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General => Archive => Dream Theater-related => Topic started by: ariich on December 03, 2009, 02:17:56 PM
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And the final results are in (from this thread: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=7595.0)!
Well well well, some pretty interesting developments, especially up at the top. I didn't think much would change from the last few people, but I guess all the ratings were so close that it was always possible. Most interestingly, TCOT has jumped up to two places to 5th, and Trial of Tears has also jumped above LTL to remain 6th, meaning LTL drops to 7th :omg:
Here it is in all its glory, DTF's 2009 DT song rankings and ratings:
1. Octavarium: 9.623
2. A Change of Seasons: 9.416
3. Metropolis Pt 1: 9.273
4. The Glass Prison: 9.150
5. The Count of Tuscany: 9.082
6. Trial of Tears: 9.077
7. Learning to Live: 9.075
8. In the Name of God: 8.993
9. Voices: 8.917
10. Take the Time: 8.835
11. Lines in the Sand: 8.781
12. Home: 8.773
13. Fatal Tragedy: 8.583
14. Blind Faith: 8.541
15. A Nightmare to Remember: 8.472
16. Finally Free: 8.444
17. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 8.417
18. Under a Glass Moon: 8.363
19. Overture 1928: 8.321
20. In The Presence of Enemies: 8.239
21. The Spirit Carries On: 8.222
22. Disappear: 8.222
23. The Mirror: 8.219
24. The Root of All Evil: 8.201
25. Hell's Kitchen: 8.185
26. Wait for Sleep: 8.130
27. Strange déjà vu: 8.097
28. Pull Me Under: 8.095
29. The Shattered Fortress: 8.095
30. Erotomania: 8.089
31. Raise the Knife: 8.027
32. Surrounded: 8.020
33. Scarred: 8.006
34. Stream of Consciousness: 7.881
35. Lifting Shadows Off a Dream: 7.805
36. Space Dye-Vest: 7.798
37. One Last Time: 7.732
38. Misunderstood: 7.705
39. 6:00: 7.636
40. The Great Debate: 7.618
41. The Best of Times: 7.602
42. Wither: 7.595
43. Eve: 7.595
44. Speak to Me: 7.581
45. These Walls: 7.576
46. Lie: 7.568
47. Another Day: 7.561
48. Caught in a Web: 7.520
49. Panic Attack: 7.507
50. Innocence Faded: 7.493
51. Vacant: 7.493
52. The Dance of Eternity: 7.472
53. Beyond This Life: 7.458
54. To Live Forever: 7.432
55. This Dying Soul: 7.388
56. Honor Thy Father: 7.354
57. The Silent Man: 7.301
58. Another Won: 7.260
59. Sacrificed Sons: 7.243
60. The Ministry of Lost Souls: 7.191
61. Peruvian Skies: 7.185
62. Ytse Jam: 7.181
63. New Millenium: 7.157
64. As I Am: 7.097
65. Don't Look Past Me: 7.076
66. Hollow Years: 7.063
67. A Fortune in Lies: 6.984
68. Through Her Eyes: 6.916
69. Endless Sacrifice: 6.902
70. A Rite of Passage: 6.897
71. Cover My Eyes: 6.890
72. Only a Matter of Time: 6.887
73. Repentance: 6.869
74. The Way It Used to Be: 6.810
75. The Killing Hand: 6.746
76. The Dark Eternal Night: 6.726
77. Forsaken: 6.705
78. Afterlife: 6.674
79. Constant Motion: 6.589
80. Anna Lee: 6.485
81. Never Enough: 6.450
82. Where Are You Now?: 6.421
83. Take Away My Pain: 6.210
84. Just Let Me Breathe: 6.130
85. I Walk Beside You: 6.118
86. Through My Words: 6.052
87. The Answer Lies Within: 5.965
88. Light Fuse and Get Away: 5.729
89. Prophets of War: 5.719
90. Regression: 5.669
91. Your Majesty: 5.565
92. Status Seeker: 5.443
93. The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun: 5.416
94. Two Far: 5.309
95. A Vision: 5.190
96. March of the Tyrant: 5.175
97. Burning My Soul: 5.114
98. Vital Star: 4.85
99. You Not Me: 4.115
Album averages:
1. Images and Words: 8.419
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 8.275
3. Black Clouds & Silver Linings: 7.957
4. Awake: 7.850
5. Scenes From a Memory: 7.645
6. Train of Thought: 7.587
7. Octavarium: 7.335
8. Falling Into Infinity: 6.864
9. Systematic Chaos: 6.863
10. When Dream and Day Unite: 6.382
Total number of voters: 73
Top 20 most controversial songs (by standard deviation):
1. The Dark Eternal Night: 2.512
2. Scarred: 2.465
3. Regression: 2.266
4. Space Dye-Vest: 2.127
5. Burning My Soul: 2.123
6. Light Fuse and Get Away: 2.098
7. The Ministry of Lost Souls: 2.016
8. The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun: 1.979
9. The Dance of Eternity: 1.966
10. Prophets of War: 1.963
11. A Vision: 1.939
12. The Great Debate: 1.929
13. The Killing Hand: 1.925
14. Only a Matter of Time: 1.917
15. Sacrificed Sons: 1.911
16. The Best of Times: 1.896
17. Anna Lee: 1.890
18. Eve: 1.866
19. Endless Sacrifice: 1.866
20. You Not Me: 1.857
10 least controversial songs:
90. Home: 1.083
91. Take the Time: 1.037
92. Strange déjà vu: 1.029
93. Trial of Tears: 1.026
94. The Glass Prison: 1.002
95. The Mirror: 0.971
96. Fatal Tragedy: 0.956
97. Octavarium: 0.915
98. Metropolis Pt 1: 0.889
99. A Change of Seasons: 0.855
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1. Octavarium: 9.623
2. A Change of Seasons: 9.416
3. Metropolis Pt 1: 9.273
4. The Glass Prison: 9.150
5. The Count of Tuscany: 9.082
6. Trial of Tears: 9.077
7. Learning to Live: 9.075
8. In the Name of God: 8.993
9. Voices: 8.917
10. Take the Time: 8.835
11. Lines in the Sand: 8.781
12. Home: 8.773
13. Fatal Tragedy: 8.583
14. Blind Faith: 8.541
15. A Nightmare to Remember: 8.472
16. Finally Free: 8.444
17. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 8.417
18. Under a Glass Moon: 8.363
19. Overture 1928: 8.321
20. In The Presence of Enemies: 8.239
21. The Spirit Carries On: 8.222
22. Disappear: 8.222
23. The Mirror: 8.219
24. The Root of All Evil: 8.201
25. Hell's Kitchen: 8.185
26. Wait for Sleep: 8.130
27. Strange déjà vu: 8.097
28. Pull Me Under: 8.095
29. The Shattered Fortress: 8.095
30. Erotomania: 8.089
31. Raise the Knife: 8.027
32. Surrounded: 8.020
33. Scarred: 8.006
34. Stream of Consciousness: 7.881
35. Lifting Shadows Off a Dream: 7.805
36. Space Dye-Vest: 7.798
37. One Last Time: 7.732
38. Misunderstood: 7.705
39. 6:00: 7.636
40. The Great Debate: 7.618
41. The Best of Times: 7.602
42. Wither: 7.595
43. Eve: 7.595
44. Speak to Me: 7.581
45. These Walls: 7.576
46. Lie: 7.568
47. Another Day: 7.561
48. Caught in a Web: 7.520
49. Panic Attack: 7.507
50. Innocence Faded: 7.493
51. Vacant: 7.493
52. The Dance of Eternity: 7.472
53. Beyond This Life: 7.458
54. To Live Forever: 7.432
55. This Dying Soul: 7.388
56. Honor Thy Father: 7.354
57. The Silent Man: 7.301
58. Another Won: 7.260
59. Sacrificed Sons: 7.243
60. The Ministry of Lost Souls: 7.191
61. Peruvian Skies: 7.185
62. Ytse Jam: 7.181
63. New Millenium: 7.157
64. As I Am: 7.097
65. Don't Look Past Me: 7.076
66. Hollow Years: 7.063
67. A Fortune in Lies: 6.984
68. Through Her Eyes: 6.916
69. Endless Sacrifice: 6.902
70. A Rite of Passage: 6.897
71. Cover My Eyes: 6.890
72. Only a Matter of Time: 6.887
73. Repentance: 6.869
74. The Way It Used to Be: 6.810
75. The Killing Hand: 6.746
76. The Dark Eternal Night: 6.726
77. Forsaken: 6.705
78. Afterlife: 6.674
79. Constant Motion: 6.589
80. Anna Lee: 6.485
81. Never Enough: 6.450
82. Where Are You Now?: 6.421
83. Take Away My Pain: 6.210
84. Just Let Me Breathe: 6.130
85. I Walk Beside You: 6.118
86. Through My Words: 6.052
87. The Answer Lies Within: 5.965
88. Light Fuse and Get Away: 5.729
89. Prophets of War: 5.719
90. Regression: 5.669
91. Your Majesty: 5.565
92. Status Seeker: 5.443
93. The Ones Who Help to Set the Sun: 5.416
94. Two Far: 5.309
95. A Vision: 5.190
96. March of the Tyrant: 5.175
97. Burning My Soul: 5.114
98. Vital Star: 4.85
99. You Not Me: 4.115
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Most of Systematic Chaos is below 7. No surprises there.
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The Octavarium and Count of Tuscany numbers stun me.
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Most of Systematic Chaos is below 7. No surprises there.
Agreed.
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I'm really surprised that Trial Of Tears is above Learning To Live. I mean, I disagree (though Trial Of Tears is in my top 5), but it's great to see such an appreciation for this song.
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10. Take the Time: 8.835
12. Home: 8.773
:lol
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I decided I won't comment on the above.
Overall, excellent work ariich.
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The Octavarium and Count of Tuscany numbers stun me.
Yeah same here, I'm not a fan of Count of Tuscany as of late.
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I decided I won't comment on the above.
It's OK, you can laugh. It's a joke.
Um, you can laugh, right?
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And the Oct-A-COS battle continues. :lol
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And the Oct-A-COS battle continues. :lol
A bit surprised to see Octavarium higher, to be honest.
I decided I won't comment on the above.
It's OK, you can laugh. It's a joke.
Um, you can laugh, right?
Not in the mood today.
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10. Take the Time: 8.835
12. Home: 8.773
:lol
I just don't understand.
Also, I hate everyone who voted down Scarred. Suckas.
Also, I was shocked to see how low Burnin' MAH Soul was. I adore that song. Yes it's clichéd, but it's metal and awesome.
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Also, I was shocked to see how low Burnin' MAH Soul was. I adore that song. Yes it's clichéd, but it's metal and awesome.
Not surprised at all to be honest, but agreed it's far better than that.
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If anybody's crazy enough, it would be neat to see some hardcore statistics done with this data.
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Also, the lack of love for "Light Fuse and Get Away" is seriously disappointing.
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Burning My Soul is awful.
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This was a huge victory for 8va as the quintessential DT song, and BC&SL as an album.
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I think it's pretty hard to argue with that Top 10, regardless of the order.
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Burning My Soul is awful.
What's wrong with it, other than the weird robotic "my soul"?...
edit: nvm
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A) If you think "Burning My Soul" is good, you need to listen to some better metal.
B) "Take the Time" is most certainly a top ten DT song.
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We can discuss how good it actually is, but it certainly isn't so bad to deserve the third from the end spot.
Yes, it is - in a I&W song rating.
Ok, I'll do it...
10. Take the Time: 8.835
17. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 8.417
You actually believe this is right? ::)
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We can discuss how good it actually is, but it certainly isn't so bad to deserve the third from the end spot.
Yes, it is - in a I&W song rating.
Ok, I'll do it...
10. Take the Time: 8.835
17. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 8.417
You actually believe this is right? ::)
Longer isn't always better.
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Six Degrees as an entire piece of music I've always felt was mediocre at best. Nothing in the entire suite has ever jumped out at me as anything more than pretty good, in individual parts or as a whole.
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1. Octavarium: 9.623
2. A Change of Seasons: 9.416
3. Metropolis Pt 1: 9.273
4. The Glass Prison: 9.150
5. The Count of Tuscany: 9.082
6. Trial of Tears: 9.077
7. Learning to Live: 9.075
8. In the Name of God: 8.993
9. Voices: 8.917
10. Take the Time: 8.835
These ones make me especially happy. Really surprised to see TGP just so high up, although personally it's my favourite, so that's cool.
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Longer isn't always better.
:neverusethis:
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[system overheat]
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I was looking at this and didn't really flip over anything until...
75. The Killing Hand
ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?
My god that's failtastic.
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sweet octavarium took the top seat! :laugh:
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Also, the lack of love for "Light Fuse and Get Away" is seriously disappointing.
Definitely. The instrumental section is so damn groovy.
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I was looking at this and didn't really flip over anything until...
75. The Killing Hand
ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME?
My god that's failtastic.
No, I really, really dislike A Fortune In Lies...
along with The Killing HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAANNNNNDDDD
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Yeah TKH is a very mediocre song. WDADU has some really good stuff, but that's not part of it.
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TKH has that killer intro riff, but the rest might as well be SS.
Unless it's LatM, then it's JLB-tastic (even though it still is essentially SS).
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You mean Sacrificed Sons? That song's amazing!
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Also, the lack of love for "Light Fuse and Get Away" is seriously disappointing.
I gotta agree. It's probably my 2nd favorite on their debut.
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The studio version of TKH is not very good, the Marquee version is decent though. And it's not just because it's JLB. It has some quite different melodies, which are a lot better than the studio version.
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I suppose I can understand why someone else could like Trial of Tears but it would certainly not make my top 10 or even 15.
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Yeah TKH is a very mediocre song.
Whaaat? Maybe it's because the Marquee performance is so explosive, but I just don't believe you.
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I think it's pretty hard to argue with that Top 10, regardless of the order.
Yeah. Mines a bit different, but it has many of the same factors (Voices, ToT, LtL, 8V/ACOS). I'm surprised how low As I Am was. I thought everyone sort of liked it, just not in the same regard as songs in the top 10. The Best of Times being so low is a travesty.
Major props to Ariich for taking the time to prove that TTT is indeed more liked than Home. ;D
EDIT: Oh man I didn't even see how low TKH was. The Live at the Marquee version is so awesome.
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I think it's pretty hard to argue with that Top 10, regardless of the order.
The Count of Tuscany and In The Name Of God are not Top 10 songs.
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I think it's pretty hard to argue with that Top 10, regardless of the order.
The Count of Tuscany and In The Name Of God are not Top 10 songs.
DTF disagrees.
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:sadpanda:
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The Octavarium and Count of Tuscany numbers stun me.
Agreed. WTF
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10. Take the Time: 8.835
17. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 8.417
You actually believe this is right? ::)
Yes, any day.
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I'm actually really surprised how taken everyone is (me included) with TCoT, but more surprisingly is how half a year later it's STAYED that way. How long can it be before we unwrittenly induct it as an all time DT great? Or is it already there? :o [/babbling]
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I'm actually really surprised how taken everyone is (me included) with TCoT, but more surprisingly is how half a year later it's STAYED that way. How long can it be before we unwrittenly induct it as an all time DT great? Or is it already there? :o [/babbling]
I think it's probably there. I mean, for me, it isn't really a Top 10 song, but it isn't too far from there, either.
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Burning My Soul is awful.
It's bottom 5 for me too, but I will say that it kicks some arse on Live at Bucharest (and it has Hell's Kitchen in the middle).
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I personally don't think it's done anything to merit being called a DT great aside from being the least mediocre song on Black Clouds along with The Best of Times. To use the analogy that I did with ANTR in P/S, you could be a 6 in a crowd of 3's and 4's and while you'd still be the best one there you're still a 6, which is a long ways off from being a 10.
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Except that TCOT actually is that good. Thought it's a 9.5 for me purely because of some of the more outrageous lyrical moments. :lol
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I personally don't think it's done anything to merit being called a DT great aside from being the least mediocre song on Black Clouds along with The Best of Times. To use the analogy that I did with ANTR in P/S, you could be a 6 in a crowd of 3's and 4's and while you'd still be the best one there you're still a 6, which is a long ways off from being a 10.
For me, TCoT is a 9 in a sea of 7s,
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Aside from TCoT's high rating I'm more surprised at the rating of Scarred. In another topic it seems that people either love it or hate it. Man my list would be completely different than most but I'm too lazy to post mine and of course since its closed.
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My personal top 4 is the collective's top 4... I feel so close.
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Burning My Soul is awful.
It's bottom 5 for me too, but I will say that it kicks some arse on Live at Bucharest (and it has Hell's Kitchen in the middle).
That's the '96 version, the version DT intended to put on FII before Kevin Shirley suggested making the mellow instrumental part a song of its own.
And regarding TCOT... It's my third favourite DT song right now, and chances are that it's going to stay that way (probably take one or two positions).
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I still prefer ANTR and TSF over The Count, they're much more focused and original imo. TCOT feels several minutes too long for me, which is a very rare case for me, as I'm very tolerant for long songs.
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Really? That's sort of the case with me for ANTR, it just seems to go on for too long with no real interesting variation except the 'beautiful agony' section. But then I suppose I'm not really into the metal side of DT quite as much, despite the fact I think Glass Prison is a top fiver.
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Longer isn't always better.
That's what she said :neverusethis:
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1. Octavarium: 9.623
2. A Change of Seasons: 9.416
3. Metropolis Pt 1: 9.273
4. The Glass Prison: 9.150
8. In the Name of God: 8.993
9. Voices: 8.917
12. Home: 8.773
13. Fatal Tragedy: 8.583
15. A Nightmare to Remember: 8.472
16. Finally Free: 8.444
17. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 8.417
18. Under a Glass Moon: 8.363
19. Overture 1928: 8.321
20. In The Presence of Enemies: 8.239
21. The Spirit Carries On: 8.222
23. The Mirror: 8.219
24. The Root of All Evil: 8.201
25. Hell's Kitchen: 8.185
29. The Shattered Fortress: 8.095
Those made me happy.
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Good list
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I can really understand ITPOE pt 1 being that high, but not the entire song. The entire song is about a 5 for me, versus a 9 for pt 1.
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I can really understand ITPOE pt 1 being that high, but not the entire song. The entire song is about a 5 for me, versus a 9 for pt 1.
Really? I always thought Pt 2 was miles ahead of pt 2. The whole chanting section is one of the most epic moments in DT history.
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The only song I really expected to be more near the Top 10 was SDOIT. But the Top 10 are hard to argue with. Great work, very interesting results. Especially with all the hate that Space Dye Vest gets.
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I can really understand ITPOE pt 1 being that high, but not the entire song. The entire song is about a 5 for me, versus a 9 for pt 1.
Really? I always thought Pt 2 was miles ahead of pt 2. The whole chanting section is one of the most epic moments in DT history.
a part beside itself
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I can really understand ITPOE pt 1 being that high, but not the entire song. The entire song is about a 5 for me, versus a 9 for pt 1.
Really? I always thought Pt 2 was miles ahead of pt 2. The whole chanting section is one of the most epic moments in DT history.
(https://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4695/tard.gif)
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I can really understand ITPOE pt 1 being that high, but not the entire song. The entire song is about a 5 for me, versus a 9 for pt 1.
Well most DT fans suck at evaluating songs as a whole. As long as it's lengthy and at least 5 seconds of it is "epic" then it's a great song in their books.
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I personally don't think it's done anything to merit being called a DT great aside from being the least mediocre song on Black Clouds along with The Best of Times. To use the analogy that I did with ANTR in P/S, you could be a 6 in a crowd of 3's and 4's and while you'd still be the best one there you're still a 6, which is a long ways off from being a 10.
But its not being judged relative to the rest on BCASL. It's being rated on its own merits here, and DTF obviously considers it a top song.
Personally I wouldn't put it top 10. Maybe top 20 though. So hard to choose with so many great songs.
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Fair enough though I'm curious to see how The Count fairs after a year or so. I'm guessing not much will change but once Black Clouds ages a bit we'll know where it really stands.
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I think it's had enough time to age really.
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Maybe but I still think people are in the "it's not Systematic Chaos!" mode. I'm definitely not the best judge since newer DT isn't really my bag though. They've had some great moments but not in the form of entire songs.
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I do expect it will drop slightly, for the reasons you stated, but I also do think you're underestimating the song. I know my opinion of it most likely won't change (I listened to the album to death when I first got it, so my opinions are fairly firmly entrenched by now). I think you'll see it continue to rate at least top 20 in the future.
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Maybe but I still think people are in the "it's not Systematic Chaos!" mode. I'm definitely not the best judge since newer DT isn't really my bag though. They've had some great moments but not in the form of entire songs.
Personally, I'm definitely well out of the being giddy about BC&SL. I'm past the point where it's the best album ever or the best album of the year, and at the point while none of the songs are top 5's for me, it's become a DT album that I know I can throw on whenever and enjoy. I don't see it going up or down on my list. It's just a go-to album.
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Must have been bored because I tabulated each record's average and here they are (b-sides and ACOS not included for obvious reasons).
WDADU--78.375
SC--67.714
FII--61.364
8VM--53.875
TOT--48.143
SFAM--41.167
AWAKE--36.909
BC&SL--33.667
SDOIT--22.500
I&W--21.375
Any comments/suprises/thoughts? The one thing that would change the SDOIT rating is if they split up the songs on the second disc rather than counting it as one.
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Must have been bored because I tabulated each record's average and here they are (b-sides and ACOS not included for obvious reasons).
WDADU--78.375
SC--67.714
FII--61.364
8VM--53.875
TOT--48.143
SFAM--41.167
AWAKE--36.909
BC&SL--33.667
SDOIT--22.500
I&W--21.375
Any comments/suprises/thoughts? The one thing that would change the SDOIT rating is if they split up the songs on the second disc rather than counting it as one.
Interesting that SFAM is so low, this really shows that the sum of it's parts is better than.. it's parts? (Or however the metaphor goes)
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Sorry, but why did you calculate the average song position rather than the average song score?
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I'm going to do it using the scores on my weighted averaged spreadsheet. For those who don't remember it takes into account song length as part of the whole album when determining the final score.
An example of this would be that Octavarium would carry about 3 times the weight of say, These Walls when determining the final score of the album.
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Guys, I'll do it myself, it'll take 5 seconds as I have all the data here already :lol
EDIT: I don't think we need to bother with weighted averages really.
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Album averages:
1. Images and Words: 8.419
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 8.275
3. Black Clouds & Silver Linings: 7.957
4. Awake: 7.850
5. Scenes From a Memory: 7.645
6. Train of Thought: 7.587
7. Octavarium: 7.335
8. Falling Into Infinity: 6.864
9. Systematic Chaos: 6.863
10. When Dream and Day Unite: 6.382
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(https://www.nickeh.com/images/DTFRank.jpg)
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Using Nick's weighted method, Scenes and Octavarium do slightly better, but the general trends are pretty much the same:
1. Images and Words: 8.585
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 8.338
3. Black Clouds & Silver Linings: 8.170
4. Scenes From a Memory: 7.988
5. Octavarium: 7.952
6. Awake: 7.940
7. Train of Thought: 7.685
8. Falling Into Infinity: 7.250
9. Systematic Chaos: 7.236
10. When Dream and Day Unite: 6.366
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Weighted averages are very important, Regression shouldn't get the same say in Scenes From a Memory as Home or Finally Free, it makes absolutely no sense.
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Also, you can all see from my linear regression line that overall DT has been improving slightly over their career.
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I think part of the reason why SDOIT and BCASL rank so highly (apart from being great albums) is the low number of songs. With 6 songs respectively and a great consistency, a high ranking is far more likely than with SFAM, where a low-ranked 2-minute interlude counts as much as a good 12-minute song.
Edit: Dammit, ninja'd by Nick. >:(
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Also, you can all see from my linear regression line that overall DT has been improving slightly over their career.
Except that there is no trend. Your regression line is skewed by WDADU.
I think part of the reason why SDOIT and BCASL rank so highly (apart from being great albums) is the low number of songs. With 6 songs respectively and a great consistency, a high ranking is far more likely than with SFAM, where a low-ranked 2-minute interlude counts as much as a good 12-minute song.
That's somewhat the case, although as you can see it hasn't made that big a difference.
However, individual songs will have skews as well. For example, some people rate ANTR low because of a 30 second section of the song. If we want to go overly detailed, we should be doing it on a note by note basis :P
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However, individual songs will have skews as well. For example, some people rate ANTR low because of a 30 second section of the song. If we want to go overly detailed, we should be doing it on a note by note basis :P
And some people rate ANTR high despite a 10 minute section of the song.
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However, individual songs will have skews as well. For example, some people rate ANTR low because of a 30 second section of the song. If we want to go overly detailed, we should be doing it on a note by note basis :P
And some people rate ANTR high despite a 10 minute section of the song.
:lol I suppose.
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By the way, I've split the results stuff and onwards into a new thread, and updated the first post with some extra stats including number of voters (73) and most and least controversial songs.
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I don't want to cause chaos, but if we know how to add our value to the mean, could we add our vote and fix the ratings?
EDIT: Never mind, that would be too complicated.
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It would have been simple enough if all 73 people had voted for every song, but as it is not everyone did, so it would be a little complicated, as you say.
Plus, the deadline has passed so these are final results for 2009. I might make it an annual thing though, to see how tastes change, and to include new songs when new things get released.
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I don't want to cause chaos, but if we know how to add our value to the mean, could we add our vote and fix the ratings?
EDIT: Never mind, that would be too complicated.
And like a completely shitty thing to do.
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If you remove WDaDU from the linear regression, does it change it much at all?
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I think part of the reason why SDOIT and BCASL rank so highly (apart from being great albums) is the low number of songs. With 6 songs respectively and a great consistency, a high ranking is far more likely than with SFAM, where a low-ranked 2-minute interlude counts as much as a good 12-minute song.
Edit: Dammit, ninja'd by Nick. >:(
If they're weighted averages though, that shouldn't make a huge difference. If a 10+ minute song on an album with only 6 or 7 songs got a low score, that would really dent the score, unlike a 1-2 minute song getting a low score among 12.
I think a big reason is just that this is rating only based on average score of individual songs, rather than the album as a whole, although I'm still surprised that SFAM is so high up by this method.
It's also very interesting that the modern DT albums rate so highly, and Awake is in 6th :) :hat
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wow, I'm thrilled with the result!
Didn't expect TCOT & BC&SL to rank so high, but it's a good thing I guess,
gotta show the results to my pals who bash up BC&SL! :))
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It's also very interesting that the modern DT albums rate so highly, and Awake is in 6th :) :hat
When people grow up and start listening to real music they'll understand the mistake they made by not listing the songs on Awake higher.
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It's also very interesting that the modern DT albums rate so highly, and Awake is in 6th :) :hat
When people grow up and start listening to real music they'll understand the mistake they made by not listing the songs on Awake higher.
:lol So you're right, and everyone else is wrong? You're hilarious.
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(https://www.nickeh.com/images/DTFRank.jpg)
It's things like this that make me realize just how nerdy DTF is. :lol
I love you guys. :heart
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It's also very interesting that the modern DT albums rate so highly, and Awake is in 6th :) :hat
When people grow up and start listening to real music they'll understand the mistake they made by not listing the songs on Awake higher.
This is probably the stupidest thing I've ever read on the board. Which is why I'm glad your joking.
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Great job, man. Interesting results, to say the least. :)
Aside from TCoT's high rating I'm more surprised at the rating of Scarred. In another topic it seems that people either love it or hate it.
Honestly, and this is just my opinion, but there seem to be some who do not like it very much, and given how much it is talked about in glowing terms, I think some probably gave it a lower score than they probably would have normally, simply to jack its overall score down, resulting in its surprisingly low rating. Okay, in the 30s isn't low, per se, but in my time in the DT community (which is approaching 10 years), "Scarred" has always been pretty popular with the online fan base. Either the song has worn off of some people or the newer, younger fans simply aren't getting it like many of the old-time fans do, most of whom seem to love it. Just my two cents. It is still my favorite DT song. :biggrin:
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It's also very interesting that the modern DT albums rate so highly, and Awake is in 6th :) :hat
When people grow up and start listening to real music they'll understand the mistake they made by not listing the songs on Awake higher.
This is probably the stupidest thing I've ever read on the board. Which is why I'm glad your joking.
If that's the stupidest thing you've read then you've missed a lot of other shit.
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Yeah, I bet I could find 4055 other posts equally as stupid :neverusethis:
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Pffft try it...without having to go back in time through the board crash.
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Oh yeah, I forgot about that. :lolpalm: I suppose it's 1852 then. Better? :biggrin:
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Way to go NERD
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Who, me? :blob:
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If that's the stupidest thing you've read then you've missed a lot of other shit.
I could, but just like your argument for the Count only being "good" because it's surrounded by bad songs- the stupidity seems even worse than it really is because it's surrounded by know-it-all pretentiousness.
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I did admit that newer DT isn't my thing so being pretentious is a little much.
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Awake is in 6th :) :hat
Actually it's 4th, and rightly so. It's only 6th by Nick's silly weighted method. :P
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Well I think the weighted method is more fair. A one minute song like Through My Words shouldn't affect the overall score as much as a 12+ minute song like Home or Finally Free. Especially when people tend to give the really short songs really bad ratings just because they're short.
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But as I said, once you start trying to weight it then you can get too detailed, looking at sections of songs etc. For example everyone who rates SDOIT 10/10 for the full thing, I'm pretty sure almost all of them would NOT rate each section/track 10/10.
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Well if they're rating it 10/10 if they don't think it deserves it, then that's their fault, not the fault of the system. The system is more accurate for an overall album score if it's weighted. I don't see how it's a bad thing at all.
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Well I think the weighted method is more fair. A one minute song like Through My Words shouldn't affect the overall score as much as a 12+ minute song like Home or Finally Free. Especially when people tend to give the really short songs really bad ratings just because they're short.
I don't think it's more fair at all. I don't rank how much I like songs by how long or short they are. That's just silly, ariich's right.
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Nobody said you should rank songs based on how long they are. You give a song the score it deserves.
Here's a scenario to explain it- Say you have an album with 2 songs. One of the songs is 70 minutes long, and everyone thinks it deserves 10/10. The other song is one minute long and nobody likes it and give it 0/10. Does that album deserve to get ranked as 5/10 based on an equal weighting score? Of course not. It deserves close to 10/10 overall.
A weighted score makes complete sense, and there is no reason not to do it.
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As the one that started this, I'd like to point out that yes, the gap between the scores changed, but the order of the albums based on where they finished rather than their score remained the same. Thanks.
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Now that I think about it, I completely understand where you guys are coming from (ariich, hef), although my preference is still weighted.
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Take the Time is the best DT song dammit.
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Great job ariich, thanks for compiling everything and working it out so well!
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Now that I think about it, I completely understand where you guys are coming from (ariich, hef), although my preference is still weighted.
:lol VICTORY IS OURS!
Obviously it comes down to preference, and I can see why someone likes the slightly more detailed one. I just think that going down that route would require even more detail to even mean that much, and so personally I feel that a simple average is more fair.
I can totally see the point in your argument though, and it's clearly the reason that Octavarium does significantly better with weightings.
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I don't think any more detail is required for the weighted system to mean anything. If this whole rating idea means anything, we have to assume that people's ratings for each song is an accurate representation of how they feel about the song as a whole. Assuming that, I think that the weighted ratings for the albums are pretty useful, especially with Octavarium as you said.
But I understand that you and hef don't think duration should be taken into account, and instead essentially give the album an overall score based on the average ranking of the songs on the album, which also makes sense.
Just a preference of which figure you think more accurately sums up an album. Of course we all know that neither figure will truly represent how people feel about the album anyway, since an album is more than the sum of its parts.
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Of course we all know that neither figure will truly represent how people feel about the album anyway, since an album is more than the sum of its parts.
Exactly! :tup
This whole project was for songs, rather than albums.
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We could do another smaller album rating thread. Same idea, but just give the albums an overall rating, then we rank the albums that way. That would eliminate any debates about which method is best, especially since neither of them is truly accurate anyway.
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Yeah I was thinking that. Only problem is I can see quite a few people giving 10/10s for almost everything. :lol
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Well the same happened with songs too. And there will be people who give 0s just to be assholes too. It just goes with the territory when you ask an entire forum, I suppose. In theory the law of averages should even it out.
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It's also very interesting that the modern DT albums rate so highly, and Awake is in 6th :) :hat
When people grow up and start listening to real music they'll understand the mistake they made by not listing the songs on Awake higher.
Orcus from 1 AM, shut the hell up.
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Take that, orcus. You got told.
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Glad to see Black Clouds high and Failing Into Infinity low on both. Awake could probably be higher if Space Dye Vest wasn't there, so blame Kevin Moore.
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I blame Kevin Moore every day.
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Same old, same old.
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And there will be people who give 0s just to be assholes too.
Did you just own yourself? :lol
It's also very interesting that the modern DT albums rate so highly, and Awake is in 6th :) :hat
When people grow up and start listening to real music they'll understand the mistake they made by not listing the songs on Awake higher.
Orcus from 1 AM, shut the hell up.
:rollin
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And there will be people who give 0s just to be assholes too.
Did you just own yourself? :lol
Hell yeah biznitch.
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Looking over the list again, I'd say "Biggest Surprise" definitely goes to Blind Faith at #14. I really like the song, but I didn't expect it to finish that high.
Also, shocked at how well rated "The Shattered Fortress" is.
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Fantastic list. Top 20 has 18 of my top 20 songs in it. Good to see all the different data
Biggest surprise for me was This Dying Soul at #55
I rate this song alot higher then this. But I guess it's not as popular as I thought!
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(https://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/ddtonfire/Regression.png)
This is the trendline without WDaDU. It regresses.
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Yeah I was thinking that. Only problem is I can see quite a few people giving 10/10s for almost everything. :lol
How about everyone just ranks them 1-10? Which ever album has the most 1st place nominations gets the highest rank and the most 2nd place nominations gets the 2nd place rank and so on. What do you think?
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(https://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/ddtonfire/Regression.png)
This is the trendline without WDaDU. It regresses.
After Awake, though, it inclines.
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(https://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/ddtonfire/Regression.png)
This is the trendline without WDaDU. It regresses.
If that's the gradient of their regression after 17 years, they're doing pretty damn well :lol
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Goddammit stop with the regression line! (Nick, look what you've started! :lol) In both of the graphs posted, the gradient is so low and the value of r^2 is also very low, which any mathematician will tell you shows that there is NO trend.
Yeah I was thinking that. Only problem is I can see quite a few people giving 10/10s for almost everything. :lol
How about everyone just ranks them 1-10? Which ever album has the most 1st place nominations gets the highest rank and the most 2nd place nominations gets the 2nd place rank and so on. What do you think?
Yeah I thought about something like that as well, but it has the problem that the distance between albums is not taken into account. For example, for me DT have three 5-star albums. Say the next ranking was 3-stars (it's not, but let's be hypothetical); The difference between 2nd and 3rd place is the same as between 3rd and 4th in the rankings, but in terms of how much I actually like them, the differences should be completely different.
That was why I didn't do this song stuff as a ranking and did it as ratings instead.
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That's a fairly accurate representation of my list, actually. Scarred should be higher, but overall I like it!
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Goddammit stop with the regression line! (Nick, look what you've started! :lol) In both of the graphs posted, the gradient is so low and the value of r^2 is also very low, which any mathematician will tell you shows that there is NO trend.
So they're really inconsistent is what you're saying.
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Goddammit stop with the regression line! (Nick, look what you've started! :lol) In both of the graphs posted, the gradient is so low and the value of r^2 is also very low, which any mathematician will tell you shows that there is NO trend.
So they're really inconsistent is what you're saying.
No, all their albums are between ~7 and ~9 out of 10. Which is pretty consistent.
What I'm saying is that there is no upward or downward trend, and that there are fluctuations from album to album because obviously they won't all be identical in quality and popularity.
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Really? That's sort of the case with me for ANTR, it just seems to go on for too long with no real interesting variation except the 'beautiful agony' section. But then I suppose I'm not really into the metal side of DT quite as much, despite the fact I think Glass Prison is a top fiver.
Exactly this. The last 8 minutes of ANTR has 1 Labrie vocal (the choruse). Give me a break.
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Really? That's sort of the case with me for ANTR, it just seems to go on for too long with no real interesting variation except the 'beautiful agony' section. But then I suppose I'm not really into the metal side of DT quite as much, despite the fact I think Glass Prison is a top fiver.
Exactly this. The last 8 minutes of ANTR has 1 Labrie vocal (the choruse). Give me a break.
So? Stream of Conciousness has 11 minutes with zero Labrie vocal.
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:facepalm: I'm sure that Dream Team didn't mean it that way.
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:facepalm: I'm sure that Dream Team didn't mean it that way.
Well, 7.5 minutes of the 8 are instrumental, so what did he mean?
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Goddammit stop with the regression line! (Nick, look what you've started! :lol) In both of the graphs posted, the gradient is so low and the value of r^2 is also very low, which any mathematician will tell you shows that there is NO trend.
Holy crap, you're right. The coefficient of determination was less than 0.01 for the unweighted averages (incl WDaDU) and 0.058 for the weighted averages.
All in all it's safe to say that Dream Theater is not trendy.
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:lol I wasn't expecting that much detail, but nice job anyway! :tup
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math
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maths
Fixed :biggrin:
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:lol
No matter how hard I try I the word 'maths' will always be grammatically and visually wrong in my head.
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:lol I know, it's the same with us and "math". Funny how the addition or omission of one solitary "s" can just screw the whole word up.
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Maths just sounds like you have a lisp. It's pretty ugly to pronounce with that added s.
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Not if you've always pronounced it that way.
Math sounds like someone with a lisp trying to say "mass".
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Not if you've always pronounced it that way.
Math sounds like someone with a lisp trying to say "mass".
No, it sounds like bath with an m.
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(https://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g98/ddtonfire/Regression.png)
This is the trendline without WDaDU. It regresses.
If that's the gradient of their regression after 17 years, they're doing pretty damn well :lol
This. Some bands regress drastically in 17 years. Think of Metallica.
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Kevin Moore albums:
(https://img704.imageshack.us/img704/1117/kevinmoore.jpg)
Jordan Rudess albums:
(https://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2746/jordanrudess.jpg)
KM>JR
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KM>JR
How do you figure that? Because if we're going to try and come up with lame proofs of things, by my calculations:
KM albums average: 7.551
JR albums average: 7.611
So statistically, in DTF's opinion, JR>KM. :P
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Although, JP, MP, and JM have only gotten better over time, so that would account for the higher mean. ;)
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Well screw you guys. *listens to Prophets Of War*
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*dances*
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The Glass Prison is 4th?
The Count of Tuscany is 5th?
I know everyone has their own taste, but to me those songs are not representative of DT at their best. Both songs are far from masterpieces, in my opinion. The top-10 songs should be masterpiece after masterpiece. TCoT is great musically, but the lyrics are a cheese-fest IMO and that seriously damages its greatness. Lyrics are an important element of a song's greatness.
Meanwhile, TGP is the most meandering, tedious song in the DT catalog and it breaks no new ground musically in my opinion. To me, it's just 14 minues of noise. It doesn't mix in a quiet moment or slow things down briefly like most well-rounded epics. It's just loud. I'll never understand the love it gets.
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TCoT is great musically, but the lyrics are a cheese-fest IMO and that seriously damages its greatness.
"In your opinion," precisely! They're an odd, surreal voyage imo - very quirky and told in a way befitting of the music and of the story itself. They're clearly not getting in the way of everyone else's enjoyment of the song so it's in fifth.
That said though, yeah, TCOT is a bit higher than I expected. It's top 10 but I don't reckon it's top 5 - but then I'm just a voice in a near-unanimously positive crowd! Apparently the over-arching opinion is that it's fantastic (which it is), so fair doos.
The Glass Prison is higher than I'd have put it, but it's still a mighty fine song imo and it's deserving of its praise. A well earnt fourth.
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TGP is probably their best "metal" song. It's a little too high, I agree, but its meandering sound and heaviness make it so good. It's incredibly emotional in the sense that the frustration, anger, and desperation of the main character are accurately displayed by the music. Top 20 material, for sure.
TCOT has a killer intro, and hands-down the best ending. The whale part, the lyrics, and many of the verses are mediocre, but it deserves a place in the top 5, if not the top 10.
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So it's a top 5/10 song for 5-6 minutes out of the entire song? Maybe if the band had a dozen songs or so.
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So it's a top 5/10 song for 5-6 minutes out of the entire song? Maybe if the band had a dozen songs or so.
No, the intro is about 5 minutes, and the outro is about 5 minutes, and if you add up the amazing choruses, that's about 2 minutes. So 12/20 of TCOT is mindblowing, while the rest is good not great. So, mathematically speaking:
((mindblowing x 12) + (good x 8))/20 = amazing
TCoT is amazing.
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:lol
We really love our equations don't we?
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Calculating. Formulating.
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Meanwhile, TGP is the most meandering, tedious song in the DT catalog and it breaks no new ground musically in my opinion.
How do any of the other songs "break new ground"?
So it's a top 5/10 song for 5-6 minutes out of the entire song? Maybe if the band had a dozen songs or so.
No, the intro is about 5 minutes, and the outro is about 5 minutes, and if you add up the amazing choruses, that's about 2 minutes. So 12/20 of TCOT is mindblowing, while the rest is good not great. So, mathematically speaking:
((mindblowing x 12) + (good x 8))/20 = amazing
TCoT is amazing.
*brainsplode*
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Meanwhile, TGP is the most meandering, tedious song in the DT catalog and it breaks no new ground musically in my opinion.
Of course, because Dream Theater had released plenty of metal songs on previous albu- oh wait.
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Calculating. Formulating.
I sense some new MP vocal lines coming up.
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Calculating. Formulating.
I sense some new MP vocal lines coming up.
Those are JLMB lyrics.
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I definitely read that as James LaMyungBrie. I think my brain just broke.
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You've reached a higher state.
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Calculating. Formulating.
I sense some new MP vocal lines coming up.
Those are JLMB lyrics.
Ah, yes. Forgot about that.
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I definitely read that as James LaMyungBrie. I think my brain just broke.
If JLB and JM had a baby...
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This thread has recently gone from awesome to...a completely different kind of awesome.
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TGP is probably their best "metal" song. It's a little too high, I agree, but its meandering sound and heaviness make it so good. It's incredibly emotional in the sense that the frustration, anger, and desperation of the main character are accurately displayed by the music. Top 20 material, for sure.
SilentFox, I have never agreed so wholeheartedly with you. TGP is great, but DT has done at least 10 better songs. It is, however, their best foray into pure heavy metal. I'm fine with where it ended up in the rankings.
TCOT has a killer intro, and hands-down the best ending. The whale part, the lyrics, and many of the verses are mediocre, but it deserves a place in the top 5, if not the top 10.
The intro is excellent, and everything from the ambient section onward (and including it) is superb. In between is less impressive, but still pretty solid, and I'm still not a huge fan of the lyrics (though they are entertaining). I'd place it in my top 15-20 for sure, possibly higher.
Overall, I approve of the results. At first glance, Hell's Kitchen, Scarred, and probably Space-Dye Vest are the only songs I notice that didn't make the top 20, but would definitely make it in my own list. I'd also rank Octavarium somewhere in the 8-10 range (certainly not #1), and I'd remove all but maybe one of the SFAM songs.
Just nit-picking though; the results are interesting and I'm pretty pleased with them. :police:
-J
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So it's a top 5/10 song for 5-6 minutes out of the entire song? Maybe if the band had a dozen songs or so.
No, the intro is about 5 minutes, and the outro is about 5 minutes, and if you add up the amazing choruses, that's about 2 minutes. So 12/20 of TCOT is mindblowing, while the rest is good not great. So, mathematically speaking:
((mindblowing x 12) + (good x 8))/20 = amazing
TCoT is amazing.
good maths
i bet isaac newton didnt call it math
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The Glass Prison is 4th?
The Count of Tuscany is 5th?
I know everyone has their own taste, but to me those songs are not representative of DT at their best. Both songs are far from masterpieces, in my opinion. The top-10 songs should be masterpiece after masterpiece. TCoT is great musically, but the lyrics are a cheese-fest IMO and that seriously damages its greatness. Lyrics are an important element of a song's greatness.
Meanwhile, TGP is the most meandering, tedious song in the DT catalog and it breaks no new ground musically in my opinion. To me, it's just 14 minues of noise. It doesn't mix in a quiet moment or slow things down briefly like most well-rounded epics. It's just loud. I'll never understand the love it gets.
I can understand your opinion on TCOT (although musically it is so high up that it makes up for the lyrics for the most part), but TGP is a perfect representation of DT's music. It is the perfect blend of heaviness, technicality, and most importantly melody and songwriting without being overshadowed by those other elements.
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The Glass Prison is 4th?
The Count of Tuscany is 5th?
I know everyone has their own taste, but to me those songs are not representative of DT at their best. Both songs are far from masterpieces, in my opinion. The top-10 songs should be masterpiece after masterpiece. TCoT is great musically, but the lyrics are a cheese-fest IMO and that seriously damages its greatness. Lyrics are an important element of a song's greatness.
Meanwhile, TGP is the most meandering, tedious song in the DT catalog and it breaks no new ground musically in my opinion. To me, it's just 14 minues of noise. It doesn't mix in a quiet moment or slow things down briefly like most well-rounded epics. It's just loud. I'll never understand the love it gets.
I can understand your opinion on TCOT (although musically it is so high up that it makes up for the lyrics for the most part), but TGP is a perfect representation of DT's music. It is the perfect blend of heaviness, technicality, and most importantly melody and songwriting without being overshadowed by those other elements.
AND...it kicks ass. :metal
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The Glass Prison deserves its high ranking but The Count of Tuscany doesn't even break top 20 for me maybe like even 40. Octavarium might not break top 20 either. Its insane for me how this list turned out :eek
I couldn't rate songs by giving them number scores I'm individually pitting them against the song above it and below and moving it accordingly.
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AND...it kicks ass. :metal
It is amazing. REALLY wish it had more live circulation.
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AND...it kicks ass. :metal
It is amazing. REALLY wish it had more live circulation.
agreed
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The two songs I would move the furthest would be ITNOG from 8 to the lower 30's (never got why this song is so universally loved--I like it, just don't love it) and Hollow Years would move up to the upper 30's (song means a lot to me personally).
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The two songs I would move the furthest would be ITNOG from 8 to the lower 30's (never got why this song is so universally loved--I like it, just don't love it) and Hollow Years would move up to the upper 30's (song means a lot to me personally).
Yeah ITNOG is way to high. Hollow Years (Live at Budokan) is a top 5 song for me.