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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: WilliamMunny on April 08, 2021, 08:31:48 AM
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The other night my son asked, "When were you at your peak?"
Wow—now there's a loaded question. Of course, my instinct was to say, "I'm still at my peak," but after further discussion, we narrowed it down to athletic peak...(obviously not now:)
Still, the conversation got me thinking about my writing, and my music. I like to think that my best days are ahead of me, but the pragmatist within says, "sure, but if you stop now, are you at the top of your game?"
Applying this to music is where this gets real fun.
I LOVE Kiss, but if I had to pick one album that shows them at their peak, I suspect I'm going to have a real hard time making a case for anything post-78, despite my continued affection for their non-makeup years.
As this is a Dream Theater forum, I am going to place the magnifying glass on them:
So, for me, "Score" is Dream Theater at their peak.
That album, to me, represents my favourite incarnation of the band firing on all cylinders.
"Scenes" to "Six Degrees" to "Train of Thought" to "Octavarium" is an incredible run, and that live document, given the context of what followed, feels like a high-water mark.
Now, that doesn't mean I don't LOVE other eras, because I do, but if we're reducing this to a single point in time, then "Score" is that point for me.
Would love to hear everyone else's thoughts ;D
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Although my favourite period by them is 1992-2002, I'd agree that Score was their peak. It closed a great chapter in their career, and they started a new one with Roadrunner/Systematic Chaos. They didn't reach those highs again IMHO.
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I should add a caveat:
This assumes we are only taking into account what has already taken place—there does exist the possibility that the 'best' is yet to come :D
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Agreed on "Score".
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Mundane answer, but yeah, the run from Images and Words to Score is the best one, with SFAM being the best album and Score a wonderful closing chapter on the first 20 years of the band.
Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds were the band "floating" at the top they reached with Score, maybe unsure of what new grounds to thread, and since Dramatic of course started the Mangini era, let's see what DT15 will add to it.
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I would guess SFAM-era.
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There's a local sports talk radio host who makes a distinction between athletes being in their "prime" and being at their "peak." The distinction is that the latter is a much more narrow time frame -- maybe a single year in a player's career.
Using that rubric, DT's "prime" was from SFAM through 8VM, and the "peak" within that period would be SFAM, although the "peak" probably isn't significantly higher than the rest of the "prime" period.
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There's a local sports talk radio host who makes a distinction between athletes being in their "prime" and being at their "peak." The distinction is that the latter is a much more narrow time frame -- maybe a single year in a player's career.
Using that rubric, DT's "prime" was from SFAM through 8VM, and the "peak" within that period would be SFAM, although the "peak" probably isn't significantly higher than the rest of the "prime" period.
That's a great distinction—to take a step further, 'peak' probably means different things to different people.
Jordan's peak as a pure athlete ('91-'92 IMO) does not necessarily coincide with his peak as a basketball player ('96-'97)...the former is where he was a pure freak of nature, the second was where all of his skills coalesced with his mental maturity, offering him the best of both worlds. He couldn't necessarily jump as high, but Jordan was a straight up assassin during that 72 win season.
"Score" to me is akin to Jordan during that '96 run...James' voice wasn't what it was, but I think his voice had developed a whole lot of depth—the rest of the band had really gelled around Rudess as well.
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Interesting thread. From my perspective, I would say in terms of their albums, they were at their peak with SFaM and SDoIT. But in terms of live performances , I would say from 2002 through 2006 was their peak.
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2011 to present is peak DT to me. (all aspects)
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I rarely come up with questions for the guys, but I think if I ever get the chance to talk to Mike or John, I would ask them: in hindsight, was "2002 to 2006" fun? They seemed to be a band on the crest of a wave; playing sold out shows, playing legendary venues (Radio City, Hammersmith, MSG) getting GREAT gigs with other bands (Maiden), putting out self-produced opus' on the regular, their own boutique rarities label, annual Fan Club/Christmas CDs that sometimes rivaled their main releases... the image was one of upbeat - the shorter hair, the sort of "everyman" attire... maybe it was just me, in that I was really deep in the DT weeds at that point and I was getting a lot of joy from the music, but it just seemed a FUN time.
(I think this was from 2005:)
(https://i.imgur.com/3HEXLMp.jpg)
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I rarely come up with questions for the guys, but I think if I ever get the chance to talk to Mike or John, I would ask them: in hindsight, was "2002 to 2006" fun? They seemed to be a band on the crest of a wave; playing sold out shows, playing legendary venues (Radio City, Hammersmith, MSG) getting GREAT gigs with other bands (Maiden), putting out self-produced opus' on the regular, their own boutique rarities label, annual Fan Club/Christmas CDs that sometimes rivaled their main releases... the image was one of upbeat - the shorter hair, the sort of "everyman" attire... maybe it was just me, in that I was really deep in the DT weeds at that point and I was getting a lot of joy from the music, but it just seemed a FUN time.
(I think this was from 2005:)
(https://i.imgur.com/3HEXLMp.jpg)
Wow, James looked so thin!
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. That period of time just so happened to coincide with a time in my life where I had the time and funds to fully invest in my fandom. I saw many shows during the Scenes thru 8VM period, and honestly, every single time I left thinking 'that's the best they've ever sounded'
The band certainly has a great vibe today, and perhaps they are even more happier personally than they were then, but it just seemed like the two years sandwiching Score was pure magic.
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If we talk about studio albums, I'd say their peak was the SFAM - SDOIT stretch.
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I rarely come up with questions for the guys, but I think if I ever get the chance to talk to Mike or John, I would ask them: in hindsight, was "2002 to 2006" fun? They seemed to be a band on the crest of a wave; playing sold out shows, playing legendary venues (Radio City, Hammersmith, MSG) getting GREAT gigs with other bands (Maiden), putting out self-produced opus' on the regular, their own boutique rarities label, annual Fan Club/Christmas CDs that sometimes rivaled their main releases... the image was one of upbeat - the shorter hair, the sort of "everyman" attire... maybe it was just me, in that I was really deep in the DT weeds at that point and I was getting a lot of joy from the music, but it just seemed a FUN time.
(I think this was from 2005:)
(https://i.imgur.com/3HEXLMp.jpg)
That was probably the best the band has ever looked, and actually in tune with their music.
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If I take a step back and think about how the band will be remembered in terms of their place in history within progressive metal, there's probably no question that their peak would be, as many others have said, that 1999-2006 Scenes-to-Score period where the band were constantly shifting sounds, creating cult classics and providing perhaps the most involvement in regards to fan interaction and documentation.
Personally however, my peak (at least in terms of nostalgia) as a DT fan was probably around 2014 where DT12 was my favourite ever album and I saw one of the Along for the Ride shows, which, in spite of not being able to actually see the band due to my height, was an incredible show both in terms of sound and visual presentation with regards to lighting and the screen work. I prefer D/T now (although it didn't quite have that instant hit DT12 provided), but that freshness of being a new DT fan at that point made those experiences pretty special.
As for how they see it, I'd imagine they're most happy with themselves as they currently are actually. They've got a stellar, varied catalogue that they can draw upon, have recently produced their most widely appreciated album in about a decade, are involved in one of the most productive periods of their musical lives and have recorded an album that they seem tremendously excited about on top of that. Not to mention, they've also got the most harmonious lineup that they've ever had with zero inter-band drama, which shortly will also be the longest lasting lineup of the band's lifetime.
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As for how they see it, I'd imagine they're most happy with themselves as they currently are actually. They've got a stellar, varied catalogue that they can draw upon, have recently produced their most widely appreciated album in about a decade, are involved in one of the most productive periods of their musical lives and have recorded an album that they seem tremendously excited about on top of that. Not to mention, they've also got the most harmonious lineup that they've ever had with zero inter-band drama, which shortly will also be the longest lasting lineup of the band's lifetime.
I absolutely love the MM era and the quality of their releases has been fantastic (and can't wait for DT15 :metal :metal :metal).
About the bolded, I've been thinking about that for a while, and as crazy as it sounds, it's really close to happening. MM has already been 10 years in the band (as of November 2020) and the only other lineup that lasted longer than the current one, so far, is the SFAM to BC&SL lineup, which lasted for 11 years...
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Depending on how long we can stretch it out, it is hard to not say 1992-2002, but while I think the back to back of I&W and Awake was the band at their creative peak (by a hair over the Scenes/6DOIT combo), I would agree with the sentiments that the early 2000's was the band at their peak in the live environment.
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I feel like DT's peak was the Train Of Thought tour. Those shows were Zeppelin-esque.
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IMO: Studio Prime was 1999-2005, Live Prime was 2004-2006, Singular Peak was the Score show/album.
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Starting with SFAM up until Score is what I imagine their peak period to be, meaning getting more popular for every release and finally hitting their max at score. I remember Score tour to be sold out at a rather big venue in Sweden and even seeing Billboards for Octavarium Tour which i never seen before or since then. The feeling is that the concerts has gotten smaller and smaller since then (notably after Portnoy left). Now it's average venues and not fully sold out, but that's ok ofc.
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Starting with SFAM up until Score is what I imagine their peak period to be, meaning getting more popular for every release and finally hitting their max at score. I remember Score tour to be sold out at a rather big venue in Sweden and even seeing Billboards for Octavarium Tour which i never seen before or since then. The feeling is that the concerts has gotten smaller and smaller since then (notably after Portnoy left). Now it's average venues and not fully sold out, but that's ok ofc.
Yeah i think this sums up my feelings. Of course, being a teenager finding then during ToT, and getting to experience my first release during the Octavarium days, probably nostalgia plays a role.
But i also think that from a creative and commercial standpoint, SFAM up until Score is what probably made DT so big, and encapsulates all the different aspects of the band that i love.
I still miss their look during this era, i know it's silly but i liked them being "not another metal band" and looking like serious people who didn't care much about their image, but mostly their music.
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IMO: Studio Prime was 1999-2005, Live Prime was 2004-2006, Singular Peak was the Score show/album.
This, with the small change of studio prime being from 92 to 05!
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Images & Words is their best album, but this STRING of 3 albums is the best: Scenes from a Memory, Six Degrees and Train of Thought.
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Images & Words is their best album, but this STRING of 3 albums is the best: Scenes from a Memory, Six Degrees and Train of Thought.
Absolutely agree regarding that string of albums.
Also agree with an earlier post which said the Train of Thought shows were almost Zeppelinesque. Can completely see that. Every show felt like a truly unique event.
I'm completely biased given that I was lucky enough to attend but Score was also their highest point as performers for me.
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The tours for Six Degrees / ToT / Octavarium were also the pinnacle of the setlists rotation.
All Evening With shows, three hours of music, insane change from tour to tour, you never knew what was coming.
For Systematic Chaos they brought along an opener and so that reduced a bit the room for rotation, and by the time of Black Clouds, given also the package nature of the tour, Mike was by then scraping the bottom of the barrell since basically all the songs were already played in the 2002-2006 rotations.
It couldn't go on forver or better, it could have, but at a certain point the songs would have all returned to the set, after 2 or 3 tours of rest. But what a fun, unpredictable ride it has been in those three tours!
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The tours for Six Degrees / ToT / Octavarium were also the pinnacle of the setlists rotation.
All Evening With shows, three hours of music, insane change from tour to tour, you never knew what was coming.
Absolutely agree with this.
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Starting with SFAM up until Score is what I imagine their peak period to be, meaning getting more popular for every release and finally hitting their max at score. I remember Score tour to be sold out at a rather big venue in Sweden and even seeing Billboards for Octavarium Tour which i never seen before or since then. The feeling is that the concerts has gotten smaller and smaller since then (notably after Portnoy left). Now it's average venues and not fully sold out, but that's ok ofc.
Yeah i think this sums up my feelings. Of course, being a teenager finding then during ToT, and getting to experience my first release during the Octavarium days, probably nostalgia plays a role.
But i also think that from a creative and commercial standpoint, SFAM up until Score is what probably made DT so big, and encapsulates all the different aspects of the band that i love.
I still miss their look during this era, i know it's silly but i liked them being "not another metal band" and looking like serious people who didn't care much about their image, but mostly their music.
I agree with all of this.
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To me the peak was SFAM to SC. I loved that period of their music and thought they were firing on all cylinders. The tours were great during that time period as well. I think until D/T came out I thought they were passed their peak but I feel that D/T could fit right into that album run of SFAM to SC.
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To me the peak was SFAM to SC. I loved that period of their music and thought they were firing on all cylinders. The tours were great during that time period as well. I think until D/T came out I thought they were passed their peak but I feel that D/T could fit right into that album run of SFAM to SC.
Not to get off track, but I feel like the tour(s) for SC were a real low point (and it's not just because, until TA was released, I found SC to be DT's worst album). It's one of those things where MP got tons of praise for setting up the Progressive Nation shows, and I'm sure it was great for folks who liked the other bands, but a lot of us kinda thought they sucked because we wanted to see more DT. It's the same with this:
The tours for Six Degrees / ToT / Octavarium were also the pinnacle of the setlists rotation.
All Evening With shows, three hours of music, insane change from tour to tour, you never knew what was coming.
Not everyone liked that. I'd rather know ahead of time if I'm going to be subjected to The Great Debate than have it be sprung on me without warning.
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I am a fan who just didn't grow with the band (my interest in metal waned significantly by the time Train of Thought rolled around, and I just don't really care for the style of music they make these days). Images & Words through Falling into Infinity were the albums that existed at the time I fell in love with them (er, and the debut which I didn't get until later), and nothing they did after that really topped that run for me (SFAM was the first thing I got as a new release). SFAM and SDOIT have their moments that I do love, so I could probably say their peak was from 1992-2002, which is a heck of a run, really (and I kind of associate the first two LTE albums with that run as well). But the singular peak where everything was just firing perfectly (songwriting, playing/performance, and production) is probably still Awake for me.
I do agree that Score captured the band at perhaps the height of their ability as a live unit. That was an amazing performance and a nice kind of closing chapter on the band for me.
Edit: or what Kev said:Depending on how long we can stretch it out, it is hard to not say 1992-2002, but while I think the back to back of I&W and Awake was the band at their creative peak (by a hair over the Scenes/6DOIT combo), I would agree with the sentiments that the early 2000's was the band at their peak in the live environment.
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A Dramatic Turn of Events
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The other night my son asked, "When were you at your peak?"
Wow—now there's a loaded question. Of course, my instinct was to say, "I'm still at my peak," but after further discussion, we narrowed it down to athletic peak...(obviously not now:)
Still, the conversation got me thinking about my writing, and my music. I like to think that my best days are ahead of me, but the pragmatist within says, "sure, but if you stop now, are you at the top of your game?"
Applying this to music is where this gets real fun.
I LOVE Kiss, but if I had to pick one album that shows them at their peak, I suspect I'm going to have a real hard time making a case for anything post-78, despite my continued affection for their non-makeup years.
As this is a Dream Theater forum, I am going to place the magnifying glass on them:
So, for me, "Score" is Dream Theater at their peak.
That album, to me, represents my favourite incarnation of the band firing on all cylinders.
"Scenes" to "Six Degrees" to "Train of Thought" to "Octavarium" is an incredible run, and that live document, given the context of what followed, feels like a high-water mark.
Now, that doesn't mean I don't LOVE other eras, because I do, but if we're reducing this to a single point in time, then "Score" is that point for me.
Would love to hear everyone else's thoughts ;D
For what it's worth, I thought YOU peaked with "Grand Torino" but then you did "The Mule" so what do I know? ;)
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For Systematic Chaos they brought along an opener and so that reduced a bit the room for rotation, and by the time of Black Clouds, given also the package nature of the tour, Mike was by then scraping the bottom of the barrell since basically all the songs were already played in the 2002-2006 rotations.
It couldn't go on forver or better, it could have, but at a certain point the songs would have all returned to the set, after 2 or 3 tours of rest. But what a fun, unpredictable ride it has been in those three tours!
I wouldn't say that MP was scraping the bottom of the barrel by the time they got to the BCaSL tour cycle. He was always good about cycling various songs in and out of the master setlist from tour to tour. And given that the master setlist would total 4-6 hours of material, of course there were going to be songs that would repeat from tour to tour or would be brought back after 2 to 3 tour cycles. As the catalog continued to grow with each album, it would happen less, but there would always be some of that - especially since he tried to make sure that something from each of their albums was always included on the master setlist.
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The other night my son asked, "When were you at your peak?"
Wow—now there's a loaded question. Of course, my instinct was to say, "I'm still at my peak," but after further discussion, we narrowed it down to athletic peak...(obviously not now:)
Still, the conversation got me thinking about my writing, and my music. I like to think that my best days are ahead of me, but the pragmatist within says, "sure, but if you stop now, are you at the top of your game?"
Applying this to music is where this gets real fun.
I LOVE Kiss, but if I had to pick one album that shows them at their peak, I suspect I'm going to have a real hard time making a case for anything post-78, despite my continued affection for their non-makeup years.
As this is a Dream Theater forum, I am going to place the magnifying glass on them:
So, for me, "Score" is Dream Theater at their peak.
That album, to me, represents my favourite incarnation of the band firing on all cylinders.
"Scenes" to "Six Degrees" to "Train of Thought" to "Octavarium" is an incredible run, and that live document, given the context of what followed, feels like a high-water mark.
Now, that doesn't mean I don't LOVE other eras, because I do, but if we're reducing this to a single point in time, then "Score" is that point for me.
Would love to hear everyone else's thoughts ;D
For what it's worth, I thought YOU peaked with "Grand Torino" but then you did "The Mule" so what do I know? ;)
See, and all this time I thought my best days ("Unforgiven") were three decades behind me...I'll take Gran Torino every day of the week!
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Train of Thought. It was all uphill from SFAM to Six Degrees to TOT....I loved it. Score really fell short and it took until Black Clouds to feel like they really nailed it again (and never again since).
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SDOIT easily.
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Scenes From a Memory to Octavarium was Dream Theater at their absolute pinnacle.
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For Systematic Chaos they brought along an opener and so that reduced a bit the room for rotation, and by the time of Black Clouds, given also the package nature of the tour, Mike was by then scraping the bottom of the barrell since basically all the songs were already played in the 2002-2006 rotations.
It couldn't go on forver or better, it could have, but at a certain point the songs would have all returned to the set, after 2 or 3 tours of rest. But what a fun, unpredictable ride it has been in those three tours!
I wouldn't say that MP was scraping the bottom of the barrel by the time they got to the BCaSL tour cycle. He was always good about cycling various songs in and out of the master setlist from tour to tour. And given that the master setlist would total 4-6 hours of material, of course there were going to be songs that would repeat from tour to tour or would be brought back after 2 to 3 tour cycles. As the catalog continued to grow with each album, it would happen less, but there would always be some of that - especially since he tried to make sure that something from each of their albums was always included on the master setlist.
I think the problem with the set lists on the last few tours with Portnoy was that average at best tunes like Constant Motion and Forsaken became mainstays. The tours from 2000-2006 were mostly pretty money simply because most of the songs getting played on those tours were mostly winners, outside of a few from 8V, and even those weren't bad songs, just not killer ones, but once SC and (to a lesser degree) BC&SL happened, the overall quality of the set lists dipped a bit simply because the newer material wasn't as good and took up big chunks of the set list.
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As much as I love the stuff before and a lot of the stuff after, I would say SFAM->8V was their peak. On a personal level, this was the height of my fanboyism.
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This isn't as easy as I thought - Awake probably is my favorite DT album - but of course SFAM up until around 8VM is probably their career high when it comes to studio and live.
Actually for me, I became a fan when Six Degrees was just released, and then Train of Thought was a huge hit with me. Then Octavarium had the first songs where I thought there were maybe signs of a decline in quality - I wasn't crazy about The Answer Lies Within, I Walk Beside You and Never Enough although time has since made me appreciate them more, the former two having excellent renditions on Score. And at the end of the day, the title track is one of the greatest, most epic pieces of music ever made IMO.
Come to think of it, I've seen them live on all tours since Train of Thought. ToT and 8VM tour were great shows, but surely their show on the Systematic Chaos tour was absolute fire in terms of extra jams and 'spontaneous' different renditions of sections in songs. I remember Jordan getting the keytar out - was that the first tour he did that stuff?
Also, the Black Clouds show was on Progressive Nation with Opeth, Bigelf etc. and I vividly remember singing along with A Nightmare to Remember and the beautiful ambient/guitar intro to The Count of Tuscany.
In the end when it comes to studio albums, if I'm completely honest, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds started to have more silly/playful influences which were very fun and really added a nice touch to the live shows (the animations for The Dark Eternal Night etcetera come to mind) - but that's not really what Dream Theater was about for me. Can't really complain though, but that's what makes the last two MP era albums feel a little bit different for me. Also, musically those albums weren't breaking new ground anymore for the band. I can honestly say A Rite of Passage is DT by the numbers in kind of a bad way.
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Scenes, easily.
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Peak writing - SFAM/SDOIT
Peak live performances - 8vm tour/Score & AFTR Tour
Peak live show production - AFTR Tour & D/T Tour
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It's hard not to go with the SFAM era. The were hungry to prove themselves, they were at a great musical form and also they had Jordan joining the band which was a huge deal in reestablishing and expanding their instrumental-progressive side of the band. It was their time to step up and shine. And shine they did.
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If we are talking DT as a musically relevant, creative, progressive band AND “brand” they had two peaks;
Images and Words brought them into the public consciousness and gave them credibility as a commercially “viable” entity with a fan base. They even had an MTV hit with Pull Me Under. This was their first peak. Despite Awake (in my opinion) being just as strong musically, their brand of metal was really on the down slide by 1994, and they failed to get that second “single” they desperately needed. The weak follow up of Falling into Infinity nearly sunk the ship entirely.
Then came SFaM, where they found their identity and established themselves as a force going into the 2000s. They would follow this up with two more creatively strong albums, slowly building their fan base, culminating with Octavarium, their second “peak”, and last truly progressive album. The final song, Octavarium, is both a love letter to their influences and confident statement to everything they had spent 20 years building. The whole 20th Anniversary tour and Score showcased a band that was on top of the world. It was a magic time for the band and their fans. In my opinion, they never quite reached that high water mark again.
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It will be in 2285. They will be at Widow's Peak.
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It's complicated and simple to me.
Short answer : SFAM + SDOIT (+ LTE1 + LTE2)
DT Albums : Pure bliss, storytelling, prog to heavy.
I think I listened so much to these 2 (4) albums you can saw through my disks !
Long answer : I&W is a peak of prog on its kind
A change of seasons, octavarium, a dramatic turn of event, D/T, are SUPER solid,
So for me it's like DT got several shockwaves and afterwaves :D, it doesn't just form a pyramid
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I was originally going to say the SFAM - SDOIT era. They had broken free from what they felt were the "shackles" of label interference with their albums and were free to do whatever they wanted for really the first time in their careers. They had just brought Jordan into the fold and had a keyboard player that could take them wherever their imaginations wanted (and beyond). They had the hunger and invigoration of a young band with something to prove. But at the same time, they had the experience and maturity of a band doing it for over a decade. To me, it was the perfect storm of chops, creativity, and maturity. After reading some of the posts above, I still think that holds true, but would probably extend that into the TOT - 8VM cycles as well. Even though I like those albums less, I think everything I said above still held true during the album 7 and 8 cycles.
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To me, their highest cliff is the run from Scenes to Octavarium. And to me, the "Meta-Album" idea of each new album beginning from the end of the latest played a lot into this.
The Dream Theater Mountain has peaked there, and slowly dipped and then is now creating a new hill with a peak that is getting close to those highs of the last peak. The new hill is the Mangini Era. And it's brought the mountain back from it's canyon and is growing a to a newer peak, closer to the peak of the other hill, and the tallest point of the mountain.
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If we were charting it, it would look like this:
X
X / X
/ X / X X
/ \ / \ X X
/ \ / \ / \ X
X \ / \ / \ /
X \ X \ /
X X
1989 1992 1994 1997 1999 2002 2003 2005 2007 2009 2011 2013 2016 2019
Hopefully, things continue on an upward trend with DT15, rather than plateauing at the same level as DOT.
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I'm in agreement with the apparent general consensus of SCORE representing the zenith. I think in terms of studio albums they peaked at FII or SFAM though.
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Even though SDoiT is my favorite album, I consider SFaM as their absolute peak in every capacity.
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To me the peak is SDOIT. They started to lose “some” of the magic when they began to lean towards metal and a more modern sound. Also, James didn’t quite sound as powerful on TOT and the style of music didn’t fit him as well. James voice on SDOIT is pure bliss.
Rather than being inspired yes, genesis, and rush they started being inspired by u2, muse, and some of the Nu metal era.
With that said, they also gained a new wave of fans and started getting nominated for awards... such is the nature of the music industry.
I’m quite pleased with the direction of the band now though... the last two albums have very little if any of the above issues for me. They have returned to form and are a band aging exceptionally well now. I hope they continue to climb the mountain.
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To me the peak is SDOIT. They started to lose “some” of the magic when they began to lean towards metal and a more modern sound. Also, James didn’t quite sound as powerful on TOT and the style of music didn’t fit him as well. James voice on SDOIT is pure bliss.
Rather than being inspired yes, genesis, and rush they started being inspired by u2, muse, and some of the Nu metal era.
With that said, they also gained a new wave of fans and started getting nominated for awards... such is the nature of the music industry.
I’m quite pleased with the direction of the band now though... the last two albums have very little if any of the above issues for me. They have returned to form and are a band aging exceptionally well now. I hope they continue to climb the mountain.
This. As a HUGE James fan, 6 Degrees is by far my favorite performance from him.
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To me the peak is SDOIT. They started to lose “some” of the magic when they began to lean towards metal and a more modern sound. Also, James didn’t quite sound as powerful on TOT and the style of music didn’t fit him as well. James voice on SDOIT is pure bliss.
Rather than being inspired yes, genesis, and rush they started being inspired by u2, muse, and some of the Nu metal era.
There's a lot of truth to this, with Octavarium being the last gasp of the old DT.
Also, all the Mangini albums have the 'issues' you describe.
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6DoIT. Not only might this be my favorite all-around album from them but the tour was amazing. Having gotten to see them at the small warm-up show at BB King's, you couldn't help but see how locked in they were and how much fun they were having. James sounded great. They started doing the "Evening with" shows with the ever-changing set lists and occasional cover album sets. Even if you cheated by looking online at the previous setlists, you didn't really know what you were gonna get. So much fun! It was definitely a challenge for the band.
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There's a lot of truth to this, with Octavarium being the last gasp of the old DT.
Also, all the Mangini albums have the 'issues' you describe.
Two things I don't get with this. One being that Octavarium probably has less in common with their 90s era (other than FII maybe) than their non-TA MM era albums. It's also part of their attempts to modernise, given how the album tries to strike a similar tone to a lot of contemporary alternative rock/metal. How would These Walls, practically a 7 minute Linkin Park song, be at home on Images, Awake or Scenes? Another thing is that, whatver one may think of the quality, the MM era reversed a lot of the trends that people tended to not like about the first two Roadrunner albums. Sure, they're still pretty heavy generally but the nature of that heaviness is different and the vocal character is much more melodic than gritty. The influences are also generally much more closer to the band's roots, with the distinctly Rush esque sound of the self titled being a pretty stark example, with stuff like The Enemy Inside being more of an exception than the rule.
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To me the peak is SDOIT. They started to lose “some” of the magic when they began to lean towards metal and a more modern sound. Also, James didn’t quite sound as powerful on TOT and the style of music didn’t fit him as well. James voice on SDOIT is pure bliss.
Rather than being inspired yes, genesis, and rush they started being inspired by u2, muse, and some of the Nu metal era.
I can understand someone thinking 6D's was DT's peak. It's not an uncommon opinion.
Yes, James didn't sound as powerful on ToT, but none of the band did really. That album was recorded like ass and sounds like it. It's practically unlistenable to me, though it contains a ton of great tracks.
But it's the second paragraph that I'm having trouble understanding. It's pretty easy to hear Rush in pretty much every album after 6 D's, and they were channeling U2 long before 6 D's. They covered Red Hill Mining Town, and also Speak To Me has a total U2 influence. Other than I Walk Beside You, I haven't felt a U2 influence at all.
They're still channeling Yes in their instrumental sections, and Nu Metal? I guess I don't understand. Forsaken has a modern feel, but that's a great song. BMUBMD has it too, and does indeed blow.
There's a lot of truth to this, with Octavarium being the last gasp of the old DT.
Also, all the Mangini albums have the 'issues' you describe.
Two things I don't get with this. One being that Octavarium probably has less in common with their 90s era (other than FII maybe) than their non-TA MM era albums. It's also part of their attempts to modernise, given how the album tries to strike a similar tone to a lot of contemporary alternative rock/metal. How would These Walls, practically a 7 minute Linkin Park song, be at home on Images, Awake or Scenes? Another thing is that, whatver one may think of the quality, the MM era reversed a lot of the trends that people tended to not like about the first two Roadrunner albums. Sure, they're still pretty heavy generally but the nature of that heaviness is different and the vocal character is much more melodic than gritty. The influences are also generally much more closer to the band's roots, with the distinctly Rush esque sound of the self titled being a pretty stark example, with stuff like The Enemy Inside being more of an exception than the rule.
Thank you EM, I agree.
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Yes, James didn't sound as powerful on ToT, but none of the band did really. That album was recorded like ass and sounds like it.
It’s firmly in DT’s bottom half (perhaps even bottom 3-4?) for me, though I can see why people DO like it. For me everything went in the wrong direction on this album.
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Yes, James didn't sound as powerful on ToT, but none of the band did really. That album was recorded like ass and sounds like it.
It’s firmly in DT’s bottom half (perhaps even bottom 3-4?) for me, though I can see why people DO like it. For me everything went in the wrong direction on this album.
Well, I think they were going for a certain "thing" on this album, and I understand people not liking it. While I hate the way it sounds, I really like a number of tracks from it, and go for the Live At Budokan versions for them.
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There's a lot of truth to this, with Octavarium being the last gasp of the old DT.
Also, all the Mangini albums have the 'issues' you describe.
Two things I don't get with this. One being that Octavarium probably has less in common with their 90s era (other than FII maybe) than their non-TA MM era albums. It's also part of their attempts to modernise, given how the album tries to strike a similar tone to a lot of contemporary alternative rock/metal. How would These Walls, practically a 7 minute Linkin Park song, be at home on Images, Awake or Scenes? Another thing is that, whatver one may think of the quality, the MM era reversed a lot of the trends that people tended to not like about the first two Roadrunner albums. Sure, they're still pretty heavy generally but the nature of that heaviness is different and the vocal character is much more melodic than gritty. The influences are also generally much more closer to the band's roots, with the distinctly Rush esque sound of the self titled being a pretty stark example, with stuff like The Enemy Inside being more of an exception than the rule.
To me, Octavarium is the most overrated DT album. Not saying it's bad or anything like that, but I'd never put it in the top half of DT's catalog. They tried to present a "back to roots" album then and they didn't suceed with that, imo. The MM era albums achieved this much much better than OVM.
- TROA is really cool, but nothing too mindblowing.
- TALW is as uneventful as it gets.
- TW is one of my favorite DT songs ever, but it does sound much more "modern" than ""classic" DT.
- IWBY sounds a lot like U2, but not like inspired-by-U2 classic DT, like To Live Forever, for example. Not really a fan of this one.
- PA is amazing too, but there's a lot of Muse influence in the vocal melodies. Also, them being heavy for the sake of being heavy.
- NE is basically a Muse song re-writen.
- SS I like a lot, but it has the same issues as TMOLS or Endless Sacrifice, where you have a short song with a long, completely unrelated instrumental section with trade-off solos. Some people here call it the copy-paste instrumental section thing.
- Title track is amazing, but the album as a whole shouldn't try to rely just on it or a couple more songs.
The overall mood of the album feels a bit off to me, too. I can't really describe what it is, but it doesn't feel like it's a cohesive piece of art, but rather a bunch of different songs with different approaches put together in a disc and with some random sounds in between to connect them. In contrast, I listened to Awake a couple days ago and it sounds full, the mood is consistent. Not all the songs sound the same, but there's a cohesiveness to it that makes it a very enjoyable listen, even though the album has quite a dark-ish feel.
Sorry for the long post, btw, I got carried away :laugh:
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I do like Octavarium quite a bit, but yeah, it's perhaps the band's most derivative album (or at the very least up there, in terms of having so many songs that ape another band's style) and certainly doesn't have the vibe of a back to roots album. I think because the music itself is so streamlined, it probably puts into focus just how different each song is from each other as well, hence why it might not feel as cohesive as something like Awake, an album notably more intricate musically on average.
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Yes, James didn't sound as powerful on ToT, but none of the band did really. That album was recorded like ass and sounds like it.
It’s firmly in DT’s bottom half (perhaps even bottom 3-4?) for me, though I can see why people DO like it. For me everything went in the wrong direction on this album.
Well, I think they were going for a certain "thing" on this album, and I understand people not liking it. While I hate the way it sounds, I really like a number of tracks from it, and go for the Live At Budokan versions for them.
Oh, they were definitely going for something specific, I just don't really enjoy the end result myself. It's a very consistent album sound-wise, maybe even their most consistent one to date. In that sense, they've done really well. The only tracks I personally enjoy from this album are As I Am, Vacant and Stream of Consciousness.
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There's a lot of truth to this, with Octavarium being the last gasp of the old DT.
Also, all the Mangini albums have the 'issues' you describe.
Two things I don't get with this. One being that Octavarium probably has less in common with their 90s era (other than FII maybe) than their non-TA MM era albums. It's also part of their attempts to modernise, given how the album tries to strike a similar tone to a lot of contemporary alternative rock/metal. How would These Walls, practically a 7 minute Linkin Park song, be at home on Images, Awake or Scenes? Another thing is that, whatver one may think of the quality, the MM era reversed a lot of the trends that people tended to not like about the first two Roadrunner albums. Sure, they're still pretty heavy generally but the nature of that heaviness is different and the vocal character is much more melodic than gritty. The influences are also generally much more closer to the band's roots, with the distinctly Rush esque sound of the self titled being a pretty stark example, with stuff like The Enemy Inside being more of an exception than the rule.
This whole thing was amazingly well said... it’s like your brain is the same as mine haha
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- SS I like a lot, but it has the same issues as TMOLS or Endless Sacrifice, where you have a short song with a long, completely unrelated instrumental section with trade-off solos. Some people here call it the copy-paste instrumental section thing.
Also in all of those cases, the mood of the lyrics got completely discarded by the solo section.
- Man, long distance relationship is a drag.... well, let's forget about it with some circus music, that should cheer you up!
- So, there's this girl that was drowning but the guy who saved her drowned instead and.... you know what, let's forget about it and let's think about this jam for five minutes straight
- What a horrible tragedy 9/11 was... best compensate it with another juicy jam
I don't say to skip the solo sections entirely, but at least keep the mood of the song or change it gradually, also Trial of Tears has a long solo section that goes on quite a bit, but it doesn't make you forget it the feel of the song...
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Yeah, you just picked some fine examples of DT’s bad songwritng choices. Add In the Name of God to that list too, and Illumination Theory.
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Peak DT for me was Images and Words through to Scenes From a Memory. They've had some high points since, Octavarium especially, but that was their peak for me. Yes, I know that includes FII, it's a great album, bite me.
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Yeah, you just picked some fine examples of DT’s bad songwritng choices. Add In the Name of God to that list too, and Illumination Theory.
On the other hand, example of a good one: ItPoE Pt. 2, which sounds like a literal battle against demons. Not Pt. 1 though.
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There's a lot of truth to this, with Octavarium being the last gasp of the old DT.
Also, all the Mangini albums have the 'issues' you describe.
Two things I don't get with this. One being that Octavarium probably has less in common with their 90s era (other than FII maybe) than their non-TA MM era albums. It's also part of their attempts to modernise, given how the album tries to strike a similar tone to a lot of contemporary alternative rock/metal. How would These Walls, practically a 7 minute Linkin Park song, be at home on Images, Awake or Scenes? Another thing is that, whatver one may think of the quality, the MM era reversed a lot of the trends that people tended to not like about the first two Roadrunner albums. Sure, they're still pretty heavy generally but the nature of that heaviness is different and the vocal character is much more melodic than gritty. The influences are also generally much more closer to the band's roots, with the distinctly Rush esque sound of the self titled being a pretty stark example, with stuff like The Enemy Inside being more of an exception than the rule.
This, for sure.
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- SS I like a lot, but it has the same issues as TMOLS or Endless Sacrifice, where you have a short song with a long, completely unrelated instrumental section with trade-off solos. Some people here call it the copy-paste instrumental section thing.
Also in all of those cases, the mood of the lyrics got completely discarded by the solo section.
- Man, long distance relationship is a drag.... well, let's forget about it with some circus music, that should cheer you up!
- So, there's this girl that was drowning but the guy who saved her drowned instead and.... you know what, let's forget about it and let's think about this jam for five minutes straight
- What a horrible tragedy 9/11 was... best compensate it with another juicy jam
I don't say to skip the solo sections entirely, but at least keep the mood of the song or change it gradually, also Trial of Tears has a long solo section that goes on quite a bit, but it doesn't make you forget it the feel of the song...
I’ve been saying this for years! TMoLS isn’t as egregious to me because the lyrics are rooted in fiction, and ES is one of my least favorite DT songs from beginning to end, but as a native New Yorker who saw the smoke from the towers out of his classroom window in third grade and lost a relative in the towers, the instrumental section in SS is a total mood shift from what is a very personally heavy set of lyrics, and even though musically the song works, the lyrics just do not fit as bookends to a wacky instrumental section.
Outcry suffers from this problem as well, with an instrumental section for the sake of having an instrumental section. These are all examples of songs trying to be Metropolis, and really the only song in that style that I feel succeeds is Blind Faith.
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How the heck is ITNOG a "bad songwriting choice"?
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How the heck is ITNOG a "bad songwriting choice"?
Because the entire middle section is completely detached from everything that came before and comes afterwards.
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How the heck is ITNOG a "bad songwriting choice"?
Because the entire middle section is completely detached from everything that came before and comes afterwards.
Without claiming it’s good or bad songwriting, I’ll just note that a large number of DT songs have a middle section that is totally detached from what comes before or after.
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And while that may have been what brought me into prog, it's also what puts me off nowadays..
There's a big difference between the middle section in Metropolis, which is all kinds of awesome, and the one in (since we're using this song as an example) ITNOG, where it's a massive solo-trade-off-wankfest that doesn't go anywhere.
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And while that may have been what brought me into prog, it's also what puts me off nowadays..
There's a big difference between the middle section in Metropolis, which is all kinds of awesome, and the one in (since we're using this song as an example) ITNOG, where it's a massive solo-trade-off-wankfest that doesn't go anywhere.
I agree there is a line between something awesome and something that is wankery, and yeah, a lot of it comes down to how interesting the instrumental passage is structurally and melodically and whether it seems to build towards something meaningful in terms of conveying the ideas in the song. The prog songs that do that well are magnificent. But it can all go off the rails if you aren’t careful. I do think one of the things DT fell into after Jordan joined the band was wanting to “push the envelope” instrumentally and do bigger and faster and heavier and crazier instrumental passages. ITNOG is maybe a good example of pushing that too far. As I mentioned in the LTE thread recently, I think that sort of thing works better in an instrumental context (like LTE) than when you try to shoehorn it into a song with lyrics.
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Without claiming it’s good or bad songwriting, I’ll just note that a large number of DT songs have a middle section that is totally detached from what comes before or after.
Exactly.
There's a big difference between the middle section in Metropolis, which is all kinds of awesome, and the one in (since we're using this song as an example) ITNOG, where it's a massive solo-trade-off-wankfest that doesn't go anywhere.
Well...I like one more than the other, but I don't really see any appreciable structural difference or any sort of difference in the songwriting approach.
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There's a lot of truth to this, with Octavarium being the last gasp of the old DT.
Also, all the Mangini albums have the 'issues' you describe.
Two things I don't get with this. One being that Octavarium probably has less in common with their 90s era (other than FII maybe) than their non-TA MM era albums. It's also part of their attempts to modernise, given how the album tries to strike a similar tone to a lot of contemporary alternative rock/metal. How would These Walls, practically a 7 minute Linkin Park song, be at home on Images, Awake or Scenes? Another thing is that, whatver one may think of the quality, the MM era reversed a lot of the trends that people tended to not like about the first two Roadrunner albums. Sure, they're still pretty heavy generally but the nature of that heaviness is different and the vocal character is much more melodic than gritty. The influences are also generally much more closer to the band's roots, with the distinctly Rush esque sound of the self titled being a pretty stark example, with stuff like The Enemy Inside being more of an exception than the rule.
To me, "old DT" is pre-SC, so 8vm is musically closer to Six Degrees than anything that came after it, despite the 'influences on their sleeve' becoming more noticeable here. The big difference with post-8vm DT is the reliance to fall back on their metal leanings, which did NOT go away when MP left. It's all over the Mangini albums. They used to have a better balance between the different styles they bring to the table. I thought Black Clouds was moving in the right direction and that was the closest to the old style over the last 6 albums, especially the last 2 songs. Now, their sound is overly metal with 'arena rock' choruses (for lack of a better term) + a host of other things thrown into the mix, minus a few lighter tunes they've made since.
The structure of their songs is also generally samey as well which is unfortunate but predictable with a band as old as they are who haven't tried to shake things up in that department in over 15 years. Most songs have the same general pop format of intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, solo section, chorus, outro, but with Dream Theater acrobatics of course; JP overpowering Myung Man with one note riffs on top of Mangini's computer drumming and JR playing dark epic chords in choir setting when he's not playing sad piano or Continuum wackanoodles, all while JLB, drenched in effects now, hits notes he can't reproduce regularly in single takes, nor is singing any melody that is memorable with any regularity. JR's solo albums and JP's solo album + their LTE3 performances show me they still have the capabilities to make more original music, but for some reason I feel like they've put on these self-imposed rules of what sounds like DT and what doesn't, even if they're doing a 2 and a half hour Disney spin off to claim that they're "mixing things up". I think they need a producer or something. This is why I said Octavarium was the last gasp of old DT. The album had some of these structure problems I mentioned, but the songs themselves were diverse in sound, and the title track has a vast structure, even if it's one big crescendo with a climax.
I always thought DT would never fall into mediocrity in their later years, like so many bands of the past (all of them?) have, and thought they'd either know when to quit or keep new releases more spaced out. That was years before MP left. Like with Phish, while not into the new material much, I still like em and still keep up with what they're doing. Doesn't mean I can't criticize.
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As others have stated, I would also say "Score" which coincidentally aligns with when I discovered the band.
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There's a lot of truth to this, with Octavarium being the last gasp of the old DT.
Also, all the Mangini albums have the 'issues' you describe.
Two things I don't get with this. One being that Octavarium probably has less in common with their 90s era (other than FII maybe) than their non-TA MM era albums. It's also part of their attempts to modernise, given how the album tries to strike a similar tone to a lot of contemporary alternative rock/metal. How would These Walls, practically a 7 minute Linkin Park song, be at home on Images, Awake or Scenes? Another thing is that, whatver one may think of the quality, the MM era reversed a lot of the trends that people tended to not like about the first two Roadrunner albums. Sure, they're still pretty heavy generally but the nature of that heaviness is different and the vocal character is much more melodic than gritty. The influences are also generally much more closer to the band's roots, with the distinctly Rush esque sound of the self titled being a pretty stark example, with stuff like The Enemy Inside being more of an exception than the rule.
To me, "old DT" is pre-SC, so 8vm is musically closer to Six Degrees than anything that came after it, despite the 'influences on their sleeve' becoming more noticeable here. The big difference with post-8vm DT is the reliance to fall back on their metal leanings, which did NOT go away when MP left. It's all over the Mangini albums. They used to have a better balance between the different styles they bring to the table. I thought Black Clouds was moving in the right direction and that was the closest to the old style over the last 6 albums, especially the last 2 songs. Now, their sound is overly metal with 'arena rock' choruses (for lack of a better term) + a host of other things thrown into the mix, minus a few lighter tunes they've made since.
The structure of their songs is also generally samey as well which is unfortunate but predictable with a band as old as they are who haven't tried to shake things up in that department in over 15 years. Most songs have the same general pop format of intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, solo section, chorus, outro, but with Dream Theater acrobatics of course; JP overpowering Myung Man with one note riffs on top of Mangini's computer drumming and JR playing dark epic chords in choir setting when he's not playing sad piano or Continuum wackanoodles, all while JLB, drenched in effects now, hits notes he can't reproduce regularly in single takes, nor is singing any melody that is memorable with any regularity. JR's solo albums and JP's solo album + their LTE3 performances show me they still have the capabilities to make more original music, but for some reason I feel like they've put on these self-imposed rules of what sounds like DT and what doesn't, even if they're doing a 2 and a half hour Disney spin off to claim that they're "mixing things up". I think they need a producer or something. This is why I said Octavarium was the last gasp of old DT. The album had some of these structure problems I mentioned, but the songs themselves were diverse in sound, and the title track has a vast structure, even if it's one big crescendo with a climax.
I always thought DT would never fall into mediocrity in their later years, like so many bands of the past (all of them?) have, and thought they'd either know when to quit or keep new releases more spaced out. That was years before MP left. Like with Phish, while not into the new material much, I still like em and still keep up with what they're doing. Doesn't mean I can't criticize.
Octavarium sounded to me like a band that had “made it” and just wanted to try to make more money. They threw the fans a bone with the title track (which was still uninspiring melodically) and hammed in the rest of the album. I just don’t understand how somebody can call that album inspired and DOT or the astonishing mediocre and uninspired.
We’re all entitled to our own opinions but to me octavarium was an attempt to go mainstream and not make a great cohesive album.
Also... DT self titled is way less metal and modern sounding than any post SDOIT portnoy album outside of the enemy inside.
The astonishing has no metal and although DOT has some metal aspects, it’s got very warm production and James sings more like his 90’s self than trying to sound like Hetfield the whole album.
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Octavarium sounded to me like a band that had “made it” and just wanted to try to make more money. They threw the fans a bone with the title track (which was still uninspiring melodically) and hammed in the rest of the album. I just don’t understand how somebody can call that album inspired and DOT or the astonishing mediocre and uninspired.
We’re all entitled to our own opinions but to me octavarium was an attempt to go mainstream and not make a great cohesive album.
Also... DT self titled is way less metal and modern sounding than any post SDOIT portnoy album outside of the enemy inside.
The astonishing has no metal and although DOT has some metal aspects, it’s got very warm production and James sings more like his 90’s self than trying to sound like Hetfield the whole album.
Preach.
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To me, "old DT" is pre-SC, so 8vm is musically closer to Six Degrees than anything that came after it, despite the 'influences on their sleeve' becoming more noticeable here.
Okay I really don't see this. If anything, with the more streamlined song structures and emphasis on lighter textures, it's probably as close to The Astonishing as it is to Six Degrees. The idea that all the pre-SC albums can be grouped together as a unit of "old DT" just feels really bizarre. Images and Words sounds hardly like Falling Into Infinity, Which sounds hardly like Train of Thought, which sounds hardly like When Dream and Day Unite. I don't think Distance Over Time is that much like A Dramatic Turn of Events either, so I think it's fair to say that the trend has continued.
The big difference with post-8vm DT is the reliance to fall back on their metal leanings, which did NOT go away when MP left. It's all over the Mangini albums. They used to have a better balance between the different styles they bring to the table. I thought Black Clouds was moving in the right direction and that was the closest to the old style over the last 6 albums, especially the last 2 songs. Now, their sound is overly metal with 'arena rock' choruses (for lack of a better term) + a host of other things thrown into the mix, minus a few lighter tunes they've made since.
For one, I honestly feel like it's overstated how much emphasis Roadrunner DT puts on metal. Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds and Silver Linings are both very dynamic albums that, sure, have a lot of metal, but they also have The Best of Times, Repentence, the intro and second half of The Count of Tuscany, the mid-section of A Nightmare to Remember, most of The Ministry of Lost Souls and so on. They might be heavier than your average Dream Theater album, but honestly that's just down to the extremes being more intense. The reason for which is probably just because more extreme metal was beginning to take hold in the mainstream a bit more. They fall back on their metal leanings (which I think is a bit of a strange thing to say, given that Dream Theater have always defined themselves as a progressive metal band, it's been the core of their sound since day one) about as much as Awake and WDaDU and much less so than Train of Thought.
With post-MP DT, it's mostly the same story, except all but D/T are arguably less heavy than Six Degrees too. The main difference I noticed from MP to MM era is that, while there aren't necessarily way more softer songs, they have more sonically louder yet dynamic tracks where they still aren't in-your-face heavy (think Breaking All Illusions, Surrender to Reason, The Gift of Music or Barstool Warrior). Even when they do go heavier too, it's generally tempered with keyboard textures or melodic vocals that add a different dimension to the music rather than pure aggression. There's not much like A Rite of Passage, Constant Motion or The Dark Eternal Night on the 4 MM era albums. There are exceptions (like the 2nd verse of AWE or first verse of IT), but... well, they're exceptions and at that point they provide a welcome burst of energy.
Also, if you take issue with arena rock choruses... Octavarium might have quite a few of those, depending on how you'd define them.
The structure of their songs is also generally samey as well which is unfortunate but predictable with a band as old as they are who haven't tried to shake things up in that department in over 15 years. Most songs have the same general pop format of intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, solo section, chorus, outro, but with Dream Theater acrobatics of course;
They've... always had this formula though, at least to some degree. "intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, solo section, chorus, outro" is Pull Me Under, Misunderstood, Under a Glass Moon, Caught in a Web, Afterlife, Voices, Beyond This Life and so on. That's just common structure and it's always been the structure of the majority of DT songs, doesn't mean you can't do a lot with it, as the variety in those tracks shows. Ironically the majority of The Astonishing probably deviates from that and yet you don't seem to like it, while Octavarium is practically fully immersed in that formula other than maybe the last two.
JP overpowering Myung Man with one note riffs on top of Mangini's computer drumming and JR playing dark epic chords in choir setting when he's not playing sad piano or Continuum wackanoodles, all while JLB, drenched in effects now, hits notes he can't reproduce regularly in single takes, nor is singing any melody that is memorable with any regularity.
Well the memorability thing is rather subjective, given that when I listen to any DT album other than maybe the debut, I tend to get like half of it stuck in my head, the newer material is very much included. "Computer drumming" is more down to a jab at the production than the player, which, fair enough I guess, even though it doesn't pertain directly to the music. The point about James hitting notes he can't reproduce regularly in single takes... is just incorrect, given the live albums that have been released in the last decade or so. Possible fixing here and there aside, he's doing pretty good for his age. The keyboard point could honestly be applied to any of their keyboardists, it's not like Kevin Moore had immense sonic range and Derek sure didn't, they just drew from a different (and usually smaller than JR) set of sounds. It also, again, wasn't any less the case on an album like Octavarium or even Scenes from a Memory. The funny thing about Myung too is that he was arguably more present on ADToE, DT12 and D/T than anything else since Six Degrees. I'm not even sure what you're referring to when you say one note riffs (A Fortune in Lies, Metropolis, The Mirror, Fatal Tragedy, The Glass Prison having actual one note riffs once again showing this is nothing new) because if there's anything to knock about modern DT, it probably isn't the guitar riffs.
JR's solo albums and JP's solo album + their LTE3 performances show me they still have the capabilities to make more original music, but for some reason I feel like they've put on these self-imposed rules of what sounds like DT and what doesn't, even if they're doing a 2 and a half hour Disney spin off to claim that they're "mixing things up". I think they need a producer or something. This is why I said Octavarium was the last gasp of old DT. The album had some of these structure problems I mentioned, but the songs themselves were diverse in sound, and the title track has a vast structure, even if it's one big crescendo with a climax.
This feels like cognitive dissonance. How exactly is TA not mixing things up? It's not just a new kind of album for DT, but many songs do indeed have styles not seen before or since by them. Not to mention, most instances of them having external producers has been met with negative attention from both the band and the fans, so I highly doubt that's an avenue they want to be heading any time soon. I'm also curious how LTE3 shows their capacity for original music, given that much of it is pretty much in the spirit of late Portnoy era DT to the point of almost direct quotation. I like the album, but I really don't think it breaks any new ground. As for Octavarium, it may be varied but again, so is TA, probably moreso. I also struggle to think of two songs within the recent albums that are closely alike (well, maybe other than TA by virtue of it having so many songs), so it's not like they've gone musically monochrome. The point about the title track's vast structure could also be extended to Illumination Theory, Breaking All Illusions or even something like Outcry too.
I always thought DT would never fall into mediocrity in their later years, like so many bands of the past (all of them?) have, and thought they'd either know when to quit or keep new releases more spaced out. That was years before MP left. Like with Phish, while not into the new material much, I still like em and still keep up with what they're doing. Doesn't mean I can't criticize.
It's not that I think you can't criticise and you're perfectly welcome to not like new DT, it's just that a lot of the criticisms leave me a bit confused due to what I see as inconsistencies.
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Keep in mind everything was a generalization. There are a few songs from the Mangini era I like. Each album has had at least one song I can honestly call a good song, despite the criticisms.
The main issue is the band's sound slowly stopped progressing some time between Train of Thought and Systematic Chaos, and they've just been running with that since, obviously with some tweaks here and there, and a change in drummers. It's all felt like DT by numbers, especially once MM joined. The Astonishing, while a different concept, was musically not far off from the previous album, just presented in a different context. The actual sound of the band is the same, same with DoT. I'm not talking production either, just the general vibe of the band. There is small changes but when I look at the totality of their albums, it's the first 8, which to me, each have their own identity; then the next 6*, which have different production values to tell them apart, but all sound like they come from the same pool of ideas every few years, and it comes off like pumping out another unit off the assembly line to me, with different color ties and bows to make it look different.
*SC sounds different than before but this has been the standard since, minus MP on drums. BC&SL they were already bringing back the major key stuff and the like.
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We’re all entitled to our own opinions but to me octavarium was an attempt to go mainstream and not make a great cohesive album.
Also... DT self titled is way less metal and modern sounding than any post SDOIT portnoy album outside of the enemy inside.
The only thing is, from what I recall, Octavarium had no singles, (Panic Attack was a guitar hero or rock band single years later) and it was the last album under their record label at the time and it got little promotion. I think it was more that they wanted to do something that was the polar opposite of Train of Thought, which in my opinion they succeeded. To me, 8vm was the last album where they were a prog-metal band, instead of a metal band that plays prog. DT12 is certainly more metal than any of the first 8 Portnoy albums, except ToT of course.
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To me, "old DT" is pre-SC, so 8vm is musically closer to Six Degrees than anything that came after it, despite the 'influences on their sleeve' becoming more noticeable here.
Okay I really don't see this. If anything, with the more streamlined song structures and emphasis on lighter textures, it's probably as close to The Astonishing as it is to Six Degrees. The idea that all the pre-SC albums can be grouped together as a unit of "old DT" just feels really bizarre. Images and Words sounds hardly like Falling Into Infinity, Which sounds hardly like Train of Thought, which sounds hardly like When Dream and Day Unite. I don't think Distance Over Time is that much like A Dramatic Turn of Events either, so I think it's fair to say that the trend has continued.
The big difference with post-8vm DT is the reliance to fall back on their metal leanings, which did NOT go away when MP left. It's all over the Mangini albums. They used to have a better balance between the different styles they bring to the table. I thought Black Clouds was moving in the right direction and that was the closest to the old style over the last 6 albums, especially the last 2 songs. Now, their sound is overly metal with 'arena rock' choruses (for lack of a better term) + a host of other things thrown into the mix, minus a few lighter tunes they've made since.
For one, I honestly feel like it's overstated how much emphasis Roadrunner DT puts on metal. Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds and Silver Linings are both very dynamic albums that, sure, have a lot of metal, but they also have The Best of Times, Repentence, the intro and second half of The Count of Tuscany, the mid-section of A Nightmare to Remember, most of The Ministry of Lost Souls and so on. They might be heavier than your average Dream Theater album, but honestly that's just down to the extremes being more intense. The reason for which is probably just because more extreme metal was beginning to take hold in the mainstream a bit more. They fall back on their metal leanings (which I think is a bit of a strange thing to say, given that Dream Theater have always defined themselves as a progressive metal band, it's been the core of their sound since day one) about as much as Awake and WDaDU and much less so than Train of Thought.
With post-MP DT, it's mostly the same story, except all but D/T are arguably less heavy than Six Degrees too. The main difference I noticed from MP to MM era is that, while there aren't necessarily way more softer songs, they have more sonically louder yet dynamic tracks where they still aren't in-your-face heavy (think Breaking All Illusions, Surrender to Reason, The Gift of Music or Barstool Warrior). Even when they do go heavier too, it's generally tempered with keyboard textures or melodic vocals that add a different dimension to the music rather than pure aggression. There's not much like A Rite of Passage, Constant Motion or The Dark Eternal Night on the 4 MM era albums. There are exceptions (like the 2nd verse of AWE or first verse of IT), but... well, they're exceptions and at that point they provide a welcome burst of energy.
Also, if you take issue with arena rock choruses... Octavarium might have quite a few of those, depending on how you'd define them.
The structure of their songs is also generally samey as well which is unfortunate but predictable with a band as old as they are who haven't tried to shake things up in that department in over 15 years. Most songs have the same general pop format of intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, solo section, chorus, outro, but with Dream Theater acrobatics of course;
They've... always had this formula though, at least to some degree. "intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, solo section, chorus, outro" is Pull Me Under, Misunderstood, Under a Glass Moon, Caught in a Web, Afterlife, Voices, Beyond This Life and so on. That's just common structure and it's always been the structure of the majority of DT songs, doesn't mean you can't do a lot with it, as the variety in those tracks shows. Ironically the majority of The Astonishing probably deviates from that and yet you don't seem to like it, while Octavarium is practically fully immersed in that formula other than maybe the last two.
JP overpowering Myung Man with one note riffs on top of Mangini's computer drumming and JR playing dark epic chords in choir setting when he's not playing sad piano or Continuum wackanoodles, all while JLB, drenched in effects now, hits notes he can't reproduce regularly in single takes, nor is singing any melody that is memorable with any regularity.
Well the memorability thing is rather subjective, given that when I listen to any DT album other than maybe the debut, I tend to get like half of it stuck in my head, the newer material is very much included. "Computer drumming" is more down to a jab at the production than the player, which, fair enough I guess, even though it doesn't pertain directly to the music. The point about James hitting notes he can't reproduce regularly in single takes... is just incorrect, given the live albums that have been released in the last decade or so. Possible fixing here and there aside, he's doing pretty good for his age. The keyboard point could honestly be applied to any of their keyboardists, it's not like Kevin Moore had immense sonic range and Derek sure didn't, they just drew from a different (and usually smaller than JR) set of sounds. It also, again, wasn't any less the case on an album like Octavarium or even Scenes from a Memory. The funny thing about Myung too is that he was arguably more present on ADToE, DT12 and D/T than anything else since Six Degrees. I'm not even sure what you're referring to when you say one note riffs (A Fortune in Lies, Metropolis, The Mirror, Fatal Tragedy, The Glass Prison having actual one note riffs once again showing this is nothing new) because if there's anything to knock about modern DT, it probably isn't the guitar riffs.
JR's solo albums and JP's solo album + their LTE3 performances show me they still have the capabilities to make more original music, but for some reason I feel like they've put on these self-imposed rules of what sounds like DT and what doesn't, even if they're doing a 2 and a half hour Disney spin off to claim that they're "mixing things up". I think they need a producer or something. This is why I said Octavarium was the last gasp of old DT. The album had some of these structure problems I mentioned, but the songs themselves were diverse in sound, and the title track has a vast structure, even if it's one big crescendo with a climax.
This feels like cognitive dissonance. How exactly is TA not mixing things up? It's not just a new kind of album for DT, but many songs do indeed have styles not seen before or since by them. Not to mention, most instances of them having external producers has been met with negative attention from both the band and the fans, so I highly doubt that's an avenue they want to be heading any time soon. I'm also curious how LTE3 shows their capacity for original music, given that much of it is pretty much in the spirit of late Portnoy era DT to the point of almost direct quotation. I like the album, but I really don't think it breaks any new ground. As for Octavarium, it may be varied but again, so is TA, probably moreso. I also struggle to think of two songs within the recent albums that are closely alike (well, maybe other than TA by virtue of it having so many songs), so it's not like they've gone musically monochrome. The point about the title track's vast structure could also be extended to Illumination Theory, Breaking All Illusions or even something like Outcry too.
I always thought DT would never fall into mediocrity in their later years, like so many bands of the past (all of them?) have, and thought they'd either know when to quit or keep new releases more spaced out. That was years before MP left. Like with Phish, while not into the new material much, I still like em and still keep up with what they're doing. Doesn't mean I can't criticize.
It's not that I think you can't criticise and you're perfectly welcome to not like new DT, it's just that a lot of the criticisms leave me a bit confused due to what I see as inconsistencies.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
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There's a lot of truth to this, with Octavarium being the last gasp of the old DT.
Also, all the Mangini albums have the 'issues' you describe.
Two things I don't get with this. One being that Octavarium probably has less in common with their 90s era (other than FII maybe) than their non-TA MM era albums. It's also part of their attempts to modernise, given how the album tries to strike a similar tone to a lot of contemporary alternative rock/metal. How would These Walls, practically a 7 minute Linkin Park song, be at home on Images, Awake or Scenes? Another thing is that, whatver one may think of the quality, the MM era reversed a lot of the trends that people tended to not like about the first two Roadrunner albums. Sure, they're still pretty heavy generally but the nature of that heaviness is different and the vocal character is much more melodic than gritty. The influences are also generally much more closer to the band's roots, with the distinctly Rush esque sound of the self titled being a pretty stark example, with stuff like The Enemy Inside being more of an exception than the rule.
To me, "old DT" is pre-SC, so 8vm is musically closer to Six Degrees than anything that came after it, despite the 'influences on their sleeve' becoming more noticeable here. The big difference with post-8vm DT is the reliance to fall back on their metal leanings, which did NOT go away when MP left. It's all over the Mangini albums. They used to have a better balance between the different styles they bring to the table. I thought Black Clouds was moving in the right direction and that was the closest to the old style over the last 6 albums, especially the last 2 songs. Now, their sound is overly metal with 'arena rock' choruses (for lack of a better term) + a host of other things thrown into the mix, minus a few lighter tunes they've made since.
The structure of their songs is also generally samey as well which is unfortunate but predictable with a band as old as they are who haven't tried to shake things up in that department in over 15 years. Most songs have the same general pop format of intro, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, solo section, chorus, outro, but with Dream Theater acrobatics of course; JP overpowering Myung Man with one note riffs on top of Mangini's computer drumming and JR playing dark epic chords in choir setting when he's not playing sad piano or Continuum wackanoodles, all while JLB, drenched in effects now, hits notes he can't reproduce regularly in single takes, nor is singing any melody that is memorable with any regularity. JR's solo albums and JP's solo album + their LTE3 performances show me they still have the capabilities to make more original music, but for some reason I feel like they've put on these self-imposed rules of what sounds like DT and what doesn't, even if they're doing a 2 and a half hour Disney spin off to claim that they're "mixing things up". I think they need a producer or something. This is why I said Octavarium was the last gasp of old DT. The album had some of these structure problems I mentioned, but the songs themselves were diverse in sound, and the title track has a vast structure, even if it's one big crescendo with a climax.
I always thought DT would never fall into mediocrity in their later years, like so many bands of the past (all of them?) have, and thought they'd either know when to quit or keep new releases more spaced out. That was years before MP left. Like with Phish, while not into the new material much, I still like em and still keep up with what they're doing. Doesn't mean I can't criticize.
I actually think they went into Mediocrity with Systematic Chaos. When they signed with Roadrunner and started making Music Videos again.
For me, Their peak was 6DOIT.
Then they decided to just go full on Metal with Train of Thought, and that is the album where they really incorporated the LTE style Instrumentals and solos. And also, incorporated it live by extending Beyond This Life with a jam, and actually releasing Instrumedly that had LTE songs within it.
The sound and style of ToT, made the guys (mainly MP) want to make the next album more in the proggier/pop, light, and warm, style and sound of album. Kind of like making the parallel album to what ToT is, the dark, Metal, cold, style and sound. And we ended up with Octavarium, which I do enjoy because of the theme of the musical octave, and the title track including those passages from the other songs, each going down that octave, and this isn't including the incorporation of the "Nuggets"...Also for it being the end of the Meta-Album run, which makes Octavariums ending hit even more harder, because the link between the albums ends, and just repeats being trapped inside the Octavarium.
Systematic Chaos, is where the band had no idea of what they wanted it to be, and being not on a label, and free of their last record contract, were able to basically, do whatever. Something, I think they haven't had since When Dream and Day Unite, and it kind of feels like this. Even the sound of it, but with better production. I do not mind the songs on this album, but it's where I feel the band began showing a bit of a rut. Where they started doing the usual, Verse-Chorus type of structure with the usual Keyboard/Guitar back and forth solos, which is why I don't really enjoy Constant Motion as much, even though that guitar solo bend is awesome, and the energy of the song is great live. I actually enjoy what they did with Prophets of War, and I even don't mind the lyrics, but the energy of the song doesn't translate that well live, that is from the live videos I could find of it, and MP not doing those vocals live ruins that energy for me.
Black Clouds and Silver Linings, I feel was sort of a step in the right direction, but then you have songs that feel like they had to make singles. A Rite of Passage and Wither. The real meat is in the longer length songs. Each of those songs has sections that really elevate them. The Count of Tuscany, even though it has some cheesy lyrics, has some amazing music behind it. The ending is really beautiful, and the lyrics there fit really well, and having a sing-along ending even enhances it even more, if people actually sing along live that is...
This is why to me, the band peaked at 6DOIT, and finally came back slowly with ADTOE, and coming pretty close to it with D/T. We'll see how this new album sounds, and based off of their interviews, It may possibly hit that same high.
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I do agree with the idea that the reason that Octavarium was the way it was wasn't because of a desire to go mainstream, they already knew that the label wouldn't be having anything to do with that.
Keep in mind everything was a generalization. There are a few songs from the Mangini era I like. Each album has had at least one song I can honestly call a good song, despite the criticisms.
The main issue is the band's sound slowly stopped progressing some time between Train of Thought and Systematic Chaos, and they've just been running with that since, obviously with some tweaks here and there, and a change in drummers. It's all felt like DT by numbers, especially once MM joined. The Astonishing, while a different concept, was musically not far off from the previous album, just presented in a different context. The actual sound of the band is the same, same with DoT. I'm not talking production either, just the general vibe of the band. There is small changes but when I look at the totality of their albums, it's the first 8, which to me, each have their own identity; then the next 6*, which have different production values to tell them apart, but all sound like they come from the same pool of ideas every few years, and it comes off like pumping out another unit off the assembly line to me, with different color ties and bows to make it look different.
*SC sounds different than before but this has been the standard since, minus MP on drums. BC&SL they were already bringing back the major key stuff and the like.
Well again, bit of a contradction given that you say that SC has been the standard since, yet BC&SL was already a break from that. I don't know, can you really say that DT12 is that close to SC or that ADToE wasn't a significant shift from BC&SL? Like, it's an entirely different energy on there. Along for the Ride, The Bigger Picture, The Looking Glass, Surrender to Reason would all sound completely out of place. If you don't think TA is a huge deviation from their usual sound then I kind of don't know what to tell you. Brother Can You Hear Me, A Life Left Behind, Three Days, Chosen, Lord Nafaryus, Hymn of a Thousand Voices... do not sound like DT12, it just doesn't have that same overwhelming Broadway/musical influence. That's not really me cherrypicking either, because I'm struggling to think of what songs would fit, because even Moment of Betrayal, which has a relatively similar structure to something like The Enemy Inside, does something distinctly different with that structure. Even a track like A Better Life which has a bit of guitar chunk in the verses, it has much more of an operatic Savatage vibe than it does the Rush inspired prog metal of DT12. Even with D/T, Room 137 is kind of a new beast even if it's still metal, S2N's grooves would absolutely not fit on any prior album and Pale Blue Dot's dark spacey grandeur doesn't really have a parallel. I mean, if the albums didn't sound so musically far apart at times, then people probably wouldn't rank them so drastically different sometimes.
The only thing is, from what I recall, Octavarium had no singles, (Panic Attack was a guitar hero or rock band single years later) and it was the last album under their record label at the time and it got little promotion. I think it was more that they wanted to do something that was the polar opposite of Train of Thought, which in my opinion they succeeded. To me, 8vm was the last album where they were a prog-metal band, instead of a metal band that plays prog. DT12 is certainly more metal than any of the first 8 Portnoy albums, except ToT of course.
I don't think DT12 is heavier than Awake or Six Degrees. It's loud, but comparatively rarely aggressive. It has False Awakening Suite, The Enemy Inside, Enigma Machine, Behind the Veil (other than the intro) and parts 2 and 4 of Illumination Theory but the rest of the album is pretty tame in that regard. Even then, nothing consistently has the sheer grit of The Mirror, Lie, Caught in a Web, The Glass Prison or War Inside My Head. Hell, even WDaDU is probably about level with it, given tracks like Afterlife, Light Fuse and Get Away and A Fortune in Lies, the production being the only thing holding it back from sounding as punchy as it could've. The distinction between prog metal and a metal band that plays prog is also strange given that... the latter is called prog metal. Progressive music has never been a genre unto itself, but more of a modifier for existing ones and given that Dream Theater's roots are the likes of Iron Maiden and Metallica alongside the more prog rock material, they've always shown that right from the start.
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I do agree with the idea that the reason that Octavarium was the way it was wasn't because of a desire to go mainstream, they already knew that the label wouldn't be having anything to do with that.
Exactly. If anything, that's what Systematic Chaos was. MP said they needed more "balls and chunk" and they were trying to be more relevant in the modern metal community.
On the contrary, Train of Thought was their take on a metal classic like Master of Puppets or Vulgar Display of Power, and 8vm was "another album by that band who had that song 'Pull Me Over' 20 years ago." not to mention the record label stuff (the same label more or less they had to deal with during FII)
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Keep in mind everything was a generalization. There are a few songs from the Mangini era I like. Each album has had at least one song I can honestly call a good song, despite the criticisms.
The main issue is the band's sound slowly stopped progressing some time between Train of Thought and Systematic Chaos, and they've just been running with that since, obviously with some tweaks here and there, and a change in drummers. It's all felt like DT by numbers, especially once MM joined. The Astonishing, while a different concept, was musically not far off from the previous album, just presented in a different context. The actual sound of the band is the same, same with DoT. I'm not talking production either, just the general vibe of the band. There is small changes but when I look at the totality of their albums, it's the first 8, which to me, each have their own identity; then the next 6*, which have different production values to tell them apart, but all sound like they come from the same pool of ideas every few years, and it comes off like pumping out another unit off the assembly line to me, with different color ties and bows to make it look different.
*SC sounds different than before but this has been the standard since, minus MP on drums. BC&SL they were already bringing back the major key stuff and the like.
Well again, bit of a contradction given that you say that SC has been the standard since, yet BC&SL was already a break from that. I don't know, can you really say that DT12 is that close to SC or that ADToE wasn't a significant shift from BC&SL? Like, it's an entirely different energy on there. Along for the Ride, The Bigger Picture, The Looking Glass, Surrender to Reason would all sound completely out of place. If you don't think TA is a huge deviation from their usual sound then I kind of don't know what to tell you. Brother Can You Hear Me, A Life Left Behind, Three Days, Chosen, Lord Nafaryus, Hymn of a Thousand Voices... do not sound like DT12, it just doesn't have that same overwhelming Broadway/musical influence. That's not really me cherrypicking either, because I'm struggling to think of what songs would fit, because even Moment of Betrayal, which has a relatively similar structure to something like The Enemy Inside, does something distinctly different with that structure. Even a track like A Better Life which has a bit of guitar chunk in the verses, it has much more of an operatic Savatage vibe than it does the Rush inspired prog metal of DT12. Even with D/T, Room 137 is kind of a new beast even if it's still metal, S2N's grooves would absolutely not fit on any prior album and Pale Blue Dot's dark spacey grandeur doesn't really have a parallel. I mean, if the albums didn't sound so musically far apart at times, then people probably wouldn't rank them so drastically different sometimes.
I brought up BC&SL because many fans of the new stuff cite ADTOE or DT12 as to when the band "went back to their old sound or brought back the beautiful sections and stopped being super metul". SC/BC&SL began the trend of "we must have heavy/riffy songs on every album" but I'm not saying the sound of those 2 albums is completely identical to the last 4, Mangini's drums do change the sound overall, JP's rhythm tone when playing riffs is a lot different on the Mangini albums as well. Throughout the albums, there's moments where I go "that reminds me of _____ DT album" and it's almost always recent DT stuff that I'm reminded of. Even on the new LTE album there were a couple of riffs that reminded me of Systematic Chaos and ADTOE. As I said earlier, similar pool of ideas swirling around these days, with no new methods of presenting them, as there are some 'new' ideas out there among the 4 Mangini albums. The exception being TA, but that was so long-winded that sticking to what they know is at least better so many their out of ideas or MP was the guy for creative stuff like that?
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I do agree with the idea that the reason that Octavarium was the way it was wasn't because of a desire to go mainstream, they already knew that the label wouldn't be having anything to do with that.
Exactly. If anything, that's what Systematic Chaos was. MP said they needed more "balls and chunk" and they were trying to be more relevant in the modern metal community.
On the contrary, Train of Thought was their take on a metal classic like Master of Puppets or Vulgar Display of Power, and 8vm was "another album by that band who had that song 'Pull Me Over' 20 years ago." not to mention the record label stuff (the same label more or less they had to deal with during FII)
These walls? I walk beside you? The answer lies within? These are not even almost proggy songs... even the root of all evil and panic attack just sound like modern metal.
Never enough sounds like a muse song.
Octavarium and sacrificed sons are proggy.
Maybe that’s what I mean by “going mainstream”.
None of the bands they were emulating were prog bands in any sense of the word and since the early 70’s going away from prog generally means getting more mainstream.
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Exactly. If anything, that's what Systematic Chaos was. MP said they needed more "balls and chunk" and they were trying to be more relevant in the modern metal community.
On the contrary, Train of Thought was their take on a metal classic like Master of Puppets or Vulgar Display of Power, and 8vm was "another album by that band who had that song 'Pull Me Over' 20 years ago." not to mention the record label stuff (the same label more or less they had to deal with during FII)
I mean, nah. If they were able to get the label to cooperate, there probably would've been videos for a couple tracks on Octavarium which could've easily made them look like they were making a play for stardom. I think they pay attention to what the fanbase thinks, but if they wanted a quick ticket to mainstream metal relevance, there are more obvious ways to do that than SC, a pretty varied 78 minute album with pretty vast stretches of more spaced out, lighter material. Mike Portnoy did say he wanted a more modern and aggressive sound, but he also didn't write the majority of the music and didn't tell the rest of the band during the process of creating the album.
These walls? I walk beside you? The answer lies within? These are not even almost proggy songs... even the root of all evil and panic attack just sound like modern metal.
Never enough sounds like a muse song.
Octavarium and sacrificed sons are proggy.
Maybe that’s what I mean by “going mainstream”.
None of the bands they were emulating were prog bands in any sense of the word and since the early 70’s going away from prog generally means getting more mainstream.
Yeah, I do think that's fair. Stylistically, Octavarium is probably one of their least musically progressive efforts, arguably in both senses of the word. The material is largely very streamlined and is highly derivative of other bands.
I brought up BC&SL because many fans of the new stuff cite ADTOE or DT12 as to when the band "went back to their old sound or brought back the beautiful sections and stopped being super metul". SC/BC&SL began the trend of "we must have heavy/riffy songs on every album" but I'm not saying the sound of those 2 albums is completely identical to the last 4, Mangini's drums do change the sound overall, JP's rhythm tone when playing riffs is a lot different on the Mangini albums as well. Throughout the albums, there's moments where I go "that reminds me of _____ DT album" and it's almost always recent DT stuff that I'm reminded of. Even on the new LTE album there were a couple of riffs that reminded me of Systematic Chaos and ADTOE. As I said earlier, similar pool of ideas swirling around these days, with no new methods of presenting them, as there are some 'new' ideas out there among the 4 Mangini albums. The exception being TA, but that was so long-winded that sticking to what they know is at least better so many their out of ideas or MP was the guy for creative stuff like that?
Wait... but there are heavy/riffy songs on every DT album. Octavarium has The Root of All Evil, Panic Attack and Never Enough while even Falling Into Infinity has Burning My Soul and Just Let Me Breathe. SC might have more heavier tracks but it's not like it's incessant or obligatory. Hell, there are even a decent amount of parallels between the two albums, like These Walls and Forsaken, Never Enough and Prophets of War, Panic Attack and Constant Motion, Sacrificed Sons and The Ministry of Lost Souls etc. so in a way, it's kind of like a compromise between the streamlined accessibility of Octavarium and the aggressive and complex material of Train of Thought, while also bringing some new things to the table.
With regards to newer albums reminding you of other new albums, that may very well be just because Dream Theater's stylistic shift has generally been a gradual one. Even with early albums, Innocence Faded wouldn't sound out of place on Images and Words, nor would Under a Glass Moon sound that jarring on the debut. Train of Thought models itself on the kind of reaction The Glass Prison got and the titular epic of Six Degrees feels very much in the spirit of Scenes from a Memory. I think the issue is that as new albums come out, we recognise their stylistic fingerprint more and more, so we may percieve them as being closer together than they really are.
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On the contrary, Train of Thought was their take on a metal classic like Master of Puppets or Vulgar Display of Power, and 8vm was "another album by that band who had that song 'Pull Me Over' 20 years ago." not to mention the record label stuff (the same label more or less they had to deal with during FII)
Train of Thought was 95% heavy and aggressive because they had just come off the 6DOIT tour where they featured a lot of heavy and aggressive songs in the setlist, and noticed that those songs had the best crowd responses, so they wanted to make a whole album of songs like that.
They didn't have any record label issues after FII, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. Beginning with SFAM, they self-produced, and the label basically never heard anything until the albums were done. No influence, no meddling.
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On the contrary, Train of Thought was their take on a metal classic like Master of Puppets or Vulgar Display of Power, and 8vm was "another album by that band who had that song 'Pull Me Over' 20 years ago." not to mention the record label stuff (the same label more or less they had to deal with during FII)
Train of Thought was 95% heavy and aggressive because they had just come off the 6DOIT tour where they featured a lot of heavy and aggressive songs in the setlist, and noticed that those songs had the best crowd responses, so they wanted to make a whole album of songs like that.
They didn't have any record label issues after FII, so I'm not sure what you mean by that. Beginning with SFAM, they self-produced, and the label basically never heard anything until the albums were done. No influence, no meddling.
It was still their attempt at making a classic metal album.
As far as I recall, the label did not do much promotion for their new albums, thus why they shopped around for a new label that would, like Roadrunner. Putting out your last album with a label that tolerates you but doesn't promote your albums doesn't help your chances of being able to hit the mainstream. As I said, I don't think they were trying to do that with 8vm, merely they were trying to make an album that was the antithesis of ToT, with an epic closer because they were going to do big 20th anniversary celebrations. But after creating more metallic music for an album cycle, I think the band lost something that only Octavarium the song kept alive for one last time. The Count of Tuscany has kind of been the only thing to come close to classic DT material for me since.
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Maybe ADToE is getting lost in the discussion here, because the last 21 minutes or so of that album are not very metallic at all, other than pretty much just the second verse of Breaking all Illusions. On the Backs of Angels may be more metallic, but it's also very restrained and a good chunk of it is far more prog rock than prog metal, same goes for a song like Outcry, not to mention the chilled vibes of This is the Life. That really just leaves 28 minutes of consistently metal material (BMUBMD, LNF and BitS) on a 77 minute album. That's... not a ton. Even if we give the benefit of the doubt and add those two tracks to that, that's around 47 minutes and 60% of at least kind of metal material, with the rest being pretty unambigously not, barring about a minute.
By comparison, SC is around 58%, which is also not really a lot. Awake... has a whopping 71% of songs that are predominantly metal, while WDaDU has 76%. Images is a bit milder at 57% and Scenes at 54%, with Six Degrees at a surprisingly low 42% (I guess I keep remembering The Glass Prison and The Test That Stumped Them All and associate those tracks with the rest) and Octavarium at a predictably low 33%. Black Clouds would count at 74%, but I'll cheat a bit and remove half of The Count of Tuscany, considering it's such a long song and that the metal pretty much disappears after the first half unlike ITPoE and get 61%. ToT is a very predictable 95% of course, while FII is the lowest at 32%. As for the MM era:
-DT12 has 58%, again cheating a bit and taking a 5 min chunk out of Illumination Theory due to the hidden track and The Embracing Circle
-TA has 42%, which might be surprising to those who thought this was the softest DT album, but is still relatively low
-D/T has 76%, somthing which should probably surprise nobody
That means that in order of most to least metal in terms of the minute count of tracks that have it as its focus, it goes: ToT, WDaDU and D/T tied, Awake, BC&SL, ADToE, SC and DT12 tied, I&W, SfaM, SDoIT and TA tied, Octavarium and finally FII. Everything from Black Clouds to SfaM is within 7 percentage points, so that's pretty much within the normal levels. Everything Awake and above, as well as SDoIT/TA and below is really the outlier here, given that there's over a 10 point jump either way. Everything from SC to DT12 was in a pretty comfortable balance, with two extremes following that run. In conclusion I guess, it's not so much that they over rely on the metal since SC and more that they found a pleasant middle ground and mined that for a while before being a bit more daring in their focus again.
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Outcry is not prog. It's a pop structured rock anthem song with a through-composed middle section that has nothing to do with the song.
However, many of the reasons you cite is why I think ADTOE is still the best post-MP DT album. Since then it has been a case of diminishing returns.
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It was still their attempt at making a classic metal album.
What do you mean, and where did you get this? That's not what they said at the time, and I've never seen this said by them.
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Outcry is not prog. It's a pop structured rock anthem song with a through-composed middle section that has nothing to do with the song.
However, many of the reasons you cite is why I think ADTOE is still the best post-MP DT album. Since then it has been a case of diminishing returns.
...uh, what? Outcry does not have a pop structure just because it has verses and a chorus (the only two repetitions of which are like 5 minutes away and in a different key). Aren't through composed middle sections like... a very prog metal thing to do and pretty much disrupt the notion of it being a pop structure in and of itself (the key to pop structures being the quick gratification of hooks, mind you)? Prog metal is often about the components that make up a whole, not always the sound of one of its parts in and of itself. You've basically just said "it's not prog, apart from the explicitly prog aspect of its structure that I'm going to ignore by saying it doesn't count" which, surely you can see how that runs into a few issues. By the same token, King Crimson's Starless is just a rock ballad with an instrumental section "that has nothing to do with the song" afterwards, until the reprise at the very end. A very similar logic could be applied to something like Sacrificed Sons or Blind Faith.
Maybe it's just me as well, but doesn't having an instrumental section like that fit pretty well with the themes of revolution, like a musical display of the chaos of unrest? Thamatically, I'd say it has a lot to do with the song. But, if you're not claiming it as a prog metal track and instead as a "pop structured rock anthem song", then you ironically prove my point even more that ADToE isn't exactly overwhelmingly metal at 47% of its songs having it as its predominant feature, less than Images and Scenes.
The thing is, after ADToE you have one fairly heavy album, but not really much more than average, then one that's really not that metal at all, then one that's much heavier than average. I don't know, it sure seems like their supposed idea of "we must have heavy/riffy songs on every album" is very inconsistently applied over the years. It's not really any different to the sort of variability they had in the past in that regard, so I'm not sure this is what your issue with the newer material is.
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I remember James said in an interview, that Outcry is a pure prog metal song...
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Outcry is not prog. It's a pop structured rock anthem song with a through-composed middle section that has nothing to do with the song.
The song was based on uprisings in Egypt and the Middle East, and the instrumental section definitely has a Middle Eastern feel, so not sure what you mean by that.
It's as prog as something like Endless Sacrifice. Take that for what it's worth.
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Yeah I've got to emphasise, "Outcry is not prog" is probably one of the most bizarre DT-related takes I've ever heard. Other than Breaking All Illusions (and at a stretch... maaaybe Bridges in the Sky, but I still think Outcry has the edge in this regard), it's about as prog as it gets on the album and in the runnings for being one of the most prog DT songs of the last 10 years. Extended length, odd time signatures (even outside of the instrumental section), extremely dynamic and has a non standard structure with plenty of light and shade. Sure, it has an anthemic chorus, but there's nothing saying that a song can't be anthemic and progressive.
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Outcry is not prog.
I'd argue the other way round and say that Outcry is actually the most 'progressive' song, both in structure and lyrically, that Dream Theater have done since MP left the band.
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It was still their attempt at making a classic metal album.
What do you mean, and where did you get this? That's not what they said at the time, and I've never seen this said by them.
Portnoy said it back in the day. I thin ‘classic metal album’ is the exact phrase he used. Then he would reference Master of Puppets and Number of the Beast because they had just covered those. Like...that’s the kind of album they were going for.
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It was still their attempt at making a classic metal album.
What do you mean, and where did you get this? That's not what they said at the time, and I've never seen this said by them.
Portnoy said it back in the day. I thin ‘classic metal album’ is the exact phrase he used. Then he would reference Master of Puppets and Number of the Beast because they had just covered those. Like...that’s the kind of album they were going for.
Correct.
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If ToT was an attempt at making a classic metal album, then the disaster was greater than I remembered.
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Well, fine.
Do you remember the context? Like, is that what they thought after they recorded it? Because I distinctly remember them saying it was based on the kinds of songs they had played on the tour and the responses to them (not just the Metallica and Iron Maiden covers, they were only done once or twice). I don't remember the intention to make a "classic metal album", so I'm just curious about the context of the comment.
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I don't think either of you are wrong, because I don't see those as being inconsistent with one another. I do remember Mike making that comment, and probably more than once (or it may simply have been repeated so much that it seemed so). But I don't remember where (too long ago). The general context was him describing the mindset when they went into the studio, which was basically, "we went into the studio wanting to make our own classic metal album, like our own Master of Puppets or [I forget what other album(s) he may have mentioned]." That's my best paraphrase.
You may also be remembering how he put it in the liner notes for the TOT demos, where he said: "After covering two 'classic metal' albums on the 2002 tour (Metallica's Master of Puppets and Iron Maiden's The Number of the Beast), we were in the mood to try and write a similar type of album of our own." To me, that is, again, in line with what both of you are saying.
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I don't think either of you are wrong, because I don't see those as being inconsistent with one another. I do remember Mike making that comment, and probably more than once (or it may simply have been repeated so much that it seemed so). But I don't remember where (too long ago). The general context was him describing the mindset when they went into the studio, which as basically, "we went into the studio wanting to make our own classic metal album, like our own Master of Puppets or [I forget what other album(s) he may have mentioned." That's my best paraphrase.
You may also be remembering how he put it in the liner notes for the TOT demos, where he said: "After covering two 'classic metal' albums on the 2002 tour (Metallica's Master of Puppets and Iron Maiden's The Number of the Beast), we were in the mood to try and write a similar type of album of our own." To me, that is, again, in line with what both of you are saying.
Yeah, there are two senses of the word classic at play. They were inspired by those “classic metal” albums, and they wanted to create their own metal album that might be considered a metal classic someday. But clearly they were also trying to sound more like a modern metal band than just sound like Metallica or Maiden.
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One is how Mike described it, and the other is how JP described it. I remember Mike saying that on the MP forum after it was released. Maybe even pre-release. Actually...didn’t he say it on the making of Train of Thought doc that was on the CD?
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OK, JP described Train of Thought the way I was thinking (based on crowd response to aggressive songs) on the SCORE documentary ("The Score So Far").
MP, on the Chaos in Progress documentary, described wanting Train of Thought to be a "balls to the wall" album with heavy riffing to appeal to new metal fans.
I don't know yet where the "classic metal album" comment came from, but maybe it was just on MP's forum after all, like Trav86 mentioned. If it be so, then so be it.
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And in the TOT Demos liner notes that I quoted above.
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I'm pretty aware of DT history, though I've never read their official biography Lifting Shadows. Just going by what I recall reading throughout this site and others over the years.
About Outcry, I don't think inserting a through composed section into a basically simple metal song makes it progressive. I don't think Endless Sacrifice is prog either. Metropolis pt 1 did it first and at least Metropolis pt 1 has a more complex song structure that also has a crazy instrumental section that flows well in and out of the song proper, and feels like it belongs to the same piece of music.
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It kind of does, though. A through composed section with that many time signature shifts (which btw, just for emphasis again, isn't even exclusive to the instrumental section, listen to the pre-chorus) and other advanced elements makes a song hella prog. It eats up a very significant part of the song's run-time (and imo is a logical conclusion to the build-up of tension of that second verse), so is just as crucial a part of the track as the less musically dense part is.
Endless Sacrifice is also a prog metal song, even with the mid-section being more of a jam on riffs than being through composed. It has time signature changes (I repeat, both in the instrumental section and in the rest), is extended length, is a mix of stylistic elements and is very dynamic, just like Outcry. Whether you think it's well executed is another thing (I do in both cases, but that's beside the point), but that doesn't change what these tracks are. I'm not really sure what your standard for prog metal is if these don't make the grade. Is Train of Thought not a progressive metal album other than Stream of Consciousness and This Dying Soul, now?
And again... Outcry doesn't have a normal structure even if it didn't have that instrumental section. The way the end of the second verse ("The streets are bathed in blood") doesn't lead into the chorus again, as well as the insertion of that pre-chorus ("we've suffered far too long") that doesn't repeat in the same manner, alongside both verses having a different musical backing is not something that happens is a regularly structured pop song, at least not all at once.
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I'm pretty aware of DT history, though I've never read their official biography Lifting Shadows. Just going by what I recall reading throughout this site and others over the years.
About Outcry, I don't think inserting a through composed section into a basically simple metal song makes it progressive. I don't think Endless Sacrifice is prog either. Metropolis pt 1 did it first and at least Metropolis pt 1 has a more complex song structure that also has a crazy instrumental section that flows well in and out of the song proper, and feels like it belongs to the same piece of music.
Then I'd like to know your definition of 'prog', because both songs are arguably progressive metal. No, they're not 'progressive' in the literal sense that they're actually pushing boundaries and doing something new, but they contain traits and characteristics of progressive metal music. Also 'Metropolis did it first' is demonstrably false, because prog music had existed way before Metropolis was ever written, so by that account Metropolis is not prog either.
At least lyrically I can explain the middle section in Outcry and this song does a far better job at story-telling than Metropolis OR Endless Sacrifice (or a lot of other DT songs, to be honest actually..) So, regarding Outcry (again), I think you're completely missing the point to this song, because as far as I see it, it is NOT a 'simple metal song'. Let's break it down...
We start with an intro, outlining the main chorus melody in the keys, but it's unfinished.
In come the other instrument, the entire chorus is played in Bm, without vocals.
Some sort of main riff comes afterwards.
We have the verse on syncopated low B's
Second half of the verse ("the rebel in us all...") over odd time signatures
The 'Pre-Chorus' the suddenly gets quiet, as a means to build up to the chorus
Aaand here it is. But what? It's in a different key! The chorus is played in E instead of in B as heard before.
Here's that 'main riff' thing after the chorus, although played slightly different. And this time, the vocals go over this one, instead on the syncopated Bs. While harmonically similar, this riff drive the vocals more forward.
"The streets are bathed in blood" section (similar to 'the rebel in us all').
And maybe now's a good time to actually take a loot at the lyrics and what they imply. They're about the various uprisings in the middle east, and some Middle Eastern influence is actually clearly audible in the instrumental section. If you consider the last lyrical section, which I'll copy below for your convenience, I think it's pretty damn clear that the entire instrumental is actually a musical depiction of a struggle, a rebellion, or uprising. The jagged rhythms, the seemingly incoherent parts, it's almost as of the musician's are in a battle with each other as well. To me, this instrumental section makes so much more sense than some of the other instrumental parts in DT's songs that really seem to be put in just to be there. This one actually has a purpose,
"The streets are bathed in blood
Time to step down and time to walk away
You'll never rule me now
Though you may stand upon my grave"
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After the battle is over, we get to a piano break, the 'aftermath' so to say, followed by the "Freedom's worth the fight" lyrical section that's almost bleak in nature. James's vocal delivery here portrays the hopelessness of the situation, but then we get to what's arguably the best part of the song, which is the last time the chorus comes in.
This is not a triumphant return to the the chorus, one that's even more exaggerated by the fact that it's repeated twice. Having heard the chorus just once so far (in Em) at the beginning, it may have felt glorious back then, empowering, with high vocals to back that up. This version at the end is a fourth lower, in Bm. I'm absolutely sure that this is an intentional song-writing choice. Playing this chorus lower than the original emphasises that the entire situation is hopeless, though the rebellion is till trying. The last lines of lyrics further drive this point home. "Locked in a kingdom of fear, as our children die."
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Quick recap, without even dissecting the instrumental section:
Intro
Intro Pt. 2 (Chorus Riff)
Intro Pt. 3 (Main Riff)
Verse 1
Verse 1 Pt. 2
Pre-Chorus
Chorus
Verse 2 (over 'Main Riff')
Verse 2 Pt. 2
Instrumental Section
Break
Different Pre-Chorus
Chorus in Bm (twice)
Outro
That hardly looks like the structure of a 'simple metal song', unless you'll twist that definition.
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I know I said in a post above that Outcry might be the 'most progressive' song Dream Theater have written since MP left the band and while I of course can't be certain of that, I think it's worth noticing that this song is actually about some meaningful, a real-life event and it tries to depict that musically as well as lyrically. A lot of the so-called 'prog music' (DT often included) often doesn't do this and plays stuff for the sake of playing, with lyrics tacked on to the track that don't really mean anything, or seem like an afterthought. I know that's generalising, but I hope you get the point. Outcry though, is a synthesis of both the music and lyrics and the more I think about this, this song is far better than people give it credit for.
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*snip*
Fantastic breakdown of the track. Emphasises how much thought was put into Outcry (and the extent to its progressive nature) very well, I think it's one of DT's modern masterpieces for the reasons described. It's just so incredibly evocative and cinematic in its structure.
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And in the TOT Demos liner notes that I quoted above.
You're right, of course. Sorry, boss.
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*snip*
Fantastic breakdown of the track. Emphasises how much thought was put into Outcry (and the extent to its progressive nature) very well, I think it's one of DT's modern masterpieces for the reasons described. It's just so incredibly evocative and cinematic in its structure.
Yup. Thanks Elite, I don't have the musical knowledge to write what you did. The only thing holding back this amazing song and others on ADToE is the shitty production.
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After reading the discussion from the last 2 pages, it seems one of the main arguments is whether DT is incorporating their instrumental genius into the flow of the songs and not have it be an unnecessary distraction. I happen to feel they are accomplishing that extremely well since MM joined, because they don't lose focus on melody.
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After reading the discussion from the last 2 pages, it seems one of the main arguments is whether DT is incorporating their instrumental genius into the flow of the songs and not have it be an unnecessary distraction. I happen to feel they are accomplishing that extremely well since MM joined, because they don't lose focus on melody.
This. If there is a connection with the MM albums and classic, pre-Jordan, albums it’s this.
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OK, JP described Train of Thought the way I was thinking (based on crowd response to aggressive songs) on the SCORE documentary ("The Score So Far").
MP, on the Chaos in Progress documentary, described wanting Train of Thought to be a "balls to the wall" album with heavy riffing to appeal to new metal fans.
I don't know yet where the "classic metal album" comment came from, but maybe it was just on MP's forum after all, like Trav86 mentioned. If it be so, then so be it.
One other thing I distinctly remember MP saying was that they wanted all the songs on ToT to be heavy hitters - not just in heaviness - but also an album of songs that really got the crowd going. Songs that always got a great response like Home, The Mirror and Pull Mu Under. They viewed Master of Puppets, Number of the Beast and Rush's Moving Pictures as examples of what they wanted to achieve, even if not stylistically the same.
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To be fair, you can see it in the album's structure too. As I Am bears a resemblance to Enter Sandman in being the catchy mid-paced lead off track, Endless Sacrifice as the Fade to Black / One style half-ballad and Stream of Consciousness being the contemplative lengthy instrumental in the vein of Orion.
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I&W obviously most commercially successful
IMO I&W + Awake were artistic height
But SFaM - 8vm was where the band cemented their legacy.
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Being a Metallican growing up, I did’nt know Dream Theater until a couple of years ago. Therefore, memorizing album releases related to your own history is remarkable short for me. Althought I dived in a lot, red Lifting Shadows and listened to all albums over and over.
To me, I think when Portnoy left the band, althought the founder and one of the masterminds leaved the building, there also became more balance. Rudess filled the void (and did so with verve) and there was less arguing ‘bout lyrics and chords.
The style is still DT without a doubt, but they seemes to have reached a harmonic state of mind. Therefore, to me, ADTOE and DT12 is there best era. Breaking the Fourth Wall is a absolute masterpeace from start tot finish.
I red the book The Astonishing and that helped me a lot in appreciate the album more.
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Scenes - Octavarium.
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Thinking about it some moore, I think they peaked with Kevin Moore during IaW-Awake era, then peaked AGAIN with Rudess, from Scenes to Octavarium. The Moore era just happened to be their most commercially successful period, but 99-06 might be their most critically acclaimed era.
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I got into DT around 2006. Everything from Scenes to Octavarium just felt like magic. Like perfect music. Without doubt their best run of 4 albums.
I could never get into the first 3 albums. And they lost something on Systematic Chaos onwards which I felt they didn't get back fully until Distance Over Time.
I have High Hopes for DT15. I think it will be the form they rediscovered on Distance Over Time - but maybe even more so.
I think the Mangini era is their second best 'era' with ADTOE - D/T their 2nd best run of 4.
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My personal love for the band peaked with the release of Score in 2006. It felt like everything came together to create one magical moment where the band was on top of the prog world.
In terms of studio albums, I think that their run from Images & Words through Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence was probably my favorite, but I also don't consider Dream Theater to be an "album band" to the same extent as, say, Steven Wilson. I'm perfectly content with jumping around and playing different tracks depending on my mood, and for the most part, every era has a handful of songs that are simply incredible.
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I got into DT around 2006. Everything from Scenes to Octavarium just felt like magic. Like perfect music. Without doubt their best run of 4 albums.
I could never get into the first 3 albums. And they lost something on Systematic Chaos onwards which I felt they didn't get back fully until Distance Over Time.
I have High Hopes for DT15. I think it will be the form they rediscovered on Distance Over Time - but maybe even more so.
I think the Mangini era is their second best 'era' with ADTOE - D/T their 2nd best run of 4.
This!
Honestly, for someone who has been listening to the band for 25 years, I find it beyond impressive that I'm still excited for a new release—that alone is a testament to the band and what they've managed to build and sustain.
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For some reason, i had not listen to Octavarium (song) in quite some times...
I think it truly represent a closure to a period in which the band was regarded with this sort of an aura of a very serious entity with a very, very well respected catalog - maybe it wasn't everyone cup of tea, of course the fan base was divided, well, everytime since I&W, nontheless everyone had some sort of respect for them.
Oddly enough, Score failed in representing in full how magnificent was that tour and how strong the band was - there are some footage left from the South American leg and a gig in Seoul, do yourself a favour and go listen to those.
Then came vampires, demons, freemasonry, the count of tuscany, Persians, that nightmare that is The Astonishing as a "story" - thank god i don't give a damn about lyrics - very weird stage presentation, especially when the budget couldn't meet the intentions of the band (i.e. The Astonishing tour), fake backgound voices, bad mixes (Octavarium may have the guitar a little low on the mix, but other than that is second only to FII in terms of mixing and one of the few very good quality mixes in DT catalog).
Of course the age is not the same as 15 years ago, who would deny that, but i think some decisions more than anything have contribute in exposing this band to more criticism than they, and we, would have hoped.
Luckily, D/T seems to have reverse this discendent curve, and although hopes for a return to that golden run that started with I&W and ended with 8VM are just a personal, impossible, desire, expectations for this next one and the following tour aren't that low...
p.s. i know it takes a big portion of the set, but please DT, bring back 8VM for another run on the next tour.
p.p.s. i'll never undestand why JP would define their old sound as "immature", i mean i get it but and it's certenly right to a certain extent but as far as i'm concerned, that of I&W and the Awake tours was just perfect (especially his).
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I think it truly represent a closure to a period in which the band was regarded with this sort of an aura of a very serious entity with a very, very well respected catalog - maybe it wasn't everyone cup of tea, of course the fan base was divided, well, everytime since I&W, nontheless everyone had some sort of respect for them.
Oddly enough, Score failed in representing in full how magnificent was that tour and how strong the band was - there are some footage left from the South American leg and a gig in Seoul, do yourself a favour and go listen to those.
Then came vampires, demons, freemasonry, the count of tuscany, Persians, that nightmare that is The Astonishing...
Couldn't agree more. They've released some incredibly good stuff since, but as an album, nothing has come close to 8VM. It remains their last truly great album. Also agree with you on Score, a very disappointing live album from a fantastic tour. Did we really need the obscure songs in the first set? Did we really need a full and rather listless 6DOIT dominating the second set? The CD version sounds awful, like there's cushions over the speakers. The Live in Santiago DVD they released on YtseJam was so much better, and what the "proper" live release should have been.
And while I'm here, Outcry > everything on The Astonishing
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Also agree with you on Score, a very disappointing live album from a fantastic tour. Did we really need the obscure songs in the first set?
Yes we did! Of course, there are some things I would've done differently for that show, but including those rarities would have been an absolute must.
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Album wise (pre-Jordan): 1992-1995
Album wise (w Jordan): 1999-2004
Live wise: 1999-2004
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Best Era : Scenes From A Memory - Octavarium
Second Best Era : A Dramatic Turn Of Events - Present.