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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: MarceloMalulo on August 30, 2022, 05:03:41 PM
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Does anyone know how to watch the stream from Dream Theater in RIR?
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https://globoplay.globo.com/rock-in-rio-2022/t/7PwrnCJmLM/
But I don't know if non brazilians can register. Anyway, I'm pretty sure it will be on Youtube on Saturday.
Edit: some countries can register:
https://ajuda.globo.com/s/article/O-Globoplay-esta-disponivel-no-exterior
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Anyway, I'm pretty sure it will be on Youtube on Saturday.
Patiently waiting for this :lol :tup
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https://globoplay.globo.com/rock-in-rio-2022/t/7PwrnCJmLM/
But I don't know if non brazilians can register. Anyway, I'm pretty sure it will be on Youtube on Saturday.
Edit: some countries can register:
https://ajuda.globo.com/s/article/O-Globoplay-esta-disponivel-no-exterior
Already registered!!!
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Cool, glad to know!!
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It’s on YouTube.
I already watched it this morning. It was awesome seeing them play in front of the massive crowd….at night! The band seemed to be awestruck by it also.
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Yeah!!! It was so good to watch the stream and it was also a great performance. I recorded the audio, if anyone is interested.
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This being Rio, I can only guess that those towering structures in the crowd were meant to resemble crucifixes. CREEPY.
I don't think I've ever heard JM this loud and clear before, but on the other hand the drum mix was severely lacking. The backing vocal track was also easily distinguishable. I can't say I'm a fan of what they're doing there.
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This being Rio, I can only guess that those towering structures in the crowd were meant to resemble crucifixes. CREEPY.
Those are lighting towers. If you look at JP’s Facebook page, he just posted pics that have them.
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I was at the show and the live sound was loud and clear (even a bit too loud :D), including the bass. James real voice was strong and you barely could hear the backing tracks. DT really sounded massive. If the broadcasting didn't capture that, it's disappointing. the only "flaw" was the short setlist of 1h 15 minutes.
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This being Rio, I can only guess that those towering structures in the crowd were meant to resemble crucifixes. CREEPY.
I don't think I've ever heard JM this loud and clear before, but on the other hand the drum mix was severely lacking. The backing vocal track was also easily distinguishable. I can't say I'm a fan of what they're doing there.
Oof this mix is terrible for exposing those pesky backing tracks. Not a terrible mix, but it's more noticeable on this mix than it is when I saw them or from my own videos of seeing them.
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This being Rio, I can only guess that those towering structures in the crowd were meant to resemble crucifixes. CREEPY.
Those are lighting towers. If you look at JP’s Facebook page, he just posted pics that have them.
I am aware of that, just wondering if that's part of their design.
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I watched the stream last night in real time and it was a great show! :metal
Being a high quality stream, and I was also wearing earphones, I could clearly hear and distinguish James' live vocals vs the backing tracks. He sounded really good, though he struggled in some sections, specially during PMU. However, I was shocked at how much of the "lead" melodies were piped in along with his live singing throughout the show and not just "extra" vocals added. And THAT infamous section on BITS clearly shows that the lead melody is being carried entirely by the tracks, while he sang in a lower, softer voice.
While he's clearly singing and not lip-syncing, they seem to be relying heavily on the tracks to mask some imperfections/weaknesses in the vocal department, more than ever. JP's mic was inaudible too :laugh:
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TCOT and PMU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uT0Kgb16Ags
:metal
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Here's the whole DT show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgKoYHYWeck
Starting at the 32 minute.
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That was so much fun to watch. Great to see the boys in front of so many people, right before the great Iron Maiden. :metal
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ty everyone for the info
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Yeah!!! It was so good to watch the stream and it was also a great performance. I recorded the audio, if anyone is interested.
I am interested in the audio :). Thanks in advance.
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Yeah!!! It was so good to watch the stream and it was also a great performance. I recorded the audio, if anyone is interested.
Yes please!!!
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Wow, the giant video screen behind them looks incredible.
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That was so much fun to watch. Great to see the boys in front of so many people, right before the great Iron Maiden. :metal
I think they actually went onstage after Iron Maiden.
I watched an interview the other day with JLB an JR and some brazilian guy, and JLB said they were supposed to start at 11.30 pm
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Just watched their entire show. Amazing!
Jesus, how good is The Count Of Tuscany?
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Here's the full audio:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CjPI1MeCDxWYn6brm8FQqGYpUROYEbpx?usp=sharing
(Sorry for cutting the intro, the journalists didn't stop talking! >:( )
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Thank you Marcelo! Much appreciated.
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Just watched their entire show. Amazing!
Jesus, how good is The Count Of Tuscany?
Right? I saw it live 3 times this tour, and it never gets old. I got emotional watching it again, and there really is nothing emotional about the lyrics.
And that Huge screen and stage. Really is one of the best live songs for them
The Count is my sons favorite DT song. I took him to one of the shows this tour and he wasn't spoiled on the setlist. If you watch the beginning here of the Count, there is a woman about to weep when she realizes what they are playing. I sent my son this video. He said that was him when he saw it .
My heart is full for DT. A grammy and this show. They deserve it.
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The Count is my sons favorite DT song. I took him to one of the shows this tour and he wasn't spoiled on the setlist.
When BC&SL came out, my kids were 8 and 6. For some reason my 8 y/o loved TCOT and my 6 y/o loved TBOT.
Well, I brought that 6 y/o, now 19, to the show this year and he even remembered on the way out that his brother loved track #7 and he always liked track #6.
I was so happy.
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Here's the full audio:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CjPI1MeCDxWYn6brm8FQqGYpUROYEbpx?usp=sharing
(Sorry for cutting the intro, the journalists didn't stop talking! >:( )
:metal :metal :metal
I missed the first parts of The Alien yesterday because of those annoying presenters talking too much :lol :facepalm:
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Thanks, Marcelo! Nice story, Tim! :heart
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Here's the full audio:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CjPI1MeCDxWYn6brm8FQqGYpUROYEbpx?usp=sharing
(Sorry for cutting the intro, the journalists didn't stop talking! >:( )
Thanks for this. Appreciated!
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Amazing show 😎✨ Lots of energy from the band and the crowd.
James looked and sounded beautiful 🔥😇
Everything was perfectly on point. I only wish they had not taken out AVFTTOTW.
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I believe that DT has set a new record for the festival: the longest song played on it, with TCOT. :coolio
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Cool show!
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I believe that DT has set a new record for the festival: the longest song played on it, with TCOT. :coolio
The Count was a major high point, along with BITS, Invisible Monster, and The Alien.
I'm hoping more than ever now that we get a dvd!
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I believe that DT has set a new record for the festival: the longest song played on it, with TCOT. :coolio
The Count was a major high point, along with BITS, Invisible Monster, and The Alien.
I'm hoping more than ever now that we get a dvd!
And maybe this should be in the other thread...Yes the RIR would be a cool dvd, but if its this tour cycle, it must include A View.
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And maybe this should be in the other thread...Yes the RIR would be a cool dvd, but if its this tour cycle, it must include A View.
Absolutely! 💯
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This was great to watch, James was a bit rough out of the gate with The Alien, but he cleared out the cobwebs and made a nice recovery for the rest of the show. At first I was worried because his voice crackled in the first chorus. and he knew it and went and got a drink of water. He sounded great onwards, so props to him! 💪
It's just so cool to see DT play in front of such a huge crowd. They deserve that kind of recognition and their music translates well in a big larger then life presentation. 👏
Like Geemo said, I hope we get a full show dvd from this tour.
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If they were able to play About to Crash and The Ministry of Lost Souls...There'd be more amazing shots of those crying ladies... :lol :lol
But, honestly, that was me when they started those songs. Especially that one that was tearing up at the intro to TCOT. I still couldn't believe I was hearing it being played, until the vocals came in, then the entire ending was awesome. Only thing was, I wish JLB would've sang the ending, for me, JLB's vocals make that part and hearing him doing it live would've been way better than what they did with him just allowing the audience to sing along to his backing tracks.
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If they were able to play About to Crash and The Ministry of Lost Souls...There'd be more amazing shots of those crying ladies... :lol :lol
But, honestly, that was me when they started those songs. Especially that one that was tearing up at the intro to TCOT. I still couldn't believe I was hearing it being played, until the vocals came in, then the entire ending was awesome. Only thing was, I wish JLB would've sang the ending, for me, JLB's vocals make that part and hearing him doing it live would've been way better than what they did with him just allowing the audience to sing along to his backing tracks.
That crying lady at the beginning of the Count. I mentioned her to my son, when I shared the video. He said, "that was me". I made a pretty good meme of her and sent it to him. I'd share here, but this place is way too advanced for my inserted a pic here.
On another note. I realized as I got on my bike this morning, that I had never ridden to the Count. I turned on this RiR verson. What a perfect riding song! The beginning sounds like how you put music to road touring. I thought of the Flintstones and Fred's car. :rollin
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https://www.guitars101.com/threads/dream-theater-live-rock-in-rio-2022.786459/
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Just watched the first 2 songs. Jeez, this is rough. I feel for James.
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Just watched the first 2 songs. Jeez, this is rough. I feel for James.
James' performance gets better after the first song, but yeah The Alien was rough. These things happen. 🤪
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Yeah, The Alien was rough indeed. In addition to JLB struggling, MM's drums were inaudible.
I've learned to truly appreciate what MM brings to the table in the studio. He's a beast. But on a stage like this in front of so many people, his performance was so subdued. There was just no showmanship or theatrics at all. Now in fairness maybe JP said to MM at some point in time,...we already had a showy drummer and we don't really want that anymore. I can only observe from afar. It is what it is. In contrast, I watched Metal Allegiance performance and although their music is not really my cuppa, MP owned his performance. The man just knows how to excite a crowd. I really don't want to ruffle any feathers since I love them both, but in a live setting on a grand stage like RIR, I'll take Portnoy every single time.
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I'm one that does not kind them utilizing backing vocals. I am not a fan of them being so high in the mix. I thought they were too high at Mesa, did a bit better in Austin, but here they're just as loud, if not louder than Mesa was.
Now it makes me wonder if they do a live video release, just how loud will the backing vocals be in the mix.
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I like how JM sits in the mix :metal
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This was great to watch, James was a bit rough out of the gate with The Alien, but he cleared out the cobwebs and made a nice recovery for the rest of the show. At first I was worried because his voice crackled in the first chorus. and he knew it and went and got a drink of water. He sounded great onwards, so props to him! 💪
It's just so cool to see DT play in front of such a huge crowd. They deserve that kind of recognition and their music translates well in a big larger then life presentation. 👏
Like Geemo said, I hope we get a full show dvd from this tour.
I noticed the same Alien issue at the show I was at. I think the backing vocal with the echo might be mixed in a little too high, throwing the tempo off.
But also, the Alien is a great example of what we were talking about in the "tuning down" thread, on the harder-to-appreciate ways that DT music can be so vocally challenging. The song is in a an odd time signature to begin with, and the delay effect on the voice requires James to come in right on the dime, or the whole first verse will sound off.
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I'm one that does not kind them utilizing backing vocals. I am not a fan of them being so high in the mix.
I don't care too much about the piped in backing vocals either other than JP singing along like it's him we hear. The problem is the backing tracks of JLB when JLB is also singing. I didn't really notice this too much the two times I saw them live this year, but I believe it's more due to the mix here where the backing tracks are a bit louder. Their performance at RiR was awesome, I just think it sucks the mix made this more audible.
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Just watched the first 2 songs. Jeez, this is rough. I feel for James.
James' performance gets better after the first song, but yeah The Alien was rough. These things happen. 🤪
6:00 and ES aren't much better. That last section of ES is just painful. I love this band so much but it's getting bad. Regardless of how songs sound, they need to tune down more or try and streamline the song selections even more.
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Just watched the first 2 songs. Jeez, this is rough. I feel for James.
James' performance gets better after the first song, but yeah The Alien was rough. These things happen. 🤪
6:00 and ES aren't much better. That last section of ES is just painful. I love this band so much but it's getting bad. Regardless of how songs sound, they need to tune down more or try and streamline the song selections even more.
I don't really think it's getting bad. For me, I would've preferred hearing more of JLBs live vocals being more prominent in the mix. I want to hear his live vocals rather than the backng track.
I appreciate his vocals and is one reason why I am upset he didn't even bother to attempt the last vocals of TCOT. That j have more of a problem with then with how he sings those other songs.
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Not sure what was supposedly "bad" about that performance at all. That's a headscratcher for sure.
But agree with Cram on the backing track. I've come to accept the use of extensive backing tracks since so many bands use them now. But to have vocals in the backing track that high in the mix is REALLY distracting.
EDIT: Echoing what I said some months ago after seeing the tour, this tour has taken Endless Sacrifice from one of my least favorite tracks on TOT to one of my most favorites. Amazing performances this tour.
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I'd love to see this released on BluRay... Hopefully!
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I guess we're just never allowed to call James' performance into question anymore ::). What a joke. However, I feel he was pretty decent for 2022 overall and especially on The Count. I do agree with the previous posters about the piped in vocals and MM, but dead horses I guess.
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Personally, I loved this show. My only real complaint is about the pre-recorded vocals, because they really do get bizarre when highlighted. I much prefer that the vocals are just done by JLB and JP (and why not break a paradigm and add JR and MM as well?), with their limitations and all. I understand the opposing opinions, but I think it's amazing to see MM play live, just because what he plays and the way he plays is totally amazing.
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I guess we're just never allowed to call James' performance into question anymore ::). What a joke.
People are "allowed" to call anything into question. But (a) "it's not what you say, but how you say it" is an important guideline that a few people seem to have difficulty employing at times, and (b) not all criticism/call into question is created equal or equally valid. Some is just offbase and ridiculous and deserves to be called out as such.
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...I think it's amazing to see MM play live, just because what he plays and the way he plays is totally amazing.
Agreed. I can't really comment on his playing here because (1) other than a few limited parts of the show, the camera seems like it is barely on him at all, and (2) his toms (and possibly other pieces as well) are REALLY low in the mix, so it's hard to hear what he is doing. I don't really agree with Emtee's comment about him being really subdued, because I've seen/heard him play plenty of times to know what he is doing, and I think his playing and stage presence are appropriate to the material and presentation. The problem with the editing in this show is, you just can't tell what he is doing because you barely see and hear him, other than hearing the basic beat and a few select accents. But then again, that's always the problem with live performances. Seems like somebody always gets the short end of the stick on either video or audio (or both). That's just the way it goes.
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Personally, I loved this show. My only real complaint is about the pre-recorded vocals, because they really do get bizarre when highlighted. I much prefer that the vocals are just done by JLB and JP (and why not break a paradigm and add JR and MM as well?), with their limitations and all.
Well, MM has said a few times that his backing vocals aren't too good (he did some live with Extreme), so he most likely wouldn't do it; but Jordan does sing well enough and could totally do it if he/the band wanted to go in that direction.
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About MM, I didn't know about it. And I understand Jordan's voice is deeper, so maybe it doesn't fit the DT material as much, although I think he does sing some DT songs at his solo piano shows (if I'm not mistaken). Anyway, if JP practiced more, maybe he could do better and more present backing vocals at shows. And I'm OK with JLB's present limitations, still, I'd rather it be him as a vocalist.
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About the MM, I didn't know about it. And I understand Jordan's voice is deeper, so maybe it doesn't fit the DT material as much, although I think he does sing some DT songs at his solo piano shows (if I'm not mistaken). Anyway, if JP practiced more, maybe he could do better and more present backing vocals at shows. And I'm OK with JLB's present limitations, still, I'd rather it be him as a vocalist.
I was just listening to The Silent Man on the way to work. I and thought to myself, "I love how JP harmonizes with JLB and even in his little solo parts his voice
is nice sounding. Wouldn't it be great if they utilized JP more to aid with vocals and in any subsequent records write melodies with this in mind."
And if Jordan is in a lower tone, he could do a bit of growling! :xbones
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Not sure what was supposedly "bad" about that performance at all. That's a headscratcher for sure.
But agree with Cram on the backing track. I've come to accept the use of extensive backing tracks since so many bands use them now. But to have vocals in the backing track that high in the mix is REALLY distracting.
EDIT: Echoing what I said some months ago after seeing the tour, this tour has taken Endless Sacrifice from one of my least favorite tracks on TOT to one of my most favorites. Amazing performances this tour.
I accept the use of the backing tracks as well, it actually makes sense when you consider the possible reasons for utilizing them in the first place. One reason could be JP not being that great of a singer and I feel he doesn't really want to sing backing vocals anymore. Singing back-up vocals was a MP thing and I think he was the one who encouraged JP to sing as well.
I want to say this tour has been amazing both times I went. Endless Sacrifice was a big highlight for me because the band was on-point for it. It was also one song that this mix really complimented well. JR's piano runs were beautiful too.
I enjoyed the performance on this stream, but I had some issues with the mix lacking some aspects that were part of the show. If you went to a show, the lower ends were immense and you could really feel Mangini's drums.
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I guess we're just never allowed to call James' performance into question anymore ::). What a joke.
People are "allowed" to call anything into question. But (a) "it's not what you say, but how you say it" is an important guideline that a few people seem to have difficulty employing at times, and (b) not all criticism/call into question is created equal or equally valid. Some is just offbase and ridiculous and deserves to be called out as such.
How would you like me to say it? You're calling me out for what, my opinion on his vocals here? They are not very good IMO, I'm sorry about that. It's just sad to see.
I think people need to put their fanboy status on the band aside once in a while too.
Anyway, that's enough out of me regarding James.
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I have long said that James was one of the reasons I became a fan of the band, and he is one of my all-time favorite singers, but his live struggles are so obvious now.
I won't post the link (if it is even still available), but there was a feed from the Rio concert of him without the backing track help, and let's just say, it was painful to listen to. 30 years of abusing his voice live have taken their toll.
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Sampled some of the Rock in Rio performance and yes James vocals are very poor. I don't think there is any other way to say it - off key, wailing vowels without any articulation between words, just a mess.
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I have long said that James was one of the reasons I became a fan of the band, and he is one of my all-time favorite singers, but his live struggles are so obvious now.
I won't post the link (if it is even still available), but there was a feed from the Rio concert of him without the backing track help, and let's just say, it was painful to listen to. 30 years of abusing his voice live have taken their toll.
Have you ever heard some soundboard bootlegs from the ToT tour?
I'm asking because you could have said the very same thing already back then.
And then the Octavarium tour came.
And it was followed by the SC one.
James voice condition has always been a mistery to me. I obviously have no clue what is going on now, but one thing that has cought my attention is the gum he always has in his mouth (i guess it's to stimulate the production of saliva) and a clear shortage of breath.
Add to that the fact that the guy has gained quite some weight since The Astonishing tour.
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I think one of the worst things about the backing tracks is that James has a tendency to improvise both rythmically and tonally, so even though he may sing totally fine, it doesn't fit with the backing tracks.
Some times his improvisation is really, really bad though...like, what is he thinking?
Overall, the vocal-performance was OK, but some of the choices James is making really throws me off..
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James is kinda OK at this show. It's clear it is his one of the off day but this is the James now. I accept it.
I watched IR too and to be honest I had a hard time hearing/understanding what Bruce singing. This guy is all over the place, running, jumping, changing clothes, posing but definitely not for singing. For a comporasion at least James is singing.
I am not defending James or making excuses. Admit that he is clearly bad at this show but I see him trying and fitting in. Bruce is in a level that doing only frontman things but not singing. I hope James will not go there.
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I'd rather see the band with James on his worst night than them without him/with someone else. I have no problem with old singers sounding terribly as they age. That's life. Meat Loaf sounded like dogshit in the last 10 years of his career, and I wouldn't hesitate for even a second to a buy a ticket to any tour that was announced. Bon Jovi, Billy Joel, and many living legends' voices are a shadow of what they once were. I still get excited to see them.
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I think one of the worst things about the backing tracks is that James has a tendency to improvise both rythmically and tonally, so even though he may sing totally fine, it doesn't fit with the backing tracks.
Some times his improvisation is really, really bad though...like, what is he thinking?
It bothers me that he chooses alternative vocal lines the last couple of years. As he has to polish or update original vocal decisions. Everytime he does so it keeps me thinking 'WTF, why?' just try to sing the original maybe lower tuned. Cause most of the time the sync is off or it fits not well. Just my 2 cents....
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Finally getting around to this.
On Alien now, my feelings toward the song aside, why is MM so low in the mix? I'm really struggling to hear a lot of his playing.
Edit: On ES now. Drum mix has improved. I can also see what a lot of you are saying about James.
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I'd rather see the band with James on his worst night than them without him/with someone else. I have no problem with old singers sounding terribly as they age. That's life. Meat Loaf sounded like dogshit in the last 10 years of his career, and I wouldn't hesitate for even a second to a buy a ticket to any tour that was announced. Bon Jovi, Billy Joel, and many living legends' voices are a shadow of what they once were. I still get excited to see them.
I get maybe that not everyone is able to do what they were once able to do, but Bon Jovi is not even trying. He's just showing up to collect your money.
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I don't think I'd ever heard the piped in backing vocals this loud. I think I was in denial about JP miming the backing vocals live (always figured he was just that good), but those backing vocals are... intriguing. I noticed in the Iron Maiden broadcast how the mix really emphasized many elements that are usually buried, but this went beyond that.
What's curious is that in one of the Bridges in the Sky choruses JLB chose to sing the low part of the harmony while the tape took care of the high part (https://youtu.be/WFW_oi-xcSc?t=2166). That didn't sound half bad to me, but isn't something I've ever perceived them doing before live.
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The funny thing about that is that none of us were able to hear the lower part being sung on any of the earlier recordings. It looked like lip-synching and we were pissed, to say the least. :lol
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The funny thing about that is that none of us were able to hear the lower part being sung on any of the earlier recordings. It looked like lip-synching and we were pissed, to say the least. :lol
Truth be told, at the first shows (watched almost all the videos available), you couldn't hear the lower part at all.
After the whole debate started, and James addressed the lip-synch allegations, you can hear him singing the lower octave part on all the videos :-[
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Maybe they realized they need to turn up the lower vocals in the mix so that we can hear them. Had they been louder in the mix from the start, James would have saved himself some scrutiny.
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During that part at my show, I cracked a smile at James' very dignified delivery of the lower octave :lol and he caught my eye and smiled and nodded. Very funny, my man, but I still think you weren't really singing during the first few shows :biggrin: :police:
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I'd rather see the band with James on his worst night than them without him/with someone else. I have no problem with old singers sounding terribly as they age. That's life. Meat Loaf sounded like dogshit in the last 10 years of his career, and I wouldn't hesitate for even a second to a buy a ticket to any tour that was announced. Bon Jovi, Billy Joel, and many living legends' voices are a shadow of what they once were. I still get excited to see them.
I get maybe that not everyone is able to do what they were once able to do, but Bon Jovi is not even trying. He's just showing up to collect your money.
Yes, let's not compare him to lesser singers who were never in his league and never even had a fraction of his talent to begin with?
And... "old singers"?! Wow. Is that the new low here, just resorting to calling him old?! In what universe is that even true (he's not even 60 yet, what are you gonna call him when he's an actual senior citizen?) or even not just a mean thing to say?!
And honestly, are we still beating the same old dead "lipsyncing" horse after six months because we can't come up with any other more original way to just bash him?! It's obvious the creativity has run out if it's come to just calling him "old".
I've spent precious time here explaining how the voice works and why it's not his age or any other perceived (real or imagined) flaw any why all these criticisms are unfounded, but my efforts are obviously falling on deaf ears. Or, ears who just refuse to read fact and take it to heart. The trend is always gonna be to just mindlessly tear James down. I don't get it, but whatever. If the majority were just tearing down your favorite band member (whom you understand because you play the same instrument) I'm sure you'd be just as upset as I am.
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And honestly, are we still beating the same old dead "lipsyncing" horse after six months because we can't come up with any other more original way to just bash him?! It's obvious the creativity has run out if it's come to just calling him "old".
I've spent precious time here explaining how the voice works and why it's not his age or any other perceived (real or imagined) flaw any why all these criticisms are unfounded, but my efforts are obviously falling on deaf ears. Or, ears who just refuse to read fact and take it to heart. The trend is always gonna be to just mindlessly tear James down. I don't get it, but whatever. If the majority were just tearing down your favorite band member (whom you understand because you play the same instrument) I'm sure you'd be just as upset as I am.
Well, not really. I don't think anyone here (or most people here, at least) is actually "mindlessly tearing James down". No one is expecting him to nail every single word/note from a 30+ year career perfectly, but I think there should be room for valid criticism based on real evidence, and there is. And that doesn't mean they're disrespecting James (depending on their word choice, of course).
As others said, on the footage from the first few shows or even the whole first leg of the current tour, it was pretty much impossible to hear that lower octave in that section for BITS. But that, as you say, is past history now. The current discussion is about the heavy use of backing vocal tracks and James's current vocal performance. And, again, there's tangible evidence to look at for discussing these concerns (i.e. Rock in Rio). I don't think pointing out some of his live struggles, which are very real, should be banned from discussion just because those offend certain people. If one of the members and/or some live production choices like relying heavily on backing tracks take away from the band's performance/image, those should at least be discussed freely... in a discussion forum. And this is coming from someone who supports 100% their use of the click track for live shows and also fully supports Mike M as a band member (who is the other member, besides James, who gets the most, if not more, criticism).
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I don't think I'd ever heard the piped in backing vocals this loud. I think I was in denial about JP miming the backing vocals live (always figured he was just that good), but those backing vocals are... intriguing. I noticed in the Iron Maiden broadcast how the mix really emphasized many elements that are usually buried, but this went beyond that.
What's curious is that in one of the Bridges in the Sky choruses JLB chose to sing the low part of the harmony while the tape took care of the high part (https://youtu.be/WFW_oi-xcSc?t=2166). That didn't sound half bad to me, but isn't something I've ever perceived them doing before live.
WOW, I get the debate here, I hear the parts (It's evident at the 39:00 or so mark and for the next 20 seconds or so) and I'm not taking sides*, but as a general proposition, the band as a whole sounds awesome.
(* For the record, I could give a rat's ass about augmentation.)
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I've spent precious time here explaining how the voice works and why it's not his age or any other perceived (real or imagined) flaw any why all these criticisms are unfounded, but my efforts are obviously falling on deaf ears. Or, ears who just refuse to read fact and take it to heart. The trend is always gonna be to just mindlessly tear James down.
No one's denying what you said about bad singing habits he'd accumulated, and I personally haven't went through many TA boots to compare what he's doing now to what he's doing back then, but even if he has corrected some things technically in your professional opinion, he still doesn't sound good to a forum of JLB enjoyers and that's just how it is.
James in 2012-2014 also had his acquired taste timbre, quirks and weird habits that make him unique, and most of us were busy defending him from mindless bashers back then. We recognized 2004-2006 as an upswing in his vocal form from the late 90's and 2011-2014 as an upswing from 2007-2010. You're bringing arguments that he's on an upswing now, but the majority verdict still swings in the other direction, so maybe you have to strengthen your argument with examples, or recognize you might also be biased because you want to enjoy this era of Dream Theater, or whatever.
If the majority were just tearing down your favorite band member (whom you understand because you play the same instrument) I'm sure you'd be just as upset as I am.
I also connect to singers more than instrumentalists. I'm not saying this to meddle into mod business or look down on you or whatever, just as advice because I like your perspective and want to have you around - there's civil discussion rules, but we can't really mandate continued liking of everything Dream Theater. You just have to read through opinions that disagree with you, provided they are stated civilly, and they are. Kevin Moore is the only member of Dream Theater I like more than James, and I had to scroll through an esteemed member of this board (civilly) dissecting "Space-Dye Vest" and arguing about how it shows a kind of a weakness in Kevin's character as a human being :lol it happens!
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Kevin Moore is the only member of Dream Theater I like more than James, and I had to scroll through an esteemed member of this board (civilly) dissecting "Space-Dye Vest" and arguing about how it shows a kind of a weakness in Kevin's character as a human being :lol it happens!
I feel for you! (And I happen to love that song, btw!).
I appreciate your perspective as well. I'm just always perplexed by the level of vitriol I see from the supposed "esteemed members" you speak of who are probably some of the biggest DT megafans in the world (And to the poster who mentioned MM getting it too, yes, I have seen that). It just leaves me bewildered, and a bit sad.
I'm watching the Rio show again on YouTube as we speak. It is in every way triumphant.
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Kevin Moore is the only member of Dream Theater I like more than James, and I had to scroll through an esteemed member of this board (civilly) dissecting "Space-Dye Vest" and arguing about how it shows a kind of a weakness in Kevin's character as a human being :lol it happens!
:blush
Sorry...I didn't actually say he was a weak human being, did I? :sadpanda:
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Kevin Moore is the only member of Dream Theater I like more than James, and I had to scroll through an esteemed member of this board (civilly) dissecting "Space-Dye Vest" and arguing about how it shows a kind of a weakness in Kevin's character as a human being :lol it happens!
I feel for you! (And I happen to love that song, btw!).
I appreciate your perspective as well. I'm just always perplexed by the level of vitriol I see from the supposed "esteemed members" you speak of who are probably some of the biggest DT megafans in the world (And to the poster who mentioned MM getting it too, yes, I have seen that). It just leaves me bewildered, and a bit sad.
I'm watching the Rio show again on YouTube as we speak. It is in every way triumphant.
Vocals too?
I've defended James forever. I've never ever had a problem with his live vocals. Being a guitarist, JP was the sticking point, but my second favourite member has always been James. Love his stage presence, his sound, his look, he's just a badass dude. But currently, his vocals live are just awful. It legit makes me sad. Even in his times of struggle he was still able to command what he needed to do, if that makes sense, he still had power a certain attitude to make it work, even if he couldn't hit the high notes at times. This Rio performance is painful to the ears. Plus he's trying to have the energy to still make it work but it must be so difficult for him. For a band of this caliber and as much as I love the guy though, this performance isn't up to scratch.
He's in the band until the end for me, but as I said before, detuning more would be better than what is happening now. Plus I'm sure they can streamline the set to include more songs with less range in the vocals. I'd much rather have a show with a comfortable and pleasant sounding James with deep cuts and less classics than a set of classics listening to James fail over and over again.
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This Rio performance is painful to the ears.
Well, I'll just have to double down on my "I don't get that at all" take. Not that I haven't heard shows where he has really struggled. I can't disagree with you that those surely exist. But I don't hear that in this Rio performance. I just don't.
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It wasn't perfect, but I actually didn't have a major problem with the Rio performance.
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This Rio performance is painful to the ears.
Well, I'll just have to double down on my "I don't get that at all" take. Not that I haven't heard shows where he has really struggled. I can't disagree with you that those surely exist. But I don't hear that in this Rio performance. I just don't.
Fair enough mate, but I guess I'm not the only one who has said it at least. To each their own. I'm genuinely glad you can enjoy it.
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It wasn't perfect, but I actually didn't have a major problem with the Rio performance.
This is the first real show I've checked from this tour those besides the early videos with the lip syncing. Maybe it's just taken me aback a little, I'm not sure.
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I don't think the soundboard vocals are kind to James, generally. At a show, he comes off as fine most of the time. Other than those first few shows, I think James has been fine on this tour.
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Not that Cade needs support, but I had to click away from Pull Me Under because it made me so sad to hear James struggle.
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I don't think the soundboard vocals are kind to James, generally. At a show, he comes off as fine most of the time. Other than those first few shows, I think James has been fine on this tour.
Just watched Buenos Aires concert on youtube and boom... James actually sounded pretty amazing. Not decent or Ok, it's actually amazing. Considering Rio was a couple days ago I think James could be sick or tired or something else. If I compare two concert vocal wise fairly it's like day and night.
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I don't think the soundboard vocals are kind to James, generally. At a show, he comes off as fine most of the time. Other than those first few shows, I think James has been fine on this tour.
Just watched Buenos Aires concert on youtube and boom... James actually sounded pretty amazing. Not decent or Ok, it's actually amazing. Considering Rio was a couple days ago I think James could be sick or tired or something else. If I compare two concert vocal wise fairly it's like day and night.
Oh cool! I'm ging to watch that tonight!
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To clear it up, I don't think JLB was ever lip synching, even early on in the tour; I just think it was clear that he was letting the backing tracks do the heavy lifting in certain spots.
And the idea that anyone here is mindlessly bashing JLB is too absurd of an assertion to take seriously.
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Vocals too?
Yes! I think he must be working with a vocal coach because, to my ears at least, he has overall pulled back on a lot of the problematic improvising and has reconnected with his breath support. Does this mean he is perfectly perfect at all times? No, in fact the one glaring mistake I could hear on PMU was using his rough effect in his upper register. That's the same exact mistake that got him into a vocal injury to begin with back in 1994. I wish he wouldn't do it, for the health of his light-lyric tenor voice - lighter voices are not meant to push like that. But it's stylistic habits that may lead him into a crash-and-burn scenario. It's not simply blaming his age or whatever. Not saying you did this, but others tend to just write him off as being all done - there's another recent thread in fact where a discussion was taking place about how and why he should be replaced - and I could not with any dignity reply to that part of the discussion, so I ignored it.
I've defended James forever. I've never ever had a problem with his live vocals. Being a guitarist, JP was the sticking point, but my second favourite member has always been James. Love his stage presence, his sound, his look, he's just a badass dude.
I'm glad I'm not the only one with a strong second favorite. Mine is Jordan Rudess. I don't play keyboards but I'm a huge fan of excellent keyboards and I'm actually a DT fan because I heard the Octavarium intro on Score and was immediately blown away to another dimension. To this day that's the holy grail moment in all of their music and I hope to see it played live one day because I will be like the crying lady when I do.
But James' voice got to me soon after. Literally it's the most beautifully nuanced, gorgeous tone of any tenor voice I have ever heard. That coming from one who has worked with opera singers. I know what he is capable of. And that's why I appreciate discussion of what may be going on (which I believe is all about the approach) rather than people just saying, well he's old, over and over again.
It legit makes me sad.
Some moments in the last dvd made me sad. Live clips of The Astonishing make me sad. I do know what you're saying. But, it's habits. He can fix this. He's not just, done.
This Rio performance is painful to the ears. Plus he's trying to have the energy to still make it work but it must be so difficult for him. For a band of this caliber and as much as I love the guy though, this performance isn't up to scratch.
I respectfully disagree that it's "painful to the ears", aside from a few random moments (see my above comment about PMU). I think post-Astonishing, 98% isn't bad.
He's in the band until the end for me
For me as well (obviously). 😎
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No, in fact the one glaring mistake I could hear on PMU was using his rough effect in his upper register. That's the same exact mistake that got him into a vocal injury to begin with back in 1994.
??? No it isn't. The injury was caused by food poisoning that caused violent vomiting, which in turn caused ruptures. This is pretty well documented.
Anyway, that aside, I'll just go back to agreeing with you that it is an thoroughly enjoyable performance. And I can't really speak to PMU. At that point in watching the show, I was distracted by other things going on here and wasn't really paying attention. I'll have to go back and check it out again.
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And the idea that anyone here is mindlessly bashing JLB is too absurd of an assertion to take seriously.
Apologies. I should've waited even longer to reply than I did because obviously my emotions hadn't cooled yet. It was a breaking point. Nothing personal against anyone. I just see a lot of unfounded comments with absurd assertions of their own that are not based in fact.
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And the idea that anyone here is mindlessly bashing JLB is too absurd of an assertion to take seriously.
Apologies. I should've waited even longer to reply than I did because obviously my emotions hadn't cooled yet. It was a breaking point. Nothing personal against anyone. I just see a lot of unfounded comments with absurd assertions of their own that are not based in fact.
All good. I think it is a good thing to remember that this isn't Twitter or FB, which are troll fests with negative nancies, or even the old dt.net :lol. Most of us love to the praise the band, and when we do critique, it is not because we dislike the band or anything like that. Most of us just react to what our ears hear, and how we hear it. Trust me, it's a bummer for me, a fan of nearly 30 years and one who has long said that JLB's voice was one of the things that got me into them right away, to hear James sing the way he currently is, but it is what it is. Three decades of singing the way he does has obviously taken its toll on his voice.
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??? No it isn't. The injury was caused by food poisoning that caused violent vomiting, which in turn caused ruptures. This is pretty well documented.
I'm aware of the ruptures, etc but it's my opinion (I may be 1000% wrong!) that lots of pushing set him up for vocal hemmorages to begin with, and the unfortunate incident of getting sick was just a catalyst for making it happen sooner/all at once. I'm sure this all affects him to this day, sadly. But I think his vocal technique became a lot better after his recovery, probably by necessity.
Anyway, that aside, I'll just go back to agreeing with you that it is an thoroughly enjoyable performance.
It is! 💯
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Not that Cade needs support, but I had to click away from Pull Me Under because it made me so sad to hear James struggle.
I haven't even gotten that far yet...... :|
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I don't think the soundboard vocals are kind to James, generally. At a show, he comes off as fine most of the time. Other than those first few shows, I think James has been fine on this tour.
Just watched Buenos Aires concert on youtube and boom... James actually sounded pretty amazing. Not decent or Ok, it's actually amazing. Considering Rio was a couple days ago I think James could be sick or tired or something else. If I compare two concert vocal wise fairly it's like day and night.
Do you have a link for this Serox? I haven't been able to find what I think you saw.
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Just watched the first 2 songs. Jeez, this is rough. I feel for James.
James' performance gets better after the first song, but yeah The Alien was rough. These things happen. 🤪
6:00 and ES aren't much better. That last section of ES is just painful. I love this band so much but it's getting bad. Regardless of how songs sound, they need to tune down more or try and streamline the song selections even more.
Yup. I watched the whole show and... after around 25 shows, I probably won't go again. That just isn't a level of live performance I'm willing to support. It's so sad :-[ And I'm really sad about it :'(
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Just watched the first 2 songs. Jeez, this is rough. I feel for James.
James' performance gets better after the first song, but yeah The Alien was rough. These things happen. 🤪
6:00 and ES aren't much better. That last section of ES is just painful. I love this band so much but it's getting bad. Regardless of how songs sound, they need to tune down more or try and streamline the song selections even more.
Yup. I watched the whole show and... after around 25 shows, I probably won't go again. That just isn't a level of live performance I'm willing to support. It's so sad :-[ And I'm really sad about it :'(
Yes, it sure is a shame. I've only seen them once but I probably wouldn't go currently.
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To clear it up, I don't think JLB was ever lip synching, even early on in the tour; I just think it was clear that he was letting the backing tracks do the heavy lifting in certain spots.
I don't feel he was lip synching at all either, and I was at the very first show.
Personally, I do not like that he didn't even bother singing the end of The Count of Tuscany. I was awaiting that moment where he would go and sing the ending, I thought he was letting us sing at first, and then he never sang as the backing track sang the entire part. I was pretty upset and it was a bit anti-climatic to get a backing track rather than JLB giving his all for that epic ending.
But also, I was rocking out, singing along to every word, and loved this setlist. I enjoyed the performance because for one, I love the songs. And two, I like the band and the songs enough that my reason for going is to see and hear these songs live. It DOES NOT matter to me if the band is utilizing clicks and backing tracks. I could hear JLB's live voice and the backing tracks. Even though the backing vocals took over and it was hard to tell whether the vocals were JLB or the backing track at certain spots. I will always try and continue to see the band on every tour.
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I don't think the soundboard vocals are kind to James, generally. At a show, he comes off as fine most of the time. Other than those first few shows, I think James has been fine on this tour.
You nailed it! I prefer audience recordings over soundboard anytime. Chaos in Motion dvd is mostly soundboard recordings and they did a major disservice to James sound, especially during Surrounded. It makes him sound dry and tinny. He sounds fine on the audience recordings.
I watched several audience recordings of RIR 2022, and James' tone sounded a lot better. Soundboard recordings isolate the vocals making it sound like they're separate from the rest of the band, and something gets lost.
All that being said, I'm just always happy to see DT whether somebody in the band is having an off night or not. Even with Rush, Geddy had his struggles and changed the way he sang some of the songs. But who cares,.it's Rush!!! They've earned their right to make mistakes or have a rough gig every now and then. Same goes for DT, They've paid their dues and have been through the gauntlet, and they're still playing at a very high level! 💪 :coolio
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ouch... this was just... painful to watch. i feel for James but i simply can't enjoy this anymore...
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I don't think the soundboard vocals are kind to James, generally. At a show, he comes off as fine most of the time. Other than those first few shows, I think James has been fine on this tour.
Just watched Buenos Aires concert on youtube and boom... James actually sounded pretty amazing. Not decent or Ok, it's actually amazing. Considering Rio was a couple days ago I think James could be sick or tired or something else. If I compare two concert vocal wise fairly it's like day and night.
Do you have a link for this Serox? I haven't been able to find what I think you saw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxEPi6bqVyE
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ouch... this was just... painful to watch. i feel for James but i simply can't enjoy this anymore...
While I'm not happy with the situation, I'm glad others share the same opinions. I thought I was going a bit mad.
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Thanks for sharing the Buenos Aires show. Indeed that's a pretty solid performance by James. Probably the best one i've seen from this tour.
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I don't think the soundboard vocals are kind to James, generally. At a show, he comes off as fine most of the time. Other than those first few shows, I think James has been fine on this tour.
Just watched Buenos Aires concert on youtube and boom... James actually sounded pretty amazing. Not decent or Ok, it's actually amazing. Considering Rio was a couple days ago I think James could be sick or tired or something else. If I compare two concert vocal wise fairly it's like day and night.
Do you have a link for this Serox? I haven't been able to find what I think you saw.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxEPi6bqVyE
WTF is this crossing to in moments of this video? Maybe I'm just tripping hard.
James sounds a little better here. Still not great but a tad better.
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Not that Cade needs support, but I had to click away from Pull Me Under because it made me so sad to hear James struggle.
I haven't even gotten that far yet...... :|
Fuck, spelled your name wrong, pal. Sorry.
Also, I only watched the clip of Count of Tuscany and Pull Me Under. I'm not really interested in the whole show. For me, and this is only for me, I don't think anyone should feel the same and I'm not trying to persuade anyone...I think the entire band is just a shadow of their former selves live. Well, at least on video. They're still a good time in person, but yeah. No more concert videos for this guy.
I really wish they could make a better living from just the studio. More studio recordings would be great.
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I think the entire band is just a shadow of their former selves live.
I'm legitimately interested in why you think that. I know you're not trying to convince anyone, but coming from a very opposite opinion I would love to understand. (This is also nothing to do with the whole James' voice discussion, nor am I trying to start an argument).
Disclaimer, I was not there yet in the old old days of glory that I hear so much about, but a lot of fans can't seem to let those days go - to the point that they cannot enjoy the present era. I have watched many old era concerts and in my opinion nothing back then (ie. before Score) was anything remotely close to the level of polished production that they achieve today. Was it the music itself that was more beloved? Or the general lack of glitter and polish that everyone seems to hate from the present day (which, as a present day fan, I enjoy)? I appreciate that we may just have differing opinions which is fine, we can agree to disagree, but it's something I see so often that I just have to wonder about it. Maybe suggest an old concert that would illustrate this for me?
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I'm legitimately interested in why you think that.
Well, the Hef answer would be, "Because I'm old, and I do."
The longer answer is, primarily because I grew up in a time when rock concerts were mildly threatening, hedonistic celebrations. The invisible wall between audience and band was routinely shattered. I once witnessed Ted Nugent pull out a bow and start shooting speakers with arrows :lol And while DT have never completely been that kind of band, their younger selves did approach concerts with more of a high-wire act kind of joy (reference Live Scenes from New York, and Live at Budokan).
I just find the videos of modern DT a bit too choreographed and journeyman-like. It's all very polished and professional, of course, with an emphasis on precisely recreating the album performances, but where's the danger in that. When you personally see them live, the volume and being immersed in the crowd really helps draw you into the performance, so like I said, they're a good time in person.
:dunno:
Tastes, amirite?
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WTF is this crossing to in moments of this video? Maybe I'm just tripping hard.
No, you're not. There were three of those random interruptions during The Alien alone. I assume it's the uploader/production company demanding that we know... what the fuck ever. I'm giving this a pass (up the :censored)
It's a shame because the footage was quite good.
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I think the entire band is just a shadow of their former selves live.
I'm legitimately interested in why you think that. I know you're not trying to convince anyone, but coming from a very opposite opinion I would love to understand. (This is also nothing to do with the whole James' voice discussion, nor am I trying to start an argument).
Disclaimer, I was not there yet in the old old days of glory that I hear so much about, but a lot of fans can't seem to let those days go - to the point that they cannot enjoy the present era. I have watched many old era concerts and in my opinion nothing back then (ie. before Score) was anything remotely close to the level of polished production that they achieve today. Was it the music itself that was more beloved? Or the general lack of glitter and polish that everyone seems to hate from the present day (which, as a present day fan, I enjoy)? I appreciate that we may just have differing opinions which is fine, we can agree to disagree, but it's something I see so often that I just have to wonder about it. Maybe suggest an old concert that would illustrate this for me?
I have thought this same thing. And am in agreement about liking the polished live shows. Of course, I would love a wilder more spontaneous show as well. Just like people, things are different. I appreciate that things don't remain the same and am glad there has been a variety. I am highly entertained by DT's current live performances, as well as other bands that do it different, have worse vocals, production..or better. It is what it is I am grateful for all of it. It wasn't that long ago that we had NO concerts - and that is the worst kind of all.
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WTF is this crossing to in moments of this video? Maybe I'm just tripping hard.
No, you're not. There were three of those random interruptions during The Alien alone. I assume it's the uploader/production company demanding that we know... what the fuck ever. I'm giving this a pass (up the :censored)
It's a shame because the footage was quite good.
On the description says (translation to English):
Surprise in several minutes due to those who stole the show and sell it.
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I watched a bit and I hate to say it but I found it well below acceptable for me to enjoy it.
I am not blind Labrie hater and have recently made posts that I really enjoy the Live In Berlin release. But for Rio I was watching Alien and skimmed through some other songs and I found it really rough. While I agree the sound quality doesn't do him any favours, that is most certainly not the main issue for me.
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Not that Cade needs support, but I had to click away from Pull Me Under because it made me so sad to hear James struggle.
I haven't even gotten that far yet...... :|
Fuck, spelled your name wrong, pal. Sorry.
Also, I only watched the clip of Count of Tuscany and Pull Me Under. I'm not really interested in the whole show. For me, and this is only for me, I don't think anyone should feel the same and I'm not trying to persuade anyone...I think the entire band is just a shadow of their former selves live. Well, at least on video. They're still a good time in person, but yeah. No more concert videos for this guy.
I really wish they could make a better living from just the studio. More studio recordings would be great.
All good Gregg.
The bolded part I agree with and thought the same.
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All good Gregg.
You whiffed on a ripe opportunity to call me Craig! :lol
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I dunno, their live shows from the Octavarium tour onwards have been consistently great. Their lighting and stage production is the best its ever been on AVFTTOTW. They are definitely carrying the WWRD torch, even with the screens and lighting. That's a good thing.
I completely disagree that DT is just a shadow of their former selves. They're still innovative and staying current, and showing no sigs of slowing down musically. I think they have a lot left to offer and they love what they do. :coolio
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I once witnessed Ted Nugent pull out a bow and start shooting speakers with arrows
:omg:
..Now of course you have me imagining what it'd be like to see James whip out a bow and arrows onstage... :o I think that'd break my brain...
Tastes, amirite?
Right??
I am grateful for all of it. It wasn't that long ago that we had NO concerts - and that is the worst kind of all.
Well said!!! 💯
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All good Gregg.
You whiffed on a ripe opportunity to call me Craig! :lol
I did think about it, not gonna lie! ;D
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Not that Cade needs support, but I had to click away from Pull Me Under because it made me so sad to hear James struggle.
I finally finished watching the show. TCOT was pretty decent. Although, on the chorus I don't understand why James changes the melody to go higher when he's already straining. The band were on point for this song. The ending section though James was very good. Definitely the register he's need to try and stay in now. More songs like this need to be pulled out. Not sure what songs if any there are that are worthy, but there has to be some that can be represented more live.
PMU, I too turned it off three quarters of the way through. I know it's PMU, but why keep playing this song? It needs to be retired immediately! James shouldn't be made to try and sing this anymore, Jesus!
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Although, on the chorus I don't understand why James changes the melody to go higher when he's already straining.
Because the issue that it sounds like he's having is coordination between the registers through the passagio (zone of passage between chest voice and head voice). When there are registration issues like this, which are 100% technique-related and fixable, the voice has facility in the lower end as well as, surprisingly, ease at the tippity-top. But it's that middle zone which is the sticking point, literally. A singer with this problem 9 times out of 10 has gotten there because of bad habits, usually from bringing "weight" up from the chest voice into head voice improperly. It leads to muscular imbalances where even a great singer can lose touch with the fundamentals of blending the registers, which is the foundation of healthy singing technique. I still say this happened during the Astonishing and he needs to get with a good technical teacher and work it out, for the sake of his vocal health and the longevity of his career.
I know he's a smart singer and is aware of this stuff. I can only hope that he's working on it and what we're seeing is a work in progress on his way back to full vocal facility.
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I know it's PMU, but why keep playing this song? It needs to be retired immediately!
I agree. It's their most played song live, there's no need to keep including it in setlists at this point. And while they're at it, just retire TSCO and AIA too :lol
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Just food for thought: I saw Billy Idol live last Thursday and he played Rock in Rio Friday.
REMARKABLE difference in performance in both shows. Many people who watched the RiR stream found him to be suffering through the performance, greatly out of tune in many songs. But on Thursday he was GREAT, on point, happy, in tune, it was a night and day difference (an impression also shared by a friend who attended the São Paulo concert with me).
I don't know if there were technical issues in RiR that hampered the performance of both Billy and JLB, or something, but I figured I'd chip in with this impression.
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Although, on the chorus I don't understand why James changes the melody to go higher when he's already straining.
Because the issue that it sounds like he's having is coordination between the registers through the passagio (zone of passage between chest voice and head voice). When there are registration issues like this, which are 100% technique-related and fixable, the voice has facility in the lower end as well as, surprisingly, ease at the tippity-top. But it's that middle zone which is the sticking point, literally. A singer with this problem 9 times out of 10 has gotten there because of bad habits, usually from bringing "weight" up from the chest voice into head voice improperly. It leads to muscular imbalances where even a great singer can lose touch with the fundamentals of blending the registers, which is the foundation of healthy singing technique. I still say this happened during the Astonishing and he needs to get with a good technical teacher and work it out, for the sake of his vocal health and the longevity of his career.
I know he's a smart singer and is aware of this stuff. I can only hope that he's working on it and what we're seeing is a work in progress on his way back to full vocal facility.
If all these things you speak of is easy enough to fix due to technique, why wouldn't James do something about it? I mean, he must know in himself up there that he's struggling and the band could tell too, so hopefully he is doing something behind the scenes because such an integral part of the band and an amazing singer he is, he doesn't deserve to go down and slowly end his career with these sorts of performances.
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Well, I'm pretty stoked at how great he sounds giving "these sorts of performances," so I'm perfectly fine eventually ending his career sounding this great.
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I have to also point out the vocal department's performance issues. If John Petrucci or Rudess missed this many notes the fan base would go ape shit. The Rock in Rio show was likely no better or worse than any other on the tour.
I am sympathetic toward the struggle regarding the old songs, but the DT15 songs? Didn't he write the melodies? We should be hearing the Alien with near perfect pitch, pronunciation and time. The friggen song barely has any notes for him to sing. It's just very frustrating how the issues pervade every live performance. He sounds like he is out of breath and not able to do the basic job. Unfortunately it's not going to get better. The studio stuff is totally fine but live is a musical wreck and it really sticks out.
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Agreed. I would write the Rio show off as maybe just one bad performance or attribute it to a venue issue, but I have seen too many other clips from the tour this year that weren't good.
And to be fair, a voice is a lot different than a musical instrument, and JLB has giving his vocal chords a good thrashing over the years, so it is not at all surprising that his performances have declined. I have to think that anyone not hearing it either doesn't want to hear it or has a really bad case of tinnitus. :P
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Well, I'm pretty stoked at how great he sounds giving "these sorts of performances," so I'm perfectly fine eventually ending his career sounding this great.
He sounds great on PMU?
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I have to also point out the vocal department's performance issues. If John Petrucci or Rudess missed this many notes the fan base would go ape shit. The Rock in Rio show was likely no better or worse than any other on the tour.
I am sympathetic toward the struggle regarding the old songs, but the DT15 songs? Didn't he write the melodies? We should be hearing the Alien with near perfect pitch, pronunciation and time. The friggen song barely has any notes for him to sing. It's just very frustrating how the issues pervade every live performance. He sounds like he is out of breath and not able to do the basic job. Unfortunately it's not going to get better. The studio stuff is totally fine but live is a musical wreck and it really sticks out.
Agree with this post.
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Well, I'm pretty stoked at how great he sounds giving "these sorts of performances," so I'm perfectly fine eventually ending his career sounding this great.
He sounds great on PMU?
Well, as I said several posts above, I can't really comment on TCOT or PMU, as those were just background while I was doing other things. So, for now, now comment.
But the rest of the concert sounded pretty good, notwithstanding that apparently five people on the Internet seem to insist otherwise for some reason.
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Check out PMU again then get back to the five of us, that would be great. We would be interested in your assessment.
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If all these things you speak of is easy enough to fix due to technique, why wouldn't James do something about it?
It's definitely not easy, it's practically a rebuilding of one's technique from the ground up. It takes time, patience, and discipline. I'm sure he is doing something about it, because while I don't always hear perfection, I do hear an improvement over the pre-pandemic era live shows.
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Not that Cade needs support, but I had to click away from Pull Me Under because it made me so sad to hear James struggle.
I finally finished watching the show. TCOT was pretty decent. Although, on the chorus I don't understand why James changes the melody to go higher when he's already straining. The band were on point for this song. The ending section though James was very good. Definitely the register he's need to try and stay in now. More songs like this need to be pulled out. Not sure what songs if any there are that are worthy, but there has to be some that can be represented more live.
PMU, I too turned it off three quarters of the way through. I know it's PMU, but why keep playing this song? It needs to be retired immediately! James shouldn't be made to try and sing this anymore, Jesus!
This is what mystifies me as well. It's as if he's not self aware of how he sounds live and of what his current capabilities are.
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It's as if he's not self aware of how he sounds live and of what his current capabilities are.
And if that is the case, then this is exactly what a coach can help him with!
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It's as if he's not self aware of how he sounds live and of what his current capabilities are.
And if that is the case, then this is exactly what a coach can help him with!
What coach and when can we expect to hear the improvement resulting from all this alleged coaching?
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It's as if he's not self aware of how he sounds live and of what his current capabilities are.
And if that is the case, then this is exactly what a coach can help him with!
What coach and when can we expect to hear the improvement resulting from all this alleged coaching?
My point is that his issues are not hopeless. Yet many of you seem to just be set on the idea that it is and that he's just "old" and finished. Ok, have it your way. I've tried to refute this with facts about the voice but I'm obviously wasting my time. Your minds are made up. And that's ok, so is mine. As I respect all of you and don't want to make enemies, I'm done trying to explain. I'm obviously not around singers so I may as well be speaking another language.
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I think James has been remarkably consistent over the last 15 years, which is to say he'd been extremely inconsistent. He's had generally good tours and not so good ones, and good shows and not so good shows. I actually don't think he's getting worse...or better. He just is.
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Funny, just heard PMU in RiR. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and tastes, so I don't want to invalidate other posters' complaints and criticisms, but JLB's performance didn't alarm me. Yes, there are imperfect spots, but I'd say he delivers overall. I'm of the camp that they don't necessarily need to include that song in their setlists because of how high it goes and how much it must strain a singer (I've tried it, and it does), but... isn't it a treat that they played it? I'd be psyched if I was there!
I might be still taken with the whole mojo of "we had no concerts for so long, there was a chance they could've never started happening again, the fact that this is happening is a miracle", so this isn't any objective opinion or anything. Just a sentiment.
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Funny, just heard PMU in RiR. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and tastes, so I don't want to invalidate other posters' complaints and criticisms, but JLB's performance didn't alarm me. Yes, there are imperfect spots, but I'd say he delivers overall. I'm of the camp that they don't necessarily need to include that song in their setlists because of how high it goes and how much it must strain a singer (I've tried it, and it does), but... isn't it a treat that they played it? I'd be psyched if I was there!
I got through the RiR stream without really worrying about James. Sounded ok to me.
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I got through the RiR stream without really worrying about James. Sounded ok to me.
Someone recently mentioned a Buenos Aires show from around the same time, and a link was posted but now I can't find it. It's supposed to be an even better performance. I found only one recent YouTube and it was unwatchable (weird commercials...kinda creepy). Does anyone have a better link? I'd love to see it. Thanks in advance.
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I got through the RiR stream without really worrying about James. Sounded ok to me.
Someone recently mentioned a Buenos Aires show from around the same time, and a link was posted but now I can't find it. It's supposed to be an even better performance. I found only one recent YouTube and it was unwatchable (weird commercials...kinda creepy). Does anyone have a better link? I'd love to see it. Thanks in advance.
Sounds like the same one that was posted here anyway.
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It's as if he's not self aware of how he sounds live and of what his current capabilities are.
And if that is the case, then this is exactly what a coach can help him with!
What coach and when can we expect to hear the improvement resulting from all this alleged coaching?
My point is that his issues are not hopeless. Yet many of you seem to just be set on the idea that it is and that he's just "old" and finished. Ok, have it your way. I've tried to refute this with facts about the voice but I'm obviously wasting my time. Your minds are made up. And that's ok, so is mine. As I respect all of you and don't want to make enemies, I'm done trying to explain. I'm obviously not around singers so I may as well be speaking another language.
I don't think you should be worried about making enemies. I'm no expert on voices and vocal coaches. It may work, but I thought he was being coached over the last years or something? I could be wrong, but I felt like he was actively working on his singing.
I actually don't think he's getting worse...or better. He just is.
Kind of how I feel. There's lots of singers out there struggling with much easier songs to sing. The music does him no favors here. He's likely doing the best he can and this isn't new and isn't changing.
I've also said before and will say again, my opinion is that DT is not going to be playing those I&W songs too often anymore and some maybe never again. PMU is their biggest hit, I don't expect that to be shelved though.
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Funny, just heard PMU in RiR. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and tastes, so I don't want to invalidate other posters' complaints and criticisms, but JLB's performance didn't alarm me. Yes, there are imperfect spots, but I'd say he delivers overall. I'm of the camp that they don't necessarily need to include that song in their setlists because of how high it goes and how much it must strain a singer (I've tried it, and it does), but... isn't it a treat that they played it? I'd be psyched if I was there!
I might be still taken with the whole mojo of "we had no concerts for so long, there was a chance they could've never started happening again, the fact that this is happening is a miracle", so this isn't any objective opinion or anything. Just a sentiment.
Man, I can't comprehend this at all, but I'm glad people are still enjoying his singing in a live setting.
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Funny, just heard PMU in RiR. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and tastes, so I don't want to invalidate other posters' complaints and criticisms, but JLB's performance didn't alarm me. Yes, there are imperfect spots, but I'd say he delivers overall. I'm of the camp that they don't necessarily need to include that song in their setlists because of how high it goes and how much it must strain a singer (I've tried it, and it does), but... isn't it a treat that they played it? I'd be psyched if I was there!
I might be still taken with the whole mojo of "we had no concerts for so long, there was a chance they could've never started happening again, the fact that this is happening is a miracle", so this isn't any objective opinion or anything. Just a sentiment.
Man, I can't comprehend this at all, but I'm glad people are still enjoying his singing in a live setting.
Agreed. I just watched PMU from RiR again to see if I am being too critical and I am not. I think that people are big fans and willing to overlook, which is great, if you can do that. Ironically the first note of the song he missed...and it did not get any better from there. The pronunciation is also just all over the place. I am not going to bother pointing out every part that is off but I cannot fathom how anyone could objectively believe the goods were 'delivered.'
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Funny, just heard PMU in RiR. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and tastes, so I don't want to invalidate other posters' complaints and criticisms, but JLB's performance didn't alarm me. Yes, there are imperfect spots, but I'd say he delivers overall. I'm of the camp that they don't necessarily need to include that song in their setlists because of how high it goes and how much it must strain a singer (I've tried it, and it does), but... isn't it a treat that they played it? I'd be psyched if I was there!
I might be still taken with the whole mojo of "we had no concerts for so long, there was a chance they could've never started happening again, the fact that this is happening is a miracle", so this isn't any objective opinion or anything. Just a sentiment.
Man, I can't comprehend this at all, but I'm glad people are still enjoying his singing in a live setting.
Agreed. I just watched PMU from RiR again to see if I am being too critical and I am not. I think that people are big fans and willing to overlook, which is great, if you can do that. Ironically the first note of the song he missed...and it did not get any better from there. The pronunciation is also just all over the place. I am not going to bother pointing out every part that is off but I cannot fathom how anyone could objectively believe the goods were 'delivered.'
No offence to anyone and yes, people's dedication to the band is great, but sometimes people need to take their fanboy goggles off and see things for what it is. I bet if this sort of vocal performance was from another band they didn't care for, the singer would be getting roasted.
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Funny, just heard PMU in RiR. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and tastes, so I don't want to invalidate other posters' complaints and criticisms, but JLB's performance didn't alarm me. Yes, there are imperfect spots, but I'd say he delivers overall. I'm of the camp that they don't necessarily need to include that song in their setlists because of how high it goes and how much it must strain a singer (I've tried it, and it does), but... isn't it a treat that they played it? I'd be psyched if I was there!
I might be still taken with the whole mojo of "we had no concerts for so long, there was a chance they could've never started happening again, the fact that this is happening is a miracle", so this isn't any objective opinion or anything. Just a sentiment.
Man, I can't comprehend this at all, but I'm glad people are still enjoying his singing in a live setting.
Enjoying it in the live setting when you are actually there is often different from watching a clip on YT or a concert video. James has reached the similar point Geddy Lee did for me on the last few Rush tours where I enjoyed the heck out of the shows when I went to them, but when seeing the concert video or a clip, the decline in overall singing quality was hard to overlook. I never watch the concert DVDs from the last three Rush tours for that reason, and the same applies to recent DT live stuff. But when you are there, it's easy to get lost in the excitement of the live show to where you just enjoy it and any issues you either don't notice or don't care about in the moment.
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Oh yeah, totally different beast on DVD/Youtube to actually being there.
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It's way too loud at a DT concert to hear the intricacies in JLB's voice. I think they are overly loud for this reason, because there's really no reason that their concerts are so loud for a theater setting. I also think they are very negative towards people taking video at their shows for this reason as well. You don't notice his struggles as much live as you do on video.
But hey, people love Motley Crue and Guns n Roses too. I think people can over look his struggles and not be a fan boy. (I am admittingly a DT fan boy though)
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It's way too loud at a DT concert to hear the intricacies in JLB's voice. I think they are overly loud for this reason, because there's really no reason that their concerts are so loud for a theater setting. I also think they are very negative towards people taking video at their shows for this reason as well. You don't notice his struggles as much live as you do on video.
But hey, people love Motley Crue and Guns n Roses too. I think people can over look his struggles and not be a fan boy. (I am admittingly a DT fan boy though)
Overlooking is one thing, saying it's a great performance or that he delivers the goods is another.
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R40 is UNLISTENABLE thanks to Geddy.
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Yeah, the last couple of Rush DVD's were not good. It's a shame as there's always some gems in the setlist. Geddy just couldn't quite do them justice at the end.
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Funny, just heard PMU in RiR. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and tastes, so I don't want to invalidate other posters' complaints and criticisms, but JLB's performance didn't alarm me. Yes, there are imperfect spots, but I'd say he delivers overall. I'm of the camp that they don't necessarily need to include that song in their setlists because of how high it goes and how much it must strain a singer (I've tried it, and it does), but... isn't it a treat that they played it? I'd be psyched if I was there!
I might be still taken with the whole mojo of "we had no concerts for so long, there was a chance they could've never started happening again, the fact that this is happening is a miracle", so this isn't any objective opinion or anything. Just a sentiment.
Man, I can't comprehend this at all, but I'm glad people are still enjoying his singing in a live setting.
Agreed. I just watched PMU from RiR again to see if I am being too critical and I am not. I think that people are big fans and willing to overlook, which is great, if you can do that. Ironically the first note of the song he missed...and it did not get any better from there. The pronunciation is also just all over the place. I am not going to bother pointing out every part that is off but I cannot fathom how anyone could objectively believe the goods were 'delivered.'
No offence to anyone and yes, people's dedication to the band is great, but sometimes people need to take their fanboy goggles off and see things for what it is. I bet if this sort of vocal performance was from another band they didn't care for, the singer would be getting roasted.
I consider myself a big DT fanboy, have been for 13-ish+ years, and I still agree with what both of you're saying. He's struggling to sing well live, there's no way around that. And because I love this band so much, I'd honestly prefer to see someone else sing for them than have their performances suffer because of this. Again, no disrespect meant to James at all. I just feel something needs to change to infuse new life to this band (just like the Portnoy/Mangini change did over a decade ago).
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Funny, just heard PMU in RiR. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and tastes, so I don't want to invalidate other posters' complaints and criticisms, but JLB's performance didn't alarm me. Yes, there are imperfect spots, but I'd say he delivers overall. I'm of the camp that they don't necessarily need to include that song in their setlists because of how high it goes and how much it must strain a singer (I've tried it, and it does), but... isn't it a treat that they played it? I'd be psyched if I was there!
I might be still taken with the whole mojo of "we had no concerts for so long, there was a chance they could've never started happening again, the fact that this is happening is a miracle", so this isn't any objective opinion or anything. Just a sentiment.
Man, I can't comprehend this at all, but I'm glad people are still enjoying his singing in a live setting.
Agreed. I just watched PMU from RiR again to see if I am being too critical and I am not. I think that people are big fans and willing to overlook, which is great, if you can do that. Ironically the first note of the song he missed...and it did not get any better from there. The pronunciation is also just all over the place. I am not going to bother pointing out every part that is off but I cannot fathom how anyone could objectively believe the goods were 'delivered.'
No offence to anyone and yes, people's dedication to the band is great, but sometimes people need to take their fanboy goggles off and see things for what it is. I bet if this sort of vocal performance was from another band they didn't care for, the singer would be getting roasted.
I consider myself a big DT fanboy, have been for 13-ish+ years, and I still agree with what both of you're saying. He's struggling to sing well live, there's no way around that. And because I love this band so much, I'd honestly prefer to see someone else sing for them than have their performances suffer because of this. Again, no disrespect meant to James at all. I just feel something needs to change to infuse new life to this band (just like the Portnoy/Mangini change did over a decade ago).
As critical as I am, I'm not sure I'd prefer that personally. I'd really rather them pigeon hole their sets, cuts the old classics and detune some more.
However, I do think a different singer nailing some of the classics would breathe new like into the band also but I can't see JP booting him.
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The issue has affected the new songs too, though.
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The issue has affected the new songs too, though.
This is true. Even Invisible Monster you could see him really trying hard just to get the notes in that song.
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It's way too loud at a DT concert to hear the intricacies in JLB's voice. I think they are overly loud for this reason, because there's really no reason that their concerts are so loud for a theater setting. I also think they are very negative towards people taking video at their shows for this reason as well. You don't notice his struggles as much live as you do on video.
But hey, people love Motley Crue and Guns n Roses too. I think people can over look his struggles and not be a fan boy. (I am admittingly a DT fan boy though)
Overlooking is one thing, saying it's a great performance or that he delivers the goods is another.
This is how I feel.
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R40 is UNLISTENABLE thanks to Geddy.
This is sadly true as well. And it was such a great setlist!
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Funny, just heard PMU in RiR. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and tastes, so I don't want to invalidate other posters' complaints and criticisms, but JLB's performance didn't alarm me. Yes, there are imperfect spots, but I'd say he delivers overall. I'm of the camp that they don't necessarily need to include that song in their setlists because of how high it goes and how much it must strain a singer (I've tried it, and it does), but... isn't it a treat that they played it? I'd be psyched if I was there!
I might be still taken with the whole mojo of "we had no concerts for so long, there was a chance they could've never started happening again, the fact that this is happening is a miracle", so this isn't any objective opinion or anything. Just a sentiment.
Man, I can't comprehend this at all, but I'm glad people are still enjoying his singing in a live setting.
Agreed. I just watched PMU from RiR again to see if I am being too critical and I am not. I think that people are big fans and willing to overlook, which is great, if you can do that. Ironically the first note of the song he missed...and it did not get any better from there. The pronunciation is also just all over the place. I am not going to bother pointing out every part that is off but I cannot fathom how anyone could objectively believe the goods were 'delivered.'
No offence to anyone and yes, people's dedication to the band is great, but sometimes people need to take their fanboy goggles off and see things for what it is. I bet if this sort of vocal performance was from another band they didn't care for, the singer would be getting roasted.
I consider myself a big DT fanboy, have been for 13-ish+ years, and I still agree with what both of you're saying. He's struggling to sing well live, there's no way around that. And because I love this band so much, I'd honestly prefer to see someone else sing for them than have their performances suffer because of this. Again, no disrespect meant to James at all. I just feel something needs to change to infuse new life to this band (just like the Portnoy/Mangini change did over a decade ago).
As critical as I am, I'm not sure I'd prefer that personally. I'd really rather them pigeon hole their sets, cuts the old classics and detune some more.
However, I do think a different singer nailing some of the classics would breathe new like into the band also but I can't see JP booting him.
I'm with you here as well. James is our guy, and I'll take him with his current capabilities over a new singer. Let's just stop pretending his current capabilities are something they're not, that's all.
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No offence to anyone and yes, people's dedication to the band is great, but sometimes people need to take their fanboy goggles off and see things for what it is. I bet if this sort of vocal performance was from another band they didn't care for, the singer would be getting roasted.
Well, I think it is offensive to accuse anyone who doesn't agree with you as simply having "fanboy goggles." Pretty sure Cram, for example, doesn't lap up everything the band does, but still really enjoyed this performance.
Let's just stop pretending his current capabilities are something they're not, that's all.
I haven't seen anyone in this thread doing that.
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No offence to anyone and yes, people's dedication to the band is great, but sometimes people need to take their fanboy goggles off and see things for what it is. I bet if this sort of vocal performance was from another band they didn't care for, the singer would be getting roasted.
Well, I think it is offensive to accuse anyone who doesn't agree with you as simply having "fanboy goggles." Pretty sure Cram, for example, doesn't lap up everything the band does, but still really enjoyed this performance.
Let's just stop pretending his current capabilities are something they're not, that's all.
I haven't seen anyone in this thread doing that.
Boss, I apologise to you as yes, you are clearly getting offended by everything I say, but as mentioned before by others, both sides of the coin should be discussed, not just positive. I'm certainly not going out of my way to be a dickhead to stir shit up on purpose, I go to work for that, and I love the band as much as anyone else. I still said also, I'd take James warts and all over another singer, couldn't imagine the band without him, so I too have had my fanboy moments. Although if DT started covering El Dorado live...........then we'd have to talk. ;D
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Funny, just heard PMU in RiR. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and tastes, so I don't want to invalidate other posters' complaints and criticisms, but JLB's performance didn't alarm me. Yes, there are imperfect spots, but I'd say he delivers overall. I'm of the camp that they don't necessarily need to include that song in their setlists because of how high it goes and how much it must strain a singer (I've tried it, and it does), but... isn't it a treat that they played it? I'd be psyched if I was there!
I might be still taken with the whole mojo of "we had no concerts for so long, there was a chance they could've never started happening again, the fact that this is happening is a miracle", so this isn't any objective opinion or anything. Just a sentiment.
Man, I can't comprehend this at all, but I'm glad people are still enjoying his singing in a live setting.
Agreed. I just watched PMU from RiR again to see if I am being too critical and I am not. I think that people are big fans and willing to overlook, which is great, if you can do that. Ironically the first note of the song he missed...and it did not get any better from there. The pronunciation is also just all over the place. I am not going to bother pointing out every part that is off but I cannot fathom how anyone could objectively believe the goods were 'delivered.'
No offence to anyone and yes, people's dedication to the band is great, but sometimes people need to take their fanboy goggles off and see things for what it is. I bet if this sort of vocal performance was from another band they didn't care for, the singer would be getting roasted.
I have met and talked to people who do like Dream Theater and say things like..."Dream Theater does not need a vocalist" and also, "I would listen to Dream Theater if they had a different singer."
JLB has been getting flak from casual listeners since day one. My friends mom can't stand JLB at all, she doesn't like how his tone sounds, which she says is too nasally and whiny sounding. Also, the same friend likes Dream Theater as well, and he also told me, "JLB is not a very good singer."
I agree, but I do enjoy his tone, especially his softer, warmer tone. JLB has always struggled live, and he is not consistent at all with his performances. Yet, I still enjoy hearing him sing his live vocals, and is one reason for me being more upset about him not singing the end of TCOT.
I will also say that the food poisoning incident really affected his voice, it got so bad it effected his entire vocal range. He also had to make his "Path of Division" at this time. To either halt DT from any shows until he healed, or sacrifice his vocals. And we know what he decided and that I feel is why he continues to struggle with singing those early songs, and with having such inconsistent live performances, where it's a gamble which nights he will be amazing, good, or just plain bad.
I will always continue to try and see Dream Theater, and can only hope JLB has a good night. Of the times I have seen him, he has been amazing on vocals. I've heard many bands that have had bad live vocals, yet people didn't care, people were rocking out regardless of whether the vocals were note for note like the studio album or not. One band that is in a similar situation is Avenged Sevenfold, I enjoy seeing them live regardless if M. Shadows vocals sound like snot.
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Eh, the "I would listen to Dream Theater if they had a different singer" crowd means nothing. That is their problem, not the band's. We could easily argue that many fans might not be fans if JLB wasn't the singer (it is unlikely that their style would have drawn me in back in 1993 with a different singer).
Regardless of JLB's live struggles, in the past or currently, he is one of the great rock singers, and vital to their success. He made those vocal melodies soar on I&W and Scenes, their two most iconic records.
So yeah, the anti-JLB crowd can kiss my ass.
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Regardless of JLB's live struggles, in the past or currently, he is one of the great rock singers, and vital to their success. He made those vocal melodies soar on I&W and Scenes, their two most iconic records.
I agree. And his vocals are amazing on The Human Equation and his solo albums. I actually bought the Roswlell Six - Terra Incognita albums he was a guest on specifically for his vocal contributions. I was really bummed when he cancelled his ProgPower appearance as I really wanted to hear the Static Impulse and Impermanent Resonance songs live.
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Funny, just heard PMU in RiR. Everyone's entitled to their opinion and tastes, so I don't want to invalidate other posters' complaints and criticisms, but JLB's performance didn't alarm me. Yes, there are imperfect spots, but I'd say he delivers overall. I'm of the camp that they don't necessarily need to include that song in their setlists because of how high it goes and how much it must strain a singer (I've tried it, and it does), but... isn't it a treat that they played it? I'd be psyched if I was there!
I might be still taken with the whole mojo of "we had no concerts for so long, there was a chance they could've never started happening again, the fact that this is happening is a miracle", so this isn't any objective opinion or anything. Just a sentiment.
Man, I can't comprehend this at all, but I'm glad people are still enjoying his singing in a live setting.
Agreed. I just watched PMU from RiR again to see if I am being too critical and I am not. I think that people are big fans and willing to overlook, which is great, if you can do that. Ironically the first note of the song he missed...and it did not get any better from there. The pronunciation is also just all over the place. I am not going to bother pointing out every part that is off but I cannot fathom how anyone could objectively believe the goods were 'delivered.'
No offence to anyone and yes, people's dedication to the band is great, but sometimes people need to take their fanboy goggles off and see things for what it is. I bet if this sort of vocal performance was from another band they didn't care for, the singer would be getting roasted.
I have met and talked to people who do like Dream Theater and say things like..."Dream Theater does not need a vocalist" and also, "I would listen to Dream Theater if they had a different singer."
JLB has been getting flak from casual listeners since day one. My friends mom can't stand JLB at all, she doesn't like how his tone sounds, which she says is too nasally and whiny sounding. Also, the same friend likes Dream Theater as well, and he also told me, "JLB is not a very good singer."
I agree, but I do enjoy his tone, especially his softer, warmer tone. JLB has always struggled live, and he is not consistent at all with his performances. Yet, I still enjoy hearing him sing his live vocals, and is one reason for me being more upset about him not singing the end of TCOT.
I will also say that the food poisoning incident really affected his voice, it got so bad it effected his entire vocal range. He also had to make his "Path of Division" at this time. To either halt DT from any shows until he healed, or sacrifice his vocals. And we know what he decided and that I feel is why he continues to struggle with singing those early songs, and with having such inconsistent live performances, where it's a gamble which nights he will be amazing, good, or just plain bad.
I will always continue to try and see Dream Theater, and can only hope JLB has a good night. Of the times I have seen him, he has been amazing on vocals. I've heard many bands that have had bad live vocals, yet people didn't care, people were rocking out regardless of whether the vocals were note for note like the studio album or not. One band that is in a similar situation is Avenged Sevenfold, I enjoy seeing them live regardless if M. Shadows vocals sound like snot.
Oh, he doesn't sing the ending of TCOT? Not sure that's been mentioned. ;D
Seriously though, I get all that. I know the history behind his voice, I know he has always been a sticking point for some people, but as Kev says, that's their problem. Obviously the only one that had issues with it was MP and look how that turned out. I'm mainly just talking about his vocals NOW, that's it. But on the other side, the five people here mentioning it mean nothing if the band are happy. That's who really matters at this point of their career. Only the other 4 guys on the stage have the possible impact if they had issues. If all 4 of them are happy with his live vocals currently, then play on, who the fuck am I?
Also, the band wouldn't be as popular as they are if JLB wasn't the singer IMO, that's how much I think of him, but whatever.
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Eh, the "I would listen to Dream Theater if they had a different singer" crowd means nothing. That is their problem, not the band's. We could easily argue that many fans might not be fans if JLB wasn't the singer (it is unlikely that their style would have drawn me in back in 1993 with a different singer).
Regardless of JLB's live struggles, in the past or currently, he is one of the great rock singers, and vital to their success. He made those vocal melodies soar on I&W and Scenes, their two most iconic records.
So yeah, the anti-JLB crowd can kiss my ass.
I agree with this post. And for me.... youtube videos just aren't something I'd ever want to be the cause of a singer leaving a band. Aside from James, there's Geddy Lee, who sounded pretty good live and in person but on youtube, maybe not so much. But I've seen bad youtube videos of pretty much all of my favorite bands, and some are a lot younger than those two. The albums will be there forever, so if they sound good on the albums, and if I enjoy the shows I'm actually at in person, that's good enough for me. I had no issues with James on the Astonishing or Scenes anniversary tours - yeah, some notes weren't perfect, but over the course of a whole show, I thought he sounded great. I&W was a little more difficult, but I still saw multiple shows and like them all. James should stay until the band is ready to call it quits and I hope he does.
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I love Dream Theater and James vocals on the classic albums as much as anyone but I am fully in the camp that his live vocals are currently very poor and have been for a while. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course but I am really not sure how anyone could think his Rock in Rio performance was great. I do not for one minute want James replaced but just imagine if he was sick for that gig and was replaced by someone else who sounded exactly as James himself sounded for that performance. That person would be flamed to hell.
The only thing that is really saving James at the moment is the fact that he is James and even though his vocals are poor, it is still him and some of his distinctive tone/style still comes through in his performance.
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No offence to anyone and yes, people's dedication to the band is great, but sometimes people need to take their fanboy goggles off and see things for what it is. I bet if this sort of vocal performance was from another band they didn't care for, the singer would be getting roasted.
Well, I think it is offensive to accuse anyone who doesn't agree with you as simply having "fanboy goggles." Pretty sure Cram, for example, doesn't lap up everything the band does, but still really enjoyed this performance.
Let's just stop pretending his current capabilities are something they're not, that's all.
I haven't seen anyone in this thread doing that.
Boss, I apologise to you as yes, you are clearly getting offended by everything I say, but as mentioned before by others, both sides of the coin should be discussed, not just positive. I'm certainly not going out of my way to be a dickhead to stir shit up on purpose, I go to work for that, and I love the band as much as anyone else. I still said also, I'd take James warts and all over another singer, couldn't imagine the band without him, so I too have had my fanboy moments. Although if DT started covering El Dorado live...........then we'd have to talk. ;D
Well, no, I'm not getting offended by everything you say. You're a good dude that I've had a long history of positive interaction with, and I hope and expect that to continue. I just don't get the repeated insistence that James's performance must be bad when the majority of people posting here have heard it and think otherwise, and then accusing anyone who disagrees with just having on their fanboy goggles. That's unfair. I mean, by and large, I don't really mind being labeled a fanboy. And, by and large, I do tend to default love everything they put out. But to insinuate that that means I just turn of my mind and lap it up because the DT logo is associated with it, and that others do the same...I dunno. That's just going too far to me. And it isn't really accurate. James's singing aside, to give an example: James is my favorite lyricist in the band. To me, lyrically, he was far and away the lyrical MVP of Distance Over Time. However, some of his lyrics are duds for me. And one song that he wrote lyrics for I outright can't stand (lyrically, anyway; which bums me out, because it is some of the best music they have written). I don't shut off my mind and say they are great lyrics when I find them to be poor. But by the same token, I have said my piece and don't put down others who like them. I just don't find that approach to be productive.
What would be productive is if they would play an entire 3-hour set of covering El Dorado on repeat. But I know that's a pipe dream that has a slim chance of coming to fruition, so I'll just have to revisit the Maiden Top 50 thread every so often instead...
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No offence to anyone and yes, people's dedication to the band is great, but sometimes people need to take their fanboy goggles off and see things for what it is. I bet if this sort of vocal performance was from another band they didn't care for, the singer would be getting roasted.
Well, I think it is offensive to accuse anyone who doesn't agree with you as simply having "fanboy goggles." Pretty sure Cram, for example, doesn't lap up everything the band does, but still really enjoyed this performance.
Let's just stop pretending his current capabilities are something they're not, that's all.
I haven't seen anyone in this thread doing that.
Boss, I apologise to you as yes, you are clearly getting offended by everything I say, but as mentioned before by others, both sides of the coin should be discussed, not just positive. I'm certainly not going out of my way to be a dickhead to stir shit up on purpose, I go to work for that, and I love the band as much as anyone else. I still said also, I'd take James warts and all over another singer, couldn't imagine the band without him, so I too have had my fanboy moments. Although if DT started covering El Dorado live...........then we'd have to talk. ;D
Well, no, I'm not getting offended by everything you say. You're a good dude that I've had a long history of positive interaction with, and I hope and expect that to continue. I just don't get the repeated insistence that James's performance must be bad when the majority of people posting here have heard it and think otherwise, and then accusing anyone who disagrees with just having on their fanboy goggles. That's unfair. I mean, by and large, I don't really mind being labeled a fanboy. And, by and large, I do tend to default love everything they put out. But to insinuate that that means I just turn of my mind and lap it up because the DT logo is associated with it, and that others do the same...I dunno. That's just going too far to me. And it isn't really accurate. James's singing aside, to give an example: James is my favorite lyricist in the band. To me, lyrically, he was far and away the lyrical MVP of Distance Over Time. However, some of his lyrics are duds for me. And one song that he wrote lyrics for I outright can't stand (lyrically, anyway; which bums me out, because it is some of the best music they have written). I don't shut off my mind and say they are great lyrics when I find them to be poor. But by the same token, I have said my piece and don't put down others who like them. I just don't find that approach to be productive.
What would be productive is if they would play an entire 3-hour set of covering El Dorado on repeat. But I know that's a pipe dream that has a slim chance of coming to fruition, so I'll just have to revisit the Maiden Top 50 thread every so often instead...
I appreciate this response boss. I'm not sure over the last couple of pages there has been more positive views on his vocals than negative, but I'm certainly not trying to rally anyone into thinking what I do, and that's not what I'm about, but, I'm not the only one saying it. I've mentioned my love for the man also too. The shoe could be put on the other foot though really. I could say, I don't understand the continual insistence from you that his performance must be great when a few think otherwise, but I think we need to move on from that. I take full responsibility for the discussion getting to this point though, don't get me wrong. I'm happy you have no issue with the performance also, I wish I thought the same. I will admit a few agreeing with me did give me a little validation, only because I thought I seriously was being too harsh on him (which is still possible) or I'm completely missing something, or I'm just growing out of his vocal style.
Agree with the lyrics, he's written some of the best by far, but others you wonder if it's come from the same dude.
I mean, by and large, I don't really mind being labeled a fanboy. And, by and large, I do tend to default love everything they put out. But to insinuate that that means I just turn of my mind and lap it up because the DT logo is associated with it, and that others do the same...I dunno. That's just going too far to me. And it isn't really accurate.
Appreciate this also. I'll quit the fanboy talk now, thank you for addressing that. I actually wish I was still like that with DT like I am with bands like Maiden (except El Dorado of course), which leads me to this......
What would be productive is if they would play an entire 3-hour set of covering El Dorado on repeat.
Now that is something I find very highly offensive myself and is going WAY to far. I shudder just thinking of this.
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the anti-JLB crowd can kiss my ass.
🎉 Woohoo!!
How nice it is to wake up to see that I'm not the only one defending him.
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I got through the RiR stream without really worrying about James. Sounded ok to me.
Someone recently mentioned a Buenos Aires show from around the same time, and a link was posted but now I can't find it. It's supposed to be an even better performance. I found only one recent YouTube and it was unwatchable (weird commercials...kinda creepy). Does anyone have a better link? I'd love to see it. Thanks in advance.
I send a mail to that guy asking him for the recording without commercials. He said:
- No. It is only for trade. If you filmed a band, we see.
I told him I don't record shows, but I passed him my trading list and he said all of my shows were on DIME haha (impossible, because some of them are made by me as recopilations and only are traded on the DT Hub). Later, he said:
- Do you record Mr Bungle or Judas Priest?
I don't have anything of those bands. If anyone can help me with the trade, I promise I will share the full argentina recording with you, as well as I did with Rio.
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I love Dream Theater and James vocals on the classic albums as much as anyone but I am fully in the camp that his live vocals are currently very poor and have been for a while. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course but I am really not sure how anyone could think his Rock in Rio performance was great. I do not for one minute want James replaced but just imagine if he was sick for that gig and was replaced by someone else who sounded exactly as James himself sounded for that performance. That person would be flamed to hell.
The only thing that is really saving James at the moment is the fact that he is James and even though his vocals are poor, it is still him and some of his distinctive tone/style still comes through in his performance.
Basically, nostalgia :P
As critical as I am, I'm not sure I'd prefer that personally. I'd really rather them pigeon hole their sets, cuts the old classics and detune some more.
However, I do think a different singer nailing some of the classics would breathe new like into the band also but I can't see JP booting him.
I agree, I don't think there's any chance of that happening, and I't not like I want it to happen, it's just that some shake up in the vocal department could, as I said, infuse this band with new life for at least another decade or more.
Also, Derek got the boot for a lot less :lol
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Ha, I wouldn't be surprised if Derek got the boot because he couldn't keep his ego in check. Also Jordan being a superior musician and a nicer guy might have had an impact too.
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Jordan was also the guy they always wanted
it's just that some shake up in the vocal department could, as I said, infuse this band with new life for at least another decade or more.
Not sure I agree with this. The guys are old. Some younger lad isn't going to change the ways of these older dudes.
And honestly, the band is nearing their end. Any shake up at this point could more likely mean the end of the band.
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Jordan was also the guy they always wanted
it's just that some shake up in the vocal department could, as I said, infuse this band with new life for at least another decade or more.
Not sure I agree with this. The guys are old. Some younger lad isn't going to change the ways of these older dudes.
And honestly, the band is nearing their end. Any shake up at this point could more likely mean the end of the band.
Mid
They're not that old, mid fifties is middle-aged. James is in his late fifties and Jordan in his sixties. Bands like Yes, The Roliing Stones, and even Sammy Hagar are still going at it in their seventies.
I would bet DT lasts at least another decade and we get three or four more albums out of them.
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Jordan was also the guy they always wanted
it's just that some shake up in the vocal department could, as I said, infuse this band with new life for at least another decade or more.
Not sure I agree with this. The guys are old. Some younger lad isn't going to change the ways of these older dudes.
And honestly, the band is nearing their end. Any shake up at this point could more likely mean the end of the band.
Mid
They're not that old, mid fifties is middle-aged. James is in his late fifties and Jordan in his sixties. Bands like Yes, The Roliing Stones, and even Sammy Hagar are still going at it in their seventies.
I would bet DT lasts at least another decade and we get three or four more albums out of them.
And don't forget legendary prog forerfathers the Moody Blues, who toured well past their 50th anniversary!!!
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If I'm not mistaken, Roger Waters is 79 and Sir Paul is 80. FUCKING 80.
Dream Theater - who are more or less my age, by the way - are pups in comparison.
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If I'm not mistaken, Roger Waters is 79 and Sir Paul is 80. FUCKING 80.
Dream Theater - who are more or less my age, by the way - are pups in comparison.
Yes! And I seem to recall an interview with JR where he said they love making music and aren't gonna stop? (I would find a link but I'm at work, help me out pls?).
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I'm sure they have a decade in them still, but that's still not a very long time. I don't expect JP to just stop performing, but I can see DT as a band stopping and them going to do their own things if say JLB wanted to quit.
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I'm sure they have a decade in them still, but that's still not a very long time. I don't expect JP to just stop performing, but I can see DT as a band stopping and them going to do their own things if say JLB wanted to quit.
I could see that. I hope for more but I would be happy with another solid decade, and then solo/collaborative projects as they are willing/able.
I can still see them going til 80, though!
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They could easily have another 10 years in them at least.
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I don't understand the thought that the band would likely call it quits if JLB left. Is he so integral to the band and their happiness that they just cannot go on without him according to most of the fans? MP did WAY more for the band and then came out very arguably stronger with his replacement.
A lot of fans would be sad, but I think people are underestimating how many fans would be very happy if this happened. It's pretty obvious that the guys love their job and love playing. Plus this is their legacy and livelihood. I do not see DT ending if the guy who many people believe is the weakest (musical) link called it a day. Ultimately this is a band that is driven by the instruments-- guitar specifically-- and as long as the key song writers are there, they will endure...health permitting.
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They've got to at least make it their 50th Anniversary tour. That's one where I think Portnoy would be performing on and one to celebrate big with. Maybe make it a big event with two, or even three, days dedicated to being a special show, something that could be done towards the end of the tour leg/cycle.
JLB is integral to what JP, and likely the rest of the band, consider the Dream Theater "sound." I can see their side as well, since they are also the ones playing beside him. It'd probably be pretty awkward after all these years, playing with a different singer/front-man.
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Dream Theater just doesn't come off to me as a band that will go the route of other longevity bands where it's just JP left as the remaining original member. I could be completely wrong as this is just how I feel and have no idea how the band feels. The band already proved they could continue without MP, but for some reason I find it hard to believe they would continue without JLB or JP.
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Dream Theater is right now in the position that Yes was in around the Magnification album. That was twenty years ago and Yes is still around, albeit with a much different line up. But it's still a band. So who can tell if we will be able to recognize Dream Theater twenty years from now.
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Makes me wonder if this JP tour coming up has some meaning towards what JP can do on his own if DT were to end.
Maybe one day there is no DT but JP tours playing a mix of his solo stuff and dream theater songs and that's closest you'd get to seeing "Dream Theater". Kind of like how Roger Waters is these days if you want to see something as close to Pink Floyd.
I mean, who knows, all speculation and thought.
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Makes me wonder if this JP tour coming up has some meaning towards what JP can do on his own if DT were to end.
Maybe one day there is no DT but JP tours playing a mix of his solo stuff and dream theater songs and that's closest you'd get to seeing "Dream Theater". Kind of like how Roger Waters is these days if you want to see something as close to Pink Floyd.
I mean, who knows, all speculation and thought.
I have wondered something like this as well. Jordan's touring, learning a new instrument, expanding. James talked about touring his new album, and then posted about another solo album in the works. MM is busy with his teaching and teaching book....
I hope not soon though.
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MP's Shattered Fortress could always come back too. Honestly, that band was pretty awesome.
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Dream Theater is right now in the position that Yes was in around the Magnification album. That was twenty years ago and Yes is still around, albeit with a much different line up. But it's still a band. So who can tell if we will be able to recognize Dream Theater twenty years from now.
I have been thinking about Yes too - reading all these discussions about whether JLB can or can't be replaced. I mean, Jon Anderson was probably the closest thing to a truly irreplaceable singer. Just like JLB, his singing was a big part of trademark band sound. An unlike JLB, he was integral do the band's creative direction and songwriting. Yet replaced he was - and twice at that. Whether the band was any good without him is beside the point (even though Drama is pretty well regarded by fans) - the point is that even someone everybody says they can't imagine a band going without can be successfully replaced.
All that said, I don't think it is likely JLB will be replaced. Nor should he be. Unlike Anderson, he has got one important point going for him - he's apparently a very good bandmate. Easygoing guy who doesn't stir trouble and is a not a pain in the ass to deal with. Granted, DT is business but they are also people. At this stage of their career, I believe they value their friendship and positive atmosphere in the band a lot more than maximizing the quality of live performance and, in the effect, revenue.
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^ to your point...there are seemingly unreplaceable people who left bands for whatever reason and the bands carried on successfully. AC/DC and Black Sabbath come to mind as does the case you mention.
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Makes me wonder if this JP tour coming up has some meaning towards what JP can do on his own if DT were to end.
Maybe one day there is no DT but JP tours playing a mix of his solo stuff and dream theater songs and that's closest you'd get to seeing "Dream Theater". Kind of like how Roger Waters is these days if you want to see something as close to Pink Floyd.
I mean, who knows, all speculation and thought.
I've been kinda thinking of this as well and actually wondering if they'll play any DT material (maybe an instrumental like Ytsejam or Hell's Kitchen) on this tour? Or maybe some LTE? Because I can see JP touring solo in the future like you said, and doing LTE material as well.