Lyrically speaking...

[Samsara]

The mighty bosker posted this in another thread. It is an interview snippet with JP:

What inspired the fictional lyrics on Systematic Chaos like in Forsaken and ITPOE? I must say they're a nice change for Dream Theater in my opinion.

JP: I agree with you. Like I said, ITPOE, I just stumbled upon that one. Forsaken comes from some old stories, like way-back-from-the-18th-century-old originally. Those types of lyrics are fun to write, you know? The dark subject matter, the "dark master" stuff. It's another way of writing, a fresh one to me.

I used to be a really big DT fan, but nowadays, I'm more of a casual fan with the knowledge of a borderline huge fan. lol. But this was interesting to me. So JP really finds writing lyrics based on fictional stuff fresh, eh?

What do folks think about that? I don't know about you guys, but I actually much prefer DT lyrically when they are writing about real life situations, or write fiction based on factual information. Writing lyrics based on fictional stories and such (such as Forsaken and the like) is just really lame (that is too strong a word...perhaps "repetitive," or "bland"), at least for me.

Thoughts on the lyrics? This should have probably been some sort of poll, but the discussion should be cool.

[Jirpo]

I like both sorts of lyrics Songs like ITPOE and AMOLS are cool, but then so is other stuff like the AA suite.

[wkiml]

I much prefer bands that write about real life experiences, rather than "borrow" from fiction. Its one of the reasons I am so against the majority of "Power Metal" bands....much rather hear about someones angst regardless of if its love/politics/state of mind than about something thats been written by someone else. I would much rather see a band hang it up when the lyrical well runs dry than continue on in mediocrity.

[toro]

BC&SL had personal lyrics, and you probably know how that went...

[bosk1]

Samsara, I think I'm with you in that I generally prefer lyrics based real life situations.  But I also still like the lyrics that aren't, and I like them considerably.  There are so many factors that go into how much I enjoy a particular song, and even just whether I enjoy the lyrics.  Something that is very literal and dramatic may strike a deep chord with me.  For example, to this day, I don't think there has ever been even a single time when I have tried singing along with the lyrics to Disappear and not gotten choked up and literally crying before the end of the song because some of those lyrics so vividly bring back the time in my life where I had to watch my dad die and watch the various members of the family learn to cope with that in different ways.  By the same token, I have a blast listening to a song like Pull Me Under even though I know Hamlet wasn't a real dude.  Just depends.

An easy comparison is movies.  Some of my favorites are dramas that resonate deeply with me.  But I can also be really entertained by a completely frivolous action movie.  I mean, was anyone who grew up in the '80s NOT entertained seeing Conan the Barbarian slice up fools with his broadsword?  Often, some of the best movies are somewhere in between--those that may be based on an entirely fictional scenario, but have some fairly deep, real life moral issues they are presenting beneath the surface (e.g., The Dark Knight).  Yeah, ultimately, there may be something more deeply satisfying about the real-world drama that just isn't there in the frivolous action movie.  But they both have their place and are both enjoyable.

[j]

I mostly agree with bosk.  I guess I prefer non-"fantasy" lyrics, but either style can be good, if well-written.  I'm a huge critic of SC, but its lyrics were never a major problem I had with it.  They weren't great, but some of them were passable I thought.  And compared to BC&SL's amateurish "personal" lyrics, I almost prefer SC's.

-J

[Samsara]

boskorama:

Yes, I PREFER real life lyrics, but I also like fictional lyrics BASED ON factual information. I guess the blander lyrics for me are fictional lyrics based on fictional stories. Specifically, if a song is written with fictional lyrics based on a fictional story (trying to think of a non-DT example but not doing well), while I COULD and at times probably have liked it, it is less interesting and compelling to me.

I'm totally cool with fictional lyrics if those lyrics are based on factual information (doesn't necessarily need to be about real life situations). But I'm less enthusiastic by fictional lyrics based off of fictional works as the inspiration.

And yes, j, real life situational lyrics do need to be presented in a way that is compelling and not amateurish. Totally agree.

[robwebster]

I don't care, as long as it paints a picture and fits the song.

I prefer lyrics like Misunderstood and A Fortune in Lies to lyrics like Metropolis and Voices. Both quite popular I know, so I'm positive I'll end up getting a lot of flak for it, but there are so many disparate images in both songs, totally irrelevant to one another and linked only by the central theme, that they come across as quite muddled.

Songs like AFIL and Misunderstood also manage to be poetic, and create vivid imagery, but they've got more of a cogent mood. They don't feel like exercises in being clever, they sound heartfelt and direct. They aim straight for the heart and FIRE!! -- rather than meandering around these circuits of angels and lakes and Cassandra and diaries which are lovely images (and clever enough!) but they don't invoke any raw passion. Nobody takes a single listen and goes "Ooh, the Angel must be a metaphor for innocence and it's drowning, so that's relevant to the spider because it's adrift in a massive transparent surface of" blah blah blah blah BLAH! There's a meaning in there somewhere, but it's far too deeply buried to move me in any way.

Misunderstood uses irrelevant imagery, too - thieves and beggars have nothing to do with lions and cages, but it invokes a very precise emotion and extracts it without a moment's fuss. Same goes for AFIL, Space-Dye Vest, Wither, Blind Faith, 6:00... countless others. Most of Kevin Moore's stuff, JLB's stuff, and a lot of JP's stuff.

So that's "Rob's Good Lyrics: Rule 1." If you need a crib sheet, it's probably word soup and should be fiddled with.



Secondly! It's gotta be appropriate to the song. Take an album such as Systematic Chaos. The Dark Eternal Night's probably the best example, here. The lyrics are very silly - borderline cartoony. It's about a monster who rises from the dead and wreaks war on humanity. So far, so ridiculous. But the music, too, is ridiculous and overblown. Musically, its themes essentially amount to "being punched in the face repeatedly," so the second you sing about an earnestly held emotion, you've got the lyrics wrong. It'd be like throwing Malvolio from Twelfth Night into Ghostbusters, just doesn't fit. So with a song like that, I'd much rather be running across the length and breadth of my room yelling gruffly about monsters than running across it yelling gruffly about a religious epiphany.

A bit of internal consistency is nice, too. I quite like The Count of Tuscany's lyrics because they're a little bizarre and warped, which totally matches the silly insular fear. Almost feverish.

The most familiar example of this being done badly is probably "DAY AFTER DAY!" Absolutely fine lyrics, but the mood doesn't match the music, making it sound almost parodic.

...So that's "Rob's Good Lyrics: Rule 2." And that's genuinely it. I don't prefer fantasy to reality. I don't prefer literalism to poetry.  I just like good lyrics.

[bosk1]

boskorama:

Yes, I PREFER real life lyrics, but I also like fictional lyrics BASED ON factual information. I guess the blander lyrics for me are fictional lyrics based on fictional stories. Specifically, if a song is written with fictional lyrics based on a fictional story (trying to think of a non-DT example but not doing well), while I COULD and at times probably have liked it, it is less interesting and compelling to me.

I'm totally cool with fictional lyrics if those lyrics are based on factual information (doesn't necessarily need to be about real life situations). But I'm less enthusiastic by fictional lyrics based off of fictional works as the inspiration.

And yes, j, real life situational lyrics do need to be presented in a way that is compelling and not amateurish. Totally agree.

Yeah, I hear you.  It's interesting to try to figure out why I like certain things, but ultimately, I'm not sure I can really answer that even to my own satisfaction.  Sometimes, things just resonate.  Other times, they don't.  Symphony X comes to mind as an example of a band who writes a LOT of fictional lyrics.  Sometimes I connect with them and like them a lot.  Other times, there is almost no connection whatsoever.

[glaurung]

Samsara, you missed the "A fresh one to me" part of that quote. It is something he hadn't done too much of before.

[Samsara]

Samsara, you missed the "A fresh one to me" part of that quote. It is something he hadn't done too much of before.

I didn't miss it. I realize it was fresh to him. That is what I am saying. Fresh to him, but not something I find myself enjoying from him.

[Durg]

I like intelligent lyrics that challenge my mind.  I don't like preachy or political lyircs (unless it agrees with my way of thinking  ).  I don't like lyrics with a bunch of expletives in it; it just rubs me wrong.

One of DTs most revered songs was based on a fictional epic peom (Metropolis I).

[wkiml]

boskorama:

Yes, I PREFER real life lyrics, but I also like fictional lyrics BASED ON factual information. I guess the blander lyrics for me are fictional lyrics based on fictional stories. Specifically, if a song is written with fictional lyrics based on a fictional story (trying to think of a non-DT example but not doing well), while I COULD and at times probably have liked it, it is less interesting and compelling to me.

I'm totally cool with fictional lyrics if those lyrics are based on factual information (doesn't necessarily need to be about real life situations). But I'm less enthusiastic by fictional lyrics based off of fictional works as the inspiration.

And yes, j, real life situational lyrics do need to be presented in a way that is compelling and not amateurish. Totally agree.

Yeah, I hear you.  It's interesting to try to figure out why I like certain things, but ultimately, I'm not sure I can really answer that even to my own satisfaction.  Sometimes, things just resonate.  Other times, they don't.  Symphony X comes to mind as an example of a band who writes a LOT of fictional lyrics.  Sometimes I connect with them and like them a lot.  Other times, there is almost no connection whatsoever.

This is one of the major problems I have with SX.So many people rave about them here but they never really clicked with me. I know for a fact a major letdown for me is the lyrics

[Mebert78]

To me, lyrics can take a very good song and make it timeless or classic.  In fact, it bothers me when people say they just listen to music and don't care about lyrics.  That makes me cringe.  Anyway, I hate fantasy and fiction lyrics.  I love lyrics that are from real-life experiences.  This is probbably why I've really latched onto Redemption so much the past year.  Nick van Dyk can make me look at real-life situations in a way I never had before.  Other the hand, I love Symphony X's music but I haven't been able to connect with it in a higher level because their lyrics are so foreign to me.

With Dream Theater, part of the reason I love Awake so much is because that album is filled with lyrics about personal conflict taken from real-life experiences.  

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

JP has some tremendous potential in writing memorable lyrics (Voices, Lines in the Sand). Some of the tough and confusing retorics make his earlier lyrics a joy to read and listen to.

[ariich]

I like both sorts of lyrics Songs like ITPOE and AMOLS are cool, but then so is other stuff like the AA suite.

Same here. If they work, they work.

[Cool Chris]

This may sound trite, but good lyrics are good, bad lyrics are bad. The subject matter can play a role in that, but it is more a function of how they are handled, and structured within the context of the song. ItPoE lyrics may look silly when read on the page, but can you really imagine someone singing some heartfelt thoughts for a loved one to that music? I can’t, any more than I can imagine singing about Dark Masters and vampires to the music of Surrounded.

I look at it the same way as I do books. Some stories are about Hobbits and Orcs, others are romantic love stories. In the end, what matters is if they are well-written or not, regardless of whether or not the story is something I can relate to, or something that is fantastical.

As to which John/DT do better, that is a different debate. Taken as a whole, I prefer lyrics from the first 3 albums than from the last 3, but there are individual examples of greatness and mediocrity on both sides such that I try not to generalize. I am happy JP is trying to do things to keep it fresh for him even if the result isn’t perfection for the fans.

[Schleppy]

You can tell an original fictional story in a song and still have it click with the audience. Bruce Springsteen's been connecting with people on an insanely deep level for about 40 years using songs about the working class, even though he hasn't been part of that class since he left his parents' home.

Personal experience isn't needed in the slightest to write a story that feels real. That's just being a good storyteller.

[ShadowWalker]

You can tell an original fictional story in a song and still have it click with the audience. Bruce Springsteen's been connecting with people on an insanely deep level for about 40 years using songs about the working class, even though he hasn't been part of that class since he left his parents' home.

Personal experience isn't needed in the slightest to write a story that feels real. That's just being a good storyteller.

But to take the Sprinsteen example further, his lyrics are best when he is drawing from personal experience. Part of the reason I feel the last two albums have been very flat is because I don't see that personal connection he has with the lyrics anymore. Sure, he may still be a good storyteller via lyrics, but they are just stories now and no longer seem to be deep personal reflections. His lyrics have been pretty weak, save a song or two here and there, since The Rising.

[Cool Chris]

Personal experience isn't needed in the slightest to write a story that feels real. That's just being a good storyteller.

That is a great point. Read Stephen King’s Gerald’s Game. I imagine he doesn’t remotely understand what it is like to be a woman handcuffed to a bed in a remote Maine woods cabin while a stray dog nibbles on your recently deceased husband’s corpse as it lies on the floor, all while she reflects on being molested by her dad when she was a kid. Good writers/storytellers tell a good story.

Some musicians write music. Others tell stories. The best do both. Most of them fall in between the two somewhere. DT has always told stories to a degree, it is just that generally we are not finding the stories as interesting as we used to. If that is because the inspiration is from a weaker source (fictional tales), then that is a belief I can't argue against.

[SnakeEyes]

I think it depends on how the lyrics are written.  For example, I didn't hear anyone complaining about the "fictional" nature of Under a Glass Moon and Metropolis back when Images & Words came out.  I mean, think of what Metropolis part I is about (Remus and Romulus).  How much more "fiction" can you get?  But, the way the lyrics were written, you'd almost think it was about something in the "real life" world.

I think what I'm saying is.... DT used to be better at having their 'fantasy' lyrics taken seriously. 

[Perpetual Change]

I actually think Systematic Chaos' lyrics would have worked great if they would have just been a bit more ballsy with it. Forsaken and TDEN were OK, but imagine if ITPOE was like this:


Dark Master, my guide, I will fight for you.
Soul-killer, my light! Now my life is yours.
Lucifer, my guide, I will die for you.
Shine forth from the ice,
My compass, my guide.


Now maybe you guys will think those are worse. Maybe you won't. Maybe they would have isolated 9/10ths of the fanbase.

Eh, I think it still would have been better than Dark Master 12 times in a row.

[Xanthul]

I think Shark Master would have been cooler.

[ShadowWalker]

What do folks think about that? I don't know about you guys, but I actually much prefer DT lyrically when they are writing about real life situations, or write fiction based on factual information. Writing lyrics based on fictional stories and such (such as Forsaken and the like) is just really lame (that is too strong a word...perhaps "repetitive," or "bland"), at least for me.

To answer the question of the thread, good lyrics are good lyrics regardless of the source being a simple work of fiction or ones that can be traced to real-life situations. For example, I have always enjoyed Anthrax's "I Am The Law." On the opposite end of the spectrum, songs from the likes of Springsteen and Billy Joel also are strong because of the real-world experiences that they are drawn from. As it related to DT, the same can easily be said. It really comes down to how creative the story can be told. Much of the creativity in the recent efforts has been lost as the lyrics are offered in a "matter of fact" type presentation - this happenned, this was felt, etc. When approached like this, the listener is more of an observer without really being drawn into the drama of the story being told. A little more ambiguity to let the listener's emotion dictate what can be drawn from the music, regardless of whether the lyrics are a work of fiction or backed by some real-world moment - is needed and would probably go a long way to drawing me back in as a listner. Your own milage may vary...

[Lowdz]

Lyrics have never been that important to me in that I will like music with poor lyrics. I come from an 80s melodic rock/metal background FFS and alot of lyrics were puerile at best. I do like good lyrics and enjoy mulling over them for the meaning etc, they just aren't a deal breaker. Alot of the music I listen to nowadays is made in Scandinavia with bands writing in a second tongue so it's much harder for their lyrics to be great.

Lyrics have certainly never been important to me with DT. Some have been excellent, others not so much. I'm not a fan of MP's I hate you and no-one loves me lyrics (ie from ToT), but generally they are ok. I would prefer less of the DT House of Horror lyrics but I guess on SC they fit the music and that's the most important thing. I mean, what else could you sing to TDEN?

[Ben_Jamin]

PC, those would work nice.

The thing that bothers me is when words repeat in the same verse, which is the problem with The Best of Times.

Lyrics don't put me off a song, the way its presented or the tone of the song does. Which is why its hard for me to enjoy Protest The Hero/Periphery/Bullet For My Valentine, those are tones that sound too whiny, yet the music I enjoy, even the lyrics.

But theirs the obvious lyrics that speak to a certain people, ie "Girls Just Want To Have Fun".

[MykeHavoc]

I much prefer the early lyrics. Much more poetic and interesting. The last few records have been far too ho-hum.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Yeah, it kind of reminds me of the Porcupine Tree lyric history. I think some of the surreal early lyrics are great, while I'm not a big fan of Fear of a Blank Planet's direct OMG KIDS DO DRUGS AND LISTEN TO MP3s! lyrics.

I've come to the conclusion (at least with DT's case) that the word choice is more important than the actual theme. They can talk about anything and still keep it interesting and nice with help of their word choice.

[ReaPsTA]

Re: OP

Within the context of JP's own lyric writing, what he said makes sense.  He spent the last three albums/half a decade writing all stuff that was either pure personal experience of very grounded in actuality.  For him, going full on into fantasy felt, well, fresh.

I actually prefer when JP gets fictional and fantastical.  When he does more real life oriented stuff he tends toward very matter-of-fact description that doesn't catch me and doesn't seem very lyrical.  When he goes into fiction, he seems to focus more on the emotions and images and lets the mind fill in the details, which is a more fun and interesting experience.  ITPOE (in spite of its flaws), Forsaken, and TMOLS are among his best post-FII lyrics.

[orcus116]

Well it's not that hard when you're transferring imagery directly from someone else's mouth 

[rumborak]

It's really a bit of a bummer that there's 5 guys in a band, and none of them seems to consistently write decent lyrics anymore (or never did, or doesn't want to anymore). I used to say of myself that I don't care much about lyrics, but that was before my English got better and I heard songs by Peter Gabriel or Ben Folds.

rumborak