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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: Glasser on January 19, 2022, 03:05:53 PM
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Bottom line, all live albums should be left in bootleg form in every aspect of all members performances PERIOD!!! If any band wants to release a live album they need to find the best show of said tour and release it AS IS!!! The official DT bootlegs are true live albums. One of my favorite live albums was Ozzy Speak Of The Devil BUT when I heard the bootlegs of the same shows Ozzy sounded god awful and now I look at that album as a re-recorded version of old Sabbath tunes. Pisses me the fuck off! Its one thing to master or brighten up the actual recording sound if need be but it should end there! I like my live albums LIVE, that means capturing and not altering the essence of the songs.
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The worst is the DVD from that tour. Crystal clear singing vocals, but talking to the crowd like an invalid.
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The worst is the DVD from that tour. Crystal clear singing vocals, but talking to the crowd like an invalid.
If its the one I'm thinking of, I think I purchased that DVD but only lasted a couple of songs and turned it off cause it was so overdubbed and the video and audio didn't match up at all. Awful.
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I don't mind a few reasonable touch-up, but I agree that the practice can get extremely overdone.
Sometimes I wish they would have done a touch up here or there on OIALT. I remember being extremely excited for that album before it was released, and then fairly disappointed when I heard it. MP is a purist, and wanted no overdubs whatsoever. In principle, I can see where he was coming from, but in practice, they didn't capture DT at their best, and the album suffered as a consequence. I was very happy when LSFNY captured a far better performance from everyone. (although I think they did fix one mistake? Can't remember for sure)
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I recall that Priest's Unleashed in the East was often referred to as Unleashed in the Studio because it was believed to be heavily overdubbed. Great album, but if definitely doesn’t have a legitimate live feel.
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I recall that Priest's Unleashed in the East was often referred to as Unleashed in the Studio because it was believed to be heavily overdubbed. Great album, but if definitely doesn’t have a legitimate live feel.
That's hysterical!!!! :lol.
I have seen Priest and Halford live and he nailed it every time.
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I don't mind a few reasonable touch-up, but I agree that the practice can get extremely overdone.
Sometimes I wish they would have done a touch up here or there on OIALT. I remember being extremely excited for that album before it was released, and then fairly disappointed when I heard it. MP is a purest, and wanted no overdubs whatsoever. In principle, I can see where he was coming from, but in practice, they didn't capture DT at their best, and the album suffered as a consequence. I was very happy when LSFNY captured a far better performance from everyone. (although I think they did fix one mistake? Can't remember for sure)
I'm with you completely on OIALT. I was so excited to get a live album from Dream Theater. But it's unlistenable, honestly. One, James is horrendous. My immediate thought upon hearing it, was that I do not remember James ever sounding like that, and I had seen them 9 times at that point.
Two, isn't it a mashup of two shows? I hate that.
When they released the '98 LA show as their first Live Series show on Ytsejam, I thought, well, this has to be better than OIALT. Nope. I thought it was embarrassing for James, and that was really the first sign that I thought MP must be deliberately trying to do just that. To embarrass James. Why else would he release that show, especially on the heels of the OIALT official release. Why not something earlier that showed James in a better light?
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I don't mind a few reasonable touch-up, but I agree that the practice can get extremely overdone.
Sometimes I wish they would have done a touch up here or there on OIALT. I remember being extremely excited for that album before it was released, and then fairly disappointed when I heard it. MP is a purest, and wanted no overdubs whatsoever. In principle, I can see where he was coming from, but in practice, they didn't capture DT at their best, and the album suffered as a consequence. I was very happy when LSFNY captured a far better performance from everyone. (although I think they did fix one mistake? Can't remember for sure)
I'm with you completely on OIALT. I was so excited to get a live album from Dream Theater. But it's unlistenable, honestly. One, James is horrendous. My immediate thought upon hearing it, was that I do not remember James ever sounding like that, and I had seen them 9 times at that point.
Two, isn't it a mashup of two shows? I hate that.
When they released the '98 LA show as their first Live Series show on Ytsejam, I thought, well, this has to be better than OIALT. Nope. I thought it was embarrassing for James, and that was really the first sign that I thought MP must be deliberately trying to do just that. To embarrass James. Why else would he release that show, especially on the heels of the OIALT official release. Why not something earlier that showed James in a better light?
Looking forward to hearing the new tour. I'm going to assume another live album because touring is do fragile now.
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A live album is still an "album" so there should be expected post-production. To what extent is up to the band/artist/production team.
You can have overdubs, performances from different concerts, full shows cleaned up, full shows warts and all. I think most, if not all, live albums are hybrid recordings, taking dry unmixed soundboards, mixing them, and adding in audience noise picked up from different microphones in the venue.
Some artists put out live albums to showcase new material otherwise not recorded in the studio. Often, a live album is a way to put out a commercial product to give listeners an idea of what their shows sound like. Unfortunately, these days, especially with older acts, live albums are a means to rake in some cash without having to make anything new, probably due to lack of creativity and/or pinch pennies out of loyal customers for their retirement fund/estate for when the grim reaper shows up.
Sounds like OP only wants live recordings, "bootlegs" if you will, audience recordings or straight-from-the-soundboard recordings, which are dry and unmixed (some instruments may dominate the others, or have a flat sound) all of which are plentiful on a number of sites, like archive.org for example. However, they are NOT albums.
I generally only listen to live music by bands and artists that actually DO original music live, and/or play in a way that is not captured in the studio that is very distinct from what they did in the studio.
This means acts like the Grateful Dead, Phish, Frank Zappa. Jams, different arrangements, high energy playing, different set lists every night or so, themed sets, etc...
DT mixed up set lists in the 00's and threw in the occasional jam but the songs were played the same way every night, and even the jams had pre-determined destinations.
I like Score because even though there are some post-production tricks on that album (JLB vocals, UAGM fix, etc..) they did a themed show, and played music not heard on their regular studio albums. If they had the budget I bet they would have tried to clean up the out of tune orchestra. Their other live albums are fine but nothing special (aside from a few cuts that are superior to their studio counterparts, like LSFNY A Change of Seasons)
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I still prefer the Boston Opera House boot to the actual live album. I feel like JP's amazing solo was on Space Dye Vest was cleaned up a bit. The funniest part was when James forgets Eren's name and thanks the Boston College Music College.
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Even though James doesn’t sound great on OIALT, I actually think the sound of the band on that album is better than LSFNY or Budokon which both sound kind of wimpy to me. The drums especially always sounded squashed on LSFNY.
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Even though James doesn’t sound great on OIALT, I actually think the sound of the band on that album is better than LSFNY or Budokon which both sound kind of wimpy to me. The drums especially always sounded squashed on LSFNY.
I always liked it. Raw and lots of energy.
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Even though James doesn’t sound great on OIALT, I actually think the sound of the band on that album is better than LSFNY or Budokon which both sound kind of wimpy to me. The drums especially always sounded squashed on LSFNY.
I always liked it. Raw and lots of energy.
Yeah, I agree with that, but vocally, it just kills it.
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Even though James doesn’t sound great on OIALT, I actually think the sound of the band on that album is better than LSFNY or Budokon which both sound kind of wimpy to me. The drums especially always sounded squashed on LSFNY.
I always liked it. Raw and lots of energy.
Yeah, I agree with that, but vocally, it just kills it.
I haven't listened for a while, and while I remember James being off, I still him recall not ruining the album for me or anything.
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If you're following the Album thread, I'll be hitting the FII Era next week, and I'll definitely be spinning OIALT for the first time in probably 20 years. I have the boot of the whole original show, which is a beast, so I'll be hitting that too.
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If you're following the Album thread, I'll be hitting the FII Era next week, and I'll definitely be spinning OIALT for the first time in probably 20 years. I have the boot of the whole original show, which is a beast, so I'll be hitting that too.
Alright, yeah I've seen those posts mate. I'll follow along too from now then.
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I don't mind a few reasonable touch-up, but I agree that the practice can get extremely overdone.
I agree. In principle, yeah, they should just pick the show from a tour that is the best performance of all, but the reality is that not every band records every show, especially in years past. And even then, these days often times the band is also filming, and unless you're talking about Metallica, a band is likely not gonna fully film every gig, either. So minor touch ups or to fix absolutely necessary stuff (like when the guitar dropped out during UaGM at the Score show) are fine. But to overly doctor stuff is not, IMO.
I was very happy when LSFNY captured a far better performance from everyone. (although I think they did fix one mistake? Can't remember for sure)
They did. Can't remember for certain, but off the top of my head, I think JP botched one of the solos in ACoS, so they fixed that.
I recall that Priest's Unleashed in the East was often referred to as Unleashed in the Studio because it was believed to be heavily overdubbed. Great album, but if definitely doesn’t have a legitimate live feel.
That's hysterical!!!! :lol.
I have seen Priest and Halford live and he nailed it every time.
Isn't Kiss Alive notorious for also being rumored to have been mostly replicated in the studio after the fact, too? And IIRC, there are arguments over how much of Thin Lizzy's Live and Dangerous was truly live as well.
When they released the '98 LA show as their first Live Series show on Ytsejam, I thought, well, this has to be better than OIALT. Nope. I thought it was embarrassing for James, and that was really the first sign that I thought MP must be deliberately trying to do just that. To embarrass James. Why else would he release that show, especially on the heels of the OIALT official release. Why not something earlier that showed James in a better light?
MP released that show because all over the Ytsejam Mailing List it had been hyped up as a show not to be missed with special guests (remember Bruce wasn't in Maiden at the time) and additions to the setlist, but obviously not everyone on the list could've attended the show. So 5 years later, after finally getting the official bootlegs going, MP finally got to release it to the fans. Probably would've been better if it had been released back in 1998, but with OiaL having just been released and DT in no position to release official boots, it had to wait. It had nothing to do with MP trying to make JL look bad.
A live album is still an "album" so there should be expected post-production.
True, but we're talking specifically about a live album - not a studio album. Big difference.
Sounds like OP only wants live recordings, "bootlegs" if you will, audience recordings or straight-from-the-soundboard recordings, which are dry and unmixed (some instruments may dominate the others, or have a flat sound) all of which are plentiful on a number of sites, like archive.org for example. However, they are NOT albums.
Glasser can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he has a problem with the recordings being polished up, as in properly EQ'd, mixed and mastered. He just takes issue with all the doctoring that goes on that makes a live album less than truly live.
Even though James doesn’t sound great on OIALT, I actually think the sound of the band on that album is better than LSFNY or Budokon which both sound kind of wimpy to me. The drums especially always sounded squashed on LSFNY.
I always liked it. Raw and lots of energy.
Yeah, I agree with that, but vocally, it just kills it.
I haven't listened for a while, and while I remember James being off, I still him recall not ruining the album for me or anything.
Exactly the same for me - haven't listened to it for a long time, but I was never put off because JL didn't have a perfect night.
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When they released the '98 LA show as their first Live Series show on Ytsejam, I thought, well, this has to be better than OIALT. Nope. I thought it was embarrassing for James, and that was really the first sign that I thought MP must be deliberately trying to do just that. To embarrass James. Why else would he release that show, especially on the heels of the OIALT official release. Why not something earlier that showed James in a better light?
MP released that show because all over the Ytsejam Mailing List it had been hyped up as a show not to be missed with special guests (remember Bruce wasn't in Maiden at the time) and additions to the setlist, but obviously not everyone on the list could've attended the show. So 5 years later, after finally getting the official bootlegs going, MP finally got to release it to the fans. Probably would've been better if it had been released back in 1998, but with OiaL having just been released and DT in no position to release official boots, it had to wait. It had nothing to do with MP trying to make JL look bad.
I know nothing about the first bolded part. I honestly don't find the show all that special TBH. Bruce makes an appearance. Whoopie!
As far as the second bolded part...if your singer sounds that bad, and you release the show anyway, then..I'm sorry, that's a dickish move. It was my first thought on my first listen, and I know I shared with you early on that I could tell there was friction between MP and JLB. And the release of this show perked me up to that.
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I was very happy when LSFNY captured a far better performance from everyone. (although I think they did fix one mistake? Can't remember for sure)
They did. Can't remember for certain, but off the top of my head, I think JP botched one of the solos in ACoS, so they fixed that.
Don't know about the solos in ACOS but I think JP sang the wrong verses in one of chorus for 'The Silent Man'. Which I found weird because a few other mistakes in the main show weren't corrected. Like JLB singing 'larrying one eternity' in Through My Words. and Kevin Shirley forgetting to mix in MP's backing vocals in Strange Deja-Vu.
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Bottom line, all live albums should be left in bootleg form in every aspect of all members performances PERIOD!!! If any band wants to release a live album they need to find the best show of said tour and release it AS IS!!! The official DT bootlegs are true live albums. One of my favorite live albums was Ozzy Speak Of The Devil BUT when I heard the bootlegs of the same shows Ozzy sounded god awful and now I look at that album as a re-recorded version of old Sabbath tunes. Pisses me the fuck off! Its one thing to master or brighten up the actual recording sound if need be but it should end there! I like my live albums LIVE, that means capturing and not altering the essence of the songs.
I pretty much agree.
"But we needed to fix mistakes."
If you want a perfect performance, that is what the studio versions are for in most cases. A truly live version should be just that: live, faults and all.
But I pretty much accept at this point that just about every live album or video I get isn't really the true live performance, except if it's U2 or Dave Matthews Band, who I believe both usually just release everything as played live, and if there were mistakes, so be it.
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I don't mind a few reasonable touch-up, but I agree that the practice can get extremely overdone.
I agree. In principle, yeah, they should just pick the show from a tour that is the best performance of all, but the reality is that not every band records every show, especially in years past. And even then, these days often times the band is also filming, and unless you're talking about Metallica, a band is likely not gonna fully film every gig, either. So minor touch ups or to fix absolutely necessary stuff (like when the guitar dropped out during UaGM at the Score show) are fine. But to overly doctor stuff is not, IMO.
I was very happy when LSFNY captured a far better performance from everyone. (although I think they did fix one mistake? Can't remember for sure)
They did. Can't remember for certain, but off the top of my head, I think JP botched one of the solos in ACoS, so they fixed that.
I recall that Priest's Unleashed in the East was often referred to as Unleashed in the Studio because it was believed to be heavily overdubbed. Great album, but if definitely doesn’t have a legitimate live feel.
That's hysterical!!!! :lol.
I have seen Priest and Halford live and he nailed it every time.
Isn't Kiss Alive notorious for also being rumored to have been mostly replicated in the studio after the fact, too? And IIRC, there are arguments over how much of Thin Lizzy's Live and Dangerous was truly live as well.
When they released the '98 LA show as their first Live Series show on Ytsejam, I thought, well, this has to be better than OIALT. Nope. I thought it was embarrassing for James, and that was really the first sign that I thought MP must be deliberately trying to do just that. To embarrass James. Why else would he release that show, especially on the heels of the OIALT official release. Why not something earlier that showed James in a better light?
MP released that show because all over the Ytsejam Mailing List it had been hyped up as a show not to be missed with special guests (remember Bruce wasn't in Maiden at the time) and additions to the setlist, but obviously not everyone on the list could've attended the show. So 5 years later, after finally getting the official bootlegs going, MP finally got to release it to the fans. Probably would've been better if it had been released back in 1998, but with OiaL having just been released and DT in no position to release official boots, it had to wait. It had nothing to do with MP trying to make JL look bad.
A live album is still an "album" so there should be expected post-production.
True, but we're talking specifically about a live album - not a studio album. Big difference.
Sounds like OP only wants live recordings, "bootlegs" if you will, audience recordings or straight-from-the-soundboard recordings, which are dry and unmixed (some instruments may dominate the others, or have a flat sound) all of which are plentiful on a number of sites, like archive.org for example. However, they are NOT albums.
Glasser can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he has a problem with the recordings being polished up, as in properly EQ'd, mixed and mastered. He just takes issue with all the doctoring that goes on that makes a live album less than truly live.
EXACTLY!!!!!
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I want a live album to be representative of the band's tour at that time. If they muck up something badly on one show that they aced the rest of the tour, I can't say I have a problem with that being fixed. It doesn't need to be 100% live, if it is done in the spirit of the live performance. If your band isn't performing well live on a regular basis, perhaps you should rework your material or just forgo recording a live performance altogether.
However it shakes out, not a hill I am going to die on.
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I recall that Priest's Unleashed in the East was often referred to as Unleashed in the Studio because it was believed to be heavily overdubbed. Great album, but if definitely doesn’t have a legitimate live feel.
From Halford's book he mentioned that he had a cold during the actual live recording and he recorded all the vocals in his front room all at once a la normal live performance.
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I'll go a step further. I'd rather a band take songs from the same tour but different shows and use the best versions than redo ANY recordings in the studio. If a band is planning a live album they will most likely record numerous shows from the tour. That's just my opinion.
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I'll go a step further. I'd rather a band take songs from the same tour but different shows and use the best versions than redo ANY recordings in the studio. If a band is planning a live album they will most likely record numerous shows from the tour. That's just my opinion.
Doesn't this happen a lot anyway?
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I'll just say that KISS shouldn't be allowed to make live albums anymore.
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What I was saying is a live album is still an album, doesn't mean it has to be a full show without overdubs.
Often, live albums do take the best performances from a tour and compiles them to represent what the average show would be like, with overdubs and mistakes fixed. The Grateful Dead did this with their traditional live albums, of course they've released hundreds of their shows in full, warts and all.
Live at the Marquee is what I'm talking about. Using live tracks as your basic tracks, and massively overdubbing it to make it sound more studio than live (something Zappa did)
Harder to do that when you have a live album that corresponds with a live video release of a show.
I agree that a full show released commercially should be as close to what it sounded like live as possible, warts and all.
An exception is something like Score, where it's being presented as this exclamation point on their career at that point, so cleaning up mistakes and fixing the vocals makes sense. Live at Budokan, however, is warts and all, no? JLB vocals are questionable at times on that one. MP messes up his drum intro for As I Am.
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I think the mistakes sometimes make it special and for me cause repeated listens and watches. For eg on Opeth's Royal Albert concert, there are a couple of times where the guitar goes out and it makes for a fun shot where there's no guitar on one side. I think it was Akerfeldt? or Fredrik? either way, it was really fun moment. I don't mind those being on the release.
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I had a discussion with the guy who edited the LTE-LA DVD over at Portnoy's forum about something they fixed, and it comes down to a sort of philosophical bent. His take was that a live DVD should be akin to a movie. Something produced to entertain and it should look and sound as good as possible. My take is that it should be a documentary. Something to show you exactly what it was like if you were there. I'm still of that opinion.
One thing I can say is that live and loud covers a lot of flaws. There are plenty of things that most people simply won't notice at 120dB in a packed arena. Obviously there are things people will. Like others, I don't mind a few touch-ups because they're probably things that, in the moment, I didn't notice in the first place. JLB's vocals from Score are a perfect example. I'm told they were touched up for the DVD release. I couldn't tell you because that's honestly the way I remember it live. Dude had a great night. If they were to turn the horrible performance from the LA boot into a great performance it would be a totally different show, and that doesn't sit well with me. If that's what bands want to present then they should just release a live music video.
Also, more annoying to me than overdubs that I can't even discern is piped in crowd noise. Every show ever filmed in Japan has more crowd noise than music, for some reason. If Buddokan actually sounded like that nobody would film there. Unleashed in the East is probably fairly representative of their live show in terms of performance, so I don't care about what was overdubbed. I do care about the constant background noise.
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I recall that Priest's Unleashed in the East was often referred to as Unleashed in the Studio because it was believed to be heavily overdubbed. Great album, but if definitely doesn’t have a legitimate live feel.
That's hysterical!!!! :lol.
I have seen Priest and Halford live and he nailed it every time.
If you believe the accepted wisdom, he was sick on that Japanese tour, and they took the tapes back and in one afternoon he sang the set along to the music. So it's "live", just not live from that night. ;) :)
EDIT: TWICE now I've been ninja'd by Gazinwales in a thread (the "Black Sabbath" thread is the other).
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Back in the '80s and into the '90s, I used to get excited for live albums. So many great ones. For me, Yessongs, All the World's a Stage and Strangers in the Night were bought long after they were released. We had Live After Death and Operation LiveCrime. I was really looking forward to Triumph's Stages, but it was so thin sounding, which I attributed to an inability to recreate their studio sound live as a three-piece band (even though Rush had no problem doing it).
Starting in the late '90s and for most of the new millennium, live albums haven't been special, and I rarely buy them anymore. I don't know if it's because a lot of bands seem to release a live album every tour or what. Someone gave me Rush in Rio, but I've rarely listened to it and don't own any of their other 21st century live albums. I will, however, buy live DVDs -- especially if they've got something unique going on like an orchestra.
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I want a live album to be representative of the band's tour at that time. If they muck up something badly on one show that they aced the rest of the tour, I can't say I have a problem with that being fixed. It doesn't need to be 100% live, if it is done in the spirit of the live performance. If your band isn't performing well live on a regular basis, perhaps you should rework your material or just forgo recording a live performance altogether.
However it shakes out, not a hill I am going to die on.
That was always Paul Stanley's rationale for Kiss Alive! It was never intended to be a representation of ONE SPECIFIC Kiss show, but a representation of the Kiss show at that time. I've seen (and heard) enough great Kiss shows over the years that I'm okay with that approach.
I do prefer specific, complete live shows. I used to hate the Deep Purple live albums like Made In Europe, that were just live songs tacked together from a various shows, or albums like Seconds Out or Exit... Stage Left that were essentially live songs as opposed to representations of the band, live.
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I had a discussion with the guy who edited the LTE-LA DVD over at Portnoy's forum about something they fixed, and it comes down to a sort of philosophical bent. His take was that a live DVD should be akin to a movie. Something produced to entertain and it should look and sound as good as possible. My take is that it should be a documentary. Something to show you exactly what it was like if you were there. I'm still of that opinion.
One thing I can say is that live and loud covers a lot of flaws. There are plenty of things that most people simply won't notice at 120dB in a packed arena. Obviously there are things people will. Like others, I don't mind a few touch-ups because they're probably things that, in the moment, I didn't notice in the first place. JLB's vocals from Score are a perfect example. I'm told they were touched up for the DVD release. I couldn't tell you because that's honestly the way I remember it live. Dude had a great night. If they were to turn the horrible performance from the LA boot into a great performance it would be a totally different show, and that doesn't sit well with me. If that's what bands want to present then they should just release a live music video.
Also, more annoying to me than overdubs that I can't even discern is piped in crowd noise. Every show ever filmed in Japan has more crowd noise than music, for some reason. If Buddokan actually sounded like that nobody would film there. Unleashed in the East is probably fairly representative of their live show in terms of performance, so I don't care about what was overdubbed. I do care about the constant background noise.
I'm with you on that last one; always makes me laugh when I hear a live song that was presumably played on the bands' club or small theater tour, and the crowd sounds like a World Cup game in Brazil.
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I do prefer specific, complete live shows. I used to hate the Deep Purple live albums like Made In Europe, that were just live songs tacked together from a various shows, or albums like Seconds Out or Exit... Stage Left that were essentially live songs as opposed to representations of the band, live.
Exit State Left is weird for a lot of reasons, starting with the fact that 3/4 of it is from a single night on the Moving Pictures tour while side 2 is from two shows on the Permanent Waves tour. You then have the 13th song in the set presented as the opener. It then goes into the 14th song, but it still fades out and fades back in between the two tracks. Side 1 ends with the 8th song in the set. Obviously, there's going to be fade outs and fade ins between album sides, and side 3 is great -- in part because it's continuous between the three songs that were performed consecutively (the 10th through 12th songs in the set). Then side 4 does what side 1 does, with songs 3, 16 and 25. Likewise, side 2 takes one song from a completely different part of the set list and puts it with three consecutive songs but has fade outs and fade ins between the consecutive songs (except for Broon's Bane and Jacob's Ladder).
Add all that to the terrible mix and it's easy to understand why a lot of folks don't like it despite the super strong material and excellent performances.
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Back in the '80s and into the '90s, I used to get excited for live albums. So many great ones. For me, Yessongs, All the World's a Stage and Strangers in the Night were bought long after they were released. We had Live After Death and Operation LiveCrime. I was really looking forward to Triumph's Stages, but it was so thin sounding, which I attributed to an inability to recreate their studio sound live as a three-piece band (even though Rush had no problem doing it).
Starting in the late '90s and for most of the new millennium, live albums haven't been special, and I rarely buy them anymore. I don't know if it's because a lot of bands seem to release a live album every tour or what. Someone gave me Rush in Rio, but I've rarely listened to it and don't own any of their other 21st century live albums. I will, however, buy live DVDs -- especially if they've got something unique going on like an orchestra.
I've always been pretty ho hum on CDs of live performances. There are a few that are special, and it does seem that the older ones like Journey's Captured or Genesis' Seconds Out have more magic than newer live albums. But something like DT's Budokan album, I think I listened to it a few times when I got it and then never touched it again until the other night when I decided I should rip the Instrumedley to my computer at least. If its a concert where the band does something unique with the songs (Counting Crows' Live Across a Wire is a good example), then I'm more interested. Sometimes a band really knocks something out in a special way, like on the first part of Score where DT did an amazing job with those early tracks. But if it's just a recreation of the studio performance (or if it's noticeably worse than the studio performance), it's not very interesting to me.
I do also really enjoy a good live DVD. Rush's R30 is one of my favorite live films, and I can watch that over and over again. But I'm unlikely to listen to the CDs that came with it.
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What about when there are accidents or equipment malfunctions, such as amps blowing out, or strings breaking, etc.
Some bands might not be able to record multiple shows and have only the budget to release one show from the tour, and if something goes wrong on that one show, are they just screwed for the live album? Don't they deserve to be able to release a product that is, at very least, the song they wanted to play in full? Sometimes mics cut out or other such mishaps happen out of the band's control, and if there's an easy way to fix it for the live release, especially if it's just an audio release with no accompanying video, shouldn't they be allowed to fix it in post?
-Marc.
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I'll go a step further. I'd rather a band take songs from the same tour but different shows and use the best versions than redo ANY recordings in the studio. If a band is planning a live album they will most likely record numerous shows from the tour. That's just my opinion.
Doesn't this happen a lot anyway?
Yes. All I'm saying is that instead of re-recording parts, find another version from the tour.
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What about when there are accidents or equipment malfunctions, such as amps blowing out, or strings breaking, etc.
Some bands might not be able to record multiple shows and have only the budget to release one show from the tour, and if something goes wrong on that one show, are they just screwed for the live album? Don't they deserve to be able to release a product that is, at very least, the song they wanted to play in full? Sometimes mics cut out or other such mishaps happen out of the band's control, and if there's an easy way to fix it for the live release, especially if it's just an audio release with no accompanying video, shouldn't they be allowed to fix it in post?
-Marc.
How a band copes with such a thing is a part of the show. Steven Wilson breaking a string in Trains makes that rendition unique. I won't necessarily fault a band if they want to fix it, depending on the severity, but I'd more than likely find the flawed version more interesting. Not to mention that often times that context makes a performance far better.
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What about when there are accidents or equipment malfunctions, such as amps blowing out, or strings breaking, etc.
Some bands might not be able to record multiple shows and have only the budget to release one show from the tour, and if something goes wrong on that one show, are they just screwed for the live album? Don't they deserve to be able to release a product that is, at very least, the song they wanted to play in full? Sometimes mics cut out or other such mishaps happen out of the band's control, and if there's an easy way to fix it for the live release, especially if it's just an audio release with no accompanying video, shouldn't they be allowed to fix it in post?
-Marc.
How a band copes with such a thing is a part of the show. Steven Wilson breaking a string in Trains makes that rendition unique. I won't necessarily fault a band if they want to fix it, depending on the severity, but I'd more than likely find the flawed version more interesting. Not to mention that often times that context makes a performance far better.
Exactly! That’s what captures the live essence, energy, and human element, mistakes, malfunctions. If we want to hear perfect versions, put the album on.
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I think a band should do something weird. Since so many bands play to a click track now, it means every song is played identically every night.
I think it'd be weird fun to have the drums from one show, the guitar from another, bass from another, etc etc. So you have a perfectly synced performance but that none of the instruments were actually together on that song but all are live.
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I'll go a step further. I'd rather a band take songs from the same tour but different shows and use the best versions than redo ANY recordings in the studio. If a band is planning a live album they will most likely record numerous shows from the tour. That's just my opinion.
Doesn't this happen a lot anyway?
Yes. All I'm saying is that instead of re-recording parts, find another version from the tour.
I can get on board with that.
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I think a band should do something weird. Since so many bands play to a click track now, it means every song is played identically every night.
I think it'd be weird fun to have the drums from one show, the guitar from another, bass from another, etc etc. So you have a perfectly synced performance but that none of the instruments were actually together on that song but all are live.
You're a weird motherfucker.
I love you so much.
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I'll go a step further. I'd rather a band take songs from the same tour but different shows and use the best versions than redo ANY recordings in the studio. If a band is planning a live album they will most likely record numerous shows from the tour. That's just my opinion.
Doesn't this happen a lot anyway?
Yes. All I'm saying is that instead of re-recording parts, find another version from the tour.
I can get on board with that.
The thing with the live compilation format is that, for the most part, it ruins the illusion of being a single concert, especially when you shootouts to multiple cities on the tour in a single album.
I'm sure that doesn't bother some folks, but there are definitely fans who would prefer a live album come from a single show, to capture a singular performance from one night. I guess that's the difference between something like Rush's Exit...Stage Left and Rush In Rio, wherein the former was compiled from two tours with some of the best takes of those songs from those tours, while the latter is from the last night of their Vapor Traila tour, and the album captures the whole show as a representation of that tour, warts and all. I don't think RIR has (m)any overdubs, and it's infamous for keeping as much crowd noise and audience participation as possible, sometimes almost as equal to the band's levels! For some this may be the optimal way a live album should sound, with the audience in the mix, because what else sets it apart from a studio recording?
I think a band should do something weird. Since so many bands play to a click track now, it means every song is played identically every night.
I think it'd be weird fun to have the drums from one show, the guitar from another, bass from another, etc etc. So you have a perfectly synced performance but that none of the instruments were actually together on that song but all are live.
Isn't that how most studio albums are recorded these days? One instrument at a time?
-Marc.
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Respectfully Letter M, Sides 1, 3 and 4 of ESL were taken from a single performance in Montreal on the MP tour, while Side 2 was culled from a 2-night stand in Glasgow on the PeW tour. So it’s not as mish-mash as some claim (other than the order of songs is completely rearranged). But it is 75% from a single performance with a few extras.
In that way, it’s not terribly different from Live After Death (hailed by many as one of the greatest live albums ever) which was taken from a 4-night stand at Long Beach and Side 4 taken from a show in Hammersmith.
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Respectfully Letter M, Sides 1, 3 and 4 of ESL were taken from a single performance in Montreal on the MP tour, while Side 2 was culled from a 2-night stand in Glasgow on the PeW tour. So it’s not as mish-mash as some claim (other than the order of songs is completely rearranged). But it is 75% from a single performance with a few extras.
In that way, it’s not terribly different from Live After Death (hailed by many as one of the greatest live albums ever) which was taken from a 4-night stand at Long Beach and Side 4 taken from a show in Hammersmith.
Fair enough. I just recall it being from two separate tours and at least two separate shows. It's definitely how a lot of prog live albums were done back then, like Yessongs, Seconds Out, Two For The Show etc. Nowadays they all tend to be from single shows, and I'm not sure if that's better or worse when it comes to needing/wanting to do overdubs in post to make the concert a marketable live album.
-Marc.
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Also, more annoying to me than overdubs that I can't even discern is piped in crowd noise.
The mics recording what's happening on stage doesn't pick up a lot of audience noise. Straight sound board recordings often sound like the band is playing to an empty venue until the song is over, and then you only hear some faint hollering and whistling. If a band is recording for a live album, they'll have mics facing the audience, recording them to be mixed in later. It's up to the producers to not over do it and not have the noise overpower the music.
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As a huge fan of those classic 70s “live” albums, I don’t have any strong thoughts on touching them up. They all sounded far better and more alive than the studio albums ever did.
Now, live albums just don’t sound live.
My biggest bugbear is live DVDs, which I’m more likely to reach for now than a live album, when the action and sound don’t match up. Absolutely kills it for me.
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while the latter is from the last night of their Vapor Traila tour, and the album captures the whole show as a representation of that tour, warts and all. I don't think RIR has (m)any overdubs, and it's infamous for keeping as much crowd noise and audience participation as possible, sometimes almost as equal to the band's levels!
I gotta say that the audience "singing" YYZ might have been my favorite moment from any live album/DVD in the last 30 years.
Respectfully Letter M, Sides 1, 3 and 4 of ESL were taken from a single performance in Montreal on the MP tour, while Side 2 was culled from a 2-night stand in Glasgow on the PeW tour. So it’s not as mish-mash as some claim (other than the order of songs is completely rearranged). But it is 75% from a single performance with a few extras.
In that way, it’s not terribly different from Live After Death (hailed by many as one of the greatest live albums ever) which was taken from a 4-night stand at Long Beach and Side 4 taken from a show in Hammersmith.
That's what makes it seem so mish-mashed, as I noted this morning, with a song from the middle of the set leading off the album and then jumping around in the set. At least LVS was, in fact, the last song.
As far as Live After Death, it's REALLY hard to tell that the audio came from different shows (and the video from two of the four shows). Also, sides 1-3 represent the complete set list (except for the Murray/Smith guitar solo and the last encore, Sanctuary, the latter of which shows up on the re-release). Glad you mentioned this one because I need to make sure I bought one of the re-releases at some point because the original CD only included sides 1-3.
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Klaus Meine naming 4 or 5 different cities on World Wide Live never took me out of the moment at all. :lol But kidding aside, that album is an interesting one where it is clearly a compilation of different nights on the tour, and you are even told in the album sleeve which song is from where. But it is mixed as if it were one show. And, honestly, it feels like a single show. It is really well done, IMO. The fact that there is a mixing of different shows, there is obviously fake crowd noise to make the crowd noise levels sound the same, and there is obvious post-production doesn't bother me one bit.
And that brings me to my general take on the topic, which is: As long as it sounds good, I really don't care.
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As a huge fan of those classic 70s “live” albums, I don’t have any strong thoughts on touching them up. They all sounded far better and more alive than the studio albums ever did.
Now, live albums just don’t sound live.
My biggest bugbear is live DVDs, which I’m more likely to reach for now than a live album, when the action and sound don’t match up. Absolutely kills it for me.
Along these lines, while there are exceptions, it feels like a lot of newer live albums are mixed to make the crowd noise as low as possible. I could name a few where you wouldn't even know it was live if not for the clapping at the beginning and/or end of the song. Not saying I want the crowd noise to overpower the music, but hearing none (or almost none) just zaps it of that live feel.
What about when there are accidents or equipment malfunctions, such as amps blowing out, or strings breaking, etc.
Some bands might not be able to record multiple shows and have only the budget to release one show from the tour, and if something goes wrong on that one show, are they just screwed for the live album? Don't they deserve to be able to release a product that is, at very least, the song they wanted to play in full? Sometimes mics cut out or other such mishaps happen out of the band's control, and if there's an easy way to fix it for the live release, especially if it's just an audio release with no accompanying video, shouldn't they be allowed to fix it in post?
Well, an artist who can do whatever they want with it, as it it their live release and their music, so of course they are "allowed" to do it, but it's not really a live performance if they fix too much of it. It's just not. As has been said before, if we want perfect versions, that is what the studio albums are for.
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Respectfully Letter M, Sides 1, 3 and 4 of ESL were taken from a single performance in Montreal on the MP tour, while Side 2 was culled from a 2-night stand in Glasgow on the PeW tour. So it’s not as mish-mash as some claim (other than the order of songs is completely rearranged). But it is 75% from a single performance with a few extras.
The problem is that not only does it sound horrible, but it appears to be a mish-mash because of all the silly (and completely unnecessary) fade ins and fade outs and rearranging of the tracks. Had they made it sound like one complete performance and had it not been so doctored up in post-production to suck all the life out of it, I'm sure I would have loved it much more. After all, even AtWaS is compiled from their 3-night stand at Massey Hall, and that is one of my favorite live Rush albums. And the first 2 CDs from Different Stages are from all over, although you wouldn't really know it unless you looked at the credits. My only bone to pick with DS is that I am not a fan of mixing tracks from multiple tours.
In that way, it’s not terribly different from Live After Death (hailed by many as one of the greatest live albums ever) which was taken from a 4-night stand at Long Beach and Side 4 taken from a show in Hammersmith.
Sure, but LAD is comparable to AtWaS - it comes off as sounding like it's one performance.
It's definitely how a lot of prog live albums were done back then, like Yessongs, Seconds Out, Two For The Show etc. Nowadays they all tend to be from single shows, and I'm not sure if that's better or worse when it comes to needing/wanting to do overdubs in post to make the concert a marketable live album.
I like what Rush did for (I believe) both ASoH and DS: if they felt the need to fix a part, they flew in that instrument from another performance at another live show, thereby still keeping it live, just like what Glasser has suggested in one of his posts.
while the latter is from the last night of their Vapor Traila tour, and the album captures the whole show as a representation of that tour, warts and all. I don't think RIR has (m)any overdubs, and it's infamous for keeping as much crowd noise and audience participation as possible, sometimes almost as equal to the band's levels!
I gotta say that the audience "singing" YYZ might have been my favorite moment from any live album/DVD in the last 30 years.
Amen! That is definitely an example where keeping the audience noise higher works in favor of the live album.
While I'm guessing I'm in the minority, I will always have a soft spot for Grace Under Pressure Live. The audience noise is higher in the mix, but that all performance to me feels sooooo alive. Part of it may be because it was the first time I ever saw my (then) favorite band on TV before I ever started seeing concerts.
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As a huge fan of those classic 70s “live” albums, I don’t have any strong thoughts on touching them up. They all sounded far better and more alive than the studio albums ever did.
I think mixing had a lot to do with it. Ron Nevison did a great job on Strangers In The Night as he very neatly mixed in two songs that weren't even played on that tour.
I compare that to the god awful drop in of Southbound from Thin Lizzy's Live And Dangerous, or Hard Luck Woman (and to a lesser extent Tomorrow And Tonight) on KISS Alive II.
Klaus Meine naming 4 or 5 different cities on World Wide Live never took me out of the moment at all. :lol But kidding aside, that album is an interesting one where it is clearly a compilation of different nights on the tour, and you are even told in the album sleeve which song is from where. But it is mixed as if it were one show. And, honestly, it feels like a single show. It is really well done, IMO. The fact that there is a mixing of different shows, there is obviously fake crowd noise to make the crowd noise levels sound the same, and there is obvious post-production doesn't bother me one bit.
And that brings me to my general take on the topic, which is: As long as it sounds good, I really don't care.
I agree with the bolded. That's why I really still love KISS Alive or Unleashed In The East. They still have a sound that at least leans live.
I must say though that I think Worldwide Live is....oof. I really don't like how it sounds. It's been a while, but the last time I listened to it, I couldn't finish it. I muchly prefer Tokyo Tapes.
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I agree about fade ins and fade outs on live albums...a big no-no. I still love Styx's Return to Paradise, but why they felt the need to fade in and fade out every single song is totally baffling.
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If you have ever heard DT bootleg Lost In The Sky? During Only A Matter Of Time the audio seamlessly goes from soundboard to audience recording at the solo section. Not sure why.
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I also think the fade in/outs bring things down a bit, but there are certain performances on ESL that give it a pass.
Side 3 is a continuous piece of music…and possibly one of the greatest “sides” of a prog live album in music history. That particular version of YYZ remains the Professor’s most recognized drum solo of his entire career. And Jacob’s Ladder and La Villa particularly shine. So ya, that’s why that album remains a favorite in spite of its mixing flaws.
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I think a band should do something weird. Since so many bands play to a click track now, it means every song is played identically every night.
I think it'd be weird fun to have the drums from one show, the guitar from another, bass from another, etc etc. So you have a perfectly synced performance but that none of the instruments were actually together on that song but all are live.
Blind Guardian actually did that for their "Live" album. (No, I'm not implying the album wasn't live, Live is the actual title of the live album. Glad they didn't name the following studio record "Studio Album" :lol)
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If you have ever heard DT bootleg Lost In The Sky? During Only A Matter Of Time the audio seamlessly goes from soundboard to audience recording at the solo section. Not sure why.
That always bummed me out about that bootleg - especially during *that* part of the show. I don't know the reason why, but I would assume it was because something happened to the soundboard recording at that point, and so they patched in an audience source instead of having an incomplete show.
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BTW, I just came across an interview with JL from 1999, and at the end the interviewer asked JL to give his thoughts about each DT release up until that time. His comments for OiaL give us a little more idea of how much touching up there was:
Well, I thought it was an exciting evening. I had a lot of fun with it. We did three hours of music in one night. An hour and a half, then a 15 minute intermission, then back on for another hour and a half. There were technical problems, but I usually don't have to deal with them unless my microphone cuts out (laughs). I know there were problems with the keyboards, and the guitar was cacking here, there, and everywhere and some of those things had to be mended or fixed because it was just unacceptable. But I think what I really like about that album is it really is a face-value double live album. There is no doctoring here, there, and everywhere, unlike what you hear a lot in today's musical environment. Because if you ever see any of those bands and then hear the live album, you go "uh-uh, there's no way."
Here's the link:
https://www.hardradio.com/hr3.html?https://www.hardradio.com/views/dt1.php3
(located on page 7)
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OK, but what about fake live albums, like Type O Negative's Origin of the Feces?
The liner note said this album was recorded in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn on Halloween of 1991, but it contradicts the fuller title The Origin Of The Feces (Not Live At Brighton Beach). The album was actually recorded in Systems Two Recording Studio a few miles from Brighton Beach, but produced to sound as if it had been recorded at a live show by adding crowd noises, banter with the fictitious audience, and even a song stopping because the venue supposedly had received a bomb threat. This was done to simulate some controversy the band had during the Slow, Deep and Hard tour in Europe.
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OK, but what about fake live albums, like Type O Negative's Origin of the Feces?
The liner note said this album was recorded in Brighton Beach, Brooklyn on Halloween of 1991, but it contradicts the fuller title The Origin Of The Feces (Not Live At Brighton Beach). The album was actually recorded in Systems Two Recording Studio a few miles from Brighton Beach, but produced to sound as if it had been recorded at a live show by adding crowd noises, banter with the fictitious audience, and even a song stopping because the venue supposedly had received a bomb threat. This was done to simulate some controversy the band had during the Slow, Deep and Hard tour in Europe.
That sounds like it's more of a concept album than a live album. :lol
-Marc.
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Kinda on-topic, but one thing I can’t stand is the frontman using the same canned between-song banter every night of the tour. Seen many bands do it judging from YouTube footage. Be spontaneous for crying out loud.
As far as the “live” topic, the less editing the better for me with JLB on a bad night being the exception, I can stomach almost any other singer’s bad night. As long as you have a killer guitar tone and the drums are punchy it should be good enough.
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Kinda on-topic, but one thing I can’t stand is the frontman using the same canned between-song banter every night of the tour. Seen many bands do it judging from YouTube footage. Be spontaneous for crying out loud.
Seems like an odd criticism of how someone does their job. Try fronting a hundred shows and see how different you make it.
I know it's art, but it's also their job. Time to clock in and make the donuts.
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I also think the fade in/outs bring things down a bit, but there are certain performances on ESL that give it a pass.
Side 3 is a continuous piece of music…and possibly one of the greatest “sides” of a prog live album in music history. That particular version of YYZ remains the Professor’s most recognized drum solo of his entire career. And Jacob’s Ladder and La Villa particularly shine. So ya, that’s why that album remains a favorite in spite of its mixing flaws.
Yes, yes, and more yes.
OK, but what about fake live albums
Not quite the same thing, but I always thought Dio's presentation of King of Rock and Roll as if it were a live track was pretty cool.
Kinda on-topic, but one thing I can’t stand is the frontman using the same canned between-song banter every night of the tour.
What Hef said, but also, who gives a rip unless you're attending at least a half dozen shows on a tour?
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Kinda on-topic, but one thing I can’t stand is the frontman using the same canned between-song banter every night of the tour. Seen many bands do it judging from YouTube footage. Be spontaneous for crying out loud.
As far as the “live” topic, the less editing the better for me with JLB on a bad night being the exception, I can stomach almost any other singer’s bad night. As long as you have a killer guitar tone and the drums are punchy it should be good enough.
I guess they would be more focused on the performance than the between song banter.
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Want a laugh? I was at the DT gig in Long Island, NY, when halfway through the instrumental show they introduced Steven Michael Stone as their new vocalist who ran out on stage with MC Hammer pants and a mullet. Sadly he was so awful that I literally felt embarrassed for him. I was watching the show with Charlie Dominici and he looked at me and said "this is what they kicked me out for?" The funny part was between songs Stone looked at crowd and yelled "scream for me long beach!!!" I guess he was listening to Live After Death that day!!!! That should have been a live album. Complete trainwreck! :rollin :rollin :rollin
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The real question is, did Long Beach scream for him?
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In fairness, Bayshore is less than 40 miles from Long Beach.
The real question is, did Long Beach scream for him?
Judge for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cW0TYJN7tc (and yeah, it's virtually unlistenable).
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BTW, I just came across an interview with JL from 1999, and at the end the interviewer asked JL to give his thoughts about each DT release up until that time. His comments for OiaL give us a little more idea of how much touching up there was:
Well, I thought it was an exciting evening. I had a lot of fun with it. We did three hours of music in one night. An hour and a half, then a 15 minute intermission, then back on for another hour and a half. There were technical problems, but I usually don't have to deal with them unless my microphone cuts out (laughs). I know there were problems with the keyboards, and the guitar was cacking here, there, and everywhere and some of those things had to be mended or fixed because it was just unacceptable. But I think what I really like about that album is it really is a face-value double live album. There is no doctoring here, there, and everywhere, unlike what you hear a lot in today's musical environment. Because if you ever see any of those bands and then hear the live album, you go "uh-uh, there's no way."
I'll be listening to both the official release and the boot for the show next week. FII Era time.
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Want a laugh? I was at the DT gig in Long Island, NY, when halfway through the instrumental show they introduced Steven Michael Stone as their new vocalist who ran out on stage with MC Hammer pants and a mullet. Sadly he was so awful that I literally felt embarrassed for him. I was watching the show with Charlie Dominici and he looked at me and said "this is what they kicked me out for?" The funny part was between songs Stone looked at crowd and yelled "scream for me long beach!!!" I guess he was listening to Live After Death that day!!!! That should have been a live album. Complete trainwreck! :rollin :rollin :rollin
Mike has talked about that night.
Apparently it was Mike who gave Steve a copy of LAD and said something along the lines of “we want to sound like this” (MP has always done this. “Inspiration corner”, “James, sing this part like Doug Pinnick”, “James, sing this part like Dave Mustaine” etc…etc…)
It sounds like Steve just took it WAAAY too literally.
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Want a laugh? I was at the DT gig in Long Island, NY, when halfway through the instrumental show they introduced Steven Michael Stone as their new vocalist who ran out on stage with MC Hammer pants and a mullet. Sadly he was so awful that I literally felt embarrassed for him. I was watching the show with Charlie Dominici and he looked at me and said "this is what they kicked me out for?" The funny part was between songs Stone looked at crowd and yelled "scream for me long beach!!!" I guess he was listening to Live After Death that day!!!! That should have been a live album. Complete trainwreck! :rollin :rollin :rollin
Mike has talked about that night.
Apparently it was Mike who gave Steve a copy of LAD and said something along the lines of “we want to sound like this” (MP has always done this. “Inspiration corner”, “James, sing this part like Doug Pinnick”, “James, sing this part like Dave Mustaine” etc…etc…)
It sounds like Steve just took it WAAAY too literally.
Brother, it was a nightmare. He couldn't sing live. I felt awful for the band, they looked humiliated after the show. I know I spoke to them after and I remember Rena saying " Aww come on, it was only his first show". She was always very very cool and optimistic. I will never forget that show. :facepalm:
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In fairness, Bayshore is less than 40 miles from Long Beach.
The real question is, did Long Beach scream for him?
Judge for yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cW0TYJN7tc (and yeah, it's virtually unlistenable).
My PTSD is flaring up after listening to that....... Again. :|
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The real question is, did Long Beach scream for him?
The entire small crowd, self included, was completely confused and shocked. That was the mood in the room, I'll never forget it. On some level it was a historic event to be at as a DT fan (and friend of the band at that time). They were so excited before the show. Just awful.
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Even though James doesn’t sound great on OIALT, I actually think the sound of the band on that album is better than LSFNY or Budokon which both sound kind of wimpy to me. The drums especially always sounded squashed on LSFNY.
Live at the Marquee is still DT's best sounding live album.
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Even though James doesn’t sound great on OIALT, I actually think the sound of the band on that album is better than LSFNY or Budokon which both sound kind of wimpy to me. The drums especially always sounded squashed on LSFNY.
Live at the Marquee is still DT's best sounding live album.
There's probaby a very good reason Live At The Marquee sounds as good as it does but I can't be too sure...
-Marc.
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Even though James doesn’t sound great on OIALT, I actually think the sound of the band on that album is better than LSFNY or Budokon which both sound kind of wimpy to me. The drums especially always sounded squashed on LSFNY.
Live at the Marquee is still DT's best sounding live album.
And that's why bands touch up live recordings before releasing them.
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Even though James doesn’t sound great on OIALT, I actually think the sound of the band on that album is better than LSFNY or Budokon which both sound kind of wimpy to me. The drums especially always sounded squashed on LSFNY.
Live at the Marquee is still DT's best sounding live album.
There's probaby a very good reason Live At The Marquee sounds as good as it does but I can't be too sure...
WHAT?!? Are you claiming they overdubbed somethings on that release!??!?!
Seriously, yeah. I don't know if you know this Curious Orange, but it's a well known and established fact that ALL of JL's vocals for that release were redone in the studio after the fact. Sounds great, but at least 20% of it is anything but live.
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Even though James doesn’t sound great on OIALT, I actually think the sound of the band on that album is better than LSFNY or Budokon which both sound kind of wimpy to me. The drums especially always sounded squashed on LSFNY.
Live at the Marquee is still DT's best sounding live album.
There's probaby a very good reason Live At The Marquee sounds as good as it does but I can't be too sure...
WHAT?!? Are you claiming they overdubbed somethings on that release!??!?!
Perish the thought.
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Even though James doesn’t sound great on OIALT, I actually think the sound of the band on that album is better than LSFNY or Budokon which both sound kind of wimpy to me. The drums especially always sounded squashed on LSFNY.
Live at the Marquee is still DT's best sounding live album.
There's probaby a very good reason Live At The Marquee sounds as good as it does but I can't be too sure...
WHAT?!? Are you claiming they overdubbed somethings on that release!??!?!
Perish the thought.
But it is pretty bad if they had to have JL re-record all his vocals after the fact. Between that and I believe the re-recording of a good portion of JL's vocals for the live tracks on ACoS, I wouldn't doubt that's part of the reason why OiaL and subsequent live releases had far more sparing work done to the vocals.
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Even though James doesn’t sound great on OIALT, I actually think the sound of the band on that album is better than LSFNY or Budokon which both sound kind of wimpy to me. The drums especially always sounded squashed on LSFNY.
Live at the Marquee is still DT's best sounding live album.
There's probaby a very good reason Live At The Marquee sounds as good as it does but I can't be too sure...
WHAT?!? Are you claiming they overdubbed somethings on that release!??!?!
Perish the thought.
But it is pretty bad if they had to have JL re-record all his vocals after the fact. Between that and I believe the re-recording of a good portion of JL's vocals for the live tracks on ACoS, I wouldn't doubt that's part of the reason why OiaL and subsequent live releases had far more sparing work done to the vocals.
I'd never heard that about the live tracks on ACoS. A shame because I always just assumed James sounded really good that night (and maybe those songs were a little easier to pull off live for him).
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Even though James doesn’t sound great on OIALT, I actually think the sound of the band on that album is better than LSFNY or Budokon which both sound kind of wimpy to me. The drums especially always sounded squashed on LSFNY.
Live at the Marquee is still DT's best sounding live album.
There's probaby a very good reason Live At The Marquee sounds as good as it does but I can't be too sure...
WHAT?!? Are you claiming they overdubbed somethings on that release!??!?!
Perish the thought.
But it is pretty bad if they had to have JL re-record all his vocals after the fact. Between that and I believe the re-recording of a good portion of JL's vocals for the live tracks on ACoS, I wouldn't doubt that's part of the reason why OiaL and subsequent live releases had far more sparing work done to the vocals.
I'd never heard that about the live tracks on ACoS. A shame because I always just assumed James sounded really good that night (and maybe those songs were a little easier to pull off live for him).
Well, there's a soundboard recording of the full Uncovered show circulating. You can listen to it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQhkAptEsRQ
I've never personally done a careful A/B comparison between the two, but I know others have commented about it in the past. And I know that the vocals were missing during the first part of Love Lies Bleeding, so they had to be redone.
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Then you get a band like Symphony X that won't put out a live album or dvd. 🙃 :huh:
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Then you get a band like Symphony X that won't put out a live album or dvd. 🙃 :huh:
Yeah, I've noticed that they've only ever had one live album, and it was so long ago too.
-Marc.
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Even though James doesn’t sound great on OIALT, I actually think the sound of the band on that album is better than LSFNY or Budokon which both sound kind of wimpy to me. The drums especially always sounded squashed on LSFNY.
Live at the Marquee is still DT's best sounding live album.
There's probaby a very good reason Live At The Marquee sounds as good as it does but I can't be too sure...
WHAT?!? Are you claiming they overdubbed somethings on that release!??!?!
Perish the thought.
But it is pretty bad if they had to have JL re-record all his vocals after the fact. Between that and I believe the re-recording of a good portion of JL's vocals for the live tracks on ACoS, I wouldn't doubt that's part of the reason why OiaL and subsequent live releases had far more sparing work done to the vocals.
I'd never heard that about the live tracks on ACoS. A shame because I always just assumed James sounded really good that night (and maybe those songs were a little easier to pull off live for him).
Well, there's a soundboard recording of the full Uncovered show circulating. You can listen to it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQhkAptEsRQ
I've never personally done a careful A/B comparison between the two, but I know others have commented about it in the past. And I know that the vocals were missing during the first part of Love Lies Bleeding, so they had to be redone.
I have long wished that the Ytsejam/LNFA releases would someday encompass the Ronnie Scott's show, and the shows that made up the OIALT set. I know they are out there, but i'm not a huge bootleg guy, and would rather give the money to the band for the "official" release.
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I'm fully aware Marquee was overdubbed. But the album has a great mix and sound, regardless of whether it was overdubbed or not. I was at both of the Hammersmith shows and JLB was screeching like a cat, yet on Distant Memories he sounds OK, I assume that was overdubbed too, but it still doesn't sound as good as Live at the Marquee. Surely ALL of DT's live albums have at least some level of overdubbing? In which case, I stand by my original comment.
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I personally love Marquee's instrument mix. I went years listening to that record without knowing that the vocals were dubbed over, but in retrospect makes sense as I kept thinking at that time JLB really knocked it out of the park with that one.
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There's been speculation that Iced Earth's Alive in Athens has had heavy post production work done to it, but even if that's true, it still sounds incredible, and very much live, with some mistakes included.
Unfortunately I haven't had the desire to listen to any Iced Earth for the past year.
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Live at Budokan, however, is warts and all, no?
Actually, close but not quite. There's four overdubs on it, according to MP's audio commentary for his L@B drumcam DVD.
- JR's rig went down as the show started so he had to redo the first minute or so of As I Am.
- James has one overdub in As I Am somewhere in the second verse when his voice cracked on a line. He redid it while still at the Budokan after the audience let out.
- MP overdubbed JLB's shaker in Hollow Years at Kevin Shirley's suggestion.
- MP botched a fill in Solitary Shell that he "couldn't live with" so he redid it.
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There's been speculation that Iced Earth's Alive in Athens has had heavy post production work done to it, but even if that's true, it still sounds incredible, and very much live, with some mistakes included.
Unfortunately I haven't had the desire to listen to any Iced Earth for the past year.
It took me about 10 months, then listening to the band felt normal again. I've never read anything about overdubs on Alive in Athens, though, I generally expect bands to do some on most live records.
It doesn't really bother me too much, though cutting and pasting Bruce's vocals into some choruses on Iron Maiden's Rock in Rio was goofy. Same with Halford putting in crowd noise on some live soundcheck performances on Live Insurrection. But it still feels live to me.
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I'm fully aware Marquee was overdubbed. But the album has a great mix and sound, regardless of whether it was overdubbed or not. I was at both of the Hammersmith shows and JLB was screeching like a cat, yet on Distant Memories he sounds OK, I assume that was overdubbed too, but it still doesn't sound as good as Live at the Marquee. Surely ALL of DT's live albums have at least some level of overdubbing? In which case, I stand by my original comment.
I think I've already said this earlier in this thread, but I (and I imagine most others) don't have a problem with minimal fixing where there are flaws, such as when the guitar dropped out during UaGM at the Score show and the examples in L@B that sfam2112 cited. But when the whole performance has to be redone in the studio after the fact, that's a whole other story.
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There's been speculation that Iced Earth's Alive in Athens has had heavy post production work done to it, but even if that's true, it still sounds incredible, and very much live, with some mistakes included.
Unfortunately I haven't had the desire to listen to any Iced Earth for the past year.
It took me about 10 months, then listening to the band felt normal again. I've never read anything about overdubs on Alive in Athens, though, I generally expect bands to do some on most live records.
It doesn't really bother me too much, though cutting and pasting Bruce's vocals into some choruses on Iron Maiden's Rock in Rio was goofy. Same with Halford putting in crowd noise on some live soundcheck performances on Live Insurrection. But it still feels live to me.
I wish I didn't know about the copy and paste thing on Rock in Rio because it's so obvious once you know, and it's as you said, goofy. It's probably the most unnecessary thing to do. I get syncing the crowd, but once that's done, there's no need to paste Bruce over top of it.
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There's been speculation that Iced Earth's Alive in Athens has had heavy post production work done to it, but even if that's true, it still sounds incredible, and very much live, with some mistakes included.
Unfortunately I haven't had the desire to listen to any Iced Earth for the past year.
It took me about 10 months, then listening to the band felt normal again. I've never read anything about overdubs on Alive in Athens, though, I generally expect bands to do some on most live records.
It doesn't really bother me too much, though cutting and pasting Bruce's vocals into some choruses on Iron Maiden's Rock in Rio was goofy. Same with Halford putting in crowd noise on some live soundcheck performances on Live Insurrection. But it still feels live to me.
I wish I didn't know about the copy and paste thing on Rock in Rio because it's so obvious once you know, and it's as you said, goofy. It's probably the most unnecessary thing to do. I get syncing the crowd, but once that's done, there's no need to paste Bruce over top of it.
Pretty sure there's a part in the Clansman during the crowd interaction bit where his voice overlaps itself.
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There's been speculation that Iced Earth's Alive in Athens has had heavy post production work done to it, but even if that's true, it still sounds incredible, and very much live, with some mistakes included.
Unfortunately I haven't had the desire to listen to any Iced Earth for the past year.
It took me about 10 months, then listening to the band felt normal again. I've never read anything about overdubs on Alive in Athens, though, I generally expect bands to do some on most live records.
It doesn't really bother me too much, though cutting and pasting Bruce's vocals into some choruses on Iron Maiden's Rock in Rio was goofy. Same with Halford putting in crowd noise on some live soundcheck performances on Live Insurrection. But it still feels live to me.
I reckon all the rhythm guitars are Jon. Was Larry really that fucking tight and in sync with Jons rhythm? I'm skeptical.
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I thought it was common knowledge that Alive In Athens was heavily overdubbed. I actually just listened to it last week. There's no way that is a live rhythm guitar track.
Still, it's an amazing listen.
I feel the same way about Live At The Marquee. Since it's basically an EP, I can get past the studio vocals.
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I thought it was common knowledge that Alive In Athens was heavily overdubbed. I actually just listened to it last week. There's no way that is a live rhythm guitar track.
Still, it's an amazing listen.
I feel the same way about Live At The Marquee. Since it's basically an EP, I can get past the studio vocals.
Jon has a reputation for being able to play rhythm exactly the same when recording. Maybe he redid Larry's parts and didn't tell him. He cares way more about rhythm than solos so maybe that's why he didn't fix the sloppy ones. It was mainly Randy's solos that Larry fucked up. He was pretty on point with his own.
Common speculation. There's no evidence of major post production work. I think someone said once they had first hand knowledge, but again, no direct evidence.
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There's been speculation that Iced Earth's Alive in Athens has had heavy post production work done to it, but even if that's true, it still sounds incredible, and very much live, with some mistakes included.
Unfortunately I haven't had the desire to listen to any Iced Earth for the past year.
It took me about 10 months, then listening to the band felt normal again. I've never read anything about overdubs on Alive in Athens, though, I generally expect bands to do some on most live records.
It doesn't really bother me too much, though cutting and pasting Bruce's vocals into some choruses on Iron Maiden's Rock in Rio was goofy. Same with Halford putting in crowd noise on some live soundcheck performances on Live Insurrection. But it still feels live to me.
I wish I didn't know about the copy and paste thing on Rock in Rio because it's so obvious once you know, and it's as you said, goofy. It's probably the most unnecessary thing to do. I get syncing the crowd, but once that's done, there's no need to paste Bruce over top of it.
I always assumed Maiden's live stuff was live; except for the infamous "Remember Tomorrow" b-side. There are some dodgy live Bruce vocals out there. Can you give an example from the Rock In Rio show (a show I have but am not note-for-note familiar with it)?
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There's been speculation that Iced Earth's Alive in Athens has had heavy post production work done to it, but even if that's true, it still sounds incredible, and very much live, with some mistakes included.
Unfortunately I haven't had the desire to listen to any Iced Earth for the past year.
It took me about 10 months, then listening to the band felt normal again. I've never read anything about overdubs on Alive in Athens, though, I generally expect bands to do some on most live records.
It doesn't really bother me too much, though cutting and pasting Bruce's vocals into some choruses on Iron Maiden's Rock in Rio was goofy. Same with Halford putting in crowd noise on some live soundcheck performances on Live Insurrection. But it still feels live to me.
I wish I didn't know about the copy and paste thing on Rock in Rio because it's so obvious once you know, and it's as you said, goofy. It's probably the most unnecessary thing to do. I get syncing the crowd, but once that's done, there's no need to paste Bruce over top of it.
I always assumed Maiden's live stuff was live; except for the infamous "Remember Tomorrow" b-side. There are some dodgy live Bruce vocals out there. Can you give an example from the Rock In Rio show (a show I have but am not note-for-note familiar with it)?
During the intro to Fear of the Dark, when Bruce says "you" to the audience, they overdub him on top of them with his line from a few seconds earlier. It makes no sense because he's signaling to the audience to sing it, so why put him on top, when throughout the rest of the show the audience is singing all kinds of lines by themselves.
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Larry was really good live. There is plenty of bootleg footage from 98/99 and 01 that verifies it. One of the reasons that Jon hired him was that he could keep up with him on rhythm guitar.
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Larry was really good live. There is plenty of bootleg footage from 98/99 and 01 that verifies it. One of the reasons that Jon hired him was that he could keep up with him on rhythm guitar.
Fair play then. Maybe I'm talking out my ass.
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There's been speculation that Iced Earth's Alive in Athens has had heavy post production work done to it, but even if that's true, it still sounds incredible, and very much live, with some mistakes included.
Unfortunately I haven't had the desire to listen to any Iced Earth for the past year.
It took me about 10 months, then listening to the band felt normal again. I've never read anything about overdubs on Alive in Athens, though, I generally expect bands to do some on most live records.
It doesn't really bother me too much, though cutting and pasting Bruce's vocals into some choruses on Iron Maiden's Rock in Rio was goofy. Same with Halford putting in crowd noise on some live soundcheck performances on Live Insurrection. But it still feels live to me.
I wish I didn't know about the copy and paste thing on Rock in Rio because it's so obvious once you know, and it's as you said, goofy. It's probably the most unnecessary thing to do. I get syncing the crowd, but once that's done, there's no need to paste Bruce over top of it.
I always assumed Maiden's live stuff was live; except for the infamous "Remember Tomorrow" b-side. There are some dodgy live Bruce vocals out there. Can you give an example from the Rock In Rio show (a show I have but am not note-for-note familiar with it)?
From the top of my head, check the 'not gonna take anymore' section. Bruce signals to the crowd but keeps signing.
From memory, Steve didn't like how out of time the crowd were during the times Bruce asked the crowd to sing. He simply then cut and pasted Bruce's already sung vocals from earlier in the songs over those sections.
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From memory, Steve didn't like how out of time the crowd were during the times Bruce asked the crowd to sing. He simply then cut and pasted Bruce's already sung vocals from earlier in the songs over those sections.
Because it wouldn't have made more sense to just shift the crowd singing up a few seconds instead? :facepalm:
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From memory, Steve didn't like how out of time the crowd were during the times Bruce asked the crowd to sing. He simply then cut and pasted Bruce's already sung vocals from earlier in the songs over those sections.
Because it wouldn't have made more sense to just shift the crowd singing up a few seconds instead? :facepalm:
He did though. The crowd singing on Dream of Mirrors is noticeably out of sync on the live stream, where it's not on the official release.
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I didn't know this was officially released.
https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/dying-to-live-forever-1993-dream-theater/aplhqwg4d6tqb
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I didn't know this was officially released.
https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/dying-to-live-forever-1993-dream-theater/aplhqwg4d6tqb
Hardly official. :lol
What show is that?
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(https://imgpile.com/images/wmuptG.md.jpg) (https://imgpile.com/images/wmuSHa.md.jpg)
Lords of Sound is amazing.
Tokyo Dragons is nice packaging, good quality.
*** Sorry for my awful photography "skills".
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What show is that?
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I didn't know this was officially released.
https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/dying-to-live-forever-1993-dream-theater/aplhqwg4d6tqb
Hardly official. :lol
What show is that?
Not sure but.... https://www.amazon.com/Dying-Live-Forever-1993/dp/B07ZRYYGC5
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I didn't know this was officially released.
https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/dying-to-live-forever-1993-dream-theater/aplhqwg4d6tqb
Hardly official. :lol
Exactly. It is a legally produced traditional bootleg (in other words, not sanctioned by the band) that has been successfully released due to certain loop holes that have come into existence for shows that were broadcast on the radio. And there's more than one from DT, as well as Rush and I'm sure other bands that have had their shows broadcast on radio.
Lords of Sound is amazing.
It's decent, but not amazing. Like most Kiss the Stone bootlegs, it runs too slow, and IIRC, there's part of at least one track (I wanna say TLF) that is missing.
What show is that?
I could be wrong, but I believe it's the same as Lords of Sound: Milwaukee Summerfest on June 29, 1993 (my first DT show)
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What show is that?
I could be wrong, but I believe it's the same as Lords of Sound: Milwaukee Summerfest on June 29, 1993 (my first DT show)
OK. I just listened to that a couple of weeks ago.
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I didn't know this was officially released.
https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/dying-to-live-forever-1993-dream-theater/aplhqwg4d6tqb
DJ Outro just missed my DT top 100.
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I didn't know this was officially released.
https://www.qobuz.com/us-en/album/dying-to-live-forever-1993-dream-theater/aplhqwg4d6tqb
DJ Outro just missed my DT top 100.
:rollin
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Live at Budokan, however, is warts and all, no?
Actually, close but not quite. There's four overdubs on it, according to MP's audio commentary for his L@B drumcam DVD.
- JR's rig went down as the show started so he had to redo the first minute or so of As I Am.
- James has one overdub in As I Am somewhere in the second verse when his voice cracked on a line. He redid it while still at the Budokan after the audience let out.
- MP overdubbed JLB's shaker in Hollow Years at Kevin Shirley's suggestion.
- MP botched a fill in Solitary Shell that he "couldn't live with" so he redid it.
All things considered, that isn't a whole lot of fixing for a 3 hour concert. I totally get fixing the stuff in As I Am, considering most casual listeners won't be checking out bootlegs, and that first song will be their first impression of the show and their live sound in general of the time.
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Wait, MP overdubbed James' shaker?! :lol
Poor bloke cops it for his live performances and now can't shake in time? Classic.
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Wait, MP overdubbed James' shaker?! :lol
Poor bloke cops it for his live performances and now can't shake in time? Classic.
It was cutting in and out of the vocal mic. I don't think it would've been noticeable. Hell, I don't really notice it now with it "fixed". ;D But I don't regularly watch it these days so I can't remember if I heard it or not.
But Kevin Shirley thought it was a nice embellishment to the song and suggested keeping it so he had MP overdub it.
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Wait, MP overdubbed James' shaker?! :lol
Poor bloke cops it for his live performances and now can't shake in time? Classic.
It was cutting in and out of the vocal mic. I don't think it would've been noticeable. Hell, I don't really notice it now with it "fixed". ;D But I don't regularly watch it these days so I can't remember if I heard it or not.
But Kevin Shirley thought it was a nice embellishment to the song and suggested keeping it so he had MP overdub it.
Fair enough, that makes sense.
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Wait, MP overdubbed James' shaker?! :lol
Poor bloke cops it for his live performances and now can't shake in time? Classic.
It was cutting in and out of the vocal mic. I don't think it would've been noticeable. Hell, I don't really notice it now with it "fixed". ;D But I don't regularly watch it these days so I can't remember if I heard it or not.
But Kevin Shirley thought it was a nice embellishment to the song and suggested keeping it so he had MP overdub it.
Live at Budokan, however, is warts and all, no?
Actually, close but not quite. There's four overdubs on it, according to MP's audio commentary for his L@B drumcam DVD.
- JR's rig went down as the show started so he had to redo the first minute or so of As I Am.
- James has one overdub in As I Am somewhere in the second verse when his voice cracked on a line. He redid it while still at the Budokan after the audience let out.
- MP overdubbed JLB's shaker in Hollow Years at Kevin Shirley's suggestion.
- MP botched a fill in Solitary Shell that he "couldn't live with" so he redid it.
All things considered, that isn't a whole lot of fixing for a 3 hour concert. I totally get fixing the stuff in As I Am, considering most casual listeners won't be checking out bootlegs, and that first song will be their first impression of the show and their live sound in general of the time.
Did not know these, thanks for the info. I think I've listened to and watched Budokan the most among all DT live releases.
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Van Halen - Live: Right Here, Right Now
Maligned for being re-recorded in the studio. But it’s still one of my favorites!
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Best way to present a live album/DVD:
-Record over a multiple show stand at a venue so you can pick the best version of each song.
-Make sure you can get a good recording of every instrument from the soundboard so you can balance the mix in post without editing/re-recording any of the actual parts in post.
-Discreetly hide a few microphones in the front, middle, and back of the venue or at least have a good directional mic set up by the soundboard to get a good room recording to be mixed in during post.
This should help give a good recording without having to re-record parts in post and will help keep it sounding live. I feel like this is obvious, but so many bands and artists are too focus on having a GREAT “live” recording instead of having a great LIVE recording.
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Best way to present a live album/DVD:
-Record over a multiple show stand at a venue so you can pick the best version of each song.
I remember watching the Delicate Sound of Thunder VHS way back when and amazed that I never seemed to see any cameras. I couldn't figure out how that could be for the longest time!
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I just listened to the remixed version of Delicate Sound Of Thunder. I'm not sure how I feel about it yet. I wonder if this is a case of "less is more". I really liked the original release, and I while I like the completeness of the new version, it doesn't "feel" right. And as much as I like Rick Wright, especially as a singer, I don't care for his vocals in "Comfortably Numb". He oversings the Roger Waters parts pretty bad; Roger's droll, flat delivery was sometimes PERFECT for the songs he sand, and CN was one of them.
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I prefer my live albums to just be one concert start to finish. I get why people want extra production/touch ups after, or multiple nights and picking the best performance but to me part of the charm of a live album is you get the performance in its entirety. If there's a small mistake it might add to the charm of it.
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I prefer my live albums to just be one concert start to finish. I get why people want extra production/touch ups after, or multiple nights and picking the best performance but to me part of the charm of a live album is you get the performance in its entirety. If there's a small mistake it might add to the charm of it.
This. :tup
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Lots of albums have been mentioned in this thread, but I don't think anyone mentioned All the World's a Stage (Rush).
It's the entire show performed during the three night stand at Massey Hall. Nothing added and nothing not included (except on the original CD release), although I know that Fly by Night/In the Mood and Something for Nothing were moved around to make everything fit the vinyl format.
Any other fiddling around with this one (my second favorite live album of all time)?
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Lots of albums have been mentioned in this thread, but I don't think anyone mentioned All the World's a Stage (Rush).
It's the entire show performed during the three night stand at Massey Hall. Nothing added and nothing not included (except on the original CD release), although I know that Fly by Night/In the Mood and Something for Nothing were moved around to make everything fit the vinyl format.
Any other fiddling around with this one (my second favorite live album of all time)?
Not that I'm aware of other than the fact that original CD versions left off "What You're Doing" due to length constraints.
http://www.2112.net/powerwindows/alltheworldsastage.html
-Marc.
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Lots of albums have been mentioned in this thread, but I don't think anyone mentioned All the World's a Stage (Rush).
It's the entire show performed during the three night stand at Massey Hall. Nothing added and nothing not included (except on the original CD release), although I know that Fly by Night/In the Mood and Something for Nothing were moved around to make everything fit the vinyl format.
Any other fiddling around with this one (my second favorite live album of all time)?
Good call! One of my faves too. What's your favorite live album?