DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: WildRanger on August 21, 2021, 02:32:44 PM
-
What's your pick here and why?
-
I know it’s a popular album here but Train of Thought comes in the lower part of their discography for me. I find it a bit one-dimensional and too much of a shredfest. ADTOE is much more varied and melodic which is more of the DT that I enjoy.
-
Close but going with ADToE.
ToT is very consistent but songs are a bit overlong- could have used some editing. They wrote the album in 3 weeks, and as freaking amazing as that is, I think it also shows a bit. Portnoy is the standout here IMO and his metal sensibilities give the album a certain authenticity and credibility.
While ADoTE is slightly less consistent, it has much higher highs. “Breaking All Illusions” is now a classic. “Far From Heaven” and “Beneath the Surface” are arguably some of the best ballads the band has done since the Kevin Moore days. Even the lead off single “On the Backs of Angels” has aged surprisingly well, (compared to the later singles “Enemy Inside” and “Untethered Angel” which really haven’t). Inspired performances by JP and JR throughout.
-
A Dramatic Turn of Events would normally be my answer. However, Train of Thought has really moved up in my book lately. That’s my pick
-
I’ll also say, much has been said about the production of ADoTE and a lot of the criticism is valid. But listening to it recently, it definitely has a certain atmosphere to it, a vibe. I’ve actually come to appreciate that it doesn’t sound perfect, a bit rough around the edges, but (at least to my ears) it doesn’t sound sterile or have that copy paste Pro Tools feel.
Basically, what I’m trying to say is that (much like Metallica’s …And Justice For All, as an extreme example) I like the fact that it has a distinctive sound and feel to it, for better or worse.
-
TOT by miles, no contest.
-
I know it’s a popular album here but Train of Thought comes in the lower part of their discography for me. I find it a bit one-dimensional and too much of a shredfest. ADTOE is much more varied and melodic which is more of the DT that I enjoy.
This.
Especially the bold part
-
I don't listen to Dream Theater to get my metal. I wouldn't call ToT a shredfest either.
I literally never listen to ToT. I'm not one of those guys that rags constantly on how an album sounds, but ToT was their first album using pro-tools, right?, and it sounds like that. It sounds like it came out of a computer. There's no life or organicness to these tracks. They simply don't breathe.
I consider Endless Sacrifice close to a Top 10 DT track, and This Dying Soul isn't far behind it. I also really like ITNOG. SoC is excellent as well. But I don't care for As I Am, and not a huge fan of HTF.
But I will happily listen to Live At Budokan to hear these tracks.
That said, ADTOE simply has better songs IMO. Breaking All Illusions, Lost Not Forgotten, and Outcry are all amazing. And the supporting tracks are outstanding as well..TITL, BITS, FFH, BTS.
-
interesting poll with two of my top 3 all time Dream Theater albums involved. They are both at the other end of the Dream Theater spectrum. One which is based in the metalside, the other one which is so melodic and harmonic. They are both very emotional, although where Train of Thought evolves in the darker side of it (anger and frustration)… has a Dramatic Turn of Events the kind of positive balance, which feels like the sum the split when Portnoy left the band and Mangini who came. Less arguing, more peace.
I voted for the Train because growing up Metallica was my favorite band, I wasn’t aware of Dream Theater back then.
-
I’m someone who leans heavily towards the progressive side of Dream Theater and while I’m bummed they went the direction they did with TOT I just think it’s a better album. ADTOE is my least favorite DT album so this was an easy poll for me despite TOT falling in the middle of the pack in DT’s catalogue and despite it not being the style of music I prefer from DT.
-
TOT for me, though ADTOE isn't too far behind - they're my number 2 and 3 DT albums.
TOT was the first album to really hook me into the band, as I was coming in more from the metal side, having not really discovered prog at that point. It was my #1 for a while before I&W took over. So it'll always be a special album for me.
ADTOE is great too, though I'm not a huge fan of BMUBMD and FFH is one of my least favourite DT ballads, so they bring it down slightly.
-
TOT is far from a shredfest.
-
While TOT was the band's newest album when I became a fan (mid-to-late 2004), and I listened to it A LOT (so much so that my original CD got VERY used and scratchy after a lot of travel and play that I had to buy another copy to make sure I had a decent disc to rip from), I still like ADTOE more.
It just has a bit more variety for me, and honestly, ADTOE is probably the last DT album I fully enjoyed 100%, and I would rank it in the upper-half of my favorite DT albums while TOT would be in the lower half.
-Marc.
-
:lol
Wrong thread.
:lol
Thanks Wim.
-
Madman, aren’t you in the wrong poll / thread? 😉
-
Tough call. TOT holds a special place in my heart because it was their newest album when I was becoming a fan. On the other hand, I think that ADTOE is ultimately a bit more consistent and representative of the Dream Theater sound. I think I'll pick ADTOE, but it's a fairly close one for me.
-
Hmmm...
Train of Thought has DT's best instrumental (SC) and an epic closer (ITNOG). As I Am is a really good metal song. Vacant is cool, but it's not tipping the balance of anything. The album would be better without TDS and HYF, which are, for me, bottom tier DT songs.
ADTOE is primarily about three songs: BAI, Outcry and BITS. Don't like LNF, and OTBOA is just ok. The best thing about ADTOE as compared to TOT is that there's nothing on the level of TDS and HYF.
I think on volume alone, I have to give ADTOE the slight nod.
-
Hmmm...
Train of Thought has DT's best instrumental (SC) and an epic closer (ITNOG). As I Am is a really good metal song. Vacant is cool, but it's not tipping the balance of anything. The album would be better without TDS and HYF, which are, for me, bottom tier DT songs.
ADTOE is primarily about three songs: BAI, Outcry and BITS. Don't like LNF, and OTBOA is just ok. The best thing about ADTOE as compared to TOT is that there's nothing on the level of TDS and HYF.
I think on volume alone, I have to give ADTOE the slight nod.
You went in the complete opposite direction from me, but we both ended up at the same place.
-
The production decisions that were made on ADToE, on the physical product, make it impossible for me to vote for it. Great songs but completely unacceptable for any band, post 1969, to release a cd/album that sounded like that. I'm beating a dead horse so I'll stop now.
ToT was in regular rotation for the better part of 8 months but I agree that it could have benefited by being trimmed down a bit. Oddly, As I Am might be my favorite from that album. Straight up metal song with great riffing that stays on point.
-
I like both albums a lot. But ADTOE is in my top 3. TOT is in my bottom 3. So easy choice.
-
ADTOE is a top 5 DT album. TOT is cool, but not a top 5 DT album.
-
ADTOE, because I like it better.
-
ADTOE, because I like it better.
Your reasoning is crazy.
-
Two very different albums, however I rank both in roughly the same tier on my list of favorites, with ADTOE slightly ahead.
Against any other Mangini era DT album, TOT wins. ADTOE was an adrenaline shot to the band.
-
ADTOE, because I like it better.
Your reasoning is crazy.
It's all subjective.
Don't get me wrong, I like TOT plenty, but it's a bit of a one trick pony. Excellent driving album.
-
As random album pairings go, this is actually an interesting one for me, because these are my favorite DT albums from their respective decades.
Train of Thought gets my pick. I don't think the album has a weak moment. It's just relentlessly awesome from the last note of Losing Time/Grand Finale to the first of The Root of All Evil. I don't mind the shredding on songs like This Dying Soul; I actually would like to hear modern DT do a little bit more of that. I don't mind the Canadian rapping on TDS and Honor Thy Father; I think it's a bit of a weird choice presented in a vacuum, but it fits the songs. And I think, paradoxically for their "heavy album," it has one of their strongest bodies of melodies. This was my first DT album, and the "I wanna feel your body breaking" chorus of TDS soaring out above the heavy riffing that precedes it was one of the first moments, maybe the first moment, when I thought, "Whoa, this band is something special."
I like ADTOE a lot, but it has some songs that I don't connect with as well as the weakest ToT songs—This is the Life and Build Me Up, Break Me Down, at least. Far From Heaven/Breaking All Illusions is a stunning pair that tops the Vacant/Stream of Consciousness pair, and includes perhaps my favorite DT song in BAI, but In the Name of God, Endless Sacrifice and This Dying Soul all might come before my third-place ADTOE song
-
ADTOE, because I like it better.
Your reasoning is crazy.
It's all subjective.
Don't get me wrong, I like TOT plenty, but it's a bit of a one trick pony. Excellent driving album.
I was being sarcastic because of the simplicity of “I picked the one I like” explanation. I forget how everything comes across literally in text.
-
I love em both, but ADTOE has my favorite DT ballad ("This is the Life") and a top-3 rocker ("Bridges in the Sky"), so I'm going with that one.
That all being said, ask me again tomorrow and I might flip flop.
-
ToT was also the "new album" for me when I became a fan and God knows I listened to that over and over and over when it hit but I went with ADTOE.
Honestly, the songs I can sit down and really enjoy, beginning to end, are As I Am, Vacant and In the Name of God. The other tracks are good (Honor Thy Father being the weak link) but I think they go on for too long. Not exactly a "shredfest", hahah, but that have their little tangents where I'm just waiting for it to end.
ADTOE is probably considered a "safe" album by DT standards but I don't think anything's wrong with DT playing to their strengths.
-
When it comes to rock/metal I value production more. I like both albums musically but ADTOE's production is a complete failure. So ToT win for me.
-
Went with ADTOE, mostly because of songs like This is the life and Breaking all Illusions. TOT is great and all, but it came out at a time when I had a slump as far as my DT interest goes, while I was listening very actively around ADTOE, and that made the latter album stick a little better in my mind. I have fond memories of walking around with my first child in a stroller (she would only fall asleep if we wheeled her around...), while listening to ADTOE over and over again, really digesting the album.
-
Not much of a headscratcher..
Train of Thought was the first real low point for DT. The heaviness seems so forced its almost unlistenable. Feels like they were trying to prove something with the bucket full of pointless riffs and a serious lack of decent melodies. Point made. I had been a huge fan for 10 years before ToT but completely lost interest at that point.
While Octavarium and BCaSL had their moments, I still wasn't completely on board. Weirdly enough, Mike's unfortunate sacking was a blessing in disguise. Their superb return-to-form, A Dramatic Turn of Events was like a breath of fresh air. Finally the melodies and imagination were back. In my opinion, ADToE is by far their best album in this millennium.
-
MP was sacked? I'll give you that they called his bluff, but sacked?
-
Train of Thought by many light years!
-
.
-
Train of Thought was the first real low point for DT. The heaviness seems so forced its almost unlistenable. Feels like they were trying to prove something with the bucket full of pointless riffs and a serious lack of decent melodies. Point made.
+1 . Makes me cringe hard. JP and MP should have gone off and done a proper heavy side project with some other peeps. TOT just sounds silly
-
My favourite moments in TOT are Vacant and ITTOG. All rest is boring metal, totally outside DT's area of confidence.
ADTOE contains a lot of variety and many masterpieces (outcry, breaking all illusions,...) and I also appreciate the production, it fits the mood of the album (except for Along for the ride, where the snare sound is a total disaster)
So, ADTOE >>>> ToT
-
Despite the heaviness and thrashiness of ToT, I find Vacant to be the most beautiful piece of music between both albums. and I chose ADTOE for this poll.
Beneath the Surface from ADTOE is a close 2nd.
-
Train of Thought all the way. A Dramatic Turn of Events has some fine moments, no doubt, but ToT is so dark and heavy that it somehow resonates with me. Maybe it's because I'm into extreme metal and stuff. The songs on that album are somehow a prefect mix of drama and heaviness that it just tears your heart out.
-
TOT is old for me part of DT's "golden era" (roughly from SFAM to Octavarium). I agree it has major flaws, but on the whole I think it's musically superior to ADTOE. There aren't any songs on ADTOE that are all that compelling or interesting.
-
I usually don't participate in these kinds of polls but ToT came on the other day and it definitely seems like forced metal which I attribute to MP. I think the video in the making of ToT he said the "music has to have balls" or something to that effect which makes me think he forced some things.
It's still a badass album but ADToE seems more organic, production flaws and all. Also, I love the tone of JP's guitar! :metal
-
Despite the heaviness and thrashiness of ToT, I find Vacant to be the most beautiful piece of music between both albums. and I chose ADTOE for this poll.
Beneath the Surface from ADTOE is a close 2nd.
Vacant is really beautiful.
A beautiful song on a disastrous album.
-
TOT is old for me part of DT's "golden era" (roughly from SFAM to Octavarium). I agree it has major flaws, but on the whole I think it's musically superior to ADTOE. There aren't any songs on ADTOE that are all that compelling or interesting.
While SFAM to Octavarium is the band's peak, I think the golden era of DT is IaW through Octavarium/Score.
-
Despite the heaviness and thrashiness of ToT, I find Vacant to be the most beautiful piece of music between both albums. and I chose ADTOE for this poll.
Beneath the Surface from ADTOE is a close 2nd.
Vacant is really beautiful.
A beautiful song on a disastrous album.
I think ToT is great success. Probably their most controversial and most talked about album besides IaW. I think it rocks.
-
Train of Though without a doubt. Moving on from SDoIT when they decided to be more aggressive and take an even more metal direction for their new album, really surprised me back in the day. From the intriguing artwork (by Jerry Uelsmann) to the cool intro (from the Losing Time/Grand Finale outro) the album grabs you and it takes you for a relentless ride. The songs flow great and they release energy when they should without straying away from the dark/metal atmosphere. The instrumental sections carry the message of the song saying what needs to be said and never feel boring. The placement of the songs is great too, like Vacant and how it serves like an opener for SoC, awesome stuff. Of course it wouldn't be a proper DT album without an epic closer and for sure they wrote one of the best closing epics of their entire catalog. Especially the live version is legendary with the extended JP solo and JLB nailing the melodies.
ADToE is clearly an album that it's a product of it's time, it served as a plan for the band to prove themselves to their fans and help them transition with the least amount of losses to their new musical chapter. The production is weird, it had more songs but they don't always make for a better record and they weren't all that memorable with a few exceptions. Also the album felt partially as a remake of IaW..not that original.
In retrospect both albums have strengths and weaknesses but consider this, would you like to listen on the upcoming tour ASoC, ES and ItNoG or songs like Build me Up and Break me Down and Outcry..they're is no comparison.
-
I always see the comments that ADToE is a remake of I&W and I just don’t see it, musically or otherwise. I understand the track order follows a rough outline in regards to “feel” but that’s where the comparison ends for me. Two VERY different albums in my opinion.
-
Despite the heaviness and thrashiness of ToT, I find Vacant to be the most beautiful piece of music between both albums. and I chose ADTOE for this poll.
Beneath the Surface from ADTOE is a close 2nd.
Vacant is really beautiful.
A beautiful song on a disastrous album.
I think ToT is great success. Probably their most controversial and most talked about album besides IaW. I think it rocks.
No doubt. I remember a lot of metalheads who didn't like the band but started listening to it because of this record.
When I said disastrous album I meant it from my point of view, of course.
-
While Octavarium and BCaSL had their moments, I still wasn't completely on board. Weirdly enough, Mike's unfortunate sacking was a blessing in disguise. Their superb return-to-form, A Dramatic Turn of Events was like a breath of fresh air. Finally the melodies and imagination were back. In my opinion, ADToE is by far their best album in this millennium.
You mean, when he sacked himself?
-
While Octavarium and BCaSL had their moments, I still wasn't completely on board. Weirdly enough, Mike's unfortunate sacking was a blessing in disguise. Their superb return-to-form, A Dramatic Turn of Events was like a breath of fresh air. Finally the melodies and imagination were back. In my opinion, ADToE is by far their best album in this millennium.
You mean, when he sacked himself?
I have absolutely no idea why some people seem so intimidated about the words I used. Mike wanted to take a break from the band, the band didn't agree and decided to find a new drummer instead. I don't think Mike ever believed that would happen. Definitely it was not his decision to quit the band. That's the way I see it. Some might see it differently and that's fine by me.
I honestly don't understand why this should be discussed on this thread, anyway. I merely pointed out that DT got a fresh start without MP. This lead to their most inspired work in more than a decade. Even with the great album it spawned, I still prefer MP as a drummer over MM. A lot. It hurt to see him go, he's a great guy and to me he was the soul of Dream Theater.
-
Because you’re leaving out (or don’t understand) an important part. They didn’t just decide to get another drummer. Mike left the band. He posted a long statement on his message board that he quit. I know. I read it the day he posted it. He gave them an ultimatum, and they called his bluff. It’s not a small detail, it’s a very big one.
-
I have absolutely no idea why some people seem so intimidated about the words I used.
:lol Nobody is "intimidated" by your words. You simply used the wrong words, and were properly questioned about that.
-
[...]
In retrospect both albums have strengths and weaknesses but consider this, would you like to listen on the
upcoming tour ASoC, ES and ItNoG or songs like Build me Up and Break me Down and Outcry..they're is no comparison.
I personally take Build Me Up over any Train Of Thought song no doubt. And Outcry is easily one of their best songs, with an amazing instrumental section :lol
For the topic itself, ADTOE is my pick, one of my favourite DT albums and I've loved it since the first time I listened to it. A wonderful and emotional ride. TOT has never left my bottom 4 ranking (but I prefer it to Systematic Chaos, Black Clouds and Scenes any day)
-
He gave them an ultimatum, and they called his bluff.
And this is exactly the moment when they gave him rhe boot. How could Mike quit AND "give them an ultimatum". He wanted something that no one else in the band wanted, hence they decided to continue without him. He didn't get his way and was sacked, plain and simple.
-
Train Of Thought was the album that got me into the band. :hat
As for albums which debuted a new member?
Images & Words : James First Album
Scenes From A Memory : Jordan's first album
A Dramatic Turn Of Events : Mangini's first album.
:coolio
I still prefer MP as a drummer over MM. A lot. It hurt to see him go, he's a great guy and to me he was the soul of Dream Theater.
Yes. MP was my fave member of the band until the split. Then did he ever show his true colours...
-
He gave them an ultimatum, and they called his bluff.
And this is exactly the moment when they gave him rhe boot. How could Mike quit AND "give them an ultimatum". He wanted something that no one else in the band wanted, hence they decided to continue without him. He didn't get his way and was sacked, plain and simple.
Jesus, why is this difficult for you? They didn’t fire him.
Mike: we take a hiatus or I have to quit
DT: we don’t want to take a hiatus
Mike: ok, I quit.
Fuck ::)
That isn’t firing someone. I’ve been in similar situations as a supervisor at work. I was in the position of DT when someone threatened to quit. I didn’t give them what they wanted, and they quit. I didn’t fire them.
-
I imagine it's easier for the MP Warrior to say DT fired him 'just for helping out another band' than to admit Portnoy did anything wrong at all.
-
I imagine it's easier for the MP Warrior to say DT fired him 'just for helping out another band' than to admit Portnoy did anything wrong at all.
I think you’re right. It’s the same thing we see in U.S. politics these days. People lie to themselves enough that they believe it.
-
I have absolutely no idea why some people seem so intimidated about the words I used.
I have absolutely no ideea why you think anyone is intimidated about the words you use.
Mike wanted to take a break from the band, the band didn't agree and decided to find a new drummer instead. I don't think Mike ever believed that would happen. Definitely it was not his decision to quit the band. That's the way I see it. Some might see it differently and that's fine by me.
You see it wrong.
The reason they decided to find a new drummer is because they wanted to still exist as a band after MP quit. He told the band he wanted a 5 year break. They took some time apart, and he dropped his request to 1 year. They said, "We aren't taking a break. We're going to work. Are you coming or not?" He said, "No."
-
Here is Mike's original post. Note all the *I* statements.
Wednesday September 8th 2010
I am about to write something I never imagined I'd ever write:
After 25 years, I have decided to leave Dream Theater....the band I founded, led and truly loved for a quarter of a century.
To many people this will come as a complete shock, and will also likely be misunderstood by some, but please believe me that it is not a hasty decision...it is something I have struggled with for the last year or so....
After having had such amazing experiences playing with Hail, Transatlantic and Avenged Sevenfold this past year, I have sadly come to the conclusion that I have recently had more fun and better personal relations with these other projects than I have for a while now in Dream Theater...
Please don't misinterpret me, I love the DT guys dearly and have a long history, friendship and bond that runs incredibly deep with them...it's just that I think we are in serious need of a little break...
Dream Theater was always my baby...and I nurtured that baby every single day and waking moment of my life since 1985...24/7, 365...never taking time off from DT's never-ending responsibilites (even when the band was "off" between cycles)...working overtime and way beyond the call of duty that most sane people ever would do for a band...
But I've come to the conclusion that the DT machine was starting to burn me out...and I really needed a break from the band in order to save my relationship with the other members and keep my DT spirit hungry and inspired.
We have been on an endless write/record/tour cycle for almost 20 years now (of which I have overseen EVERY aspect without a break) and while a few months apart from each other here & there over the years has been much needed and helpful, I honestly hoped the band could simply agree with me to taking a bit of a "hiatus" to recharge our batteries and "save me from ourselves"...
Sadly, in discussing this with the guys, they determined they do not share my feelings and have decided to continue without me rather than take a breather...I even offered to do some occasional work throughout 2011 against my initial wishes, but it was not to be...
While it truly hurts for me to even think of a Dream Theater without Mike Portnoy (hell, my father named the band!!), I do not want to stand in their way...so I have decided to sacrifice myself and simply leave the band so as to not hold them back against their wishes....
Strangely enough, I just read an interview that I recently did that asked me about the future of DT and I talked about "always following your heart and being true to yourself"...sadly I must say that at this particular moment, my heart is not with Dream Theater...and I would simply be "going through the motions", and would honestly NOT be true to myself if I stayed for the sake of obligation without taking the break I felt I needed.
I wish the guys the best and hope the music and legacy we created together is enjoyed by fans for decades to come...I am proud of every album we made, every song we wrote and every show we played....
I'm sorry to all the disappointed DT fans around the world...I really tried to salvage the situation and make it work...I honestly just wanted a break (not a split)...but happiness cannot be forced, it needs to come from within....
You DT fans are the greatest fans in the world and as you all know, I have always busted my ass for you guys and I hope that you will stay with me on my future musical journey, wherever it may lead me....(and as you all know my work ethic, there will surely be no shortage of future MP projects!)
Sadly...
Your fearless ex-leader and drummer,
MP
Mike left the band - the band did not fire him. Mike made the decision. Not sure what's so difficult to understand about that.
-Marc.
-
It’s still literally one of the most amazing things I’ve ever read. It was really a seismic blow.
-
Here is Mike's original post. Note all the *I* statements.
"save me from ourselves"...
I'm sure there is a "MP wrote PBD" joke in there somewhere.
-
He gave them an ultimatum, and they called his bluff.
And this is exactly the moment when they gave him rhe boot. How could Mike quit AND "give them an ultimatum". He wanted something that no one else in the band wanted, hence they decided to continue without him. He didn't get his way and was sacked, plain and simple.
LOL...what?
In his own word: "After 25 years, I have decided to leave Dream Theater… the band I founded, led and truly loved for a quarter of a century."
He was not sacked/fired/given the boot. He quit of his own volition. Why did he quit? He quit because he wanted the band to pursue a particular course of action, and none of the four other band members agreed. He had a choice between (1) quitting and (2) not quitting and pursuing the course of action that the majority of the band wanted to pursue. He chose option #1; he quit.
-
I personally take Build Me Up over any Train Of Thought song no doubt. And Outcry is easily one of their best songs, with an amazing instrumental section :lol
For the topic itself, ADTOE is my pick, one of my favourite DT albums and I've loved it since the first time I listened to it. A wonderful and emotional ride. TOT has never left my bottom 4 ranking (but I prefer it to Systematic Chaos, Black Clouds and Scenes any day)
Well nobody is perfect :P But I can appreciate another fan's tastes. It's what make's it fun! Outcry's instrumental section is great and to be fair ADToE does manage to keep the flame alive, for what it was back then. At least it's better than DT12 -imo!
-
ADTOE is the dying gasp of a bygone era.
-
Here is Mike's original post. Note all the *I* statements.
Yes. I'm sure the abundance of ME and *I* in his statements became a meme around here.
" *I* tried to rejoin the band FOR YOU GUYS (aka I f-ed up and now I dont have either band) but THEY wont let me. (because they already made the doc and signed all the legal stuff to get mangini in the band as a full member). Ah well it's in THEIR court now. (aka it's all my fault but I can't admit that). "
-
It's a shame the other four guys have their own opinions about what's best for Mike Portnoy's band. :lol
-
It's a shame the other four guys have their own opinions about what's best for Mike Portnoy's band. :lol
:lol
-
Quitting: "I need to concentrate on other things, I quit."
If you say "I need this and that OR I'll quit" and the others say "You're not getting what you need" means that the others make the decision on your behalf. And that's the same as giving the boot. I'm not on anyone's side here - not a fanboy on either side - that's just the way it is.
And that's my opinion, to which I'm entitled. I've been in loads of similar situations - on both sides. No need for anyone to agree with it.
-
Quitting: "I need to concentrate on other things, I quit."
If you say "I need this and that OR I'll quit" and the others say "You're not getting what you need" means that the others make the decision on your behalf. And that's the same as giving the boot. I'm not on anyone's side here - not a fanboy on either side - that's just the way it is.
And that's my opinion, to which I'm entitled. I've been in loads of similar situations - on both sides. No need for anyone to agree with it.
In terms of logic you are objectively wrong. And pg1067 has already demonstrated this.
-
Wasn't part of the reason he left was he was thinking he could now be a full time member of Avenged Sevenfold from memory? He quit and said to them, "I quit DT so I can join you guys now full time," and they were like, "Whoa WTF, that was never in our thinking." :lol
-
Quitting: "I need to concentrate on other things, I quit."
If you say "I need this and that OR I'll quit" and the others say "You're not getting what you need" means that the others make the decision on your behalf. And that's the same as giving the boot. I'm not on anyone's side here - not a fanboy on either side - that's just the way it is.
And that's my opinion, to which I'm entitled. I've been in loads of similar situations - on both sides. No need for anyone to agree with it.
In terms of logic you are objectively wrong. And pg1067 has already demonstrated this.
Exactly. In Mike's own words:
After 25 years, I have decided to leave Dream Theater
There isn't any room for "opinion" on this issue. The facts are the facts.
-
Wasn't part of the reason he left was he was thinking he could now be a full time member of Avenged Sevenfold from memory? He quit and said to them, "I quit DT so I can join you guys now full time," and they were like, "Whoa WTF, that was never in our thinking." :lol
Yep. And after that is when he secretly went back to DT (or their representatives) wanting to come back to the band.
-
Quitting: "I need to concentrate on other things, I quit."
If you say "I need this and that OR I'll quit" and the others say "You're not getting what you need" means that the others make the decision on your behalf. And that's the same as giving the boot. I'm not on anyone's side here - not a fanboy on either side - that's just the way it is.
And that's my opinion, to which I'm entitled. I've been in loads of similar situations - on both sides. No need for anyone to agree with it.
First, we all have opinions, and we routinely debate the merits of those opinions. You don't get to short-circuit that discussion simply by declaring, "it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it."
Second, whether MP quit or was fired is a matter of fact, not opinion.
Third, when the man himself publicly states, "I have decided to leave," it's awfully odd for someone completely disconnected from the situation to say, in effect, "No. You didn't 'decide[] to leave;' you were fired."
Fourth, no one who was actually involved in the situation ever said that MP went to the other four guys and said, "I need us to take a break, and if you don't agree, I'm going to quit." IF that had happened, then you could make a semi-logical argument that, by saying "no" to the break, the band was, in effect firing him. However, everything that has ever been made public indicates that MP went to the rest of the band and said, "Hey...I need us to take a break. What do you think?" That's it. The rest of the guys said, "no." At that point, MP then made the decision to leave. In other words, he quit. Obviously, none of us were privy to those communications, but this is what everyone involved has publicly said happened. It was not, "give me what I want or I quit," and they called his bluff. Rather, it was, "I want this," and they said "no," so he then "decided to leave."
If you want to believe the world is flat, that's your call, but don't expect that you can post something that simply isn't true and not have folks call you on it.
-
Husband: "I want coitus five times a week and oral at least once."
Wife: "Not happening."
**husbands cheats on the wife**
Husband then blames the wife saying, "She made me do it because she didn't give me what I wanted!!"
*the peanut gallery roars with laughter*
-
I have to remember to ask my wife for some coitus. :lol
I have always found the split extremely fascinating. I also find it funny that MP mentions Hail first in his statement. Hail? Really?
I mean, he may have said "I'm gonna leave" and then the band replied "then leave then", but since MP takes responsibility for his decision, there's really no point in stating it otherwise. I've always felt that they called his bluff though.
My opinion, is that there must've been some ongoing strife that had built up and it hit a tipping point. Again, just musing here. It just seemed like JP and MP had differing opinions on the band's direction, and JP had the support of the rest of the band behind him. I don't know. That's how I've viewed it.
-
I was trying to be PC. :lol :lol (it is 2021, after all :P)
I think it ultimately boils down to, he wanted to take a break, the others did not. I have read tidbits elsewhere over the years that the relationship between Portnoy and LaBrie was far worse at the end that what most think, so that might have been a tipping point as well for Portnoy to just want to get the hell out of there once no one was on his side in the "taking a break" convo.
I still say, we, the fans, ultimately are the big winners in all of this. DT has been re-energized since his departure and consistently put out really good albums since (when they were trending downward quality wise at the end of Portnoy's tenure), and Portnoy has had Flying Colors, Neal Morse Band, two more Transatlantic albums and more solo Neal material. It is possible that Flying Colors never happens and Neal's solo band never mushrooms into the Neal Morse Band if Portnoy was still in DT, so I consider that a major positive for both Portnoy and the fans.
-
There has been NOTHING that Portnoy has done since he left DT that I have any remote interest in, other than LTE 3, JP's solo album, and a couple of listens to the first A-Mob album.
And that SUCKS!
-
Husband: "I want coitus five times a week and oral at least once."
Wife: "Not happening."
**husbands cheats on the wife**
Husband then blames the wife saying, "She made me do it because she didn't give me what I wanted!!"
*the peanut gallery roars with laughter*
Excellent example. I will use it in class. :lol
-
Wasn't part of the reason he left was he was thinking he could now be a full time member of Avenged Sevenfold from memory? He quit and said to them, "I quit DT so I can join you guys now full time," and they were like, "Whoa WTF, that was never in our thinking." :lol
Yes. Which led to MPs famous " You cant trust anyone these days " tweet. Translation I tried to have my cake and eat it now I have nothing so i'll just blame everyone else. ...
Plus all the "liking" of anti Labrie posts on facebook and "retweeting" anti Labrie posts on twitter and going " *I* didn't say them!"
But you agree with them which is the same thing.
-
There has been NOTHING that Portnoy has done since he left DT that I have any remote interest in, other than LTE 3, JP's solo album, and a couple of listens to the first A-Mob album.
And that SUCKS!
Well, you famously have (to put it nicely) weird taste in music :P, but for those of us who are into Neal Morse and all of the stuff Portnoy has done with him in their 399 bands, the last decade has been a goldmine. :coolio
-
TOT by miles, no contest.
Hear, hear, good show. Stream of Consciousness wins by itself, but add in the rest of the album... :tup
-
A Dramatic Turn of Events would normally be my answer. However, Train of Thought has really moved up in my book lately. That’s my pick
I’ve listened to both again recently as well as rewatched Live at Luna Park, and enjoyed all of those ADTOE songs live. I think I’m going back to my original instincts and say that I prefer A Dramatic Turn of Events .
-
My favourite thing Mike Portnoy did since leaving Dream Theater was leave Adrenaline Mob due to "scheduling conflicts".
He claimed he had no time left to devote to that band - when in other interviews he literally brags about how many bands and projects he's involved in.
I think it was pretty obvious he knew that band was terrible and wanted out.
The lowest point was the song " Feel The Adrenaline ". :lolpalm: Shockingly generic. Spelling errors in the lyric video and sounded like
Ultra generic background music for a Playstation racing game.
-
"Mike said it himself" is the funniest of arguments. Ever heard of all the "he left due to musical differences" bullshit, when in fact someone was a pain and was sacked.
Definitely I'm not saying that was the case here, but anyway for both parties it was an honorable thing to say Mike quit. Nut in reality it was a majority vote. He left the decision of his quitting to the rest of the band and lost.
-
"Mike said it himself" is the funniest of arguments. Ever heard of all the "he left due to musical differences" bullshit, when in fact someone was a pain and was sacked.
Yeah, those are put out by the band's publicist, not by, you know, THE GUY WHO LEFT.
Definitely I'm not saying that was the case here, but anyway for both parties it was an honorable thing to say Mike quit. Nut in reality it was a majority vote. He left the decision of his quitting to the rest of the band and lost.
Where do you get this shit? Both sides are in agreement on what happened, but you apparently think EVERYONE IS LYING ABOUT IT and ONLY YOU KNOW THE TRUTH.
He quit because he wanted a break and they didn't want to take a break. That's it. That's what MP says, and that's what the band says.
-
"Mike said it himself" is the funniest of arguments. Ever heard of all the "he left due to musical differences" bullshit, when in fact someone was a pain and was sacked.
Definitely I'm not saying that was the case here, but anyway for both parties it was an honorable thing to say Mike quit. Nut in reality it was a majority vote. He left the decision of his quitting to the rest of the band and lost.
Well...there are only five people who truly know what happened, and the four who have actually spoken on the subject have been completely consistent as to what happened.
What POSSIBLE reason would MP have had to lie about the circumstances of his leaving? Given all the things he DID say -- a lot of which was not well thought out/filtered -- do you really think that, if he had been fired, he wouldn't have said so?
As for a "majority vote," the vote was about whether the band should take a break. It was NOT a vote about whether MP would stay in the band. As I mentioned already, when the "break" vote went against MP, he then made a choice to leave.
-
Husband: "I want coitus five times a week and oral at least once."
I read this in the voice of Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory. :lol
-
I wonder sometimes how can we speculate without even knowing what truly was said when Mike proposed the hiatus to the band.
It is my opinion that always the truth is somewhere in the middle -most of the times. I'd like to think that yes, the guys wanted to continue and had to let Mike go..also Mike was not happy with the relationships and the music from DT at that time..he felt burned..and who can blame him really. Having all the responsibilities in the band..and then some.
But my question that probably will never get answered is why after 25 years the other guys simply shut the door and never looked back..I mean it's not like he killed anyone..He made another offer -and correct me if I'm wrong- to rejoin the band after the auditions but the guys had made up their mind..That's sad in my opinion..Mike being not only a founding member but a main composer/producer for the band and also having a very special relationship with the fans, having him leave so sudden was very cruel.
At least at this point in time -thankfully everyone seems happy and that's a good thing..
-
I wonder sometimes how can we speculate without even knowing what truly was said when Mike proposed the hiatus to the band.
It is my opinion that always the truth is somewhere in the middle -most of the times. I'd like to think that yes, the guys wanted to continue and had to let Mike go..also Mike was not happy with the relationships and the music from DT at that time..he felt burned..and who can blame him really. Having all the responsibilities in the band..and then some.
But my question that probably will never get answered is why after 25 years the other guys simply shut the door and never looked back..I mean it's not like he killed anyone..He made another offer -and correct me if I'm wrong- to rejoin the band after the auditions but the guys had made up their mind..That's sad in my opinion..Mike being not only a founding member but a main composer/producer for the band and also having a very special relationship with the fans, having him leave so sudden was very cruel.
At least at this point in time -thankfully everyone seems happy and that's a good thing..
You aren't wrong to raise those questions. But you are talking about a different issue. The issue being discussed is whether he quit or was fired. The facts on that are pretty much beyond dispute. That isn't a "the truth is probably somewhere in the middle" situation, because there is no middle--both the band and MP were consistent in what they said. Everyone involved agrees that he quit (although, admittedly, it is a bit more complex than the usual "quitting" situation, because Mike felt that, from his perspective, he had no choice).
What you are talking about is why (not whether) he quit. And, yeah, there is a lot of grey there because there is a lot we will never know, and a lot of information out there that invites speculation. For instance, the A7X situation. From Mike's perspective (at least, from what he has said publicly), that had nothing to do with the reason he left, but was in his mind a viable fallback position for him when making the decision. Others insist that he must have factored that in as a reason why he dug in and insisted that the band take a break, and that he wanted to play those big venues with A7X and make the money from being with them. We'll never know how much of a role that played. It's possible that Mike has trouble reconciling in his own mind how much of a role in played. Who knows? All anyone can really do is guess. And I personally don't find it very constructive to guess about what is going on in someone else's head.
-
I wonder sometimes how can we speculate without even knowing what truly was said when Mike proposed the hiatus to the band.
It is my opinion that always the truth is somewhere in the middle -most of the times.
I don't disagree with that. However, this isn't a situation in which MP says the light was red and the guys in DT say it was green. Everyone involved says the same thing: MP left the band of his own free will. There isn't a dispute, so there isn't a "middle" in which to find the truth.
But my question that probably will never get answered is why after 25 years the other guys simply shut the door and never looked back..I mean it's not like he killed anyone..He made another offer -and correct me if I'm wrong- to rejoin the band after the auditions but the guys had made up their mind..That's sad in my opinion..Mike being not only a founding member but a main composer/producer for the band and also having a very special relationship with the fans, having him leave so sudden was very cruel.
That's a whole different issue. Obviously, the band wanted to continue full-speed ahead. They made that clear to MP before he quit, and they did exactly that after he quit. It's been a while, so I could be off on the timeline, but I think you're right that MP's attempt to return occurred AFTER the auditions AND after they had already chosen MM as the new drummer. Could they have accepted MP's overture and let him return? Probably (although none of us know what contracts may already have been signed at that point). Publicly, they said they wouldn't have been comfortable doing that to MM. Privately -- and this is pure speculation on my part -- I think they were not completely unhappy to be without some of the things that MP brought to the table and were excited about taking some new approaches to some things. Again, that's complete speculation on my part.
-
"Mike said it himself" is the funniest of arguments. Ever heard of all the "he left due to musical differences" bullshit, when in fact someone was a pain and was sacked.
Yeah, those are put out by the band's publicist, not by, you know, THE GUY WHO LEFT.
Definitely I'm not saying that was the case here, but anyway for both parties it was an honorable thing to say Mike quit. Nut in reality it was a majority vote. He left the decision of his quitting to the rest of the band and lost.
Where do you get this shit? Both sides are in agreement on what happened, but you apparently think EVERYONE IS LYING ABOUT IT and ONLY YOU KNOW THE TRUTH.
He quit because he wanted a break and they didn't want to take a break. That's it. That's what MP says, and that's what the band says.
I've never said I know the truth. Nor have I implied there's much more to it than what was given out to public. I'm just saying that if MP said the band must take a break or he goes, the band had two choices and THEY chose the one where MP had to go. That's why the "Mike quit himself" is just a way to sugar-coat the situation, IMO.
I've witnessed or heard of quite a few situations, where things didn't end amicably, but both sides felt it's best to keep the dirt and bad blood from the public/fans/co-workers/etc. At most times it's the high road for everyone involved. Once again, I'm not saying this is the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me either. And no, I don't even want to know, it doesn't concern me in any way. I'm not on anyone's side here. Except my own, trying to explain the logic behind my words to all you defenders of the truth.
Now I quit. All the best.
-
Now I quit. All the best.
Awesome. Now that Portnoy’s lawyer is gone we can move on.
-
Now I quit. All the best.
Just so you know, the election wasn't stolen either..
-
Who remembers this spicy hot-take I posted here a couple of years ago? ;D
https://uncannyderek.com/2018/08/02/train-of-thought-dream-theaters-last-great-album/
-
Who remembers this spicy hot-take I posted here a couple of years ago? ;D
https://uncannyderek.com/2018/08/02/train-of-thought-dream-theaters-last-great-album/
I do. You’re still wrong. :lol
-
I'm just saying that if MP said the band must take a break or he goes, the band had two choices and THEY chose the one where MP had to go. That's why the "Mike quit himself" is just a way to sugar-coat the situation, IMO.
Neither he nor anyone else involved has ever said that he said that.
-
Now I quit. All the best.
Just so you know, the election wasn't stolen either..
Even though I should take this as a personal insult of the highest order, I also find this comment funny. 😅
-
Now I quit. All the best.
Just so you know, the election wasn't stolen either..
Even though I should take this as a personal insult of the highest order, I also find this comment funny. 😅
Good because it was a joke, and most certainly not an insult. :)
-
Dramatic Turn easily. (Them at their peak, technically and musically, at the time. No Porty. Finally sounding great. No drama, just nicely clean music. All killers, no fillers.) This album made me a DT fan again. (and it saved my life at the time)
-
A Dramatic Turn...was definitely missing Portnoy's drum SOUND. But I didn't need to hear the 16th note Hertas down the toms ever again.
-
ADToE hands down. I fell in love with DT's melodic range, and it'd be a really really hard argument for anyone to show that ToT is better in that regard to ADToE.