A question for you music theory nerds

[kirksnosehair]

Hey Everyone,


I was just wondering if someone with more music theory knowledge than me could explain something.  I am musically fluent.  I read and write music.  I play piano, guitar and saxophone primarily, but I also play clarinet, trumpet, flute and bass guitar from time to time.  I have a decent understanding of music theory, though I am far from "expert" level.  In terms of music theory I would probably consider myself to be moderately educated.  I had formal musical education from 4th grade through high school. I understand the modes of the major scale and the cycle of 5ths on a basic level. 


I've been working on the music for The ANABASIS #3 and one of the songs I am working on harkens back to our debut album, which had a very Phrygian mode sound and style.  That's sort of a middle-eastern sounding scale for you non-music theory nerds.


Here's my question:  If you are playing a Phrygian mode scale and you raise the third step of that scale from a minor 3rd to a major 3rd, what would you call that scale?  For lack of a better way of explaining it to my collaborators, I've been referring to it as "Phrygian Major 3rd" but I totally pulled that out of my ass and I'm sure it's complete bullshit. 


Would it simply be referred to as a Phrygian Hybrid, perhaps?  Is there some technical term for this kind of hybrid scale other than "hybrid scale" or do you know what I mean when I simply call it "Phrygian Major 3rd" ?


Thanks in advance for your answers. Just FYI, but I will be offline all day today and driving from Georgia to Massachusetts tomorrow so I won't be able to check back in on this until probably Sunday morning.

[Elite]

That's Mixolydian b9 b13

Also called Phrygian Dominant or Spanish Phrygian, depending on the source.

[Max Kuehnau]

That's Mixolydian b9 b13

Also called Phrygian Dominant or Spanish Phrygian, depending on the source.

which also appears during Home quite a bit (in fact the main theme is based on the scale)

[Lonk]

Wouldn't that be a Phrygian Dominant?

Normal Phrygian is:

1 – ♭2 – ♭3 – 4 – 5 – ♭6 – ♭7 – 1

Dominant Phrygian is:

1 – ♭2 – 3 – 4 – 5 – ♭6 – ♭7 – 1

For easy example, the notes on E Phrygian are:

E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E

The Dominant Phrygian is:

E-F-#G-A-B-C-D-E

I could be wrong, I haven't deal with this in a while so I would need to do some digging to know if I am right.

Elite beat me to it 

[wolfking]

You guys are right.  I find the Phrygian Dominant way more common in metal than regular Phrygian.

[kirksnosehair]

ahhh, yes, I totally get it.  Thank you so much for the replies! 

[TheCountOfNYC]

Phrygian Dominant is the most common name. It’s the fifth mode of Harmonic Minor and the best scale for achieving an Eastern sound while staying in the 12 Tone Western system.

[Elite]

Phrygian Dominant is the most common name.

Ehhh, that really depends on who you ask and in what context you're using the scale. I tend to call it mixolydian b9 b13, because that's way more in line with how I'd generally actually use the scale (as something to use on a dominant chord) than the 'phrygian' name would suggest. But I guess it doesn't really matter, it's the same collections of notes.

[kirksnosehair]

Phrygian Dominant is the most common name. It’s the fifth mode of Harmonic Minor and the best scale for achieving an Eastern sound while staying in the 12 Tone Western system.

Whoa, I hadn't even thought of this.  I mean, I kind of knew it was really close to harmonic minor but never realized it was a direct descendent of the harmonic minor scale.  Nice 

[Kotowboy]

Phrygian Dominant is 

Sounds even cooler with a major 7th too. - which I guess would be Phrygian Dominant #7 [inb4 why i'm completely wrong because Kotowboy]

For ages I was confused about the diff between Locrian and Super Locrian. But I think the diff is Super Locrian has a major third as well as a minor third ?

Also it's funny that B Locrian sounds really dark - but it's really just C major

[Elite]

Phrygian Dominant is the most common name. It’s the fifth mode of Harmonic Minor and the best scale for achieving an Eastern sound while staying in the 12 Tone Western system.

Whoa, I hadn't even thought of this.  I mean, I kind of knew it was really close to harmonic minor but never realized it was a direct descendent of the harmonic minor scale.  Nice 

And since it's the fifth mode of a (minor) scale, that's why it makes more sense to call it Mixolydian, but I'm getting too stuck up in jazz theory here, sorry.

Phrygian Dominant is 

Sounds even cooler with a major 7th too. - which I guess would be Phrygian Dominant #7 [inb4 why i'm completely wrong because Kotowboy]

I don't think that scale has a name, but by all means; use it.

For ages I was confused about the diff between Locrian and Super Locrian. But I think the diff is Super Locrian has a major third as well as a minor third ?

'Super Locrian', better known as the 'altered scale' is a descendant of the melodic minor scale, starting on the seventh degree.

If you want to write it out in degrees, then Locrian contains 1 - b2 - b3 - 4 - b5 - b6 - b7 - 1
Super Locrian is the same, but has the b4 as well, which in turn is the same note as your regular 3 (major third).

[wolfking]

You know your shit Elite, good stuff.  I know the basics but really would like to get deep into that side of it much more.

[Kotowboy]

Phrygian Dominant with a raised 7th is called Flamenco Scale or Phrygian Major

[Kilgore Trout]

And since it's the fifth mode of a (minor) scale, that's why it makes more sense to call it Mixolydian, but I'm getting too stuck up in jazz theory here, sorry.

It makes sense in a tonal jazz context, not in a modal one, or a rock with simple harmonies context.

Phrygian Dominant with a raised 7th is called Flamenco Scale or Phrygian Major

Or double harmonic scale or Byzantine scale or whatever. The scales naming stuff is probably the most uninteresting thing in music theory, especially without context.

[Stadler]

You guys amaze me. Seriously.   

[Kotowboy]

Just don't ask me to explain the difference between G# and Ab



Actually the key of G# Major is funny as it goes

G# A# B# C# D# E# F## G#

[kirksnosehair]

Just don't ask me to explain the difference between G# and Ab

 

Actually the key of G# Major is funny as it goes

G# A# B# C# D# E# F## G#

In terms of pitch they are (obviously) the same note.  How they are expressed is a matter of two possible characteristics related to their context.  First would be what key the song is in.  If the song is in a key that is articulated as "sharp" or # the note will be articulated as G#.  If the song is in a key that is "flat" or b the note will be articulated as Ab.

Outside the context of an entire song, the notes are articulated according to the direction (ascending or descending) the music is moving in.  So if I were to write out a descending scale that had that note in it, I'd use Ab and if I were writing out an ascending scale I'd use A#.   


Using the E major scale as an example here is the E major scale ascending 1 octave:

E F# G# A B C# D# E


And descending 1 octave:


E Eb Db B A Ab Gb E




I could very well be wrong on the mechanics of this, but my piano teacher has always given me hand-written scales to practice and this is how he articulates them based on whether they're ascending or descending scales.  Now he may have been doing this just to help me gain a deeper understanding of intervals and how they are applied to different scales, but he's been very consistent with it, so I am assuming it's proper.


Elite?

[Elite]

You know your shit Elite, good stuff.  I know the basics but really would like to get deep into that side of it much more.

You guys amaze me. Seriously.   

I'm a music and guitar teacher and I've studied musicology and music theory. Most of the time my skills or knowledge have limited use

Phrygian Dominant with a raised 7th is called Flamenco Scale or Phrygian Major

Great, I didn't know that. But I can see why it would exist. The maj7 chord on the third degree makes sense to establish it as a 'home' chord, rather than the dominant 7 in its original state.

Elite?

(not laughing at you, but at the notion of me giving the right answer here).


Honestly, I've never seen scales written out like that before, because that's not exactly how scales work. Any seven note scale should have a note on every letter, so the correct way to write down E major, both ascending and descending would be to use sharps on the F, G, C and D. This is to ensure that every letter gets used exactly once.

However, for example when you're writing piece and you have notes out of key, leading up to a certain note (let's say we have a piece in C major and the melody goes D-D#-E), you would use a sharp, when it would go down, you'd use a flat (E-Eb-D). This is to ensure good readability along the way.

Basically, what you want to do is make sure your music is readable when transcribing it. Mixing up various accidentals will only make stuff confusing for the performer. There's a lot of rules about how to properly write down music and since it doesn't exist in a vacuum (a melody is never there solo, there's bound to be some backing as well), there's no way to go over it all in a short paragraph here.

But really, E major is E-F#-G#-A-B-C#-D#-E. Both up and down

Just don't ask me to explain the difference between G# and Ab

Well, this goes back to the 'every letter had to be used once' thing in scales/key signatures. F minor would be F-G-Ab-Bb-C-Db-Eb-F, with an Ab rather than a G#, while the E major scale has G# (See above). F to Ab is a minor third, while F to G# is an augmented second.

Actually the key of G# Major is funny as it goes

G# A# B# C# D# E# F## G#

And that's why you'll never see that signature on a score, but instead see Ab-Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-G, which is the exact same notes. Doesn't mean F## doesn't exist, it does, but there's a good reason for rarely seeing double sharps and flats in pieces.

[Kilgore Trout]

And that's why you'll never see that signature on a score, but instead see Ab-Bb-C-Db-Eb-F-G, which is the exact same notes. Doesn't mean F## doesn't exist, it does, but there's a good reason for rarely seeing double sharps and flats in pieces.

And then there are people like Alkan or Roslavets who write triple sharps, probably because they hates pianists.

[Kotowboy]

Well in Germany I think H is the key of B or Bb . i can't remember which way around it is. But yeah they use H.

[Kilgore Trout]

Well in Germany I think H is the key of B or Bb . i can't remember which way around it is. But yeah they use H.

H is B in Germany. Latin Europe countries (France, Italy, Spain, etc.) use do rι mi fa sol la si.

[kirksnosehair]

H is B in Germany?     I've never heard of any music using anything other than C-D-E-F-G-A-B

[Max Kuehnau]

H is B in Germany?     I've never heard of any music using anything other than C-D-E-F-G-A-B

Yes. An Englishman's (or American's) B is H in German speaking countries. B flat is equivalent to B in German speaking countries. (I know it's odd.)

[Lonk]

H is B in Germany?     I've never heard of any music using anything other than C-D-E-F-G-A-B

Scale degrees and note letters are the most popular, but there are a lot of people that don't use that system. Personally, I think it's the easiest system to understand.

side note: I do not like Solfege. Not even a little bit.