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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: Dr. SeaWolf on November 12, 2009, 05:37:55 PM
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Been listening to a lot of Savatage lately, and decided they deserve their own thread, since they don't already have one. Anyone else into them? For my money, "Believe" has got to be one of the best album closers of all time.
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Funny you should start this now. I myself have been listening to Savatage a lot lately too. And there's currently a facebook "event" going on called "Savatage Season", because apparently November through January is more or less considered "Savatage listening time". I guess there's something about this time of year that makes people want to listen to them.
Anyway, one of my favorite bands. Imo, you can never have too much of them.
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I have to say though, I definitely prefer the Jon Oliva-led albums. Zachary Stevens is a vastly inferior vocalist IMO.
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The only Savatage album I've heard is Hall of the Mountain King. It's pretty good. I just haven't got around to listening to any of their other stuff.
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The only Savatage album I've heard is Hall of the Mountain King. It's pretty good. I just haven't got around to listening to any of their other stuff.
You literally MUST hear Gutter Ballet and Streets ASAP.
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The only Savatage album I've heard is Hall of the Mountain King. It's pretty good. I just haven't got around to listening to any of their other stuff.
You literally MUST hear Gutter Ballet and Streets ASAP.
Gutter Ballet is alright and Street is pretty good, but if you want a great album skip right to Edge of Thorns.
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Streets and Gutter Ballet are two of my favorite albums of all time. Great, great band.
The only Savatage album I've heard is Hall of the Mountain King. It's pretty good. I just haven't got around to listening to any of their other stuff.
You literally MUST hear Gutter Ballet and Streets ASAP.
Gutter Ballet is alright and Street is pretty good, but if you want a great album skip right to Edge of Thorns.
*sigh* Damn it, Nick
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The only Savatage album I've heard is Hall of the Mountain King. It's pretty good. I just haven't got around to listening to any of their other stuff.
You literally MUST hear Gutter Ballet and Streets ASAP.
Gutter Ballet is alright and Street is pretty good, but if you want a great album skip right to Edge of Thorns.
I think I would go with Streets and Dead Winter Dead as my favorite Savatage albums. Also, if you like Trans-Siberian Orchestra, Dead Winter Dead is the album that started that whole project.
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Have loved Savatage for years, and I concur that wintertime seems to be the best time to listen to them! I love pretty much everything from Hall of the Mountain King on, the early albums are good but not as special as the later ones in my opinion. I love both vocalists, I prefer Zakk's voice as a whole but Jon gets so much emotion into his, you can really tell he was giving it his all. They've also had a string of amazing guitarists, Criss being probably my favourite but the ones that followed on are absolutle beasts in their own right.
I probably would say Edge of Thorns is my favourite album, the combination of Zakks vocals and Criss' guitar playing just edges (haha) it above the rest, that being said I really love every album and listen to them a lot. TSO are great fun, I listen to them a lot around Xmas and they are immense live also!
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Zakk is an alright singer, but he seems to flub notes alot during the medium-heavy parts. He sounds great during really soft and really heavy songs, but the transition between the two types of singing is not so great, in my opinion. I think Jon has a much better range of singing styles. I agree that Edge of Thorns is an awesome album, though.
As for my personal favorite albums, I would probably go with Gutter Ballet, with Streets following closely behind.
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Love Savatage. Favorites are Hall of the Mountain King, Gutter Ballet, Edge of Thorns and The Wake of Magellan.
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I have to say though, I definitely prefer the Jon Oliva-led albums. Zachary Stevens is a vastly inferior vocalist IMO.
My feelings as well, I much more perfer them when they were more a power metal band, than the experimental/concept stuff they did later
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Yeah, my band just got through playing with circle II circle, Zac Stevens' band.
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I always make sure I have some Savatage albums in my vehicle. I find myself definitely being more partial to Zach Stevens vocals. Everyone has their own taste though. Like other's have said, "Edge of Thorns" is probably my favorite Savatage album. I really like "Dead Winter Dead" and "Handful of Rain" too. I'm a big Testament fan, so I naturally like "Handful of Rain" with Alex Skolnick playing.
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I have to say though, I definitely prefer the Jon Oliva-led albums. Zachary Stevens is a vastly inferior vocalist IMO.
Ouch..literally one of the worst bands I've ever seen live. The singer was horrific...mind you this was in 1987..
OK, let the appreciation continue..sorry.
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I have to say though, I definitely prefer the Jon Oliva-led albums. Zachary Stevens is a vastly inferior vocalist IMO.
Ouch..literally one of the worst bands I've ever seen live. The singer was horrific...mind you this was in 1987..
OK, let the appreciation continue..sorry.
Of course, I can't speak for their live shows, but as far as the studio albums go, Mountain King through Streets are my favorites.
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Yeah, my band just got through playing with circle II circle, Zac Stevens' band.
Where at? My old band opened for them and JOP here in Allentown.
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So did my fellow Savatage fans hear the news about the Greatest Hits compilation, and the live DVD being put out?
I don't need the GH package except for the bonus tracks, but the DVD :metal
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"Believe" has got to be one of the best album closers of all time.
:hefdaddy
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Can't say anything more than that I love them. I got to know them when a friend let me hear Gutter Ballet. Then I started buying the second half of their discography, every one as good as the other.
Anyway, yesterday I bought HOTMK and Dungeons. Just finished listening to King, which I loved, Dungeons will be up later today!
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:metal forgot I started this thread.
Can't say anything more than that I love them. I got to know them when a friend let me hear Gutter Ballet. Then I started buying the second half of their discography, every one as good as the other.
Anyway, yesterday I bought HOTMK and Dungeons. Just finished listening to King, which I loved, Dungeons will be up later today!
For me, HOTMK through Streets are their best albums, but the later Zak Stevens albums are great too, especially Dead Winter Dead and Edge of Thorns.
edit: I'm thinking of checking out Jon Oliva's Pain... are they worthwhile?
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Just finished listening to King, which I loved, Dungeons will be up later today!
The dungeons are calling.... calling for meeeeeeee
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Possibly the most underrated band ever!! Every album is a masterpiece, yet so different. Gutter Ballet and Streets are the definitions of perfection. Classic band, RIP Criss, one of the best most underrated guitarists ever. It really pisses me off when I see magazines going on about all the fallen guitar hero's and yet Criss Oliva is never in sight, it's criminal!
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So did my fellow Savatage fans hear the news about the Greatest Hits compilation, and the live DVD being put out?
I don't need the GH package except for the bonus tracks, but the DVD :metal
Bring on March for this baby. Perhaps not the best tracklist from what I remember, but IMO a Savatage greatest hits should have about 8 cds!! LOL. It's going to be worth it for Live in Japan 94 no doubt.
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I love Savatage too. And wow...it's just occurred to me that I can't even remember the last time I really listened to them. Might have even been last Christmas when I spun Dead Winter Dead a few times. I didn't even listen to it this Christmas (although I remember meaning to).
And as far as which era I prefer, I'd honestly have to say "both." I think Jon Oliva is a better metal singer, and those classic Savatage albums are amazing, but I really love Zak Steven's voice too. It doesn't matter...but I think I might be listening to them at some point today. Thanks for the reminder.
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At the TSO concert I saw a few weeks back (East Coast), Chris mentioned they were going to be doing a non-holiday tour in the spring/summer. Given the Night Castle has a lot of re-worked Savatage (Believe is spine tingling ... vocalist is Tim Hockenberry), I'm sure there will be a lot of that album played on the tour. About as close to Savatage as one can get.
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At the TSO concert I saw a few weeks back (East Coast), Chris mentioned they were going to be doing a non-holiday tour in the spring/summer. Given the Night Castle has a lot of re-worked Savatage (Believe is spine tingling ... vocalist is Tim Hockenberry), I'm sure there will be a lot of that album played on the tour. About as close to Savatage as one can get.
Wow...really? I didn't go see them this year, and I don't think I even knew there was a new album out.
NP: Edge of Thorns...I completely forgot about a lot of these songs. It's reminding me a lot of my old boyfriend and the people I hung out with when I was all about these guys. Some great memories and some great tunes.
Edit: I forgot what a great song 'Conversation Piece' is.
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Finally got the best of in the mail. The DVD is totally worth the price of it. Amazing 94 concert with the great Skolnick. Quality is average considering it came straight from the VHS, but it's a great performance. The remastered tracks sound excellent too.
NP: If I Go Away. Perfect.
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Streets is such an amazing album. This band is so unfairly underrated. The fact that this thread died before it even got to Page 2 supports this theory. More people should know about and listen to this band - why they don't rank as one of the progressive metal "greats" alongside DT, Symphony X, etc. is baffling. So...I'm necro'ing this thread in the vain attempt that maybe more people will be made aware of their existence.
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Streets is such an amazing album. This band is so unfairly underrated. The fact that this thread died before it even got to Page 2 supports this theory. More people should know about and listen to this band - why they don't rank as one of the progressive metal "greats" alongside DT, Symphony X, etc. is baffling. So...I'm necro'ing this thread in the vain attempt that maybe more people will be made aware of their existence.
Good shit Gadough.
I have so many fond memories of discovering Savatage's discography when I was a teenager, some of the best times I had. I must admit I haven't listened to them since I got the best of. I might give a couple of albums a spin tonight.
One of my favs which I'd like to mention is Poets and Madman, such an amazing album. Every song is killer and the atmosphere of it is incredible.
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Wow a Savatage thread. I love this band. Saw them on the Streets tour when they played that killer album from start to finish. That was one of the most powerful musical moments of my life.
EDIT: Listening to Streets now and "Tonight He Grins Again" :metal
EDIT: Can You Hear Me Noooowww? :metal
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Saw them on the Streets tour when they played that killer album from start to finish.
HOLY SHIT!!!!!
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....................................... BUT I DON'T THINK ABOUT YOU ANYMORE
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The guitar solo in Ghost in the Ruins is one of the greatest guitar solos ever.
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....................................... BUT I DON'T THINK ABOUT YOU ANYMORE
*enter amazing D minor riff* :metal
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The guitar solo in Ghost in the Ruins is one of the greatest guitar solos ever.
Always loved this one. Great expression from Criss on this one.
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I absolutely love this band. Every album from Hall of the Mountain King onward are musical masterpieces, each with it's own unique style. Streets is easily my favorite album by them, and Savatage in general are the only band able to consistently make quality concept albums one after another, each with the artistic merit to seriously give Operation Mindcrime a run for it's money. It really is a great injustice that this band is not considered to be as quintessential to prog metal as Queensryche, Fates Warning, Dream Theater and Symphony X (I have even heard young punks at the metal archives claim that Savatage isn't really prog, WTF?!?!). The only relatively adequate reason I could think of to explain why there is such an inherent lack of respect for this amazing band in the progmetal community is that the whole "Broadway metal" thing was so far left of the field that any other prog metal bands were on in the late 80's/early 90's that Savatage never really fit in, even in a genre that supposedly encouraged eclecticism and experimentation of the metal genre. I guess the commercial success of TSO, and the way TSO basically evolved into the next phase of Savatage to the point where they didn't even feel the need to release actual Savatage albums anymore didn't help to endear them to the prog community either. Damn shame too, since I cannot think of a band with a longer string of amazing albums then Savatage. Oh well, at least the 'Tage got the last laugh with all those gold/platinum/2x platinum TSO records :P
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I still hold out hope that one day they will all reunite with Jon and release just one more killer album.
EDIT: Listening to Streets and thinking about how I still think about that concert often and the power and intensity of it, Jon hacking up a lung and spitting all over the stage, not missing a note. The fact that I still think of it like it was yesterday when other concerts from the early 90s have practically faded from memory just illustrates how amazing a live band they were.
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I still hold out hope that one day they will all reunite with Jon and release just one more killer album.
Well they technically never broke up; they just reached the point where they realized that the TSO name was more marketable then Savatage. Jon actually explained it all in an interview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icCmUjQTny8 It make sense really; if you listen to the non-christmas TSO albums, there is very little difference between an album like TSO's Beethoven's Last Night and Savatage's Dead Winter Dead. It was purely a marketing decision, but the whole band is still there in TSO, including their whole studio team with Paul O'Neill and Bob Kinkel. Hell, even the guy who does the artwork for the TSO records is the same guy who did the last few Sava albums. Just image BLN or Night Castle with just Zak and Jon singing and it's pretty obvious that TSO was the logical end product of Savatage.
Of course, I would be lying if I said I wouldn't kill for a new Sava album. I loved the sound of Poets and Madmen (like TSO being really pissed off and getting back to their metal roots with Jon Oliva singing all the parts). And I definitely think TSO should play old Sava classics more often (although they have been doing this recently) And of course TSO is done with the christmas albums and are going to be focusing on rock operas, including a sort of remake/sequel to Gutter Ballet and Streets. But there is nothing that would make me happier then Oliva/Stevens/Caffery/Pitrelli/Middleton/Plate/O'Neill/Kinkel doing another 'Tage record. If they ever finally decide to do it, I have no doubt it would be the most epic Broadway-Metal rock opera ever written :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
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I still hold out hope that one day they will all reunite with Jon and release just one more killer album.
Well they technically never broke up; they just reached the point where they realized that the TSO name was more marketable then Savatage. Jon actually explained it all in an interview here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icCmUjQTny8 It make sense really; if you listen to the non-christmas TSO albums, there is very little difference between an album like TSO's Beethoven's Last Night and Savatage's Dead Winter Dead. It was purely a marketing decision, but the whole band is still there in TSO, including their whole studio team with Paul O'Neill and Bob Kinkel. Hell, even the guy who does the artwork for the TSO records is the same guy who did the last few Sava albums. Just image BLN or Night Castle with just Zak and Jon singing and it's pretty obvious that TSO was the logical end product of Savatage.
Of course, I would be lying if I said I wouldn't kill for a new Sava album. I loved the sound of Poets and Madmen (like TSO being really pissed off and getting back to their metal roots with Jon Oliva singing all the parts). And I definitely think TSO should play old Sava classics more often (although they have been doing this recently) And of course TSO is done with the christmas albums and are going to be focusing on rock operas, including a sort of remake/sequel to Gutter Ballet and Streets. But there is nothing that would make me happier then Oliva/Stevens/Caffery/Pitrelli/Middleton/Plate/O'Neill/Kinkel doing another 'Tage record. If they ever finally decide to do it, I have no doubt it would be the most epic Broadway-Metal rock opera ever written :metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
^ Pretty much what I meant. No matter, TSO just isn't the same...the Christmas thing and all...
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Well, as I said, the non-chistmas albums are basically 'Tage, and they are done with the christmas albums anyways. But yea, especially without Jon and Zack up there, it just isn't the same.....
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Well, as I said, the non-chistmas albums are basically 'Tage, and they are done with the christmas albums anyways. But yea, especially without Jon and Zack up there, it just isn't the same.....
I know what your sayin. Just need Jon or Zack back, especially Jon. I guess I'm just reminiscing for the classic stuff. A 'reunion' if you will.
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IMO, the best of the underrated gems out there, especially in the late 80's and early 90's. Criss Oliva was a spectacular guitarist that deserved to be acclaimed on the level of Randy Rhoads or Zack Wylde, but since the band never got that much mainstream attention, too few people will get to hear his brilliance. Ghost in the Ruins ranks as one of my favorite guitar solos of all time, and perhaps my favorite.
Even their mid to late 90's stuff was pretty solid, with Dead Winter Dead being a great album. But it is clear that the "metal" had given way to a more prog sound, which works in and of itself, but isn't quite the same as it was with Criss.
I'm hoping that we'll see a reunion of the 90's lineup. even if it is for just one tour. But given Jon Oliva's comments (who at times gets pissy about it), I'd say that is pretty unlikely at this time.
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I know I really should branch out and listen to more than just Streets, but I just can't stop listening to this album. I've heard bits and pieces of stuff off of Gutter Ballet, HotMK, Edge of Thorns, and Dead Winter Dead (all of which I loved), but for some reason Streets is just so perfect that I don't feel like I need any more yet. At the same time though, I feel like I'm missing out on some great stuff, which I'm sure is true.
TSO on the other hand, I've been listening to nonstop the past few days, and I can't get enough of them.
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IMO, the best of the underrated gems out there, especially in the late 80's and early 90's. Criss Oliva was a spectacular guitarist that deserved to be acclaimed on the level of Randy Rhoads or Zack Wylde, but since the band never got that much mainstream attention, too few people will get to hear his brilliance.
This is 100% correct.
I know I really should branch out and listen to more than just Streets, but I just can't stop listening to this album. I've heard bits and pieces of stuff off of Gutter Ballet, HotMK, Edge of Thorns, and Dead Winter Dead (all of which I loved), but for some reason Streets is just so perfect that I don't feel like I need any more yet. At the same time though, I feel like I'm missing out on some great stuff, which I'm sure is true.
TSO on the other hand, I've been listening to nonstop the past few days, and I can't get enough of them.
Streets is perfect man, but all the other albums deserve you attention too. 'Tage's whole catalog is just perfect!
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I know I really should branch out and listen to more than just Streets, but I just can't stop listening to this album. I've heard bits and pieces of stuff off of Gutter Ballet, HotMK, Edge of Thorns, and Dead Winter Dead (all of which I loved), but for some reason Streets is just so perfect that I don't feel like I need any more yet. At the same time though, I feel like I'm missing out on some great stuff, which I'm sure is true.
TSO on the other hand, I've been listening to nonstop the past few days, and I can't get enough of them.
Streets is, in my opinion, the culmination of Savatage's stylistic development. Doing a full blown rock opera was the next logical step after playing with both classical and Broadway influences on Hall of the Mountain King and Gutter Ballet, and doing an album with a Broadway-esque narrative (it was original written by Paul O'Neil as a Broadway play) essentially created a structural prototype for later Sava albums, ultimately laying the foundation for what would become TSO. While the roots of TSO can be found as far back as HOTMK, it was on Streets that Savatage first got the opportunity to display their full artistic genius and future potential.
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I love the narration at the beginning of Jesus Saves.
"A lot of characters man, a lot of characters...never thought I'd be one of them though."
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I love the narration at the beginning of Jesus Saves.
"A lot of characters man, a lot of characters...never thought I'd be one of them though."
Originally there were supposed to be spoken segments between all, or at least most, songs on the album, but they were forced to cut them from the album, along with 6 other songs, to make it all fit on one CD. If you're wondering, the other songs were Larry Elbows (you can find the demo for this pretty easily online), Stay, Desiree (both released as bonus tracks later on), Tonight I Will Be King (I have still not found this song anywhere yet, sadly), Sanctuary, and Beyond Broadway (lyrical re-workings of older Savatage b-sides called Target and Before I Hang, respectively)
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Damn, that's a shame. I'd love more spoken segments on the album.
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Yeah, a while back when they were doing the remasters, Paul even hired a bunch of lawyers to scour every inch of Atlantic's archive to find the masters for Streets so they could release a double disc remastered version, with all the songs and spoken segments included, but they came back empty handed. *Sigh* I really would have loved to have heard the whole thing, the way it was intended to be....
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Mozart & Madness from Dead Winter Dead is one of my favorite instrumentals of all time, did anyone like the new version from the latest TSO album?
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Haven't heard it, but I'll give it a listen at some point. :tup
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Haven't heard that either, I might check that out. For me Streets is the ultimate rock opera, and as a concept album, should be ranked as high as all the great such as; SFAM, O:M, The Wall etc. The pure atmosphere of the whole album is intense and Jon and the band portray the story perfectly, in lyric form and in music form. It shows diversities in the band's sound and songwriting and the song in general were really just so damn strong.
Would have loved to hear the 2 disc version too. I don't think more dialogue would have done the album any favours, but it would have been great to hear it how it was intended, especially with the extra tracks. I must say the SPV remaster was a waste. The bonus tracks were wrong and useless, and I hate how some of the tracks were put together, never understood that.
Believe is simply one of the best album closers ever and quite frankly, a perfect song. The whole album is perfect from start to finish, briliiant music, criminally underrated.
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Mozart & Madness from Dead Winter Dead is one of my favorite instrumentals of all time, did anyone like the new version from the latest TSO album?
Yes, I did. I am very glad that TSO has been revisiting Savatage recently, and it appears they will continue to do so, with TSO having a Savatage mini-reunion in Europe on their spring tour and a remake of Gutter Ballet/Streets in the works.
Haven't heard that either, I might check that out. For me Streets is the ultimate rock opera, and as a concept album, should be ranked as high as all the great such as; SFAM, O:M, The Wall etc. The pure atmosphere of the whole album is intense and Jon and the band portray the story perfectly, in lyric form and in music form. It shows diversities in the band's sound and songwriting and the song in general were really just so damn strong.
Would have loved to hear the 2 disc version too. I don't think more dialogue would have done the album any favours, but it would have been great to hear it how it was intended, especially with the extra tracks. I must say the SPV remaster was a waste. The bonus tracks were wrong and useless, and I hate how some of the tracks were put together, never understood that.
Believe is simply one of the best album closers ever and quite frankly, a perfect song. The whole album is perfect from start to finish, briliiant music, criminally underrated.
All of this :tup
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despite it not entirely being done by all of Savatage, I still feel Handful of Rain is their masterpiece. I enjoy all the Zak Stevens records, and some of the pre-Zak stuff, but Handful is by far the record I've listened to the most.
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despite it not entirely being done by all of Savatage, I still feel Handful of Rain is their masterpiece. I enjoy all the Zak Stevens records, and some of the pre-Zak stuff, but Handful is by far the record I've listened to the most.
HOR is a very, very interesting record. Jon and Paul basically wrote it as a way of working through the grief of Chris' death, and consequently it is probably the 'Tage's most personal and emotional album. There is a very strong blues, and in a few places almost western, influence on that record, but it still manages to run the gamut from almost the almost Metallica-esque Taunting Cobras to the epic Chance (which is in my opinion Sava's equivalent of Bohemian Rhapsody). It's definitely not an easy album to get into, and you have to listen to it multiple times to fully "get" it, but once you do, you keep a very special place in your heart for it.
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TDM, you should like, write Savatage's official biography or something. Every offhanded comment we make, you respond with a paragraph chock full of interesting tidbits. :lol
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TDM, you should like, write Savatage's official biography or something. Every offhanded comment we make, you respond with a paragraph chock full of interesting tidbits. :lol
Haha Thank you ;D. Savatage have had a lot of interesting little episodes throughout the course of their career. Hell, the simple juxtaposition of their early (pre-HOTMK) albums to their eventual evolution into the multi-platinum TSO, which single handedly brought back the rock opera as a commercially successful art form, is nothing short of amazing. Their saga is certainly one of the most unique and interesting stories in the history of rock/metal. If I ever get the chance to meet Paul O'Neil or Jon Oliva, I have a number of ideas I would just love to run by them, and one of them is that a SavaTSO biography would be very interesting. If they chose me to write it (not likely, but hey, I can dream, right?), I would be very honored to do so.
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I am a big Sava-fan but I was a fan in spite of Jon's voice really. He's fine on the metal stuff but always struggled with the ballad-y stuff.
Gutter Ballet, Streets, Edge of Thorns, excellent stuff, and the others are great too.
The legend on my tattoo says Silk & Steel from the instrumental on GB, in honour of Criss Oliva.
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I am a big Sava-fan but I was a fan in spite of Jon's voice really. He's fine on the metal stuff but always struggled with the ballad-y stuff.
The legend on my tattoo says Silk & Steel from the instrumental on GB, in honour of Criss Oliva.
I've actually always thought that Jon's ballads were possibly his strongest vocal moments.
Any pics of your tattoo?
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One thing I always wondered, was that on DWD and WOM, why was Chris rhythm guitar only? (of course except for the title track of DWD) My only answer was that Chris played all of Criss' leads live so having Al do all solo work would have evened things out live. Any ideas?
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One thing I always wondered, was that on DWD and WOM, why was Chris rhythm guitar only? (of course except for the title track of DWD) My only answer was that Chris played all of Criss' leads live so having Al do all solo work would have evened things out live. Any ideas?
I'm not entirely certain that Pitrelli played all the leads other then the title cut from DWD on that album and WOM. I do know that at the time, the record label was really pushing him to be in the spotlight due to the departure of Skolnick and the death of Criss Oliva; they felt they needed an already established guitarist in the band, and Pitrelli had played with Alice Cooper, Asia, Dee Snider (in Widowmaker) and others; all Caffery had really done up to that point was played rhythm guitars with Savatage from 87-90, and, of course, Doctor Butcher (in which he played both rhythm and leads). However many or few leads were played by Caffery on those albums was countered by the fact that he played the solos on most of the older material while on tour, due to his more extensive knowledge and experience with the band's back catalog, and the fact the he had played personally with Criss Oliva, and was more familiar with his style of playing (Criss had actually taken Caffery under his wing during their time together in Savatage), so perhaps they gave more of the new solos to Pitrelli to make sure both guitarists would have ample oppertunity to display their talents live. So between the label's heavy promotion of Pitrelli, and the fact that Caffery would be handling most of the older solos live anyways, it would have made sense for Pitrelli to play most of the new solos on the actual albums, as well.
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I was hooked on Hall of the Mountain King, Gutter Ballet, and Streets in my younger days. Great band, I miss them sometimes.
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*Sigh* So a member of Jon Oliva's family has been hospitalized, and he will not be joining TSO on their spring European tour. I wonder if this means the "Savatage Reunion" at the end of the night is canceled, as well as the possibility of bringing the reunion to the US spring tour. :'(
https://www.trans-siberian.com/news1/index.php?Date=2011-03-03
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One thing I always wondered, was that on DWD and WOM, why was Chris rhythm guitar only? (of course except for the title track of DWD) My only answer was that Chris played all of Criss' leads live so having Al do all solo work would have evened things out live. Any ideas?
I'm not entirely certain that Pitrelli played all the leads other then the title cut from DWD on that album and WOM. I do know that at the time, the record label was really pushing him to be in the spotlight due to the departure of Skolnick and the death of Criss Oliva; they felt they needed an already established guitarist in the band, and Pitrelli had played with Alice Cooper, Asia, Dee Snider (in Widowmaker) and others; all Caffery had really done up to that point was played rhythm guitars with Savatage from 87-90, and, of course, Doctor Butcher (in which he played both rhythm and leads). However many or few leads were played by Caffery on those albums was countered by the fact that he played the solos on most of the older material while on tour, due to his more extensive knowledge and experience with the band's back catalog, and the fact the he had played personally with Criss Oliva, and was more familiar with his style of playing (Criss had actually taken Caffery under his wing during their time together in Savatage), so perhaps they gave more of the new solos to Pitrelli to make sure both guitarists would have ample oppertunity to display their talents live. So between the label's heavy promotion of Pitrelli, and the fact that Caffery would be handling most of the older solos live anyways, it would have made sense for Pitrelli to play most of the new solos on the actual albums, as well.
So really, according to your post, what I said was spot on.
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So really, according to your post, what I said was spot on.
Well, the thing about Caffery playing the older solos live was only half the truth; the fact that the label really, really was pushing Pitrelli for his status as a shredder for a number of more established artists was a very big reason for his abilities taking center stage during the DWD/WOM era. But yes, you were correct in your assumptions, but they were only half of the full story. ;)
ADDENDUM: I should probably add that I have not heard or read anything to indicate that there was any resentment over this arrangement. While the band did at least find the idea of the label pushing them to let Pitrelli into the band in the first place somewhat presumptuous, from the making of DWD to the present he has maintained a very friendly and productive relationship with Caffery and the other members of Savatage/TSO. I would be very surprised to find out that there was ever any tension between him and Chris, or anyone else in the band for that mater, over his role in the band.
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I need to listen to Streets. Hall Of The Mountain King, Gutter Ballet and The Wake Of Magellan are sweet.
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So really, according to your post, what I said was spot on.
Well, the thing about Caffery playing the older solos live was only half the truth; the fact that the label really, really was pushing Pitrelli for his status as a shredder for a number of more established artists was a very big reason for his abilities taking center stage during the DWD/WOM era. But yes, you were correct in your assumptions, but they were only half of the full story. ;)
ADDENDUM: I should probably add that I have not heard or read anything to indicate that there was any resentment over this arrangement. While the band did at least find the idea of the label pushing them to let Pitrelli into the band in the first place somewhat presumptuous, from the making of DWD to the present he has maintained a very friendly and productive relationship with Caffery and the other members of Savatage/TSO. I would be very surprised to find out that there was ever any tension between him and Chris, or anyone else in the band for that mater, over his role in the band.
Interesting that the label were pushing Pitrelli's status. I really like his playing, that Alice Trashes the World DVD with him is amazing, I just would have liked to hear some leads from Chris. Even Poets and Madman had a lot of leads from Al. That would have been fine if he was still a member but he wasn't, it should have been 100% Chris, Al left for Megadeth.
If anyone listens to Caffery's Faces CD, it's easy to see that Caffery is an amazing lead guitarist. I guess I always just felt a bit bad for him, being such an accomplished guitarist and not creating anything on cd.
Poets and Madman I must say is a Savatage highlight, damn I love that album. Every song is just solid, a great feel and atmosphere and Jon sounds excellent.
Just finished listening to Streets too, just perfect music.
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I need to listen to Streets. Hall Of The Mountain King, Gutter Ballet and The Wake Of Magellan are sweet.
Yes, you must listen to Streets. It's a perfect album.
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I need to listen to Streets. Hall Of The Mountain King, Gutter Ballet and The Wake Of Magellan are sweet.
Yes, you must listen to Streets. It's a perfect album.
Yep, it really is.
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I am glad that Savatage were able to release one amazing album after another for nearly 20 years and then finally find commercial success with TSO--those guys deserve nothing but the very best. Poets and Madmen is a brilliant final chapter (I agree, every track is strong) but I'll always be hoping for a new album.
And I thought the first four TSO albums were really impressive but man, was I ever disappointed with Night Castle. I guess my expectations were too high--they had been working on that album for so many years to the point where it was becoming Chinese Democracy 2. When they released the first single, "Night Enchanted," my hopes became even higher because the song was practically a gift to Savatage fans. I guess I expected more of that. Instead, I'd say about 75% of the album consists in overlong, monotonous Broadway-esque ballads, with very unappealing vocals. It reminded me of Meat Loaf in a lot of ways; normally, that's not such a bad thing but I expected a lot more from this album.
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If anyone listens to Caffery's Faces CD, it's easy to see that Caffery is an amazing lead guitarist. I guess I always just felt a bit bad for him, being such an accomplished guitarist and not creating anything on cd.
Poets and Madman I must say is a Savatage highlight, damn I love that album. Every song is just solid, a great feel and atmosphere and Jon sounds excellent.
Caffery actually has songwriting credits on almost every song on Poets and Madmen, as well as a number of songs on Wake of Magellan and various TSO songs. Between that and his contributions on various side projects (Doctor Butcher, Chris Caffery band, early Circle II cirlce), I think he is comfortable with accomplishments. ;)
Interestingly, Poets and Madmen was originally intended to have ha both Zack and Jon singing leads, including duets on many songs. As much as I love Jon's voice, I always felt having both singers in the band was a great artistic opportunity, and duel vocals on P&M would have been rather sweet.... :metal Still an awesome album though.
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Dunno how that would have sounded really. I listened to that album again today, and man, Jon is just perfect, I'm happy with just his vocals.
I'm listening to Dead Winter Dead at the moment. Such a great album, great songs all the way through. I forgot how good this one was. Up to One Child at the moment.
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I'd gotten heavily into the earlier albums like Dungeons Are Calling, Hall of The Mountain King, Gutter Ballet and Edge of Thorns. I find that there's a tinge of Megadeth/Queensryche to their early sound.
Anyway, it's probably time I give a listen to Dead Winter Dead, Wake of Magellan and Poets and Madmen.
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I'm bumping this thread for Quadrochosis, who is a very big fan of this band. <3
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Every once in awhile, I decide to get into a classic rock band, mainly through buying the almost their entire discography for pennies on Amazon. I did this with Yes, Maiden, ELP, and a few other bands I know and love.
From Savatage, I only have Hall of the Mountain King but I absolutely adore it, especially for its tongue-in-cheek, "fun" metal characteristics. I'll get Streets next. After that, what do people recommend?
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(https://www.customizedgolfballs.com/shop/images/colored_balls.jpg)
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After that, what do people recommend?
suicide
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Seth you were just telling me how you liked them, you big shoe.
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eldfkgsl no you, frew. I can't stand you sometimes
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Seth you were just telling me how you liked them, you big shoe.
I never said here that I didn't like them! I was just recommending suicide, that's all.
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eldfkgsl no you, frew. I can't stand you sometimes
I know that's just the booze talking. <3
When you sober up, you'll come to your senses and realize how awesome Savatage is.
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Every once in awhile, I decide to get into a classic rock band, mainly through buying the almost their entire discography for pennies on Amazon. I did this with Yes, Maiden, ELP, and a few other bands I know and love.
From Savatage, I only have Hall of the Mountain King but I absolutely adore it, especially for its tongue-in-cheek, "fun" metal characteristics. I'll get Streets next. After that, what do people recommend?
Beware that Streets is a totally different Beast than Mountain King. Mountain King was kind and end of an era for Savatage, after that, a more symphonic, musical and classical approach came out. Streets is very rewarding after repeated listens. Gutter Ballet is essential as is Edge of Thorns. All Savatage is essential, just get Fight for the Rock last.
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Every once in awhile, I decide to get into a classic rock band, mainly through buying the almost their entire discography for pennies on Amazon. I did this with Yes, Maiden, ELP, and a few other bands I know and love.
From Savatage, I only have Hall of the Mountain King but I absolutely adore it, especially for its tongue-in-cheek, "fun" metal characteristics. I'll get Streets next. After that, what do people recommend?
Beware that Streets is a totally different Beast than Mountain King. Mountain King was kind and end of an era for Savatage, after that, a more symphonic, musical and classical approach came out. Streets is very rewarding after repeated listens. Gutter Ballet is essential as is Edge of Thorns. All Savatage is essential, just get Fight for the Rock last.
I'll second all that.
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So after finishing my latest run-through of the entire Savatage discography today, I was listening to a mix of Jon Oliva's Pain, Circle II Cirlce, Doctor Butcher and Chris Caffery, and it got me thinking about something: which members/associates of Savatage currently active would you consider to be necessary for a Savatage reunion? Jon Oliva often says the reason why Savatage can't tour/release albums anymore is because so many Sava alumni need TSO to make a secure living. The mighty 'Tage did go through a very large number of line-up changes over the years, and not all of them are full time members of TSO. Pretty much all the members each had their own strengths as performers that they brought to the band and contributed mightily to the Savatage sound of their respective eras, however, few of them wrote much (if anything) for the band during their respective tenures, so they may not all be necessary for a new Savatage album. However we would need at least enough guys to form a touring unit so the band could play live again.
Here's how I see it (official studio recording members only!):
1) Jon Oliva - Not only does he have writing credits on almost every Sava song, he also is the only individual to actually have participated in the creation of every album (even the ones released during his hiatus from 1991-94). This man is Savatage.
2) Paul O'Neil - Paul gets a lot of shit from more old school 'Tage fans for introducing the band to classical and Broadway music, which resulted in a dramatic shift in style in the late 80's/early 90's. However, from 87 onwards, he has writing credits on almost every Savatage song, and pretty much wrote all the lyrics to the last 3 albums. Also, it goes without saying that it was those very classical/Broadway influences that ultimately defined the band in the long run and distinguished them amongst their peers. Even Jon Oliva has said that Savatage before Paul was more like "Savatage in training." I think Paul's involvement would be essential for a reformed Savatage.
3) Chris Caffery - Even though he was only on 4 Savatage albums, Caffery was a major influence in the band's later career, writing a good chunk of music on the last few Sava albums. Furthermore, Criss Oliva took him under his wing back in 87-90, and it is pretty safe to say that Caffery is one of the few people that can truly do justice to the works of Criss live. Considering that, I think it is pretty safe to say that these days, you can't have Savatage without Chris Caffery.
4) Zack Stevens - Zack is a tricky case. On the one hand, he was only on 4 Savatage albums, and many of the 'Tage's most famous works did not involve him (Hall of the Mountain King, Gutter Ballet, and Streets). Furthermore, he did not write anything during his stint in Savatage. On the other hand, though, Zack's voice is synonymous with Savatage from 1992-2000, and his presence and distinctive vocal talents pretty much revitalized the band after they shot the full creative load on their opus, Streets. The Edge of Thorns album alone is reason enough to serious consider him as a necessity for a true Savatage reunion, to say nothing of the other epic 3 albums he recorded with the band.
5) Johnny Lee Middleton - Johnny is another strange case. He was in Savatage from 1985-2002; longer then anyone save Jon Oliva himself. However, his compositional contributions are minimal, and while he is one hell of a bass player, I think they could probably replace him with another and it would not affect the overall chemistry of the band too much.
6/7) Steve Wacholz/ Jeff Plate - Both are superb drummers, but only one of them is really needed for this hypothetical reunion, and both have very slim writing credits. I may give a slight edge to Wacholz since he was on the first 8 albums and he was also the original drummer of the band. Ultimately, though, I don't think either is too essential.
8) Al Pitrelli - Another fantastic player who was in the band for a relatively brief period of time (6 years/ 3 albums), he helped write a few songs on Wake of Magellan, but according to Jon Oliva, he never really bonded with the band and was more of a hired gun from the start.
9) Alex Skolnick - Pretty much the same as Pitrelli, but he was only on one album and didn't write anything.
10) Keith Collins - Bass player on Sirens and Dungeons. I bet a few of you didn't even know who he was! :P
Also of note is Bob Kinkel. He handled orchestration and some keyboards on Hall of the Mountain King as well as some of the later, more symphonic albums, as well as working as a studio engineer for the band on multiple albums. Not actual a member per se, but like Paul O'Neill, he did contribute pretty mightily to crafting the signature Savatage sound.
Soooooo............... in conclusion, I think at the very least we need Oliva and Caffery in the band with O'Neill as a producer/ songwriter and Kinkel handling orchestration and engineering. Other then that; I have a difficult time seeing them perform most of the 1992-2000 songs without Zack, so I would prefer it if he were part of any reunion (plus I love the possibility of him doing vocal trade-offs with Jon, like in the Japan 94 rendition of Gutter Ballet). I would also prefer Johnny on bass, but despite his lengthy tenure in the band, I would be willing to accept a reunion without him. The same goes for Wacholz, Plate, Pitrelli, Skolnick and Collins (I would think that between two second guitarists, two bass players and two drummers, the could get enough ex-Savatage guys together to make a complete band). If the band needed to bring in new people to fill in those positions, however, I could live with that, although I would prefer these new people to be associated with one of the many Savatage off-shoots (TSO/JOP/CIIC/CC/DB) as well as former touring only members, such as Damond Jiniya and Jack Frost.
Anyways, please comment on this idea, as I would love additional input!
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Sounds good to me. :metal
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Jon Oliva
Chris Caffery
Doc
Johnny
If Doc is unavailable, Plate definitely is allowed to be there.
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Zack Stevens is one of my favorite vocalists of all time. I think he is really shining with CIIC. Machines of Grace was another great release; fans of Zack should definetly check it out. Obviously the Savatage discs, especially Edge of Thorns, are epic
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Zack Stevens is one of my favorite vocalists of all time. I think he is really shining with CIIC. Machines of Grace was another great release; fans of Zack should definetly check it out. Obviously the Savatage discs, especially Edge of Thorns, are epic
I have been meaning to check out Machines of Grace. That has Plate too I believe, sounds good.
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Jon Oliva
Chris Caffery
Doc
Johnny
If Doc is unavailable, Plate definitely is allowed to be there.
Include Zack in there, and yeah, that would be a great lineup for a "reunion" (still feels weird using that word for a band that technically never broke up but whatever). Also, I would add that if they were to do a new Savatage album, Paul would be a necessity. Of course, if we're just talking about a restoration of Savatage as a touring unit, and not actually doing a new record, then that would not apply.
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Yeah, my lineup was based on touring only. I guess Zak could join in, him and Jon worked well together live. For an album, I would also want Paul. He definitely was a benefit to Savatage's style and sound, I really enjoy what he did for the band.
I was just thinking about a second guitarist, and I'm not sure if anyone else would be worthy to fill the slot in a reunion style setting. Skolnik would be my first choice, he really gave a lot of his heart to Savatage IMO, I wish he stuck with them through the ninties period. Al really, as you said was a hired gun and jumped ship when something better came along, I don't think he's necessary, even though I enjoyed the two albums, plus his additional solos on P&M that he worked on.
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You know, the more I think about this whole situation with Savatage, the more I begin to suspect that the only reason why Savatage doesn't play live anymore is because Jon is off having too much fun with JOP. He's been asked a number of times if he would ever perform a Savatage set with TSO and he always shoots down the possibility because, according to him "that's not what I want to do with TSO". It's no secret that he considers TSO to be more of a job and a way to pay the bills then anything else, but if he were maybe a bit more proactive in it, we may at the very least see more 'Tage songs being played at TSO shows (like the "reunion" that was originally planned for the European TSO tour this year, then canned when a relative of Jon's ended up in the hospital and he couldn't participate). It's funny because he keeps telling people that TSO is the modern incarnation of Savatage, yet he seems to want as little to do with it as possible. I sometimes wonder how different TSO may sound if Jon were as involved with it as he was with Savatage back in the Dead Winter Dead days.....
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HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EDqve8Pihw&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EDqve8Pihw&feature=related)
TSO played Chance on their spring tour! Fuck! I was gonna go to that too, but the show near me sold out really quickly. Oh well, hopefully this is another sign that TSO will continue to resurrect more and more Savatage classics live!
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HOLY SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EDqve8Pihw&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EDqve8Pihw&feature=related)
TSO played Chance on their spring tour! Fuck! I was gonna go to that too, but the show near me sold out really quickly. Oh well, hopefully this is another sign that TSO will continue to resurrect more and more Savatage classics live!
I will watch this later at home. Chance has always been one of my fav 'Tage songs. That vocal cannon type section is amazing.
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Wow! That was some clip of Chance. Thanks for sharing.
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CHRIS CAFFERY Hot Sauce Coming Soon
https://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=161243
Guitarist Chris Caffery (TRANS-SIBERIAN ORCHESTRA, SAVATAGE) will soon release his first commercial hot sauce through High River Sauces. More details will be made available soon.
High River Sauces was started by music industry veteran, food junkie and heavy metal cookbook author Steve "Buckshot" Seabury. His cookbook titled "Mosh Potatoes - Recipes, Anecdotes & Mayhem From The Heavyweights Of Heavy Metal" (Simon & Schuster) is a collection of recipes from the biggest names in hard rock and heavy metal.
While putting together the cookbook, Seabury found that his passion for BBQ and hot sauces was shared by many of his favorite icons. After getting such a great response from his friends and family, he decided to start High River Sauces.
Seabury recently sat down with Mike Hultquist of Hot Sauce Madness, a web site that caters to fans of fiery foods and extreme hot sauces. They discussed his inspiration for creating new recipes, the tour sauces, goals for the future and his love of heavy music. You can read his interview and the review of the Hellacious Hot Sauce at this location.
High River Sauces has three different hot sauces that are currently available for purchase exclusively on this summer's biggest tours; the Willie Nelson Throwdown Country Tour (Hillbilly Hellfire Hot Sauce), the Vans Warped Tour (King Scott Hot Sauce) and the Rockstar Energy Drink Mayhem Festival (The Devils Blood Hot Sauce). Each hot sauce is an artisan sauce that promises to give fans who love fiery foods a unique culinary experience. Each recipe captures the finest ingredients, variety of spices and the hottest of peppers to bring you the exceptional blend of heat and balance of expressive flavor.
A portion of proceeds from each bottle sold on these summer tours will benefit the Unite The United Foundation. A charitable organization to help communities hit by natural disasters throughout the United States. Please check out the merchandise tables at these tours and pick up a couple of bottles.
lol
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I've read through this whole thread and unless I just missed it nobody has mentioned Power of the Night. You may not have a 'tage thread and not mention that album. The title track, unusual and in a dream are amazing tracks. Some other great songs on there also.
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CHRIS CAFFERY Hot Sauce Coming Soon
https://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=161243
Guitarist Chris Caffery (TRANS-SIBERIAN ORCHESTRA, SAVATAGE) will soon release his first commercial hot sauce through High River Sauces. More details will be made available soon.
High River Sauces was started by music industry veteran, food junkie and heavy metal cookbook author Steve "Buckshot" Seabury. His cookbook titled "Mosh Potatoes - Recipes, Anecdotes & Mayhem From The Heavyweights Of Heavy Metal" (Simon & Schuster) is a collection of recipes from the biggest names in hard rock and heavy metal.
While putting together the cookbook, Seabury found that his passion for BBQ and hot sauces was shared by many of his favorite icons. After getting such a great response from his friends and family, he decided to start High River Sauces.
Seabury recently sat down with Mike Hultquist of Hot Sauce Madness, a web site that caters to fans of fiery foods and extreme hot sauces. They discussed his inspiration for creating new recipes, the tour sauces, goals for the future and his love of heavy music. You can read his interview and the review of the Hellacious Hot Sauce at this location.
High River Sauces has three different hot sauces that are currently available for purchase exclusively on this summer's biggest tours; the Willie Nelson Throwdown Country Tour (Hillbilly Hellfire Hot Sauce), the Vans Warped Tour (King Scott Hot Sauce) and the Rockstar Energy Drink Mayhem Festival (The Devils Blood Hot Sauce). Each hot sauce is an artisan sauce that promises to give fans who love fiery foods a unique culinary experience. Each recipe captures the finest ingredients, variety of spices and the hottest of peppers to bring you the exceptional blend of heat and balance of expressive flavor.
A portion of proceeds from each bottle sold on these summer tours will benefit the Unite The United Foundation. A charitable organization to help communities hit by natural disasters throughout the United States. Please check out the merchandise tables at these tours and pick up a couple of bottles.
lol
I really admire how some of the proceeds are going to charity. That's pure class
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I've read through this whole thread and unless I just missed it nobody has mentioned Power of the Night. You may not have a 'tage thread and not mention that album. The title track, unusual and in a dream are amazing tracks. Some other great songs on there also.
A definite Tage classic. I love that one.
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I really admire how some of the proceeds are going to charity. That's pure class
Yeah, but if they're already United why is there a Foundation set up to Unite them? ;)
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I really admire how some of the proceeds are going to charity. That's pure class
Yeah, but if they're already United why is there a Foundation set up to Unite them? ;)
Whoa!
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I found this interview with Damond Jiniya while browsing Blabbermouth's Savatage-related interviews. Very interesting stuff in here about his time in Savatage and all the stuff that happened post-2003 with the constant reunion rumors and Jon's constant dismissal of them. Now I know it's BM and they love stirring up trouble, but what Damond says in here makes a lot of sense in light of Savatage's past decade of inaction. Sounds like there was a lot of shit going on behind the scenes with Jon and Paul kind of pussyfooting around on the whole Savatage thing while building up TSO. I am probably going to comment more on this later, but at the moment I'm not entirely certain how I feel about all this:
https://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=159149 (https://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=159149)
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I've only heard In the Hall of the Mountain King (the song).
:metal :metal :metal :metal
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YOU NEED STREETS RIGHT NOW.
Hell, everyone needs Streets.
In other news, I'm listening to Dead Winter Dead right now...it's so good. Goddamn this band was amazing.
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I'm considering getting that album soon.
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I'm considering getting that album soon.
Just to be safe, you should get them all. Hell, even their weakest album, Fight for the Rock, has some must-hear Sava classics.
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I've never listened to Fight For The Rock. I kind of don't want to. I don't want my opinion of the band to be even slightly tarnished.
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I've never listened to Fight For The Rock. I kind of don't want to. I don't want my opinion of the band to be even slightly tarnished.
About half of it is pretty good: The title track is pretty cool, Edge of Midnight is FUCKING AWSOME (imagine if Dio wrote a song for a Castlevania game :metal) and Hyde, She's only Rock and Roll, and Red Light Paradise are all quality pre-HOTMK Sava cuts. As for the rest............. Out on the Streets, Crying For Your Love, and Lady in Disguise are all ok, but the original versions of those three songs are much better (the original OOTS is on Sirens (I have no idea why they decided to release the same song twice), CFYL was originally called Fighting for Your Love and that version can be found on the remaster of Dungeons, and the original LID can be found on the remastered version of Sirens). As for the other two tracks, they are both cover tunes that I personally find unbearable and never listen to.
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It's good to see some fellow 'Tage fans. I was a HUGE fan back in the day, it's a shame they just kind of fizzled. I wish them all the best with TSO, but it's unfortunate Savatage never gave them the fame and income they deserved. I can't believe it was 2003 since they released Poets and Madmen. The time sure does fly.
I'm going to have to give Edge of Thorns a spin now for old times sake. :metal
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It's good to see some fellow 'Tage fans. I was a HUGE fan back in the day, it's a shame they just kind of fizzled. I wish them all the best with TSO, but it's unfortunate Savatage never gave them the fame and income they deserved. I can't believe it was 2003 since they released Poets and Madmen. The time sure does fly.
I'm going to have to give Edge of Thorns a spin now for old times sake. :metal
Welcome! Always nice to see someone who appreciates this almighty band. It is nice they at least got the success they did with TSO, but it is a shame they could never reach that level as Savatage. Hell, the song that made TSO so famous was originally a Savatage track anyways! I guess it just goes to show how crucial a name can be in determining the potential mainstream appeal of a band.
But anyways, just post here anytime you want to talk about 'Tage. TSO is between albums now and Savatage hasn't done an album since 2001, so this thread hasn't been very happening as of late, but if you post here, Wolf, Gadough, myself or any of the other big Sava fans on DTF would love to talk about this amazing band. :metal
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Hey guys, Dead Winter Dead is very close to winning album of the year for 1995. Go vote for it!
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=27652.0 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=27652.0)
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Oh man, I hate to vote against Dead Winter Dead because it's such a fantastic album. But Symbolic is my favorite metal album ever.
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Was just cranking the Edge of Thorns disc yesterday........what a disc and what a voice on ZS.........anyone else a fan of the song "Shotgun Innocence".......I think it was included on an import version of EofT; wish it would have been included in the regular version. It was included on an import best of and Poets and Madmen
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Was just cranking the Edge of Thorns disc yesterday........what a disc and what a voice on ZS.........anyone else a fan of the song "Shotgun Innocence".......I think it was included on an import version of EofT; wish it would have been included in the regular version. It was included on an import best of and Poets and Madmen
Yeah, I have that one of Poets and Madman, good song.
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Shotgun Innocence is an amazing freaking song. Absoultely love it! Like so many other songs on that record, it just has that perfect balance of Criss' guitar wizardry, Zack's phenomenal vox, Johnny and Doc's killer rhythms, and Jon and Paul's pure song writing genius. I also think the title track is quite possibly my favourite album opener of all time, easily one of the best songs in the history of a band that was able to just crank out classic tracks in unlimited numbers. I really wish there were more live videos from the EoT tour; allegedly, it had one of the best touring lineups in the band's history. :metal
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I bought that two disc best of last year which included a DVD w/ Zack in the band. Unfortunetely the disc had a different code and I couldn't play it on my player. The Zack era is my favorite Savatage era without question. I like TSO but I always thought Zack would have/should have been the lead singer of the band; I would've enjoyed TSO much more. At Christmas time when I listen to TSO, the vocals kind of wear on me a bit- if Zack was singing, it would be a different story.
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I bought that two disc best of last year which included a DVD w/ Zack in the band. Unfortunetely the disc had a different code and I couldn't play it on my player. The Zack era is my favorite Savatage era without question. I like TSO but I always thought Zack would have/should have been the lead singer of the band; I would've enjoyed TSO much more. At Christmas time when I listen to TSO, the vocals kind of wear on me a bit- if Zack was singing, it would be a different story.
Totally agreed. From what I understand, when they were writing the first TSO album, Zack and Paul O'Neill had a long discussion about whether or not Zack should be the lead singer of TSO. Zack said that he felt TSO would stand on it's own apart from Savatage better if he was not the lead singer and played more a supporting role. His hiatus from Savatage in 2001-2002, as well as his commitment to Circle II Circle from 2003 onwards further limited his involvement in TSO. Frankly, I think it is a damn shame, as Zack one of my favourite vocalists of all time, and I would have an easier time accepting TSO as the current incarnation of Savatage (as Jon and the others constantly say it is) if Zack was the one up front on stage.
In no way do I intend for any of that to be a slight against the TSO singers. Many of them are amazing in their own right, and I really feel that vocalists like Andrew Ross and Jeff Scott Soto are absolutely phenomenal singers, giving Jon and Zack's parts all the passion and justice they deserve. However, as Jon has made very clear, TSO is the future of Savatage, and with TSO currently embracing their Savatage history a bit more openly as of late (TSO has been playing Savatage songs more consistently, plus Night Castle had numerous musical references to Savatage and stylistically was a 'Tage record in all but name) , I feel it would be appropriate if Zack were to return to TSO/Savatage on a more full-time basis. In a recent interview with Zack, he expressed interest in a greater involvement with TSO, so perhaps this is hope that we could see Zack fronting the mighty Savatage+TSO in the not to distant future!
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Would be cool if Zack had a bigger role. There is no question he has the perfect voice for TSO. As I've said before, IMO, Zack and Ripper Owens are the two most underated vocalists in heavy metal/hard rock.
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I'm a huge fan....
I did Meet & Greet at Jon Oliva's Pain gig 2 years ago... I have to say ... it was painful to see him in such a unhealthy situation.... He had to take a 15 minute break before seeing a new fan each time... and I couldn't look at him properly.... :'(
his voice is still awesome though....
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Back in early '04, Savatage was my second favorite band and was threatening to topple DT as my favorite. I just couldn't believe the epicness of records like Streets,Dead Winter Dead, and The Wake of Magellan. While I was more into their concept albums, I also loved the other two I owned Edge of Thorns and Handful of Rain. While I appreciate Jon Oliva's status as the Mountain King :lol, but I prefer Zak's voice, easily.
As I mentioned, 'Tage was threatening to become my #1 band, then I saw an Evening with Dream Theater, where they played all of a Mind Beside Itself, Metropolis pt. 1, and A Change of Seasons as an encore. Let's just say, I was revitalized as a DT fan, and began to lose intrest in Savatage.
I also learned at some point that 'Tage had never even been to Seattle (where I'm from) for a show, which I found quite dissapointing. However, I guess I could go see them as TSO any winter I choose...
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I'm also a bigtime Sava fan. I've noticed that even when Oliva does tour now it never makes it to the West coast. If memory serves me correct, in 01 they were scheduled to play the west coast, then 9/11 happened and it changed everything. I hadn't moved to Seattle yet, so I wouldn't have seen it anyways. Also, I think they played SLC on the HOR tour, but I was an idiot and missed it.
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https://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=166666 (https://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=166666)
Sooooo............. Zak and Caffery are going to be playing The Wake of Magellan in it's entirety at Waken Open Air next year. :metal
Wish I could go :'(
Incidentally, in the comments section, some dude says he talked to JLM at a TSO concert recently, and Johnny basically told him that the main reason Savatage doesn't do anything anymore is because Paul O'Neill devotes all his time to TSO, but won't let the band do a record or tour without him. .........
Now it is Blabbermouth, so I take it with a grain of salt, but honestly, I have begun to suspect as much. Considering that all of the 'Tage members have no problem finding time to do side projects, play a shit-ton of Sava songs at solo concerts, and they all make guest appearances with each other, both in the studio and at shows, yet somehow they can't do anything as SAVATAGE, makes me wonder if Paul, not Jon Oliva, actually owns the name, which would explain why we get JOP instead of new 'Tage records (really, Jon Oliva doing solo records that sound so much like Savatage is like Dave Mustaine doing a solo record that bears a heavy resemblance to Megadeth) :censored
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Fuck Paul O'Neil. He must own a large chunk of the name as you say. If Jon, Johnny, Jeff, Chris, Zak and even Al are into it, they really don't need Paul, IMO, he held the band back in many ways.
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Yeah, he may deserve some credit for helping to make Savatage into the amazing band they became, but I really think that later on in their careers, he started to hold them back.
I've been listening to a lot of JOP over the past year and a half, and I can totally see how it could be the stylistic continuation of Poets and Madmen. Seriously, Caffery, Zack, Johnny and Doc should just join JOP. Just be Savatage without the name if Paul won't let them use it. All the real fans will figure out what's going on, and I think it would go a long way towards satisfying the hunger Sava fans have for a 'Tage reunion.
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I think there is a realization on all ends that there is still an interest and desire to hear Savatage. That greatest hits that was released last year, while not the best selection of songs, showed that Savatage hasn't been forgotten. While TSO is the money maker, Savatage deserves a proper farewell.
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Seriously, Caffery, Zack, Johnny and Doc should just join JOP.
This is seriously a fabulous idea. That would satisfy me 100%.
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I dunno if I mentioned this before but I'm seeing T.S.O live Christmas week :D
Fingers crossed for Mozart & Madness/Memories.
Is there a T.S.O thread or we can just use this one?
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Ive seen TSO twice and was blown away. I think they translate live much much better then in the studio; much heavier.
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I saw them for my second time on the 3rd and they were amazing. Phenomenal players and performers backed up by the best lightshow you will ever see. The level of intensity and passion in their live shows far outstrips what you hear on the records; I sometimes think they tone down the sound of their recordings so as not to drive away potential fans who may be easily turned off by something that "metal".
I dunno if I mentioned this before but I'm seeing T.S.O live Christmas week :D
Fingers crossed for Mozart & Madness/Memories.
Is there a T.S.O thread or we can just use this one?
Both last year and this year, they played Mozart and Memories at the start of the second half of the show.
There is no TSO thread as such. It seems to me that much of the TSO discussion on this forum in pretty limited to this Savatage thread. I would not be adverse to the creation of a separate TSO thread, but any discussion of TSO, just like any discussion of any other project of Savatage members, ultimately leads back to the almighty 'Tage anyways, so creating a separate thread may be a bit redundant.
So, in other words, this thread is probably the best place to start a TSO discussion on DTF. ;)
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Thats a good point. I guess if the albums were more metal, it would turn off a great deal of the public. But by getting them to the live show, they can turn it up many notches and people won't be turned off because of the spectacle in front of them. I just listened to their Christmas triology box set and even though it's enjoyable, it can be somewhat of a chore to get through.
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Thats a good point. I guess if the albums were more metal, it would turn off a great deal of the public. But by getting them to the live show, they can turn it up many notches and people won't be turned off because of the spectacle in front of them. I just listened to their Christmas triology box set and even though it's enjoyable, it can be somewhat of a chore to get through.
Totally. I very rarely listen to the Christmas albums in their entirety and, truth be told, I rarely listen to the Christmas albums outside of November and December. There are just not enough dynamics, drama or variety on those records for me to be able to comfortably listen to them from top to bottom on a regular basis. I really think the main reasons they did three Christmas albums was because a) their first big hit was a Christmas song, so they decided to cash in on what they knew would make money, and b) their Christmas shows are their single largest source of income, and I am certain they wanted a wide selection of Christmas tracks to perform at those shows (remember, TSO did not start touring until 1999, after the second Christmas album had been released.)
Releasing Beethoven's Last Night between the second and third x-mas records was probably a strategic decision to prevent the band from becoming merely a Christmas act in the eyes of the public, and to show that they had musical ambitions outside of the holiday season. I really think records like BLN, Night Castle and the upcoming Romanov and Gutter Ballet are in all likelihood the kind of albums Paul, Bob and Jon really wanted to make (Romanov was written back in 1993, and the original Gutter Ballet was written in the late 70's) but they first wanted to build up a lot of cash first so that they could have the freedom to do what really mattered to them on their own terms.
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There is no chance I would ever listen to TSO in July or August lol. Mid December is the only time.
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There is no chance I would ever listen to TSO in July or August lol. Mid December is the only time.
Man I so disagree. 'other stories is just awesome, start to finish. Sure, it's especially special this time of year, but it's great at anytime. Quick to skip over the four acoustic carols sure, but otherwise it's great.
I've seen their live show every year for the past 5. Going again (east coast tour) on the 28th I think. I'm hoping for an improvement this year. Last year, they lost a handful of people (Alex, I believe Jay Pierce, and some others), and it was not as good as prior years. For instance, I remember the first time I saw Old City Bar, and was absolutely floored. Last year, whoever did it was extremely garbly, and the tempo was way too slow.
Net of it, they put on a fantastic show, no question. I just hope they return to form this year.
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Yes, it's a good cd, no question about it. But if it's a hot summer night and I'm going for a cruise and want to listen to something Savatage related, I'm cranking out Power of the Night or Hall of the Mountain King; not Christmas Eve and other stories. I've seen them live twice, but haven't seen them for three years. They do seem to have a turnover rate. I just checked their website to see their latest lineup; they now include Ronny Munroe from Metal Church. That will be interesting to hear.
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Just listened to Gutter Ballet for the first time in years. Man, I forgot how good that album is. They were really on to something back then.
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I didn't get into Savatage until the early 2000's and Gutter Ballet was one of the first songs I had heard from them. I saw the title track video on some VH1 classic metal show and immediately went and ordered the disc from amazon.
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There is no chance I would ever listen to TSO in July or August lol. Mid December is the only time.
I listen to Beethoven's Last Night, in it's entirety, on a year round basis. Other then that, I may listen to a few of my favourite tracks from the other albums here and there throughout the year, but generally speaking, I do the vast majority of my TSO listening in November & December.
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That new T.S.O track Who I Am was offered to me to download for free when I got my tickets for the show and I didn't get. Now I can't access that feature again.
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That new T.S.O track Who I Am was offered to me to download for free when I got my tickets for the show and I didn't get. Now I can't access that feature again.
Ticketmaster sent me an email with a link to download the song. The link took me to the TSO store and I had to make an account there in order to download the file. For some reason, firefox was being a real biotch about opening the download page, so I had to open it in internet explorer, but when I finally got it to open, it just started to automatically download.
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Has anyone heard the track, is it any good?
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That new T.S.O track Who I Am was offered to me to download for free when I got my tickets for the show and I didn't get. Now I can't access that feature again.
Ticketmaster sent me an email with a link to download the song. The link took me to the TSO store and I had to make an account there in order to download the file. For some reason, firefox was being a real biotch about opening the download page, so I had to open it in internet explorer, but when I finally got it to open, it just started to automatically download.
Yeah Chrome gave the same problem. But I already deleted that ticketmaster e-mail and now I can't get the song :(
Has anyone heard the track, is it any good?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcvmNx4Ihd8
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Loved the show, I forgot to post here the same day but I really had fun.
On the line in, 2 guys behind me talking and my ear caught this "And Al Pitrelli the guitarist used to play for Megadeth and his brother is Dream Theater guitarist". To which I had to turn around with as big a smile as I could and they could see the Majesty symbol on my cap and all so the guy said "Right?" I just said "The guy from Dream Theater is called Petrucci, fairly easier to remember than Pitrelli imo, let alone that Petrucci is more famous", he stared at me for a couple of astonished seconds then he said to his friend "Dream Theater fans always correct me on shit" :lol
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Nothing more annoying than people who think they know what they are talking about, but seriously don't have a friggin' clue.
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Loved the show, I forgot to post here the same day but I really had fun.
On the line in, 2 guys behind me talking and my ear caught this "And Al Pitrelli the guitarist used to play for Megadeth and his brother is Dream Theater guitarist". To which I had to turn around with as big a smile as I could and they could see the Majesty symbol on my cap and all so the guy said "Right?" I just said "The guy from Dream Theater is called Petrucci, fairly easier to remember than Pitrelli imo, let alone that Petrucci is more famous", he stared at me for a couple of astonished seconds then he said to his friend "Dream Theater fans always correct me on shit" :lol
Funny thing is, Pitrelli actually does have a DT connection; he and Derek played together in Alice Cooper's band back in the late 80's/early 90's. In fact, Dream Theater even gets a special thanks in the liner notes of TWOM.
Still, JP and Pitrelli as brothers.......... :lol
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Woo!! A Savatage thread!!
Love the band. Streets and Edge of Thorns have a poignant mark on my high school days. It would be sweet if they actually did an album as Savatage again rather than just the TSO work... not that I don't mind TSO. I actually get a laugh out of sitting in the crowd at a TSO show and watching people get up and leave because they thought it was a totally family geared Christian type Christmas ensemble as opposed to an actual rock band (er.. a rather large rock band).
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New Zak Stevens interview! - https://myglobalmind.com/2012/01/24/exclusive-interview-with-zak-stevens-savatage-circle-ii-circle-machines-of-grace/ (https://myglobalmind.com/2012/01/24/exclusive-interview-with-zak-stevens-savatage-circle-ii-circle-machines-of-grace/)
Pretty good read, I highly recommend it to any Savatage or ZS fans.
And yes, he does talk about the possibility of a Sava reunion:
Myglobalmind: Zak I’m going to be honest with you and I get the same feedback as I’m sure you do as well many times over from Savatage fans, we need to have the band back together again, a reunion is a MUST. I know I’m not in the minority here. I know Jon has his own band and Trans Siberian Orchestra has been established to be huge and very profitable with Sava former players leading that entity, and we know that many of the members from Sava era are involved with many side projects like your own band Circle II Circle for instance, Caffery’s solo stuff etc, but I personally feel that is time to bring back Savatage!!! What are the chances? I know you have said in the past that you’re not opposed to that idea? What’s holding things back?
ZS: As far the question goes, I obviously don’t have too much control in the overall decisions on that stuff obviously. Of course those decisions will ultimately fall to Jon Oliva and Paul O’Neill and it’s hard to know exactly how they feel about the subject as time rolls on here unless you ask them personally I suppose. But yes I’m definitely not opposed to the idea and as a matter of fact I’ve always stated that i would love to take part in such a reunion if it ever came to be, most definitely. And the organization knows this so my position is no surprise to anyone by now of course. Like a lot of bands that have had reunions, it’s the fans that ultimately can make things happen more than they probably know. So if the consensus continues with the vigor in which you have stated, then I think it may naturally occur at some point. I would say to the fans if you want it then let your voices be heard to Jon and Paul and let them hear your concerns. And maybe this will all work out someday. But it would be a lot of fun to do that for sure. We’ll see what happens I guess but I believe fate has a way of working things out, I really do.
Zak has said he is up for it, as has Caffery and Middleton. C'mon, Jon, you know the only way you'll ever stop hearing people bitch about a Savatage reunion is to give the fans what they want!
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That would rule!!!
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So I was having a conversation about Savatage over at anybodylistening.net (Samsara's Queensryche forum), and I was discussing how I would "fix" Fight For The Rock:
The album is hardly pure garbage, but it is very haphazard an stylistically inconsistent, suffering from too much label interference, and it lacks a lot of strong, original material. Out of the ten songs on the album, two of them are covers and three of them (Out On The Streets, Crying For Your Love, and Lady In Disguise) are remakes of older Savatage songs, the original versions of which were better in the first place. There are a few gems on there; Edge of Midnight is a personal favourite of mine and Hyde is great. The title track, She's Only Rock And Roll, and Red Light Paradise are all ok, solid 80's rock but nothing spectacular.
What shocks me is that the band had two other great songs (The Message, and No More Saturday Nights) left over from Power of the Night that were not used on the album. Imagine if FFTR looked like this:
1) Fight For The Rock
2) The Message
3) Fighting For Your Love (Original version of Crying For Your Love)
4) Edge of Midnight
5) Hyde
6) Lady In Disguise (original version)
7) She's Only Rock and Roll
8 ) No More Saturday Nights
9) Red Light Paradise
Take that track-listing, and maybe give a more hard metal edge to FFTR, SORAR and RLP, and you would have a solid 80's metal record worthy of Savatage. Ahhhh, what could have been..........
I think that would make a great record. I've been listening to it that way recently, and it actually works very well. I'm curious to see what other people may think.
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I really like FFTR, it was just a fairly big change in sound from Power of the Night. This might have turned off some people who were expecting pure metal. Couple of songs on there that are pretty sub par though. But then again, Savatage were never a band that stayed with one sound.
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I really like FFTR, it was just a fairly big change in sound from Power of the Night. This might have turned off some people who were expecting pure metal. Couple of songs on there that are pretty sub par though. But then again, Savatage were never a band that stayed with one sound.
I definitely don't hate the record, it's nowhere near as bad as some say it is, but the fact that it has two cover tracks and a reused song from their first album always irritated me. I don't like it when bands include cover tune or re-record old songs and then include them on a proper album. That's why I have gotten in the habit of skipping Out On The Streets and replacing the two covers with The Message and No More Saturday Nights, as well as using the original versions of Fighting For Your Love and Lady In Disguise.
The rest of the album is fine as is, though, and Edge Of Midnight is probably my favourite pre-HOTMK Sava-track. :metal
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I saw TSO live last Saturday. Absolutely amazing show. They played Beethoven's Last Night in it's entirety, then followed up with an encore of a couple songs from Night Castle, a couple songs from their upcoming rock opera Gutter Ballet, and Savatage's Chance. Chris, Al, Johnny and Jeff were all spot on and really brought their best to the stage that night, and all the singers were phenomenal. And, of course, the light show was mind-blowing. Truly, just a kick-ass experience all around. :metal:
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Was JSS singing this time?
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Sorry disregard, saw that you listed Jeff
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Jeff Scott Soto singing in TSO, I had no idea, that would be magic.
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I could only imagine how awesome all of the TSO studio discs would be if all the vocals were shared between Zak and JSS
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Actually, the Jeff I was referring to was Jeff Plate.
Unfortunately, JSS was not there this year. The part of Mephistopheles was played by Ronny Munroe. He did a damn good job sounding like how Jon sounds on the album.
And yes, I would love to hear Zak singing leads more often in TSO. I've always felt that his voice was perfect for it, and since the whole TSO sound evolved from Zak-era Savatage anyways, it just seemed natural for him to be the man fronting TSO. I know in recent interviews he has mentioned that he would like to get more involved in TSO, so I have my hopes that we could see him on stage with them very soon.
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Zak's always been the voice I like to hear on TSO, I guess listening to Dead Winter Dead about a billion times is the reason behind that. I would love to hear JSS on cd with TSO though. He hasn't been on any studio cd's has he? I haven't followed them for a few years.
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The only TSO album he is on is Night Castle. He sings leads on Night Castle, Another Way You Can Die, Dreams We Conceive, Time Floats On, and The Safest Way Into Tomorrow (Reprise).
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Sweet, I'll have to get that one.
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Sweet, I'll have to get that one.
You should, it's the most rockin' of the TSO albums, and has a few tracks that are remakes of Sava-songs, so it's a bit of a treat for Savatage fans. The second disc does drag a bit in the middle, but over all, it is a great album, and despite being two hours long, I find it a bit more digestible then the Christmas albums.
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DM, have you heard when the new Circle II Circle disc comes out? I thought I heard this summer but just wondering if you heard different
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Sweet, I'll have to get that one.
You should, it's the most rockin' of the TSO albums, and has a few tracks that are remakes of Sava-songs, so it's a bit of a treat for Savatage fans. The second disc does drag a bit in the middle, but over all, it is a great album, and despite being two hours long, I find it a bit more digestible then the Christmas albums.
Wow, sounds excellent, will definitely get it.
DM, have you heard when the new Circle II Circle disc comes out? I thought I heard this summer but just wondering if you heard different
Hopefully soon, IMO, the last one was incredible.
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DM, have you heard when the new Circle II Circle disc comes out? I thought I heard this summer but just wondering if you heard different
Well, the last thing I heard about the new album was from about a month ago, right after they finished their Brazil tour, they said they were still working on it. Considering that they have a bunch of dates planned in Europe over the summer, I'm guessing that at this point a fall or winter release would be more likely. I have high hopes for that record, as I really like CIIC. The first two records were almost like a new Savatage, especially considering that they had both Jon and Chris on them, and the three that Zak made almost on his own were all excellent as well.
That interview I posted with Zak in this thread a little while back had a few comments about the new album:
Of course “Seasons Will Fall” will be as different as all the other CIIC albums have been individually. I think there are some nice surprises on this one. This will be our sixth album and I think the band is just now coming into its own as everyone will see in the next five years, especially. We’re really excited about the new album and it may just be the first released on my own label for a change but we haven’t quite decided on that fully as of yet. But we will let you know as soon as we find out!
This is really an epic record in all proportions musically. There are the 8-minute epic songs, some really good hard metal tunes, and also some nice traditional hard rock/metal that CIIC is known for. There will be really strong melodies across the board vocally and I’ll be bringing back some of that counter-point vocal stuff for all of you who like that stuff. Really it’s a deep, dark, hard rocking album but it still keep a nice melodic edge and it has some really strong radio-ready stuff on there too. I really think it’s going to be our strongest CIIC album we’ve ever released.
Sounds like good shit to me! :metal
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Amazing, I can't wait.
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Earlier I made another one of my music countdowns on Youtube, and this time I listed my favorite 25 songs from Savatage. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrIrUVHZnZg
I know I left off a few major classics but there was just so much excellent material to choose from! :metal
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Never heard of this band until I saw them on Dr.DTVT's thread. I'm listening to, and enjoying, Streets: A Rock Opera right now.
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Never heard of this band until I saw them on Dr.DTVT's thread. I'm listening to, and enjoying, Streets: A Rock Opera right now.
Awesome on two fronts: My list is working, and we have a new 'tage fan. Plenty more 'tage to discover padawan.
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Never heard of this band until I saw them on Dr.DTVT's thread. I'm listening to, and enjoying, Streets: A Rock Opera right now.
Easily one of the best concept albums of all time in my book. Hell, make that one of the best albums of all time, period! (It's in my top 4).
You should check out more of their albums. They never made the same record twice, and every album from 1987's Hall Of The Mountain King onward is a masterpiece unto itself! :metal
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Went for a walk today and was jumping around my Savatage catalogue on my MP3 player. I made up a pretty awesome setlist that would have made a great concert.
Overture (Dead Winter Dead)
Taunting Cobras
Edge Of Thorns
Stay With Me A While
There In The Silence
Morning Sun
Jesus Saves
Tonight He Grins Again
All That I Bleed
Mozart And Madness
The Wake Of Magellan
Chance
Gutter Ballet
Believe
Hall Of The Mountain King
It's a bit too short to be a full headlining set, but seriously, what a kick as setlist that would be! :metal
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I love the 1-2 hit from Poets and Madman, I love that album. Tonight He Grins Again is top 10 Savatage too, good set there.
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I'm not sure how I missed this, but this article was apparently posted back in February. I'm a little surprised that it hasn't been reported anywhere else:
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/upcoming_tours/savatage_plan_reunion_tour.html (https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/upcoming_tours/savatage_plan_reunion_tour.html)
In short, some Russian booking agency is trying to get Savatage to play a couple of shows in Russia (Moscow and St. Petersburg). Apparently, Savatage wants 10,000 votes on a petition before they agree to do it. If this does happen, I may have to beg and plead with my girlfriend's family (who is Russian) if there is some cheap way to get there. I would give anything to see this band paying a full show as Savatage again, even if it meant traveling halfway around the world.
Additionally, this has sparked a thought in my mind: if enough people were to sign a petition, would they consider doing this in the states? Seriously, I see no reason why this band cannot play a few shows in select cities (New York, Chicago, LA, and perhaps 3 or 4 others), and perhaps do the same for Europe, South America and the Asian Rim. I'm talking a world tour that would last less then two months. If it is even a remote possibility, it will be the fans that have to make it happen Considering the fact that more fans continue to discover Savatage through TSO, and the capability of the internet to exponentially increase the awareness of an otherwise unknown band, I would not be surprised if Savatage has more fans now, during their absence, then they did back at their height in the early 90's.
I've been listening to a lot of late-era Savatage recently, and I'm starting to realize that there really is no true substitute for Savatage. For the past few years, I have tried to cope by giving an interest in the various projects of the members of Savatage, but while TSO, JOP, CIIC, & the CC Band all have elements of Savatage, no single one of them really captures every aspect of what that band once was. We really need this band back, even if it is something that only happens once every few years. It is a damn shame this band choose to quit while they were in the middle of a renaissance, and it is a tragedy that they have not continued to develop their legacy. All their side projects are fine, but the real Savatage needs to make a resurgence now. The time is right, and we should find some way to get our opinions to Paul and Jon and make this happen!
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Nobody deserves to see Savatage live more than the Dark Master!!
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Nobody deserves to see Savatage live more than the Dark Master!!
Damn straight!
Found another great interview with Zak from January: https://www.legendaryrockinterviews.com/2012/01/15/legendary-rock-interview-with-vocalist-zak-stevens-circle-ii-circle-savatage-tso/ (https://www.legendaryrockinterviews.com/2012/01/15/legendary-rock-interview-with-vocalist-zak-stevens-circle-ii-circle-savatage-tso/)
He said a few interesting things about TSO and it's effect on Savatage:
LRI: I have to ask. With the entire catalog being remastered and the DVD/hits package out what would you say to putting SAVATAGE back together for another album or at least some special show dates?
ZS: Yeah, definitely John. People have been obviously asking me that question for a long time and the guys in the band know my stance on that. I am always in favor of SAVATAGE doing any type of project. I would love to do it again just for all the memories and to be able to look across the stage and see the guys again. It would be unbelievable after all these years and of course the fans would just love it. I don’t know how much of a chance there is of that happening because I don’t know all of that inside business and the talk of how that’s going as much as Paul or Jon do.
LRI: Chris Caffery has told me that despite the success of TSO he misses SAVATAGE
ZS: I know, as do I. We talked about it about a short while ago on the phone and it’s funny (laughs)…….It seems to me that every time we play a show as TSO it makes it that SAVATAGE is a little bit further and further from going away completely so it’s actually working the opposite as some people might believe (laughs). The funny thing is I would LOVE to do it, they can depend on me for that, hopefully something like that could work out someday like you said, even if it were for a few little things it would be a lot of fun. There is not a question whatsoever about whether I would do it and they know that. It would only take ONE phone call and I’m in.
That basically confirms what I said above: TSO is increasing awareness of the Savatage legacy. I know TSO has been playing more Sava songs over the years, and it sound like they're gonna start dipping deeper into the Savatage catalogue in the future. On the 2012 spring tour and the 2011 winter tour, I saw a few more 'Tage shirts then I did in previous years, and overheard a number of conversations about Savatage. One guy at the spring show even yelled out "Play Hall Of The Mountain King!" toward the end of the show (interestingly, that was only a song or two before they played Chance). Personally, I would be pretty satisfied if TSO played a Savatage set for the second half of their shows on the spring tour, as long as they get Jon and Zak on stage with them. I hope they keep pushing Savatage through TSO, because the more TSO fans discover Savatage, the more of a demand there will be for a Savatage reunion, and sooner we may actually see a full-on Savatage show! :metal
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Also big on Savatage :hefdaddy Edge of Thorns is the album I revisit the most. My favorites are Sirens, the EP The Dungeons Are Calling, Streets and Edge of Thorns.
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After quite some listens this week, Poets and Madmen has now officially entered my Top 50 - something that no other Savatage album has managed. I just love Jon Oliva's vocal delivery on this album, and it has some of Savatage's best songs, like There In The Silence, Comissar, Morphine Child and Sleep.
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Uhh, Sleep is on Edge of Thorns.
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An acoustic version is on Poets and Madmen as well, as a bonus track.
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Poets and Madmen is my third favourite album behind Streets and Gutter Ballet. I really wished Oliva would continue with Savatage in that direction. Tage Mahal and Maniacal Renderings were good but still not on the same quality. And the other JOP albums don't do anything for me.
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An acoustic version is on Poets and Madmen as well, as a bonus track.
Hmm..my version doesn't have that, you must have a re-release.
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Yeah, it's a 2011 re-release that I got for 5€.
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Does it have Shotgun Innocence?
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Nope. Tracklist is the following:
Stay With Me Awhile
There In The Silence
Comissar
I Seek Power
Drive
Morphine Child
The Rumor
Man in the Mirror
Surrender
Awaken
Back to a Reason
Tonight He Grins Again (acoustic)
Sleep (acoustic)
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Damn, Tonight he Grins acoustic, what's that like?
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It's pretty cool - I don't know the original though, so I have no comparison.
EDIT: Just listened to the original on Spotify, and I actually like the acoustic version a little better.
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The version of Poets that I had bought had a bonus track of Shotgun Innocence. How this song never made a regular version of any album is strange.
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Is it a good song?
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Yeah I love it. Check it out, I'm sure it's on youtube. I remember they released a Import best of many years ago and it was included on that. It was also a bonus track on one version of Poets and some version of Edge of Thorns I believe. Great song.
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Hmm... not that great, tbh. It sounds a little too... glammy for my tastes, I guess. Not that that's bad, but I like the rest of P&MM far more, and this is a totally different musical direction.
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I also think Poets and Madmen is one of the best Savatage albums. As far as the acoustic version of "Sleep" goes, I have it as a bonus track on my Wake of Magellan CD, as well as "Somewhere in Time/Alone You Breathe" and "Stay", all sung by Oliva.
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Shotgun Innocence was originally a bonus track from Edge of Thorns, and was recorded during those sessions. So the fact that it's Chris playing should mean something.
That also explains why it's *a bit* glammy sounding...even though that album is definitely a cut above most glam albums, it does have a touch of that feel to it.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCPMBKED1hU
Circle II Circle performing Wake of Magellan.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCPMBKED1hU
Circle II Circle performing Wake of Magellan.
Awesome! Thanks for posting it! :metal
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Wow, that video was amazing, thanks for sharing! I obviously have to do a much better job in keeping up with Circle II Circle. I am so jealous of everyone at that show!
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Yeah, I've watched a few songs from that vid and they are doing a pretty decent job actually. Circle II Circle are releasing a 2CD best of for anyone looking to get into them.
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Just got that best of last week, great selection. Includes some b-sides and live tracks.
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Just got that best of last week, great selection. Includes some b-sides and live tracks.
Yeah, I've ordered it for that. How do the tracks sound, are they remastered? Do the tracks from the last two albums sound better than what they did on the originals?
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It's all remastered but I didnt notice a huge difference. Got it mostly for the rare tracks; which are all very good
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Fair enough, that's the reason I'm getting it too.
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I listened to the acoustic version of Tonight He Grins Again. It's nice, definitely has it's own feel, I'm glad it's not a 1:1 copy but with acoustic guitars. But I still prefer the original.
Oliva's low, deep voice is SO GOOD, though.
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New Jon Oliva Intervew!!!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6IurOYcyEA&feature=fvwrel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6IurOYcyEA&feature=fvwrel)
If I'm not mistaken, this is his first full interview since the tragic passing of JOP guitarist Matt LaProte last year. He talks quite a bit about this history of Savatage, the 25th anniversary European tour of HOTMK, the upcoming TSO rock opera Romanov, the current status of Savatage, and the future of JOP. There's some cool shit in there; his ideas for an Avantasia style JOP record sound really interesting, and for the first time in nearly 5 years, his discussion of the possibilities of a future Savatage project is not entirely bleak (although it still sounds like it still won't be happening anytime soon). Definitely a mandatory listen for any fans of the Mountain King's various works! :metal
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Just listened to P&M again, and I have to say that Morphine Child is the best them. :metal :metal
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Sucks that he doesn't keep his voice in shape, though. So much drinking and smoking and it's still so strong, what if...
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Just listened to P&M again, and I have to say that Morphine Child is the best them. :metal :metal
P&M has sort of become the "lost" Savatage classic in my opinion. Such a strong album, but given the predominant direction of the band at the time, as well as the loss of Zak and Al, upon release most fans and critics dismissed it as a contrived attempt by the newer TSO-esque Savatage to make a classic metal 'Tage album (a la what Metallica would later do with Death Magnetic) and I really feel that such an assessment does not give the record it's due credit. Furthermore, the fact that the album ended up sounding rather different then what Jon, Paul and Chris had originally intended due to Zak's departure seems to have led the band themselves to overlook the record as something as a disappointment in the years since, which I think is a shame. I can certainly understand why they would feel that way, and I imagine that Zak's vocals, as well as the tracks that were cut when he left, probably would have fleshed out the album more and given it a more well rounded Savatage feel, rather then giving the impression of 'Tage-2001 trying to sound like 'Tage-1989. Even so, I feel the album is still a masterpiece in it's own right, and it is probably the most criminally underrated album of the band's career, not just by the masses, but also by the band themselves.
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P&M is a great album...one of my favorites. Just listened to it today actually.
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P&M is a great album...one of my favorites. Just listened to it today actually.
It's an amazing record, no question. I remember when I first heard it I was pleasantly surprised by it's heaviness and raw aggression of Caffery's riffs, and the return of Jon as a full time vocalist was a highlight too. In fact, I would argue that in his effort to make up for the loss of Zak, in combination with the vocal training he took after he lost his voice in '92, his performances on P&M are among his most varied and impressive of his entire career, nearly on par with his material from the Gutter Ballet/Streets era.
With that said, within the context of the greater Savatage/TSO discography, the album does sound very outside of the proper sequence of time and space. On the one hand, the very riff based nature of the album and the fact that Jon is the only singer is reminiscent of "classic" era 'Tage (1981-1992). On the other hand, though, the album has many attributes that are very distinctly post-Handful Of Rain era 'Tage: Criss Oliva's absence is very noticeable (Caffery makes up for this, of course, but he has his own style which is distinct from that of Criss Oliva's), many of the song structures themselves are much more typical of post-1994 Savatage (counterpoint vocals in Morphine Child, the end section of Surrender, pretty much all of Back To A Reason, to name a few), and the fact that Paul wrote all of the album's lyrics and vocal melodies is also rather obvious, which is another distinct trait of later Savatage. As such, the album really sort of stands on it's own away from the rest of their discography. It can't really be placed with the classic era 'Tage because the lineup and writing is very different, and yet, it doesn't really fit in with later 'Tage and TSO because the vocals and the approach to music is completely separate from everything else the band has done from Dead Winter Dead onwards (the TSO albums included).
Overall, though, that just makes the album all that much more special, because it truly is a world all unto it's own, not beholden to any specific era of the band's history and simply defying attempts at classification with the greater Savatage legacy.
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My tattoo. A bit faded now but you can just about read that the motto is "Silk & Steel".
Chris was a great player.
(https://i.imgur.com/TAh3z.jpg)
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That's incredible.
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That's incredible.
The guy that did it had a beautiful blue Paul Reed Smith guitar that he let me have a go on, so as a guitar lover himself he enjoyed doing it. A weird coincidence, I now work with his wife.
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That is very cool!
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Bumping to say that Savatage kick some serious ass, and that Morphine Child is one of my favourite songs ever written. SO ENAGEE, SO POWAH!!! :metal
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I know its been said before in this thread, but I would really hope to see one final Savatage album. Preferably with both Jon and Zak on vocals. I think that would make Dark M very happy too.
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The day a new Savatage album is released, I will immediately cum in my pants......
In all seriousness, one of the most frustrating things about the whole situation is simply knowing that this band has so much more to say and do creatively, and they now have the resources to do whatever the fuck they want, yet they just choose not to do it. JOP, CIIC, Chris Caffery band, Machines of Grace....... There is so much Sava-esque stuff being made out there by ex-members, it's ridiculous. And there is actually a demand for the band, too. Jon already plays more Savatage songs at his solo gigs then his JOP material, and Zak recently has been doing his special Savatage Sets with CIIC, most notably the anniversary performance of TWOM. And there are a plethora of Savatage tribute bands out there as well; there are at least two of them in Chicago alone!
Fortunately, I think there is at least the possibility that we could be seeing some sort of Savatage performances again. Zak has even said that the more popular TSO becomes, the more of a demand there is to see some sort of Savatage show, and all these solo bands and side projects just push the original band's legacy even further into the spotlight. Really, I would not be surprised if between the popularity of TSO and the accessibility of the internet if Savatage has more fans now then they did back at their peak in the early and mid 90's. The band even almost made a Savatage reunion part of the TSO spring tour back in 2010 before Jon had to drop out due to family issues. Considering that even TSO themselves are playing more Savatage material recently then before, I think there is a very good chance that seeing Savatage play again in some form or another, is a very real possibility. It may not happen tomorrow, but with all the hype surrounding their legend fueled by their ongoing side projects, I think some sort of out-of-retirement show for Savatage is inevitable.
The main issue, though, is I think we still have quite a while before there is another actual Savatage album, mostly because Paul is so wrapped up in TSO, he simply doesn't have time to work on a new Savatage record, and whether I like it or not, Savatage is just not Savatage without Paul. JOP has shown what Jon can do on his own, and while excellent in it's own right, I don't think Jon's solo works are really worthy of the Savatage name. There is a certain epic scope to Savatage's works that JOP simply lacks, both in the music and in the lyrics, and there is just something about the Savatage records themselves that make them somehow seem bigger then JOP. No offense to Jon, of course, the man is a genius, but I really think the main reason why doesn't just call JOP Savatage is because he knows that he can't make a Savatage record without Paul.
Of course, that works both ways. TSO shows what Paul will make when he has total creative control, and while TSO is impressive in it's own right, it lacks the heart, the soul, and the sheer balls that Savatage had. Even Dead Winter Dead, that most symphonic of Savatage records which directly gave birth to TSO, had a certain bite to it that TSO just does not possess, and I think that is due to the fact that Jon and Savatage are more of sidemen to Paul in TSO, unlike the true partnership Paul and Jon had on the Savatage records. TSO is Savatage-lite, with a bigger and "better" spectacle, but lacking a certain substance and depth that the original band could muster.
Anyways, Paul says he has three TSO albums in the works: Romanov (which should be out next year), Gutter Ballet (which will remake the Streets story and have a lot of music borrowed from GB, Streets, EOT and HOR), and an as of yet unnamed third record. Despite all of this, I hope that at some point he and Jon make some time to do a new Savatage record, because I think the band that started it all really deserves one last chance in the spotlight. One more album (promoted though any media available to the band, including TSO), and a massive tour to support it, and trust me, Savatage will make a bigger, more direct impact on the metal world then they already have. And if the album and tour is successful enough, maybe, just maybe, they will consider keeping Savatage up and running for a whole new generation of fans that never had a chance to experience the band back in it's heyday, but are just now discovering Savatage for themselves.
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I don't think anybody on earth could have said it better.
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Great post Dark Master. i didn't know about the upcoming Gutter Ballet project, should be interesting.
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Thanks guys! :D
And yea, the TSO adaptation of Gutter Ballet should be awesome. They have been previewing a couple songs from it over the past couple years, Someday and Child Unseen, the latter of which borrows from a little piece of Savatage history you may find interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPrPaQcp63k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPrPaQcp63k)
It sounds like it's gonna be bad ass! :metal
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If anyone is interested, Savatage just launched a new merch site: https://savatage.shop.bravadousa.com/ (https://savatage.shop.bravadousa.com/)
They only have a few t-shirts up so far, but I would expect that they will put up more stuff soon. In the meantime, these shirts look pretty nice. I've already got a DWD shirt, but I may want to get one of these, too, just for variety's sake, as well as to show my love for the band.
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I like that metallic red one.
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So with it being the season for TSO, I'm bumping this thread. TSO will be playing The Lost Christmas Eve in it's entirety on their winter tour this year. Even though I'm not a huge fan of their Christmas works (a tad saccharine and commercial for my tastes) I do like TLCE the most of the three X-mas records, so it should be a pretty fun show, and a nice change-up from their usual winter tour setlists.
Also, TSO has released a five song EP called Dreams Of Fireflies (On A Christmas Night). The band has posted the entire EP is on youtube, so go check it out. Still no official release date yet for Romanov, but at this point I would guess they plan on releasing it to coincide with their 2013 spring tour (March/April).
On the JOP front, Jon Oliva has said that he would like to take his song writing clinic from ProgPower on the road across the US sometime next year, so any fans of old-school Savatage and JOP should check that out if it comes near them (I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a Chicago or Milwaukee date). He says he will be playing unreleased and upcoming material, so it should be a very cool and unique look into all the madness that goes into the Mountain King's creative process.
Jon also did this interview back in Aug that I forgot to post: https://getreadytorock.me.uk/blog/2012/08/jon-olivas-pain-jon-oliva-interview-2/ (https://getreadytorock.me.uk/blog/2012/08/jon-olivas-pain-jon-oliva-interview-2/). While some of it is a retread of the last JO interview I posted, he has some very interesting new things to talk about. Among other things, he talks quite a bit about Matt's passing, and unfortunately, it looks like the JOP live DVD will not be happening.
Lastly, Circle II Circle finally announced a release date for the new album! Seasons Will Fall should be out in February 2013. Looking forward to this one quite a bit :metal
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Really looking forward to the new CIIC also, the last one was great.
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Really looking forward to the new CIIC also, the last one was great.
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Really looking forward to the new CIIC also, the last one was great.
Ya know, you guys have tried, but every CIIC I've had a listen to, I was 'meh' about. They just don't do anything to float my boat.
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Really looking forward to the new CIIC also, the last one was great.
Ya know, you guys have tried, but every CIIC I've had a listen to, I was 'meh' about. They just don't do anything to float my boat.
I find that surprising in the sense that I know you are a big fan of TSO. Zak Stevens era Savatage and CIIC just seem to go hand in hand with TSO for me.
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Really looking forward to the new CIIC also, the last one was great.
Ya know, you guys have tried, but every CIIC I've had a listen to, I was 'meh' about. They just don't do anything to float my boat.
I find that surprising in the sense that I know you are a big fan of TSO. Zak Stevens era Savatage and CIIC just seem to go hand in hand with TSO for me.
As I recall, I liked the music plenty, but vocally (and I can't remember which tracks/albums I tried), it was a big bag of 'meh'.
:dunno:
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I think something one has to bear in mind with CIIC is that it is, by default, Zak's solo band. Even though Jon Oliva and Chris Caffery co-wrote some tracks on the first couple CIIC records, it was still primarily Zak who was coming up with the music and lyrics. I remember in an interview from around the time the first CIIC album came out, he was talking about how it was an interesting experience for him to be in the driver's seat creatively for a change, with Chris and Jon really just sort of helping him flesh out ideas. By contrast, he noted that in Savatage and TSO, he contributed very little in the songwriting department because all the writing was done by Jon and Paul, with the various guitarists (C. Oliva, Caffery and Pitrelli) contributing bits here and there. Zak said he didn't mind that arrangement because Jon and Paul gave him such good material to sing, and in fact singing Jon and Paul's songs inspired him to write his own.
However, there is a very clear distinction between Zak's writing style and Jon/Paul's. Classical and Broadway aren't quite as big of an influence on Zak as they are on the other guys; he likes writing much more straight forward hard rock and heavy metal songs, so for his own records, he adjusts his singing style accordingly. I really don't think there is anything wrong with how he sings on the CIIC records. Granted, it's not quite as creative from a melodic viewpoint as Savatage or TSO, but it works with the CIIC material. I guess it's just a difference of hard rock/heavy metal vs progressive/ symphonic rock/metal.
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Really looking forward to the new CIIC also, the last one was great.
Ya know, you guys have tried, but every CIIC I've had a listen to, I was 'meh' about. They just don't do anything to float my boat.
Have you tried Burden of Truth?
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Really looking forward to the new CIIC also, the last one was great.
Ya know, you guys have tried, but every CIIC I've had a listen to, I was 'meh' about. They just don't do anything to float my boat.
Have you tried Burden of Truth?
Don't think so - and don't bitch at me... yes I know you've recommended it before. It's on the 'later' list. I've tried Watching in Silence, and Delusions of Grandeur.
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Burden of Truth is without question my favorite from CIIC and I think their best release overall. That's where I would start
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Burden of Truth is without question my favorite from CIIC and I think their best release overall. That's where I would start
This Chad......this.
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Burden Of Truth was the album where Zak really came into his own as a songwriter. While he certainly was the primary creative mastermind behind the first two CIIC albums as well, he wore his Savatage influences on his sleeves a bit more, which was reinforced by the contributions from Oliva and Caffery on those records as well. BOT was where Zak started to step out of the shadows of Jon, Paul and Chris and really started to make a name for himself as a composer, not just as a singer, and it was the album where CIIC became a band in it's own right, and not just Savatage Jr.
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Burden of Truth is without question my favorite from CIIC and I think their best release overall. That's where I would start
This Chad......this.
Allrighty, it was much better than the other two CIIC albums I listened to. Still not totally wow'd - vocals being the weak point. But, it didn't suck. :D
Still got WWWAAAAYYYYY too much other stuff to work through before I give this any serious repeat listens.
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Anyone getting the new TSO next week, Dreams of Fireflies. Its only an EP, but from what Ive heard, its pretty good.
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Anyone getting the new TSO next week, Dreams of Fireflies. Its only an EP, but from what Ive heard, its pretty good.
I've already heard it, and it was pretty damn good. The title track and Winter Palace were both solid instrumentals (Even if the title cut does borrow from Mozart's Magic Flute, which they already did with Queen Of The Winter Night on The Lost Christmas Eve). I think Winter Palace is another track from their upcoming Romanov rock opera, but I'm not certain. Regardless, it is probably my favourite song on the EP. Someday is from the upcoming Gutter Ballet rock opera, this time with Tim Huckaby on vox. I like his voice a lot, but I thought Kayla Reeve and Dari Mahnic were both better suited for the song based on their performances of it on the past few TSO tours. I Had A Memory is a pretty rocking gospel inspired track, and easily my favourite vocal song on the EP. Time You Should Be Sleeping is a pretty standard TSO ballad in the vein of BLN's A Final Dream or TLCE's Midnight Clear, but a rather good one none the less.
All things considered, it's a solid 5 song EP. If I am to take it as a preview of what to expect from Romanov and Gutter Ballet (which is what I think it is), then I am all the more eager for both of those albums to finally get released. :metal
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DM, is Gutter Ballet an upcoming full length disc or show from TSO? Is it all Christmas related? I agree, the title track and winter palace are solid instrumentals from the EP
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DM, is Gutter Ballet an upcoming full length disc or show from TSO? Is it all Christmas related? I agree, the title track and winter palace are solid instrumentals from the EP
Paul has said that both Gutter Ballet and Romanov will be released as TSO albums, but there also seem to be plans beyond that to make both of the projects into something more. At one point Paul commented that he wants to take both projects (and maybe Beethoven's Last Night, as well) to Broadway, but he has also said that most Broadway venues would not be fully capable of bringing his vision for these rock operas to life. I guess that was part of the reason why Romanov got put on the back burner for so long, and the band concentrated on other albums to build up the popularity of TSO first.
Earlier this year, Paul made a post on the TSO website about the constant evolution of the band and how they are finally reaching the point where they can do the things they have really wanted to do from the beginning, and how the band will continue to develop into what he calls "Rock Theater". I think he may intend to just have TSO do the full on Broadway versions of these shows themselves, which was part of the reason behind the TSO spring tours, to establish TSO as a live act beyond the Christmas season, and to establish Paul and Jon's long held ambitions of making TSO/Savatage into a sort of self-contained symphonic progressive heavy metal Broadway phemomina.
Beyond all that, Jon said in one of those recent interviews I posted that Paul also talked about making a Romanov animated movie as well, so it seems that the possibilities of what could be done with these albums are really endless. No matter what, though it seems like both the band and the record label are just focused on getting the albums out first, and then deciding what to do with them beyond that later.
For me, the big question is when. Last summer (2012), Jon said Romanov should be out in the next year or so, and they also said the 2012 spring tour will be the last BLN show for a while, so I am hoping that means the Spring 2013 tour will be the first Romanov tour, and the record for Romanov will be out around March/April next year. However, Jon had also said that Night Castle would be out in 2007, so his track record of predicting TSO release dates is not exactly reliable. Paul refuses to comment on when Romanov or Gutter will finally be released because:https://somethingelsereviews.com/2012/02/15/something-else-interview-trans-siberian-orchestras-paul-oneill/ (https://somethingelsereviews.com/2012/02/15/something-else-interview-trans-siberian-orchestras-paul-oneill/)
I’ve learned my lesson after Night Castle (after the album was delayed for years, expanding into a two-disc concept piece) to not make any promises about when they’ll be out.
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Like usual, outstanding Savatage answer DM.
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Like usual, outstanding Savatage answer DM.
Thank you :D I generally try to keep myself informed of all happenings in the Savatage, partially because the guys, especially Jon, always have interesting things to say in interviews, and partially also because if/when any sort of Savatage event takes place, I want to be the first to know ;). Recently, I've been keeping an eye out for Paul O'Neill interviews more then I have in the past, since I am eagerly awaiting the next two TSO albums.
Also, I re-read over that interview I linked to in my last post, and this little exchange caught my eye: FRED PHILLIPS: A lot of the musicians in TSO shuffle in and out, leaving for other projects and coming back. How does that affect things?
PAUL O’NEILL: People are allowed to come and go in TSO. I always ask the young kids if they could be doing anything, what would it be? Katrina Chester told me that her whole life she’d wanted to do a Broadway show about Janis Joplin. When “Love, Janis” held auditions, she asked if she could try out and if she didn’t get the part, if she could come back. I told her not only can you audition, but I’ll get you a publicist and make some phone calls for you. We’ve been very lucky with the talent that’s come on board. I want to allow the band to breathe. I never want it to become just a job. I tell everyone on that stage that some people who come to see us have plenty of money, and it’s no big deal, but for some people that come to see us, that’s their only entertainment of the year. We don’t have the right to not give them the very best show that we can.
This is something that has bothered me about the whole Savatage situation for a while now. If Paul is so cool with musicians coming and going from TSO at a whim, it really makes me wonder what exactly is preventing Savatage from going out and playing some shows. I mean, TSO has so many musicians on tap for their touring companies, and outside of the Christmas season, they only use one anyways, so what really is stopping Savatage from touring in the summer? I can understand if Jon wants to wait for Paul to do another Savatage album, since Paul was such a crucial part of the songwriting in Savatage, but honestly, what is truly stopping Jon, Zak, Chris, Al (or Alex), Johnny and Jeff (or Doc) from just going out and doing a short summer tour? It just seems to me (and Caffery has implied this in interviews) that Savatage really could tour if they wanted to, but for what ever reason Jon simply refuses to do so.
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If the rest of the band wants to do it, they should go out in the summer without Jon and Paul being on board. I can see it being a minor success and hopefully Jon and Paul come around in the future and realize there is abit of a demand for Savatage.
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I think Jon has exclusive rights to the name "Savatage", so I don't think they could technically tour as such without his approval. There is always the outside chance that he would let them do the tour without him, but somehow I doubt it. I do think, though, that it would be very likely to have Zak, Chris, Al, Johnny, Jeff and some keyboardist (preferably John Zahner, since he has a lot of experience playing Sava-songs in Savatage, CIIC and JOP) do something similar to the Weapons Of Mass Destruction show at ProgPowerUSA '04. Just a bunch of "Tage members playing Savatage songs live, but under a different name. Caffery actually does a pretty good Jon Oliva style of singing and he knows the songs like the back of his hand, so he could sing the JO vocal parts live. If it was successful, it may show Jon that there is a demand out there for a proper Savatage tour, and not just TSO, JOP, CIIC, CC, MOG or whatever playing Savatage songs as part of their sets,and finally motivate Jon and Paul to get the guys together and write another Savatage album. Such a tour would be all sorts of :metal :metal :metal :metal If it ever happens, I will be the first person to have front row seats for the Chicago or Milwaukee show (although for a tour like that, I may need to see it more then once anyways ;) )
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So, according to the JOP facebook, Jon's new album will be released as a straight up solo record, and not as a JOP record.
NEW RECORD SPRING 2013:
-----------------------
Good day one and all,
We thank you all for your patience with regards to
announcing our new recording plans.
While JOP is very much intact and focused on new music and
future touring...JON OLIVA will release his first ever solo record in early 2013.
Jon has assembled a collection of ideas from the past 4-5 years and wants the opportunity to present them as his own work. Jon will be recording nearly all the instrument tracks and vocals himself and also playing drums on several tracks. Once again, I have the honor of recording the bulk of the drum tracks on the new cd, but this record will have been created from start to finish with Jon being completely
at the helm.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Oliva: "I’ve got some weird ideas that I wanna try and I’ve got some time to do it. I don’t want do just 'another' JOP record. I’ve done four of those already. I wanna do something different. I have some material that I’ve wanted to put out for a while, that I’ll talk with the record company about, maybe putting something out quickly, like in the next four or five months, to give me more time to do this JOP record. I want the next JOP cd to be very special. I’ve got some great friends from other bands that are going to be a significant part of the next JOP release. We are going to do a killer JOP record and then an additional bonus cd with guest stars... kind of like the AVANTASIA thing but not in a story line. Tobias Sammet does a magnificent job with it, but I don’t have that much time to write a whole story, so I’ll just have some powerhouse friends from various bands come in and take it over the top."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Drum recordings begin at the legendary Morrisound Studio's in mid December. The record will be released via AFM RECORDS in the spring
of 2013.
Thank you all....new music soon!
Christopher Kinder- JOP
This is very interesting news. It seemed like after Matt's passing, JOP was thrown into some sort of limbo, and tbh, I had doubts about whether or not Jon would even want to continue the band, especially considering some of his comments in recent interviews about wanting to do something different for his next album and not wanting to make it "just another JOP record". Well it seems JOP will continue, and will do another album at some point, but for the moment, Jon wants to do a real solo record without having to release it as under the banner of any of his bands. I'm very curious to see how this turns out, and what the differences will be between this album, JOP, Savatage, and/or Doctor Butcher.
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Just received the new CIIC album in the mail and am listening to it for the first time. Anyone else checked it out yet.
First thing I can say is thank God we have some great production as opposed to the last two which really detracted from the songs. I'm only up to track 4 which is an epic 9 minute piece called Epiphany which really is incredible. So far it's familiar territory and it sounds like the record will be a bit samey but very consistent like the last one. The guitar solos are amazing.
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I'm getting it for sure, but I was going to order it when the new Saxon comes out and get them together.
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I have never listened to Savatage at all (although I do have CIIC's Burden of Truth and really like it - I realize they aren't the same band). So . . . I just ordered Edge of Thorns. Looking forward to listening to it.
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Poets and Madmen is my favourite by a long shot. The others aren't bad, but P&M has an edge, a certain roughness to it that makes it a unique record among Savatage's catalogue.
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I have never listened to Savatage at all (although I do have CIIC's Burden of Truth and really like it - I realize they aren't the same band). So . . . I just ordered Edge of Thorns. Looking forward to listening to it.
Edge of Thorns is a great place to start. Another great starting point is Hall of the Mountain King.
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I concur, Edge of Thorns is a great album to give you a taste of the 2nd half of their catalog, if you like it, you'd like pretty much all the albums after it.
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I'd say get Edge of Thorns and Gutter Ballet, that way you get a good taste of both styles of Savatage, as Jon is very different to Zak.
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I think you can get into 'tage successfully different ways. My first 'tage albums were Streets and Dead Winter Dead, and I turned out ok :biggrin:
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My first Savatage release was The Dungeons Are Calling.
I used to see them play at a roller rink back in the 80's in FL
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and I turned out ok :biggrin:
You sure? :P
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Wow, since when did this thread get updated?! I disappear for like a month and miss a 'Tage discussion?! :'(
Anyways, I really don't think there is any particular Savatage record that is the perfect introduction for everyone out there, simply because Savatage changed their style so much throughout their careers. For most people, I think the easiest Sava-album to get into is Edge Of Thorns; it's got a lot of great, radio friendly songs that are easily digestible, even for non-metal fans, and Zak's voice is very pleasant yet powerful, and has enough grace and gentility to not scare anyone off, while still having enough of an edge to appeal to the metalheads out there.
For the more metal fans, I would definitely say Hall Of The Mountain King is the record to hear first. While Sirens, Dungeons and POTN are strong and have their merits, it was on HOTMK where Savatage really started to discover themselves musically, as well as begin to branch out into a more progressive/neo-classical direction. This was my first Savatage record, and while it has not been my favourite for quite some time, I still think it is probably the best album for an introduction to the more metal side of 'Tage.
For the people discovering Savatage from TSO, I think Dead Winter Dead, The Wake Of Magellan and, to a lesser extent, Handful Of Rain are all excellent albums for an introduction into the world of 'Tage. DWD and TWOM both have that familiar TSO sound, and while they are a bit heavier then the Christmas records, anyone who could handle Beethoven's Last Night or Night Castle should be able to handle 1994-1998-era Savatage. If a TSO fan has a more metal side, then Gutter Ballet, Streets and Poets & Madmen would also be good places to start.
Also, the whole reason I came here was to post this recent Jon Oliva interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I23C4SgiChs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I23C4SgiChs). Jon talks again about his upcoming solo record, the future of JOP and even mentions the possibility of a Savatage reunion show. Definitely worth checking out!
....and no, I have not heard the new CIIC record. :'( Life's been crazy for me recently and I haven't had anytime to check out new music, so I've mostly been making do with what is familiar. I've actually been listening to a lot of Kamelot and WASP recently (strange combination, I know), but I was listening to Savatage earlier today, hence why I decided to check out the thread. I actually had forgotten about the CIIC record, but I will definitely check it out as soon as I'm able...
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so I'm listening to Hall of the Mountain King for the first time and hear "Mars" quoted in the intro to "Prelude to Madness" (which is obviously a direct reference to Gynt's INHOTMK). Loving this album so far!
:tup
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https://www.blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=188436
JON OLIVA'S PAIN and SAVATAGE mastermind Jon Oliva will release his first-ever solo album on June 5 via AFM Records. The 11-song CD, which contains ideas collected over the course of the last four or five years, was tracked this past winter at Morrisound Studios in Tampa, Florida with producer Tom Morris, with Jon handling laying down nearly all the instrument tracks and vocals himself as well as playing drums on three songs.
Commented JON OLIVA'S PAIN drummer/producer Christopher Kinder: "Oliva will be the first to admit that it took one hell of a challenge writing, performing 90% of all the tracks himself and vocals... he is exhausted, for sure."
He added: "It's a very interesting and powerful offering. Diverse, emotional, and varying styles of writing and music everywhere. A truly great accomplishment for the mountain king, indeed."
Oliva previously stated about his decision to record a solo album: "I've got some weird ideas that I wanna try and I've got some time to do it. I don't want do just 'another' JON OLIVA'S PAIN record. I've done four of those already. I wanna do something different. I have some material that I've wanted to put out for a while, that I'll talk with the record company about, maybe putting something out quickly, like in the next four or five months, to give me more time to do this JON OLIVA'S PAIN record. I want the next JON OLIVA'S PAIN CD to be very special. I've got some great friends from other bands that are going to be a significant part of the next JON OLIVA'S PAIN release. We are going to do a killer JON OLIVA'S PAIN record and then an additional bonus CD with guest stars... kind of like the AVANTASIA thing, but not in a story line. [EDGUY and AVANTASIA mastermind] Tobias Sammet does a magnificent job with it, but I don't have that much time to write a whole story, so I'll just have some powerhouse friends from various bands come in and take it over the top."
Looking forward to this.
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Yeah, this should be a good album Jon's got in the works right now. Allegedly, it uses up the last of the Criss Oliva demos left over from the early Savatage days, so in a way, this record will mark the end of an era for Jon as well as the Savatage/JOP fans. He said the solo album sounds a little bit different then Savatage or JOP, so I am very curious to see the results of the purely Jon Oliva record. I'm guessing that since he plays most of the instruments on it, we'll get a much more laid back, much less shreddy album, kinda of like most of Handful Of Rain. Anyways, I'm definately gonna have to pick this up when it drops. Any now Jon Oliva record is the next best thing to Savatage. :metal
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Will be interesting to see who's on lead guitar. I'm open to anything really, bring it on I say.
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Cool to hear. What did you guys think of the new Circle II Circle; I thought it was great. Top three from the band for me.
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It was good, but I never really gave it repeated listens. I need to get it out again.
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Cool to hear. What did you guys think of the new Circle II Circle; I thought it was great. Top three from the band for me.
I just got it the other day, but have not yet had the chance to hear it. I've been going to the gym a lot recently, though, so the next time I have a workout, I'll give it a spin.
Jon Oliva gave a new interview: https://www.hangar19radio.com/category/show-audio/ (https://www.hangar19radio.com/category/show-audio/) The first half is a lot of stuff about Jon's musical roots, the origins of Savatage and the transition into TSO; it's kinda cool, but really nothing we haven't hear before, but around 11:50, he starts to talk about the future of JOP and his solo album. The solo record will be called Raise the Curtain, and Jon says he will play everything on the album except some of the drums and keyboard (so he will actually be playing all the guitar leads on the record himself. He also discusses the possibility of a 25th anniversary reunion for Gutter Ballet in 2014 and mentions that he may "kidnap" some of the Savatage guys from TSO for such an event. He also goes on to talk quite a bit about Romanov, and from what he says it sounds very awesome. He calls it the best thing he and Paul have ever written together and mentions that it has some pretty dark, gothic and metal stuff on it, as well as some of the best ballads they've ever produced.
If that 25th aniversery of GB happens, I will definately be there, especially if some of the Sava-guys are on board. That sounds like it would be fucking amazing! :metal :metal :metal :metal
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Hmmm...didn't know he could play lead, or there is limited guitar solos.
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HAPPY 30TH ANNIVERSARY SAVATAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Savatage's debut album Sirens was released on April 11th 1983!!!
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30 years, incredible.
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Out on June 5!!
ON OLIVA'S PAIN and SAVATAGE mastermind Jon Oliva will release his first-ever solo album, "Raise The Curtain", on June 5 via AFM Records. The 11-song CD, which contains ideas collected over the course of the last four or five years, was tracked this past winter at Morrisound Studios in Tampa, Florida with producer Tom Morris, with Jon handling laying down nearly all the instrument tracks and vocals himself as well as playing drums on three songs.
"Raise The Curtain" track listing:
01. Raise The Curtain
02. Soul Chaser
03. Ten Years
04. Father Time
05. I Know
06. Big Brother
07. Armageddon
08. Soldier
09. Stalker
10. The Witch
11. Can't Get Away
12. The Truth (bonus track)
Check out the cover artwork below.
Commented JON OLIVA'S PAIN drummer/producer Christopher Kinder: "Oliva will be the first to admit that it took one hell of a challenge writing, performing 90% of all the tracks himself and vocals... he is exhausted, for sure."
He added: "It's a very interesting and powerful offering. Diverse, emotional, and varying styles of writing and music everywhere. A truly great accomplishment for the mountain king, indeed."
Last summer, JON OLIVA'S PAIN toured Europe where it celebrated the 25th anniversary of one of heavy metal's most iconic records, "Hall Of The Mountain King" by SAVATAGE. The band performed the entire album as a special one-time-only treat for the still massive amount of loyal fans, along with songs from the DOCTOR BUTCHER album (by Jon Oliva and Chris Caffery, released in 1995), SAVATAGE and JON OLIVA'S PAIN.
(https://www.blabbermouth.net/soulflypremiere/olivaraisecd.jpg)
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UltimateMetal.com has an early review: https://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/progpower-usa/876791-jon-oliva-raise-curtain-review.html (https://www.ultimatemetal.com/forum/progpower-usa/876791-jon-oliva-raise-curtain-review.html)
Sound's really cool, essentially old school 70's hard rock/heavy metal done Oliva/Savatage style. I'm definitely gonna be picking this up when it comes out next month. :metal
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Cool to hear. What did you guys think of the new Circle II Circle; I thought it was great. Top three from the band for me.
I like it, but it didn't blow me away
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ewjuNgRYU8
New song from Jon's solo album. Really nice, the production sounds a bit shit, but a good song.
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That's actually quite nice and refreshingly upbeat. Definitely prefer to the last few JOP albums.
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yeah, it's different, to me, not better or worse, which is cool.
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Well.... that was different. When I first heard his next record was going to be a solo album, it raised my eyebrows, as I always wonder what the point was of Jon doing a solo album when, at least in Savatage and JOP, he was already the main songwriter anyways. Well, this definitely does not sound like Savatage or JOP, so now I can totally understand and appreciate Jon's decision to put this out as a solo album.
That being said, though, I really like this. Kind of sounds like Deep Purple meets Ozzy-in-his-more-hippyesque-moments. I really dig the organ solo in the middle. One of my favourite things on the JOP records has been Jon's liberal use of electric organs, and it's cool to hear him use those sounds in a somewhat different musical style and context.
I cannot help but notice that over the past 15 years or so, Jon seems to be slowly returning to his musical roots. Poets and Madmen was a partial attempt to revisit the more metal side of Savatage, and with JOP, he combined both old- and new-school Savatage with ample musical homages to some of his primary influences ; most notably the Beatles, Alice Cooper and Queen. This album seems, in someways, to be the next step on that path, but unlike P&M or JOP (or even Doctor Butcher, for that matter), this is almost entirely a deviation from the classic Savatage sound.
It will be very interesting to hear this album in it's entirety. I'm very curious to see how musically adventurous Jon is willing to become when he is not confined by the established musical identities of any of his existent bands.
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New Jon Oliva interview on the classic metal show! Lots of cool info on the music and the making of Raise The Curtain and an interesting little bit at the end about potential future projects. https://www.spreaker.com/user/cmsrocks/interview_with_jon_oliva (https://www.spreaker.com/user/cmsrocks/interview_with_jon_oliva)
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So I bought the new Jon Oliva album a couple days ago, and I've been enjoying it quite a bit. The songs have a very old-school 70's prog rock vibe, which is somewhat of a continuation of the direction of JOP, but even moreso towards a retro sound. The packaging is very nice; there is a little message in the booklet from Jon about the making of the record and some pics from the Avatar/early Savatage days. I'll probably write up a full review on the record in the next couple of days and post it here, after it has sunk in a bit more and I can form a well educated opinion of it, but after listening to it a couple times, I can safely say that I like what I hear, and for anyone who likes JOP, especially the last couple records, this new album is must buy! :metal
Also, there's a new interview with Jon (in Dutch, but you can use google translate) in which he talks quite a bit about the new album, as well as the upcoming TSO album Romanov, which he describes as being a mix of Dead Winter Dead and The Wake Of Magellan, and should be out sometime in 2014. Really looking forward to that one! :metal https://www.zwaremetalen.com/interview/26700/Interview-met-Jon-Oliva.html (https://www.zwaremetalen.com/interview/26700/Interview-met-Jon-Oliva.html)
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:lol I was actually about to bump up this thread, TDM! :metal I've owned my copy of Hall of the Mountain King for about a year now, and while I had checked out Gutter Ballet and Edge of Thorns not long after that, I somehow never got around to picking up any of their other albums! :omg:
Been on a Savatage binge for the past day or two now and along with relistening to all of the 'Tage albums I'd heard before, I've also listened to Streets: A Rock Opera, Dead Winter Dead, The Wake of Magellan and Poets & Madmen for the first time. I'm currently in the middle of listening to Handful of Rain and enjoying it a lot so far.
Considering I'm on a tight budget, I'm debating on which 'Tage album I want to pick up next: Dead Winter Dead, Handful of Rain or Poets & Madmen. I might scratch out HoR within the hour though, if I end up not liking the rest of the album, but I think it'll probably still be there. I'm really liking that one so far. Anyways, from those three options, which you guys recommend I pick up first? I'd prefer to get an album with Zak on vocals first, since I currently only have HotMK, but I really liked P&MM a lot too.
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I'd recommend Poets And Madmen.
'Course, it's the only one I have, so I might be somewhat biased there. :lol
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I have all of their albums, but I also have a best of called "From the Gutter to the Stage". Extremely hard to find, but its out there. One of the best "best ofs" I've heard.
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despite it not entirely being done by all of Savatage, I still feel Handful of Rain is their masterpiece. I enjoy all the Zak Stevens records, and some of the pre-Zak stuff, but Handful is by far the record I've listened to the most.
HOR is a very, very interesting record. Jon and Paul basically wrote it as a way of working through the grief of Chris' death, and consequently it is probably the 'Tage's most personal and emotional album. There is a very strong blues, and in a few places almost western, influence on that record, but it still manages to run the gamut from almost the almost Metallica-esque Taunting Cobras to the epic Chance (which is in my opinion Sava's equivalent of Bohemian Rhapsody). It's definitely not an easy album to get into, and you have to listen to it multiple times to fully "get" it, but once you do, you keep a very special place in your heart for it.
I realize that this post is over two years old, but I find it a bit ironic. :lol
I'm in the process of finishing up listening to Handful of Rain for the first time, and I think it's probably my favorite 'Tage album that I've heard so far. :tup :metal I'm just floored by how great of an album it is. :hefdaddy I'll listen to Dead Winter Dead again in a bit to be sure, since I want to get an album with Zak on vocals, but HoR is pretty damn amazing. :metal
Also have to say that Zak's performance on HoR is absolutely breathtaking. Dude absolutely killed it on that album. :hefdaddy
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Savatage have no weak albums. The only one that would come close to weak would obviously be Fight for the Rock.
Been spinning the new CIIC lately in the car, it's fantastic.
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Savatage have no weak albums. The only one that would come close to weak would obviously be Fight for the Rock.
Been spinning the new CIIC lately in the car, it's fantastic.
Fight for the Rock is solid, but yeah it's their weakest release for sure. The cover on that album isn't very good. As for CIIC, I would place their latest as my second favorite behind B of T
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Savatage have no weak albums. The only one that would come close to weak would obviously be Fight for the Rock.
Been spinning the new CIIC lately in the car, it's fantastic.
Indeed, and that's a rare feat for any band to accomplish. The only other two metal bands that immediately come to mind that I feel did the same were Fates Warning and Death. :metal
What's everyone's favorite Savatage album?
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My fav album has changed so many times. It usually goes between Gutter Ballet, Streets, Edge of Thorns and Pets and Madmen.
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My fav album has changed so many times. It usually goes between Gutter Ballet, Streets, Edge of Thorns and Pets and Madmen.
Don't forget Hall of the Mountain King, Handful of Rain, Dead Winter Dead, Power of the Night and Wake of Magellan
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My fav album has changed so many times. It usually goes between Gutter Ballet, Streets, Edge of Thorns and Pets and Madmen.
:metal
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Considering I'm on a tight budget, I'm debating on which 'Tage album I want to pick up next: Dead Winter Dead, Handful of Rain or Poets & Madmen. I might scratch out HoR within the hour though, if I end up not liking the rest of the album, but I think it'll probably still be there. I'm really liking that one so far. Anyways, from those three options, which you guys recommend I pick up first? I'd prefer to get an album with Zak on vocals first, since I currently only have HotMK, but I really liked P&MM a lot too.
Definitely Dead Winter Dead, IMO. I have a very difficult time deciding between that album and Streets for which is my favourite 'Tage record. Recently, I've been leaning more towards DWD, as I've been more in the mood for the more symphonic/proggy side of Savatage. Furthermore, if you like Trans-Siberian Orchestra at all, DWD is mandatory, as it was on that record where Savatage really became TSO for the first time.
All that being said though:
Savatage have no weak albums. The only one that would come close to weak would obviously be Fight for the Rock.
This is completely true ;)
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Handful of Rain or Gutter Ballet for me.
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Considering I'm on a tight budget, I'm debating on which 'Tage album I want to pick up next: Dead Winter Dead, Handful of Rain or Poets & Madmen. I might scratch out HoR within the hour though, if I end up not liking the rest of the album, but I think it'll probably still be there. I'm really liking that one so far. Anyways, from those three options, which you guys recommend I pick up first? I'd prefer to get an album with Zak on vocals first, since I currently only have HotMK, but I really liked P&MM a lot too.
Definitely Dead Winter Dead, IMO. I have a very difficult time deciding between that album and Streets for which is my favourite 'Tage record. Recently, I've been leaning more towards DWD, as I've been more in the mood for the more symphonic/proggy side of Savatage. Furthermore, if you like Trans-Siberian Orchestra at all, DWD is mandatory, as it was on that record where Savatage really became TSO for the first time.
All that being said though:
Savatage have no weak albums. The only one that would come close to weak would obviously be Fight for the Rock.
This is completely true ;)
I actually decided to go with DWD after giving it a re-listen. :tup I'm not sure if I prefer it over HoR or not, but it's more affordable for me and it feels more like an actual band on that album (unsurprising since Jon recorded most of HoR on his own). Either way, I'm relatively certain I will be picking up the rest of the 'Tage albums in the near future. :metal
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DWD is a pretty special album.
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DWD is a pretty special album.
Yeah, the more I listen to it, the more I'm loving it. Definitely made the right call on picking that one! :tup
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DWD happened to be my first exposure to the 'Tage. After thoroughly enjoying it, I had a hard time getting into their earlier stuff, but eventually got the whole catalog. You can't really go wrong. DWD and Wake of Magellen is my favorite 1-2 punch.
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I always thought that Wake of Magellan is the better Dead Winter Dead, meaning that the style they introduced on DWD is perfected on Magellan, but that's just me.
So anyway, my favorite 'Tage record at the moment might be Poets and Madmen.
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I always thought that Wake of Magellan is the better Dead Winter Dead, meaning that the style they introduced on DWD is perfected on Magellan, but that's just me.
So anyway, my favorite 'Tage record at the moment might be Poets and Madmen.
Yeah, that's my favourite as well. I love how gritty it is and Jon's voice on it is amazing. Plus, Morphine Child = instant win.
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I always thought that Wake of Magellan is the better Dead Winter Dead, meaning that the style they introduced on DWD is perfected on Magellan, but that's just me.
So anyway, my favorite 'Tage record at the moment might be Poets and Madmen.
Yeah, that's my favourite as well. I love how gritty it is and Jon's voice on it is amazing. Plus, Morphine Child = instant win.
I loved listening to Poets & Madmen. Almost definitely the best Savatage album with Jon as the main vocalist! :metal
Again, part of the reason why I ended up choosing between Dead Winter Dead or Handful of Rain is because I wanted to get an album with Zak on vocals next, since I already have one with Jon on vocals. Since I decided to go with DWD first, I'll probably get P&MM and HoR together in the near future. :tup
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Gutter Ballet and Streets for me. The others are good but not on a par with those two. Relistened to P&M a few weeks ago and it's still not a favourite. I'd take Trans-Siberian Orchestra's Beethoven's Last Night over most of Sava's catalogue too. Love that album and it is pretty much a Savatage album.
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Gutter Ballet and Streets for me. The others are good but not on a par with those two. Relistened to P&M a few weeks ago and it's still not a favourite. I'd take Trans-Siberian Orchestra's Beethoven's Last Night over most of Sava's catalogue too. Love that album and it is pretty much a Savatage album.
Love Gutter Ballet. Definitely the best album with Criss on guitar, IMO.
However, while I know most people seem to LOVE Streets: A Rock Opera, it hasn't really clicked with me... yet. There's definitely some immediately terrific moments on that album IMO, but I'll need more listens to make more sense of that album. As it stands, it's definitely one of the lower ranking 'Tage album I've heard so far (note: I haven't listened to Fight for the Rock or any of the other pre-HotMK 'Tage albums yet). Still, I wouldn't be surprised if my thoughts on it changed with repeated listens.
Currently re-listening to The Wake of Magellan. It's interesting how it's so stylistically similar to Dead Winter Dead, yet it has such a totally different vibe about it. Like both albums a lot, though I prefer DWD. What about everyone else?
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Gutter Ballet and Streets for me. The others are good but not on a par with those two. Relistened to P&M a few weeks ago and it's still not a favourite. I'd take Trans-Siberian Orchestra's Beethoven's Last Night over most of Sava's catalogue too. Love that album and it is pretty much a Savatage album.
While I don't rate Gutter Ballet quite that high, it is a really excellent album in it's own right. The title track is my favourite Savatage song of all time, When The Crowds Are Gone is IMO the best 80's power ballad ever written, and the album as a whole is my second favourite album from the 80's (beaten out only by Operation: Mindcrime!). Truth be told, aside from my two favourites (Streets and DWD), I have difficult time choosing the order in which I like all the other O'Neill era SavaAlbums because they are all masterpieces unto themselves!
Poets & Madmen is an awesome record, but knowing about what happened during the production of it, I feel like it could have been so much more. While Jon's performance on the album is nothing short of masterful, I really wish they had waited for Zak to take care of his personal shit before finishing the album, as I strongly feel his presence would have really benefited the music on that record. With Zak on P&M, we would have gotten the dual vocal interplay we were promised, and furthermore, the record would have included the songs that were cut from the album due to Zak's absence. The loss of both was a tragic mistake on Jon's part, and I firmly believe Zak's departure contributed mightily to the decline of the band's popularity, and the ultimate mothballing of Savatage, in the early 2000's.
Beyond all that, though, I was a little dissapointed whin I first heard the record largely because I was all for the grandiose operatic style of DWD, TWOM and TSO, and I had really wanted to see Savatage continue down that creative path. In fact, when the band first started talking about making P&M (around the summer of '99 or so), the first comments from Jon, Paul and Caffery about the direction of the record indicated that it would be very much in the same vein as DWD, TWOM and TSO: multiple vocalists, epic neo-classical instrumentals, big symphonic production, etc. It was only later that Paul announced that he would not be writing a story for the record, and Jon decided to make it into a more straightforward metal album, downplaying the symphonic and operatic elements of the band. Then Paul changed his mind and made it into a concept album anyways, and then Zak left and we only got Jon on vocals instead of the best of both worlds............... Don't get me wrong, I love that album for what it is, but I can't help but feel that it could have been much better. Especially coming off of Beethoven's Last Night, it was a bit of a disappointment for me.
And speaking of BLN, that particular record is just fucking phenomenal, the magnum opus of TSO's career thus far. By far the darkest and most epic of TSO's albums, with both Jon and Zak singing a few leads here and there, it does sound the closest to Savatage of all the TSO records. Plus the story is, in my opinion, the best Paul has written yet: Beethoven trying to avoid making a deal with the Devil to prevent his own damnation? Absolutely brilliant! If I count Savatage and TSO as the same band, BLN would rank right below Streets and DWD as my 3rd favourite record in the entire combined discography.
Currently re-listening to The Wake of Magellan. It's interesting how it's so stylistically similar to Dead Winter Dead, yet it has such a totally different vibe about it. Like both albums a lot, though I think I prefer DWD. What about everyone else?
TWOM, along with Handful Of Rain, was one of the Savatage album that took me a very long time to "get". At first I was a bit put off by the warmer sound and more laid back, bluesy vibe, but overtime, I began to realize that both those albums were every bit as ambitious and musically vast as any other O' Neil era record, just slightly more subtle in their epic-ness. In fact, over the past few years, TWOM has become one of my most listened to Savatage records, perhaps because it's lack of immediate gratification has given it an enduring longevity.
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Just started re-listening to Streets: A Rock Opera! So far, I can say it's much more impressive this time around! :metal However I'm still pretty early on in the album and it's pretty damn long. But so far, so good. :metal
EDIT: Okay so I just finished... HOLY FUCKING SHIT, THAT ALBUM WAS AMAZING!!! :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :metal :metal :metal :metal
*cough* Pardon my French there. :lol But yeah, I'm blown away. Far better that second time around! Definitely right up there with Dead Winter Dead, Handful of Rain and Poets & Madmen for me. Just... WOW. What a fantastic album...
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Yes Streets is an amazing album. I'm sure fans at the time were wondering what was going on with their sound, but it's a classic for sure.
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Yes Streets is an amazing album. I'm sure fans at the time were wondering what was going on with their sound, but it's a classic for sure.
I love the guitar sound on Streets. Criss' best work for me. Huge sound.
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Yes Streets is an amazing album. I'm sure fans at the time were wondering what was going on with their sound, but it's a classic for sure.
I love the guitar sound on Streets. Criss' best work for me. Huge sound.
Agreed. As far Criss-era Savatage goes, I'd say it's probably between Streets or Gutter Ballet. I have yet to re-check Edge of Thorns though, so that might change.
But that being said, I still LOVE the post-Criss albums a great deal. Alex Skolnick was brilliant on Handful of Rain and I love the duo of Chris Caffery and Al Pitrelli on the albums after that.
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I never understood that Caffery came back into the band and instantly was demoted to rhythm guitar, bar 1 or 2 solos on both DWD and TWOM for Pitrelli. I assume it was for the live benefit, as Petrilli would take the newer songs while Caffery played Criss's songs, but I always found it odd.
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I never understood that Caffery came back into the band and instantly was demoted to rhythm guitar, bar 1 or 2 solos on both DWD and TWOM for Pitrelli. I assume it was for the live benefit, as Petrilli would take the newer songs while Caffery played Criss's songs, but I always found it odd.
For some reason I don't find Pitrelli a particularly interesting soloist. Nothing really stands out on anything I've heard him on. Solid, certainly, just not very noticable.
Going to have to dig out those middle albums again, it's been too long.
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His work on those two album are very good, but yeah, he's great, but nothing special. IMO, Caffery is probably the better guitarist. Check out his first solo album Faces, amzing metal.
Just never understood why the solos weren't split down the middle.
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Iknow I've mentioned this before, but since this topic came up again:
After Criss died, Atlantic came very close to dropping Savatage. The Powers That Be at the label had serious doubts about the vitality of the band without Criss playing lead guitar. Jon and Paul had already started writing new music, basically because it was the only way they could work through the pain from the loss of Criss, but under label pressure, the new material was turned into a new Savatage album because the label wanted a new SavaAlbum ASAP so they could find out whether or not the fans would give two shits about the band without Criss. Jon had already asked Alex to play on the record as a sort of personal favour to Criss, but when the album became the next Savatage album, Alex found himself as the new guitarist for the band (for the record, Caffery was asked first, but declined, as he was still in shock from Criss' death). Zak subsequently was brought in to sing on Handful Of Rain, as he had just been introduced as the new vocalist on the last album.
After the HOR tour, however, Alex and the band had second thoughts. Alex's style did not really mesh well with the old Savatage material and the way he had changed around solos live on classic songs infuriated the fans. With Alex gone, Caffery finally accepted Jon's invitation to rejoin Savatage, as he had played extensively with Criss and know how to play the songs properly. However, with both Criss' death and then Alex's departure, Atlantic felt that another, more well known guitarist was needed to give some sort of credibility to the long-term vitality and marketability of the band.
You have to look at it from the label's point of view: With in a little over a year, the band had lost both their original lead guitarist, and his celebrity replacement. The train of thought at Atlantic was that only another famous and tenured shredder could possibly fill in Criss' shoes, at least, from a marketing standpoint. The only thing Caffery had done up to that point as a lead guitarist was Doctor Butcher, and that didn't even get released outside of Europe. Sure, Caffery could play all the old shit live from his experience in Savatage from '87-'90, but the label wanted an already established musician to take over lead duties on future albums. Al had played with Alice Cooper, Asia and Dee Snider's Widowmaker, plus Jon and Paul had already considered recruiting him back in '93 when they first started laying the foundation for the Broadway-rock group that would perform Romanov (what eventually became TSO). To keep the label happy, he became the logical choice.
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Iknow I've mentioned this before, but since this topic came up again:
After Criss died, Atlantic came very close to dropping Savatage. The Powers That Be at the label had serious doubts about the vitality of the band without Criss playing lead guitar. Jon and Paul had already started writing new music, basically because it was the only way they could work through the pain from the loss of Criss, but under label pressure, the new material was turned into a new Savatage album because the label wanted a new SavaAlbum ASAP so they could find out whether or not the fans would give two shits about the band without Criss. Jon had already asked Alex to play on the record as a sort of personal favour to Criss, but when the album became the next Savatage album, Alex found himself as the new guitarist for the band (for the record, Caffery was asked first, but declined, as he was still in shock from Criss' death). Zak subsequently was brought in to sing on Handful Of Rain, as he had just been introduced as the new vocalist on the last album.
After the HOR tour, however, Alex and the band had second thoughts. Alex's style did not really mesh well with the old Savatage material and the way he had changed around solos live on classic songs infuriated the fans. With Alex gone, Caffery finally accepted Jon's invitation to rejoin Savatage, as he had played extensively with Criss and know how to play the songs properly. However, with both Criss' death and then Alex's departure, Atlantic felt that another, more well known guitarist was needed to give some sort of credibility to the long-term vitality and marketability of the band.
You have to look at it from the label's point of view: With in a little over a year, the band had lost both their original lead guitarist, and his celebrity replacement. The train of thought at Atlantic was that only another famous and tenured shredder could possibly fill in Criss' shoes, at least, from a marketing standpoint. The only thing Caffery had done up to that point as a lead guitarist was Doctor Butcher, and that didn't even get released outside of Europe. Sure, Caffery could play all the old shit live from his experience in Savatage from '87-'90, but the label wanted an already established musician to take over lead duties on future albums. Al had played with Alice Cooper, Asia and Dee Snider's Widowmaker, plus Jon and Paul had already considered recruiting him back in '93 when they first started laying the foundation for the Broadway-rock group that would perform Romanov (what eventually became TSO). To keep the label happy, he became the logical choice.
That Widowmaker album is very good.
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Wake of Magellan is my all time favorite Tage album...and I'm really happy that they went out on top.
Well...kinda.
Poets and Madmen was the album that took me forever to get into. It wasn't because I didn't like Jon or anything. I had been a Streets fan since its release, so I was actually EXCITED about Jon taking lead duties back over. But for some reason, the final result just did NOTHING for me. Even after a dozen spins. What's weird is that I put it on the shelf where it gathered dust for YEARS. Then I was doing a Savatage album discussion on the MP forum...so I did a re-listen...and it just all clicked. I love that album now. Don't know why it didn't hit me at first. (but I still like WoM better)
Gutter Ballet has some great songs...but it's too uneven. It's this weird crossover. They were going in a great new direction with the title track and WTCAG...but then songs like She's In Love and Of Rage and War that just sounded like throwbacks to Sirens. The two sounds just didn't blend well to me, and it sounded like they couldn't figure out if they wanted to be Queen or DiAnno's version of Iron Maiden.
As much as I had *LIKED* Savatage ever since HotMK...and liked Streets in particular...it wasn't until DWD that I became a complete Savatage freak.
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Iknow I've mentioned this before, but since this topic came up again:
After Criss died, Atlantic came very close to dropping Savatage. The Powers That Be at the label had serious doubts about the vitality of the band without Criss playing lead guitar. Jon and Paul had already started writing new music, basically because it was the only way they could work through the pain from the loss of Criss, but under label pressure, the new material was turned into a new Savatage album because the label wanted a new SavaAlbum ASAP so they could find out whether or not the fans would give two shits about the band without Criss. Jon had already asked Alex to play on the record as a sort of personal favour to Criss, but when the album became the next Savatage album, Alex found himself as the new guitarist for the band (for the record, Caffery was asked first, but declined, as he was still in shock from Criss' death). Zak subsequently was brought in to sing on Handful Of Rain, as he had just been introduced as the new vocalist on the last album.
After the HOR tour, however, Alex and the band had second thoughts. Alex's style did not really mesh well with the old Savatage material and the way he had changed around solos live on classic songs infuriated the fans. With Alex gone, Caffery finally accepted Jon's invitation to rejoin Savatage, as he had played extensively with Criss and know how to play the songs properly. However, with both Criss' death and then Alex's departure, Atlantic felt that another, more well known guitarist was needed to give some sort of credibility to the long-term vitality and marketability of the band.
You have to look at it from the label's point of view: With in a little over a year, the band had lost both their original lead guitarist, and his celebrity replacement. The train of thought at Atlantic was that only another famous and tenured shredder could possibly fill in Criss' shoes, at least, from a marketing standpoint. The only thing Caffery had done up to that point as a lead guitarist was Doctor Butcher, and that didn't even get released outside of Europe. Sure, Caffery could play all the old shit live from his experience in Savatage from '87-'90, but the label wanted an already established musician to take over lead duties on future albums. Al had played with Alice Cooper, Asia and Dee Snider's Widowmaker, plus Jon and Paul had already considered recruiting him back in '93 when they first started laying the foundation for the Broadway-rock group that would perform Romanov (what eventually became TSO). To keep the label happy, he became the logical choice.
I never knew all this and I never would have thought it was a label decision. Thanks for the info that really cleared it up.
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After giving a few more spin-throughs to a few of the 'Tage albums, I think I can say that if Zak had sang on Streets: A Rock Opera, that would've definitely been my favorite album. It might be my favorite by them regardless, I'm not sure, but I'm listening to a bootleg of Savatage on the Edge of Thorns tour and I love hearing Zak singing the older material with Criss on guitar. It's a shame the two of them were only on one 'Tage album together.
Zak singing 'Streets' and 'Ghost in the Ruins' in 1993! :metal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aghe4-ihbPc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkpJAbuNa_Q
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After giving a few more spin-throughs to a few of the 'Tage albums, I think I can say that if Zak had sang on Streets: A Rock Opera, that would've definitely been my favorite album. It might be my favorite by them regardless, I'm not sure, but I'm listening to a bootleg of Savatage on the Edge of Thorns tour and I love hearing Zak singing the older material with Criss on guitar. It's a shame the two of them were only on one 'Tage album together.
Zak singing 'Streets' and 'Ghost in the Ruins' in 1993! :metal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aghe4-ihbPc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkpJAbuNa_Q
I'm not the biggest Jon vocal guy, but I like him on Streets. Maybe Zak would be better on the quieter stuff but Jon's vice is good there for me. My biggest problem with P&M was Jon's voice. After having Zak in the band it was hard to go back. P&M just didn't do it for me. It's not awful, jus not up htere with their best.
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To each their own, I guess, but P&M is my favourite Savatage album, because of Jon's voice, largely. While Zak is talented, I never liked the sound of his voice, I much prefer Jon's raspier tone, it gives the songs a very fitting and welcome edge.
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After giving a few more spin-throughs to a few of the 'Tage albums, I think I can say that if Zak had sang on Streets: A Rock Opera, that would've definitely been my favorite album. It might be my favorite by them regardless, I'm not sure, but I'm listening to a bootleg of Savatage on the Edge of Thorns tour and I love hearing Zak singing the older material with Criss on guitar. It's a shame the two of them were only on one 'Tage album together.
Zak singing 'Streets' and 'Ghost in the Ruins' in 1993! :metal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aghe4-ihbPc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkpJAbuNa_Q
I'm not the biggest Jon vocal guy, but I like him on Streets. Maybe Zak would be better on the quieter stuff but Jon's vice is good there for me. My biggest problem with P&M was Jon's voice. After having Zak in the band it was hard to go back. P&M just didn't do it for me. It's not awful, jus not up htere with their best.
I love Jon's voice, but once I heard Zak singing some of the older material from when Jon was the main singer, I really wish there was more heavier Savatage material with Zak on vocals. That being said, I don't have anything against Jon's performance on Streets. He's great on it. I just wish I could hear more of Zak singing it. :tup
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While looking for Jon singing Zak stuff, I came across this version of Edge of Thorns, featuring Todd La Torre. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BouXYmkR4q4
I'm firmly in Jon's camp though. I like Zak, he has a very friendly, yet very powerful voice but almost every Savatage song I hear him on I think "This would have been better with Jon". And Poets and Madmen is right up there with Streets and Gutter Ballet for me. This album is just incredible and I'm glad that it's 100% Oliva.
Speaking of Oliva's Edge of Thorns, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxGx1J5mHA8
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While looking for Jon singing Zak stuff, I came across this version of Edge of Thorns, featuring Todd La Torre. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BouXYmkR4q4
God I love listening to Todd sing. :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy
I'm firmly in Jon's camp though. I like Zak, he has a very friendly, yet very powerful voice but almost every Savatage song I hear him on I think "This would have been better with Jon". And Poets and Madmen is right up there with Streets and Gutter Ballet for me. This album is just incredible and I'm glad that it's 100% Oliva.
Speaking of Oliva's Edge of Thorns, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxGx1J5mHA8
I love both singers a lot. Jon's terrific on his albums and Zak is terrific on his albums too. However, I think it's a shame that Zak only had one album with Criss on guitar. Edge of Thorns is brilliant, but when I listen to Streets and Handful of Rain, I wonder how it would've sounded if the both of them were on those albums. Ah well. :lol
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That was an awesome version of Edge of Thorns with TLT
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Have you guys listened to the bonus tracks on P&M? Mainly the acoustic version of Tonight He Grins Again. My god, I love Jon's deep mellow voice.
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Yeah, it's amazing. I think I actually prefer it to the original.
By the way, P&M also features an acoustic version of Sleep as a bonus track - what's the difference between the original and the acoustic version?
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Yeah, it's amazing. I think I actually prefer it to the original.
By the way, P&M also features an acoustic version of Sleep as a bonus track - what's the difference between the original and the acoustic version?
The original was done on acoustic guitar with Zak singing. The acoustic version is on piano with Jon singing, and first appeared as a bonus track on the North American version of The Wake Of Magellan.
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https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/savatage-streets-a-rock-opera-narrated-version-reissue-detailed/
earMUSIC has announced the long-awaited final chapter of the successful SAVATAGE reissues series. Previously unreleased and originally only intended for the Broadway rendition, "Streets: A Rock Opera" — the groundbreaking album by SAVATAGE — is now available including its original narration parts.
To complete this extraordinary release and to award the many fans who have shown dedication and love for SAVATAGE's legacy, the final chapter of this reissue series will feature the band's favorite videos. Released for the first time on DVD and restored from the original tapes, the video collection spans from SAVATAGE's 1987's video "Hall Of The Mountain King" until 1996's "One Child".
As on all previous chapters of the SAVATAGE reissues series, the album includes newly written liner notes by Jon Oliva, who is sharing his memories about all SAVATAGE videos.
Fans looking for unreleased and rare bonus tracks will be happy to discover a lot of extra audio content on the DVD: "Shotgun Innocence", "Forever After", one instrumental acoustic version of "Voyage", live versions of "Stare Into The Sun" and "Conversation Piece" recorded in Japan (but NOT included on the official live CD) and the piano version of "Sleep". The bonus track "Larry Elbows" deserves a special mention: this previously unreleased song didn't make it on the original "Streets: A Rock Opera" album due to time limits and is finally available to all the fans that never forgot the creativity and the energy of this extraordinary band.
"I'm really excited for this version of 'Streets' to finally be released," says Jon Oliva. "It was something different, an idea that Paul O'Neill had to take the progressive rock opera format to a bigger and better place than anything we had done, and anything I had heard anyone else doing before. This version of the album has only been floating around on bootlegs."
CD "Streets: A Rock Opera: Narrated Version"
01. Streets
02. Narration To "Jesus"
03. Jesus Saves (Original Version)
04. Narration To "Tonight He Grins Again"
05. Tonight He Grins Again
06. Narration To "Strange Reality"
07. Strange Reality
08. Narration To "A Little Too Far"
09. A Little Too Far
10. Narration To "You're Alive"
11. You're Alive
12. Narration To "Sammy And Tex"
13. Sammy And Tex
14. Narration To "St. Patrick's"
15. St. Patrick's
16. Narration To "Can You Hear Me Now"
17. Can You Hear Me Now
18. Narration To "New York City Don't Mean Nothing"
19. New York City Don't Mean Nothing
20. Narration To "Ghost In The Ruins"
21. Ghost In The Ruins
22. Narration To "If I Go Away"
23. If I Go Away
24. Narration To "Agony And Ecstasy"
25. Agony And Ecstasy
26. Narration To "Heal My Soul"
27. Heal My Soul
28. Narration To "Somewhere In Time
29. Somewhere In Time
30. Believe
Bonus Track
31. Larry Elbows (previously unreleased)
DVD The Video Collection
01. Hall Of The Mountain King
02. 24 Hrs. Ago
03. Gutter Ballet
04. When The Crowds Are Gone
05. Jesus Saves
06. Edge Of Thorns
07. Sleep
08. Handful Of Rain
09. One Child
Bonus Audio Tracks
01. Sleep (piano version)
02. Stare Into The Sun (Live In Japan)
03. Conversation Piece (Live In Japan)
04. Voyage (Al Pitrelli acoustic instrumental)
05. Shotgun Innocence
06. Forever After
(https://assets.blabbermouth.net.s3.amazonaws.com/media/savatagestreetsreissue.jpg)
HOLY SHIT YES!! :hefdaddy
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Not a fan but that looks like quite a package.
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Are these reissues available in the US? I tried to find that Streets Reissue and ended up finding the pre-order on the German Amazon page.
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Wow that's a reissue!!
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Holy
Shit
This is fucking awesome! All the narration, plus we finally get a proper release for Larry Elbows, both Japanese EOT bonus tracks AND (i believe) every Savatage music video!?
:metal
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Shotgun Innocence and Forever After are fantastic tunes. With a release like this, it shows that there is a demand still for Savatage material. Hopefully its a catalyst of some kind for one final disc of new material.
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It's the narration I'm mainly excited about, and Larry's Elbows. Although the vids are cool, Forever After and Shotgun Innocence are widely available. I can't wait to hear this thing how it was originally intended.
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In retrospect, I kind of wish they had included the other 5 songs that were cut from Streets (Stay, Desiree, Sanctuary, Beyond Broadway and Tonight I Would Be King), but since all that remains of those songs in their Streets forms are very very rough demos, I guess they decided to omit them. I suppose it also would have been somewhat redundant, as most of those songs have been released in one form or another anyways: Stay and Desiree were both recorded as acoustic bonus tracks (Stay for the NA release of TWOM, and Desiree was on the '97 re-issue Streets), while Sanctuary and Beyond Broadway were just lyrical re-workings of older Savatage demos, Target and Before I Hang, respectively (Target was on the Silver re-issue of Sirens, BIH was on the Silver re-issue of Dungeons). Still no release of Tonight I Would Be King, though :'(
I can't complain too much though, this re-release is really bad ass as is. I will definately be picking this up when it comes out! :metal
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JON OLIVA MENTIONS POSSIBLE NEW SAVATAGE RECORDINGS IN INTERVIEW!!!!!
https://www.metalmeltdown.com/1/post/2013/06/interviews-jonoliva2013.html (https://www.metalmeltdown.com/1/post/2013/06/interviews-jonoliva2013.html)
So Jon conducted a very lengthy and in depth interview recently with Dr. Metal, during which he talked about the future of Savatage and whatnot, and said that while any future Savatage shows or tours are pretty much out of the question due to TSO's very demanding schedule, since TSO is going to be spending a lot of time in the studio finishing three upcoming albums, there may be the chance of a new Savatage EP being recorded:
I see the guys, I talk to the guys, I text them all the time, I see them at the rehearsals, I travel on the road with them. When we're in the studio, everybody's there, pretty much the same as it was when we were doing Dead Winter Dead and Wake of Magellan. To me, we never really broke up. We just kind of said, 'This name is not working. We've got to put it on the shelf, because it's not working.' And that's the bottom line. The bottom line comes down to, perish the thought, but it comes down to making a living. We're not 21 anymore. We gave the best years of our lives to Savatage. When people sometimes actually get snotty with me about it, and I'm like, 'Where the hell were all you guys when we needed you to buy the record?' If Savatage would have released Dead Winter Dead and it sold 2 million records, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now. Somebody else explain to me how I could release the same song the next year and it sell millions. And then I walk around and I've got 6 platinum records on my wall, and not one of them says Savatage on it, folks. So what am I supposed to do? I've got a family to take care of. I've got responsibilities. I gave it as much time as I could to break. Now I have something that's become very successful. It's paid the bills for everybody, it's provided a living for all the guys from Savatage. We're still a family, we're still together, we still love each other. Why would I want to do anything to destroy that? Why would I want to put a monkey wrench in that to rehearse a week and go put a Savatage thing together? It doesn't make any sense to me. Now I'm up for maybe doing some recordings, maybe put together a 4-song or 5-song EP or something, but I can't shut down what provides a living for so many people, the Savatage guys mostly. It just doesn't make any sense to me. I think a lot of times Chris (Caffery) and Johnny and those guys just miss those days, and believe me, I miss them, too. I miss them probably more than any of them do. Johnny and Chris have been around for a while, but I was there for ten years before Johnny and Chris Caffery were around. So if anyone understands it, I do understand, but we just don't have the time to do both. That's why we had to make that decision - is it going to be Savatage, is it going to be TSO? The numbers don't lie. You can't fight the numbers. TSO sells out 40,000 tickets a day. I've done whole tours with Savatage in America where we didn't play in front of 40,000 people in 6 weeks, and people still argue with me about it. It drives me crazy. I'm like, 'I don't get it. I don't get it, guys. I don't get it.' I understand, but Savatage was a great band, and I want it to live on its legacy. I don't want to just slap something together real quick and cheapen the name. If I was ever going to do that, it would have to be big, at the level of TSO, the production and everything. I'm not just going to slap it together. That wouldn't be right, and I don't think it's necessary. Maybe we'll do some recording, though, maybe do an EP and put it out as a special thing.
We're working on three TSO albums at one time right now. We've got Romanov we're recording, we've got a 'Gutter Ballet' thing that we're working on, and we've got this new thing called 'Letters from the Labyrinth' that we're working on. So that to me, three albums that are backed up right now, that's at least, in the Paul O'Neill world, that's at least four years worth of work. So when do you do it? Is it worth cutting the foot off of the goose that lays the golden egg so everyone can go get their ya-ya's out? I don't know. Maybe I'd feel different a year from now. Right now I think the most important thing is to get these TSO projects done, get Romanov out, which is going to be a monstrous album. It's by far the best TSO stuff ever. And then play it by ear and see. I think it's more realistic for us to record because we're going to be in the studio for the next few years anyway in between tours with those guys. It'd be a lot easier, a lot more feasible for us. Let's write like 6 new Savatage songs and do something special for the fans and call it 'Final Curtain' or 'The End' or 'Goodnight' or 'Thank You' or whatever and put it out, and that I think would be more realistic.
At this point, I'm not sure how much I should get my hopes up, but with TSO playing more Savatage songs on recent tours, and Zak talking about taking a more active role in TSO, perhaps this could actually come to pass. I would love to hear some new Savatage material, even knowing it could be for the last time. But who knows; if they actually do an EP, and the sales are high enough, perhaps that will be enough to convince Jon and Paul that Savatage still has some life left in it yet.
Also, I highly recommend listening to the whole interview. It is probably the longest and most detailed interview I've ever heard from Jon, and definitely worth it for any hard core Savatage fan.
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Oh please god, make this happen :omg:
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Yes please.
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Im willing to bet that Jon gets asked about a Savatage reunion by fans on a very regular basis (maybe almost daily). If they release something along the lines of a thank you or farewell then he can truly put closure on Savatage and satisfy this fanbase.
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going to take alot of heat for this but Savatage stopped being Savatage when Jon stepped down from the lead vocals.....
Being a metal head first and foremost and a huge fan of Jon's style of singing and voice, when he decided to step aside, it really became the end of the band for me. I tried the follow-ups with Zac but they never reaally clicked with me
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going to take alot of heat for this but Savatage stopped being Savatage when Jon stepped down from the lead vocals.....
Being a metal head first and foremost and a huge fan of Jon's style of singing and voice, when he decided to step aside, it really became the end of the band for me. I tried the follow-ups with Zac but they never reaally clicked with me
Actually, I agree up to a point. I've heard all the Zac albums and have enjoyed the experience, yet I've never purchased any of them. I own most the Jon albums though and have them on regular rotation.
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going to take alot of heat for this but Savatage stopped being Savatage when Jon stepped down from the lead vocals.....
Being a metal head first and foremost and a huge fan of Jon's style of singing and voice, when he decided to step aside, it really became the end of the band for me. I tried the follow-ups with Zac but they never reaally clicked with me
Exactly the opposite for me. I didn't even buy the last disc because Zak wasn't on it.
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going to take alot of heat for this but Savatage stopped being Savatage when Jon stepped down from the lead vocals.....
Being a metal head first and foremost and a huge fan of Jon's style of singing and voice, when he decided to step aside, it really became the end of the band for me. I tried the follow-ups with Zac but they never reaally clicked with me
Well, it's a good thing he came back to the vocals in Poets and Madmen then. I kind of agree, the Zac albums aren't as good, imo, but they are still really good albums overall.
As for Savatage tours - I don't care for that as much, I'd be happy if they decide to just be a studio band and release an album every 3-4 years in-between TSO tours.
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going to take alot of heat for this but Savatage stopped being Savatage when Jon stepped down from the lead vocals.....
Being a metal head first and foremost and a huge fan of Jon's style of singing and voice, when he decided to step aside, it really became the end of the band for me. I tried the follow-ups with Zac but they never reaally clicked with me
Savatage lost a certain amount of their "character" when they switched singers. I'm not really a fan of either era but I see what you are saying.
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Wow...
I really love *all* eras of Savatage...and I even catch flack for being luke warm on Edge of Thorns. But I think Savatage PEAKED with DWD and WOM. Those albums are stunning.
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going to take alot of heat for this but Savatage stopped being Savatage when Jon stepped down from the lead vocals.....
I'm going to agree and disagree with this sentiment. Jon Oliva stepping down from the mic and the introduction of Zak had a massive impact on the sound of the band. While Zak certainly had his metal influences as a singer, he's much more influenced by blues and country, and his style of vocals brought a completely different tone to Savatage. That being said, I think Zak's voice was well suited for Savatage and the direction they were going on Edge Of Thorns. White Gutter Ballet and Streets, the band got about as melodic as they could with Jon as the front man, and (no offence to Jon), in the age of MTV, Savatage wasn't going to achieve much commercial success with a singer looking like Jon. Zak was better looking and had a more mainstream friendly voice, and combined with the more hard rock direction of EOT, the band managed to achieve a level of commercial crossover that had previously been un-attainable to them. Had Criss not died, it is highly probably EOT would have been Savatage big break into the mainstream......
................Which leads me to my next point: The change of singer was one of three major alterations Savatage went through between 1992 and 1994 that completely remade the band. Criss's guitar riffs were just as significant to the band's sound as Jon's voice, and when Criss passed away, a certain guitar driven edge was lost. It is no coincidence that on Handful Of Rain, the band focused much more on symphonic orchestrations and complex vocal arrangements then ever before. Criss's passing sparked a very conscious move away from guitar driven rock and into something more theatrical, something that the band had toyed with before, but now really became the defining element of the band.
Wacholz's permanent departure from the band after Criss's death sealed the end of "Classic" Savatage and the band that came into existence on Handful Of Rain was a very different entity then the band that had existed from '82 to '92. Without Jon's voice, Criss's guitar or Wacholz's drums, the last remnants of the original Avatar lineup were swept away, and the band that made Dead Winter Dead, The Wake Of Magellan and even Poets And Madmen (yes, even with Jon's vocals) had much more in common with Trans-Siberian Orchestra then it did with Sirens or Dungeons. They carried on as Savatage for a while, but when TSO became such a big phenomenon (with a Savatage song, no less) the writing was on the wall, and Savatage was laid to rest.
The thing is, though, to me, there is a very clear continuity between Old Savatage and Newer Savatage (and TSO as well). In addition to Jon, Johnny and Caffery carried over from one era to the next, and Paul O'Neill and Bob Kinkel continued to shape the band in the studio just as they had before. Furthermore, the direction the band took in their later years, and continued with as TSO, was something that had been in development as far back as Hall Of The Mountain King, and greatly expanded upon with Gutter and Streets. The roots of TSO reach pretty far back into the Savatage discography, and there are strong ties between the band pre-'93 and post'93, despite the extensive changes to the music and roster. Savatage never died for me, it evolved, and while I can understand if older Svatage fans dislike later 'Tage and TSO, I don't think it can be ignored that the band who made DWD did still retain some ties to the old days.
As for Savatage tours - I don't care for that as much, I'd be happy if they decide to just be a studio band and release an album every 3-4 years in-between TSO tours.
I'm actually going to agree with this. I am much more interested in hearing new Savatage studio material then seeing a full blown Savatage tour, largely because TSO, JOP, and/or CIIC can (and probably will) play the new songs live, as well as continuing to play older Savatage songs. If the band does continue to do Savatage records, and then those songs get played live by their various active projects, that would be more then enough to satisfy me.
Wow...
I really love *all* eras of Savatage...and I even catch flack for being luke warm on Edge of Thorns. But I think Savatage PEAKED with DWD and WOM. Those albums are stunning.
I agree with DWD being one of the peaks of the band's career. IMO, the pinnacle of Savatage as songwriters was Gutter Ballet though DWD.
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I'm listening to Gutter Ballet right now...oh, man it doesn't get any better than Hounds for me. Everything about it is pure 1000% the Savatage I love, the composition, the playing, the lyrics, the vocals, that teeth gritting solo, the dramatic haunting mood. They could have made a dozen records in this style and I would have bought and worshipped every one!!!
I'm going to restart the song over... :lol
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I'm listening to Gutter Ballet right now...oh, man it doesn't get any better than Hounds for me. Everything about it is pure 1000% the Savatage I love, the composition, the playing, the lyrics, the vocals, that teeth gritting solo, the dramatic haunting mood. They could have made a dozen records in this style and I would have bought and worshipped every one!!!
I'm going to restart the song over... :lol
Listening to GB as well. Awesome album from start to finish. Just listened to HOTMK as well. Hmm. Thinking of having a Sava-day tomorrow.
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:lol
It's funny how it goes like that sometimes! I started the day with HOTMK, then Streets, then back to GB, and now I'm nearly through with Edge of Thorns. Watch, I'll probably not listen to Savatage for months now but today it was a perfect musical experience!
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I agree with DWD being one of the peaks of the band's career. IMO, the pinnacle of Savatage as songwriters was Gutter Ballet though DWD.
Actually, they're pretty consistent since HotMK.
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I'm listening to Gutter Ballet right now...oh, man it doesn't get any better than Hounds for me. Everything about it is pure 1000% the Savatage I love, the composition, the playing, the lyrics, the vocals, that teeth gritting solo, the dramatic haunting mood. They could have made a dozen records in this style and I would have bought and worshipped every one!!!
I'm going to restart the song over... :lol
GB is such an uneven album to me. I mean, ya...you've got the title track, and Hounds and When the Crowds are Gone....but you've also got She's In Love and Mentally Yours. :|
Very high highs, and very low lows.
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GB is such an uneven album to me. I mean, ya...you've got the title track, and Hounds and When the Crowds are Gone....but you've also got She's In Love and Mentally Yours. :|
Very high highs, and very low lows.
To be fair, I seem to remember Jon Oliva mentioning once that She's In Love was written as a sort of joke, poking fun at all the over-sexuallized hair metal songs that were popular at the time trying to pass off pure lust and sex as "love". As for Mentally Yours....... well, the song is about a guy with severe mental disorders, so perhaps it is appropriate that the song itself sound a little schizophrenic! I actually like that whole Timmy Trilogy that closes out the album. It has a very Alice Cooper vibe that I really dig.
Overall, I really, really love Gutter Ballet. While HOTMK was their first truly great album, GB was something totally new and unique, which saw Savatage really spreading their creative wings wide for the first time. It is also probably the only album in the entire Savatage discography where you get a little bit of almost every side of the band, from Sirens-esque 80's metal to the more mainstream and Broadway style material that defined them in their later years. Quite possibly the closest thing Savatage has to a truly definitive record. :metal
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I don't know why but I always had a really hard time getting into Gutter Ballet. I like it better now, but it just didn't do anything for me years ago, however, When the Crowds are Gone is a great song and I even remember seeing a music video for it on MTV once way back in the day.
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I'm listening to Gutter Ballet right now...oh, man it doesn't get any better than Hounds for me. Everything about it is pure 1000% the Savatage I love, the composition, the playing, the lyrics, the vocals, that teeth gritting solo, the dramatic haunting mood. They could have made a dozen records in this style and I would have bought and worshipped every one!!!
I'm going to restart the song over... :lol
GB is such an uneven album to me. I mean, ya...you've got the title track, and Hounds and When the Crowds are Gone....but you've also got She's In Love and Mentally Yours. :|
Very high highs, and very low lows.
Never had a problem with either of those. I enjoyed the changes in style. This was my first Sava album and I was blown away. The only negative was Jon's voice on the ballads but it certainly wasn't a dealbreaker.
I remember taking the album round to a mates house the day I bought it, all excited, telling him I'd found this awesome band- put it on and he hated it. :biggrin:
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Never had a problem with either of those. I enjoyed the changes in style. This was my first Sava album and I was blown away. The only negative was Jon's voice on the ballads but it certainly wasn't a dealbreaker.
I remember taking the album round to a mates house the day I bought it, all excited, telling him I'd found this awesome band- put it on and he hated it. :biggrin:
:iagree:
Also, I love the total metal lyrics of Mentally Yours!
His tension life
He beats the wife
Douse the cat with gasoline
Gotta try
The other side
He just has to get away
That's when it all began
Timmy lost his mind
Was just a matter of time
Before he went crazy
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You know, Jon spends a lot of time explaining why he can't take time away from TSO to do Savatage. But, that's not really the situation, is it? Really, doing something with Savatage would be instead of doing JOP or CIIC type projects.
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You know, Jon spends a lot of time explaining why he can't take time away from TSO to do Savatage. But, that's not really the situation, is it? Really, doing something with Savatage would be instead of doing JOP or CIIC type projects.
Yeah I don't quite understand the "no time or audience for Savatage" and then announcing JOP will play ProgPower next year doing the whole of Streets...
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My understanding of the situation is that because of TSO, Jon and the rest of Savatage are on opposite schedules. When Jon is writing the TSO albums with Paul; that's when Caffery, Middleton, Pitrelli and Plate can do their side projects. When TSO is on tour with Caffery, Middleton, Pitrelli and Plate; that's when Jon does JOP and his solo stuff. The only time they are all together is when they are recording as TSO. That is why it is more feasible right now for them to record some Savatage songs then to tour as Savatage; because recording a few Sava-tracks while working on TSO records doesn't stop the big TSO machine, whereas a Savatage summer tour would.
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Some killer live footage from Greece in 2002: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7vIkhxtLg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7vIkhxtLg)
I think it says a lot about the level of success TSO has attained if Savatage can turn their backs on these sorts of crowds. I also think the band stilled had a lot of fire left in them back in 2001-2002, and it's all the more criminal that they didn't continue on making albums after P&M. They really seem like they stilled had a lot more to say, even a t such a late point in their careers.
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Finally got the narrated version of Streets. Interesting that they used the song DT Jesus and Jesus Saves is not on here at all. I guess the original version was supposed to be on there instead if this version is anything to go by.
Dark Master, can you enlighten me with some info on this?
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Ah............now I really dig DTF..............a dedicated Savatage thread :hefdaddy
I've sorta lost touch with many of my favourite bands over recent years in the metal area. I've kept up with the melodic rock stuff (most of which is pretty average) but there's only so much time in the day.
Savatage may not quite swing it for my fave album of all time but across their catalogue they'd be right in amongst it for my favourite band ever along with a couple of others.
good stuff guys and thanks for a quick, comprehensive update via this thread :tup
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Finally got the narrated version of Streets. Interesting that they used the song DT Jesus and Jesus Saves is not on here at all. I guess the original version was supposed to be on there instead if this version is anything to go by.
Dark Master, can you enlighten me with some info on this?
It's the same song basically but I think there are some differences in the composition. DT Jesus was originally released as a bonus track on From The Gutter To The Stage.
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Finally got the narrated version of Streets. Interesting that they used the song DT Jesus and Jesus Saves is not on here at all. I guess the original version was supposed to be on there instead if this version is anything to go by.
Dark Master, can you enlighten me with some info on this?
Listened to it the other day on Spotify. Not sure the narration adds anything positive tbh and although I like the DT Jesus track I prefer Jesus Saves (that tone!). Shame we#ll never get the full presentation.
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Some killer live footage from Greece in 2002: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7vIkhxtLg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7vIkhxtLg)
I think it says a lot about the level of success TSO has attained if Savatage can turn their backs on these sorts of crowds. I also think the band stilled had a lot of fire left in them back in 2001-2002, and it's all the more criminal that they didn't continue on making albums after P&M. They really seem like they stilled had a lot more to say, even a t such a late point in their careers.
Didn't the line-up go through some drastic changes after the P&M release? Zak left. Pitrelli was gone. They had Jack Frost on guitar (until they asked him to leave) and Damond Jiniya doing Zak's vocals. Plus, they were having much more success with the TSO holiday juggernaut than they did with Savatage.
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Some killer live footage from Greece in 2002: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7vIkhxtLg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7vIkhxtLg)
I think it says a lot about the level of success TSO has attained if Savatage can turn their backs on these sorts of crowds. I also think the band stilled had a lot of fire left in them back in 2001-2002, and it's all the more criminal that they didn't continue on making albums after P&M. They really seem like they stilled had a lot more to say, even a t such a late point in their careers.
Didn't the line-up go through some drastic changes after the P&M release? Zak left. Pitrelli was gone. They had Jack Frost on guitar (until they asked him to leave) and Damond Jiniya doing Zak's vocals. Plus, they were having much more success with the TSO holiday juggernaut than they did with Savatage.
Zak left before Poets and Madmen was recorded and Oliva did the vocals.
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Finally got the narrated version of Streets. Interesting that they used the song DT Jesus and Jesus Saves is not on here at all. I guess the original version was supposed to be on there instead if this version is anything to go by.
Dark Master, can you enlighten me with some info on this?
Well, the story I've always heard (and I believe this is on both Savatage.com and the Sava article on Wikipedia) was that the record label wanted the band to "rock up" Jesus Saves so that the album would have a hard hitting first single. However, I noticed in the liner credits for the new Narrated Streets that Jon says it was Criss and himself who basically begged Paul to let them make JS into a more metal song to help make the album sound more like a Savatage record, I would guess because at the time the band was probably still reluctant to go the full on Broadway metal route.
Personally, I like the new version, but while the narration does flesh out the story of the record considerably, I do agree that it doesn't really help with the presentation, and if anything it breaks up the flow of the album. Furthermore, while some clarification on the album's plot is appreciated, the story wasn't really that difficult to figure out anyways. If any Savatage album needs narration to make the story understandable, it would be the Wake Of Magellan! :biggrin: The story for Poets And Madmen isn't exactly crystal either, but since that album was never intended to be a rock opera in the first place, and Paul just decided to shoehorn a story into it, I don't really care if i can understand what the fuck that record is supposed to be about. The basic themes of the album, like insanity and spirituality, come through just fine as is.
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Some killer live footage from Greece in 2002: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7vIkhxtLg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nr7vIkhxtLg)
I think it says a lot about the level of success TSO has attained if Savatage can turn their backs on these sorts of crowds. I also think the band stilled had a lot of fire left in them back in 2001-2002, and it's all the more criminal that they didn't continue on making albums after P&M. They really seem like they stilled had a lot more to say, even a t such a late point in their careers.
Didn't the line-up go through some drastic changes after the P&M release? Zak left. Pitrelli was gone. They had Jack Frost on guitar (until they asked him to leave) and Damond Jiniya doing Zak's vocals. Plus, they were having much more success with the TSO holiday juggernaut than they did with Savatage.
Zak left during the recording of the album right before he was supposed to record his vocals, and Al officially left much earlier, although he did still record a couple of solos for the album.
As for the success of TSO, obviously once that took off, Savatage was going to take a back seat, but as we have debated here before, if the band members can make time for their side projects, like Jon Oliva's Pain, Circle II Circle, Machines Of Grace, the Chris Caffery band, and others, then I really think there isn't anything actually stopping them from doing a Savatage thing. I think the big holdout that is actually preventing the making a new Savatage record is Paul being up to his neck in TSO 365 days of the year, combined with the fact that Jon doesn't seem to want to tour with Savatage without a new album to promote. I'm sure the scheduling of TSO makes doing anything Savatage related a hassle, but, again, if they can find the time to do all that other stuff, they could make the time for Savatage. At least, the band could. As for Paul, though, I'm not so sure, and that is what I think is really holding the band back.
At least we have JOP, though. I'm very grateful Jon can at least find the time to do that and make the records that Savatage probably would have made had they continued on after P&M. Festival was fantastic, and while I loved Jon solo record, I'm practically salivating for the new Pain album. I believe I herd Jon say in an interview that he plans on having it out sometime in the middle of next year, and after doing something differest on his solo album, the next JOP record is going to be his heaviest, darkest thing yet! :metal
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I always thought the Streets story was pretty bland. There's nothing really there and it is pretty straightforward and simple. Haven't gone through the whole cd yet, but I didn't mind the narration. Thanks for the explanation regarding Jesus Saves, I did quite like the version we got on this remaster. I think it would have been wise to include Jesus Saves as a bonus though.
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Finally got the narrated version of Streets. Interesting that they used the song DT Jesus and Jesus Saves is not on here at all. I guess the original version was supposed to be on there instead if this version is anything to go by.
Dark Master, can you enlighten me with some info on this?
Well, the story I've always heard (and I believe this is on both Savatage.com and the Sava article on Wikipedia) was that the record label wanted the band to "rock up" Jesus Saves so that the album would have a hard hitting first single. However, I noticed in the liner credits for the new Narrated Streets that Jon says it was Criss and himself who basically begged Paul to let them make JS into a more metal song to help make the album sound more like a Savatage record, I would guess because at the time the band was probably still reluctant to go the full on Broadway metal route.
Personally, I like the new version, but while the narration does flesh out the story of the record considerably, I do agree that it doesn't really help with the presentation, and if anything it breaks up the flow of the album. Furthermore, while some clarification on the album's plot is appreciated, the story wasn't really that difficult to figure out anyways. If any Savatage album needs narration to make the story understandable, it would be the Wake Of Magellan! :biggrin: The story for Poets And Madmen isn't exactly crystal either, but since that album was never intended to be a rock opera in the first place, and Paul just decided to shoehorn a story into it, I don't really care if i can understand what the fuck that record is supposed to be about. The basic themes of the album, like insanity and spirituality, come through just fine as is.
I was under the impression that it was loosely based on journalist Kevin Carter.
Regarding Paul O' Neill and a new Savatage.... Couldn't the band write something without him? Or does own their asses or something?
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Finally got the narrated version of Streets. Interesting that they used the song DT Jesus and Jesus Saves is not on here at all. I guess the original version was supposed to be on there instead if this version is anything to go by.
Dark Master, can you enlighten me with some info on this?
Well, the story I've always heard (and I believe this is on both Savatage.com and the Sava article on Wikipedia) was that the record label wanted the band to "rock up" Jesus Saves so that the album would have a hard hitting first single. However, I noticed in the liner credits for the new Narrated Streets that Jon says it was Criss and himself who basically begged Paul to let them make JS into a more metal song to help make the album sound more like a Savatage record, I would guess because at the time the band was probably still reluctant to go the full on Broadway metal route.
Personally, I like the new version, but while the narration does flesh out the story of the record considerably, I do agree that it doesn't really help with the presentation, and if anything it breaks up the flow of the album. Furthermore, while some clarification on the album's plot is appreciated, the story wasn't really that difficult to figure out anyways. If any Savatage album needs narration to make the story understandable, it would be the Wake Of Magellan! :biggrin: The story for Poets And Madmen isn't exactly crystal either, but since that album was never intended to be a rock opera in the first place, and Paul just decided to shoehorn a story into it, I don't really care if i can understand what the fuck that record is supposed to be about. The basic themes of the album, like insanity and spirituality, come through just fine as is.
I was under the impression that it was loosely based on journalist Kevin Carter.
Regarding Paul O' Neill and a new Savatage.... Couldn't the band write something without him? Or does own their asses or something?
It is, ostensibly, about Kevin Carter, but because much of the album was written without the intention of it being a rock opera, combined with the fact that Paul pretty much came up with the concept about Carter at the last minute essentially made the story of P&M a convoluted mess. Paul typically writes his stories first and then works with Jon and the others when writing the songs to the already written story. P&M, however, was already mostly written musically before Paul even got involved in the record, and the basics of the lyrics and vocal melodies were already under way when Paul made a last second decision to turn the album into a rock opera. Jon Oliva was initially rather annoyed with this, as he had become sick of rock operas at that point and wanted to make the new Savatage album more of a straight forward metal record, and that may have played a role in Jon decision to just start a whole new band for his future music. (Ironically, Paul originally wanted to make the TSO album Night Castle a regular record, but it was only after Jon repeatedly badgered him by asking "What's the story" during the writing process of that record that Paul once again came up with a last-minute plot.)
As for why Savatage can't or won't do anything without Paul, I'm not sure, but I strongly suspect that as much as Jon may want to work without Paul's interference, he may fear that without Paul's vision, he cannot make an album majestic enough to bear the name Savatage. I personally constantly flip back and forth on the issue of whether or not the JOP records would have been worthy of bearing the Savatage name as is, as I do miss the epic scope of albums like DWD and TWOM. However, if P&M is any indication, Jon really wanted to move back to a more metal sound for Savatage and leave the rock operas and the neoclassical instrumentals to TSO, and if you read any of his interviews from 2002 or 2003, his plans for the future sound of Savatage do sound an awful lot like what he has made with JOP.
It may also be that Jon doesn't want arrange the schedule for his non-TSO projects around TSO. Getting the Savatage guys from TSO would mean that Jon would only be able to do Savatage while TSO was doing nothing, and it may require Caffery and the guys sitting out a TSO tour every once in a while (and loosing a lot of money). I'm not certain how feasible that would be, although comments from Caffery and Middleton would indicate that they would at least find a Savatage re-activation worthwhile. Zak has also said that he would be up for a Savatage thing, if and when it ever happens, so the lack of Savatage is not due to the apathy of any of the members....... except for Jon.
Ultimately, it may be that Jon just lost interest in the idea of "Savatage" as a brand name. Most Savatage fans already view Jon as Savatage anyways, and rightly so. Since Savatage never really broke into the mainstream, their fanbase is relatively small, but also probably, on average, more well informed about the band itself. As most Savatage fans know who Jon Oliva is, his name is nearly as marketable as Savatage (possibly even moreso, as he is known as one of the major songwriters for TSO). Couple this with the fact that the Savatage name has shown itself to lack mainstream appeal (Christmas Eve, anyone?), and there is really little reason for Jon to actually want to go out under the name Savatage rather then as Jon Oliva's Whatever. As long as it has Oliva's name on it, most Savatage fans will buy it.
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Wow, thanks for all of the information. What you said about Jon being afraid to not have the vision that Paul has to make the sound majestic enough contradicts what Jon felt about making a straight ahead metal album, don't you think? Not that I am doubting your story, but I kind of think Jon wasn't sure what he wanted at that point. I can understand Jon's frustration a bit regarding the P&M incident. He probably felt like 'you have your rock opera with TSO, let's make this more of a metal record.' Isn't that exactly what he did when he "left" Savatage the first time? He put together Doctor Butcher. It's funny actually. The first time I saw them was when they played L'amour in Brooklyn for the Handful of Rain tour. A friend and myself were outside chatting with the band till 5 in the morning and we spoke extensively with Zak and Jon. Jon was telling us about the Doctor Butcher CD and how dark he wanted it to be and I remember him comparing it to Type O Negative (which I did fail to see once picking up the Doctor Butcher CD), but he was so excited about it.
I think I probably speak for a lot of Savatage fans with saying that even though Jon IS Savatage, to me it's not the same without Zak singing. As long as Jon is on stage doing something (rhythm guitar, keys), Savatage fans are happy. I would love to see just one more album and tour before it's too late.
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Wow, thanks for all of the information. What you said about Jon being afraid to not have the vision that Paul has to make the sound majestic enough contradicts what Jon felt about making a straight ahead metal album, don't you think? Not that I am doubting your story, but I kind of think Jon wasn't sure what he wanted at that point. I can understand Jon's frustration a bit regarding the P&M incident. He probably felt like 'you have your rock opera with TSO, let's make this more of a metal record.' Isn't that exactly what he did when he "left" Savatage the first time? He put together Doctor Butcher. It's funny actually. The first time I saw them was when they played L'amour in Brooklyn for the Handful of Rain tour. A friend and myself were outside chatting with the band till 5 in the morning and we spoke extensively with Zak and Jon. Jon was telling us about the Doctor Butcher CD and how dark he wanted it to be and I remember him comparing it to Type O Negative (which I did fail to see once picking up the Doctor Butcher CD), but he was so excited about it.
I think I probably speak for a lot of Savatage fans with saying that even though Jon IS Savatage, to me it's not the same without Zak singing. As long as Jon is on stage doing something (rhythm guitar, keys), Savatage fans are happy. I would love to see just one more album and tour before it's too late.
I do agree that Jon's desire to pursue a more distinctly metallic musical direction would contradict the possibility that Jon feels he needs Paul to make Savatage more epic and regal, but, as you said, Jon probably did not know what exactly he wanted to do at that point. It must be remembered that when P&M was first released, it revived a rather muted response from much of the Savatage fanbase. The younger fans who had discovered the band durring the Zak era were sad to see Zak go and were disappointed by the less symphonic direction of the new album, while the older, more metal fans, who upon hearing that the new record would be more of a metal album, and that Jon was going to be singing all of the vocals once again, got their hopes up for a full on return to the HOTMK style, which of course didn't happen. P&M, ultimately, fell somewhere between the two distinct styles of Savatage, and with the fans being so divided at that point, the album satisfied no-one, despite being a solid record in it's own right. (I should add that over the years, it seems increasing numbers of Savatage fans have gradually warmed up to the album, and can now appriciate it on it's own merits.)
Considering this, I would imagine that Jon didn't know exactly what to do after P&M. He clearly wanted to go back to more of a metal sound, and he also wanted to be more independent of Paul, but many fans (especially in Europe, Savatage's strongest market) were still longing for Zak Stevens and the epic rock operas of Paul O'Niell. That contradiction, combined with TSO eating up more and more of everyone's time, is probably what led Jon to decide to make his next record a side project rather then a Savatage album. 'Tage Mahal was originally going to be a Jon Oliva solo record, but when Jon hooked up with the guys from Circle II Circle, JOP became an actual band, and perhaps quite accidentally, became a sort of surrogate-Savatage, both for Jon, and for the fans. In fact, CIIC had already shown Jon that an ex-member of Savatage could start a new band that was very 'Tage-esque; why couldn't he, the primary song writer of Savatage, do the same? When JOP actually started to build up momentum as more and more Savatage fans started to catch on to the new band, the necessity of Savatage, which was complicated by the massive success and commitments of TSO, became marginalized. Jon didn't need Savatage anymore to get his music out, and if the rise of JOP is any indication, it seems most fans are willing to make due with whatever else Jon gives them.
(I should note that while I am basing a lot of the above on comments I have read in interviews with Jon and others, a lot of it is conjecture on my part. I obviously don't know what was going on in Jon's head back in 2002-2003. However, based on what he said in interviews at the time, as well as the benefit of hindsight looking back now at how the situation developed, I think that is a reasonable explanation of how things went down in the Savatage camp after P&M.)
And yes, I do miss Zak in Savatage. As much as I love CIIC, it's not exactly the same, as even on the albums where Jon and Caffery contributed to the writing, Zak was still the primary song-writer. Something I have wanted to see for a long time would be a sort of merger between CIIC and JOP. I'm not sure how possible that would be, but it would be one step closer to rebuilding Savatage again.
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Honestly, I just can't wrap my brain around how someone would be disappointed with P&M in any way, shape or form. To me it's a perfect mix of both worlds with an outstanding performance from Jon on the vocals. It's easily one of their best albums, imo, and it always makes me kinda sad to read people thinking otherwise (yes, I realize it's music and all but still...).
And I'm glad they didn't went with HOTMK style for it, as great as that is it would have been a mistake to repeat themselves like that.
I've said it before and I'll repeat myself because this thread made me crave another 'Tage album again. Just go in the fucking studio and make music, damn it. Fuck touring!
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I'm with you, abydos. I'd love some new studio material from Savatage. I don't think it's in the cards, though. :(
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I do agree that Jon's desire to pursue a more distinctly metallic musical direction would contradict the possibility that Jon feels he needs Paul to make Savatage more epic and regal, but, as you said, Jon probably did not know what exactly he wanted to do at that point. It must be remembered that when P&M was first released, it revived a rather muted response from much of the Savatage fanbase. The younger fans who had discovered the band durring the Zak era were sad to see Zak go and were disappointed by the less symphonic direction of the new album, while the older, more metal fans, who upon hearing that the new record would be more of a metal album, and that Jon was going to be singing all of the vocals once again, got their hopes up for a full on return to the HOTMK style, which of course didn't happen. P&M, ultimately, fell somewhere between the two distinct styles of Savatage, and with the fans being so divided at that point, the album satisfied no-one, despite being a solid record in it's own right. (I should add that over the years, it seems increasing numbers of Savatage fans have gradually warmed up to the album, and can now appriciate it on it's own merits.)
Considering this, I would imagine that Jon didn't know exactly what to do after P&M. He clearly wanted to go back to more of a metal sound, and he also wanted to be more independent of Paul, but many fans (especially in Europe, Savatage's strongest market) were still longing for Zak Stevens and the epic rock operas of Paul O'Niell. That contradiction, combined with TSO eating up more and more of everyone's time, is probably what led Jon to decide to make his next record a side project rather then a Savatage album. 'Tage Mahal was originally going to be a Jon Oliva solo record, but when Jon hooked up with the guys from Circle II Circle, JOP became an actual band, and perhaps quite accidentally, became a sort of surrogate-Savatage, both for Jon, and for the fans. In fact, CIIC had already shown Jon that an ex-member of Savatage could start a new band that was very 'Tage-esque; why couldn't he, the primary song writer of Savatage, do the same? When JOP actually started to build up momentum as more and more Savatage fans started to catch on to the new band, the necessity of Savatage, which was complicated by the massive success and commitments of TSO, became marginalized. Jon didn't need Savatage anymore to get his music out, and if the rise of JOP is any indication, it seems most fans are willing to make due with whatever else Jon gives them.
(I should note that while I am basing a lot of the above on comments I have read in interviews with Jon and others, a lot of it is conjecture on my part. I obviously don't know what was going on in Jon's head back in 2002-2003. However, based on what he said in interviews at the time, as well as the benefit of hindsight looking back now at how the situation developed, I think that is a reasonable explanation of how things went down in the Savatage camp after P&M.)
And yes, I do miss Zak in Savatage. As much as I love CIIC, it's not exactly the same, as even on the albums where Jon and Caffery contributed to the writing, Zak was still the primary song-writer. Something I have wanted to see for a long time would be a sort of merger between CIIC and JOP. I'm not sure how possible that would be, but it would be one step closer to rebuilding Savatage again.
I haven't listened to P&M since it first came out. I admit I was a bit disappointed with it after loving TWOM. Maybe it was that turn into a more metal sound that turned me off originally. I'll have to give it another listen one day.
Now the original story of Zak leaving was supposedly because of him wanting to spend more time with his family, though many people found that odd since a year later he was putting together CIIC. What I later heard was that the real reason he left was because he was promised more vocal parts in TSO which Paul O'Neill later changed. Is that the real story?
I'm going to see Jon Oliva's Storytellers next week in NJ. I just happened to be looking up Savatage stuff on Facebook when I came across it. It looks like it's going to be awesome.
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My understanding about Zak leaving is that his family issues were genuine. He had a kid born while the band was touring for TWOM, and he had just bought a new house in 2000, so he wasn't exactly eager to go out on tour with Savatage again so soon. What I heard from both Jon and Zak is that Zak wanted to wait another 6 months or so to spend time with his family and get them settled in their new home before going back out on tour. The would have pushed back the release of P&M to around October of 2001, which would have meant that Savatage would have needed to wait until after the TSO winter tour to go out in early 2002 in support of the new record. At the time, since the album had already been delayed multiple times (originally slated for early 2000, then later 2000, then early 2001), Jon decided to press ahead without Zak and hire a replacement.
However, considering how divided the fan base became over Zak departure, the mixed reaction to a Zak-less P&M, and the fact that going out on tour as planed in 2001 meant that the band was away from their families during the chaos of 9/11 (which Jon described as something of a breaking point for some members in the band), perhaps, in retrospect, it would have been better to just delay the album for another six months......
As for Zak in TSO, i remember hearing in an interview that Zak and and Paul had long talks about Zak's potential involvement in TSO, and that when TSO was first getting off the ground, it was important to differentiate it from Savatage by spotlighting the new singers on the TSO album (however, since many more well informed metal fans at the time were already describing TSO as Christmas Savatage, a perception that persists to this day, I think the degree of success in distinguishing TSO from Savatage is debatable at best). Zak did sing lead vocals in the song The Dark on the TSO album Beethoven's Last Night (that same album featured a couple songs with Jon on lead vox as well), so I think, to a certain extent, Paul was open to the possibility of Zak becoming more prominent in TSO. He does sing backing vocals on all the albums.
However, I have also heard that Zak was really not happy with the Savatage/TSO situation at the time, and that discontent probably played a role in his decision to leave the band. Why exactly he was unhappy, I'm not sure, but considering his relative lack of involvement in TSO (which is where the money was), and the increasingly destabilizing impact TSO's success had on the continued existence of Savatage, it may not be too difficult to guess....
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So it's apparent that both scenarios held some water in some aspect.
What did you think of the new Jon Oliva release?
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I loved the new Oliva record, personally, and it's right behind the new DT album for my record of the year so far. Upon first listen, I didn't think it was all that different from JOP, but the more times I heard it, the more uniqueness I find in the record. It definitely could not have been released as a JOP or Savatage album; it has a very retro 70's prog rock vibe that, while present in many of Jon's other works, is far more prominent on Raise The Curtain then anything else he has done before. The whole album was really solid, although my favourite tracks from the record would probably be Ten Years and Father Time, although I Know, Big Brother, Stalker and Can't Get Away are all excellent, and every track really stands out on it's own merit. Definitely one of the musical highlights for me in recent years.
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I didn't give it much of a chance cause a few other albums were out around the same time. I'm enjoying this new version of Streets so I should get that one out again.
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Sounds like I'll have to check them both out, the new Oliva and the new version of Streets.
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So many respected posters in this thread. I really wish I could contribute. :-[
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So many respected posters in this thread. I really wish I could contribute. :-[
You never listened to Savatage? Or you could never get into them?
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So I went to the Jon Oliva Storytellers tour in Joliet last night, braving death by taking a three hour ride in a snowstorm, and let me say that it was totally worth it as the show was fucking awesome! :metal As the storytellers tour was put together to predominanatly highlight the more mellow side of the Mountain King, the two and a half hour setlist featured a lot of ballads and more proggy tunes from the Savatage/JOP catalog, as well as a few tracks off his new solo record. In between a lot of the songs, Jon told many humorous stories about his past with Savatage and JOP, many of which I had never even heard of before! The track list was as follows:
Visions (opening played over the PA)
Father Time
Ten Years
Out On The Streets
Lady In Disguise (album version)
Summer's Rain
Jesus Saves (gospel version from the Narrated Streets)
New York City Don't Mean Nothing
Strange Reality
Tonight He Grins Again
If I Go Away
Beatles Cover *
Miles Away/
Sleep/
All That I Bleed
Look At The World
Walk Upon The Water
Fly Away
Handful Of Rain/
Stare Into The Sun/
Castles Burning/
Chance/
Alone You Breathe
Someone/Souls
I Can't Get Away
When The Crowds Are Gone.
*( I don't remember the name of the exact Beatles song he played. Jon didn't say the name of the song, and I didn't recognize it, although Jon did say it was pretty obscure)
Jon's Band for these shows featured Chris Kinder (from JOP) on drums, Jason Jennings (also from JOP) on bass and himself on vocals, guitar and keyboards.
Overall, an amazing and unique performance from the one greats of our time! :metal :metal :metal
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I was supposed to go to that, but shit came up. I was really pissed off that I had to miss it.
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I was supposed to go to that, but shit came up. I was really pissed off that I had to miss it.
Damn, that sucks. I saw a number of people there recording parts of the show on their phones, so I'm sure some of it will end up on Youtube. I almost didn't go myself because of the weather, but eventually forced myself to make the trip, and I'm glad I did.
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I loved the new Oliva record, personally, and it's right behind the new DT album for my record of the year so far. Upon first listen, I didn't think it was all that different from JOP, but the more times I heard it, the more uniqueness I find in the record. It definitely could not have been released as a JOP or Savatage album; it has a very retro 70's prog rock vibe that, while present in many of Jon's other works, is far more prominent on Raise The Curtain then anything else he has done before. The whole album was really solid, although my favourite tracks from the record would probably be Ten Years and Father Time, although I Know, Big Brother, Stalker and Can't Get Away are all excellent, and every track really stands out on it's own merit. Definitely one of the musical highlights for me in recent years.
I found it a bit too Broadway when I listened the first time and never went back. Time to try again. methinks.
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I was supposed to go to that, but shit came up. I was really pissed off that I had to miss it.
Damn, that sucks. I saw a number of people there recording parts of the show on their phones, so I'm sure some of it will end up on Youtube. I almost didn't go myself because of the weather, but eventually forced myself to make the trip, and I'm glad I did.
None of his former band members made a guest appearance?
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I was supposed to go to that, but shit came up. I was really pissed off that I had to miss it.
Damn, that sucks. I saw a number of people there recording parts of the show on their phones, so I'm sure some of it will end up on Youtube. I almost didn't go myself because of the weather, but eventually forced myself to make the trip, and I'm glad I did.
None of his former band members made a guest appearance?
Unfortunately, no, but to be honest, I didn't think they would anyways. Caffery, Pitrelli, Middleton and Plate would not be showing up since they are on tour with TSO, so an appearance from any of them would be very impractical, if not impossible. As for Doc, he has pretty much remained out of the Savatage world since 1994, aside from playing a couple gigs with Jon is 2003-04, and appearing on the first JOP record. I think the only one who may even have really wanted to show up, and would have been able to to so, would have been Zak, but as this was explicitly a Jon Oliva solo show, having Zak there would have been inappropriate.
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True. I completely forgot about the TSO tour for a moment.
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There was only one Savatage song that made mainstream radio airplay in the Philippines: "All That I Bleed" The first time I heard it, I was one the verge of tears. It still remains as one of my favorite songs to this day. When I searched for a live recording for the song on Youtube, I found that they always dedicate this song to Criss. F*ck, that just made this song more laden with emotions for me.
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Coincidentally, there's a podcast called "Noize In The Attic" whose latest podcast (2013 #46) is primarily a large interview with Jon Oliva where he talks a lot about Savatage past and present. I'm only about 1/3 of the way through the 1hr50min podcast. But, it's pretty good so far.
One interesting thing I caught at the end was a mention of 'Streets' on Broadway. :metal
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I haven't watched this properly yet but , at first glance, someone seems to have done a half reasonable job of a "history of Savatage" amateur Youtube vid here with some cool footage/photos etc.......
I have noticed at some points it goes a bit blurry and the red text can get annoying but it's about as close to a decent mini-doco on Savatage, C2C, TSO , JOP etc...as I've seen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zat573XOnHI
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I watched that doc; it was actually very well done.
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Coincidentally, there's a podcast called "Noize In The Attic" whose latest podcast (2013 #46) is primarily a large interview with Jon Oliva where he talks a lot about Savatage past and present. I'm only about 1/3 of the way through the 1hr50min podcast. But, it's pretty good so far.
One interesting thing I caught at the end was a mention of 'Streets' on Broadway. :metal
That was a really good interview. Jon was very, very candid in there about his opinions on a Savatage reunion and the current status of the Savatage-TSO situation. Of course, as a fan, it's still disappointing to hear that he doesn't really want to do anything under the Savatage banner anytime soon, but, to be fair, I can certainly understand his point of view.
I haven't watched this properly yet but , at first glance, someone seems to have done a half reasonable job of a "history of Savatage" amateur Youtube vid here with some cool footage/photos etc.......
I have noticed at some points it goes a bit blurry and the red text can get annoying but it's about as close to a decent mini-doco on Savatage, C2C, TSO , JOP etc...as I've seen.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zat573XOnHI
I saw that a while back. It is rather good and very comprehensive. However, it does have a few inaccuracies, such as mentioning a TSO tour right after CE&OS which didn't happen. (TSO first tour was in 1999, after their second x-mas album) I should go back and watch the whole thing again.
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Does anyone have an opinion on the latest CIIC (Seasons Will Fall)? I'm just sneaking my first listen and my initial impression is that it's pretty uninspired/by the numbers. Solid but not much more. Will give it a second spin in the next 48 hrs.
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Does anyone have an opinion on the latest CIIC (Seasons Will Fall)? I'm just sneaking my first listen and my initial impression is that it's pretty uninspired/by the numbers. Solid but not much more. Will give it a second spin in the next 48 hrs.
I was really impressed with Seasons Will Fall. I would actually rank it number two behind Burden of Truth (their best by far IMO). Very solid release; you might have to play it a few times to let it soak in.
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Will do - I agree about Burden of Truth btw. Almost wore out the CD playing Heal You there for a while.
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yeah, BoT is great. Love that chorus riff on Sentenced.
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Does anyone have an opinion on the latest CIIC (Seasons Will Fall)? I'm just sneaking my first listen and my initial impression is that it's pretty uninspired/by the numbers. Solid but not much more. Will give it a second spin in the next 48 hrs.
I was really impressed with Seasons Will Fall. I would actually rank it number two behind Burden of Truth (their best by far IMO). Very solid release; you might have to play it a few times to let it soak in.
I really loved it too. It took a while to grow for me too actually, but like Jason, it could be second fav also behind Burden.
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I haven't listened to SWF since around the time it came out, which was nearly a year ago. I enjoyed it, a lot, but it didn't really have much staying power with me. I should probably go back and revisit it, though. I enjoy CIIC immensely, although not quite as much as JOP or TSO. As much as I love Zak's voice, what I really adored most about Savatage was Jon's (and later, Paul's) songwriting, so I naturally tend to gravitate more towards the post-Savatage projects where Jon is one of the dominant songwriters.
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SWF is probably the CIIC album that needs the most time. For the style of music, it's amazing how much of a grower it is.
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Personally, I like the new version, but while the narration does flesh out the story of the record considerably, I do agree that it doesn't really help with the presentation, and if anything it breaks up the flow of the album. Furthermore, while some clarification on the album's plot is appreciated, the story wasn't really that difficult to figure out anyways.
I haven't had a chance to hear the new version yet, but this was something that immediately crossed my mind when it was first announced. I generally find that concept albums suffer in pacing when there is a bunch of narrative parts interlaced.
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So while I keep myself pretty well up to date with Jon Oliva interviews, I should really start keeping an eye open for Paul O'Neill interviews as well. As the other half of the main songwriting team of Savatage and TSO, Paul is the other guy who seems to have the most influence over the affairs in the world of SavaTSO, so anything he says on the subject of possible future Savatage happenings is worth checking out. As it happened, he did talk about Savatage in an interview he did back in January: https://www.radiometal.com/en/article/songs-and-legends-from-trans-siberian-orchestra-by-paul-oneill,133201 (https://www.radiometal.com/en/article/songs-and-legends-from-trans-siberian-orchestra-by-paul-oneill,133201)
He's the part where he talks about Savatage:
You’ve been one of the main lyricists and composers in Savatage for many years, but the band has been on hiatus for a long time. Do you think there’s a chance to see Savatage revived in the future?
Honestly, both Jon Oliva and myself would love that. Trans-Siberian Orchestra was started in ’93, which is right after Oliva left Savatage. For a while, we aimed to keep both bands going – especially when Criss Oliva was alive, so he took care of Savatage. But after Criss died, there was no original member left in Savatage, so Jon and I concentrated back on that. We had Handful Of Rain for Savatage, then Dead Winter Dead, then a TSO album, then a Savatage album, then a TSO album… Savatage albums are very complicated and expensive to make, and it’s the same thing for TSO albums. Both bands spend millions of dollars for one record, because it’s not two guitars, bass and drums. So the problem became time. We loved both bands, but, you know… The European promoters were like: “How come TSO’s not touring Europe?” the Asian promoters were like: “Why are you not touring in Asia?”, the record labels are like: “Where’s the Savatage album? Where’s the TSO album?” Jon and I were going 24 hours a day, seven days a week. The single biggest problem, Philippe, was simply time. We love Savatage, we wanted it to be the first progressive metal band, which I think they accomplished. Eddie Trunk, who’s very famous in America – he’s an expert on rock –, traced down Black Sabbath as the first heavy metal band, Ronnie James Dio as the one who came up with the metal signs, and Savatage as the first prog metal band. But we reached a limit with what you can do within one band. With TSO, because you have 24 lead singers, you can really push and try different things. You know, I’m nearly 60, and Jon’s not far behind me – and we have so much to do!
So we’d love to do another Savatage album and a farewell tour, or something. But again, we don’t want to do it for the money, we don’t want to do it cheaply. We want to do it right. The band has to rehearse for two months, put together a really great production. But our single biggest problem is that, honestly, every album we’re turning in is late. Night Castle was supposed to come out in 2005, and it came out in 2009. The last TSO album was supposed to come out in 2012, and we still haven’t turned it in yet. We’re just horrible at meeting deadlines. It’s funny you should mention that, by the way, because when we’re touring Europe this year, Philippe, we’re calling it the “Past, Present and Future Tour”. Most of the songs will be from TSO’s present albums; a couple of songs will be unreleased TSO songs – they haven’t been in the studio, but they’re done; and we’re going to do about four or five songs from Savatage, because a lot of Savatage members are in Trans-Siberian Orchestra. You can still get these songs on CD, but songs want to be performed live. What’s the point of a great book if it just sits on a library shelf? There’s a magic to live that you can’t capture on a record. So since we have so many of the Savatage guys in TSO, when we were doing rehearsals, somebody said: “Why don’t we do Savatage songs, since we’re gonna be over there?” I was like: “I think it’s a great idea”. And the members of TSO who were never in Savatage, they love Savatage, so they’re excited about it, too. So until we get around to putting Savatage back up for a regular tour, this is kind of like halfway in-between! Does that make any sense?!
Dovetailing quite nicely into that, I saw this video on youtube back in January of TSO playing Gutter Ballet on the most recent European tour which I meant to post a long time ago but kind of forgot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnLOkyUBsSI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnLOkyUBsSI)
I really hope they start to bring more Savatage songs into the stateside sets, we need more Savatage on this side of the pond. Between TSO playing more Sava-tunes on their tours and Jon mentioning maybe doing an album or EP or something, I'm still holding out that something may happen under the Savatage name in the future. I don't know what or when it will be exactly, but if Jon, Paul, Caffery and the guys are all still interested, then it has to happen! :metal
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I'm confident there will be something from Savatage in the future.
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I had no idea that Trans-Siberian Orchestra had started playing Gutter Ballet! And the vocalist totally nailed it, wow! Thanks for sharing.
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I wasn't too impressed with the singer until the end. For some reason I was sure his voice just isn't capable of doing what he did.
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Dovetailing quite nicely into that, I saw this video on youtube back in January of TSO playing Gutter Ballet on the most recent European tour which I meant to post a long time ago but kind of forgot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnLOkyUBsSI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnLOkyUBsSI)
:omg: :omg:
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Any diehard Savatage collectors need to check this out
Recorded on the famous 501 label ;)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAVATAGE-THE-WAKE-OF-MEGELLAN-THAI-CASSETTE-RARE-/351102932095?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:AU:3160
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Watched the GB video - now I've always thought it would sound better with a great singer than Jon but I guess I was wrong. Nathan James is a great singer but that just wasn't great.
Props to Jon. I'll take his version.
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Any diehard Savatage collectors need to check this out
Recorded on the famous 501 label ;)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAVATAGE-THE-WAKE-OF-MEGELLAN-THAI-CASSETTE-RARE-/351102932095?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:AU:3160
That looks so dodgy.
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Any diehard Savatage collectors need to check this out
Recorded on the famous 501 label ;)
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SAVATAGE-THE-WAKE-OF-MEGELLAN-THAI-CASSETTE-RARE-/351102932095?ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:AU:3160
What is the 501 label. That cassette looks so cheap, like the pack of 10 cassettes that Superstore used to sell in my area.
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Yeah, it's like someone lost the tape but then recorded it on a blank $3 tape from the CD or something.
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I was being sarcastic jj - I'm assuming it's a Teac 501 blank tape. Teac uses the "501" name on some of its other products too. In the listing he states that the record label is "501".
I just thought it was a funny Dodgy Brothers style listing ;)
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So we were right then. :lol
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How does this Shyster have a 100% rating
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How does this Shyster have a 100% rating
Everything else he is selling is legit, so I'm guessing it's just a one of, but seems strange. Perhaps he has never sold one of these dodgies before so has never had the opportunity to be given a lower rating.
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Well, it finally happened: https://www.wacken.com/en/woa2014/main-news/news/ansicht/article/woa-2015-erste-bands-bestaetigt-9725/ (https://www.wacken.com/en/woa2014/main-news/news/ansicht/article/woa-2015-erste-bands-bestaetigt-9725/)
Savatage is playing Wacken as part of TSO's appearance there next year.
I really hope something similar will happen in the US or, if not, at least having a DVD release or a livestream of the show for those of us who cannot afford to fly all the way to Germany.
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This is a positive.......hopefully it leads to something more.
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About time, fingers crossed for a studio album.
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Agreed. I said it before and I'll say it again: as awesome as it would be to see Savatage play live again, I'm craving a new album much, much more. Those guys still had a lot of creative gas left in the tank coming off of Poets And Madmen, they really should have made a few more albums before throwing in the towel.
At any rate, I read that Wacken 2015 sold out within 12 hours of the announcement. Props to the Savatage fans in Europe for their loyalty and patience! :metal
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So, with the Christmas season rolling in, I've been listening to TSO a bit heavier then I do for the rest of the year, which of course led to me listening to Savatage quite a bit (after having given them a break for a few months), which eventually led to me listening to quite a bit of JOP. As I listen to the JOP records, I find myself wondering: what would these songs have sounded like had they been done as "Savatage"? Granted, Jon is/was the main composer of Savatage, so the music is obviously there, but there has always been something about JOP that has never sounded quite up to the level of Savatage for me.
So I listened to the JOP records while trying to imagine what they would have sounded like as Savatage; thinking about what Paul would have brought to the table in terms of production quality, vocal melodies, lyrics and arrangements. And also wondering how the performances of Caffery, Middleton and co. would have compared to what we got on those records with the ex-CIIC guys (no offence to them, of course). After quite a few listens, and comparing the JOP songs with the last albums we got from Savatage (mostly P&M, but also to a lesser extent TWOM), I have to say: I could definitely hear it. Sure, some stuff would have been different here and there, especially on Paul's end of things. But overall, I think the songs would have mostly been the same, just a bit more "Savatage-y" sounding.
So this brings me to a question: what do you guys think about the idea of JOP being, as Jon himself said in other words, the musical successor and continuation of Savatage? Historically, I've often held the view that TSO was the proper continuation of Savatage due to the presence of Paul and all the recent band members, as well as the fact that the whole TSO sound is a direct distillation of the style Savatage had honed on DWD. But recently, I've become a bit less sure. Given that many of the JOP songs were, in part or in whole, originally intended for Savatage in the first place, and well as the fact that the more metal angle of JOP is not only more compatible with the greater part of the Savatage discography, but also a more likely continuation of the direction Savatage was going on P&M, how would you have felt about the JOP albums, with Paul and the Savatage guys on board (and all the changes that would entail), being the Savatage albums we would have gotten from 2004-2010 had the band not gone on hiatus?
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JOP is much more Savatage than TSO IMO. There's a lot of JOP songs with writing credits to Criss, that does it for me.
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JOP is much more Savatage than TSO IMO. There's a lot of JOP songs with writing credits to Criss, that does it for me.
I would agree.............the consistency of JOP is way down on Savatage though IMO. There's often one or two killer songs and plenty of filler - for me anyway.
I don't tend to listen to much of the post-Criss stuff anyway , so I suppose it's all a bit moot from my point of view. Plenty of good songs in there but I have a big attachment to the "Criss sound"
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JOP is much more Savatage than TSO IMO. There's a lot of JOP songs with writing credits to Criss, that does it for me.
Yeah, I find myself leaning much more in the JOP direction as well these days. I suppose that because I discovered Savatage and TSO thanks to the same song (Christmas Eve/ Sarajevo, and I honestly cannot remember if I heard it first as Savatage or TSO), I've tended to view the two bands as different sides of the same coin. Add to that the fact that I had never even heard a note of JOP until after Festival, the 4th JOP album, was already out, and yeah, my view was clearly more skewed towards TSO "being" Savatage.
But when I listen to the Savatage discography from front to back, the JOP stuff seems to flow so easily from where Savatage left off with P&M, it cannot be by accident. Sure, the JOP records are basically what those Savatage albums would have sounded like before Jon brought them to Paul and the rest of the band, so I'm sure the final product would have seen some significant changes. But even if JOP is only a rough idea of what a post-P&M Savatage would have sounded like, it is still very much a direct continuation of that same core sound.
I would agree.............the consistency of JOP is way down on Savatage though IMO. There's often one or two killer songs and plenty of filler - for me anyway.
I don't know about filler, but I definitely agree that JOP is much less consistent in quality then Savatage. I think that's probably where Paul and the band would have helped to fill the gaps, and bring those albums up from simply being just great metal records to "one of the best bands in the world" quality. Especially on the ballads. There is just a magic that all the Savatage ballads from Gutter Ballet to P&M had that is simply absent from JOP, so I'm guessing Paul had a very big hand in giving Jon some help in that area.
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I'd say there is a bit of filler too with JOP, especially on the last one. Global Warning is my fav and the only one that's solid from start to finish. The debut is mostly solid too. MR had some stunning songs and some below par ones.
Speaking of the Savatage direction, I was always fond that there were 2 Savatage sounds, the Criss stuff and the post Criss stuff, but I always couldn't help to think that after Criss died, they definitely should have continued as they did, but not under the Savatage name.
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I'd say there is a bit of filler too with JOP, especially on the last one. Global Warning is my fav and the only one that's solid from start to finish. The debut is mostly solid too. MR had some stunning songs and some below par ones.
Speaking of the Savatage direction, I was always fond that there were 2 Savatage sounds, the Criss stuff and the post Criss stuff, but I always couldn't help to think that after Criss died, they definitely should have continued as they did, but not under the Savatage name.
If they had decided to drop the Savatage name after Criss' death, then I think Handful of Rain would simply have been released as a Jon Oliva album, with himself singing all the leads (which very nearly happened, IIRC; the only reason Zak sang on the final version was because Atlantic was really pushing for a new Savatage album). After that, Dead Winter Dead and Wake of Magellan most likely would have been released as TSO albums pretty much as-is, just with a wider array of singers. Not sure if Poets And Madmen even would have been made in that case, but if it was, then it probably would have been a Jon Oliva album too.
Which raises another interesting hypothetical scenario: How would HOR* and P&M been received as Jon Oliva records, and DWD and TWOM as TSO records?
* this assumes that Jon, not Zak, would sing HOR if it were a solo record
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I'd pretty much agree with all of that, although I think P&M could easily fit under the Savatage name. I wouldn't want DWD and TWOM done any other way, but they would definitely fit under the TSO name. And as you said HOR is pretty much a Oliva solo record.
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To be honest, even HOR and P&M are not that different stylistically then TSO. Sure, the music is a bit heavier and there are less instrumentals and ballads, but the songwriting is very much the same. It's still primarily Jon and Paul, and the lyrics and vocal melodies are all Paul's anyways (on P&M, I believe HOR still had some lyrics by Jon). P&M could be what TSO would sound like attempting a straight forward metal record. The guitars are more prominent, but the vocal arrangements are still very similar.
Hell, I just listened to the entire Savatage discography over the last couple days, and out of curiosity chronologically overlapped the last few Savatage records with the first few TSO albums, (so, Dead Winter Dead-> Christmas Eve & Other Stories -> The Wake of Magellan-> The Christmas Attic -> Beethoven's Last Night -> Poets and Madmen -> The Lost Christmas Eve) and there really wasn't that much of a difference aside from a heavier mix and different singers. If the TSO albums had crunchier riffs and Jon and Zak sang all the leads, I doubt there would be any substantial difference at all. It's entirely possible they would have continued to develop down the operatic and symphonic road rather then turning back completely to Jon metal and prog roots. That's probably why Jon just decided to go his own way after 2002. If Savatage was just going to be a heavier (and less profitable) TSO, then what was the point? As many, including him, have said: it wasn't the same band without Criss anyways.
I think part of the problem for me is that the band seemed caught between the two styles by the time they did Poets and Madmen. In someways, it was an attempt to go back to the older, more metal sound of Savatage, with less instrumentals and ballads and more heavy riffing, but in many ways, I felt they played it safe and stuck very much to the DWD/TWOM/TSO formula of songwriting, with the broad, sweeping vocal and orchestral arrangements and concepts. I can certainly see how JOP could be considered the continuation of the P&M sound, and there are a lot of Savatage elements on those records, but the song writing is much "looser", as opposed to the "tighter" and more conceptual work that characterized Savatage.
Anyways, don't mind me if I ramble about this. I literally have lost sleep arguing with myself over whether I should consider TSO of JOP as the proper continuation of Savatage (not even joking :P ) It's possible that had Jon kept going as Savatage, Paul's influence would have decreased as he focused on TSO and Jon would have taken Savatage down the JOP road anyways. At any rate, this is all just academic and theoretical (though still fun to talk about); Savatage is Savatage; TSO and JOP, while each could have been Savatage, are, as is, each their own thing.
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CHRIS CAFFERY Says 'There's A Possibility' SAVATAGE Will Do 'Something More' After WACKEN Performance (https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/chris-caffery-says-theres-a-possibility-savatage-will-do-something-more-after-wacken-performance/)
"I'm gonna put it this way: for 12 years, 13 years, I've been waiting for my band to play again. We're playing again. I don't know what's going to happen after that [laughs], but there were people that were putting a fork in it, and we're getting up and not just running a marathon, were running in the Olympics with this festival being what it is. I'm not going to make any predictions, but let's just say there's a possibility that something more will happen after Wacken — that's all I can say. And nothing would make me happier."
:metal
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That sounds very cool!!
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We can only hope.
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https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/jon-oliva-wants-to-get-in-shape-and-knock-people-out-at-savatage-reunion/
Good little interview with Jon.
It's so good to see him recognize his health issues and doing something about it.
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Thats good to hear, Jon was in the danger zone with his weight.
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CHRIS CAFFERY Says 'There's A Possibility' SAVATAGE Will Do 'Something More' After WACKEN Performance (https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/chris-caffery-says-theres-a-possibility-savatage-will-do-something-more-after-wacken-performance/)
"I'm gonna put it this way: for 12 years, 13 years, I've been waiting for my band to play again. We're playing again. I don't know what's going to happen after that [laughs], but there were people that were putting a fork in it, and we're getting up and not just running a marathon, were running in the Olympics with this festival being what it is. I'm not going to make any predictions, but let's just say there's a possibility that something more will happen after Wacken — that's all I can say. And nothing would make me happier."
:metal
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/jon-oliva-wants-to-get-in-shape-and-knock-people-out-at-savatage-reunion/
Good little interview with Jon.
It's so good to see him recognize his health issues and doing something about it.
This is all great news. Good to hear Jon wants to get back into shape, I was starting to get a little worried about him. Also, I was hoping that Savatage would do something after Wacken, and I can only pray that this leads to something like a new album or maybe some shows. It's great that they've been getting offers to play in the States, as I know they have always been very underground in North America. I wonder, though, what form a Savatage tour would take. Would it be an actual Savatage tour, or would it be a hybrid TSO/Savatage tour like they had planed to do on the TSO spring tour back in 2011, and like the show at Wacken next year? Either way, I'm ecstatic, and I can only hope that they will play somewhere near me!
:metal :metal :metal :metal :metal
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I think that would be cool if they would have a Savatage set open up for TSO, even just like 45 minutes. Finally Savatage would be getting much needed recognition and publicity.
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I think that would be cool if they would have a Savatage set open up for TSO, even just like 45 minutes. Finally Savatage would be getting much needed recognition and publicity.
Because of the way TSO shows are structured, with the first part of the show being a live narrated version of a TSO album, it's better for the first set to be the TSO set, and then have the second set be the Savatage set. That's what was supposed to happen on the 2011 spring tour; they were going to play TSO's Beethoven's Last Night in it's entirety with narration, and then after that have a Savatage reunion. Plus, the general rule of thumb with TSO shows is that the second set is much more metal then the first, so having the Savatage set being the second set would also make more sense in that regard.
Now as far as the Wacken show is concerned, I think the TSO portion of the show will just be a mix of stuff from various TSO albums. Jon Oliva said that TSO will play for the first 45-50 minutes, and the after that they will play Gutter Ballet which will kick off the Savatage portion of the show (which I think will probably be about the same length as the TSO section). I really hope someone at Wacken records the whole thing, cause that show looks to be pretty kick-ass!
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There is no Zak right?
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There is no Zak right?
Haven't seen him mentioned anywhere, sadly. It would be awesome to see both he and Jon onstage.
So it will be Caffrey, Middleton, Pitrelli, Plate, and Oliva then?
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I could have sworn I saw somewhere that the entire DWD/TWOM lineup was confirmed for the Wacken show. I don't really have time right now, but I'll check later.
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I could have sworn I saw somewhere that the entire DWD/TWOM lineup was confirmed for the Wacken show. I don't really have time right now, but I'll check later.
When it comes to Savatage, The Dark Master knows all!
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Found it!
https://bravewords.com/news/savatage-vocalist-zak-stevens-on-wacken-open-air-2015-reunion-show-it-means-so-much-to-me-to-be-a-part-of-it (https://bravewords.com/news/savatage-vocalist-zak-stevens-on-wacken-open-air-2015-reunion-show-it-means-so-much-to-me-to-be-a-part-of-it)
Definitely looks to me like Zak will be in the lineup for Wacken.
I could have sworn I saw somewhere that the entire DWD/TWOM lineup was confirmed for the Wacken show. I don't really have time right now, but I'll check later.
When it comes to Savatage, The Dark Master knows all!
Heheh. I generally try to keep myself well informed! ;)
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That's good news, it wouldn't be the same without Zak.
I actually have a good feeling that this will lead to more, likely one last album
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I think Zak definitely deserves to be there.
I actually have a good feeling that this will lead to more, likely one last album
I really really hope so.
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At the very least I would hope this Wacken performance is released on DVD/CD
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At the very least I would hope this Wacken performance is released on DVD/CD
Yeah, it's gotta be.
Speaking of Zak, listened to Seasons Will Fall this morning. Man, such a great album, I love this one. It might be my second fav of theirs.
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Listening to Circle II Circle after Zak left Savatage was the best way for me to continue with Savatage. I felt like that first C2C release reminded me of Handful of Rain in so many ways.
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Listening to Circle II Circle after Zak left Savatage was the best way for me to continue with Savatage. I felt like that first C2C release reminded me of Handful of Rain in so many ways.
Oliva and Caffery had a lot to do with that first album, which explains it.
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At the very least I would hope this Wacken performance is released on DVD/CD
Yeah, it's gotta be.
Speaking of Zak, listened to Seasons Will Fall this morning. Man, such a great album, I love this one. It might be my second fav of theirs.
Seasons Will Fall is still my second favorite behind Burden of Truth
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Listening to Circle II Circle after Zak left Savatage was the best way for me to continue with Savatage. I felt like that first C2C release reminded me of Handful of Rain in so many ways.
Oliva and Caffery had a lot to do with that first album, which explains it.
I figured as much. I just wasn't 100% on that so I waited for someone else to mention it. I was too lazy to Google it. :lol
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Seasons Will Fall didn't get much of a chance from me - a few of you guys said it's a grower but I never got around to it.
Speaking of Savatage ..........I'm a bit of a black t-shirt fiend and there's been a gaping hole in my collection all these years that will soon be rectified. Looking forward to finally getting my Edge of Thorns t-shirt in the mail in the next few days - one of my fave cover arts of all time.
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At the very least I would hope this Wacken performance is released on DVD/CD
Yeah, it's gotta be.
Speaking of Zak, listened to Seasons Will Fall this morning. Man, such a great album, I love this one. It might be my second fav of theirs.
Seasons Will Fall is still my second favorite behind Burden of Truth
You got it man.
Listening to Circle II Circle after Zak left Savatage was the best way for me to continue with Savatage. I felt like that first C2C release reminded me of Handful of Rain in so many ways.
Oliva and Caffery had a lot to do with that first album, which explains it.
I figured as much. I just wasn't 100% on that so I waited for someone else to mention it. I was too lazy to Google it. :lol
Yeah they wrote a lot of it and played on it too.
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I was working with a co-worker who was an old school metal fan. Classic rock stuff like Judas Priest, Iron Maiden and Ozzy.
He happened to mentioned that way back in the 80's, he had a buddy give him a copy of Sirens by Savatage...he liked it, but never heard anything else from the band. When I told him that they eventually became TSO, you could have knocked him over with a feather. :rollin
So I decided to make him a mix CD to get him caught up. I was surprised that this mix turned out so well. Usually, when you try to do a "strictly chronological" mix in the order of release, the results can be very disjointed and uneven...even if the songs are good. When I picked out my "one song from every album", I thought I was going to have to rearrange them to make the feel of the CD more even, but it turned out sounding pretty amazing as it was, so I just left it.
It's so good, I want to burn another copy just for myself. Check it out...
1. Sirens
2. City Beneath the Surface
3. Power of the Night
4. Edge of Midnight
5. Prelude to Madness
6. Hall of the Mountain King
7. When the Crowds are Gone
8. Strange Reality
9. Degrees of Sanity
10. Chance
11. One Child
12. Christmas Eve (Sarajevo 12/24)
13. The Hourglass
14. Morphine Child
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That would be a great disc!!
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For sentimental reasons, I can not imagine a Savatage mix without All That I Bleed. I just love that song, and it was usually dedicated by Savatage to the memory of Criss Oliva.
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For sentimental reasons, I can not imagine a Savatage mix without All That I Bleed. I just love that song, and it was usually dedicated by Savatage to the memory of Criss Oliva.
Even though All That I Bleed is the "Criss Oliva" tribute song, only Criss can pay tribute himself
Temptation Revelation (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz0qZPLXYsQ)
The guy really got the shaft when it comes to 80s guitar slinger fame. Amazing soloist.
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I think any Savatage collection really is a music win.
That cd above is a solid release and the choices of songs are really quite consistent in style considering is spanning their whole career. Interesting pick with Strange Reality, and I love seeing Degrees of Sanity, such an underrated tune.
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https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/savatage-return-to-wacken-collection-due-in-june/
What a terrible, blatant cash grab.
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Yeah - although I can't see it selling much :-\ The only people really interested in Savatage at this point are died in the wool fans who have all or most of their stuff. Which of them is going to buy this? Even re-records or a Live At Wacken album would sell more.
I really don't see the point on any level.
Perhaps they feel that they're going to get a big crossover from TSO fans ?
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No one is going to buy this. Surely fans wouldn't spend money on this, and new fans would probaly go with the last 2CD best of. At least put something new on there or a bootleg DVD or live cd or something.
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They had three best of releases in the past that I know of: The Best & The Rest, From The Gutter To The Stage, From The Dungeons to the Streets. Do they really need another CD with old "hits"?
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They had three best of releases in the past that I know of: The Best & The Rest, From The Gutter To The Stage, From The Dungeons to the Streets. Do they really need another CD with old "hits"?
What about the last one, Still the Orchestra Plays. Not really familiar with their best of albums to be honest. I simply discovered them through their albums.
EDIT: Wiki has 5 including this new one;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savatage
It doesn't even have the Dungeon to the Streets one, maybe it's the same as one of the other ones with a different name. They also have one called Believe. Crazy amount. A live album would have been much more acceptable.
EDIT #2: Metal archives have 6 listed including the new one. They have mistakingly have the new one as a live album though;
https://www.metal-archives.com/bands/Savatage/193#band_tab_discography
From the Dungeon to the Streets
From the Gutter to the Stage
The Best and the Rest
Believe
Still the Orchestra Plays
Return to Wacken
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Back then I would buy everything with their name on it only because they would lure you in with one or two bonus tracks that you couldn't get anywhere else. I wound up selling them eventually. I don't even know which Savatage CDs I still have left.
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Back then I would buy everything with their name on it only because they would lure you in with one or two bonus tracks that you couldn't get anywhere else. I wound up selling them eventually. I don't even know which Savatage CDs I still have left.
Looking above the only one I have was the last double cd one. Only because of the Live in Japan DVD bonus.
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What I wish they would put out on CD is one of those Jon Oliva storytellers shows. I have the bootlegs of them and they really are a must have for all Savatage fans.
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I will buy the live reunion Wacken show if released in a second
This release, however, is pointless
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I will buy the live reunion Wacken show if released in a second
This release, however, is pointless
It's like they need to pay their bills or something so they figured they would throw something random together. Stop toying with us and write something new.
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I still have a good feeling that more is going to come out of this reunion show. I don't think this will be the last we hear of them
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I still have a good feeling that more is going to come out of this reunion show. I don't think this will be the last we hear of them
I hope you're right.
What I wish they would put out on CD is one of those Jon Oliva storytellers shows. I have the bootlegs of them and they really are a must have for all Savatage fans.
Never checked one out, must look into that.
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What I wish they would put out on CD is one of those Jon Oliva storytellers shows. I have the bootlegs of them and they really are a must have for all Savatage fans.
Never checked one out, must look into that.
If you can't find one, let me know. I'll upload it for you.
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What I wish they would put out on CD is one of those Jon Oliva storytellers shows. I have the bootlegs of them and they really are a must have for all Savatage fans.
Never checked one out, must look into that.
If you can't find one, let me know. I'll upload it for you.
Cool man.
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I have Gutter Ballet in the car at the moment. Man, almost forgot how fucking good this album is.
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I have Gutter Ballet in the car at the moment. Man, almost forgot how fucking good this album is.
:hefdaddy No 5 in my top 50 if memory serves correct.
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Amazing album. Actually I think I'll listen to it soon
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Just solid from start to finish. Mentally Yours is probably the only song that is dips in quality just a fraction, but that riff during the instrumental section makes up for it.
Summer's Rain is one of the most underrated ballads ever. Always got overshadowed by WTCAG but just such a special song, amazing. TS as a bonus track is killer too.
The Unholy is one of their best and most underrated songs. Very dark and heavy with an excellent feel and atmosphere, amazing track.
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Summer's Rain is definitely underrated. Gutter Ballet was the first Savatage release I ever bought. I heard a friend listening to Gutter Ballet and loved everything about that song.
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Concerning that Return to Wacken release: pointless. If they want to celebrate the band's previous appearances there in '98 and '02, why don't they release an album of live tracks from those shows? As it is, this is just another psudo-"best-of" compilation, with nothing that can't be found on other records. The only time releases like this are worth it for me is if they have something new or super rare. Just putting a bunch of studio tracks from older albums on a record is lazy. I'm sure it's partially a cash grab, but I think part of it too is just "We haven't done anything in 13 years, so what can we put out to promote this?" syndrome. To be fair, this is probably more of a record label thing then something the band wanted to do, but that being the case, I'm sure they could have come up with something better then this.
Here's an idea: why don't you get the six guys together in the studio and record the 2 or 3 or however many songs that were cut from Poets and Madmen when Zak quit because Jon felt those songs didn't work with only himself? Or what about re-recording some of the tracks that were cut from Streets that haven't been put out in some form or another yet? (I've still never heard a complete version of Tonight I Would Be King). Or why not just do a few new songs like Jon talked about a couple years ago since TSO spends so much time in the studio anyways? (although if at all possible, I would prefer they save any new material for a new full album) A record of a few new songs, re-recorded lost stuff, and/or some live tracks from the previous Wacken shows would be awesome, and a hell of a lot better then this.
As for Gutter Ballet, that is a fantastic record. The title track is actually my favorite song the band has ever done. While they dabbled a bit in new ideas on Mountain King, GB is, IMO, the record where they went from being just a really good heavy metal band to one of the best and most unique bands on the planet. It was where the band really began to shine with ballads like When The Crowds Are Gone and Summer's Rain, and explored progressive influences a bit more deeply with tracks like Hounds. If there is one weak track on there, I'd say it is She's In Love, although since Jon has said the song was basically a joke to poke fun at the misogamy that was rampant in hair metal at the time, I give it a pass. I think the only issue with Mentally Yours is that the chorus is a bit repetitive, but the song is still great in other parts, especially the intro and the solo section. Easily at least a 9/10 record for me.
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Well said DM. I think you're right, it probably is a record company thing, but yeah, a few good ideas there that could have been done.
I quite like She's in Love, has a nice pace. It's definitely on the verge of filler but it's alright. Would have been funny if they kept the original lyrics in.
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No filler on the Gutter Ballet album in my opinion.
Fight for the Rock on the other hand......
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Yea, I definitely would not call anything on Gutter Ballet filler. Not all the tracks are created equal, but all of them are certainly enjoyable.
As for FFTR, the two covers and the re-recorded Out On The Streets were absolutely filler. Those should have been replaced with original songs, like The Message and No More Saturday Nights. I also wish they had kept the original Fighting For Your Love (which is on one of the re-releases of Dungeons), as it's much better then the Crying version on the album.
There's still some cool stuff on that record, though. Edge Of Midnight is one of my favourite pre-HOTMK Sava-tracks, and the title track and Hyde are both excellent. She's Only Rock And Roll and Red Light Paradise aren't as great, but they're still solid early Savatage cuts.
I must say though, I've come to like the album version of Lady In Disguise more then the demo. The demo was basically a repeat of Fighting/Crying For Your Love, while the final version on the album was a foretaste of their Broadway influenced songs like Gutter Ballet. It was really cool of Jon to dust that song off for the Storytellers tour.
Speaking of which, I need to get my hands on those bootlegs Prog Snob was talking about. I have some very fond memories of that tour...
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I have Gutter Ballet in the car at the moment. Man, almost forgot how fucking good this album is.
:hefdaddy No 5 in my top 50 if memory serves correct.
#5????
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it was #4
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#4, impressive ranking.
And no, I guess they aren't filler, as I have never skipped them but as TDM said, just not as equal. I think it would be better though if Shuffle was in and Mentally was the bonus track.
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Thanks for the clarification :lol ..........I just checked back on my work and I originally had it #5 and switched it up a place at the last minute.
It is just that good Tim :P
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Whats Tim doing in the Savatage thread anyway? lol
And I agree about Fighting for Your Love as compared to Crying; much better version.
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Speaking of which, I need to get my hands on those bootlegs Prog Snob was talking about. I have some very fond memories of that tour...
When I get home from work later, I'll upload them to my Google Drive and send a link to whoever wants them. I have two if I remember correctly. One is from Cleveland (or Cincinatti) and the other is from the New Jersey show. They are basically the same though as far as the actual show itself, but I think it's the Cleveland (or Cincinatti) show that has additional stuff like photos of the show and part of the soundcheck.
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So Savatage/TSO have been rather quiet since the end of last years winter tour, doubtlessly focusing all their effort into finishing the new TSO album and planing the Wacken show at the end of this month. Consequently, there hasn't been much news to report on the Sava-front. However, I did stumble across this interview Zak did back in January that I somehow missed: https://roadtometal.blogspot.com/2015/01/interview-zak-stevens-circle-ii-circle.html (https://roadtometal.blogspot.com/2015/01/interview-zak-stevens-circle-ii-circle.html) There are some rather interesting things he has to say about his time in Savatage and the upcoming reunion at Wacken.
RtM: It was announced this year that Savatage will make a special show at Wacken 2015! What was your reaction when realized that this reunion will happen? How were the negotiations? I believe that you are very happy with it, because i remember you always demonstrated the will that the band return to activities. Can you tell us a bit more about it, how will be this concert, set list, guests? Every Savatage fan in this world is dreaming with this concert now!!
Z: Well I understand the great buzz and excitement around the"reunuion" show and I absolutely expect to be there perfoming, of course. When I first heard about it I was surprised it took this long for there to be a decision to have this concert. Unfortunately We won't have any information about what is going to happen with the "reunion" until January. So there are no further details on anything until then. But all the guys in T.S.O. / Savatage are talking right now and we're just trying to make the Savatage "reunion" part of the T.S.O. show the best it can possibly be for all of the faithful Savatage fans that has have supported the band throughout all the years.
RtM: And Jon, surely he should have talked to you when the negotiations began to emerge? Did you feel that he is excited? Chris Caffery recently also commented that there is a possibility of something more than the Wacken concert? More shows? New album? Did you talk about something?
Z: Yes Jon and all the guys have spoken with me about the concert at Wacken. Everything is still under negotiations at this time. I am aware of Chris Caffery's comments on the "reunion" and Chris and I have always agreed on out feelings about Savatage and possible further activity. So that doesn't surprise me in the least that he said that. But then again Chris and I have been in agreement on that exact thing for years so we'll just have to see how Jon and Paul O'Neill feel about possibly continuing Savatage in the future. After all they are the ones who make all of the decisions about the "reunion" and Savatage/T.S.O. business.
RtM: Jon said several times that Savatage ended up because not having a return in financial terms, and was one of the reasons that the band was stopping. Do you believe that a return of the band can now bring a different scenario? Also because I think that the work of Savatage, the legacy that the band is currently more recognized, and there are many new fans too.
Z: Of course I agree that the profile of Savatage has greatly increased because of the public knowledge that T.S.O. is actually basically a "re-configured" Savatage. When I was in Savatage, it was a very lucrative enterprise for the most part and everyone in the band was paid well. So of course the band could be an even more successful entity now that T.S.O. has raised its awareness and profile to a much a much higher level in the past few years. During this period T.S.O. itself has raised the profile of my band CIIC to unheard of levels. So from a business standpoint why wouldn't it do the same thing thing for the band it was formed from (Savatage)?
RtM: Looking back, some years ago, would you tell us a little about your entry in Savatage, as was the beginning, your expectations, which hoped to accomplish with the band?
Z: Well you are talking about looking back about 20 years on this. When I came into Savatage, I was a new inexperienced singer in the music business for the most part. I learned much of what I know in the business from being in that band and also from watching the business transformation of the band into becoming T.S.O. Of course I continued honing my writing and production skills in CIIC, but I owe it to all the players in Savatage for bringing me into the business and giving me a career that has spanned over 20 years. My expectations were very high then and they continue to be high now. It came down to my own personal drive and determination to make my career last this long and I believe the best times are yet to come from my career.
RtM: And when you left the band, including not participating in the latest album, "Poets and Madmens"? Today, you look back, feel regret not having participated in that album? What are the main reasons for your departure?
Z: No I don't feel any regrets whatsoever. As you know these kinds of things happen every day in the music business. I wouldn't trade the time I took out of Savatage to spend time with my family and at the time my newborn daughter (and later both of my daughters). It was definitely a needed departure at the time. Also at that same time we all knew that "Poets" was the final album for Savatage before the launch of T.S.O. So in retrospect it was all done on good terms and the parting was very amicable. All the guys in Savatage knew my situation at the time that I had to take that leave of absence. That's why I have such a good relationship with all the Savatage and T.S.O. members and management to this very day.
Some very cool stuff, although I find it rather interesting that he says they basically knew at the time they did P&M that it would be the final Savatage album (which contradicts a lot of things Jon said at the time). I suppose in retrospect, it was obvious with TSO become as big as it was that Savatage was on it's way out, but even so, I found that comment by Zak to be rather intriguing.
Also, for the CIIC fans, he talks quite a bit about their future plans in the full article, so you should definitely go check that out if you're interested.
Now, to just play the waiting game 'til Wacken...
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Has it been confirmed who will be taking part in the reunion?
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Last I heard, it's the full DWD/TWOM lineup. As I noted above, the band has been rather tight-lipped about the whole thing since the beginning of the new year, but as far as I know, it's still going to be that lineup. Obviously Jon's going to be there, and since it's following a TSO show, then Caffery, Middleton, Plate and Pitrelli are all guaranteed. And that interview certainly makes it sound like Zak will be there as well. Plus that's still their official lineup on Facebook/Myspace/Savatage.com. So yeah, DWD/TWOM-era Savatage.
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Sounds good. I'm hoping for a live cd of the show
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I'm hoping for a Blu-Ray. :D Honestly, at this point, Savatage is so overdue for a new anything, if they are going to do a reunion, they should do it in style. A really sleek, high quality concert video/album would be a great way to reintroduce the band to a whole new generation of fans who aren't old enough to have seen them in their heyday. I just hope Paul has the same thoughts on his mind and will be bringing some HD cameras to Wacken this year for the band's show.
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Perfect lineup to reunite IMO. Although wouldn't mind seeing Doc could make an appearance.
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Hopefully Jon's got himself healthy or you may need a special widescreen edition to see anyone else . He's a worry :-\ .
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He said he was getting into shape for the Wacken show. Caff said in an interview back in December that fans will be "blown away" when they see Jon take the stage.
As for Doc, I honestly have no idea what he is up to these days, or if he would even be interested in a Savatage event now. The last time he did anything Savatage related was back in 2004 for the Weapons of Mass Destruction show at ProgPowerUSA (he also performed on a few tracks on the first JOP album the same year.) Doc seemed to loose interest in Savatage after Jon stepped down, and then especially after Chris' death (although, Jon has implied that if HOR had been more commercially successful, Doc may have come back to the band full time.) At this point, though, who knows what, if any, interest he has remaining in Savatage.
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All the major acts at Wacken are filmed by the event in house camera's already.
Usually there is a DVD of the Wacken shows with a couple of songs each artist/act.
So filming is no issue, it will be filmed, whether the whole show gets released is another matter entirely.
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There is so many great full concerts that could be released from Wacken over the years.
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I guess a lot of the shows never see the light of day and are never released
I'm confident this Savatage show will be released
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Yeah, it has to be.
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A live recording of the show plus one or two new studio tracks. I would be content with that being the final release of the band if they are set against a full length album.
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Yeah, that would be cool if they weren't gonna do another album.
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So the reunion we've been waiting for finally happened. Savatage live at Wacken! They also did a cool thing where they played Savatage / TSO across the two main stages.
Some Savatage videos below.
Gutter Ballet (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW7BCMXeUrA)
Edge of Thorns (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HF2GAQnvml4)
Jesus Saves (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAr7quNvyKQ)
There are a ton more at Blabbermouth here if you want - Click it (https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/savatage-reunites-for-wacken-open-air-festival-performance-video-available/)
It's cool to see all the guys healthy and in good shape too. Jon looks great.
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Apparently Russell Allen also sang with TSO
What was really cool is that both Savatage and TSO performed some songs at THE SAME TIME and at a DIFFERENT STAGE. Hope this thing is released in full. Would love to hear the Savatage set!
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Awesome :metal
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I'm screaming with joy. Please, Jon Oliva, do the smart thing: make a new Savatage studio album. Pleeeeeeeeease, I need for new Savatage! :hefdaddy
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It's awesome to see them like this with a full TSO style production - wow - and with Zak there too. I didn't see Johnny Lee in the vids I watched but apparently he was there.
According to Caffery I was supposed to be blown away by the great shape that Jon was in , but from what I could see (not much) I'm not sure about that.
Hopefully some pro footage will pop up shortly. If there's a DVD then I'll be all over it.
Top 5 band of all time for me ,so this is really great to see.
You there Tim? :lol
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Top 5 band of all time for me
You serious? With all of the music you have heard in your life?
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One minute ;D :hat
Top 5 band of all time for me ,so this is really great to see.
You there Tim? :lol
Top 5 band of all time for me
You serious? With all of the music you have heard in your life?
Right up there with the best of the best :TAC:
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I have managed to snag a review copy of Caffery's new solo album for a listen on the weekend (due for release in a few weeks). It's already won worst album cover of 2015 for me so let's see if the music lives up to the cover ;D The few reviews I have read have said it might be his best release, so.......
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Does anybody know if the new Savatage remasters are worth getting?
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In case anyone is wondering, here's the set for the Wacken show:
Savatage Set:
Gutter Ballet
24 Hours Ago
Edge of Thorns
Jesus Saves
The Storm
Dead Winter Dead
Hall of the Mountain King
TSO Set:
Madness of Men (new song)
Another Way You Can Die
Night Conceives
Toccata- Carpus Noctem
The Hourglass (duet with Zak from Savatage and Andrew Ross form TSO)
Beethoven
Prometheus (new song)
A Last Illusion
Savatage/TSO combined set:
The Mountian
Carmina Burana
Turns to Me
Another Way
Piano Solo
Mozart and Memories
Morphine Child
King Rurick (new song)
Believe
Chance
Christmas Eve (Sarajevo 12/24)
Requiem (The Fifth)
I still haven't viewed all the footage from the show, but suffice to say "holy fucking shit!" The two stage set up was brilliant, the performance were top notch (although Jon does seem strained in a number of places), and the production was one of the best TSO has even done yet. Some of the Savatage songs sounded really amazing with the additional orchestration from TSO. The extra stings added to Hall of the Mountain King were killer, and Morphine Child fucking slays with the TSO chior.
I'll comment more once I've seen the whole thing (or as much as I can find), but I really hope this gets released on DVD. And Jon and Paul need to do more shows like this, perhaps on the next TSO non-holiday tour. But for now, this is was a fantastic show, a great revitalization of Savatage as a live performing entity, and hopefully a sign of more to come!
:metal :metal :metal
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I have managed to snag a review copy of Caffery's new solo album for a listen on the weekend (due for release in a few weeks). It's already won worst album cover of 2015 for me so let's see if the music lives up to the cover ;D The few reviews I have read have said it might be his best release, so.......
Keep us posted, as that's a big statement. Faces and WARPED are really awesome.
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Does anybody know if the new Savatage remasters are worth getting?
Yes!!!
This show needs a DVD/CD release ASAP.
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I wish this set would include a few more songs from P&M. As for TSO - they seem to often skip my favourite song, The Dark (I really love the version with the female singer).
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no Taunting Cobras? :azn:
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Watching a couple of bootleg vids from this Wacken show and the performance is really really good, we need a CD/DVD of this.
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This sounds awesome and I would buy the DVD in a heartbeat. Really hope they'll make it.
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Should be a double dvd - one for each stage!
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Well, unfortunately it looks like any hopes of a DVD are dashed. Christian Wentz, the guitar player for CIIC posted these comments on his facebook:
Christian Wentz There will be no dvd with Savatage
21 hrs · Like · 1
Christian Wentz I'm sitting next to Zak. I've spoken to most of the family here. I was at the press conference. There will not be a DVD.
we witnessed a funeral for Savatage and the grand scheme for TSO. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Christian Wentz They signed a contract that allowed for only the TSO portion of the show to be played after it was approved.
Christian Wentz The Savatage portion of the show will never see the light of day
Christian Wentz Because of the fact that this show was to bury Savatage, not raise them from the dead
Christian Wentz Because Paul oNeil owns the name and the performance rights. This is his show.
source:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/SavatageWacken2015/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/SavatageWacken2015/)
To be honest, I'm not surprised in the least, though I am disappointed.
TSO makes so much money and it takes up so much of Paul and the band's time, there was no way they were going to bring back Savatage as a full time band. The most I was expecting was maybe some more Savatage sets as part of TSO shows, like the Wacken show, or like what they had talked about doing on the Beethoven's Last Night tour. Basically the Savatage guys getting up on stage with TSO and playing a bunch of Savatage songs. They dabbled in that a bit on recent TSO tours (especially on the last European tour) and I can only hope that trend continues.
Jon mentioned last winter that the band had gotten offers for more Savatage reunion shows in other countires, including the US, so if we see some TSO shows with Savatage sets, I wouldn't be surprised. At the very least, it seems like their trend of resurrecting Savatage songs for TSO will most likely continue. But Savatage actually going out on tour, on their own? I don't think that was ever in the cards.
Who knows, maybe we'll get a farewell EP or album of new songs like Jon talked about a couple years ago, but even that I doubt (because why would they release those songs as Savatage when they could just do them as TSO and make more money?). Savatage being embalmed and put on display for TSO fans as a part of their past; that's about all I expect at this point.
Damn shame they're not releasing this on DVD, though. Seriously, what the fuck do they have to gain by not putting it out?
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bullshit
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bullshit
Fuck That Bull....
This deserves to be released.
Unless...The powers that be decide it all decide to be idiots.
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Who is talking about reviving Savatage? Go make your money on TSO, but when you've gotten this, played both and could have filmed it... why not release it? Proper burial if nothing else. And get some money too. So annoying.
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They should definitely release it as a DVD... band sounds great, show looks fantastic, what's to lose there?
As far as re-activating Savatage in any capacity... I don't see a problem with them doing it while TSO is off? Or has TSO become a year-round project? I know they rent out the arena in Iowa or whatever for a few months to build the show, but what is wrong with a small pocket of tours here and there, especially if the offers are good enough to make money?
I understand that Paul owns the name, and if it's the case of just him not wanting it to happen that's a shame. It seems like the others are very interested in it still.
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They should definitely release it as a DVD... band sounds great, show looks fantastic, what's to lose there?
As far as re-activating Savatage in any capacity... I don't see a problem with them doing it while TSO is off? Or has TSO become a year-round project? I know they rent out the arena in Iowa or whatever for a few months to build the show, but what is wrong with a small pocket of tours here and there, especially if the offers are good enough to make money?
I understand that Paul owns the name, and if it's the case of just him not wanting it to happen that's a shame. It seems like the others are very interested in it still.
There's a bit of a problem with getting Savatage to play some actual shows seperate of TSO.
For one thing, yes, TSO is now a year round thing, and it has been for almost a decade. The band have been recording four rock operas over the past six years, and the first one is just reaching completion now. Because of the sheer complexity of TSO albums, with so many people involved and whatnot, those records take an obscenely long time to make. Much of TSO's time away from touring is spent in the studio.
Which brings up another point; the way the recording scheduling works for TSO, the Savatage guys don't really have a lot of free time together. Jon and Paul write the albums, and while they are writing, that's when Caffery, Zak and the others get to do their own things. Then they all get into the studio together to record. And then, when the band is out on tour (or rehearsing for a tour, and those rehearsals take a couple months, every year), that's when Jon works on his JOP/solo records, and sometimes does a few short tours of his own. It's pretty much impossible to get Jon on the same page as the rest of Savatage cause he uses his time off to do his own thing, which (I suspect) is the stuff he's most passionate about.
And that brings me to a third point; I honestly don't think Jon Oliva has much of an interest in doing Savatage anymore. I've seen a lot of interviews he did from the Poets and Madmen era back in 2000-2002, and you can kind of tell he wasn't particularly happy with the way things were going in the Savatage camp. He really wanted to make straight forward metal album, and seemed rather annoyed that Paul turned it into another rock opera. I'm sure Jon genuinely enjoys working with Paul, but I think by 2001 he was starting to chafe under Paul's direction and wanted to go out and do his own thing. For whatever reason, he couldn't do it as Savatage.
Maybe it is because Paul owns the name (possible). Maybe Jon felt putting together a new band as "Savatage" would be a slap in the face to Caffery and the other guys (he's said as much). Or maybe Jon really does feel that Savatage was never quite Savatage without his brother (he has said this too, and a lot of people who have talked to him and Caffery and others over the years have gotten the impression that performing as Savatage became increasingly difficult for Jon after Criss died). Whatever the reason, Jon decided to strike out on his own making the records he wanted to make. And, for what it's worth, he seems generally happy doing it. Compare the interviews he's done for JOP or solo records/tours to the interviews he did for Savatage between 1994 and 2002 and you'll see what I mean. His passion for the band just wasn't there anymore, and he has clearly become happier doing his own thing. The Savatage fan in me really wishes it hadn't turned out that way, but given everything he's been through, I'd feel like a selfish asshole asking him for more.
Ultimately, I've kind of just come to terms with the situation over the past couple years. If TSO decides to bring back more Savatage songs into their sets, and maybe do some "reunion" shows here and there, I'd be up for it. And I'm really looking forward to the next JOP album. Of course, I'd be lying if I said I didn't want a new Savatage album and tour. But at this point, I can't get mad about it anymore. I've seen it said that Savatage just became to big for one band, and given the diversity of material in the Savatage canon, I've kinda come to agree. Compare Sirens to Dead Winter Dead and it sounds like two completely different bands. Just like TSO and JOP. Maybe what happened was, to a certain extent, inevitable. As far back as '93/'94, Jon was toying around with simultaneous side projects like Romanov and Doctor Butcher. I guess he just couldn't do everything under one name. And once TSO became the real money maker, he no longer needed that name anyways.
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Well put DM
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What if Jon got Caffery (and maybe JLM) involved in JOP? Aside from the involvement of O'Neill (which I am not fussed about at this point - I would like an old style Savatage metal album) that would be as much Savatage as just about anything since Edge of Thorns in my eyes. It will never happen but I'd be happy for them to call that Savatage , and it would surely sell more than JOP .........given their history and Criss's legacy it's nuts that O'Neill owns the name.
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What if Jon got Caffery (and maybe JLM) involved in JOP? Aside from the involvement of O'Neill (which I am not fussed about at this point - I would like an old style Savatage metal album) that would be as much Savatage as just about anything since Edge of Thorns in my eyes. It will never happen but I'd be happy for them to call that Savatage , and it would surely sell more than JOP .........given their history and Criss's legacy it's nuts that O'Neill owns the name.
I think its time to give up with anything future Savatage.
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I think its time to give up with anything future Savatage.
D'ya think??
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For me, Savatage really ended with Criss Oliva's death. Savatage has always been the Oliva brothers' project.
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What if Jon got Caffery (and maybe JLM) involved in JOP? Aside from the involvement of O'Neill (which I am not fussed about at this point - I would like an old style Savatage metal album) that would be as much Savatage as just about anything since Edge of Thorns in my eyes. It will never happen but I'd be happy for them to call that Savatage , and it would surely sell more than JOP .........given their history and Criss's legacy it's nuts that O'Neill owns the name.
It's not entirely out of the realm of possibly that something like that could still happen. Caffery, Middleton, Zak and Doc all played with JOP at the Criss Oliva memorial concert in 2003. Caffery co-wrote a song on the first JOP record while Doc played on a couple of songs on the same album. Caffery and Doc both played with JOP at ProgPower USA in 2004 (Zak was supposed to be there as well, but couldn't make it because he was hospitalized due to a freak accident). Zak performed some Savatage songs with JOP on the Global Warning tour in 2008. Those guys are certainly still very much interested in playing together.
The problem is, the TSO schedule tends to limit their free time together, as I explained above. Caffery's commitments to TSO prevented him from taking part in the 25th anniversary tour for HOTMK in 2012, and an anniversary tour for Gutter Ballet in 2014 was canceled most likely because Caffery and Middleton couldn't make it, again, due to TSO. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of future informal Savatage reunions centered around JOP; if past precedent is anything to go by, they will most likely happen again in the future. But as TSO expands beyond the Christmas season to become more of a year round thing, I would imagine the opportunities for such informal reunions of old Savatage members with JOP will be limited.
As for the name Savatage, Jon has stated multiple times that he has sole rights to the name, and could have just called JOP Savatage if he so wished. He allegedly chose not to because a) he felt it was disrespectful to Caffery, Middleton and Plate, who were still formally in Savatage at the time, and b) because as I explained above, I don't think he really wants to continue Savatage without his brother. Savatage was contractually obligated for four more albums after Edge Of Thorns (although the final album was put out by Nuclear Blast because Jon was dissatisfied with Atlantic's lack of promotion for Wake Of Magellan). Between no longer needing the Savatage name to put out his records, Jon's increasing belief that the name Savatage was unmarketable (due to the difficulty the band experienced getting airplay for Christmas Eve (Sarajevo 12/24) verses the relative ease they found success with the same song when it was released as TSO), not wanting to disrespect members of Savatage by just putting together a new lineup, and not wanting to continue the band without Criss, Jon decided to lay Savatage to rest and just start a new band.
The idea that Paul owns the name, in part or in whole, is just a rumor, and has never been proven. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if he does. He did a lot of favours for the band over the years that kept them going, so maybe he was compensated for that with some degree of ownership over the name. But so far as has been officially stated, Jon Oliva owns Savatage, so in effect, Jon Oliva is Savatage.
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I don't have any great illusions about Savatage being a touring band - my idea was more that if Caffery spent the time he spends writing for solo stuff working on Savatage /JOP with Jon (which fans like me would effectively consider Savatage) , then it could work as a studio project at least. It's then up to Jon (or Paul) whether they use the name to boost sales over JOP.
I have some sympathy for the idea that Savatage died with Criss ............I never had the love for any of the post Criss albums that I do for those with him. Although on recent listening I liked WoM better than I recalled.
So if Savatage (which at this point means Jon, Chris and Johnny - for me.........plus or minus Zak) was to do something under whatever name then I would be all for a more metal approach along the lines of Maniacal Renderings. That album had some great stuff but also tailed off after a strong opening. The addition of Chris may help produce an all killer album.
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bravewords.com/news/savatage-rumours-of-more-shows-in-the-works-and-possible-new-album-continue-to-grow
May I now join in and :metal
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Goddamn it, Savatage, stop teasing me like this. Just do it already!
Seriously, though, this is good news, I can only hope it is a sign of things to come.
:metal
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Savatage is kinda like Star Wars. Every time you've finally accepted the movies are done, bam.
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Interesting. Wasn't it Zak's guitarist that posted on FB that Savatage was dead and that Wacken was it's funeral? Now you have another friend of the band saying it was a test... LOL! Well let's hope the latter is true. :D
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They need a band conference to finally answer these questions once and for all.
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They gotta do more shit, seriously, it seems a waste not to.
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They need a band conference to finally answer these questions once and for all.
That would be nice, but they're not going to do that because they're going to have to work Savatage around the TSO schedule, which will not be easy, so I don't think they are willing to give any concrete promises for projects which they are not yet certain they can commit. Even so, it's very nice to hear that Wacken went so well for them they are at least considering more shows and maybe more records. Compared to where we were at only a few years ago when Jon was saying it will never happen, this is certainly progress.
They gotta do more shit, seriously, it seems a waste not to.
It's nice to hear that they are at least still considering doing more shows and possibly a new album. Back in 2013 when Jon was doing promos for his solo record saying that he would be up for doing an EP, and I remember thinking, "Paul would never half-ass it with just an EP. If Jon actually runs this by him, I really hope Paul's ambition gets the better of him and it becomes a full blown album." Perhaps that's what happened.
Plus Jon has always said that a new album and a new tour would go hand in hand. He didn't want to just whip up a Savatage tour without a new album to promote, and likewise, he didn't want to do a new album without a corresponding tour.
At any rate, I've always felt Savatage had more music in them. Even with TSO, JOP and the others, there is that unique combination of Jon and Paul's songwriting and the band's particular talents that made the Savatage albums something special. There is something to be said for going out on top, and I feel the band was at the top of their game creatively when they stopped after P&M. That said, though, there still sounded like they had more they could have done with that formula, so here's hoping they have at least one (or a few) more left in them! (And if it is just one more, make it a double!)
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To be honest I'd be happy enough if TSO did a tour of Savatage music.
A new Sava album would be great but I don't see it happening.
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To be honest I'd be happy enough if TSO did a tour of Savatage music.
Something of the sort was discussed back in 2011 when they did the second year of the Beethoven's Last Night tour. Jon couldn't make it because a member of his family was hospitalized (plus Matt LaPorte died around that time too), but TSO has gradually been including more Savatage songs in their sets over the past several years, so I definitely think something like that is a very real possibility.
A new Sava album would be great but I don't see it happening.
Yeah, as far as a new album goes, I'm not getting my hopes up until there is an official announcement. If it happens though, I would be ecstatic beyond words! :o
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I was a pretty big fan of TSO at first, but it wore thin quickly.
I'd prefer a Savatage release, but in reality, the odds of it living up to my expectations are pretty low. Especially since I think Criss, Jon and Paul are the magical combination. I think Criss allowed Paul to bring just enough of his good qualities to the table, but when it starts to dominate things start to go south. Criss brought the fluid riff and solo factor that has been lacking since his demise.
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New interview with Chris Caffery.
https://bravewords.com/news/guitarist-chris-caffery-discusses-the-future-of-savatage-the-ultimate-decision-for-savatage-is-up-to-jon-oliva-audio
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Savatage, it's time to cut the shit and make a decision
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I only casually follow this band, and I know it can be really tough, but at this point I REALLY think fans need to just assume it's all over.
Just go full out with that, and if anything ever does happen, it'll just be a nice turn of events.
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I only casually follow this band, and I know it can be really tough, but at this point I REALLY think fans need to just assume it's all over.
Just go full out with that, and if anything ever does happen, it'll just be a nice turn of events.
While you are 100% correct, when TSO, Jon Oliva's Pain/solo, CIIC, Chris Caffery solo are all still very very active, I think that's where the frustration and hope from the fans come.
I personally don't think we'll see a full blown reunion and album, and am not expecting it, it certainly is a bit of a waste IMO.
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Yeah, when they just played their first show in 13 years, it seems like an odd time to assume it's over, especially when the band members are still saying there may be more concerts similar to what ahppened at Wacken. If there was a time to give up on a Savatage reunion, it would have been back in 2007-2010, when Jon Oliva was saying it would never happen.
I honestly am not expecting a new album or anything like that. If it happens, great, but given how much time and effort those guys already have committed to recording TSO records, I highly doubt it would ever happen. And I am not expecting Savatage to go out on a tour full of club dates like they did back in the old days.
But a TSO non-holiday tour with a Savatage set, featuring members of Savatage? That I think is definitely in the cards. They've been talking about such a thing since the 2011 Beethoven's Last Night tour, and they have increasingly been bringing more Savatage songs into their sets over the last few years. So i can certainly see them doing something like that.
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If they won't release a DVD out of Wacken, I have absolutely no hope of anything coming out of them other than some best of-s. It seemed like a good way to put Savatage to rest with this show.
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I kind of get the feeling that Jon and Paul are excessively perfectionist when it comes to live albums. I mean, in the entire 20 years Savatage was active, there were only two live albums (Japan Live '94 and Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins), the first of which had a corresponding live video. There was another live album (Live Devastation) from the GB tour that was fully completed, but never got released, save for a few promo copies (which were then heavily bootlegged). Consider the fact that the band also records pretty much everything TSO has ever done, and yet, TSO are going on 20 years themselves and there has not been a single TSO live album/video.
For whatever reason, they seem to have incredibly high standards for their live releases to the point that almost nothing ever get released. They probably only let Final Bell/Ghost in the Ruins out because they felt they needed to do some kind of tribute to Criss. I honestly don't know how Japan Live '94 saw the light of day though. It's a great live album/video to be sure, but I can't see what makes it so much better then the plethora of bootlegged Savatage vids I've seen over the years from other tours. Maybe because it was the final show for the HOR tour, so it was sort of like the end of an era? I dunno, but that's the best reason I can come up with...
BTW, I edited the setlist from Wacken on the last page. All the songs were correct, but a few of them were out of order.
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I've been listening to Streets today, and I've always wondered why this band didn't get bigger than they did. They were on Atlantic Records, even without selling a Platinum or Gold album. Did they headline most of their own tours, or ever support a bigger band? I think it would have been awesome to see a band like Savatage in the early 90's with Queensryche, for example.
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Yeah, coincidentally, I lucked out and bought Streets for 5 euro´s a couple of weeks ago. What a great album. Streets was huge in my opinion. I used to see a clip of one of the songs on MTV Headbanger´s Ball all the time. Wonder why they didn´t make it bigger than they did.
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I'm going to do an in depth analysis of why Savatage was never able to break big throughout their careers in the Savatage Discography thread, but as far as the Streets era specifically goes, I think part of it was just bad timing, seeing as the album came out right before the gunge explosion. The record was very heavy on power ballads at a time when power ballads became passé. Beyond that, though, Jon also blew his voice out on that tour, so the promotion for that album was cut somewhat short due to Jon having to step down as lead singer. Between the rise of grunge and Jon losing his voice, the band wasn't really in a position to give the album the big push it needed.
At least the video for "Jesus Saves" actually did surprisingly well on MTV, given the circumstances. A second video was shot for "NYC Don't Mean Nothing", but was subsequently lost and never aired. Thanks to Jesus Saves, the band managed to remain at least successful enough to keep going, but the timing just wasn't there for them in that moment to break big. A damn shame, too, since that record is one of the finest ever made.
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Streets is an amazing album but I just don't see much mainstream appeal with it
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Streets is an amazing album but I just don't see much mainstream appeal with it
ditto
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I think part of the reason Savatage didn't enjoy the success Queensryche did is Jon's voice. While I love it to bits, it can be a turn off for a lot of people I"ve recommended the band to over the years. Some eventually grow to like it, some don't.
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I've always preferred Zak's voice to Jon's.
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I've always preferred Zak's voice to Jon's.
Imagine Jon singing All That I Bleed. :rollin
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He sings on the acoustic version, and I've heard him sing the song live. It actually comes across pretty well, and it really helps to illustrate the stylistic continuity from Streets to Edge of Thorns that I think is sometimes overlooked due to the change of singers. I think it's worth noting that pretty much all the songs on Edge of Thorns and Handful of Rain were originally written for Jon's voice, so those songs still sound pretty natural with him on vocals, and he plays them live with JOP regularly. I do still prefer Zaks voice on a lot of those songs, but I think Jon can to them justice.
As for Jon's voice being one of reasons Savatage was not able to break big, yeah, I think there is a bit of that, too. In a few months, after I do my write-up for Poets and Madmen in the discography thread, I'm going to explore in depth why I think Savatage failed to attain mainstream success, so I will discuss that a bit more thoroughly when the time comes. For now, I will simply agree that during the Gutter Ballet and Streets era, Jon's vocal style was one factor (among others) that probably did hold the band back a bit from getting bigger then they were.
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We'll keep it short, but based on the comments here would the band have been bigger if Zak joined before HOTMK or GB?
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We'll keep it short, but based on the comments here would the band have been bigger if Zak joined before HOTMK or GB?
To be honest, I don't think Zak's voice would have help much on the pre-HOTMK materiel, or even on HOTMK itself. A lot of the music on those records was really not suited to his voice (I've commented before on how the band cut back considerably on pre-EoT songs during the EoT and HoR tours most likely for that reason).
Now on Gutter Ballet and Streets, I do think his voice could have helped somewhat with the commercial appeal of those records. I've always loved his rendition of "Jesus Saves" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTr-tgzcWaI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTr-tgzcWaI) ) and he sings the ballads from that era very well ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKqBNvKJLK8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKqBNvKJLK8) ). A lot of those songs were pure magic songwriting wise, and given how much airplay "Edge of Thorns" got (and this was in 93, after grunge hit), it does indeed make me wonder if the band could have gotten bigger during the 89-92 period with Zak at the helm.
That being said, though, there are some songs from that era that are quintessentially Jon's. I have a very hard time hearing "Believe" sung by anyone but him. Even the TSO version from Night Castle just sounds a bit off to my ears without Jon on the mic.
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Jon Oliva has so much more character and depth to his singing. I shudder in horror thinking about if the all time classics Gutter Ballet and Streets were recorded with Zak. And I clicked on the '94 live version and it only confirmed it. Also confirmed that while Skolnick did a great job on Handful of Rain, Criss was the guitar of Savatage. Criss and Jon had so much depth to their respective parts of the Savatage sound.
It is also why I'd probably get excited about a new Savatage album, I'd more than likely be disappointed.
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For what it's worth, I personally would not change a thing as far as who sang on what album in Savatage (except for Poets and Madmen, cause I really wanted to hear an album that was split 50/50 between Jon and Zak). Jon was the original voice, and he was perfect for what the band was doing in the 80's and into the early 90's. That being said, I do feel that the band had gone about as far as they could have with only his voice on Streets. While they hypothetically could have just continued on with a more metal sound once Jon got his voice back, Jon, Criss and Paul had grander ambitions for where they wanted to the band to go musically. Part of that vision necessitated bringing in a new voice, at first to fill in for Jon while his voice healed, and then later to work in tandem with his own to expand their sound. Jon was, and still is, a damn versatile singer, but even he has his limits. Bringing in a singer like Zak, who was about as different from Jon as could be, added a whole new element to their music, and set the stage for what they would later do with multiple singers in TSO,
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I think P&M would have benefited with a 50/50 split as well
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I don't know, I absolutely love Poets and Madmen. I'd put it on the same level as Gutter Ballet, personally. Jon is amazing in it and as much as I like Zak as well, I just can't imagine it being better with 50% less Jon in it.
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P&M is perfect the way it is. I personally am happy Zak isn't on that one.
I just can't imagine it being better with 50% less Jon in it.
No way, it wouldn't be, it's made for Jon, the whole damn thing.
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Technically speaking, only a little over half the album was written for Jon, since the whole thing was supposed to be split between Jon and Zak. The songs that made it to the final album were basically the songs that Jon felt still sounded good with just his voice. Consequently, one or two songs (including the title track) were cut, and "Stay With Me Awhile" was added at the last minute. (Almost literally; a mere month before the album was released, the official track-listing contained only 10 tracks, before "Stay With Me Awhile" was added.) The song "The Nonsensical Ravings of a Lunatic Mind" from the first JOP record was actually one of the lost tracks from P&M, possibly the title track, presumably drastically re-written. Even a lot of the songs to make the album proper were allegedly rearranged for Jon's voice. To what extent, though, I'm not sure, although I believe "Morphine Child", "The Rumor", and "Back to a Reason" were supposed to be, primarily Zak songs, while some of the other tracks, like "Drive", were supposed to have dual lead vocals.
I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. On the one hand, Jon does sing the whole record very well, and I do greatly enjoy the final track-list. I cannot imagine the record without "Stay With Me Awhile". On the other hand though, I would be very interested to have heard those lost tracks, and based on the live performances that were done with Damon Jiniya, many of those songs would have sounded very good with split vocals. At the very least, I wish they had at least recorded some of Zak's vocal parts, since they ended up using dual vocals on the tour anyways. And I do think that moving forward with the album without Zak was a huge mistake, although my reasons for that have less to do with quality of the record itself and more to do with how I feel Zak's departure and a new round of line-up changes might have lead to Jon's disillusionment with Savatage. But I will go into that in a few months in the Discography thread...
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I didn't know that info about P&M. Your sure know your Savatage DM.
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He sings on the acoustic version, and I've heard him sing the song live. It actually comes across pretty well, and it really helps to illustrate the stylistic continuity from Streets to Edge of Thorns that I think is sometimes overlooked due to the change of singers. I think it's worth noting that pretty much all the songs on Edge of Thorns and Handful of Rain were originally written for Jon's voice, so those songs still sound pretty natural with him on vocals, and he plays them live with JOP regularly. I do still prefer Zaks voice on a lot of those songs, but I think Jon can to them justice.
You know what, I am taking back what I said. Jon Oliva could sing All That I Bleed well, and it's my fault that I did not look for this version.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyyHhpYsX8g
I always mention All That I Bleed because that song just really resonates with me. It's one of the songs that genuinely makes me sad when I hear it. Especially as they used to play it to give tribute to Criss.
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Morphine Child and The Rumor are one of my favourite Jon performances on this album, so I'm glad that turned out the way it did. And yeah, Stay With Me Awhile is fucking amazing.
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You know what, I am taking back what I said. Jon Oliva could sing All That I Bleed well, and it's my fault that I did not look for this version.
I honestly thought you were fully aware of the version and were being snarky.
Criss is one of those deaths that still don't feel real to me even after a couple of decades. He was something very special. When you pick up a guitar and play his stuff it just feels so on. The musicality is off the charts.
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You know what, I am taking back what I said. Jon Oliva could sing All That I Bleed well, and it's my fault that I did not look for this version.
I honestly thought you were fully aware of the version and were being snarky.
Criss is one of those deaths that still don't feel real to me even after a couple of decades. He was something very special. When you pick up a guitar and play his stuff it just feels so on. The musicality is off the charts.
I agree...............I still have the Gutter Ballet tab book around somewhere which I have seen go for hundreds on Ebay :lol
One of the many things I loved about his playing was the sudden rhythm changes taking a song somewhere else entirely like at the end of songs like Hounds and Follow Me.
As far as vocalists go ..........I will always love Edge of Thorns and select songs off the rest but Jon will always be the voice of Savatage to me. He has a polarising tone but the ability to convincingly do the softer stuff and the maniacal metal is not something many can pull off. And that's why I love Gutter Ballet so much as it's such a great mix of the two.
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There is something really unique about Criss's playing that I just can't put my finger on. On so many songs he had the amazing ability to drive the music without being overpowering. It was really tasteful. I don't know how to explain it fully but I thought about while listening to EOT in the car today.
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You know what, I am taking back what I said. Jon Oliva could sing All That I Bleed well, and it's my fault that I did not look for this version.
I honestly thought you were fully aware of the version and were being snarky.
No, I just imagined Gutter Ballet Jon singing All That I Bleed. My bad. :rollin
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There is something really unique about Criss's playing that I just can't put my finger on. On so many songs he had the amazing ability to drive the music without being overpowering. It was really tasteful. I don't know how to explain it fully but I thought about while listening to EOT in the car today.
Every bit of lead work he did had it's place in the song. He had such a creative flow with his soloing but nothing ever sounded overstated or left the listener thinking that it was uneccesary. His work always complimented the song, and his note choices and phrasing really made his solos sing and memorable.
His shred moments always went with the song too, like Follow Me or He Carves His Stone, his leads reach climax just like the songs themselves do, always at the perfect times. Then in songs like Tonight He Grins Again, such a mellow moody piece, where he'll just do a couple of fills here and there to build the atmosphere, but for some reason, it's perfect and doesn't need any extra noodling whatsoever.
He was just a brilliant and underrated guitarist.
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Jon's lower register is one of the best. It sounds so deep and powerful, even when sung in a mellow way. It's like feeling a loud bass at a concert rocking your insides up. And on the other hand you got those demonic shrieks and him utilizing his voice so well and fitting.
It's always been a dream of mine to hear him on an Ayreon album.
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Some pro-shot footage from the Wacken show made it's way to youtube:
Dead Winter Dead: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMQkpdip8o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVMQkpdip8o)
24 Hours Ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLxF6Fl-h9w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLxF6Fl-h9w)
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Amazing performances, wow. Jon sounds fucking incredible too. Caffery always does Criss' work proud too.
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Yeah it does sound good........although I wonder how long Jon would last singing like that on a tour. And the amount of smoke etc....would make it hard to produce a quality DVD it seems to me. That footage looks good but I am not sure it is "release quality". We'd buy it though ;D
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Loved the dueling vocals on Dead Winter Dead. Awesome!
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Yeah, a live cd/dvd I'd definitely, but yeah I noticed the amount of smoke around too.
Seeing Vitalij Kaprij there threw me off too at first. Then I remembered he plays for TSO.
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I'd still buy it within minutes of it being released
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Damn....taken down.
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As close to Savatage worship as I have ever heard...........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5sOBjgFhTo
I just pulled this album out for the first time in ages and it was bad enough at the start but when it got to the chorus my brain starting singing "Better listen to me........you son of a bitch" . Not a bad song but just a tad too obvious :lol None of the other songs on the album are like this by the way.
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As close to Savatage worship as I have ever heard...........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5sOBjgFhTo
I just pulled this album out for the first time in ages and it was bad enough at the start but when it got to the chorus my brain starting singing "Better listen to me........you son of a bitch" . Not a bad song but just a tad too obvious :lol None of the other songs on the album are like this by the way.
Oh, come on, that's as blatant as you can get. Every section is fucking ripped off. :lol
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Wow. That's up there with that Allen/Lande Edge of Thorns song
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I think that's even more blatant then the Allen/Lande song. Once "Lady of Winter" got past the intro, it sounded fairly original. The vocal melodies were different enough, and both the vocals and the music for the chorus were quite a departure from "Edge of Thorns", plus the subject of the lyrics was something else entirely.
This, though, sounds like a straight up rip off of "Of Rage and War", down to the riffs, the vocal melodies, and even the lyrics themselves. :lol
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Yeah, it's multiple sections ripping off multiple sections from the same song. It's quite unheard of.
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There is something really unique about Criss's playing that I just can't put my finger on. On so many songs he had the amazing ability to drive the music without being overpowering. It was really tasteful. I don't know how to explain it fully but I thought about while listening to EOT in the car today.
Every bit of lead work he did had it's place in the song. He had such a creative flow with his soloing but nothing ever sounded overstated or left the listener thinking that it was uneccesary. His work always complimented the song, and his note choices and phrasing really made his solos sing and memorable.
His shred moments always went with the song too, like Follow Me or He Carves His Stone, his leads reach climax just like the songs themselves do, always at the perfect times. Then in songs like Tonight He Grins Again, such a mellow moody piece, where he'll just do a couple of fills here and there to build the atmosphere, but for some reason, it's perfect and doesn't need any extra noodling whatsoever.
He was just a brilliant and underrated guitarist.
Just listened to the Edge of Thorns album again yesterday. What struck me is that Criss Oliva knows how to sound EPIC. I put him alongside Brian May as the best in knowing how to make a guitar sound so majestic.
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I agree............solos like When The Crowds are gone define epic guitar playing for me. Not particularly technical , just well constructed and beautiful. The first few notes of that solo do remind me a bit of Brian May . He also had a knack for using really well constructed backing rhythms to elevate a solo.
https://youtu.be/KoLbjaYpsNk?t=185
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Yes. I think what Criss and Brian know is that a majestic sound is really about build-up and well-constructed backing rhythms. The shredding is usually used to create a sense of anticipation which climaxes with slower melodic playing with a lot of sustained notes.
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Another one of my favs from him is Streets, definitely epic. I can see the Brian May comparison too.
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Didn't want to derail the discography thread conversation, but I was watching Jon's "Farewell Show" on Youtube. Did anybody get to catch the band around this time? Obviously it was a special show in the their hometown but the band has a great energy live, especially in a club. I wouldn't mind seeing Tage' today in a similar venue after seeing TSO in arenas the last few years.
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I can't really tell the exact size of the venue , but from what I can see, JOP typically plays clubs about that size.
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Pre- Wacken interview
https://youtu.be/UCXxnUOfcSo
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That was an awesome interview. Some very interesting comments from Jon, Paul and Al. I kind of figured they wouldn't give a definitive answer on the future of Savatage, given that it would largely be at the mercy of TSO's schedule. I thought the comments about choosing the setlist and the differences between Savatage and TSO was particularly enlightening. I think it really emphasizes how, to many of the guys in the band(s), the transition from Savatage to TSO was a logical evolution. I'm sure others will disagree but I can certainly see it from that point of view. I'm curious to see exactly what Jon and Paul have in store for Broadway. I know that's been an ambition of theirs going back to the Streets era. I also found it particularly noteworthy that apparently the possibility of the Wacken footage getting a DVD release was entirely at the mercy or the record label.
Cool stuff, though. Here's hoping there will be more Savatage shows in the future! :metal
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https://bravewords.com/news/zak-stevens-talks-the-next-steps-for-savatage-jon-oliva-writing-the-best-songs-since-streets-or-gutter-ballet
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So Jon is writing new Savatage music? YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS
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Until I actually see an official release date with artwork and a track listing, I will never hold my breath for anything new Savatage related.
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https://bravewords.com/news/zak-stevens-talks-the-next-steps-for-savatage-jon-oliva-writing-the-best-songs-since-streets-or-gutter-ballet
I hope to God that this ends up actually happening.
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Oh, please, please, please let there be a new album in the works. I started to get a little glimmer of hope when Jon mentioned in that Dr. Metal interview a couple years ago that he was up for writing some new Savatage material, possibly as EP. I remember thinking to myself "Paul would never let it just be an EP," and I think I may have been right. Nothing would make me more happy then a new Savatage album. That band really had a lot of creative gas left in the tank.
I noticed in the Wacken interview when Jon and Paul were talking about maybe doing something on Broadway, they mentioned something along the lines of letting "the kids" take the reigns of TSO for a while. Perhaps this means that now that TSO is in a position of pretty much unassailable popularity, they may now have the time to do more projects outside of TSO. A Savatage reunion might just be one of the items at the top of Jon and Paul's bucket list.
Come on, Jon, you know you want it just as much as we do.
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Until I actually see an official release date with artwork and a track listing, I will never hold my breath for anything new Savatage related.
I'm with Jay on this one. It would be unbelievable though. We can only hope.
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They might be Savashy.
You let something linger for too long and the expectations become impossible to live up to. It is almost a guaranteed disappointment. Not to mention there are kind of 3 phases of Savatage. The first phase (Sirens, Dungeons) had their moments but usually is not the favorite of most. The second (Mountain to Rain) is my SavaPrime. But there are quite a few fans for the third. The broadway prog transition to TSO. Obviously, I would be most thrilled with a 2nd phase style new album. The problem there is Criss was such a big part of that.
Me personally. I'd be happy with anything. But I'm guessing Jon/Paul would feel some pressure. Savatage went out leaving us wanting more. Going out on top. If they never release another Savatage album, they have that legacy intact.
As far as TSO, I almost feel like they missed me by about a decade. I was heavily into that whole "orchestra" type feel (let alone rock orchestra) that TSO would have been nirvana for me. And the Sarajevo song caught the end where I couldn't get enough of it. But TSO itself caught me as I was losing my love for that type of stuff. Thankfully, I don't set the trends and they were successful.
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I'd class HOR in the third era.
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If I had to hazard a guess as to what style a new Savatage album would sound like, I would imagine that it would most likely be in the style of the last three Savatage albums (Dead Winter Dead, The Wake of Magellan, Poets and Madmen). Very rock opera and very TSO-esque, but a bit heavier. For one thing, the band for this album will most likely comprise of the DWD/TWOM line-up. For another, Europe is Savatage's biggest market, and that DWD/TWOM era of the band was their most successful over there. I would expect Jon and Zak to split lead vocals 50/50, just like what was supposed to happen for P&M. However, I would expect the album to be a bit more varied then P&M, as I would think the band would want to showcase all the sides of Savatage, and not just the darker, heavier side.
Beyond that, I don't know what else to expect. I'm not sure if it would be a rock opera or not. On the one hand, I could see Jon and the band just wanting to make a straight forward rock album. But on the other hand, the reunion might give Paul some ideas for a story. Also, Jon has often said that Streets was his favourite Savatage record, so if he wants the band to make a masterpiece, that would be the reference point for what Jon thinks is the perfect Savatage record. Plus, as stated above, DWD and TWOM were the band's biggest albums in Europe, and both of those were rock operas. So I think there is a good chance it could be a rock opera.
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I'd class HOR in the third era.
Yeah, I was going to bring this up in the Discography thread at some point, but when I seperate Savatage into eras, I don't go by the line-up, because their membership changes so frequently. Rather, I go by who were the primary song writers.
First Era- Sirens, The Dungeons are Calling, Power of the Night, Fight for the Rock. Primary song writers were Jon and Criss Oliva.
Second Era- Hall of the Mountain King, Gutter Ballet, Streets, Edge of Thorns. Primary song writers were Jon, Criss and Paul.
Third Era- Handful of Rain, Dead Winter Dead, The Wake of Magellan, Poets and Madmen. Primary song writers were Jon and Paul.
It should be noted, though, that such divisions are somewhat imperfect. HoR was a straight-forward rock album, unlike the others of it's era. Likewise, EoT had Zak on leads, unlike the other albums of the second era. I sometimes consider EoT and HoR together to be something of a transition period between the second and third eras.
P&M is a bit different from DWD or TWOM, as it has Jon singing most of the leads rather then Zak. Plus Caffery was a much bigger part of the writing on P&M then he had been on previous albums. On the whole, however, it is similar enough to fit comfortably with those albums.
Again, though, it's all rather arbitrary. Savatage changed so much over the course of their career, it's difficult to discern where one era ends and a new one begins.
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What you listed there DM is what I'd go for too in terms of the eras.
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What you listed there DM is what I'd go for too in terms of the eras.
Ditto - and for me , although I like all eras, the 2nd blows the others away.
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What you listed there DM is what I'd go for too in terms of the eras.
Ditto - and for me , although I like all eras, the 2nd blows the others away.
When I was getting into the band, the third era I was quite partial too for quite a while, but really, the 2nd is where it's at.
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All Savatage kicks ass
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All Savatage kicks ass
Well, no one can argue with that.
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Agreed.
Nothing wrong with liking any era of Savatage. :metal
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I keep holding onto a tiny thread of hope that Savatage releases one more album and does a small US tour as sort of a farewell for the fans, even though they still kind of live on in TSO. It's not the same but at the same time, I was always more of a Savatage fan for their operatic and classical sounding songs as opposed to the straight-ahead rock/metal tracks.
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Found another interview with Jon and Paul from Wacken:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzURoR13oYs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzURoR13oYs)
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extensive interview with Jon here , conducted just before Christmas.
https://squintyt4e.livejournal.com/50850.html
I haven't read it all yet but he pretty much puts Savatage to bed from what I'm getting.
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Not really, but he says that IF they were to do another Savatage show, it should be as big as Wacken, a monumental event like playing at the Coliseum in Rome or something. He's brutally honest in saying that he does not care at all for playing in front of 1000 people in random clubs across Europe.
In the interview he says something I already knew, that when Christmas Eve Sarajevo was a Savatage song no one gave a shit about it, when they sold the exact same song as TSO it went number 1, that was it for Savatage basically, he couldn't keep two bands going at the same time while one was snubbed because it was "that heavy metal band from the '80s", and one was going multimillionaire with huge selling tours. In his eyes Savatage died anyway when Criss died, he kept it going only to honor his memory as long as he could.
Since it's the first time I pop in this thread, I may as well declare my deep love and appreciation for everything Savatage. I don't currently listen to them but there was a time when they probably were, basically, my "favorite" band, and I still regard it as a wonderful band that made awesome albums and songs. It's a shame they couldn't be as big as Metallica (Jon says in the interview they could have but managers screwed them up with bad business decisions) and carry on after Poets and Madmen, but Jon says he was writing more TSO-like stuff anyway.
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I get that they might do the odd show here and there , but to me that's not a "going concern."
Anyway..........looking forward to reading the whole thing.
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I think I would rather him officially shut the band down for good instead of always making these vague statements about the future of Savatage
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In the interview he's pretty clear, he's old so he doesn't want anymore to: 1) tour in clubs in front of 1000 people 2) play and sing full out heavy metal.
He says he would be up for a bigass Savatage show like the Wacken one, but that's it, there won't be any other Savatage album (unless it will be an acoustic outtakes collection) or any other tour with him in it.
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Well, I suppose this is as good a time as any to make my grand return to DTF :P
To be perfectly honest, a lot of what Jon says in that interview has been said before, albeit not in so much detail (I actually did not know about him losing his house, his cars, and his wife while trying to keep Savatage alive). He has made it very clear over the years that he feels Savatage effectively ended when Criss died, that he considers TSO to be the evolution of post-Criss Savatage, and that with TSO being so popular, there is no reason to keep Savatage active as a separate entity (conversely, that's also why he won't actually say Savatage is dead and buried, because to him it's just a continuation of the same band anyways). I don't think Wacken was that last we will see of Savatage. I'm sure TSO will continue to bring more Savatage songs back into their setlists, and we may even see a TSO tour where there is a Savatage set in the show, with Jon and Zak singing some of the classics we all love (like what was discussed for the 2011 Beethoven's Last Night tour). But I never expected for a second that Savatage would actually go out on the road playing clubs. That was never going to happen.
Now I am a bit disappointed that it looks like there won't be a new Savatage record. I think Zak might have misread what Jon meant when he said he was writing the best music since Gutter Ballet or Streets. I still don't think it's completely off the table, as Jon has said he was up for maybe doing some new Savatage material. But I think the issue is, as I have pointed out here before, why even bother releasing such new songs as Savatage when they could just release them as TSO and make a lot more money? Between TSO and Jon's solo/JOP stuff, he probably sees Savatage as being kind of redundant. It's a damn shame, because I feel those late-era Savatage records had an excellent balance of metal, symphonic and Broadway elements that neither TSO nor JOP ever fully captured (although Beethoven's Last Night came damn close). But while I may not be entirely happy with the situation, I get what he means about not wanting to be trapped in a box where he feels he needs to write music for a certain crowd and then go out on tour and sing "Sirens" every night. And, as I have also said here before, given how much of himself Jon poured into Savatage over the course of 20 or so years, I don't really feel right asking him for more. If he ever wants to do it, I will be there ready to tell him to "Shut up and take my money!", but beyond maybe some more Savatage-centric TSO tours like the Wacken show, I don't really feel like I should expect any more out of Savatage.
At any rate, I have high hopes for Jon's future work. Letters from the Labyrinth was pretty good, but much like Night Castle, it felt a little light compared to some of TSO's previous works. I am very eager to hear Romanov, however, as Jon has said that is a rather dark record, and very much in the vein of Dead Winter Dead or The Wake of Magellan. I am also curious to hear what Jon has in store for his JOP/solo band. Last I heard, he wanted to make the heaviest album of his career, so that should be interesting to see. I know he has also talked about doing something with guest singers, and he also mentioned that he still has a bunch of 70's retro-prog-rock-esque material left over from making Raise the Curtain, so it sounds like he still has a lot of musical ambitions to fulfill in his life. Given that he is getting up there in age, and especially in light of certain recent celebrity losses, I'm not going to begrudge Jon the opportunity to spend his twilight years however he sees fit.
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Well, you summed up brilliantly how I feel about the whole situation. For a long time I mourned the lack of Savatage activity when they were too busy with "Christmas stuff", but in time I've come to accept the situation. Jon's carreer, Jon's live, Jon's choices, the metal world owes him so much.
A crying shame that Savatage never became as big as they deserved, and of course that Criss died. At the very least, those album they did remain.
I wish too that TSO would go the Ritchie Blackmore way - with his medieval outfit, Blackmore's night, album by album he's covering Rainbow and Deep Purple, TSO with future releases and tours should more and more add Savatage songs in the set / albums.
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I saw TSO last year in Boston. It was...OK. I doubt I'd go to another one.
I've been getting my Savatage-ish metal itch scratched very effectively by Circle II Circle.
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I think I would rather him officially shut the band down for good instead of always making these vague statements about the future of Savatage
Totally this.
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I think I would rather him officially shut the band down for good instead of always making these vague statements about the future of Savatage
Totally this.
I kind of agree but I can't imagine what goes through his head when trying to ultimately decide what he wants to do. I mean, Savatage is his baby, something he started with his brother, and just saying he's done with it might be harder than we realize. Maybe one day he wakes up and wants to make a Savatage record like the old days, but the next day he realizes it's pointless.
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If he decides to call it a day with Savatage, there's still nothing saying he can't resurrect it and do something in the future.
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You're absolutely right. However, I feel like he wants to come to a final decision at this point in his life, instead of bouncing back and forth.
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It's probably just a hard thing to finally let go of it. If the band never announce that their finally finished it's like Jon has something to hold on to. A bit of hope. Come to think of it, he probably thinks keeping the name active or alive is for Criss. He probably would feel bad for Criss finally finishing up the band.
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That's exactly my point. It would be like finally closing the chapter on his life that was started with his brother. I don't think he'll ever be able to officially say Savatage is done.
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I think as long as the entire DWD/TWOM lineup of Savatage is active in TSO, Jon will never say that Savatage is over. For one thing, from his point of view the band is still together making records and touring, even if they are doing neither under the Savatage name. For another, so long as that lineup remains together in TSO, there will always be the possibility of TSO doing some sort of Savatage related event, like the Wacken show, or the scuttled Savatage set for the 2011 spring tour. If Jon said Savatage was dead and buried, and then all six guys get together and played a set of 8 or so Savatage songs on a TSO tour, it would look contradictory, and would probably interpreted as a ruse to get more of Savatage's metal fans to attend TSO concerts (and there are some who already feel the Wacken show was exactly that). So announcing the disbanding of Savatage would not only be pointless, it could also create more issues with the fans then simply leaving Savatage in limbo. Jon doesn't want that kind of headache. Not saying Savatage is gone at least gives the fans hope, and leaves the door open for TSO to do something Savatage related. The only thing for Jon to gain by saying the band is over and done with would just be a whole new set of problems with the fans, and he has enough of that already.
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Bump.
This is pretty cool. Jon joined Obituary, of all bands, on stage at a recent metal festival in Florida. They performed "The Dungeons are Calling" and "City Beneath the Surface".
Check it! (https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/video-jon-oliva-performs-savatage-classics-with-obituary/)
:metal
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I wish TSO would use Zak more on the albums. Not a fan of many of the singers that they use and Zak was awesome in rock operas like Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan
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I wish TSO would use Zak more on the albums. Not a fan of many of the singers that they use and Zak was awesome in rock operas like Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan
I agree. I would enjoy the TSO albums 100X more if it was Zak on the mic.
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Jon joined Obituary
Don't scare me like that. Do you know what that does to people that quickly skim over the conversation and pick up the words Jon and Obituary separated by only one word?
With his weight issues and 2016 being the year no musician is safe, you made my heart skip a beat. Thankfully I'm only a hack musician.
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Had to bump this thread when I saw it was Criss' birthday today. RIP Criss, your impact on many of us fans will never be forgotten! :metal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmCpHTsRMqE
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I happened to go to Tampa today, and figured I'd check out the crash site, since I had done research on where it was. The road is very different from when he was killed, but the lack of a homemade memorial was kind of sad.
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I happened to go to Tampa today, and figured I'd check out the crash site, since I had done research on where it was. The road is very different from when he was killed, but the lack of a homemade memorial was kind of sad.
That's really shit.
RIP Criss.
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Didn't find a proper TSO thread, so I'll post in this.
Devasting and horrible news: Paul O' Neill has died :'(
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/trans-siberian-orchestra-creator-paul-oneill-dies-at-61/
A huge and unfair blow to TSO and to Savatage, the band he essentially saved back in 1987. Jon Oliva had already lost a blood brother but now he lost a musical brother, it's so sad.
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Wow sad news
RIP
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:( :( :(
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Wow, that's big. April 5th claims another.
Wonder what his chronic illness was.
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Didn't find a proper TSO thread, so I'll post in this.
Devasting and horrible news: Paul O' Neill has died :'(
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/trans-siberian-orchestra-creator-paul-oneill-dies-at-61/
A huge and unfair blow to TSO and to Savatage, the band he essentially saved back in 1987. Jon Oliva had already lost a blood brother but now he lost a musical brother, it's so sad.
Just shocking and horrible news. RIP Paul, you will be missed.
Don't forget Jon also lost his JOP brother Matt LaPorte a few years back too. Poor fella can't catch a break.
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You're right... truly unfair for him to go through so many losses.
I remember an interview with Jon Oliva about the new singers that performed at Wacken when TSO and Savatage performed together, and Jon presented them essentially as the new blood, the next generation of performers... I wonder how far in advance he and Paul planned TSO's future activities and what contingencies they may had.
For sure, without the soul and lyricist of the band, it will never be the same, even if the future Christmas tours will go on for decades. Damn, this is one of the music deaths that hurts me the most since Ronne James Dio's passing. :-[
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Reports coming through that Paul O'Neill's death has been ruled an accidental overdose of "prescription medication" including methadone, codeine and Valium. :-\
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If that's true that's horrible bad luck :sad:
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He was pretty obviously addicted to prescribed painkillers and overdid it.........it seems that his medical afflictions lead to a painkiller addiction - whether there was a "recreational" component I don't know. Methadone is pretty much exclusively for heroin withdrawal in my country but I know some doctors (mostly overseas) still use it for chronic pain when other treatments fail.
Either way the fact that he didn't die from natural causes and didn't intend to commit suicide is pretty tragic. Not unlike Heath Ledger in that respect.
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That makes a tragic thing even more terrible.
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Reports coming through that Paul O'Neill's death has been ruled an accidental overdose of "prescription medication" including methadone, codeine and Valium. :-\
OK, not to be an ass here, but aren't there Doctor's orders when taking these? Is the doctor responsible, or did he not follow directions regarding mixing and quantities?
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On a more positive note, I have recently re-discovered the greatness of Wake of Magellan. I bought it when it came out, didn't like it, got rid of it. Now almost 20 years later, I'm revisiting it and I'm really enjoying it. :metal
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I was thrown off initially by Wake of Magellan too. But it clicked after a few more listens.
I really like the instrumental, "The Ocean" and wanted it to be longer. Such a cool tune.
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I really liked Wake Of Magellan from the beginning. A good combination of rockers and softer songs and although the story is a bit all over the place the flow of the songs is really good.
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The Wake of Magellan is a fantastic album!
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I really dug listening to it this morning.
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The Wake of Magellan, along with Handful of Rain, was one of the Savatage albums that took the longest time to click with me. While I liked it very much on first listen, the warmer guitar tone and the overall more guitar driven vibe of the record was a bit of a disappointment to me, especially since I loved the colder, more symphonic sound of Dead Winter Dead so much. Also, other then "Morning Sun" and "The Storm", not many of the tracks on the album really stood out to me on first listen. It wasn't until sometime later when I heard someone talking about how insanely good the title track was that I decided to go back and give it a closer listen, and when I did the record finally connected with me. In addition to "The Wake of Magellan" (which is now one of my top 5 Sava-tracks), so many other songs on the album have become true classics for me, especially "Turns to Me", "Blackjack Guillotine" and "Paragons of Innocence", and the record as a whole ranks along side Dead Winter Dead and Streets in my top 3 Savatage albums. In fact, these days it has pretty much passed up Streets and is rivaling Dead Winter Dead for the title of my favorite Savatage album of them all.
With Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan, Savatage had finally refined the Symphonic Broadway Metal style they had pioneered on Hall of the Mountain King and Gutter Ballet down to a science. The chemistry and sound the band achieved during the 1995-1999 era was just so incredibly majestic and powerful, it is a damn shame that era of the band didn't last a bit longer. Poets and Madmen is still a fantastic record, but I definitely have come to feel that the band lost something special when Zak and Al left (though Al still performed on P&M). The TSO albums also retained much of what had made that period of the band so grandiose and epic, but with the sole exception of Beethoven's Last Night, I felt that ethereal special something had largely become a shadow of its former self on the TSO records.
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Yeah, I agree DWD and Magellan were real growers but it obviously paid off. Love the atmosphere in both, incredible albums.
I really like the instrumental, "The Ocean" and wanted it to be longer. Such a cool tune.
Just brilliant. It's perfect but I wish they did something more with it also.
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I think the Dark Master might have a Savatage signal, like the bat signal, flash in the sky near his home whenever this thread is updated.
Nobody knows more about Savatage than DM, but you only see him around the rare cases this thread is updated lol.
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I think the Dark Master might have a Savatage signal, like the bat signal, flash in the sky near his home whenever this thread is updated.
I'll send out the signal!
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZYJu7wzhwfM/hqdefault.jpg)
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:metal
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I think the Dark Master might have a Savatage signal, like the bat signal, flash in the sky near his home whenever this thread is updated.
I'll send out the signal!
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ZYJu7wzhwfM/hqdefault.jpg)
Who the fuck is this?
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Um..Jon Oliva. ;D
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Um..Jon Oliva. ;D
oh, I didn't recognise him, he must have had a bit too much sun there.
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I know you've heard my Jon Oliva/Posessed Barney story before.
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I know you've heard my Jon Oliva/Posessed Barney story before.
Not ringing a bell, but it sounds like a riot.
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I've told it so many times, if you google image Posessed Barney and click on that pic, it takes you right to DTF!!!
Goes back to when I saw Savatage open for Dio/Megadeth in 1987. Jon Oliva had this long purple robe on. He stalked the stage screaming non stop. I've always said he looked like a possessed Barney!
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He must have been so drugged fucked to wear a long purple robe on stage!!
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It was bad. I don't want to depreciate in the Savatage thread, but I've commented before about it many times.
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I think the Dark Master might have a Savatage signal, like the bat signal, flash in the sky near his home whenever this thread is updated.
Nobody knows more about Savatage than DM, but you only see him around the rare cases this thread is updated lol.
To be honest, I felt so drained after completing the Savatage discography thread, I really didn't have the energy to post on DTF as frequently as I did in the past. That, plus my appendicitis and the fact that there were other projects in my life that I had neglected while writing that thread kind of drew me away from DTF for a while.
Of course, I continued to lurk here (and on Samsara's Breakdown Room froums), and considering my love for the band, any time I saw something posted about Savatage, I could not prevent myself from responding. I have seen some threads pop up here in the past month or so on which I have felt compelled to comment, so I may be a bit more active here then I have been in the past year or so.
Goes back to when I saw Savatage open for Dio/Megadeth in 1987. Jon Oliva had this long purple robe on. He stalked the stage screaming non stop. I've always said he looked like a possessed Barney!
He must have been so drugged fucked to wear a long purple robe on stage!!
Jon has often talked about how while touring with Dio and Megadeth he and Dave Mustaine spent a bit too much time hanging out together, which kind of fed into their bad habits (read: drugs and booze), which most likely affected his performances back in the day. I've seen a lot of bootleg Savatage footage from all periods of the band, and it is pretty clear that on the Hall of the Mountain King tour, Jon was in a less then stellar state of health. Apparently, the substance abuse reached such heights that Atlantic actually paid for Jon's rehab between Hall of the Mountain King and Gutter Ballet, on the understanding that if he did not clean up his act, Savatage would be dropped from the label.
Jon did cheat a bit (he convinced Criss and Paul to sneak some weed into the rehab center) but he did clean up considerably. He was noticeably healthier (and much, much slimmer) during the Gutter Ballet and Streets period then he had been before, but the combined trauma of losing his voice (which started to go even on the later parts of the Gutter Ballet tour), the death of Criss and all the changes Savatage endured between 1991 and 1995 took their toll on his health. While I believe he stayed off, or at least severely limited, his use of hard drugs during that period, he started drinking heavily again between Edge of Thorns and Handful of Rain and had visibly (re)gained much weight on the Handful of Rain tour.
I think from that point on until relatively recently (2011-2015 timeframe), Jon's health was in a downward spiral due to depression mounting from the loss of Criss and all the issues Savatage had endured. It wasn't until the death of Matt LaPorte that he started taking his health a bit more seriously again, a development that was given further impetus by Savatage reunion at Wacken. For his sake, if not for the sake of all his fans, I hope Jon continues to take better care of himself. With the loss of Paul, not to mention all the other celebrity deaths that have occurred over the past few years, I'm not ready to see the Mountain King pass away just yet.
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It's great to see you, Dark Master! :tup
And I agree, I really hope Jon keeps taking care of himself. I hate that these sorts of tragedies keep happening to him.
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Ditto the above re Jon - I dropped off a bit in the later years and haven't really listened to TSO much but the HoTMK - Edge of Thorns era of Savatage is one of my favourites of any band.
I can't say that too many of the celebrity deaths in recent times have touched me a great deal in a personal sense as very few have been artists that had any impact on me. Criss Oliva certainly did back in the day but , unlike these days , it took me some time to find out via magazines etc.......so it wasn't quite as "real" months later. I do wonder from time to time how awesome a follow up to Edge of Thorns could've been with Criss.
Paul O'Neill is a loss that I feel for sure but a little different to Criss. He was really a member of the band but (hopefully this comes across right) I don't feel quite as close to him as the others ..... in blunt terms he was just a name on the album sleeve who wrote and produced some of my favourite songs but I don't think I had seen a photo of him until recent years.
Anyway...........stay strong Jon :metal
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On a more positive note, I have recently re-discovered the greatness of Wake of Magellan. I bought it when it came out, didn't like it, got rid of it. Now almost 20 years later, I'm revisiting it and I'm really enjoying it. :metal
I love that album. I don't remember it taking too long to click with me. I got it for Christmas in 2001. It's probably my favorite post-Criss album. Definitely prefer it to Dead Winter Dead.
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On a more positive note, I have recently re-discovered the greatness of Wake of Magellan. I bought it when it came out, didn't like it, got rid of it. Now almost 20 years later, I'm revisiting it and I'm really enjoying it. :metal
I love that album. I don't remember it taking too long to click with me. I got it for Christmas in 2001. It's probably my favorite post-Criss album. Definitely prefer it to Dead Winter Dead.
As do I.
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Count me in for liking Magellan more than DWD, a lot more come to think of it.
And yeah, hopefully Jon keeps the healthy living up, it's good to see.
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I think the Dark Master might have a Savatage signal, like the bat signal, flash in the sky near his home whenever this thread is updated.
Nobody knows more about Savatage than DM, but you only see him around the rare cases this thread is updated lol.
I come here for DM's insight and knowledge.
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Wake Of Magellan is easily my favorite post-Criss album.
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Wake Of Magellan is easily my favorite post-Criss album.
Hmm, it's either that or Handful of Rain. Tough call.
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It's weird with Savs...they are a band I have to be in the mood for. And I find myself not wanting to listen to Oliva-fronted Savatage and Stevens-fronted Savatage together. It's either one or the other, depending on mood. They are just so different to my ears that it has to be mood driven. I just don't put on their albums and kick back. I have to wait for the mood to strike, and even then, figure out which one I prefer that day.
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It's weird with Savs...they are a band I have to be in the mood for. And I find myself not wanting to listen to Oliva-fronted Savatage and Stevens-fronted Savatage together. It's either one or the other, depending on mood. They are just so different to my ears that it has to be mood driven. I just don't put on their albums and kick back. I have to wait for the mood to strike, and even then, figure out which one I prefer that day.
I can understand that. Savatage went through such a dramatic evolution in their sound that different periods of their discography sound as if they were made by completely different bands. To the uninitiated, it would be completely understandable to think that records like Sirens or The Dungeons Are Calling were not made by the same guys who crafted Dead Winter Dead or The Wake of Magellan. When I am in the mood for Edge of Thorns, I am far more likely to have the desire to listen to any given TSO album then, say, Power of the Night.
Of course, there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for that. In a very real sense, the band that made Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan was not the same band that made Sirens or The Dungeons Are Calling. Savatage's lineup changed just as frequently as their musical style, and the constantly rotating membership doubtlessly had a major hand in their creative direction. Even the role of Jon Oliva, the only guy to be present in every incarnation of the band, was in a constant state of flux throughout the 20 years of Savatage's history, as he transitioned from being a front-man to a keyboardist/composer/co-producer.
Perhaps because of all this, I don't really divide Savatage's career based on who was in the band at any given time, even less so on who was singing on what particular record. Two of the "Zak albums" (Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan) have tracks with Jon on lead vocals. Jon sang on all of Poets and Madmen but half the record was originally written for Zak's voice, and the music as a whole has more in common with the Zak era of the band then the earlier Oliva fronted period of Savatage. Much of Edge of Thorns and Handful of Rain were written for Jon's voice, but both albums were sung entirely by Zak. The later albums from the Jon Oliva era, like Streets and Gutter ballet arguably show stronger musical continuity with the rock opera style of the Zak era then with the classic metal style of the earlier Oliva-fronted albums. And sometimes the band credited on an album is not who actually played on that album, as is the case with Handful of Rain.
For me personally, I think Savatage's career is better defined by who wrote which particular records rather then who performed on them. In that case, the Savatage discography can be divided rather neatly into three different eras:
The Jon Oliva/Criss Oliva period- Sirens, The Dungeons Are Calling, Power of the Night and Fight for the Rock. All of these records are more or less classic 80's style metal albums, though Fight for the Rock does flirt a bit with a more mainstream direction.
The Jon Oliva/Criss Oliva/Paul O'Neill period- Hall of the Mountain King, Gutter Ballet, Streets and Edge of Thorns. Over the course of these four records, Savatage transformed itself by incorporating progressive, classical and Broadway elements into their music, while still retaining much 80's metal bite in their sound, mostly thanks to Criss Oliva's excellent riffs and solos.
The Jon Oliva/Paul O'Neill period- Handful of Rain, Dead Winter Dead, The Wake of Magellan and Poets and Madmen. With Criss gone, the songwriting evolved to become almost completely dominated by the vocal and orchestral elements of Savatage. While the classic metal element of the band is still present here, the guitar, bass and drums largely serve to add some metal "omph" to the music rather then being the foundation of the songwriting itself, as had been the case in the past.
Admittedly, this periodization is not perfect. It can be argued that Hall of the Mountain King has more in common with the classic metal albums that preceded it then with records like Streets or Edge of Thorns, albums that strongly foreshadow the direction of later era Savatage, as well as TSO. Likewise Poets and Madmen is noticeably more guitar driven then the albums that had immediately come before, largely thanks to Chris Caffery's heavy involvement in the songwriting, and combined with Jon's return as lead vocalist, can be reasonably considered a return to the Gutter Ballet and Streets period of the band. But by and large, I feel the overall sound of Savatage was more strongly defined in any given period by the songwriting, rather then by the lineup.
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Never saw their discography that way... but your division makes sense!
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Dark Master..always appreciated!
@JJ...the signal still works!!! :lol
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Dark Master..always appreciated!
@JJ...the signal still works!!! :lol
It's like when you're trying to lure your cat out from under the bed by bribing them with tuna and catnip! :P
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:lol
:metal
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Whenever I see DM's posts, I kick back and relax to enjoy it. :biggrin:
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I see his posts, and then I'm like, 'Fuck it, I'll be late for work again but I don't even care!'
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I don't think there is any doubt that DM knows more about Savatage than any actual band member knows about the band.
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DM's posts on the subjects are must reads and I don't even like Savatage! :lol
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DM's posts on the subjects are must reads and I don't even like Savatage! :lol
:rollin
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I don't think there is any doubt that DM knows more about Savatage than any actual band member knows about the band.
The band members probably secretly come in here as guests just to read shit they didn't know about themselves.
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I don't even like Savatage! :lol
I don't know how to process that.
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I'm working on putting together a Savatage guitar tablature book, and have 131 songs completely transcribed. I've contacted the band and some of its members several times, but haven't gotten a response yet. Update: I've since heard back from Jeff Plate regarding this project. I've started discussions on some of the Savatage facebook fan pages and gotten a lot of interest so far. Let me know if any of you would be interested, and if there are particular songs you'd like to see in the book! I can confidently say that these are very accurate transcriptions, I've spent a ton of time on them, way better than the tabs floating around on the internet. Here's a sample of my work: https://youtu.be/1GCzBnens60
Here's a list of the songs I have done, per album:
Sirens: Sirens, Rage, Twisted Little Sister, Living For The Night, Scream Murder
The Dungeons Are Calling (full album)
Power Of The Night (full album)
Fight For The Rock (full album)
Hall Of The Mountain King (full album)
Gutter Ballet (full album)
Streets (full album)
Edge Of Thorns (full album + Forever After and Shotgun Innocence)
Handful Of Rain (full album)
Ghost In The Ruins: Post Script
Dead Winter Dead (full album)
The Wake Of Magellan (full album)
Poets & Madmen (full album)
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That cover was on point bro. There was no solo in the pdf version though?
I'd pay for some of these transcriptions I think.
He Carves His Stone bro, He Carves His Stone.
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That cover was on point bro. There was no solo in the pdf version though?
I'd pay for some of these transcriptions I think.
He Carves His Stone bro, He Carves His Stone.
Thanks for the feedback! You'll be happy to know that I started working on He Carves His Stone a couple days ago. I have all of the rhythms done, just need to finish up the solos.
Sorry about the Drive PDF, I forgot to export the lead track from Guitar Pro. Here's the link:
https://www.mediafire.com/?0y6sa1bdw7y32cz
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Good stuff man.
What are you expecting to get out of doing these transcriptions?
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Good stuff man.
What are you expecting to get out of doing these transcriptions?
I really just want to get them to as many fans as possible. Having the band endorse them would obviously help reach the most people. I've messaged and emailed Chris Caffery like 10 times since April, still no response, which is frustrating because he posts on facebook every day. My dream scenario would be to sit down with Jon and be able to listen to the isolated master tracks. Regardless, I'm very confident in their accuracy, and I can assure that the transcriptions will be released, whether in print, digital, etc. I think this is important to preserve Criss' legacy.
Also, there was a Gutter Ballet book published by Cherry Lane in 1990. Long since out of print, but I have a PDF of it. So far, I'd say it's decent, but can definitely be improved. I transcribed the title track last week and made some corrections and improvements, it's now more accurate to how Criss played it.
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Finally finished up Power Of The Night today, there are a lot of leads and fills so it took a while. Also transcribed Can You Hear Me Now last week, which contains maybe my favorite Criss Oliva riff at 2:39. I updated my original post of all the songs I've completed.
Hopefully Dark Master sees my post, I'd value his input/suggestions.
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Anyone want a full album guitar book for The Wake of Magellan? :metal
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Anyone want a full album guitar book for The Wake of Magellan? :metal
Oh yes! I've actually been listening to The Wake of Magellan a lot recently, so I would be very interested in seeing that. Actually, I've been thinking about doing a Savatage discography run for myself, so I could probably look over the tabs you have done so far, since the music will be fresh in my head. It's really cool what you've done so far though, the world needs more Savatage tablature out there. :tup
Incidentally, I noticed that TSO put out an announcement stating their intention to perform The Ghosts of Christmas Eve again for their winter tour this year. I can understand them wanting to play it safe in the wake of Paul's passing, but I sincerely hope they take more risks with their live shows in the future (more non-christmas tours; more Savatage songs in the set; etc.) There is a part of me that fears that without Paul's ambition and vision, Jon will just be content to take the safe road and rehash the Christmas shows. Since 2010, TSO has shown signs of breaking out of their holiday shell (Beethoven's Last Night tours, European tours, Wacken, and overall more Savatage in the setlists) so I hope that trend continues into the future.
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I have two songs left on The Wake Of Magellan, I just finished adding all the piano parts to Paragons Of Innocence. I guess my worst case scenario is that no one gets back to me before the TSO tour, and I can just go to a show and give them my transcriptions, lol.
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Just finished up the entire Wake of Magellan album! I'm very happy with these transcriptions, there are several songs on this album that I haven't seen any tabs for, let alone accurate ones.
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Here are all the Savatage tabs I've uploaded for free on Ultimate Guitar, please rate them if you have a second!
All That I Bleed: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/s/savatage/all_that_i_bleed_solo_guitar_pro.htm
One Child: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/s/savatage/one_child_guitar_pro.htm
Blackjack Guillotine: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/s/savatage/blackjack_guillotine_guitar_pro.htm
Commissar: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/s/savatage/commissar_guitar_pro.htm
Drive: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/s/savatage/drive_guitar_pro.htm
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Also, there was a Gutter Ballet book published by Cherry Lane in 1990. Long since out of print, but I have a PDF of it.
I have an original :metal
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Also, there was a Gutter Ballet book published by Cherry Lane in 1990. Long since out of print, but I have a PDF of it.
I have an original :metal
That's cool. I plan on doing at least one more song from GB, that old book can definitely be improved upon. I actually tracked down the guy who transcribed it back in 1990, to see if he could help get me in touch with the band/publishers. Unfortunately, he never communicated with the band, all of his transcribing was done independently.
In other news, I've finished Follow Me (one of my favorites, took a long time to transcribe all of it though), All That I Bleed, and Hyde.
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Got these done in the past few days: Living For The Night, The Dungeons Are Calling, and By The Grace Of The Witch. I'm going to focus on Sirens next, which I already have mostly done. At this point, I've reached my personal goal of at least one song per album, though there are still several songs I plan on transcribing.
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I got these songs done this past week: Sirens, Hard For Love, When The Crowds Are Gone, Hounds, and Summer's Rain.
I decided to make Hard For Love available for free, please rate and comment!
https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/s/savatage/hard_for_love_guitar_pro.htm#c_5229065
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I'd pay for some of these transcriptions I think.
He Carves His Stone bro, He Carves His Stone.
Just finished this song today! Definitely one of the more time consuming transcriptions of this entire project, Criss' playing was truly at its peak here.
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Here's my transcription of Anymore: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/s/savatage/anymore_guitar_pro.htm
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Here's a few more free uploads:
Doesn't Matter Anyway: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/s/savatage/doesnt_matter_anyway_guitar_pro.htm
I Am: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/s/savatage/i_am_guitar_pro.htm
Sarajevo: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/s/savatage/sarajevo_ver2_guitar_pro.htm
Overture: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/s/savatage/overture_guitar_pro.htm
I've also been transcribing some Jon Oliva's Pain, Doctor Butcher, and Circle II Circle. I haven't done solos for most of these, I may add them later:
JOP
Pain: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/j/jon_olivas_pain/pain_guitar_pro.htm
All The Time: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/j/jon_olivas_pain/all_the_time_guitar_pro.htm
Through The Eyes Of The King: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/j/jon_olivas_pain/through_the_eyes_of_the_king_guitar_pro.htm
Maniacal Renderings: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/j/jon_olivas_pain/maniacal_renderings_guitar_pro.htm
Time To Die: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/j/jon_olivas_pain/time_to_die_guitar_pro.htm
Push It To The Limit: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/j/jon_olivas_pain/push_it_to_the_limit_guitar_pro.htm
Who's Playing God: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/j/jon_olivas_pain/whos_playing_god_guitar_pro.htm
Adding The Cost: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/j/jon_olivas_pain/adding_the_cost_guitar_pro.htm
Doctor Butcher
The Altar (intro): https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/d/doctor_butcher/the_altar_intro_guitar_pro.htm
Reach Out And Torment Someone: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/d/doctor_butcher/reach_out_and_torment_someone_guitar_pro.htm
Don't Talk To Me: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/d/doctor_butcher/dont_talk_to_me_guitar_pro.htm
CIIC
The Circle: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/c/circle_ii_circle/the_circle_guitar_pro.htm
Lies: https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/c/circle_ii_circle/lies_guitar_pro.htm
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My playthrough of Strange Wings: https://youtu.be/e4V4RiGSLdc
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I just finished transcribing the entire Edge of Thorns album! I got a response a few weeks ago from Jeff Plate, he's going to take a look at my transcriptions and get back to me. Fingers crossed!
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I just finished transcribing the entire Edge of Thorns album! I got a response a few weeks ago from Jeff Plate, he's going to take a look at my transcriptions and get back to me. Fingers crossed!
Wow, that's great!
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I just finished transcribing the entire Edge of Thorns album! I got a response a few weeks ago from Jeff Plate, he's going to take a look at my transcriptions and get back to me. Fingers crossed!
Wow, that's great!
Thanks, I'm glad to see more and more fans interested in this project! I just finished transcribing Believe yesterday, which brings my total to 65 songs. If anyone's interested, I started a conversation on one of the Savatage fan pages on facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/SavatageWacken2015/permalink/1705450376150192/ Just join the group!
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I just finished transcribing the entire Edge of Thorns album! I got a response a few weeks ago from Jeff Plate, he's going to take a look at my transcriptions and get back to me. Fingers crossed!
Wow, that's pretty sweet mate.
You seem to spend a lot of time on all of these and sharing them out for free which is very kind, are you wanting to get something apporved from the band themselves before trying to release it?
Have you tried getting a job and working for a company that transcribes books like Hal Leonord etc. or approach them yourself to publish something of your own? I'm not sure how it all works, but you have a lot of dedication and time to this without any return it seems.
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I just finished transcribing the entire Edge of Thorns album! I got a response a few weeks ago from Jeff Plate, he's going to take a look at my transcriptions and get back to me. Fingers crossed!
Wow, that's pretty sweet mate.
You seem to spend a lot of time on all of these and sharing them out for free which is very kind, are you wanting to get something approved from the band themselves before trying to release it?
Have you tried getting a job and working for a company that transcribes books like Hal Leonard etc. or approach them yourself to publish something of your own? I'm not sure how it all works, but you have a lot of dedication and time to this without any return it seems.
Yes, my #1 goal is still to release it with approval from the band. I was going to send stuff to Hal Leonard, Alfred, etc. but since I finally heard back from Jeff Plate, I've put that on hold. If for some reason the band doesn't want to be directly involved, then I guess I'll go to publishers or release it myself.
I have made some songs available for free for two reasons:
1: the song is not guitar-centric, thus not essential to the book project (One Child, Anymore, etc.)
2: the song is a good representation of the quality of my work (Blackjack Guillotine, Hard For Love, Drive, Doesn't Matter Anyway)
I don't think I'll be releasing any more free songs, but I do plan on doing more video playthroughs. Let me know if there are any specific songs/parts you'd like to see. Thanks so much for your feedback!
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I just finished transcribing the entire Edge of Thorns album! I got a response a few weeks ago from Jeff Plate, he's going to take a look at my transcriptions and get back to me. Fingers crossed!
Wow, that's pretty sweet mate.
You seem to spend a lot of time on all of these and sharing them out for free which is very kind, are you wanting to get something approved from the band themselves before trying to release it?
Have you tried getting a job and working for a company that transcribes books like Hal Leonard etc. or approach them yourself to publish something of your own? I'm not sure how it all works, but you have a lot of dedication and time to this without any return it seems.
Yes, my #1 goal is still to release it with approval from the band. I was going to send stuff to Hal Leonard, Alfred, etc. but since I finally heard back from Jeff Plate, I've put that on hold. If for some reason the band doesn't want to be directly involved, then I guess I'll go to publishers or release it myself.
I have made some songs available for free for two reasons:
1: the song is not guitar-centric, thus not essential to the book project (One Child, Anymore, etc.)
2: the song is a good representation of the quality of my work (Blackjack Guillotine, Hard For Love, Drive, Doesn't Matter Anyway)
I don't think I'll be releasing any more free songs, but I do plan on doing more video playthroughs. Let me know if there are any specific songs/parts you'd like to see. Thanks so much for your feedback!
That all makes sense mate, and I and all here I'm sure wish you well. If I was playing as much as I was 10 years ago I'd be more into these but don't play that much these days. What I've looked through from your tabs above and your videos are very accurate and vey well done mate. I hope you get somewhere with it all.
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I finished the complete Hall Of The Mountain King album today! Now I need to back and double check some things, and work on getting these transcriptions released.
I have been in touch with Jeff Plate, and he is interested in the project, though they are very busy with the upcoming TSO tour, so it may take a while. Here's what he said: "I think this is a great idea and would like to see something happen. But, keep in mind the mountain of work we have ahead of us for this upcoming tour, and also dealing with the losses we've endured. We will get to this when we can. Let me see what I can do." He also said he would forward the transcriptions to Chris Caffery.
Here's a list of all the completed songs from each album:
Sirens: Sirens, Rage, Twisted Little Sister, Living For The Night, Scream Murder
The Dungeons Are Calling (full album)
Power Of The Night (full album)
Fight For The Rock (full album)
Hall Of The Mountain King (full album)
Gutter Ballet (full album)
Streets (full album)
Edge Of Thorns (full album + Forever After and Shotgun Innocence)
Handful Of Rain (full album)
Ghost In The Ruins: Post Script
Dead Winter Dead (full album)
The Wake Of Magellan (full album)
Poets & Madmen (full album)
In the meantime, I plan on doing some more Savatage guitar videos, as well as working on ways to make this book special and unique. Thanks everybody!
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24 years ago, Criss Oliva's life was tragically cut short. This is my tribute to him.
https://youtu.be/StMraQk-YxA
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What a huge loss for the whole scene :'( :'( :'(
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One of the most tragic losses in metal history.
RIP Chris. :heart
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Taken way too soon. RIP.
On a related note, I can't help but still be bummed that Savatage doesn't fully reunite and go out on tour. I get it -- financially it wouldn't work in the U.S., and of course, TSO is mostly Savatage anyway. But, all that said, it is still a disappointment. Looking at that list above of Savatage records, DAMN. There are so many good songs that just don't get played any longer.
I mean, festivals...the festival scene could be an option if Jon wanted to do it. You play the big European ones, and then get the headliner slot at ProgPower. Boom. That's all. you record it for release, etc. I mean, obviously, I'm just a fan and being selfish with what I'd like him to do. But all those great songs...just not being played. It still irks me.
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Nice Evan - can't get better than an Oliva solo on an EVH guitar ;D
If I am still doing podcasts this time next year I will have to do a big 25 yr tribute.
Criss :hefdaddy
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His playing was just pure emotion and heart on every single damn thing he did. There was just nothing robotic about him and his playing and even the most trained and technically brilliant guitarist was still no match for the pure rawness, feel and natural ability this guy had. The guitar was just a part of him and he connected to it like not many have before.
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His playing was just pure emotion and heart on every single damn thing he did. There was just nothing robotic about him and his playing and even the most trained and technically brilliant guitarist was still no match for the pure rawness, feel and natural ability this guy had. The guitar was just a part of him and he connected to it like not many have before.
That's part of what made transcribing his solos a challenge. Compared to someone like JP, who has a very composed, pre-planned approach, it makes it difficult in a different kind of way. Criss' playing was more spontaneous, and he never played a solo exactly the same way twice.
Throughout the course of this project, it's been fun to chart his evolution as a player. From the Sirens/Dungeons era (extra challenging to transcribe due to production) where his lead playing was less refined, to the Hall/Gutter era where he really solidified his voice. He was constantly improving with each album, all the way up to Edge of Thorns. While not my favorite album, I think it's the peak of his playing, he was really unleashed on EoT. It's also been cool to pick up on his tendencies and patterns/chords he liked to use.
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His playing was just pure emotion and heart on every single damn thing he did. There was just nothing robotic about him and his playing and even the most trained and technically brilliant guitarist was still no match for the pure rawness, feel and natural ability this guy had. The guitar was just a part of him and he connected to it like not many have before.
Whenever someone bangs on (and it happens a lot on this forum) about how shred guitar, or fast lead runs, or weedly meedly, or noodling, (or whatever derisive term they want to use) has no soul and is just *shudder* robotic, I always think that they must have never heard Criss play. I can't believe anyone could listen to that and not hear the joy, sorrow, aggression, and inspiration that poured out at every moment. Hell, you could say that about his riffs even. The first time I heard 24 Hours Ago, I was floored at the ingenuity of the riff...tired of hearing the same ol' song, indeed.
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On a related note, I can't help but still be bummed that Savatage doesn't fully reunite and go out on tour. I get it -- financially it wouldn't work in the U.S., and of course, TSO is mostly Savatage anyway. But, all that said, it is still a disappointment. Looking at that list above of Savatage records, DAMN. There are so many good songs that just don't get played any longer.
I mean, festivals...the festival scene could be an option if Jon wanted to do it. You play the big European ones, and then get the headliner slot at ProgPower. Boom. That's all. you record it for release, etc. I mean, obviously, I'm just a fan and being selfish with what I'd like him to do. But all those great songs...just not being played. It still irks me.
I believe Jon Oliva just doesn't want that kind of life anymore. It was probably in this thread pages ago that I read an interview, it must have been of late 2015 'cause Lemmy was still alive, where he said "God bless Lemmy but I don't want to do like him, touring at 70", and he definitively doesn't care for small venues in front of 500 / 1000 people.
Sure, what you said makes sense, just do the big festival, but probably he's more oriented to the very special and very rare super concert, Wacken with TSO was one, maybe if he gets an offer to play in a super special venue like an old arena or something, he may go for it, but I don't think he cares anymore for even a big festivals short run.
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I just finished transcribing Chance. This and Morphine Child are the most elaborate transcriptions (as far as number of tracks) in the bunch.
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Finished transcribing Tonight He Grins Again. In addition to all the guitar parts, I also did the piano and strings.
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Two more songs done: You're Alive and Sammy And Tex.
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On a related note, I can't help but still be bummed that Savatage doesn't fully reunite and go out on tour. I get it -- financially it wouldn't work in the U.S., and of course, TSO is mostly Savatage anyway. But, all that said, it is still a disappointment. Looking at that list above of Savatage records, DAMN. There are so many good songs that just don't get played any longer.
I mean, festivals...the festival scene could be an option if Jon wanted to do it. You play the big European ones, and then get the headliner slot at ProgPower. Boom. That's all. you record it for release, etc. I mean, obviously, I'm just a fan and being selfish with what I'd like him to do. But all those great songs...just not being played. It still irks me.
I believe Jon Oliva just doesn't want that kind of life anymore. It was probably in this thread pages ago that I read an interview, it must have been of late 2015 'cause Lemmy was still alive, where he said "God bless Lemmy but I don't want to do like him, touring at 70", and he definitively doesn't care for small venues in front of 500 / 1000 people.
Sure, what you said makes sense, just do the big festival, but probably he's more oriented to the very special and very rare super concert, Wacken with TSO was one, maybe if he gets an offer to play in a super special venue like an old arena or something, he may go for it, but I don't think he cares anymore for even a big festivals short run.
I think it's a combination of Jon's dislike of heavy touring, and just the fact that with TSO being such a big commitment, it's a bit of a pain in the ass to get all the Savatage guys together and do something not-TSO. Paul once said that the real thing preventing Savatage from recording and touring was a lack of enough time in the year. Jon only writes and records for TSO; Caffery, Pitrelli, Middleton and Plate only record and tour with TSO. The only time all of them are together is in the studio. When TSO is out on tour, that is when Jon works on a lot of his solo stuff, and when Jon is writing for TSO is when the other guys do a lot of their side projects (which themselves are pretty rare; Chris Caffery had a 7 year break between solo albums due to his TSO commitments, and the other guys are not very active outside of TSO). Jon has said that in order for Savatage to do even one album/tour cycle would require shutting down TSO for a whole year which, obviously, none of them want.
Now, I do think we may continue to see Savatage becoming a bigger part of the TSO show. They have (slowly) been bringing more Savatage songs into the TSO setlists over the past several years, and with Zak now part of the TSO touring band, I imagine that trend will continue. Wacholz also mentioned a "Savatage tour" in 2018 in a recent interview: https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/community_feed/savatage_set_to_reunite_next_year.html (https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/community_feed/savatage_set_to_reunite_next_year.html). What's interesting is that he explicitly states that he will not be a part of it because they already have Jeff Plate, which implies that it would be the Dead Winter Dead/ Wake of Magellan line-up. I'm not sure what that could mean yet, if they are simply planing a TSO tour with a Savatage set (like the Wacken show) or if Jon and the Savatage guys are actualy going to take a break from TSO for a year to do a proper Savatage show (which is highly unlikely, IMO. If I were a betting man, I'd place my money on the first option.) Of course, Wacholz could just be wrong, since he hasn't been part of the Savatage family for over 20 years at this point. That being said, it goes without saying that I hope there is at least a kernel of truth to the possibility that there may be some sort of Savatage event planned for 2018.
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I agree as well! I had my chance to see Savatage, back in 2001 - it was a rather unlucky edition of a festival, indoors in June, so I didn't know them and I basically skipped 90% of their set preferring to stay outside.
I think it makes sense for them to have the Savatage legacy continuing through TSO, I remember always from an interview Jon saying something about one of the new singers of TSO being the new blood that would carry on the legacy once him and Paul ( :'( ) would be gone.
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Got a couple more songs transcribed: Agony And Ecstasy and Awaken.
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I put this medley together for the Wake of Magellan album:
https://youtu.be/Ge_g8TOd_x4
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I can't find a TSO thread so I'll just post this here.
It's the first Trans-Siberian Orchestra Christmas without Paul O'Neill.
:(
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3 more songs done for the tab book: Visions (from The Dungeons Are Calling), This Is The Time (1990), and Man In The Mirror!
Edit: the Poets & Madmen album is now complete!
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My medley for the Hall of the Mountain King album:
https://youtu.be/j3EWfY7Oz2c
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Great job!
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Here's my Poets & Madmen medley: https://youtu.be/xsjyWS2P84w
Also finished a few more transcriptions: Warriors, Washed Out, Temptation Revelation, Silk And Steel, and Memory
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Finished the Dead Winter Dead album last week, so here's my medley for it!
https://youtu.be/bpx5nQH_zSk
Also finished the Handful of Rain album this morning.
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Handful of Rain medley: https://youtu.be/OkAKjqQ51EU
Also, If I Go Away and Somewhere In time are complete.
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Streets album is now complete, here's the medley: https://youtu.be/BveYpDJbcG8
Also did some tone-matching with my Axe-Fx for this video, I think I got pretty close!
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I put this medley together for the Wake of Magellan album:
https://youtu.be/Ge_g8TOd_x4
You got me thinking.... can you imagine Wake if Chris was in the band? For me, it's hard to imagine that album being any better, but it makes you wonder. I mean, what if Dead Winter Dead or Wake got big, like Moving Pictures or something? ... and Savatage was the big draw that TSO is now. OK, now I'm dreaming!
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The bitter irony is that the song that made TSO big, Christmas Eve / Sarajevo, actually was on Dead Winter Dead.
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I listened to HOR for the first time in a long time, and honestly forgot how good it was. brilliant, underrated album.
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My Edge Of Thorns medley: https://youtu.be/eoCMzNV1KTc
And here's the updated list of all 131 completed songs for my transcription project:
Sirens: Sirens, Rage, Twisted Little Sister, Living For The Night, Scream Murder
The Dungeons Are Calling (full album)
Power Of The Night (full album)
Fight For The Rock (full album)
Hall Of The Mountain King (full album)
Gutter Ballet (full album)
Streets (full album)
Edge Of Thorns (full album + Forever After and Shotgun Innocence)
Handful Of Rain (full album)
Dead Winter Dead (full album)
Ghost In The Ruins: Post Script
The Wake Of Magellan (full album)
Poets & Madmen (full album)
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I listened to HOR for the first time in a long time, and honestly forgot how good it was. brilliant, underrated album.
Absolutely agree! It's also one of a kind in their discography, since essentially Jon Oliva composed it and played it all by himself. Whatever (for commercial purposes) the credits say, Jon Oliva is behind every instrument in the album, except vocals and guitar solos (maybe he didn't play all guitars, but I'm quite confident he played drums and bass also).
It was his catharsis album to deal with the loss of Criss, to keep him busy and not fall back again into cocaine. An album born of tragic times but with so many great gems on it, I'll raise one for probably the most "obscure" song of the album, Symmetry, always loved the verses and the bridge.
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I listened to HOR for the first time in a long time, and honestly forgot how good it was. brilliant, underrated album.
Absolutely agree! It's also one of a kind in their discography, since essentially Jon Oliva composed it and played it all by himself. Whatever (for commercial purposes) the credits say, Jon Oliva is behind every instrument in the album, except vocals and guitar solos (maybe he didn't play all guitars, but I'm quite confident he played drums and bass also).
It was his catharsis album to deal with the loss of Criss, to keep him busy and not fall back again into cocaine. An album born of tragic times but with so many great gems on it, I'll raise one for probably the most "obscure" song of the album, Symmetry, always loved the verses and the bridge.
Yes, Jon played everything except the solos handled by Alex.
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Finished transcribing the Gutter Ballet album over the weekend, which brings me to 8 complete albums and 109 total songs. Here's the medley I put together: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4AP_OGfUzM
Also, I saw TSO on Sunday and had a good talk with Jeff Plate about the project. He thinks it's a great idea and wants to help make it happen. Hopefully once the tour is over, we'll be in touch more often and can work to get the transcriptions released.
(https://scontent.fsnc1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/25395837_10156141812933699_5291755037168162604_n.jpg?oh=59f0e09cb8a23f153f40d4cf4160327f&oe=5AB23563)
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That's very cool! :tup
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Cool stuff man.
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Pretty cool!
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I finished 3 more songs from Fight For The Rock: the title track, The Edge Of Midnight, and She's Only Rock N' Roll. At this point, there aren't many songs in the catalog that I haven't transcribed, so I decided to do parts of each one, and that can at least help people get on the right track to learning them.
Holocaust (rhythms and fills done, no solo)
I Believe (rhythms and intro solo done)
On The Run (rhythms and main solo done)
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https://musicandartinterviews.blogspot.com/2018/01/alex-skolnick.html
very cool new interview with Alex Skolnick talking about 'Tage and Handful of Rain along with his other work.
I had no idea TSO had played CHANCE live, although I guess without Zak, I'm not sure how I'd feel hearing it. But I should check YouTube to find any footage.
edit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd8bYZjbjdc
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About TSO playing Savatage songs... they're doing more or less what Ritchie Blackmore is doing at this stage of his carrer - his own thing (Blackmore's Night), while playing here and there on the shows and on the albums some songs off Deep Purple and Rainbow.
This is an idea I really just had, how would you feel about a TSO album made entirely of Savatage covers? of course they would be mainly songs from Streets onwards (even though Gutter Ballet and When the Crowds are Gone are quite fitting for TSO), you can't have TSO perform By the Grace of the Witch or Devastation, but an album that pays homage to the band that spawned TSO would be a fitting tribute and a way to get TSO-only fans to properly acknowledge Savatage.
It annoys me to no end that Jon Oliva always struggled and lost a lot of money to keep Savatage alive, while the very same song that nobody cared for on Dead Winter Dead, Christmas Eve / Sarajevo, was presented as "Trans Siberian Orchestra" and suddenly made all the money. We'll never get Savatage as a touring and recording unit again (fingers crossed for some more shows) but an album of covers would be a nice way to say "Hey, remember where we all came from".
Furthermore, it could be another way to let the TSO singers be well known by Savatage fans. I remember reading a post Wacken interview with Jon Oliva and how he made a duet during Believe with a TSO guy, and everyone was like "No, that's your song, you have to sing it" and he insisted for the duet 'cause they needed to introduce the new blood, the ones who would keep the band alive when he and Paul (...... :-[ ) would no longer be there. An album of Savatage covers could make Sava-only fans and TSO-only fans more interested in each other.
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At this point I just wish Jon would make some sort of statement. He has been AWOL for awhile now it seems. I realize he has had some major life changes with people really close to him passing. I have been loving his solo career/JOP output and would love another record or at least some sort of statement that he is hanging it up.
His Facebook had a post from Jan 2017 mentioning big news coming. Then the next post is in July referencing Paul's passing and also saying he has been working on material. Nothing since then. I'm even having trouble tracking down any kind of recent interviews with him.
I also realize that he probably had to really step up with TSO.
Not complaining or anything, I get it if he has moved on in terms of his solo material. I just wish we could get a little update or something. This still sounds petty to me but my keyboard isn't allowing me to properly convey my thoughts. Hopefully, you get where I'm coming from.
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Concerning TSO doing something Savatage related; I still think there is a strong possibility of them doing a non-seasonal TSO tour with a Savatage set, like the Wacken show taken on the road (but probably with only one stage) like they talked about doing back in 2011, and they will probably continue to bring more Savatage songs into the sets on their tours regardless. As for doing a whole album of Savatage covers, remember the upcoming Gutter Ballet rock opera is going to have a lot of music borrowed from the 1989-1994 era of Savatage. I don't think they want to do an entire album of straight-up covers, though we will probably continue to get the occasional one-off covers like "Stay" on Letters from the Labyrinth or "Believe" on Night Castle.
As for Jon, I've been wondering about him too. Last time I checked the JOP facebook, the last post was about the Adrenaline Mob accident, though he did give this very brief interview last November https://parade.com/619487/nancyberk/trans-siberian-orchestras-jon-oliva-on-the-power-of-tso-and-the-2017-tour-that-lights-up-paul-oneills-vision/ (https://parade.com/619487/nancyberk/trans-siberian-orchestras-jon-oliva-on-the-power-of-tso-and-the-2017-tour-that-lights-up-paul-oneills-vision/). I know that after he did Raise the Curtain back in 2013 he said the next JOP album was going to be the heaviest thing he had ever done, but more recently he said that his next non-TSO project was going to be a double album the covered all aspects of his musical career. While he hasn't come out and said it, I do get the impression that JOP effectively ended with Matt's passing, and anything he does from this point on are going to be solo projects (although in many ways, JOP was a solo project). I've noticed that since 2011 Jon has stopped promoting JOP as "Savatage reborn" while the narrative that Savatage evolved into TSO has taken prominence. Not that I necessarily disagree with that point of view, but I think it is very telling of what Jon sees in the future of JOP vs TSO.
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Concerning TSO doing something Savatage related; I still think there is a strong possibility of them doing a non-seasonal TSO tour with a Savatage set, like the Wacken show taken on the road (but probably with only one stage) like they talked about doing back in 2011, and they will probably continue to bring more Savatage songs into the sets on their tours regardless. As for doing a whole album of Savatage covers, remember the upcoming Gutter Ballet rock opera is going to have a lot of music borrowed from the 1989-1994 era of Savatage. I don't think they want to do an entire album of straight-up covers, though we will probably continue to get the occasional one-off covers like "Stay" on Letters from the Labyrinth or "Believe" on Night Castle.
When it comes to TSO however, "Upcoming" has really to be taken with a grain of salt :D We're still waiting for the Romanov musical!
I thought too that implicitly Jon Oliva's Pain ended with Matt LaPorte's passing. Also Jon said he doesn't want to still sing Sirens when he's 70 so he's probably gonna be more a composer than a performer going forward. And I remember an interview when he said that at Wacken people could see how Savatage and TSO were essentially the same thing with the same players, adding that from his own perspective, Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan are more TSO albums with some Sava-sounding songs here and there, and that for him the band was done with Criss' passing.
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Concerning TSO doing something Savatage related; I still think there is a strong possibility of them doing a non-seasonal TSO tour with a Savatage set, like the Wacken show taken on the road (but probably with only one stage) like they talked about doing back in 2011, and they will probably continue to bring more Savatage songs into the sets on their tours regardless. As for doing a whole album of Savatage covers, remember the upcoming Gutter Ballet rock opera is going to have a lot of music borrowed from the 1989-1994 era of Savatage. I don't think they want to do an entire album of straight-up covers, though we will probably continue to get the occasional one-off covers like "Stay" on Letters from the Labyrinth or "Believe" on Night Castle.
When it comes to TSO however, "Upcoming" has really to be taken with a grain of salt :D We're still waiting for the Romanov musical!
I thought too that implicitly Jon Oliva's Pain ended with Matt LaPorte's passing. Also Jon said he doesn't want to still sing Sirens when he's 70 so he's probably gonna be more a composer than a performer going forward. And I remember an interview when he said that at Wacken people could see how Savatage and TSO were essentially the same thing with the same players, adding that from his own perspective, Dead Winter Dead and The Wake of Magellan are more TSO albums with some Sava-sounding songs here and there, and that for him the band was done with Criss' passing.
Yeah, even back when JOP was more active (2006-2010) Jon always said that Savatage never ended, it just "became another band" and that Savatage post-Criss was more TSO then Savatage. I really think the whole idea of JOP being Savatage reborn came from 1) the fact that so much of the JOP material was made up of unused Savatage demos ('Tage Mahal was essentialy what Jon intended as the follow-up to Poets and Madmen ), 2) the vibe of the band being more akin to old-school Savatage pre-1993, and 3) to placate all the fans who wanted to see Savatage continue and return to a heavier sound after 2002.
Personally, I think that outside of Savatage/TSO, Jon can call his side projects whatever he wants. There were already hints of the retro sound from Raise the Curtain apparent on Festival and Global Warning; Raise the Curtain just dropped much of the metal elements. I read in an interview where Jon said that he doesn't really view his work in terms of "Savatage","TSO", or "JOP"; it's all just one massive body of music he's written over the years. I can certainly understand that, especially considering the overlap of material from all his projects (both TSO and JOP have used Savatage music; Poets and Madmen had some unused material from Doctor Butcher; etc.)
And yes, I do take TSO's promises of upcoming material with a grain of salt. I believe we will hear Romanov and Gutter Ballet eventually, but it may take another decade or two... :P
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Savatage is one of my biggest regrets. They did come to Italy before being inactive, but I didn't know them, and they took part in a festival that, even though was held in June, was in an indoor venue, with two stages, being both overcrowded and overheated.
So what did I do when a band I didn't know, Savatage, was playing? what seemed the only logical solution, go outside and take some time off before going back inside for the headliners (Judas Priest). I should have stayed inside and be amazed by their songs and discover them in time to see them in 2002 (the festival was in 2001), but I became a fan only after that. Shame, I wish I would have discovered them a bit earlier.
Small consolation, I saw Circle II Circle (In a tour package with Savage Circus and a couple of other bands I forgot, in an empty small venue) and Jon Oliva for the Hall of the Mountain King 25th anniversary. He played of course the whole album, a lot of Savatage classics, started with Gutter Ballet and ended with Believe as an encore. To quote Meat Loaf, not a dry eye in the house on that song. There was a very quick meet n' greet after the show, just the time for a quick photo, and Jon recognized me from the front row, that was great, that he noticed my enthusiasm and me singing along to everything :coolio
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My experience with just missing out on Savatage is similar. I got into them shortly after Poets and Madmen had come out and had just missed their shows in the Chicago/Milwaukee area. I remember thinking that it probably wasn't that big of a deal, as I would just catch them on their next tour... :facepalm:
I have seen TSO many times live, with the highlight being their Beethoven's Last Night tour in 2012. In addition to playing my favorite TSO album from top to bottom, they included "Chance" in the encore. The true gem of my Savatage live experiences though probably has to be Jon Oliva's Storytellers Tour in 2013. He only played 6 shows on that tour, with one of them being in Joliet just outside of Chicago. It took my wife and I 3 hours of driving through a horrible blizzard to get there, but I can honestly say it was completely worth it. He played a wide selection of Savatage material from the 1983-1994 era of the band (including a rare performance of "Lady in Disguise" from Fight for the Rock ), as well as some JOP/solo songs. I really wish I had taken the opportunity to hang out and talk to him after the show, but unfortunately with the weather being so bad my wife and I were anxious to get home. Hopefully I will have another chance to see him again in a more casual, intimate setting, where I might be able to ask him a few questions after the show.
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UPDATE: I've finished transcribing the entire studio album discography! Total of 140 songs.
Bonus songs: The Message, This Is Where You Should Be, Jesus Saves (Original Version), Stay, Forever After, Shotgun Innocence, Post Script, Voyage
Also, a friend of Jon Oliva's has told Jon about my project and we're trying to figure out how to go about releasing the transcriptions. Something will happen eventually!
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Congrats! VERY cool. So much work!
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Congratulations!!!
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UPDATE: I've finished transcribing the entire studio album discography! Total of 134 songs. The only omission is the Sirens version of Out On The Streets. I decided to stick with the FFTR version of the song which has a more concise arrangement and tighter solo.
Bonus songs: Forever After, Shotgun Innocence, Post Script
Also, a friend of Jon Oliva's has told Jon about my project and we're trying to figure out how to go about releasing the transcriptions. Something will happen eventually!
Well done.
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Great job!
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Thanks everybody! I ended up finishing both versions of Out On The Streets, as well as some extra bonus songs. I've updated my previous post. When I started this project almost a year ago, I never would have thought I'd get this far. The more I plugged away, the more I realized how wrong the existing tabs were, and the band's catalog has never been done justice. I'm very proud of this accomplishment and can't wait to share the transcriptions with fans all over the world. There's no real timetable yet for their release, as I'm still waiting to hear more from Jon Oliva, but I can promise that they will see the light of day one way or another!
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Listening to The Wake of Magellan for the first time in ages, as that was always the one Zak Stevens-era 'Tage album I couldn't get into... and I'm kind of in awe of it right now. :lol It sounds nothing like how I remember it sounding to me a good five or six years ago!
Definitely my new favorite of the non-Criss 'Tage albums and it's probably also vying for that top spot against HotMK and EoT now.
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For anyone interested in my transcription project, please email me at maytropolees@comcast.net
Thanks!
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Here are my newest videos breaking down some classic Criss Oliva licks:
https://youtu.be/ZxNNmQGtHpk
https://youtu.be/xLRgtJUNWss
I also just finished transcribing the Doctor Butcher album, send me an email if you're interested!
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Today is a heavy anniversary for Savatage: 25 years (a quarter of century) ago, Criss Oliva was killed in a car accident.
Let's remember and praise such a great guitarist who left us such amazing music :hefdaddy
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I haven't listened to Savatage in ages. Now cranking this awesome live record.....
(https://www.metal-archives.com/images/9/4/8/5/9485.jpg)
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I've been in Savatage binge this past week.
Anybody have the Savatage boxset and willing to sell it?
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Today is a heavy anniversary for Savatage: 25 years (a quarter of century) ago, Criss Oliva was killed in a car accident.
Let's remember and praise such a great guitarist who left us such amazing music :hefdaddy
RIP Criss. One of the most brilliant and underrated guitarists in history.
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TSO tour kicked off last night...
Zak Stevens absolutely crushes this version of Chance. I'm so glad to see that they're playing this song during the Christmas tour. They did it on the BLN spring tour a handful of years ago, but I don't know if it had ever made it into the winter setlist before. :metal
As much as it sucks to have lost Paul O'Neill, maybe they'll now have more of an opportunity to sneak a few Savatage songs into the tours. At least the songs that work well and sound like TSO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZKgrsof-UY
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I never get to see Zak because he does the East. Sucks.
I love JSS and all, but...
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wished they would have played that last year when I saw them in Milwaukee. Oh well.
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TSO tour kicked off last night...
Zak Stevens absolutely crushes this version of Chance. I'm so glad to see that they're playing this song during the Christmas tour. They did it on the BLN spring tour a handful of years ago, but I don't know if it had ever made it into the winter setlist before. :metal
As much as it sucks to have lost Paul O'Neill, maybe they'll now have more of an opportunity to sneak a few Savatage songs into the tours. At least the songs that work well and sound like TSO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZKgrsof-UY
Since there is very little chance of a "Savatage" tour since it wouldn't be a money maker, I'd love to see a TSO tour billed as "Trans-Siberian Orchestra playing the music of Savatage"! Probably could do well in theaters and small arena's. :metal
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TSO winter tour are basically a US reality, and if they head over to Europe, it's mainly shows in Germany. So forgive me for being selfish but I want more albums, the Romanov thing and the Gutter Ballet stuff, Paul O' Neill's passing left a huge question mark on these projects but Jon Oliva is still around and I hope he brings these projects to light!
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If TSO would have used Zak as their main singer on the studio albums from the beginning, I would like the band way more than I do. I've seen the band a couple times live and the live shows blow the studio albums out of the water IMO. But if Zak would have been used in the studio, it would have made a big difference for me listening to the band.
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I haven't seen TSO in a couple of years. Both my wife and I huge fans, but for us the winter tour setlists have grown a bit stale. I still have yet to see Zak perform in TSO, and this would be a great opportunity to do so. Since I'll see them in Chicago or Milwaukee, it's a bit of a crap-shoot as to which version of TSO we get, but if I miss out on Zak... well I think Russell Allen is touring with TSO West, and that man never disappoints live.
Personally, the Beethoven's Last Night show I saw in 2012 was the highlight of my TSO experiences. Not only is that my favorite album by them, but hearing them play "Chance" in the encore was a real treat. It's a shame Zak wasn't touring with them at the time, but seeing Caffery, Pitrelli, Middleton and Plate all on stage together playing a Savatage classic is still the closest I have seen to seeing the actual band live.
Jeff Plate gave an interview recently and talked a bit about why things around Savatage have stayed quiet since Wacken 2015. You can read more here: https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/trans-siberian-orchestra-drummer-says-he-would-really-love-to-see-savatage-reunite/ (https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/trans-siberian-orchestra-drummer-says-he-would-really-love-to-see-savatage-reunite/) but it is pretty much what I thought it would be; there was talk of doing something Savatage related after the 2015 TSO winter tour but Jon's stroke in 2016 and Paul's passing in 2017 basically put that on hold. That being said, I would still give anything to see TSO do a non-Christmas Savatage tour with all six members of the Dead Winter Dead/Wake of Magellan lineup. There are just so many great songs in the Savatage catalog that could be used to spice up TSO setlists and through all the Savatage fans a bone or two.
As for Romanov, Gutter Ballet II and Running with the Passion of the Fairytale Moon , I'm sure those albums will see the light of day. As I understand it, they were fully written well before Paul's death, and all were at various stages of recording. It's just a matter of the band finding the time between tours to finish them up in the studio and get them released. When that will happen, I have no idea; it's already been 3 years since Letters from the Labyrinth, but I'm sure they'll complete those records, if for no other reason then the fact Paul would have wanted them to.
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a TSO plays 'Tage show would be awesome, I wonder though if it would be a 1-off.
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I haven't seen TSO in a couple of years. Both my wife and I huge fans, but for us the winter tour setlists have grown a bit stale. I still have yet to see Zak perform in TSO, and this would be a great opportunity to do so. Since I'll see them in Chicago or Milwaukee, it's a bit of a crap-shoot as to which version of TSO we get, but if I miss out on Zak... well I think Russell Allen is touring with TSO West, and that man never disappoints live.
Chicago and Milwaukee might both get TSO West. The same days of each show, the other touring group is in Cleveland or Pittsburgh.
Both Zak and Russell are with TSO East. Jeff Scott Soto is usually with the West group. I think Mats Leven (ex-Candlemass) is with the West group as well.
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Savatage is just one of many topics discussed, but I recently did an interview for a friend's website: Interview link (https://mega-depth.com/i-always-want-everything-i-do-to-be-as-accurate-as-humanly-possible-to-how-the-musicians-actually-perform-it-an-interview-with-evan-bradley/) We discussed my Savatage guitar transcription project, some of my other projects, guitar playing, etc. Hope you guys enjoy it!
He also wrote an article specifically on Savatage & TSO a while back: Savatage article (https://mega-depth.com/savatage-and-trans-siberian-orchestra-a-tribute-to-criss-oliva-and-paul-oneill/)
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not new, but this is a very cool live acoustic version of "Chance" from Zak's band Circle II Circle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEl8Lq8dmeE
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Killer cover of Chance: https://youtu.be/82wrBg39TSs
Joseph Michael (Witherfall, Sanctuary), Van Williams (Nevermore), Joey Conception (Sanctuary) and more!
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^nice!
also there was a Reaction to Chance on Youtube the other day from the Enoma channel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDrOoFbEHYI&t=1s
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Zak's killing it with his new band, Archon Angel, on 70,000 Tons of Metal right now. I'm so glad to see them play a lot of these Savatage songs:
Hall of the Mountain King: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDqtNvMFO4I
Taunting Cobras: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmBwts4NQj0
Edge of Thorns: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fk2fJO_pks
Damien: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_X5pHMcrT0
I'd read that they at least rehearsed Power of the Night as well. I really hope to see video of that tune show up soon! :metal
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I don't see the point of him singing Jon Oliva's songs, but who cares, the more the Savatage name gets kept around and alive for younger fans, the better :metal
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Zak did sing some of Jon's songs when he was in Savatage - he sang Hall of the Mountain King on Japan Live '94. Jon's not out there playing these songs anymore with his own band, so I'm glad that these guys are.
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Had no idea Zak had a new album coming out. Adding to my list to pickup. Thanks!
Wish Jon would come out of hiding and tell us something. I know he was planning on more music until his guitarist died along with Paul's death. Would at least like to hear that he is doing well, if nothing else.
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Doing well is the most important part, since he suffered a mild stroke from which I understand he recovered. I fear that this ended his touring days, since he was on record anyway saying that he was tired of concerts and I remember a passage where he said "I don't want to do like Lemmy and tour until I'm 70" (this was shortly before he passed away). As far as new music, I remember too reading somewhere sometime he was working on new stuff, let's hope we'll hear something, either from himself or through TSO!
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Fucking hell, he had a stroke. :-\
I'm looking forward to this new album.
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Doing well is the most important part, since he suffered a mild stroke from which I understand he recovered. I fear that this ended his touring days, since he was on record anyway saying that he was tired of concerts and I remember a passage where he said "I don't want to do like Lemmy and tour until I'm 70" (this was shortly before he passed away). As far as new music, I remember too reading somewhere sometime he was working on new stuff, let's hope we'll hear something, either from himself or through TSO!
Been on a Savatage binge again lately, so I figured I'd check in this thread to see if there'd be any updates... had NOT heard about this. God, that sucks to hear. All things considered, I agree, that stroke probably cemented any chance of ever catching Jon live again, or 'Tage at all for that matter. Though I suppose the latter was already a long shot now with Paul having been dead for a few years now.
I'm glad to hear that Zak is at least keeping things going with his new band and representing both eras of 'Tage live. Or at least, he was before the pandemic happened. :lol Listening to a song from the new band now, I dig it. :metal
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The Savatage FB posted a message like a week or two ago.
"Hey Everyone, it's been a while, we have some exciting things we are putting together. Got any cool memories laying around? Setlists? Pictures from tours?!"
So not sure what they will be releasing or doing. Hope is not a reissue campaign. Would love to see the an official release from the Wacken Festival both video and audio.
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The Savatage FB posted a message like a week or two ago.
"Hey Everyone, it's been a while, we have some exciting things we are putting together. Got any cool memories laying around? Setlists? Pictures from tours?!"
So not sure what they will be releasing or doing. Hope is not a reissue campaign. Would love to see the an official release from the Wacken Festival both video and audio.
That would be fantastic. At this point, I doubt we'll ever see a new Savatage album, but it'd certainly be great for them to release the reunion show finally. Plus it's high time that Ghost in the Ruins, Live Japan '94 and Poets & Madmen be released on iTunes. Baffles my mind that none of those releases are on there for purchase!
Also a side note... after listening to Handful of Rain a lot lately, I found myself curious about Alex Skolnick's experiences working on the album and his time in the band and why he didn't stick around longer despite being apparently a huge fan of Criss and the band. And in at least one interview I found, Alex mentioned that basically Jon and Paul had written most/all of Dead Winter Dead behind-the-scenes already after touring for Handful and were just waiting for him to come in again to do solos, leading Alex to decide to move on as he'd rather have a voice contributing to the music.
Obviously it all is what it is and the Caffery/Pitrelli era is incredible too... but now I can't help but wonder what 'Tage could have done next after Handful if Jon and Paul had let Alex into their circle for the songwriting? It definitely would've been drastically different from DWD/Wake/P&M, but I think it could've been something special in its own right. Probably would've resulted in something more similar overall to the sound found on Edge and Handful (blues and jazz-influenced, more guitar driven). Either way, we'll never know now. :lol
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I thought I read or heard an interview with Alex Skolnick not that long ago about his experience with Savatage. If I find it, I'll have to pass a link along.
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Concerning Alex not staying in Savatage it was probably this interview that Soundscape was talking about: https://www.goldminemag.com/features/jazz-alex-skolnick-true-identity (https://www.goldminemag.com/features/jazz-alex-skolnick-true-identity)
(Bolded emphasis mine)
Goldmine: After Testament you recorded with Savatage and later the band that evolved from it, Trans-Siberian Orchestra (TSO). What can you tell us about those experiences?
Skolnick: Savatage was a very bittersweet situation. On the one hand I got to do an album with a band that I liked in high school. The flipside is that the gig came about because of a tragedy: Savatage guitarist Criss Oliva had passed away in 1993. That was around the time that I had left my band, Testament, because things hadn’t been working out, and I found playing with Savatage appealing. It was like, ‘Hey, why not?’ Then again, I knew I was heading in a different direction from the band, but I just didn’t know where. For some reason, joining Savatage just didn’t feel right. I’m not sure why that is. It’s a little like our conversation earlier -- who knows why things happen? It wasn’t one particular thing. Maybe I felt I needed to … be one of the main creative voices in the band. If I had stayed with Savatage I wouldn’t have been.
And that fits in generally with everything I've ever read or heard about Alex's time in Savatage. He loved the band and enjoyed playing with them, but he was also very much a creative leader type of personality and it was clear that Savatage was Jon and Paul's baby. Ultimately, by the time they got to Poets and Madmen it seemed that Caffery had become the de-facto third member of the creative team, but my understanding is that he was very much third behind Jon and Paul, and there were rumors that a lot of his contributions for the album were rejected. While I'm sure the loss of Criss would have have made it difficult for another guitarist to ever be accepted as an equal songwriter with Jon and Paul in any case, I also think the general stylistic evolution of Savatage and the success the band achieved with TSO in the States and DWD/TWOM overseas may have made Jon and Paul a bit reluctant to return to a more metal style of music, and the fact that even in Europe P&M didn't receive the same praise as DWD/TWOM certainly didn't help matters much.
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Ironically on plenty of recent Testament material Alex has contributed little more than solos. I would've liked him to stay around a bit longer too.
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A rare update in the Savatage thread immediately means a return of the Dark Master! :metal
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Concerning Alex not staying in Savatage it was probably this interview that Soundscape was talking about: https://www.goldminemag.com/features/jazz-alex-skolnick-true-identity (https://www.goldminemag.com/features/jazz-alex-skolnick-true-identity)
(Bolded emphasis mine)
Goldmine: After Testament you recorded with Savatage and later the band that evolved from it, Trans-Siberian Orchestra (TSO). What can you tell us about those experiences?
Skolnick: Savatage was a very bittersweet situation. On the one hand I got to do an album with a band that I liked in high school. The flipside is that the gig came about because of a tragedy: Savatage guitarist Criss Oliva had passed away in 1993. That was around the time that I had left my band, Testament, because things hadn’t been working out, and I found playing with Savatage appealing. It was like, ‘Hey, why not?’ Then again, I knew I was heading in a different direction from the band, but I just didn’t know where. For some reason, joining Savatage just didn’t feel right. I’m not sure why that is. It’s a little like our conversation earlier -- who knows why things happen? It wasn’t one particular thing. Maybe I felt I needed to … be one of the main creative voices in the band. If I had stayed with Savatage I wouldn’t have been.
And that fits in generally with everything I've ever read or heard about Alex's time in Savatage. He loved the band and enjoyed playing with them, but he was also very much a creative leader type of personality and it was clear that Savatage was Jon and Paul's baby. Ultimately, by the time they got to Poets and Madmen it seemed that Caffery had become the de-facto third member of the creative team, but my understanding is that he was very much third behind Jon and Paul, and there were rumors that a lot of his contributions for the album were rejected. While I'm sure the loss of Criss would have have made it difficult for another guitarist to ever be accepted as an equal songwriter with Jon and Paul in any case, I also think the general stylistic evolution of Savatage and the success the band achieved with TSO in the States and DWD/TWOM overseas may have made Jon and Paul a bit reluctant to return to a more metal style of music, and the fact that even in Europe P&M didn't receive the same praise as DWD/TWOM certainly didn't help matters much.
Mhmm! I can't speak for Soundscape, but aside from this interview, I actually found another recent-ish interview with Alex where he went into wayyyyyy more detail about his time with Savatage and Trans Siberian Orchestra and his reason for leaving 'Tage after Handful of Rain.
DR: After the tour was over, you moved on from Savatage. Was there some consideration to staying? Was there an offer to stay in the band?
AS: I had a lot of things that I wanted to work on as an artist and staying in that situation just would not have been honest. I was actually open to it for a little bit but then it became clear that I was not going to be part of the creative process. During the tour, I really bonded with Jon. He turned me on to these Deep Purple records that I hadn't been aware of and so many other classic rock records. I started brainstorming ideas about combining some of these classic rock influences and some of what influenced me growing up and I had some ideas about where we could go with the next Savatage record. But then one day I get a phone call from Paul O'Neill; "Great News! Jon and I got inspired and wrote the whole record. It's done. We just need you to come down and record it." He then read me the whole long Dead Winter Dead narrative over the phone with Sarajevo and a gargoyle [Laughs] - I loved Paul, but - I could tell that they were going to do to some great things with that record but this all just wasn't for me, so I respectfully declined.
http://www.musicandartinterviews.com/2018/01/alex-skolnick.html
It's a very interesting and extensive interview, for anyone interested in checking out the whole thing! :metal
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I've always found it amazingly impressive that Jon did everything on HOF bar vocals and solos. What a genius.
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I've always found it amazingly impressive that Jon did everything on HOF bar vocals and solos. What a genius.
No doubt. I really miss Jon. I love all of the JOP records and his solo record. Hoping that we get at least one last hurrah out of him outside of TSO, but I also understand that life has been rough for him the last few years.
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I've always found it amazingly impressive that Jon did everything on HOF bar vocals and solos. What a genius.
No doubt. I really miss Jon. I love all of the JOP records and his solo record. Hoping that we get at least one last hurrah out of him outside of TSO, but I also understand that life has been rough for him the last few years.
I thought he was trying to get himself un better shape. I haven't kept up with where he is at though.
I really like all the JOP albums too. Global Warning is excellent.
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Just looked at the JOP Facebook page and Chris Kinder posted an update last month. Didn't really have much info other than he says Jon is working on new material, but that's about it.
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Just looked at the JOP Facebook page and Chris Kinder posted an update last month. Didn't really have much info other than he says Jon is working on new material, but that's about it.
:metal
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If there is one band that I truly miss in this world, it's this one.
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If there is one band that I truly miss in this world, it's this one.
So true.
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If there is one band that I truly miss in this world, it's this one.
So true.
Amen!
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Yeah, I agree.
Every time I see this thread bumped I mourn for all the potential lost.
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If there is one band that I truly miss in this world, it's this one.
So true.
Amen!
Yeah, I agree.
Every time I see this thread bumped I mourn for all the potential lost.
I couldn't agree more. It's heartbreaking. Breaks my heart that the band isn't around anymore really. I'm actually listening to an old expansive "rockumentary" radio interview with Jon from 2007 about the history of Savatage and it's really interesting to hear his perspective on the various periods of the band's "life."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSvlmVoHBfM
And while I think most of us would agree already, but the interview really reminded me just how much Jon Oliva truly is Savatage, more than any of the other members. And ironically Jon is quite humble about the matter! :lol
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And while I think most of us would agree already, but the interview really reminded me just how much Jon Oliva truly is Savatage, more than any of the other members. And ironically Jon is quite humble about the matter! :lol
Yeah, I'm grateful that O'Neill came into his life and influenced him, but Jon (and Criss) were always Savatage to me. It always rubbed me the wrong way about how much O'Neill wanted to take credit for Jon's work.
Yeah, Jon is humble.
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Yeah, I agree.
Every time I see this thread bumped I mourn for all the potential lost.
Every time I see this thread bumped I think "Oh no, who died...".
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To be honest, in all the interviews I've seen or read, I don't recall Paul trying to take a lot of credit for Jon's work. If anything, it seems that Jon is all too willing to give credit to Paul for making Savatage as great as it was, while Paul never stops praising Jon's genius and talents. This is really apparent in the video interviews they did for the Wacken 2015 show, where they are constantly complimenting each other and talking about how the other guy is the true mastermind behind Savatage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCXxnUOfcSo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCXxnUOfcSo)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzURoR13oYs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzURoR13oYs)
Ultimately, I think that they complimented each other perfectly and each brought something to Savatage that the other lacked. Jon is an immensely talented multi-instrumentalist and one of the most brilliant songwriters in the history of rock, but I don't think he ever had a good idea for the "big picture" of how a Savatage album should sound. If you listen to the pre-O'Neill records or the JOP records (which are basically Savatage albums in all but name), it's clear that Jon can write great songs as easily a bodily function but the records from the O'Neill-era clearly have a much more cohesive and well thought-out structure, not to mention amazing, if occasionally a bit obtuse, storylines (and, tellingly, Jon never attempted a rock opera without Paul). By contrast Paul was a guy just bursting with awesome creative ideas and has the vision to know how to bring those dreams into reality, but it seems like he needed someone else with the musical and compositional talent to make it happen.
Really, I think one of the greatest gifts the metal gods ever granted us was getting those two minds together to make some of the best albums that have ever been released. Were it not for the untimely passing of Criss, we can only imagine how far Savatage may have gone with such genius at the helm.
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Really, I think one of the greatest gifts the metal gods ever granted us was getting those two minds together to make some of the best albums that have ever been released. Were it not for the untimely passing of Criss, we can only imagine how far Savatage may have gone with such genius at the helm.
Indeed, the band had so much potential and it could have been one of the giants of the genre by now. If I recall correctly, Jon was going to come back eventually to the band, and they would have had two singers, Criss obviously would have been one of the leading forces of the band.
Who knows if the more conceptual albums (Dead Winter and Magellan) would have been made anyway, which in turn would have put a question mark upon Trans Siberian Orchestra - usually bands die for lack of success, it's sad irony that the success Savatage deserved came in the form of a song released with the same name, but disguised under another band, and that other band grew so much that it made no longer sense for the Savatage guys to sweat it out in small clubs (at least in the USA) while they could make millions with TSO instead.....
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https://bravewords.com/news/jon-oliva-on-possibility-of-a-new-savatage-album-i-ve-been-writing-savatage-material-since-2003-all-i-can-say-is-it-s-very-possible?fbclid=IwAR1ZlI-JsMAOLDO6YVWd-_KpkUerqwWVFEORg6IRWr5HEGTz2rODLhBA-Uk
Oliva: "I’ve been very busy. We are working on the Romanov project. It’s very special to me because it’s the first thing that Paul O’Neill ever worked on outside of Savatage. We are making progress. It’s not an easy project because there are a lot of parts and a lot of great music. I have to be very meticulous. I’m being very bitchy about it because I want it to be perfect. Since the the Wacken show in 2015, Chris Caffery, Al Pitrelli, and myself have been trading song ideas for a possible Savatage thing. I’ve been writing Savatage material since 2003. I could do a quadruple double album if I wanted to. We are trading off things and looking at it. We are also looking at a Savatage live thing from Cologne Germany in 1997. We are putting it together for a livestream. I’ve been working on that. I had Al come down to Florida and we beefed it up just a little bit, mixed it. I think the fans will love it. If this Savatage album happens, we’ll make an official announcement. We have been working together, because we are all bored because of the pandemic. There’s nothing to do! So we are trading ideas through e-mail and over the phone. We’ll see what happens....I know I would love to do a Savatage album. Paul and I were talking about it before he died. We had a lot of meetings about it. All I can say is it’s very possible."
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A new Savatage album would be just too epic. I hope it happens.
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Anything from Jon is welcome, be it a JOP album or Savatage. Heck, I loved his solo album. Been way too long without music from the man. Glad to see that he is active. That is encouraging.
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I feel like every couple of years we get teased about a new Savatage album.
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I feel like every couple of years we get teased about a new Savatage album.
We do.
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Suckahs! ;D
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Suckahs! ;D
It gets me everytime though. :'(
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Lockdown and the resultant inability of TSO to tour might've been the key to making it happen finally.
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Lockdown and the resultant inability of TSO to tour might've been the key to making it happen finally.
Agree. If not, then I don't think it will ever happen.
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I'd love a quadruple album.
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I'm not holding my breath for this, not after all the speculation we've had over the last, what, 20 years?
I'll believe it when I'm ripping the CD to my iPhone
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Would love at least a proper recording of the Wacken live set.
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Put Poets and Madmen on in a the car. Holy shit, I almost forgot how amazing this album is.
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That's a masterpiece. A rare 5-star album.
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That's a masterpiece. A rare 5-star album.
It's just simply incredible.
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bump.
from a Fan Group on FB
https://www.facebook.com/jamie.wolansky/videos/5478365765569574/
*BRAND NEW UPDATE !!
Savatage album update and behind the scenes insight from Chris Caffery. It’s real folks, the hype is real ! The fans demand made it happen , Jon has been updating the group and he sounds as every bit as hyped about it as we all are by the sounds of all this🤘.
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I'm glad, but Savatage's history has taught us that "I'll believe it when I see it" is the best course of action.
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If I understand that right, the "only" thing that has happended is that Jon has informed the rest of the band that there might be a new album? No talk of writing sessions, demos, booked studio time, who will play on the record etc.?
It's still better than nothing but like MirrorMask, I believe it when I hold it in my hands. ;)
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Yeah, let's see it then I'll believe it.
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This would AWESOME news if they record/release a new album before they retire or something.
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Some sort of Savatage update
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/jon-oliva-has-enough-material-for-three-new-savatage-albums/
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Some sort of Savatage update
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/jon-oliva-has-enough-material-for-three-new-savatage-albums/
Very nice. Still not moving from my "I'll believe it when I see it" camp.
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They've been talking about "big surprises" since Savatage and TSO played at Wacken, which was nearly 6 years ago. TSO has been working on Romanov for at least 10 years and it has yet to come out.
I love Jon, I love that he's writing music for Savatage, but these guys just don't put out studio material in a timely manner at all.
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It’s tough to blame them. There’s simply no profit in releasing music anymore. If you love to create music you can create it for your own enjoyment. But the push to invest money for some thing that you will never see a return on… meh
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It’s tough to blame them. There’s simply no profit in releasing music anymore. If you love to create music you can create it for your own enjoyment. But the push to invest money for some thing that you will never see a return on… meh
I'm surprised they still want to use the record model. Just release 10 songs though Bandcamp and recoup as much money as you can by doing it yourself. Pretty sure the Sava/TSO fans will buy the songs.
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Well, some Savatage news is always good. New merch and vinyl reissues very soon.
https://www.facebook.com/savatage/
Savatage fans! If you haven't already seen we have a new website for you to check out at www.savatage.com - We have a soon to be launched all new webstore with cool new merch and are re-releasing all of the Savatage catalog on vinyl in Europe with limited edition imports being available to our US fans here via our website
First on the release schedule is a 10" Single for The Hourglass: If you want to see how amazing this turned out- click here: https://youtu.be/aEoIssHgpNc
The 10“ will be strictly limited to 2000 numbered copies worldwide. To get into second gear, a vinyl re-release of Savatage’s debut album Sirens (1983) will see the light of day August 20, and so is the follow up album The Dungeons Are Calling (1984). Both albums will be available on 180g black vinyl and limited edition coloured vinyl, all housed in beautiful gatefold jackets. The coloured vinyl variant of The Dungeons Are Calling will come with an exclusive 7” replica of the band’s 7“ single City Beneath The Surface.
US available via: www.savatage.com (We will post when pre-order is live)
Europe Pre-order:
Sirens: https://savatage.lnk.to/Sirens
The Dungeons Are Calling: https://savatage.lnk.to/dungeonscalling
Shipping begins in August... We can't wait for you to see all these amazing records!
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a Handful of Rain Vinyl I would grab in a second.
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here's a new documentary made on YouTube some may enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgusUMItWHA
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here's a new documentary made on YouTube some may enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgusUMItWHA
:metal
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here's a new documentary made on YouTube some may enjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgusUMItWHA
That come up in my feed. I'll watch that on the weekend.
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Jon Oliva has been arrested on DUI and cocaine possession charges. I know the man has had his substance abuse issues over the years but I hope the arrest is a big wake up call for him. He's in his 60s now this kind of stuff is even more dangerous now for his heart.
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DUI coming from him, out of all people, is really hurtful.... as you said, let's hope it's a big wake up call for him, even behind the scenes we need him in this world.
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Jon Oliva has been arrested on DUI and cocaine possession charges. I know the man has had his substance abuse issues over the years but I hope the arrest is a big wake up call for him. He's in his 60s now this kind of stuff is even more dangerous now for his heart.
Fuck.
How is he still alive?
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The dungeons are calling... :|
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Very detailed account of what happened. Like others have said, a DUI from him of all people, is just sad.
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/savatage-legend-jon-oliva-arrested-for-dui-cocaine-possession/
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"The nurses at the hospital listened.as Mr. Oliva yelled at his wife on the phone for cocaine being in his car."
:lol that would have been the hardest part of the whole thing, telling the wife!
.138 alcohol level, Jesus!
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(https://cdn.drawception.com/images/panels/2012/5-28/bw8mqyTEfN-2.png)
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Fuck I knew something like that was coming. :lol
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It's just so sad to see him like this.
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This exact scenario killed my best friend through grade school.
And there's been a time or two in my life where I've suddenly found myself in the situation where someone is barreling at me from the wrong lane. It's fucking scary.
This guy should have his licensed revoked for good.
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...and to think that 30 (!!) years ago today, Streets was released...
(https://img.discogs.com/sDwd2GHAdKnFd179HMqHN7kaOdg=/fit-in/600x590/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2189361-1437682305-2764.jpeg.jpg)
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It’s sad.
Jon has been through it no doubt and these events are horrible and wrong but I’m not going to pile on the guy. Just by the police report he seemed to know he messed up big time. Thankfully nobody else was affected by his choices.
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It’s sad.
Jon has been through it no doubt and these events are horrible and wrong but I’m not going to pile on the guy. Just by the police report he seemed to know he messed up big time. Thankfully nobody else was affected by his choices.
For the situation he seemed to be very compliant which is something at least.
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Oh, man that sucks :sad:
I've heard from Chris Caffery (on videos such as his participations in Sea Of Tranquility) that him and Jon were definetely working on some new Savatage music, and I was really happy.
Plus, Jon might have his issues, but he is a really nice guy (met and talked to him briefly in a metal bar here in Brazil when they toured for the last time here - early 2000's).
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Been listening to Streets all day today in Spotify.. :metal
Tomorrow Streets and Gutter are being released in vinyl. I think I will get the Streets vinyl. One of those albums that I just don't skip any track at all.
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Been listening to Streets all day today in Spotify.. :metal
Tomorrow Streets and Gutter are being released in vinyl. I think I will get the Streets vinyl. One of those albums that I just don't skip any track at all.
Both albums made my top 50 and Streets is just one of the greatest concept albums of all time. Incredible band.
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Chris Caffery just shared a "Dungeons are calling" part 2/song he wrote on his facebook (Should be a public post even if you don't have FB) - https://www.facebook.com/ChrisCafferyMusic
Apparently Jon asked him for heavy riffs for possible Savatage music but he's adamant they aren't actively working on anything lol. I would totally take another Savatage album with Chris, Jon and others writing again.
The Dungeons are Calling...Again!
I spent the start of this day late last night cleaning up some spots on my computer drives. I’m just trying to organize my writing into folders.
As mentioned in the video last year I had a request by the Mountain King Jon Oliva to write some heavy riffs. I kinda took it a step further. I wrote and recorded this song. It is a part two of the old Savatage classic “The Dungeons are calling”.
It’s kinda written about how the Savatage Legions have been calling for us to do something again. Also in this case Oliva was calling! 🤣😎⛰👑😈
I mentioned this idea in some recent interviews and of course some opinionated internet trolls had to jump on it. “I hate part two of songs”. You know the type. The ones that hate food before they try it. Then could still like it after trying it but since they said they hated it will always hate it! 🤪🤣🤭🤯
Its pretty cool though...I used a similar format but added some background vocals and twists and turns. I had to put the Oliva screech on the demo! Jon always sez I sound like his mini me. I am like yes...I’m like Jon in every way, just 1/8th his size! 🤣🤭
Here’s my lyrics for the first verse, pre chorus and chorus. Not really sure what will ever happen with this tune but many people have asked to hear it or little teases of what I’ve written for Savatage. So don’t post and say “Chris Caffery shares new Savatage song” because it’s not! As of now it’s just an idea I wrote for Oliva to hear and I’m sharing it with you! 😎🤘🏼A WRITING DEMO
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That's heavy as hell! :metal I love the idea of them working on some old-school sounding songs like this again, as opposed to the Zak / pre-TSO era of Savatage.
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IIRC, Chris has also said he has shared riffs and songs with Al Pitrelli as well besides Jon. I really hope we can get one more album out of them.
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That was familiar but a kick ass and welcome piece of music. I'd happily take another album like this.
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I'm not too familiar with the pre-Gutter Ballet material but this thread bumped inspired me to listen to Hall of the Mountain King and it is so kickass. Going to check the previous albums out.
Also have to say that tribute live album 'Ghost in the Ruins' with old tracks played by Criss are seriously kick ass. One thing I do have to say is I absolutely love the guitar riff tones from that Savatage period of Hall to Streets. It's so uniquely Savatage, you know it's them when you hear it.
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I'm not too familiar with the pre-Gutter Ballet material but this thread bumped inspired me to listen to Hall of the Mountain King and it is so kickass. Going to check the previous albums out.
Also have to say that tribute live album 'Ghost in the Ruins' with old tracks played by Criss are seriously kick ass. One thing I do have to say is I absolutely love the guitar riff tones from that Savatage period of Hall to Streets. It's so uniquely Savatage, you know it's them when you hear it.
Hall of the Mountain King is so :metal :metal :metal
And I love that live album with Criss Oliva as well.
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I'm not too familiar with the pre-Gutter Ballet material but this thread bumped inspired me to listen to Hall of the Mountain King and it is so kickass. Going to check the previous albums out.
Also have to say that tribute live album 'Ghost in the Ruins' with old tracks played by Criss are seriously kick ass. One thing I do have to say is I absolutely love the guitar riff tones from that Savatage period of Hall to Streets. It's so uniquely Savatage, you know it's them when you hear it.
Love that live album. Criss Oliva was such a fantastic player. Agreed on the tone - although I actually think, purely in terms of guitar work, the Edge of Thorns album was his absolute peak.
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I'm not too familiar with the pre-Gutter Ballet material but this thread bumped inspired me to listen to Hall of the Mountain King and it is so kickass. Going to check the previous albums out.
Also have to say that tribute live album 'Ghost in the Ruins' with old tracks played by Criss are seriously kick ass. One thing I do have to say is I absolutely love the guitar riff tones from that Savatage period of Hall to Streets. It's so uniquely Savatage, you know it's them when you hear it.
Love that live album. Criss Oliva was such a fantastic player. Agreed on the tone - although I actually think, purely in terms of guitar work, the Edge of Thorns album was his absolute peak.
I'll agree with this. That has some of the most monumental lead playing ever in my opinion. The solos of the title track, He Carves His Stone, Degrees of Sanity, Miles Away and Follow Me are just out of this world.
It's funny, learning to play the guitar, Criss was one of my biggest influences and it's funny that his two main influences which is so apparent now listening to him I never really got into as guitarists until just lately. Criss was a perfect mix of Michael Schenker and Eddie Van Halen. So I guess Criss was my Michael Schenker or Eddie for others.
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Criss was a riff making machine. I may be partial because I knew him in the Florida scene before Savatage took off, but he's easily in my top 10 of all time.
"Edge of Thorns" album his peak? Hmmm. I might have to think that one over, but I certainly can't say I'd disagree right now. His guitar work in "Follow Me" is just so fucking emotive.
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You knew him? Jesus, I class you a celebrity
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I'm not too familiar with the pre-Gutter Ballet material but this thread bumped inspired me to listen to Hall of the Mountain King and it is so kickass. Going to check the previous albums out.
Also have to say that tribute live album 'Ghost in the Ruins' with old tracks played by Criss are seriously kick ass. One thing I do have to say is I absolutely love the guitar riff tones from that Savatage period of Hall to Streets. It's so uniquely Savatage, you know it's them when you hear it.
Love that live album. Criss Oliva was such a fantastic player. Agreed on the tone - although I actually think, purely in terms of guitar work, the Edge of Thorns album was his absolute peak.
I'll agree with this. That has some of the most monumental lead playing ever in my opinion. The solos of the title track, He Carves His Stone, Degrees of Sanity, Miles Away and Follow Me are just out of this world.
Edge of Thorns was my first 'new' Savatage album after I discovered them with Gutter Ballet, (hadn't heard Streets at the time) and I had no idea that Jon had taken a step back from vocal duties, it was hard to get band news at the time so I was surprised to hear Zack's vocals. The whole album was a pleasant surprise with Criss' playing as the highlight.
That album has some absolutely amazing solos from Criss and those you mentioned indeed are truly out of this world. The production of that album is definitely my favorite of the band across the discography. The following Zack albums are excellent and been listening to them too.
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You knew him? Jesus, I class you a celebrity
I used to see him at their local club gigs, and talked to him quite a bit. I was in the Florida music scene just as "Hall of the Mountain King" was released. He was reserved and humble. Wasn't one to buy his own hype at all.
Even to this day, when October 17th rolls around, I see tribute posts about him from friends on Facebook. The Florida metal scene is still reeling after all these years.
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You knew him? Jesus, I class you a celebrity
I used to see him at their local club gigs, and talked to him quite a bit. I was in the Florida music scene just as "Hall of the Mountain King" was released. He was reserved and humble. Wasn't one to buy his own hype at all.
Even to this day, when October 17th rolls around, I see tribute posts about him from friends on Facebook. The Florida metal scene is still reeling after all these years.
With good reason, one of the biggest losses in music history in my book. He also seemed like the quiet humble type. What a player.
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Was late to the Savatage game at least by old-school standards and Edge Of Thorns was my first and remains my personal pick of the bunch for all the reasons pointed out already above.
Was one of those records bought on a whim based purely on the cover art and the fact I was young enough to have disposable income. Never once regretted that choice and then remember reading the terribly sad news of Chris' tragic passing not long after :-[
If you ask me the title-track Edge Of Thorns has to be one of the best anthemic openers of any album :metal
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I'll agree with this. That has some of the most monumental lead playing ever in my opinion. The solos of the title track, He Carves His Stone, Degrees of Sanity, Miles Away and Follow Me are just out of this world.
It's funny, learning to play the guitar, Criss was one of my biggest influences and it's funny that his two main influences which is so apparent now listening to him I never really got into as guitarists until just lately. Criss was a perfect mix of Michael Schenker and Eddie Van Halen. So I guess Criss was my Michael Schenker or Eddie for others.
Yep, I think this nails it. He took these influences, made them his, and sprinkled the whole thing with a healthy dose of metal :)
If you ask me the title-track Edge Of Thorns has to be one of the best anthemic openers of any album :metal
So, so good. That piano intro and then the guitar coming in...
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He just had that sparkle in his playing that I hear in both Schenker and Eddie. He used the Dorian mode a lot which Schenker did also.
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You know what, silly me I realised I'm missing probably the most important player having a listen through some random Tage tracks, Randy. Perfect combo of Randy, Eddie and Schenker.
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Kade, give me ONE Chris Oliva Savatage album to listen to. I assume he's the lone guitarist as well?
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Kade, give me ONE Chris Oliva Savatage album to listen to. I assume he's the lone guitarist as well?
I know you hate his brother, so that would leave Edge of Thorns which has Zak Stevens. Highlights are He Carves His Stone, Follow Me, title track.
Although, for a kick, check the instrumental Temptation Revelation from Gutter Ballet, tell me who he's thinking about when he wrote and recorded that.
I reckon though if you can stand Jon, you MAY get a kick out of the Heavier Hall of the Mountain King.
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Ok, even if I give hall a run through, I'll be concentrating in the guitar. I saw them on that tour. ;D
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Ok, even if I give hall a run through, I'll be concentrating in the guitar. I saw them on that tour. ;D
It's got more balls than Edge of Thorns, but has Jon Oliva. :lol
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Halls highlights are the title track, Beyond the Doors of the Dark, 24 Hours Ago and Strange Wings (Ray Gillan backing vocals!)
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Although, for a kick, check the instrumental Temptation Revelation from Gutter Ballet, tell me who he's thinking about when he wrote and recorded that.
Oh wow! Totally.
Check out Andy's solo at 1:30 on Is Anybody There? Even the opening riff too.
I'll try and get through some Savatage. I've heard them all, but I want to focus on Chris.
Speaking of guitarists that died way too young, I was listening to Raising Fear this morning. Dave Prichard was awesome..
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Although, for a kick, check the instrumental Temptation Revelation from Gutter Ballet, tell me who he's thinking about when he wrote and recorded that.
Oh wow! Totally.
Check out Andy's solo at 1:30 on Is Anybody There? Even the opening riff too.
I'll try and get through some Savatage. I've heard them all, but I want to focus on Chris.
Speaking of guitarists that died way too young, I was listening to Raising Fear this morning. Dave Prichard was awesome..
Huh?
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Andy Laroque-King Diamond-Give Me Your Soul...Please-Is The Anybody There?.
I know, random reference but a total Schenker moment.
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LaRocque did come to mind, but the song name didn't ring a bell. great album but always listened without really knowing the tracks. I'll grab the CD now.
Actually, check out the last song, don't know the name but I softer slower song, Andy's solo on that is fabulous, and also has some Schenkerisms. Underrated solo from him IMO.
EDIT: Moving On at 1:40. Fuck that's a good simple, effective solo.
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Ha, haven't listened to this one in ages. lol, Is Anybody There? is a rip off of Eastman's Curse haha.
Wow, he even has Scheker's tone on this little solo.
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I love GMYS...P. That and The Puppet Master are my two fave KD albums.
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I love GMYS...P. That and The Puppet Master are my two fave KD albums.
Yeah, Puppet Master is fantastic. I was always partial to Abigail II also.
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This has been a great thread of late, back listening to Hall and Gutter, Thorns too...
Just sayin' :metal
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And how great are "Silk and Steel" and "Temptation Revelation"?
I've often wondered what a Criss Oliva all-instrumental (comparable to Vai and Satriani) album would have been like.
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I’m sure I’ve posted this in this thread somewhere, but Criss’ solo in “Ghost in the Ruins” is one of my all time favorites.
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I've done an almost full re-listen to the bands albums with just Edge of Thorns and Poets and Madmen remaining. I had barely paid any attention to the first few releases up to and including Hall. All of them apart from Fight for the Rock have been excellent. I know the story behind Fight that the record company wanted a more radio friendly album and there are gems there but largely just an ok record. I have to say that debut of Sirens is really strong along with the Dungeons EP they recorded the same day. They've been great to re-discover and get a sense of progression. I think Gutter Ballet will always remain my favorite of theirs, each and every song on there never gets skipped by me.
I don't remember much of Poets and Madmen, don't remember being too crazy about it.
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I don't give Sirens and Dungeons enough attention. Fight For the Rock isn't THAT bad, but yeah it's not great.
I’m sure I’ve posted this in this thread somewhere, but Criss’ solo in “Ghost in the Ruins” is one of my all time favorites.
Amazing buildup, such a wonderful well crafted solo.
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Not necessarily Savatage but Chris C mentioned a month or so ago that he was writing songs with and for Jon. It turns out they are doing another Doctor Butcher record instead (bummer). They mentioned a mystery drummer they are lining up to record with. Still hoping for new Savatage.
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I've done an almost full re-listen to the bands albums with just Edge of Thorns and Poets and Madmen remaining. I had barely paid any attention to the first few releases up to and including Hall. All of them apart from Fight for the Rock have been excellent. I know the story behind Fight that the record company wanted a more radio friendly album and there are gems there but largely just an ok record. I have to say that debut of Sirens is really strong along with the Dungeons EP they recorded the same day. They've been great to re-discover and get a sense of progression. I think Gutter Ballet will always remain my favorite of theirs, each and every song on there never gets skipped by me.
I don't remember much of Poets and Madmen, don't remember being too crazy about it.
I didn’t care for it at first, but I revisited it several years later and fell in love with it. And Morphine Child may have surpassed The Hourglass as my all time favorite counterpoint song by them.
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I've done an almost full re-listen to the bands albums with just Edge of Thorns and Poets and Madmen remaining. I had barely paid any attention to the first few releases up to and including Hall. All of them apart from Fight for the Rock have been excellent. I know the story behind Fight that the record company wanted a more radio friendly album and there are gems there but largely just an ok record. I have to say that debut of Sirens is really strong along with the Dungeons EP they recorded the same day. They've been great to re-discover and get a sense of progression. I think Gutter Ballet will always remain my favorite of theirs, each and every song on there never gets skipped by me.
I don't remember much of Poets and Madmen, don't remember being too crazy about it.
I didn’t care for it at first, but I revisited it several years later and fell in love with it. And Morphine Child may have surpassed The Hourglass as my all time favorite counterpoint song by them.
PAM made my top 50. Incredible album.
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Poets and Madmen is excellent. So fitting for them to go out with Jon back on vocals. When I'm in the mood for some 'Tage I regularly reach for that album.
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Poets and Madmen is excellent. So fitting for them to go out with Jon back on vocals. When I'm in the mood for some 'Tage I regularly reach for that album.
You know what, I'm grabbing it right now for the car today.
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I've done an almost full re-listen to the bands albums with just Edge of Thorns and Poets and Madmen remaining. I had barely paid any attention to the first few releases up to and including Hall. All of them apart from Fight for the Rock have been excellent. I know the story behind Fight that the record company wanted a more radio friendly album and there are gems there but largely just an ok record. I have to say that debut of Sirens is really strong along with the Dungeons EP they recorded the same day. They've been great to re-discover and get a sense of progression. I think Gutter Ballet will always remain my favorite of theirs, each and every song on there never gets skipped by me.
I don't remember much of Poets and Madmen, don't remember being too crazy about it.
I didn’t care for it at first, but I revisited it several years later and fell in love with it. And Morphine Child may have surpassed The Hourglass as my all time favorite counterpoint song by them.
PAM made my top 50. Incredible album.
Poets and Madmen is excellent. So fitting for them to go out with Jon back on vocals. When I'm in the mood for some 'Tage I regularly reach for that album.
Forgot to get back to this album, finished the rest of the discography but somehow forgot to listen to Poets and Madmen. In a huge Floyd binge listen right now so might take a break from that and listen to this instead.
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I think Poets is their best album, not only having my favourite songs from theirs but also as a whole - the album is so strong.
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Poets and Madmen is excellent. So fitting for them to go out with Jon back on vocals. When I'm in the mood for some 'Tage I regularly reach for that album.
I've never even listened to it, because I much prefer Zak as the primary vocalist. I guess I'll have to give it a shot some day.
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So, I ran through PAM yesterday, and I can certainly see why it's a top 50 album. It's still gives me incredible feelings like it did when I first heard it. The guitar tones and production is out of this world, and the solos from both Pitrelli and Caffery are really good here. I actually never really took that much noticed of the lead work here but it's out of this world.
Morphine Child and Commissar are just amazing.
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So, I ran through PAM yesterday, and I can certainly see why it's a top 50 album. It's still gives me incredible feelings like it did when I first heard it. The guitar tones and production is out of this world, and the solos from both Pitrelli and Caffery are really good here. I actually never really took that much noticed of the lead work here but it's out of this world.
Morphine Child and Commissar are just amazing.
Ya, I cannot figure out why Morphine Child didn’t hit me the first time I heard it. If we did a Savatage top 75 today, pretty sure that would be my #1 with a bullet.
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No no, I didn't fully get it for the longest time either. Massive grower.
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Morphine Child is a good song and probably my favorite on the record, however I wouldn't put it above many of the Zak Stevens period's best tracks, especially "Chance."
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Morphine Child hit me right out of the gate when I first heard it. Absolutely love that track. Wow, that album is 21 years old. Holy crap.
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I still remember buying the CD from the store. It was kind of an interesting, unique sound for me upon hearing it, much different from everything else they've done. Jon's vocals on this actually took some time to grow also but something kept drawing me back to it. I then re-purchased it later with hardcover box.
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The only track I remember from Poets is the bonus track “Shotgun Innocence” with Criss and Zak. Maybe I’ll have to go back for a listen as well.
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So I listened to Poets And Madmen today and it is a fucking outstanding album. I actually had never heard it before, I have no clue why I thought it was just an ok album or even that I listened to it before. Commissar, Morphine Child and Man in the Mirror are instantly memorable. Agree with wolf that the production is fantastic, it's like discovering a long-lost album of a band. Can't wait to spin it again and again. The solos also are terrific here, even though Pitrelli's only on a few tracks, his playing is great. It's a great album to end on assuming there isn't any new stuff coming out.
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I really need to go back and listen to this. Been at least a decade.
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So I listened to Poets And Madmen today and it is a fucking outstanding album. I actually had never heard it before, I have no clue why I thought it was just an ok album or even that I listened to it before. Commissar, Morphine Child and Man in the Mirror are instantly memorable. Agree with wolf that the production is fantastic, it's like discovering a long-lost album of a band. Can't wait to spin it again and again. The solos also are terrific here, even though Pitrelli's only on a few tracks, his playing is great. It's a great album to end on assuming there isn't any new stuff coming out.
Caffery is no slouch though. It always kind of annoyed me that on DWD and Magellan all leads (bar a couple of exceptions) were Pitrelli. I know I think they did this as live Caffery handles Criss' stuff so there is a bit of a split, but I always found it odd. I have a better ear these days but maybe I need to go back and listen through, maybe I'm wrong.
I loved the split on PAM though. Caffery rips on songs like Drive and I Seek Power so I like the split. Glad you enjoyed it.
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I really need to go back and listen to this. Been at least a decade.
Yeah, me too. I remember liking it, not loving it…time to revisit!
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So I listened to Poets And Madmen today and it is a fucking outstanding album. I actually had never heard it before, I have no clue why I thought it was just an ok album or even that I listened to it before. Commissar, Morphine Child and Man in the Mirror are instantly memorable. Agree with wolf that the production is fantastic, it's like discovering a long-lost album of a band. Can't wait to spin it again and again. The solos also are terrific here, even though Pitrelli's only on a few tracks, his playing is great. It's a great album to end on assuming there isn't any new stuff coming out.
Caffery is no slouch though. It always kind of annoyed me that on DWD and Magellan all leads (bar a couple of exceptions) were Pitrelli. I know I think they did this as live Caffery handles Criss' stuff so there is a bit of a split, but I always found it odd. I have a better ear these days but maybe I need to go back and listen through, maybe I'm wrong.
I loved the split on PAM though. Caffery rips on songs like Drive and I Seek Power so I like the split. Glad you enjoyed it.
That's right Caffery is no slouch, in fact I think the majority of the solos are his as I read that Al was on his way to join Megadeth at that point. On next listen I'm going to pay attention to the solos a lot more.
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Pitrelli played on Commissar, Morphine Child, Stay With Me and the Rumor.
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PAM is just so good. That guitar work in Commissar is just..... :metal :metal :metal
Was so good to hear Jon on vocals again and great final (hopefully not) album. Although there's not many 'bad' savatage albums (except maybe FFTR, but i still like a lot from it).
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I had never listened to PAM (it wasn't on Spotify for a long time?) and now that it is checked it out this weekend. It's really good! I still can't stop playing Morphine Child.
I wish this band would play more shows so I could catch one live. The Wacken reunion thing was cool but I could do without TSO as we see them every year anyways.
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Handful of Rain and Edge of Thorns Vinyl
https://savatagemerch.myshopify.com/?fbclid=IwAR2MOOdSiFuPoowLmt5zptSPS9AfmG8eoPyNuAGkDfv_wb7-cKZQIo6L7-Q
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I enjoyed this (year old) interview with Johnny Lee Middleton .............if you haven't seen it there's plenty about Savatage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgo-EftedRs
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Every time someone bumps this thread I think two things - new album or someone died.
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I think of tabs made by the guy with the porcupine avatar or whatever the animal is
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Some Savatage news
https://blabbermouth.net/news/zak-stevens-hints-at-new-savatage-music-says-fans-should-keep-being-patient
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Most have been tricked by an update in this thread for years. When the band gives me a release date, artwork and the first single, then I will know there is new Savatage music lol.
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Most have been tricked by an update in this thread for years. When the band gives me a release date, artwork and the first single, then I will know there is new Savatage music lol.
Right? What kind of update is "Be patient"? :lol
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Most have been tricked by an update in this thread for years. When the band gives me a release date, artwork and the first single, then I will know there is new Savatage music lol.
Right? What kind of update is "Be patient"? :lol
just sit around and stare into space for over two decades.
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Some Savatage news
https://blabbermouth.net/news/zak-stevens-hints-at-new-savatage-music-says-fans-should-keep-being-patient
Where's the news?
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Most have been tricked by an update in this thread for years. When the band gives me a release date, artwork and the first single, then I will know there is new Savatage music lol.
Right? What kind of update is "Be patient"? :lol
just sit around and stare into space for over two decades.
Well, I've ticked that box.
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Some Savatage news
https://blabbermouth.net/news/zak-stevens-hints-at-new-savatage-music-says-fans-should-keep-being-patient
Where's the news?
LOL
Well they have been writing, recording, and sorting some label stuff. I think that's the most news we have received on Savatage in ages. And the fact that Zak is saying this means he is involved unlike Poets and Madmen.
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I just hope they don't all die and we get some rough demo tapes for the labels to make money off of them. At this point, they and Crimson Glory are competing who will edge their fans the longest lol. And I love Zack and hope he's involved but I'd like the last Savatage record to have extensive singing by Oliva.
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Some Savatage news
https://blabbermouth.net/news/zak-stevens-hints-at-new-savatage-music-says-fans-should-keep-being-patient
Where's the news?
LOL
Well they have been writing, recording, and sorting some label stuff. I think that's the most news we have received on Savatage in ages. And the fact that Zak is saying this means he is involved unlike Poets and Madmen.
Haha, thanks. I was being sarcastic though. :D
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I just hope they don't all die and we get some rough demo tapes for the labels to make money off of them. At this point, they and Crimson Glory are competing who will edge their fans the longest lol. And I love Zack and hope he's involved but I'd like the last Savatage record to have extensive singing by Oliva.
Crimson Glory pretty much imploded. Todd left and then Jon Drenning was arrested for some drug issues. I don't think I've heard a peep out of that band for 10 years, unlike Savatage, who keep talking about new music, but don't produce anything substantial.
What I don't get is that with Paul O'Neill gone, there shouldn't be too many obstacles for Savatage, unless his estate holds some sort of rights to the name. He died nearly 10 years ago and TSO and Savatage have yet to even put out any material.
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Some Savatage news
https://blabbermouth.net/news/zak-stevens-hints-at-new-savatage-music-says-fans-should-keep-being-patient
Where's the news?
LOL
Well they have been writing, recording, and sorting some label stuff. I think that's the most news we have received on Savatage in ages. And the fact that Zak is saying this means he is involved unlike Poets and Madmen.
Haha, thanks. I was being sarcastic though. :D
You forgot the green font! :lol
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It has to be legalities with Paul's estate, and also Jon Oliva got into some really bad trouble with the law (was it last year?) so hopefully he's in a good space mentally and with his health. The last picture I saw he had lost a ton of weight. I think they can still crank out some decent tunes between Jon, Chris, Zak, and maybe Al P? I know he's with TSO and sure he's still part of the family.
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This flew right by me, there's a new Archon Angel that just got released. Always interested in stuff with Zak. Need to check this out.
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This flew right by me, there's a new Archon Angel that just got released. Always interested in stuff with Zak. Need to check this out.
The first one was pretty decent, should check it out too.
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Is the new AA album out? I checked Spotify and only saw two singles. I think I prefer Fortress over Afterburn. Need to listen to the first album though, I love Zak's voice and singing.
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I guess Friday is release day. I found it at Laser CD as they already have it in stock and shipping.
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What I don't get is that with Paul O'Neill gone, there shouldn't be too many obstacles for Savatage, unless his estate holds some sort of rights to the name. He died nearly 10 years ago and TSO and Savatage have yet to even put out any material.
Wasn't TSO the biggest obstacle, being a year long commitment?
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Is the new AA album out? I checked Spotify and only saw two singles. I think I prefer Fortress over Afterburn. Need to listen to the first album though, I love Zak's voice and singing.
This Friday
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Checked out a couple of samples of the Archon release and it was enough for me to pull the trigger. My Amazon order is shipping now. I was going to order from Laser CD or Frontiers US shop but they were already sold out of their stock. Amazon is awful with Frontiers releases but this one worked out, plus it came with Auto-rip so I can listen now if I want.
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Good on you!
I spent all of yesterday with II in the ears and couldn't wait to repeat it all again today. Far exceeds my expectations, heaps of Zavatage and CIIC throwins and a huge step up from their debut really hard to choose a favourite it changes with each listen.
I worry with a lack of reviews out there though this one won't get the push it deserves which would be unfortunate.
Can't wait to have a hardcopy in hand \m/
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I worry with a lack of reviews out there though this one won't get the push it deserves which would be unfortunate.
Tell me about it. The fact that it completely flew over this site is shocking. If it wasn't for the like 1 day Laser CD had it in stock I probably still wouldn't know of it. Those samples sounded really good. My CD is shipped so hoping to have it on Monday.
I even checked this place's release date sticky and it wasn't there. Guess Frontiers couldn't be bothered to support it.
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I'll get onto it then, good to hear.
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ACTUAL UPDATE on SAVATAGE STUFF!
Right from Jon Oliva - new album by next April. Tentatively called "Curtain Call"
https://bravewords.com/news/jon-oliva-reveals-new-savatage-album-working-title-lineup-and-more-this-will-probably-be-the-last-record-we-ever-make-ever-video (https://bravewords.com/news/jon-oliva-reveals-new-savatage-album-working-title-lineup-and-more-this-will-probably-be-the-last-record-we-ever-make-ever-video)
Seems everyone will be involved.
Fingers crossed?
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"I'll Believe It When I Hold It In My Hands"
although it does seem more real than the other news items of the last few years.
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Got excited reading that. Almost made me shed a tear with Jon talking about the whole last record and goodbye to the fans and whatnot.
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Got excited reading that. Almost made me shed a tear with Jon talking about the whole last record and goodbye to the fans and whatnot.
:tup
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ACTUAL UPDATE on SAVATAGE STUFF!
Right from Jon Oliva - new album by next April. Tentatively called "Curtain Call"
https://bravewords.com/news/jon-oliva-reveals-new-savatage-album-working-title-lineup-and-more-this-will-probably-be-the-last-record-we-ever-make-ever-video (https://bravewords.com/news/jon-oliva-reveals-new-savatage-album-working-title-lineup-and-more-this-will-probably-be-the-last-record-we-ever-make-ever-video)
Seems everyone will be involved.
Fingers crossed?
That is a very sizeable and concrete update. Getting Doc to drum on a song or two is cool. Very curious about that last song with only Jon and piano. Having 40-50 songs to trim down into an album sounds like a good problem to have.
That was a good read, probably going to go on a Savatage binge now.
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Great news for us fans, but hopefully some is lost in the text but he doesn't sound like he's in a good place, overall.
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Great news for us fans, but hopefully some is lost in the text but he doesn't sound like he's in a good place, overall.
I had a listen to the audio and yeah...............he sounded rather volatile/depressed. Reminded me of listening to an Eddie VH interview when he was off the wagon.
I didn't realise he lost his stepson to an overdose recently in addition to his brother (and later his wife), his missus , Paul O'Neill etc....etc.........sounds like it's all catching up with him at the moment :-\
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Yeah must be so hard :-[
Thanks for the update
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Great news for us fans, but hopefully some is lost in the text but he doesn't sound like he's in a good place, overall.
I had a listen to the audio and yeah...............he sounded rather volatile/depressed. Reminded me of listening to an Eddie VH interview when he was off the wagon.
I didn't realise he lost his stepson to an overdose recently in addition to his brother (and later his wife), his missus , Paul O'Neill etc....etc.........sounds like it's all catching up with him at the moment :-\
Jesus, his wife died too? I didn't know that. Or you meant Criss' wife?
Don't forget his guitarist in JOP Matt LaPorte. He also passed about 10 years ago.
I'll try and get some time to listen to the audio.
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His wife too it seems.................although I've never seen mention of his wife's name or any pics in public with Jon. Rather unusual but perhaps he went to great pains to keep her out of the spotlight.
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I'm looking forward to a new album - his description of the final song (Curtain Call) is almost enough to bring tears to my eyes, let alone hearing him sing it.
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His wife too it seems.................although I've never seen mention of his wife's name or any pics in public with Jon. Rather unusual but perhaps he went to great pains to keep her out of the spotlight.
Far out. How the hell does he keep marching on?
Maybe the thought on finally closing the door on Savatage is just another dying love for him.
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Sounds like Jon is in a creative place and wants to see Savatage go out with the best music he can do. I found it interesting that he said he has so much material, but hasn't decided quite yet if this is the last, or if another will come later. I think it likely will depend on how the new album and tour is received. The festival circuit is going to get a lot of the love. Hope a regular tour is possible.
Jon has been through a lot in his life in regard to personal tragedy. We all go through a lot. But man, that poor guy. I could understand him feeling like it's time to do this the right way, instead of keep waiting.
Looking forward to the new music and live performances. Really glad he and Zak will be singing together and separately throughout the new album. Love that dynamic.
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Well they were working on the new Savatage album........until Jon broke his spine. Sounds like they plan on starting things back up beginning of next year. Hope his recovery goes well.
https://blabbermouth.net/news/savatages-jon-oliva-fractures-spine-i-slipped-on-a-wet-marble-floor-he-says (https://blabbermouth.net/news/savatages-jon-oliva-fractures-spine-i-slipped-on-a-wet-marble-floor-he-says)
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yikes.
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Jesus, luck certainly isn't on his side. Hope he recovers quickly.
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Super stoked for 1, maybe 2 records with both Jon and Zach.
I found this comment prophetic, almost:
"This is gonna be the best album I ever made," Oliva promised. "Unless I kill myself."
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This band can't never, ever, NEVER EVER EVER catch a break, can't they?
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Let's remember today one of the most talented and most unlucky guitarists in the entire scene, the never forgotten Criss Oliva.
Unreal - he died 30 years ago at 30. He's been dead for as long as he's been alive. The music he created remains and will continue to entertain and touch people for many years to come.
:heart
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RIP Criss.
Alone You Breathe....
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Such a tragic loss. What could have been. RIP.
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Tragic loss indeed…
Truly crazy to think it was 30 years ago. I still remember reading about it in a magazine…pre-internet era…