.

Whereas with Awake, the productin decisions feel very conscious. The hats are all sparkle with no warms. Even the distorted guitars have some reverb on them to add to the metallic and distant quality. The snare has tons of reverb to git the sound a crazy twist and pull it away from the listener. The vocals have very lush and standard production in order to anchor the found for the listener at its emotional focal point. (The same can be said for the kick drum in providing a rhythmic anchor). It's a mix with a lot going on, kinda the opposite of sterile, no?

Quote
I mean, if that was their decision to make it sound like that to fit the music, then that's their artistic decision, and that's ok, but to me it detracts from the album. But then again, to me the entire mood is something I don't like, and one of the reasons I don't like the album anyway, so I guess all of my biases of the album go hand in hand there.

Pretty much.

Systematic Chaos mainly sounds sterile from being too dry and overcompressed, but under that you can still hear a lot of energy, which I don't hear on Awake. So it's as bad as Awake for the exact opposite reason. And yet with all of that dynamic range, Awake doesn't do a lot with it because of being too wet.
Awake's vocals sound great with the reverb, but when you dial it up on everything, it takes the punch out of it, which doesn't work well for the guitars and drums. For an album featuring quadruple tracked guitars, the guitars don't cut through all that well, and the kick and snare don't have a lot of punch either. I'll definitely give you that the cymbals sound great though. SC's cymbals and hats are just mixed way too low and don't have much presence. Awake has a much better drum mix, and a good sound, but the reverb takes the edge off everything for me.
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Offline j

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Re: Production
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2010, 12:45:28 AM »
My favorite album (both by sound and the music contained in it) is 6DOIT. It sounds so rich and I can hear every instrument so clear and crisp (yes, even the bass).

Really?  What Blob said about Awake is kind of the way I feel about SDOIT and Octavarium.  I can't describe it (and I'm sure I don't have the musician's ear that most of you probably do), but these albums sound a little shallow and flat or something.

ToT doesn't sound great either, but I assume that's because of the metal edge they were going for.  SC of course is the usual bad production goat, but I don't think it's any worse than any of the others I've mentioned, albeit for different reasons.

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Offline tri.ad

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Re: Production
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2010, 05:30:41 AM »
Without judging the production quality of the respective albums in terms of being "lifeless" or not, I think that the drums (or rather the sound of them) play a big role when it comes to create a certain sonic atmosphere. Of course, all the other instruments do that as well, but not quite to the extent as the drums. This particularly shows in how distinctive the drums sound on the respective DT albums.
Nowadays, the common production doesn't allow such a distinctive atmosphere anymore, for reasons we all know (see SC, Death Magnetic or Dance Of Death).
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Re: Production
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2010, 06:34:57 AM »
My favorite album (both by sound and the music contained in it) is 6DOIT. It sounds so rich and I can hear every instrument so clear and crisp (yes, even the bass).

Really?  What Blob said about Awake is kind of the way I feel about SDOIT and Octavarium.  I can't describe it (and I'm sure I don't have the musician's ear that most of you probably do), but these albums sound a little shallow and flat or something.

ToT doesn't sound great either, but I assume that's because of the metal edge they were going for.  SC of course is the usual bad production goat, but I don't think it's any worse than any of the others I've mentioned, albeit for different reasons.

-J

The main problem with SDoiT is the snare sound, other than that I really like the depth of the production. Something like the awesome first 2 minutes of Misunderstood would never have worked as well without that depth. ToT is my 2nd least favorite production after WDaDU.

In response to TAC's post - no, I don't think ACOS sounds bad at all. I'm on the side of the fence that loves that snare sound.

Offline 2Timer

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Re: Production
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2010, 01:59:13 PM »
On a PC or an iPod, I can almost (but not quite :p) see why one would think Awake doesn't sound as good as some of their other albums, but on a good stereo system, it sounds nothing short of fantastic.  I was at a friend's house a few weeks ago, and he played me a few songs from different albums on his newest system (he prides himself on getting THE best stuff, and he usually does), and the songs he played from Awake sounded magnificent.  It is just a terrific-sounding CD all-around; you just need to listen to it on a really good system to hear its total quality.

And, honestly, from a "sound" standpoint, I would have to question the ears of anyone who listens to WDADU, SFAM and OV on a really good system and thinks any of those "sound" nearly as good as Awake or FII, for example.  It really isn't close.


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Offline Nic35

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Re: Production
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2010, 03:16:38 PM »
I agree that Awake is their best sounding album, especially the because of the drum. The bass drum sounds amazing.
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Re: Production
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2010, 04:58:40 PM »
I think that Falling Into Infinity is their best sounding album in terms of sound production. The 'space' in the production is amazing. Some great reverbs at work there. Although the snare drum is an acquired taste. I personally like it.
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Offline emindead

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Re: Production
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2010, 06:21:03 PM »
Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do.
Of course not. Multiply that ego x2 and you are fucked. Two Mike Portnoy's in studio make the albums be the way they are.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Production
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2010, 08:31:03 PM »
Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do.
Of course not. Multiply that ego x2 and you are fucked. Two Mike Portnoy's in studio make the albums be the way they are.

Oh yeah.  It's not like Mike can't just write parts for instruments he doesn't know how to use.

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Re: Production
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2010, 09:26:15 AM »
Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do.
Of course not. Multiply that ego x2 and you are fucked. Two Mike Portnoy's in studio make the albums be the way they are.

Oh yeah.  It's not like Mike can't just write parts for instruments he doesn't know how to use.

But you can direct what the players do or don't do. Mike has been described (self-described, and by others in the band) as "creative director" of sorts for the band. That means a lot of things, but it also means he shapes the overall scope of what they are doing.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Production
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2010, 09:30:51 AM »
Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do.
Of course not. Multiply that ego x2 and you are fucked. Two Mike Portnoy's in studio make the albums be the way they are.

Oh yeah.  It's not like Mike can't just write parts for instruments he doesn't know how to use.

But you can direct what the players do or don't do. Mike has been described (self-described, and by others in the band) as "creative director" of sorts for the band. That means a lot of things, but it also means he shapes the overall scope of what they are doing.

I'd be very surprised if Mike's "creative directing" went beyond him saying things like "play something heavy here," or "I don't like that, play something else."  I can't imagine Mike having more influence over the actual music that John or Jordan in any scenario.

Offline orcus116

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Re: Production
« Reply #58 on: February 12, 2010, 10:07:33 AM »
That's probably true. I do think Mike is easily impressed, though, and has this thing where anything that comes out of John and Jordans fingers is instant gold. Might not be true but I have a strong feeling that that's the case. There's also the problem with going for the 'best of the worst' or however you wanna call it, especially if you look at how they handled Mike's vocal section in Nightmare. That's a terrible way of constructing a song where you have 4 options ranging from meh to suck and can't even bother thinking that maybe you might have to go with option 5 which is rewrite the whole thing.

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: Production
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2010, 10:13:24 AM »
I believe they with option 1 which was "don't listen to what some random guy on the internet says, and write music how they want it"
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Offline orcus116

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Re: Production
« Reply #60 on: February 12, 2010, 10:18:23 AM »
How constructive.

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Re: Production
« Reply #61 on: February 12, 2010, 10:37:05 AM »
Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do.
Of course not. Multiply that ego x2 and you are fucked. Two Mike Portnoy's in studio make the albums be the way they are.

Oh yeah.  It's not like Mike can't just write parts for instruments he doesn't know how to use.

But you can direct what the players do or don't do. Mike has been described (self-described, and by others in the band) as "creative director" of sorts for the band. That means a lot of things, but it also means he shapes the overall scope of what they are doing.

I'd be very surprised if Mike's "creative directing" went beyond him saying things like "play something heavy here," or "I don't like that, play something else."  I can't imagine Mike having more influence over the actual music that John or Jordan in any scenario.

I never said either way how involved it would be. But telling a player "do this here," "go with a heavy part here," or even "I don't like that, do something else" is a significant part of creating music. Things get tossed aside that may be good, and things get used that perhaps aren't all that good.

I think all I was saying, overall, is that what happened to DT with FII ended any hope of MP ever allowing someone else to do something to DT's music that he doesn't approve of. Meaning, he won't work outside of his own box. And that is part of the reason (not the entire) that some people have said DT music is getting stale and sorta samey-sounding.

I'd love for MP to just say "ok, I have a producer in mind that I really like, and this album, I am doing NOTHING but playing the drums to what John, Jordan and JP come up with," and just wing it a bit. I'm not saying Dream Theater should allow a producer to turn them into a pop band (i.e. - Megadeth with Risk). What I'm saying is, a heavy hand even for a band leader, isn't always good. Sometimes, it's nice to just let things flow and see where it takes you. You might discover something you never even thought of before.
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Offline TL

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Re: Production
« Reply #62 on: February 12, 2010, 12:58:27 PM »
Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do.
Of course not. Multiply that ego x2 and you are fucked. Two Mike Portnoy's in studio make the albums be the way they are.
Okay, the thought/mental image of two Portnoy's in the studio working on something is both awesome and hilarious. Especially if both are in high energy/super excitable mode at the same time.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Production
« Reply #63 on: February 12, 2010, 06:58:47 PM »
Quote
I never said either way how involved it would be. But telling a player "do this here," "go with a heavy part here," or even "I don't like that, do something else" is a significant part of creating music. Things get tossed aside that may be good, and things get used that perhaps aren't all that good.

I'm sure Mike does a good bit of rejecting, but again, I think his role in the band is definitely overstated.  While he pretty much is the "creative manager" of the band, I think it's pretty much safe to say that both Black Clouds and Systematic Chaos were moreso the creation of Petrucci.  Petrucci writes at least half of the music (I'd say that's a conservative estimate given amount of solo sections),  as well as 8 of the last 13 lyrics (compare that to Mike's 3).  So that means John's written the greater part of both of the last album's music and vocal melodies.  

Though I've seen videos of Mike messing around with guitars, I doubt he has the skill to actually write the band's music.  Going just by what we know about how they write,  I think it's safe to say that John and Jordan write most of the music, and Mike acts as the producer from behind the kit (moreso than some Daniel Gildenlow type creative dictator).  Mike (and John, to a lesser extent) is basically is the guy responsible for telling the other guys whether he likes what they're doing or not, and suggesting they add or take out or move around certain sections around.  We might question Mike's decisions, but I'm not sure I think the results would be any better with someone other than a band member filling in as producer.

Offline emindead

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Re: Production
« Reply #64 on: February 12, 2010, 08:55:07 PM »
Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do.
Of course not. Multiply that ego x2 and you are fucked. Two Mike Portnoy's in studio make the albums be the way they are.

Oh yeah.  It's not like Mike can't just write parts for instruments he doesn't know how to use.

But you can direct what the players do or don't do. Mike has been described (self-described, and by others in the band) as "creative director" of sorts for the band. That means a lot of things, but it also means he shapes the overall scope of what they are doing.
Exactly.

And can I point out that you wrote MP and Portnoy instead of JP and Portnoy, hence my joke ;)

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Production
« Reply #65 on: February 12, 2010, 09:34:22 PM »
 :facepalm:

I totally didn't catch that.

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Re: Production
« Reply #66 on: February 12, 2010, 10:41:41 PM »
:facepalm:

I totally didn't catch that.

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Re: Production
« Reply #67 on: February 12, 2010, 10:50:32 PM »

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Re: Production
« Reply #68 on: February 13, 2010, 04:12:11 AM »
:facepalm:

I totally didn't catch that.

See? That's why you needed a producer.
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