Chaos in Motion: Luna Park 2008

[wolven74]

I thought about asking this in the new album thread, but it's not really related to that so I started this one.

I'm watching Chaos in Motion at the moment, and I noticed something that got me wondering. Was MPs kit bigger than Mangini's? (insert dick joke here ) I seem to recall MP saying somewhere that he had to leave the "Bonham" side of his kit at home because it was logistically too difficult to fit the whole of his kit in the smaller European venues, so he only brought the double bass kit to some countries. On the CIM DVD at Luna Park, he only has the double bass kit. I'm curious how it's possible to have Mangini's mammoth kit brought along to every gig on the last two tours, yet MPs kit got reduced? Any ideas, or does anyone know for sure what's up with that?

[robwebster]

I always thought, when they said it was a logistics issue, they simply meant the logistics of flying the kit around - easy to get it on a coach, much harder to get it on a plane - and therefore it was possible on special occasions, but not perfect.

I could be completely wrong, though. I never looked into it much. Just... that's how I always digested those statements! Usually, to my shame, half-listening.

[wolven74]

I get that it could be a problem to get it around on a plane. But what I'm wondering is if it was so hard to get MPs kit on a plane, how did they get MMs kit around? From what I can see MMs kit is bigger.

[BlobVanDam]

Yeah, I think it was the logistics of the cost of hauling around the extra equipment. It also affected the other members of the band, although not as noticeably. JR didn't haul around the big moogy box on every leg of the Octavarium tour either for the same reason. Shipping isn't cheap!

I'm not sure if Mangini's kit is any smaller/easier to ship around, or if being the first tour with him, maybe they didn't want to create any more trouble for him to adapt to all of these new songs.

It's not that they can't ship the bigger rig around, it's just a cost issue as far as I'm aware.

[robwebster]

Yeah - it's not that it can't be done, it's that it's expensive, and the net result doesn't always justify that expense, especially not on shorter legs like the South American and Asian tours. But this tour, they were recording a three hour DVD-and-BluRay over two nights on that particular leg, so they were prepared to pay a bit extra to make a higher quality product.

[BlobVanDam]

That too, although did MM use a smaller kit on any leg of the ADTOE tour?

[wolven74]

We'll have to wait and see what MM does on the new album. Something tells me MM used every part of his kit, either in recording ADTOE and DT12, or in the catalogue. I don't know if MM COULD use a smaller kit and still play all the songs he'll need to. Especially if the new tour is Evening with shows.

[puppyonacid]

I can tell you that at Wolverhampton here in the UK MM did have his full kit.

I have to say though, and this is totally just my opinion and any drummers here feel free to correct me, but MP's whole 3 bass drum kit thing I felt was rather excessive and not really justifiable. I sort of understood that it had a different feel for him playing on a smaller kit; but frankly I just don't see that there was anything he did on the smaller kit that could not be done on the bigger kit. I always felt that it was just a bit showy.

On the other hand, MM's kit is thoroughly thought out and there isn't a bell or a whistle on there that isn't there for good reason. Four bass drums looks excessive but when you consider that the bass drums on either side of the middle two are different sizes for different tooooones then it makes sense.

Just my tuppence worth.

[wolven74]

:Iagree:

I always thought MP having 3 bass drums was a bit much. Sure it looked cool, and he used everything, but he didn't have to. It was almost a vanity thing. He wanted a big kit, because he'd always had a big kit. The 3rd bass drum was his way of saying he wanted to play on a smaller kit while still being able to play the big metal double bass kit. He didn't need the smaller kit.

I think the way MM thought through designing his kit was brilliant. He's designed it to be ambidextrous and he's using things that he needs for the music, not because he wants it for variety. He uses everything because it's what the music calls for. Personally, I like the design and look of MMs kit more than any of MPs monster kits.

I used to be a drummer, but never played anything other than a 4 piece on a regular basis. Whenever I played anything bigger I had a hard time adapting my playing.

[serrano]

Well MP's kit were actually 2 kits and therefore easy to split, i think to leave out parts out of MM's kit would need a redesign and he would need to adapt to it, not that he couldn't, but at least more effort.

[hefdaddy42]

Yeah, it was a big metal/prog double bass kit fused with a smaller kit.  The smaller side had different bass/snare sizes than the double bass side, which gave a completely different feel.  I totally get why he made it that way, although it was a luxury that few drummers would have had.

[jonnybaxy]

Yeah ^ he used the smaller kit for ballads I believe, Personally I don't understand MM's kit, the toms get larger (god this is so hard to word) in order of right, left, right, left and so on.. like say he has a 6 inch tom forward left, he'll then have an 8 inch tom forward right, then a 10 inch tom diagonal left and a 12 inch tom diagonal right, It's the strangest set up I've seen, because the norm is high to lower toms going from left to right.

[Kotowboy]

It's because Mangini plays outwards rather than to one side. He is 100% ambidextrous and it makes sense for him.

I've always found I can be more creative on a 4 piece kit than I can on some 9 piece monster.

A kit with 8 toms forces you ( me ) to use every tom in a fill and your ( my ) playing just gets boring.

I have way more fun on 4 piece kit than I do on big kits. But that's just me.

[puppyonacid]

There is a lot to be said for the less is more argument.

As a guitar player I've never been one for towering rack units; but you find that guitarists lug gear around where a particular effect may only be used for 30 seconds inside one song. So I can see why it happens. It was refreshing to hear that JP strips right back in the studio to just guitar and amp. Out on the road though I guess you need to be able to recall all those little effects that add texture and depth..........I suppose so anyway.

As far as MM goes, I see him as more than a drummer really. He seems to have a kit that kind of leans towards a more comprehensive percussionists set up rather than just what you would call purely a drum kit.

I remember Jem Godfrey banned the use of Toms for Frosts second album which really seemed to work for Andy Edwards. Some very interesting drum parts on that album. I doubt DT would ever go that far but it would be interesting to hear what they'd come up with if they had to scale back.

Guitar with no effects
Bass with no effects
Vocals dry
Piano and maybe one synth for leads
4 piece kit.

It'd be interesting to see how they'd approach that.

[ZirconBlue]

Yeah ^ he used the smaller kit for ballads I believe, Personally I don't understand MM's kit, the toms get larger (god this is so hard to word) in order of right, left, right, left and so on.. like say he has a 6 inch tom forward left, he'll then have an 8 inch tom forward right, then a 10 inch tom diagonal left and a 12 inch tom diagonal right, It's the strangest set up I've seen, because the norm is high to lower toms going from left to right.

He explains it one of the videos that came out after ADToE was recorded.  The setup allows him to follow other parts, like, say if Jordan had an octave run up a scale, MM can also play an ascending line without having to cross hands. 

[Setlist Scotty]

Yeah - it's not that it can't be done, it's that it's expensive, and the net result doesn't always justify that expense, especially not on shorter legs like the South American and Asian tours. But this tour, they were recording a three hour DVD-and-BluRay over two nights on that particular leg, so they were prepared to pay a bit extra to make a higher quality product.

This right here is the key. When traveling to South America and to Australia, to help keep the costs down and the tour profitable, the guys brought their "B-rigs" which were scaled down. But with them filming the two shows, they opted to take their full rigs instead of having something that was stripped down.
 
 

I always thought MP having 3 bass drums was a bit much. Sure it looked cool, and he used everything, but he didn't have to. It was almost a vanity thing. He wanted a big kit, because he'd always had a big kit. The 3rd bass drum was his way of saying he wanted to play on a smaller kit while still being able to play the big metal double bass kit. He didn't need the smaller kit.

I think the way MM thought through designing his kit was brilliant. He's designed it to be ambidextrous and he's using things that he needs for the music, not because he wants it for variety. He uses everything because it's what the music calls for. Personally, I like the design and look of MMs kit more than any of MPs monster kits.

I used to be a drummer, but never played anything other than a 4 piece on a regular basis. Whenever I played anything bigger I had a hard time adapting my playing.

Let's be honest tho - are you, puppyonacid and some others being biased towards MM? To a degree, I think you are. Did MP's Siamese monster kits have that much more than what MM has on his current kit? I'm not super familiar with each one's setup, but I'd wager not. I think it's down to the way the parts of the kit are laid out; MP's kit had a larger footprint than MM's does. And MM's kit has 4 bass drums, as opposed to the 3 on the Siamese monster kits, yet MM's kit is OK and MP's is excessive - huh? And (in response to puppyonacid) the size of the bass drum on the small side of the Siamese monsters were always different from the larger side, so there's a difference of tone there too.

I don't have a problem with drummers having larger kits. More power to them if they can and if they use everything. Personally, I prefer MM's setup over the Siamese monsters, but I'm fine with the Siamese monster kits as well.

[Daso]

Isn't kit a very, very weird word, though?

[Nekov]

I'm pretty sure that MP said that taking his full kit on every tour was nearly impossible due to the size and costs. The only reason MM had the full set during the South American leg was because they were shooting the DVD.

[bosk1]

Scotty nailed it. 

Also, with Mangini, as someone above alluded to but did not fully flesh out, Mangini developed his setup largely before joining Dream Theater (although he obviously customized it for DT's music once he was in the band).  I remember him talking about how he built this custom kit that he was dying to utilze to its fullest potential, but having no idea what band he could possibly ever do that with prior to the spot upening up in DT.  I think he was so excited to be playing that thing in a band where he could actually use it that there was no way he wasn't going to bring it to every single show, whatever the expense.  He may eventually develop a scalled back B rig, but it doesn't surprise me that to took the A rig to every show last tour cycle, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case for this tour cycle as well.

[goo-goo]

I personally prefer Mangini's Vai kit. The DT kit looks excessive with the 4 bass drums. I personally didn't notice a sound difference at the live show when MM was using the bass drums, but that's just me. Granted, watching Mangini play is a lot of fun.

[Kotowboy]

IMO - if MM got rid of the two extra bass drums and the ROland V Drums above - that thing might not look so huge.

[Voices]

The largest bass drum really sounds awesome live. Even in studio there's difference. Listen closely to Lost Not Forgotten, the first verses with vocals, MM uses it...it is really deeper than the double-bass. Use good headphones to hear it, you'll notice.

[wolven74]

Yeah - it's not that it can't be done, it's that it's expensive, and the net result doesn't always justify that expense, especially not on shorter legs like the South American and Asian tours. But this tour, they were recording a three hour DVD-and-BluRay over two nights on that particular leg, so they were prepared to pay a bit extra to make a higher quality product.

This right here is the key. When traveling to South America and to Australia, to help keep the costs down and the tour profitable, the guys brought their "B-rigs" which were scaled down. But with them filming the two shows, they opted to take their full rigs instead of having something that was stripped down.
 
 

I always thought MP having 3 bass drums was a bit much. Sure it looked cool, and he used everything, but he didn't have to. It was almost a vanity thing. He wanted a big kit, because he'd always had a big kit. The 3rd bass drum was his way of saying he wanted to play on a smaller kit while still being able to play the big metal double bass kit. He didn't need the smaller kit.

I think the way MM thought through designing his kit was brilliant. He's designed it to be ambidextrous and he's using things that he needs for the music, not because he wants it for variety. He uses everything because it's what the music calls for. Personally, I like the design and look of MMs kit more than any of MPs monster kits.

I used to be a drummer, but never played anything other than a 4 piece on a regular basis. Whenever I played anything bigger I had a hard time adapting my playing.

Let's be honest tho - are you, puppyonacid and some others being biased towards MM? To a degree, I think you are. Did MP's Siamese monster kits have that much more than what MM has on his current kit? I'm not super familiar with each one's setup, but I'd wager not. I think it's down to the way the parts of the kit are laid out; MP's kit had a larger footprint than MM's does. And MM's kit has 4 bass drums, as opposed to the 3 on the Siamese monster kits, yet MM's kit is OK and MP's is excessive - huh? And (in response to puppyonacid) the size of the bass drum on the small side of the Siamese monsters were always different from the larger side, so there's a difference of tone there too.

I don't have a problem with drummers having larger kits. More power to them if they can and if they use everything. Personally, I prefer MM's setup over the Siamese monsters, but I'm fine with the Siamese monster kits as well.

I wouldn't say I'm biased towards either kit. I like the siamese monster and the acrylic monster a lot. Although, I do prefer the way MMs rig is laid out. The only differences are it has the equivalent of 3 kits: the two 22" kicks in the center, a 26" kick on the left, and an 18" kick on the right. And he has the Pearl Edrums set up on the left side as well, with the pads on the top of the rack. The way it's laid out gives it a better profile. He's probably got more drums than MP, but it's configured in a tighter package, which is consistent with what he's said about not being what MP was in the band, (meaning, I imagine, the largest stage presence i.e. the showman) He has a kit laid out to let his playing be the showman.

You're right, Bosk. I think he could come up with a B rig if the band asked him to for financial reasons, but I don't think he'll want to.

[MoraWintersoul]

I don't have a problem with drummers having larger kits. More power to them if they can and if they use everything. Personally, I prefer MM's setup over the Siamese monsters, but I'm fine with the Siamese monster kits as well.

Yeah. I can't imagine any drummer at their level putting any stuff on their drumkits that they don't need. And even if they put some stuff on because they think it looks cooler and they may need it just once or twice, why the fuck not?
And the drumkits are all really pretty.

[puppyonacid]

Hey Scotty

I take your point but I have to say no not really.

Absolute truth, when MP first unveiled it I thought it was a bit silly. Essentially a double bass drum kit with a single bass drum kit tacked on the side. I believe it was as much for show as anything else. MP's assertion that it gives him a different vibe.......well I guess only he'd know. I wouldn't argue if he says so but I still have to ask what could be done on the single kick kit, could be done on the other. It was just two kits.

MM's is one kit with one purpose and that is.....everything.

Perhaps there isn't much difference between the two other than the layout. I jsut think MM has put more thought into why and how.

No bias here. I thought mangini would be a better fit for DT when I first heard what he could really do when he was playing for Extreme ;-)

Love MP though.

I'll get my flame retardant coat.

[bosk1]

MP's assertion that it gives him a different vibe.......well I guess only he'd know. I wouldn't argue if he says so but I still have to ask what could be done on the single kick kit, could be done on the other. It was just two kits.

Well, I'm sure you could do anything on a single kick kit.  Peter Wildoer seems to have handled the DT drummer audition just fine with only a single kick drum setup.  But I still completely get having the two kits together.  As already pointed out, the drums on the single kit and different from the drums on the double kit.  They sound different.  It may not be an appreciable difference to some listeners, but others can and do pick out the different sounds.  And it's not really any different than a guitar player switching between different guitars during a gig (as far as songs that do not require different actual tunings, or require an extra low B string, for example).  Is there any reason Adrian Smith needs to switch between his Les Pauls and his strat style guitars during any given Iron Maiden show?  For songs that are in the same tuning, wouldn't just one guitar be enough?  Yeah, he could just have one guitar for each tuning.  But as a musician, even if the differences in sound are very subtle and not noticeable to the average listener, he likes the differences in tone, sustain, and other areas, and likes the different feel, and he feels that certain sounds are more appropriate for certain songs.  So he switches it up.  Same with Portnoy using a larger drum kit with different sounding bass, snare, and tom drums.  It's just that it is less conventional for a drummer to do that.

And, for the record, here is Mike's statement on that issue, just so we can make sure we are being accurate about his reasoning:

MP: I had been using my last setup for the last two albums and tours, and I felt that it was time for a new kit. When I started to put it together I was faced with the decision of going bigger or smaller. I had been using smaller kits on the Transatlantic and Liquid Tension albums. Most of the clinics I had done were also on a smaller kit, and I was really starting to enjoy it. But the more I thought about it, I felt that going smaller with Dream Theater just wouldn't be appropriate. I didn't think the fans would accept seeing me perform on a smaller kit. I can remember when Neil Peart scaled down to a single bass drum. As a fan, I was disappointed. So I came up with the idea of putting together the small kit with the big kit and incorporating it all into one huge kit. It's set up so that I can play certain songs with one kit, and then move over to the other kit for a different sound.

[Kotowboy]

I remember thinking that when Lars Ulrich changed to a smaller kit that it looked better because the old 9 piece just screamed 80s.

[Setlist Scotty]

I remember thinking that when Lars Ulrich changed to a smaller kit that it looked better because the old 9 piece just screamed 80s.

How does a larger kit scream 80s?   

[hefdaddy42]

I remember thinking that when Lars Ulrich changed to a smaller kit that it looked better because the old 9 piece just screamed 80s.

How does a larger kit scream 80s?   

There were a lot of crappy hair metal drummers in the 80s with huge kits.  I remember that, it was almost a staple of hair metal.  No one could have just one bass drum or just two (or even three) toms.

[Kotowboy]

And despite huge kits - the drum rhythms were as simple as you could get.

They were mostly for show.

It was the 80s ffs.

[wolven74]

When DT formed in 85 at least the larger kit got used. Then when they hit in 92-3 the large kit was outta style. It was refreshing to see a band who A. Had long hair B. played music with more than 3 chords in more than drop D tuning and C. Actually used a double bass kit.

[hefdaddy42]

And despite huge kits - the drum rhythms were as simple as you could get.

They were mostly for show.

It was the 80s ffs.

Yep.  Style over substance.

[TAC]

I remember thinking that when Lars Ulrich changed to a smaller kit that it looked better because the old 9 piece just screamed 80s.

How does a larger kit scream 80s?   

Exactly!

Keith Moon? Neal Smith? Carmine Appice?

[Kotowboy]

^ There are exceptions, of course! But the 80s was pretty much all about big drums.