Production

[2Timer]

I'm about halfway through Lifting Shadows (for the second time), and I have really been paying attention to how many problems they have had with producers, and it seems that the work that they did with Prater got pretty much the best reviews so far in my opinion as far as been 'crisp' and other adjectives that I can't remember right now. I think it would be interesting to hear what would happen if DT were to record all of their albums the way they want to, and then have Prater at the helm to record them his way. I know it'll never happen and I'm not suggesting that they do this, but wouldn't it be cool to hear all the differences there would be? I'd also like to see a picture of Prater before and after all the work was done, because I'm sure he'd have a lot more scars afterward.

[Perpetual Change]

I&W sounds O.K. and has character despite its problems, but I think ACoS sounds like shit.  So I hope Prater stays away from all future DT projects.

[Ben_Jamin]

I&W wouldn't really have the same feeling without the triggered drums. They give it that unique mood which everyone liked.

[ReaPsTA]

The recordings on I&W are incredible, especially the guitars.

[Adami]

I still think DT need a producer. However, they need a producer who understands their sound, not someone trying to make them fit a different mold.

[King Postwhore]

I still think DT need a producer. However, they need a producer who understands their sound, not someone trying to make them fit a different mold.

Adami is dead on.  When Rush Got peter Collins to do Power Windows is gave a boost of energy into the band and the same could be said for Nick Raskulinecz producing S & A.  Though I understand it might be a money issue for DT and that MP & JP want to be hands on also.

[TL]

Rather than bringing in a full-on producer, DT should bring in Steven Wilson for some informal suggestions. As most people here are probably aware, Wilson, in addition to being friends with MP, has done some great producing work (Opeth's "Damnation" album, for example), and really understands the importance of both mastering, and the actual sounds of the album. The last few Porcupine Tree albums have been fantastic in those regards (as well as also being great albums).

Other than that, I think BC&SL proved that DT don't really need any outside help.

[robwebster]

I still think DT need a producer. However, they need a producer who understands their sound, not someone trying to make them fit a different mold.

I don't think they need a producer...

But I can't see a world in which Paul Northfield co-producing the eleventh DT would be anything other than a brillant thing. I think he'd be a fantastic sixth member.

[BlobVanDam]

I&W sounds O.K. and has character despite its problems, but I think ACoS sounds like shit.  So I hope Prater stays away from all future DT projects.

This, although I really like IaW's production (although it is a bit lacking in some areas, it's very well recorded). ACOS is pretty rough sounding though. Also, I don't know how Prater's recordings sound now. A lot has changed in 15-20 years. Personally I'd love for them to bring back Kevin Shirley. FII and SDOIT, definitely two of their best sounding albums.

[Perpetual Change]

Part of my problem with A Change of Seasons is similar to the problems I find myself having with the Fates Warning stuff.  I'm sorry, but there's absolutely no reason why an album from 1995 should sound that way. 

[Mebert78]

I&W wouldn't really have the same feeling without the triggered drums. They give it that unique mood which everyone liked.

I agree.  I love them too.  I've also been listening to all of early-to-mid 1990's Rush this week and I noticed that they also used triggered drums around that time.  I never really paid that close attention to it before reading Lifting Shadows, so it's been standing out to me now.  It has a clean crisp sound.  I like it.

[Perpetual Change]

The triggered drum isn't my problem with Images And Words.  It's that everything else, including the other drums, seem to get buried in the process.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm a supporter of the triggered drums. Hearing Live in Tokyo often makes me wish they'd recorded the real drums, but the triggered drums have a distinctive sound that I consider part of the charm of the early 90s sound of IaW.

[reneranucci]

Kevin Shirley is the (Cave)man

[Fiery Winds]

I wouldn't mind DT having a producer be more involved in the process.  The way I see it, with DT already writing and recording so quickly, they could use another fresh set of ears to refine the sound. 

[sneakyblueberry]

Rather than bringing in a full-on producer, DT should bring in Steven Wilson for some informal suggestions. As most people here are probably aware, Wilson, in addition to being friends with MP, has done some great producing work (Opeth's "Damnation" album, for example), and really understands the importance of both mastering, and the actual sounds of the album.

I agree with this post, and to be honest I don't see an outside producer working any other way.  We know that MP and JP like having their total control too much to allow someone else to produce in the way Prater did in the past.

[AwakeFromOctavarium]

In terms of production, nothing beats this album.

AWAKE

[petrucci07]

In terms of production, nothing beats this album.

AWAKE

Awake is one of the best sounding albums I've ever heard. And I'm a big Porcupine Tree fan. I think that says alot.

[Samsara]

I still think DT need a producer. However, they need a producer who understands their sound, not someone trying to make them fit a different mold.

I agree. Northfield does understand them, but frankly, I don't think MP and JP allow him any control. Sure, they allow him to give input, but I seriously doubt JP and MP will do anything they disagree with. It's a trust issue.

Frankly, I always thought Jimbo Barton (Queensryche's Empire, Fates Warning's Parallels, Saraya's When the Blackbird Sings) would be perfect for DT, sound-wise.

But DT has Northfield, and if they aren't getting a great sound with him, then I am starting to think it's not the producers, but the band not allowing an engineer/producer to make decisions, just allowing them input.

[reneranucci]

In terms of production, nothing beats this album.

AWAKE

What? It´s the most sterile sounding album I´ve heard from them.

[Adami]

When I say a producer, I'm not even talking about sound quality issues. I think they're doing pretty good with that. I'm talking about a 3rd party person who can point out things about their songs that DT are too close to notice. Someone who can say "ok guys, this section clearly has nothing to do with the rest of the song" or "Hey, JR why don't you try a less synthy approach" or "hey jlb, put down the shovel and sing" and so forth.

[TAC]

Jeesh, Today I learned that ACOS didn't sound good. Do you guys really think that?

[Samsara]

When I say a producer, I'm not even talking about sound quality issues. I think they're doing pretty good with that. I'm talking about a 3rd party person who can point out things about their songs that DT are too close to notice. Someone who can say "ok guys, this section clearly has nothing to do with the rest of the song" or "Hey, JR why don't you try a less synthy approach" or "hey jlb, put down the shovel and sing" and so forth.

Ok. Fully agreed then. Been saying that forever, myself. But it's the same problem I mentioned earlier. Trust. Portnoy and MP don't want anyone telling them what to do. THey allow input, but at the end of the day, they aren't going to trust someone else's opinion to do something that may run counter to their comfort zones.

I FULLY agree with you, Adami, I just don't think, based on what happened in the past with MP and producers, and why he almost quit the band, that we'll ever see that sort thing happen. Total control was what MP wanted to stay in DT. He got it. He's never giving it up when it comes to those things.

[Adami]

I dunno. I like having total control of my songs as well. But sometimes having someone point things out to me that I didn't notice is helpful.

[Samsara]

I dunno. I like having total control of my songs as well. But sometimes having someone point things out to me that I didn't notice is helpful.

Well yeah, who wouldn't? But at the end of the day, as I have learned, someone always knows something better than you do. I'm a writer, and a damn good one. But I'd be a fool if I didn't let an editor look at my stuff and make changes to it. As long as the changes make sense and make it a better product, I'm completely ok with it.

The Tesla story I just wrote and published. One of my staff folks looked it over, tweaked two of my paragraphs (sentence changes) and removed another one. Could my original have been published as it was? Certainly. But did the changes made make sense and make it a better story? Yes. So I put my ego aside and let those changes be made, even if I might think what I wrote initially was just fine.

And I also do that (be an editor) for the same guy, and re-write sections and re-order his work from time to time as it is necessary. I pass it back to him, and 99 percent of the time, he signs off on it...even though I may have made a significant change. It's called trust in someone else to help something good, get better. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but you have to take those chances.

That's what Mike Portnoy can't do. He felt he got burned so badly, that now he can't let anyone do anything to DT's music that he doesn't necessarily agree with...even if the person suggesting the changes knows what they are talking about.

now, I'm not saying I KNOW what goes on behind the scenes. Of course I don't.

All I DO know is, given all the comments I have read from Mike over the past decade, I feel he doesn't trust anyone to make decisions on the band's work, other than himself and JP. People can give input, but he doesn't trust anyone enough to go against his own vision once in awhile, and try something that may be a little different. And that all stems from the bad experiences of years ago, and his own ego.

MP does a ton of great things, and I have a lot of respect for how much he gives to fans. But like anyone, he has some failings, and his (in my opinion) unwillingness to let go of some of that creative control and decision making is making Dream Theater really one-dimensional and stale.

[King Postwhore]

I'm a supporter of the triggered drums. Hearing Live in Tokyo often makes me wish they'd recorded the real drums, but the triggered drums have a distinctive sound that I consider part of the charm of the early 90s sound of IaW.

My friend who is a drummer can not stand the tiggered sound.  He told me that you miss all the little nuances that a drummer does like shadowing. 

[orcus116]

I dunno. I like having total control of my songs as well. But sometimes having someone point things out to me that I didn't notice is helpful.

Well yeah, who wouldn't? But at the end of the day, as I have learned, someone always knows something better than you do. I'm a writer, and a damn good one. But I'd be a fool if I didn't let an editor look at my stuff and make changes to it. As long as the changes make sense and make it a better product, I'm completely ok with it.

The Tesla story I just wrote and published. One of my staff folks looked it over, tweaked two of my paragraphs (sentence changes) and removed another one. Could my original have been published as it was? Certainly. But did the changes made make sense and make it a better story? Yes. So I put my ego aside and let those changes be made, even if I might think what I wrote initially was just fine.

And I also do that (be an editor) for the same guy, and complete re-write and re-order his work from time to time as it is necessary. I pass it back to him, and 99 percent of the time, he signs off on it...even though I may have made a significant change. It's called trust in someone else to help something good, get better. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but you have to take those chances.

That's what Mike Portnoy can't do. He felt he got burned so badly, that now he can't let anyone do anything to DT's music that he doesn't necessarily agree with...even if the person suggesting the changes knows what they are talking about.

now, I'm not saying I KNOW what goes on behind the scenes. Of course I don't.

All I DO know is, given all the comments I have read from Mike over the past decade, I feel he doesn't trust anyone to make decisions on the band's work, other than himself and JP. People can give input, but he doesn't trust anyone enough to go against his own vision once in awhile, and try something that may be a little different. And that all stems from the bad experiences of years ago, and his own ego.

MP does a ton of great things, and I have a lot of respect for how much he gives to fans. But like anyone, he has some failings, and his (in my opinion) unwillingness to let go of some of that creative control and decision making is making Dream Theater really one-dimensional and stale.

Excellent points. I personally love having people edit my stuff because the extra set of eyes/ears/whatever always ends up making it better. But even if they refuse to have producers I just really wish DT would make a song and let it sit for awhile before recording it to see if it actually sounds good. Hell why not debut songs live like bands used to do and gauge the reactions? Aging is partially what made the songs on Images and Words so great and while they might get lucky nowadays and catch lightning in a bottle on the first try there seems to be more and more lost potential with each album.

[Perpetual Change]

I don't know, the band are doing pretty good self-produced.  Especially now that they have an outside guy working on producing the vocals.  Still, it would have been nice if there "Dark Masterx8" got edited out.

[FlashCE]

I'm a supporter of the triggered drums. Hearing Live in Tokyo often makes me wish they'd recorded the real drums, but the triggered drums have a distinctive sound that I consider part of the charm of the early 90s sound of IaW.

My friend who is a drummer can not stand the tiggered sound.  He told me that you miss all the little nuances that a drummer does like shadowing. 

Yeah, but no one except drummers actually care about nuances.

[BlobVanDam]

In terms of production, nothing beats this album.

AWAKE

What? It´s the most sterile sounding album I´ve heard from them.

THANK YOU. It's not a bad sounding album by any stretch, but definitely plain and lifeless compared to their others. Everything is flat sounding, which is a shame considering that the album before and after are possibly their most lively and energetic sounding recordings.

[hefdaddy42]

I just don't get how you can think Awake sounds sterile.  To me, it sounds alive.

[BlobVanDam]

To me one of Awake's biggest flaws is the sterile production. It's dull. Compare that to the distinctive snappy sound of Images and Words, or the lively and open sound of Falling Into Infinity, and Awake just sounds really choked and lifeless.

[Perpetual Change]

Awake sounds awesome.  Except for The Mirror and Lie, which just sound bland.

[ReaPsTA]

To me one of Awake's biggest flaws is the sterile production. It's dull. Compare that to the distinctive snappy sound of Images and Words, or the lively and open sound of Falling Into Infinity, and Awake just sounds really choked and lifeless.

I agree that Awake could have more snap, but calling it sterile and/or lifeless just isn't fair. There's FX on everything to make it blend into the sound in a very specific way.

[BlobVanDam]

To me one of Awake's biggest flaws is the sterile production. It's dull. Compare that to the distinctive snappy sound of Images and Words, or the lively and open sound of Falling Into Infinity, and Awake just sounds really choked and lifeless.

I agree that Awake could have more snap, but calling it sterile and/or lifeless just isn't fair. There's FX on everything to make it blend into the sound in a very specific way.

To me it really is a lifeless sounding album. It's a very well recorded album, but for me all of that reverb just makes it fade into the distance rather than anything feeling upfront and have any presence. Nothing has any kick.
And this is coming from someone whose favourite sounding albums are all from that era too.