James LaBrie almost kicked out during World Turbulence?

[Glass Moonlight]

Hey everybody, I was wondering if anyone had more information about why James was considered for replacement in 2003ish? I've heard it was due to poor singing live, among other things, but never really found out more than just that. I would love if someone can shed some light on this 

[adameastment]

I have a feeling it might have something to do with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_LaBrie#Food_poisoning_incident

It wasn't until after Turbulence he felt better according to Wikipedia

[wolfking]

This has been discussed before, I believe it's in their biography.  Don't know the full story but yes, I think he was told he had to improve his live performances or walk the plank.  I'm sure more experienced posters will confirm this.  I'm sure if you search you will come up with something too.

[ReaPsTA]

Two things not being mentioned:

 - LaBrie was smoking cigars during this time.

 - When the ultimatum was delivered, if I remember correctly, LaBrie took his vocal coaching far more seriously.

LaBrie wasn't doing everything he could to deliver the maximum output out of his voice.  I don't know how he feels about the kick in the ass in retrospect, but it was a good thing for his career.

Consider this from MP/JP/JM/JR's perspective.  If you feel like a guy's performance is problematic enough to threaten kicking him out of the band, you're actually taking a huge risk by not just doing it.  What if he took it the wrong way?  Lots of bad things could have happened.

The other members of DT should be respected for giving him a second chance, and JLB should be respected for taking it the right way and improving.

[wolfking]

Yeah I remember reading he went back and took lessons right away.  Never knew about the smoking thing. 

Cigars are amazing though.

[Madman Shepherd]

Two things not being mentioned:

 - LaBrie was smoking cigars during this time.


Consider this from MP/JP/JM/JR's perspective.  If you feel like a guy's performance is problematic enough to threaten kicking him out of the band, you're actually taking a huge risk by not just doing it.  What if he took it the wrong way?  Lots of bad things could have happened.

The other members of DT should be respected for giving him a second chance, and JLB should be respected for taking it the right way and improving.

1) you sure about the cigars thing?  This is the first I've heard of it.

2) I think it would have been a much bigger risk to kick him out which is why the manager strongly cautioned them against problems it would create or even bringing it up in such a way and also why JP seemed to really take a more diplomatic approach to it, as he stated in Lifting Shadows, he basically said they wanted to ask James if he was into it anymore.  Mike seemed to be the one that was fixated on threatening to kick him out and it should be noted that JR didn't take a position and we can only assume JM didn't have a strong position either since he wasn't quoted on it in the book. 

[Cedar redaC]

Yeah, I've never heard of the cigars thing, but I'm glad that James Labrie and Dream Theater, are where they are now. I saw them live for the first time last summer, and I could not have asked for a more amazing performance

[fadetoblackdude7]

I heard from somewhere that it was contribution reasons too, them saying he doesn't bring enough to the table or something like that.

[LCArenas]

I heard from somewhere that it was contribution reasons too, them saying he doesn't bring enough to the table or something like that.

I thought the reason was more because he was taking credit of the songwriting process in interviews, and since the songs are written by all of the people in DT except him (He only writes his lyrics) this annoyed Portnoy a lot.

[Phantasmatron]

If I remember correctly from Lifting Shadows, I'm pretty sure another part of the ultimatum was that he wasn't really taking care of himself.  I think the band was worried that, in a few years, they'd have some potbellied old-looking dude wheezing around onstage.  Part of the deal involved him starting to work out again.  Now he's dyed his hair, grown his beard, and he looks like a fucking beast again.

[chaotic_ripper]

In Lifting Shadows it mentions all of the above statements about not trying hard enough to fix his voice.  But MP says that the biggest thing for him was that JLB wasn't involved in the writing process, and that in interviews he would discuss the writing process as if he were there.  MP felt he was being dishonest with the fans.  So he needed to shape-up his appearance (he gained weight), shape-up his voice and be present while they were writing the music, even if he didn't have any input.

[Madman Shepherd]

In Lifting Shadows it mentions all of the above statements about not trying hard enough to fix his voice.  But MP says that the biggest thing for him was that JLB wasn't involved in the writing process, and that in interviews he would discuss the writing process as if he were there.  MP felt he was being dishonest with the fans.  So he needed to shape-up his appearance (he gained weight), shape-up his voice and be present while they were writing the music, even if he didn't have any input.

I haven't read any interviews where he claimed to be write the music other than saying, "When we write song..." or something like that.

It's not like he said, "When I wrote that song" or "Well, this is what I was trying to convey in those lyrics (that I had nothing to do with)".  I know this is what Mike said as per Lifting Shadows, I just think it is another case of MP overreacting. 

[The Presence of Frenemies]

In Lifting Shadows it mentions all of the above statements about not trying hard enough to fix his voice.  But MP says that the biggest thing for him was that JLB wasn't involved in the writing process, and that in interviews he would discuss the writing process as if he were there.  MP felt he was being dishonest with the fans.  So he needed to shape-up his appearance (he gained weight), shape-up his voice and be present while they were writing the music, even if he didn't have any input.

I haven't read any interviews where he claimed to be write the music other than saying, "When we write song..." or something like that.

It's not like he said, "When I wrote that song" or "Well, this is what I was trying to convey in those lyrics (that I had nothing to do with)".  I know this is what Mike said as per Lifting Shadows, I just think it is another case of MP overreacting.

I always actually interpreted those sort of statements from James as trying to save face for Mike and the rest of the band. As hardcore fans, we all know James wasn't as involved as the typical "frontman" is. But as the lead vocalist, he still had to play that "frontman" role to a lot of the more casual fans, so he tried to at least sound like he wasn't totally disconnected from everything the band was doing. That way, the odd dynamics of DT wouldn't compromise their image.

[nikatapi]

I haven't read the book so i don't know the details, but watching bootlegs it seemed like James was a bit unintrested and didn't work to improve his vocal performances. So i guess it was good for both the band and James that they tried to make him improve, and James got some habits from this period (like working out, taking lessons etc) which lead to a great improvement to his performances.

Just compare SDOIT to ADTOE James, and try some bootlegs. The difference is really big.

[BlobVanDam]

I haven't read the book so i don't know the details, but watching bootlegs it seemed like James was a bit unintrested and didn't work to improve his vocal performances. So i guess it was good for both the band and James that they tried to make him improve, and James got some habits from this period (like working out, taking lessons etc) which lead to a great improvement to his performances.

Just compare SDOIT to ADTOE James, and try some bootlegs. The difference is really big.

On album, SDOIT is much better than ADTOE vocally. Live though, JLB is definitely better now though.

[nikatapi]

On album, SDOIT is much better than ADTOE vocally. Live though, JLB is definitely better now though.

Yeah i was trying to define periods (album and tour) and i was talking about live performances.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

In Lifting Shadows it mentions all of the above statements about not trying hard enough to fix his voice.  But MP says that the biggest thing for him was that JLB wasn't involved in the writing process, and that in interviews he would discuss the writing process as if he were there.  MP felt he was being dishonest with the fans.  So he needed to shape-up his appearance (he gained weight), shape-up his voice and be present while they were writing the music, even if he didn't have any input.

I haven't read any interviews where he claimed to be write the music other than saying, "When we write song..." or something like that.

It's not like he said, "When I wrote that song" or "Well, this is what I was trying to convey in those lyrics (that I had nothing to do with)".  I know this is what Mike said as per Lifting Shadows, I just think it is another case of MP overreacting.

I always actually interpreted those sort of statements from James as trying to save face for Mike and the rest of the band. As hardcore fans, we all know James wasn't as involved as the typical "frontman" is. But as the lead vocalist, he still had to play that "frontman" role to a lot of the more casual fans, so he tried to at least sound like he wasn't totally disconnected from everything the band was doing. That way, the odd dynamics of DT wouldn't compromise their image.

When James joined the band, they said "so, James...you're just the vocalist, you just sing the songs we have the way we have them". One of his joining "policies", was that James didn't need to be present (or he shouldn't?) during the writing sessions (or that's what interviews have led us to believe). So, how awkward it might have been for James to be on that situation? For real.

[BlobVanDam]

On album, SDOIT is much better than ADTOE vocally. Live though, JLB is definitely better now though.

Yeah i was trying to define periods (album and tour) and i was talking about live performances.

Wasn't quite sure.

[bosk1]

In Lifting Shadows it mentions all of the above statements about not trying hard enough to fix his voice.  But MP says that the biggest thing for him was that JLB wasn't involved in the writing process, and that in interviews he would discuss the writing process as if he were there.  MP felt he was being dishonest with the fans.  So he needed to shape-up his appearance (he gained weight), shape-up his voice and be present while they were writing the music, even if he didn't have any input.

I haven't read any interviews where he claimed to be write the music other than saying, "When we write song..." or something like that.

It's not like he said, "When I wrote that song" or "Well, this is what I was trying to convey in those lyrics (that I had nothing to do with)".  I know this is what Mike said as per Lifting Shadows, I just think it is another case of MP overreacting.

I always actually interpreted those sort of statements from James as trying to save face for Mike and the rest of the band. As hardcore fans, we all know James wasn't as involved as the typical "frontman" is. But as the lead vocalist, he still had to play that "frontman" role to a lot of the more casual fans, so he tried to at least sound like he wasn't totally disconnected from everything the band was doing. That way, the odd dynamics of DT wouldn't compromise their image.

When James joined the band, they said "so, James...you're just the vocalist, you just sing the songs we have the way we have them". One of his joining "policies", was that James didn't need to be present (or he shouldn't?) during the writing sessions (or that's what interviews have led us to believe). So, how awkward it might have been for James to be on that situation? For real.

Well, sort of.  But I think you're overstating it.  As I recall the way it was explained in Lifting Shadows, it wasn't really that the vocalist was "just the vocalist" and had to just "sing what was written for him."  It was more that in this band, the emphasis was on the other musicians.  They said basically the same thing to Charlie, as I recall.  But clearly, by 6 Degrees, either that expectation had changed someone, or they expected James to be more involved from the getgo and he wasn't getting that message, or they had expected him to be involved, but he had sort of drifted out of the process.  Either way, it's easy for us as fans on the outside who weren't there for any of it (or for the years of history between these guys in the years in between I&W and 6 Degrees) to blow it out of proportion.  Bottom line is, it seems to have worked itself out just fine for all parties involved.  James obviously wasn't offended by it, and used it as a motivation to up his game, which seems to be a win for everybody involved.

[The Presence of Frenemies]

I haven't read the book so i don't know the details, but watching bootlegs it seemed like James was a bit unintrested and didn't work to improve his vocal performances. So i guess it was good for both the band and James that they tried to make him improve, and James got some habits from this period (like working out, taking lessons etc) which lead to a great improvement to his performances.

Just compare SDOIT to ADTOE James, and try some bootlegs. The difference is really big.

On album, SDOIT is much better than ADTOE vocally. Live though, JLB is definitely better now though.

I actually think the ADTOE vocals are better executed than the SDOIT ones by a fair bit. Though most of that is because they aren't as challenging (with the exception of the BMUBMD chorus and some other spots).

[ReaPsTA]

2) I think it would have been a much bigger risk to kick him out which is why the manager strongly cautioned them against problems it would create or even bringing it up in such a way and also why JP seemed to really take a more diplomatic approach to it, as he stated in Lifting Shadows, he basically said they wanted to ask James if he was into it anymore.  Mike seemed to be the one that was fixated on threatening to kick him out and it should be noted that JR didn't take a position and we can only assume JM didn't have a strong position either since he wasn't quoted on it in the book.

All true.  This is why JP is a smart guy.

I just wanted to look at it through the lens of what happened.

[Madman Shepherd]

Well, sort of.  But I think you're overstating it.  As I recall the way it was explained in Lifting Shadows, it wasn't really that the vocalist was "just the vocalist" and had to just "sing what was written for him."  It was more that in this band, the emphasis was on the other musicians.  They said basically the same thing to Charlie, as I recall.  But clearly, by 6 Degrees, either that expectation had changed someone, or they expected James to be more involved from the getgo and he wasn't getting that message, or they had expected him to be involved, but he had sort of drifted out of the process.  Either way, it's easy for us as fans on the outside who weren't there for any of it (or for the years of history between these guys in the years in between I&W and 6 Degrees) to blow it out of proportion.  Bottom line is, it seems to have worked itself out just fine for all parties involved.  James obviously wasn't offended by it, and used it as a motivation to up his game, which seems to be a win for everybody involved.

the tricky thing is that I&W was written before they had a vocalist.  I think they were also keen on keeping those dynamics throughout and who would want to be left sitting around if the band for the most part didn't want him involved?  So it seems James spent less and less time with the band, and why wouldn't he?  Plus it saves some money if he gets to stay at home in Canada while they write.

I will say this though, ADTOE seems to have made a great formula.  I still wish they would just credit the whole band but I don't mind that they actually only credited people that were directly involved.  Some songs were only credited to JP and JR and some were the main three but even James got a few credits on songs he didn't write lyrics too. 

From what I understand, they all convened, JP brought in ideas like he normally does and some needed fleshed out more.  James contributed, flew back home for a while, came back to do vocals and realized it wasn't the setting he wanted, so he flew home and did them on his own terms.  JP being the producer and having a strong vision thought that James did a great job but there was a few songs he was very particular about so he flew to Canada to personally oversee a couple. 

I really like that they are trying to do what is best for the musicians and the songs rather than just locking themselves in a rehearsal room and coming up with whatever.