DT12 Seven Months On

[Implode]

I don't think I've listened to it more than once or twice since September, and I didn't listen to it much then, either.

Same here. Except I listen to IT once in a while.

[emtee]

11 posts comment on sonic/sound/production quality. I really hope DT puts high emphasis on this aspect of DT13. It's just such a
bummer that in this modern tech era that ADToE and DT12 don't sound top notch. They are 2 really good albums full of quality
songs and great playing. They deserve to sound better.

[tiagodon]

I felt like the album was really strong at first.
But now... well, it´s just ok.
Maybe the length of the songs became an important issue to me. Prog metal = long songs.
I love to trip away in DT songs. But I can´t drift away with DT12.
I hardly listen to it. It is lost somewhere in my drawer...
IT is the only song that I feel like listening to sometimes... and that´s it!

[hefdaddy42]

I think it is an incredible achievement.

[Onno]

11 posts comment on sonic/sound/production quality. I really hope DT puts high emphasis on this aspect of DT13. It's just such a
bummer that in this modern tech era that ADToE and DT12 don't sound top notch. They are 2 really good albums full of quality
songs and great playing. They deserve to sound better.

Yeah, pretty much.

[Rodni Demental]

Well, I listen to most of my music when I'm at work, which is gardening. So I'm listening on headphones, or out loud through my cellphone (god help us all, I know). I have a decent 5 speaker surround system with subs at home but sometimes, if I forget headphones for work, I'll literally be hearing the music directly out of my cellphone speakers in my pocket. They're not the worst speakers in the world for a cellphone, but it's times like that where I can appreciate a loud mix so I can actually hear everything. Those sort of mixes are great for generalised (or bad  ) sound systems. I'll also admit that my car stereo is nothing special, so DT12 sounds pretty good when going for a drive.

I listen to the HD tracks version at home because it is more balanced and I like to be able to hear the keyboards, but the standard album mix is actually just fine for other circumstances. In fact, the standard album actually had a pretty good mix considering how loud it is. I mean, it's been praised as the first album in a while where we can clearly hear JMX, yet it's also criticised as being one of the worst album mixes, what gives? I don't know how they pulled off such a loud mix that isn't completely muddy like say, Vapour Trails. So I think it's a bit exaggerated. In fact I might not have even thought much of the mix if I hadn't seen all the talk about it here. So you guys are the reason I even have the HD tracks version (haven't bothered for the other albums yet, but, have been considering it for BL&SL because I want to hear keyboards more in that).

[SuperTaco]

It has a few tracks that still stand out for me, but I haven't listened to it much since the first month or so. I go through different phases with my music and DT12 just hasn't been a part of it recently.

[N4Player]

DT12 grew on me a lot more than I expected. I would say that it sits in the upper mid-pack in terms of my personal ranking. BTV and TEI are my favourites and I never tire from listening to them. There are aspects of the album that I still find a weakness, but I do enjoy the overall album. I'm looking forward to where they go next.

[Dreamer]

Its the album that has after 25 years finally made me a real DT fan. I love every track - its their best album for me no doubt.

[Nefarius]

I like The Looking Glass, The Bigger Picture, and Along For The Ride a lot, maybe some The Enemy Inside if I'm in the mood for it. Considering that's only a third of the album's length and Surrender To Reason and Illumination Theory still don't click with me at all, I'd say it's not exactly my favorite DT album.

Greetings...
Nef

[aprilethereal]

Prog metal = long songs.

[Podaar]

Its the album that has after 25 years finally made me a real DT fan. I love every track - its their best album for me no doubt.

 

Every album should have its share of fans who think it is there best work so I'm glad you stood up to be counted! My favorite is a different album and second place alternates so frequently that on any given day it could easily be DT12. Honestly, if I didn't have some pretty strong nostalgia for some of their earlier work, I'm not sure anything could beat DT12...except for Six Degrees of course. 

[iamtheeviltwin]

Just dusted this one off this morning after a month or two break before I saw this thread.  My opinion of the album is about the same, it is probably one of their most solid and consistent albums with a few great spots, but nothing really outstanding.  I don't listen to this album like I did ADTOE and feel that it is a weaker album overall, but it sits nice and firmly in the middle of the DT pack and as long as they make albums at least as good as DT12 I will be a happy camper every two years or so.   

[kirksnosehair]

It's a bit too accessible I think.  Don't get me wrong, it's still got some of that trademark complexity that we all know and love, but like someone mentioned above, I think they kind of played it safe.  I would not call it a "bad" album or anything like that.  It's still miles ahead of most of the stuff I typically listen to.  The problem is Dream Theater have set a very high bar.


I guess I'd put it in the middle of the pack somewhere.

[tiagodon]

It's a bit too accessible I think.  Don't get me wrong, it's still got some of that trademark complexity that we all know and love, but like someone mentioned above, I think they kind of played it safe.  I would not call it a "bad" album or anything like that.  It's still miles ahead of most of the stuff I typically listen to.  The problem is Dream Theater have set a very high bar.


I guess I'd put it in the middle of the pack somewhere.

You mean this is DT´s most commercial album. And sure it is!

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

It's a bit too accessible I think.  Don't get me wrong, it's still got some of that trademark complexity that we all know and love, but like someone mentioned above, I think they kind of played it safe.  I would not call it a "bad" album or anything like that.  It's still miles ahead of most of the stuff I typically listen to.  The problem is Dream Theater have set a very high bar.


I guess I'd put it in the middle of the pack somewhere.

You mean this is DT´s most commercial album. And sure it is!

I don't really like hearing JP talk the way he does about trying to get TLG on the radio. It's a great song, but I hope they don't start writing songs in hopes of radio play. I don't think they will, but I didn't think they would be so concerned about it being played... Although, I can understand if it's to help draw in a bigger audiance for the next leg of the tour so they can continue to tour for DT12.

[KevShmev]

DT have songs on nearly every album that have/had radio potential.  The Looking Glass just happens to be one of the ones on the newest album that fits that profile.  Don't over think it.

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

DT have songs on nearly every album that have/had radio potential.  The Looking Glass just happens to be one of the ones on the newest album that fits that profile.  Don't over think it.

I love the song, and I would dispute DT12 being the most commercial (it's my 4th favorite DT album). I don't think TLG sounds written to be commercial, and I agree it's just one of "those" songs that happens to be. I just thought the band's interest seemed higher than usual.

You made an excellent point. I won't over think it. 

[BlobVanDam]

Accessible and commercial aren't necessarily one and the same, but I don't agree DT12 is either. Despite the shorter song lengths, it still has the typical twists and turns throughout each song.

Ignoring IT as the major exception, I felt most of the album was in a weird spot where I felt it either needed to be more complex and longer, or even shorter and more accessible. They felt like long songs that were chopped down to be a little too brief. I enjoyed the wider variety of song lengths on ADTOE. That was a perfect balance to me.
After some of their recent albums, I think it's great that they're editing their songs a bit more, perhaps it was just the approach they took to doing so that doesn't quite work for me.

[TheGreatPretender]

I think DT12 is very accessible. I mean, it doesn't have to be consisting of 4 minute "Hollow Years" and "I Walk Beside You" type songs to be accessible. I think the solid foundation of riffs along with a very melodic sensibility on this album makes it very accessible.

[BlobVanDam]

That's the same accessibility that DT has always had though. I'd consider it a feature of their music compared to other prog music. So I don't consider DT12 unique in that regard.

[TheGreatPretender]

That's the same accessibility that DT has always had though. I'd consider it a feature of their music compared to other prog music. So I don't consider DT12 unique in that regard.

Maybe not unique in a "This is the first time they did something this accessible" sort of way, but I would say it's still relatively more accessible than most of their albums. Overall, anyway, I mean, every album has some really accessible songs, but some have songs that I can't imagine people genuinely enjoying. LNF's tickle section, awesome as it is, is a surefire way to scare away a newbie, for example.

Although I did find it interesting that my friend, who's a very casual music listener, and not a rock, or metal or prog fan, really enjoyed the instrumental section of Outcry. I guess good music is universal.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

That's the same accessibility that DT has always had though. I'd consider it a feature of their music compared to other prog music. So I don't consider DT12 unique in that regard.

Maybe not unique in a "This is the first time they did something this accessible" sort of way, but I would say it's still relatively more accessible than most of their albums. Overall, anyway, I mean, every album has some really accessible songs, but some have songs that I can't imagine people genuinely enjoying. LNF's tickle section, awesome as it is, is a surefire way to scare away a newbie, for example.

Although I did find it interesting that my friend, who's a very casual music listener, and not a rock, or metal or prog fan, really enjoyed the instrumental section of Outcry. I guess good music is universal.

It's surprising how enjoyable DT, even in their more complex, proggy songs, can be to someone not versed in the genre or even metal in general. I remember I had my girlfriend while I was dating her listen to Octavarium (the song) in its entirety. Keep in mind she mainly steered towards more mainstream and accessible rock and pop music, as well as being huge on k-pop. Obviously reluctant because of its length, she actually told me she enjoyed it and thought it was amazing how it took you through many different emotions and moods. It wasn't the disaster I thought it would be.

[BlobVanDam]

That's the same accessibility that DT has always had though. I'd consider it a feature of their music compared to other prog music. So I don't consider DT12 unique in that regard.

Maybe not unique in a "This is the first time they did something this accessible" sort of way, but I would say it's still relatively more accessible than most of their albums. Overall, anyway, I mean, every album has some really accessible songs, but some have songs that I can't imagine people genuinely enjoying. LNF's tickle section, awesome as it is, is a surefire way to scare away a newbie, for example.

I could point to many examples on DT12 that would "scare away a newbie" too. No DT album is free from that, nor would we want it to be! That is a core part of their sound.
Aside from DT, I only listen to shorter/poppier rock, and DT12 doesn't appeal to me more on that level than other DT albums. It has relatively more shorter songs, but they don't have the same accessibility as their typical shorter songs imo. They feel like condensed longer songs, like prog-concentrate.

[TheGreatPretender]

It's surprising how enjoyable DT, even in their more complex, proggy songs, can be to someone not versed in the genre or even metal in general. I remember I had my girlfriend while I was dating her listen to Octavarium (the song) in its entirety. Keep in mind she mainly steered towards more mainstream and accessible rock and pop music, as well as being huge on k-pop. Obviously reluctant because of its length, she actually told me she enjoyed it and thought it was amazing how it took you through many different emotions and moods. It wasn't the disaster I thought it would be.

Hey, when I first heard Dream Theater, I was blown away. And at the time, I listened to nothing but Rap. 
I didn't actively start listening and collecting their music until years later, but still, the only reason I did in the first place was because I remembered how amazing it was.

I could point to many examples on DT12 that would "scare away a newbie" too.

Like what? Nothing really comes to mind. I feel like everything about DT12 is easily enjoyable.

[DebraKadabra]

Deb's honest opinion:  I love it... up until Illumination Theory.  Don't get me wrong, IT is not unlistenable.  It's just that Breaking All Illusions into Beneath the Surface IMO is a better album closer.
 
Still a great album though.

[BlobVanDam]

I could point to many examples on DT12 that would "scare away a newbie" too.

Like what? Nothing really comes to mind. I feel like everything about DT12 is easily enjoyable.

I feel like prog fans don't have much context for what is 'accessible" to a regular human that doesn't listen to prog.
Unless you're not counting the 2 wacky instrumentals, or the 20 minute prog epic with long ambient wind chime break followed by the orchestral break and breakneck-speed crazy time sig unisons and back to back guitar/keyboard solos. I could go into specifics as to why humans do not typically enjoy these things, but it should really speak for itself.
I could mention examples in other less obvious songs, but you did say "everything".

I am not saying any of these things are bad of course, I'm just saying these are things we enjoy, but not things that are in any way accessible.

[TheGreatPretender]

Oh please, I'm a casual Prog fan at best. I'm more of a Metal fan, and even then, I still listen to pop and stuff, so give me a LITTLE credit.
But yeah, I guess in my mind, I kind of did omit those three little extremes of the album. 

I mean, FAS is this big, crazy epic intro, so I still think most people would 'get it' as far as taking it as an introduction to the actual album.
As for Engima Machine... Yeah, maybe my point of view is a little skewed by the likes of TDOE, that it doesn't seem that crazy to me. 

As for IT, well, even Octavarium had its title track. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if the average user, listening to IT, would assume that the orchestral section is the beginning of a whole new song.
But mainly I just had the 'average' songs in mind, TEI, TLG, TBP, BTV, STR and AFTR. I feel like those songs are accessible enough for the average user to enjoy. Their personal tastes obviously do matter, but there's nothing too crazy there to scare them off.

[BlobVanDam]

I mean, FAS is this big, crazy epic intro, so I still think most people would 'get it' as far as taking it as an introduction to the actual album.

Most people on this forum don't even seem to "get it"!
Personally I love it, but I don't expect a song that doesn't even appear to be much liked in this fanbase to get much appreciation outside of it either. It would probably get you a "wtf" reaction. If people don't like orchestral pirate metal, that's their loss.

As for IT, well, even Octavarium had its title track. Besides, I wouldn't be surprised if the average user, listening to IT, would assume that the orchestral section is the beginning of a whole new song.
But mainly I just had the 'average' songs in mind, TEI, TLG, TBP, BTV, STR and AFTR. I feel like those songs are accessible enough for the average user to enjoy. Their personal tastes obviously do matter, but there's nothing too crazy there to scare them off.

TEI has the wacky carny break, BTV has the long synth intro, and the synthy solo later on. Those are the only ones that really come to mind.
But structurally and musically they're all still clearly prog influenced too. Accessibility isn't a checklist of "this bit has lots of notes so people won't like it" or "this bit doesn't do wacky stuff, so people will love it". That's not how enjoying music works. The style of the album is still DT's style of prog, and not something I see appealing to the average music listener noticeably more than usual.
And that's ok. We're not the average music listener, which is why we enjoy DT's particular brand of music over the mainstream stuff. They're never going to be a commercial band, and they've done very well for themselves staying true to their core sound.

[TheGreatPretender]

Most people on this forum don't even seem to "get it"!
Personally I love it, but I don't expect a song that doesn't even appear to be much liked in this fanbase to get much appreciation outside of it either. It would probably get you a "wtf" reaction. If people don't like orchestral pirate metal, that's their loss.

Maybe, but it's still over pretty quickly. At least they wouldn't have to sit there thinking, "Man, I don't get this. How much more of this is there left?" As I imagine they might with, say Dance of Eternity.

But structurally and musically they're all still clearly prog influenced too. Accessibility isn't a checklist of "this bit has lots of notes so people won't like it" or "this bit doesn't do wacky stuff, so people will love it". That's not how enjoying music works. The style of the album is still DT's style of prog, and not something I see appealing to the average music listener noticeably more than usual.
And that's ok. We're not the average music listener, which is why we enjoy DT's particular brand of music over the mainstream stuff. They're never going to be a commercial band, and they've done very well for themselves staying true to their core sound.

Exactly. When I say the music accessible, it has nothing to do with how complex it is, or how many twists and turns it makes. But I mean, in that case, we can just say no music anywhere is guaranteed to be accessible to any given person. 

I don't even know how to put it. A lot of people talk about how a lot of DT12 sounds like Rush, and while I can definitely hear it here and there, maybe that's what I think makes it more accessible. Not Rush influence itself, but just a hint of familiarity that keeps it from sounding too alien.

[Dreamer81]

I still love it!!!

[RuRoRul]

Honestly I have mostly only listened to Illumination Theory from itnfor a while now. I don't dislike the other songs or anything but I rarely am motivated to listen to any particular song or to the whole album (I never really felt it had particularly great flow as a whole anyway). It may be an unfair comparison as I probably had more time to listen to music around the time when ADTOE came out, but I never lost as much interest in listening to that album as quickly (and its the only other one that came out since I became a fan).

I would probably pick The Enemy Inside as my second favourite song from DT12 right now. When that song came out, I was happy with it, but I thought it was easily worse than first single from the previous album, OTBOA. Yet that song is my 4th favourite on ADTOE, with a couple more songs very close behind. So apart from IT the other songs on DT12 really underwhelmed. I

[Sir Walrus Cauliflower]

Most people on this forum don't even seem to "get it"!
Personally I love it, but I don't expect a song that doesn't even appear to be much liked in this fanbase to get much appreciation outside of it either. It would probably get you a "wtf" reaction. If people don't like orchestral pirate metal, that's their loss.

Maybe, but it's still over pretty quickly. At least they wouldn't have to sit there thinking, "Man, I don't get this. How much more of this is there left?" As I imagine they might with, say Dance of Eternity.

But structurally and musically they're all still clearly prog influenced too. Accessibility isn't a checklist of "this bit has lots of notes so people won't like it" or "this bit doesn't do wacky stuff, so people will love it". That's not how enjoying music works. The style of the album is still DT's style of prog, and not something I see appealing to the average music listener noticeably more than usual.
And that's ok. We're not the average music listener, which is why we enjoy DT's particular brand of music over the mainstream stuff. They're never going to be a commercial band, and they've done very well for themselves staying true to their core sound.

Exactly. When I say the music accessible, it has nothing to do with how complex it is, or how many twists and turns it makes. But I mean, in that case, we can just say no music anywhere is guaranteed to be accessible to any given person. 

I don't even know how to put it. A lot of people talk about how a lot of DT12 sounds like Rush, and while I can definitely hear it here and there, maybe that's what I think makes it more accessible. Not Rush influence itself, but just a hint of familiarity that keeps it from sounding too alien.

Being their self-titled, It seems to me that DT12 is a more of a showcase of their core sound. Aside from FAS, written to be intro music, I don't hear anything really out of the box and crazy. I can hear influences from many albums, and it seems all the consistency was referenced from their catalog, rather than the experimental parts (SDV, Misunderstood, Disappear, SDOIT disk 2, NE, PoW, etc). I think the reason it's accused of being commercial is because there aren't any really different/weird songs (in my opinion, of course) compared to at least one or two songs on most other albums. 
 
As for accessibility, I don't think there's any way to define it. It's basically the thing closest to what someone likes. If I'm a DT fan and you try to show me your favorite country bands, it's probably best not to give me full on steel guitars and fiddles. It makes it  more accessible to me, but not necessarily country fans who already really enjoy that. The reason I see DT12 considered more accessible is because it's their refined and calculated side, or closer to what most people might happen to like.

EDIT: I apologize for my frequent editing. I'm still getting used to the quote formatting on DTF.

[ZKX-2099]

Best album since Train Of Thought.

[Crow]

I'm fairly certain I haven't listen to any track on the album in some 5 months by now. It's a boring album with absolutely no staying power. Completely destroyed by the various superior released of last year too.