A thought on Octavarium

[Perpetual Change]

Today, I thought of one reason why Octavarium is still probably the band's most underrated album.  It's so hard to digest, because after TROAE the energy level plummets.  Usually, for an album to feel consistent, there needs to be a "one-two" punch of opening songs.  This is the forumla that works on plenty of great albums, including DT's Awake and PT's In Absentia and DT's Addicted.

What if 8va were set up like this?

1. TROAE
2. Panic Attack
3. These Walls
4. IWBY
5. NE
6. TALW
7. SS
8. 8va


Would you like it better?


Would you at least feel like it was better?






















Of course, that'd fuck up the whole concept but oh well

[lateralus88]

It's an interesting thought, but Octavarium is already my favourite DT album, so changing the order might fuck that up for me.

But in terms of how other people see it, I can see it having some level of affect.

[Ultimetalhead]

Reordering a concept album is a bad idea.

Seriously, I think the pacing is fine the way it is.

[Jamesman42]

It's an interesting thought, but Octavarium is already my favourite DT album, so changing the order might fuck that up for me.

But in terms of how other people see it, I can see it having some level of affect.

Holy crap, 8VM is your favorite DT album?

Dude! o/

[lateralus88]

*\o

[BlobVanDam]

I'm not sure how I'd feel about re-ordering it. At the moment it seems to alternate between the great songs and the weaker songs. The weaker songs disrupt the flow of the album and stop any part of the album having a good 1-2 punch, but sticking them all together like that would have created a huge drag in the middle of the album.
Octavarium's strength and weakness is its diversity, and I think as an album it works best as it is, for better or worse.

[contest_sanity]

It's a thoughtful proposal, but I have to say I really love the 1-2 rocking punch in the middle of the album with PA and NE.  I wouldn't want to lose that.  Plus, I&W starts with PMU, followed by 'Another Day,' and yet it is the standard-bearer of all DT albums.  Not that I am suggesting TALW is even worthy to tie 'Another Day's' shoes.  So maybe the difference in quality between those two track 2's, not the fact that track 2 is a ballad, is what keeps (or doesn't keep) the momentum of the opening track going.

[El Barto]

The continuity makes up for the weaker songs on the album, IMO.  Honestly, if you just replace IWBY with a song that doesn't make me wretch, the entire album would move up a couple of notches in my book.

[KevShmev]

This could have been a good EP.  Leave off the boring "These Walls," the cringe-worthy "Never Enough," the decent, but ultimately forgettable "The Answer Lies Within," and the overdone, but nothing special "Sacrificed Sons," and you have a good EP of:

"The Root of All Evil"
"I Walk Beside You"
"Panic Attack"
"Octavarium"

Actually, if this were the 70s, that could have been a good full-length studio record.  I know some will say, "Yeah, but leaving off anything ruins the full circle aspect of the title song and blah, blah, blah," but who cares? 

[BlobVanDam]

This could have been a good EP.  Leave off the boring "These Walls," the cringe-worthy "Never Enough," the decent, but ultimately forgettable "The Answer Lies Within," and the overdone, but nothing special "Sacrificed Sons," and you have a good EP of:

"The Root of All Evil"
"I Walk Beside You"
"Panic Attack"
"Octavarium"

Actually, if this were the 70s, that could have been a good full-length studio record.  I know some will say, "Yeah, but leaving off anything ruins the full circle aspect of the title song and blah, blah, blah," but who cares?  

The type of fan who cares about the album as a whole, and appreciates the care that the band put into crafting an album, rather than just a collection of songs.

[contest_sanity]

This could have been a good EP.  Leave off the boring "These Walls," the cringe-worthy "Never Enough," the decent, but ultimately forgettable "The Answer Lies Within," and the overdone, but nothing special "Sacrificed Sons," and you have a good EP of:

"The Root of All Evil"
"I Walk Beside You"
"Panic Attack"
"Octavarium"

Actually, if this were the 70s, that could have been a good full-length studio record.  I know some will say, "Yeah, but leaving off anything ruins the full circle aspect of the title song and blah, blah, blah," but who cares? 

If we're talking the album which might be best as an EP, then I think Systematic Chaos is the best choice.  Or A Change Of Seasons. 

[RandalGraves]

I understand that tracks 2, 4, and 6 are considered the weaker songs, but the fact is the album has a great flow, regardless of song quality, all the way up through Panic Attack.  I wouldn't change the order.

[Plasmastrike]

This could have been a good EP.  Leave off the boring "These Walls," the cringe-worthy "Never Enough," the decent, but ultimately forgettable "The Answer Lies Within," and the overdone, but nothing special "Sacrificed Sons," and you have a good EP of:

"The Root of All Evil"
"I Walk Beside You"
"Panic Attack"
"Octavarium"

Actually, if this were the 70s, that could have been a good full-length studio record.  I know some will say, "Yeah, but leaving off anything ruins the full circle aspect of the title song and blah, blah, blah," but who cares? 

I agree with everything you've said except that I love These Walls. Great tune.

[EmilSumm]

That wouldn't make it better to me. Octavarium is still there.

[hefdaddy42]

What if 8va were set up like this?

1. TROAE
2. Panic Attack
3. These Walls
4. IWBY
5. NE
6. TALW
7. SS
8. 8va


Would you like it better?

No.

Would you at least feel like it was better?

No.

[The Letter M]

I think the pacing of the tracklist is done quite nicely, and works well in the confines of its concepts. I think having a 1-2 Punch wouldn't make much a difference, and besides, "The Root Of All Evil" a pretty heavy track already, and I think "The Answer Lies Within" works great as a breather to it. Likewise with "I Walk Beside You" following "These Walls", and the opening of "Octavarium" after the heavy second-half of "Sacrificed Sons". The album, as a whole, has an up-down-up-down pattern to it (with the slight exception of "Panic Attack"-"Never Enough"), which works great IMO.

I think pretty much any of their other albums could be re-ordered and still sound okay, but I think because the idea behind Octavarium is so stuck inside my mind (and maybe many others' as well), changing the tracklist would pretty much ruin what MP and the rest had in mind for the whole piece.

-Marc.

[Plasmastrike]

  Love Hefs posting

[hefdaddy42]

Love Hefs posting

Rule 13: Omit needless words.

[black_biff_stadler]

I like the idea. I personally tend to soften(give in?) my original disliking of songs I don't like when they occur in groups and I think it's kinda like when you see three skanks in a bar and they're the only girls there at the time so suddenly alpha-skank seems remotely fuckable by comparison despite looking like a hooker you'd see in stock footage from 60 Minutes on first glance.

[Mladen]

Reordering a concept album is a bad idea.

[Plasmastrike]

Love Hefs posting

Rule 13: Omit needless words.

Roger that, sir.

[Super Dude]

In terms of momentum, this is what I'd suggest:

1. TRoAE
2. Panic Attack
3. TALW
4. These Walls
5. Never Enough
6. IWBY
7. Sacrificed Sons
8. 8vm

[robwebster]

I think it's kinda nice as it is.

In fact, if I had to dabble, I'd only make a very small change.



1. The Root of All Evil
2. The Answer Lies Within
3. I Walk Beside You
4. These Walls
5. Panic Attack
6. Never Enough
7. Sacrificed Sons
8. Octavarium

Means that it builds and builds. The slower songs are gonna slow the momentum wherever you put them - this way you get hit in the face, but then it draws straight back, and builds the intensity up again gradually, until These Walls comes to a full stop at its crechendo, pauses and gives way to Act Two, where Panic Attack comes storming in.

I'd put IWBY into A and These Walls into B, too, and leave the interludes in their places and original keys.

[robwebster]

I'd put IWBY into A and These Walls into B, too, and leave the interludes in their places and original keys.

Holy christ. Just put IWBY in A with pitchshift, it actually sounds really cool! James sounds really good a tone lower.

[j]

1. TROAE
2. Panic Attack
3. These Walls
4. IWBY
5. NE
6. TALW
7. SS
8. 8va

I think the above setup (from the OP) might improve the flow a bit (other than ruining the "pseudo-concept").  But unfortunately, rearranging the songs cannot make a mediocre album into a good one.  If I'm honest, the only songs on the album I ever listen to with any sort of consistency are TROAE and the title track.  I could live without everything else.

-J

[kirbywelch92]

I love the pacing of 8VM. What I'm about to say might be blasphemy, but it really reminds me of the pacing of I&W. You have the great opener, one soft song, another great solid song, another sort of softy, and then everything to the end is just great music. I'M NOT AT ALL SAYING THEY ARE OF THE SAME QUALITY, just a same sort of pacing (minus Wait for Sleep of course).

[7StringedBeast]

I think Octavarium the album is of the same quality of I&W and I'm not afraid to say it.  I love Octavarium.  I always go back to that album consistently.

[lateralus88]

I think Octavarium the album is of the same quality of I&W and I'm not afraid to say it.  I love Octavarium.  I always go back to that album consistently.

[bosk1]

I think Octavarium the album is of the same quality of I&W and I'm not afraid to say it.  I love Octavarium.  I always go back to that album consistently.

Same here.  It does have a few songs that sound a bit like filler, but every album (including Images) feels that way.  They key is, the "filler" songs aren't really bad, and the stronger songs are more than enough to make a stellar album. 

Going back to the OP, it seems the impetus for the possible rearrangement was the lack of "1-2 punch" to get the album started.  While I agree with the general principle, I don't think this album suffers for that because (1) the overall pacing is fine, and (2) when you have a longish song (i.e., longer than the standard 2 1/2 - 4 minutes of most bands) already like TROAE, you don't necessarily need a second heavy, energetic song to get that feeling. 

[robwebster]

I think Octavarium the album is of the same quality of I&W and I'm not afraid to say it.  I love Octavarium.  I always go back to that album consistently.

Same. Favourite DT album. With IAW a close second. Fantastic stuff.

[contest_sanity]

Going back to the OP, it seems the impetus for the possible rearrangement was the lack of "1-2 punch" to get the album started.  While I agree with the general principle, I don't think this album suffers for that because (1) the overall pacing is fine, and (2) when you have a longish song (i.e., longer than the standard 2 1/2 - 4 minutes of most bands) already like TROAE, you don't necessarily need a second heavy, energetic song to get that feeling. 

It seems to me that more of DT’s albums lack the 1-2 punch than feature it, but let’s see. 

Those lacking it:

WDADU – 1. AFIL 2. Status Seeker

I&W – 1. PMU 2. Another Day

FII – I wouldn’t really call ‘New Millennium’ a song that “punches,” at least not at the beginning, thought it’s still a great opener

6DOIT (Disc 1) – 1. TGP 2. Blind Faith (the intro loses the punch from TGP, even if it picks back up as you go on)

Octavarium – 1. TROAE 2. TALW

SC – 1. ITPOE pt. 1 2. Forsaken

Those featuring the 1-2 punch:

Awake – 1. 6:00 2. Caught In A Web

SFAM (discounting Regression) – 1. 1928 Overture 2. Strange Déjà Vu

SDOIT (Disc 2) – I. Overture II. About To Crash (This one is arguable).

TOT – 1. As I Am 2. TDS

BC&SL – 1. ANTR 2. AROP

According to my interpretation, the lack of the 1-2 punch wins a hotly contested battle 6 to 5.

[ZKX-2099]

Just switch out The Answer Lies Within and These Walls.

[Dr. SeaWolf]

I actually love every song on Octavarium.  I feel like the album has aged extremely well.  I can't say the same about SC, which I rarely listen to anymore.  I do, however, feel that BCSL will age similarly well to Octavarium, as the album has aged quite well in the months since its release.  I remember SC was stale for me by this point in the year after its release, but BCSL still sounds fresh.  This is a relief for me, as I feel that SC was simply a miss-step between two very good albums.

[austin]

I actually love every song on Octavarium.  I feel like the album has aged extremely well.  I can't say the same about SC, which I rarely listen to anymore.  I do, however, feel that BCSL will age similarly well to Octavarium, as the album has aged quite well in the months since its release.  I remember SC was stale for me by this point in the year after its release, but BCSL still sounds fresh.  This is a relief for me, as I feel that SC was simply a miss-step between two very good albums.

This

Just switch out The Answer Lies Within and These Walls.

also this

It does have a few songs that sound a bit like filler, but every album (including Images) feels that way.

what is this i dont even

[TL]

I'd put IWBY into A and These Walls into B, too, and leave the interludes in their places and original keys.

Holy christ. Just put IWBY in A with pitchshift, it actually sounds really cool! James sounds really good a tone lower.

Trying this now.

...

Aside from the weird effect pitch-shift tends to have on vocals, it sounds pretty cool. Don't know if I prefer it to the normal key, but it's interesting nonetheless.