Astroworld Mass Casualties

[ErHaO]

Rest in peace to all the casualties and I hope all the injured people will recover well.

I realise that I live in a different country, but I just don't understand this situation. I am a first-aid at events (voluntary function, Red Cross) and here we always get a briefing and documents with clear descriptions of what to do in what type of calamity. At large events, we are always in contact with the organisation and security and we usually do hourly updates of the status of a crowd/the masses via an app. Over here, at large events there are always patrols by either basic life support or medical stewards. It absolutely boggles my mind how this all unfolded and I just don't understand how an ambulance can go through a crowd while a concert is still going on. This for sure is the result of many fuckups in many layers.

I just saw a clip and that has to be one of the most surreal things I have seen on the internet lately. It is the one where an unconscious (dead...?) kid is being carried over the crowd while Travis is singing some autotuned vocalisations (while being fully aware that is happening, as evident by his actions prior to that moment).

[Stadler]

That camera guy had no idea what was going on. I saw Penn and Teller a few years back, and the highlight of the evening was a trick called Cowboy that played on the very phenomenon we saw there. He's seeing the world through a very narrow lens. When you're limited to a viewfinder anything that goes on outside of it simply doesn't exist. He only knows of a 24 square foot area 200 feet in front of him. The point has also been raised what's he supposed to do if he does see something going on, and that's pretty simple. Point the fucking camera at it so people know that it's actually going on. Even if it's not on the big screen there are people back in a trailer that see what's happening.

FYI, I saw that gag as well. Fascinating, actually, if you stopped to think about it a little bit (it's a similar idea with reality TV).

Taking a 10 year old to a show may or may not be a good idea. Depends on the 10 year old. I'm all in favor of exposing kids to good music, whether it's Leonard Bernstein's Young People's Concerts or taking them to see Maiden tear it up. Know your kid and know the situation. This was clearly not a good place for kids. I want to give people the benefit of the doubt, maybe they didn't know it was going to be so crowded, but I'm honestly not sure what their concept of this show actually was that it might be cool for a child. It was never going to be enjoyable for them. Or, pretty much what Chris said.

Being at the front of a crowd rush like that is sometimes fun and sometimes spooky. I've encounter both, but far more of the former. You have to understand what's going on, and if you're not comfortable with it then retreat. Ain't no shame in that. The difference is a well organized situation, like I imagine Priest would have, or pandemonium in a well designed killing machine, like Friday night. In only one of those scenarios was there a opportunity to move back. That's really the problem here. The situation didn't allow for the crowd to work organically; to right itself. People were trapped. There's no way that doesn't end badly.

Both of these are situational awareness moments.  I took my kid to shows when she was ten, and I operated under the assumption that I was not there to enjoy the show, but to be a security guard.  And I was.  There was no GA or rushes or anything, but if there was we were going elsewhere.  It's like anything else; be honest with yourself and aware of your limitations.   I am a little freaked about the allegations about the nonconsensual drug use if that was ever verified. 

[Ben_Jamin]

What I feel this reveals is the mindset and attitudes of the crowd. This attitude of being young, wild, and free. This mindset of idolizing someone who sings music.

Also, these artists know darn well you can control people with music, easily. All artists understand this concept. If a band or musician yells out to jump up and down and beep, people will do it. (i can't find the song Devin Townsend was starting when he made the audience tap their heads, jump up and down, and yell "Beep". And the people actually did it)

What would be good to know is why were these people at that show. To see Travis Scott? To enjoy time with friends and let loose? To be wild, young, and free which the pandemic prevented these young adults from experiencing?

As horrible as it is. It reveals a lot about society and the mindset and attitudes of these music fans who listen to this style of music.

Metalheads understand concert protocols and will look after each other in these big crowds. Those that attend such festivals like Download, Bloodstock know not to rush the stage just to see their favorite band or artist.

Which is why if Travis Scott was the manager and organizer of the festival, he is the one that should be blamed for not doing due diligence of these safety protocols. Which combined with that attitude I just described, shows it's not going to end well.


Edit: This guy has some interesting thoughts on the subject of relating this to the commercialization of Hip-Hop, it's listening habits by it's different society class aspect, and the idolization...

https://youtu.be/YErzmTLYeyY

[El Barto]

FYI, I saw that gag as well. Fascinating, actually, if you stopped to think about it a little bit (it's a similar idea with reality TV).

Did you see them change the tablecloth? I let out an audible "holy fuck" when they pointed out that it used to be red. 

[LithoJazzoSphere]

FYI, I saw that gag as well. Fascinating, actually, if you stopped to think about it a little bit (it's a similar idea with reality TV).

Did you see them change the tablecloth? I let out an audible "holy fuck" when they pointed out that it used to be red. 

Is there a link on Youtube to this?  The idea reminds me of the video with basketball players passing a ball, you're supposed to count how many passes they make, and when you rewind it you realize you missed a guy in a gorilla costume dancing on by behind them.  When people are laser-focused on a particular task they're oblivious to anything else going on.  You pretty much have to be to stay focused and perform your best. 

[Stadler]

FYI, I saw that gag as well. Fascinating, actually, if you stopped to think about it a little bit (it's a similar idea with reality TV).

Did you see them change the tablecloth? I let out an audible "holy fuck" when they pointed out that it used to be red. 

I don't remember that part; the version I saw was on the "Fool Us" show.  I'll go back and check it out again.

[El Barto]

First things first, all of the crowd shots the media were showing, and hence what I posted here, were of the second stage. The main stage was 600' to the right. The perils of speculating early.

Secondly, the stage that boy designed was spectacular. That was some Division Bell level shit. Under different circumstances (and a different performer) it would have been pretty cool to see. It even took the existing trees in the parking lot into account.

Third, and most regrettably, the main stage was just as ill-conceived, and created many of the same problems. Not to mention the fact that all of the people in the first pics I posted are going to have to up and move 600' over through a narrow corridor. Having both of the stages being visible at the same time is a massive safety feature; it creates a much bigger crowd space. From what we're learning the two stages were a critical component of their crowd management. In this case it was one or the other, though, negating that advantage.

He still has the same cordoned off quadrant for VIPs, but now on the opposite side, and now he's created a couple of other hard barriers creating more pockets and corners. Barriers are good if they'd creating smaller crowd sizes. If they're just creating voids for the same giant audience, they're really bad news. More importantly, crowds really need to be able to adapt and evolve organically. People generally won't force themselves into the narrowest space. Divide them into smaller crowds, give them a lot of space, and let them go where they will. The exact opposite of what happened here.

The one advantage the main stage had was what seems to be a lot more room off to the sides. That should have taken quite a bit of pressure off the crowd, as opposed to that secondary stage and its coffin corner. As morbid as it seems, I'll be interested to see the investigation and a plot of where the injuries and fatalities were occurring. As we all know, large scale engineering failures fascinate me.

Took me a while to figure out how I'd gone wrong. Google maps and some drone footage is what made it all clear. 
Here's the event space. Main stage and audience are in the grass.

https://www.google.com/maps/@29.6868579,-95.417877,408m/data=!3m1!1e3

And the drone footage, which also shows a lot of the barriers: Giant ass link

[lonestar]

A tenth person has passed from their injuries, a nine year old girl. 

[Lonk]

Corey Taylor mentioned this a few days ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFJXPxr_m9g

[Dublagent66]

So things are not looking good for Travis Scott.  Reports are coming out now that Houston's police chief visited Scott prior to show to express concerns about crowd control.  So many people are lawyering up.

Reportedly Scott is paying for the funeral expenses of the victims.

I think the cost is going to go up a lot more than that.

These are choices that are made when greed and ego spin out of control.  I'm trying to have some sliver of compassion for what he must be going through.  But it's a struggle.

Crowd control and safety is the sole responsibility of the venue, not the performer.  The police expressed their concerns to the wrong party.  I don't see how this is the fault of the performer and the fact that he offered to pay funeral expenses goes above and beyond IMHO.  The owner of the venue is totally at fault here for not providing adequate security.

[Grappler]

Crowd control and safety is the sole responsibility of the venue, not the performer.  The police expressed their concerns to the wrong party.  I don't see how this is the fault of the performer and the fact that he offered to pay funeral expenses goes above and beyond IMHO.  The owner of the venue is totally at fault here for not providing adequate security.

Not necessarily.  Yes, the promoter bears the ultimate responsibility.  But the artist on stage with the microphone controls the moment and has the power to stop the show and talk the crowd down.  I have personally seen it happen at an Iron Maiden show - the crowd was crushing so hard up at the front at the stage that Bruce instructed the crowd to take a few steps backward before the band started the next song. 

Consider these comments from Randy Blythe (Lamb of God) regarding crowd safety.

https://www.metalsucks.net/2021/11/14/lamb-of-gods-randy-blythe-preaches-crowd-safety-in-light-of-astroworld-tragedy/

“Tonight my band @lambofgod will play in front of thousands of people at the @welcometorockville festival in Florida. In light of the deaths at the Astroworld Fest in Houston, I’m posting some practical info. I will not retroactively armchair quarterback the whole Astroworld thing- suffice it to say, A LOT of shit went wrong in many ways. However, I BELIEVE THE BUCK ULTIMATELY STOPS WITH THE PERSON HOLDING THE MIC- anyone who knows my story knows that I have very sad, personal experience with not stopping an out of control show- it’s something I will carry with me to my grave. Being a spokesperson for safer shows is both my responsibility as a good man & the fulfillment of a face-to-face promise I made to the family of a dead fan. SO TO THAT END:

“#1) From personal experience, I can say that from the performer’s perspective onstage at a huge festival, it can be VERY DIFFICULT to tell if something has gone wrong in the audience- the noise of the music, the roar of the crowd, the lights in your face, the thousands of people moving all at once- it makes it very hard to ascertain if there is a problem or if people are just having a good time.

“If someone is hurt, screaming “STOP THE SHOW!” at the band onstage doesn’t really work, because unless the entire audience is chanting that, it’s just gonna blend into all the noise.

“Waving your hands frantically in the air doesn’t really help either— it just looks like more movement in a sea of movement.

“What DOES help the audience let a performer know that something has gone wrong in the crowd?

“A SIGNAL. Here are 2 signals I’ve personally seen from the stage that have let me know that someone was injured in the crowd. We then COMPLETELY STOPPED the show until that person could be removed:

“A) arms held in an “x” above your head (picture 1). This is a fairly universal signal that means STOP.

“B) the “time-out” signal (picture 2- fingertips of one hand speared into the palm of the other)

“When I’ve seen several people doing these signals in a crowd together, it looks DIFFERENT than everyone else, & I’ve known something was wrong.

“#2) if someone falls, pick them up. That is how WE do it in OUR COMMUNITY.

“Nuff said.

[Lonk]

Crowd control and safety is the sole responsibility of the venue, not the performer.  The police expressed their concerns to the wrong party.  I don't see how this is the fault of the performer and the fact that he offered to pay funeral expenses goes above and beyond IMHO.  The owner of the venue is totally at fault here for not providing adequate security.

Not necessarily.  Yes, the promoter bears the ultimate responsibility.  But the artist on stage with the microphone controls the moment and has the power to stop the show and talk the crowd down.  I have personally seen it happen at an Iron Maiden show - the crowd was crushing so hard up at the front at the stage that Bruce instructed the crowd to take a few steps backward before the band started the next song.

This, and given that Travis himself has a history with this type of situations, I think it was fair to go straight to him. There is a lot of things that went wrong there, but seeing an ambulance driving through the crowd should have make you stop immediately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3kYjdVwNdc

[Dublagent66]

None of that matters after the fact.  The owner of the venue is ultimately responsible by law for the lives lost.  The crowd should've been controlled before hand.  Expecting the artist to control the crowd is patently ridiculous.  Once a crowd like that starts rushing the stage, there's nothing that can be done to stop it.  The venue has to take steps to make sure the crowd is controlled before anything can happen.

Crowd control and safety is the sole responsibility of the venue, not the performer.  The police expressed their concerns to the wrong party.  I don't see how this is the fault of the performer and the fact that he offered to pay funeral expenses goes above and beyond IMHO.  The owner of the venue is totally at fault here for not providing adequate security.

Yes, the promoter bears the ultimate responsibility.

You got that part right.

[El Barto]

None of that matters after the fact.  The owner of the venue is ultimately responsible by law for the lives lost.  The crowd should've been controlled before hand.  Expecting the artist to control the crowd is patently ridiculous.  Once a crowd like that starts rushing the stage, there's nothing that can be done to stop it.  The venue has to take steps to make sure the crowd is controlled before anything can happen.

By law, I suspect a reasonable argument could be made that Scott was the proximate cause. There are any number of things that could have happened differently to prevent this, and ultimately I'm on your side that it's the promoter that fucked up, but Scott was the last line of defense. He was the one both closest to the incident, and with the most power to stop it once things turned problematic.

[bosk1]

Wow, what a tragedy.  I had no idea what this was about and didn't think to click on the thread until I saw that the title matched something I kept seeing in newsfeeds.  My heart goes out to the loved ones of the deceased.

As far as Travis Scott's role in all of this:  I don't know the guy or what he is about.  It could be that he saw enough to have realized that something was wrong, and that he is a scumbag for not stopping.  But that being said, Grapp's quote from Randy Blythe is dead on.  The biggest crowd I have ever been in front of playing loud music is a few hundred.  And even with crowds that size, I can vouch for the fact that you have no idea what is going on beyond the first few rows.  I have been in front of bigger crowds doing low-key public speaking gigs, and even at those, you typically don't "see" what most of the crowd is up to, and that lacks the deafening music and blinding light show.  The guys in DT know exactly what I look like, and should be able to pick me out in a crowd, especially JP.  But I have been at shows where I am only a few rows back and am waving at John or James, and they just don't even see me.  That's the reality of being onstage.  As I said up front, maybe Travis Scott did know something was going wrong, or maybe saw enough that he should have known.  But I wouldn't be so quick to assume, because there are a lot of variables that weigh against that.  Now I have to admit, an ambulance making its way through the crowd is something extraordinary that is hard to ignore, even from the stage.  But giving him the benefit of the doubt, he may very well have thought something along the lines of, "Oh, man.  Something going down over there.  But looks like the EMTs are doing their job and are on it, so I'm not going to worry about it.  Hope they alright." 

I dunno.  Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying he automatically gets a free pass.  I'm just saying there is a lot going on from a performer's point of view that we have no idea about, and about how extensive a role a lot of those variables could likely have had on him being oblivious enough to have not taken any action.

[ErHaO]

Wow, what a tragedy.  I had no idea what this was about and didn't think to click on the thread until I saw that the title matched something I kept seeing in newsfeeds.  My heart goes out to the loved ones of the deceased.

As far as Travis Scott's role in all of this:  I don't know the guy or what he is about.  It could be that he saw enough to have realized that something was wrong, and that he is a scumbag for not stopping.  But that being said, Grapp's quote from Randy Blythe is dead on.  The biggest crowd I have ever been in front of playing loud music is a few hundred.  And even with crowds that size, I can vouch for the fact that you have no idea what is going on beyond the first few rows.  I have been in front of bigger crowds doing low-key public speaking gigs, and even at those, you typically don't "see" what most of the crowd is up to, and that lacks the deafening music and blinding light show.  The guys in DT know exactly what I look like, and should be able to pick me out in a crowd, especially JP.  But I have been at shows where I am only a few rows back and am waving at John or James, and they just don't even see me.  That's the reality of being onstage.  As I said up front, maybe Travis Scott did know something was going wrong, or maybe saw enough that he should have known.  But I wouldn't be so quick to assume, because there are a lot of variables that weigh against that.  Now I have to admit, an ambulance making its way through the crowd is something extraordinary that is hard to ignore, even from the stage.  But giving him the benefit of the doubt, he may very well have thought something along the lines of, "Oh, man.  Something going down over there.  But looks like the EMTs are doing their job and are on it, so I'm not going to worry about it.  Hope they alright." 

I dunno.  Don't get me wrong--I'm not saying he automatically gets a free pass.  I'm just saying there is a lot going on from a performer's point of view that we have no idea about, and about how extensive a role a lot of those variables could likely have had on him being oblivious enough to have not taken any action.

Here is footage of the concert: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy7rZYwfxnc

Around 33 second into the video he states he sees an ambulance. And then he continues and hypes up the crowd while the ambulance is still in the middle of it all (you can see the position of the ambulance around 1:20). Around 13:03 he stops again, does ask for people to help the unconcious fan. Then continues the concert again. According to accounts, he stopped the concert like this four times in total and kept performing.

I feel the moment you see an ambulance going slowly through a crowd is the moment you stop the show until it is clear what is going on. Or at the very. very least ask people to make a path for said ambulance. And if there has been an ambulance and a moment later you see a lifeless body being carried over a crowd (and react to it), I really feel that you can do better than singing an autotuned lullaby.

[bosk1]

Maybe.  I definitely have a lot more respect for guys like Bruce Dickinson and Joe Elliott, who would do that (and have done so in similar situations).  I think that is, by far, the best approach and shows the minimum level of concern somebody should have.  But, again, I don't know what was going through Travis Scott's mind, and it isn't necessarily that cut and dried to me. 

I like what Barto said, along the lines of the buck stopping with the guy with the mic, because he has the power to stop it.  For that reason, I think he's morally accountable.  But I'm just saying that, beyond that accountability, it's may not be as cut and dried as some are making it out to be, and I understand some of the factors on the other side, that's all. 

[ErHaO]

Maybe.  I definitely have a lot more respect for guys like Bruce Dickinson and Joe Elliott, who would do that (and have done so in similar situations).  I think that is, by far, the best approach and shows the minimum level of concern somebody should have.  But, again, I don't know what was going through Travis Scott's mind, and it isn't necessarily that cut and dried to me. 

I like what Barto said, along the lines of the buck stopping with the guy with the mic, because he has the power to stop it.  For that reason, I think he's morally accountable.  But I'm just saying that, beyond that accountability, it's may not be as cut and dried as some are making it out to be, and I understand some of the factors on the other side, that's all.

I am not saying he is evil or anything, I agree we can't look into his mind. For all we know he panicked and did the only thing he is familiar with doing; performing. But I do utimately think he handled this extremely poorly, regardless of his thought process.

[chknptpie]

None of that matters after the fact.  The owner of the venue is ultimately responsible by law for the lives lost.  The crowd should've been controlled before hand.  Expecting the artist to control the crowd is patently ridiculous.  Once a crowd like that starts rushing the stage, there's nothing that can be done to stop it.  The venue has to take steps to make sure the crowd is controlled before anything can happen.

Crowd control and safety is the sole responsibility of the venue, not the performer.  The police expressed their concerns to the wrong party.  I don't see how this is the fault of the performer and the fact that he offered to pay funeral expenses goes above and beyond IMHO.  The owner of the venue is totally at fault here for not providing adequate security.

Yes, the promoter bears the ultimate responsibility.

You got that part right.

Is there an "owner" of this venue? Wasn't it just fencing and structures set up on open land? It's not like its an established theater venue.

[Anguyen92]

Well, the show took place in NRG Park.  No idea who owns that.  At the end of it all, there was a lot of hands on this thing that could have prevented these tragedies from happening, but it just didn't happen for various reasons.  Now those people have to deal with the backlash.

[Lonk]

https://people.com/music/travis-scott-and-drake-named-in-750-million-lawsuit-brought-by-victims-of-astroworld-festival/

Lawsuit was filed yesterday against Travis...and Drake...and Apple....and Live Nation.

[Anguyen92]

Security and safety was doomed from the start wasn't it?

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/what-happened-Astroworld-deaths-travis-scott-16628214.php?t=3c6a705237

[cramx3]

Crowd control and safety is the sole responsibility of the venue, not the performer.  The police expressed their concerns to the wrong party.  I don't see how this is the fault of the performer and the fact that he offered to pay funeral expenses goes above and beyond IMHO.  The owner of the venue is totally at fault here for not providing adequate security.

Not necessarily.  Yes, the promoter bears the ultimate responsibility.  But the artist on stage with the microphone controls the moment and has the power to stop the show and talk the crowd down.  I have personally seen it happen at an Iron Maiden show - the crowd was crushing so hard up at the front at the stage that Bruce instructed the crowd to take a few steps backward before the band started the next song.

This, and given that Travis himself has a history with this type of situations, I think it was fair to go straight to him. There is a lot of things that went wrong there, but seeing an ambulance driving through the crowd should have make you stop immediately.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3kYjdVwNdc

I just wanted to point out that I've been to a festival where the same type of small ambulance was CONSTANTLY in and out of the crowd and the show never stopped. Granted, it was for heat strokes (HOT summer day outside on the beach so people not properly hydrating were passing out constantly).  It's possible from my experience, that an ambulance in the crowd isn't a reason to stop a show.   Here's a clip where you can see it (funny enough, during the only rap performance of the festival, but I can tell you it was happening all day so it was not due to the band currently on stage) https://youtu.be/Vr4u8umtEIU?t=1251

The part that seems to give more reason to put blame on Travis is that people came out to tell him something was wrong and he kept continuing. 

[ErHaO]

Looking at some of the discussions, I feel like there are huge differences between how ambulances are used.

Over here at any event it is required by law to have one certified person with basic life support per 750 people (capable of first aid and resuscitation). Venues usually have a permanent crew of medical stewards or people with other functions that are certified for basic life support. The ambulance protocols are usually via this basic life support or via the venue crews, meaning ambulances only come if ABCDE measurements indicate this is necessary, meaning an ambulance usually indicates a high chance of something being seriously wrong. We also have a kind "semi-ambulance" for less urgent cases, which is a car with a medical professional and some advanced life support gear. So from my perspective this all just seems unreal, but perhaps that is because our protocols/safety measurements are so different.

That said, there is a difference between a chill crowd during the day where there is enough space/oversight vs a packed show in the dark. The decisions to keep a show going have to be discussed/communicated accordingly. As head of post basic life support on events, there for sure have been situations where I discussed safety with the organisation/security.

[chknptpie]

The Washington Post article gave me some clarification about stages and crowd direction. Painful stuff to watch though.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/interactive/2021/what-happened-astroworld-travis-scott/