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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: Samsara on August 07, 2020, 09:34:19 AM
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This post was spurred a bit by a constant comment I see on DTF regarding Mike Portnoy and his "typical" drumming or fills.
Obviously, opinion is welcome, but I don't understand comments like this. It reeks of underhanded Portnoy bashing, no matter how artfully constructed those kind of comments are. Have we gotten so spoiled by the abilities of guys like Portnoy and others (I've seen it thrown at a bunch of different musicians on here) that we take it for granted?
I know the community here is full of great musicians. Some of whom have had incredible success. But newsflash, most of this commentary regarding Portnoy and his "typical" drumming comes from folks that will never achieve a fraction of the success MP has had, nor even sniff his ability level. It reeks of jealousy and pettiness.
Yes, as fans, we are consumers, and we have a "right" to express our opinions. I'm not saying that. But every single time something comes up with Portnoy playing, you see the constant comments of "typical." Well, what do you expect? The guy has been a professional touring progressive musician for 35 years. His style is cemented, what he does is cemented. Let's take another drummer -- Brann Dailor of Mastodon. Dude receives tons of praise. But honestly, while I love Brann, his drumming is fully established, and you hear similar fills and such throughout everything he plays on. Let's go another. My favorite drummer, personally -- Morgan Rose of Sevendust. I'm an uber Alien Freak fan of his drumming. But on everything he appears on, Morgan sounds like Morgan.
So simply put, I don't know what people expect from Mike Portnoy. He's one of the most talented and respected drummers in the history of heavy rock and progressive music. Criticism is a part of the gig, for sure. But this whole strain of "typical" comments regarding his playing is ridiculous.
/soapbox
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I hear you Brian.
I think a guy can only play drums so many ways, especially in a certain genre. Instead of "typical", I just prefer to call it his "style". And it's a style that made him my favorite drummer.
I enjoyed hearing MP on the new JP song. It felt familiar. I liked that.
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Why a separate thread on this?
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Bruh he's one of the world's most famous and prolific drummers. People like to talk about how musicians' playing styles evolve or change and in Portnoy's case it's a valid criticism that he's become a little predictable with respect to pulling out the same kind of fills and tricks, and he's gone on record about how he rarely practices or tries new things, so it's completely valid. I don't think anybody's going around just bashing him senselessly. Especially for fellow musicians, we like to talk about other musicians. This ain't nothing new for Mike, this subject's been going on for well over 10 years, maybe a lot longer than that even, and he certainly ain't the only one. It just comes with the territory of being a famous and well respected musician. Particularly one who has been praised and won so many awards like Mike. And perhaps because of that, the standard is elevated in his case. I dunno. But I think it's fair.
Edit: I have not heard the new JP song
But newsflash, most of this commentary regarding Portnoy and his "typical" drumming comes from folks that will never achieve a fraction of the success MP has had, nor even sniff his ability level. It reeks of jealousy and pettiness.
So success should make you immune from criticism, or it should sanitize all discussion of their playing? You can't criticize a musician unless you can play at their level? Nah fam. I'm nowhere near Jordan Rudess's piano skills, but I can criticize his playing.
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While I understand some of the criticisms about MP’s style and usual tricks, I do think it would be weird for MP to not be his trademarked self on a release like this. People are stoked about MP and JP being together again, so give the people what they want. But beyond that, it’s JP’s solo album, so I wouldn’t expect MP to outdo himself putting down some new and amazing drum techniques. His job here is to be somewhat predictable (could say the same about LaRue, who isn’t doing anything extra flashy).
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Honestly, as many have said before, I only think this is a big deal because of how many releases he does.
Michael Romeo is one of the most repetitive guitarists I've ever heard. But he only releases an album every 3-4 years, so no one talks about it. If Michael Romeo released 4 albums per year, they'd be just as harsh about his bag of tricks as Portnoy.
And as I have said before too, I don't see anyone in DT really pushing any envelopes for the most part either. But that's one release every 2-3 years, so again not something we pay much attention to.
If Portnoy released an album every 2 years, I doubt we'd be talking too much about it.
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Honestly, as many have said before, I only think this is a big deal because of how many releases he does.
Michael Romeo is one of the most repetitive guitarists I've ever heard. But he only releases an album every 3-4 years, so no one talks about it. If Michael Romeo released 4 albums per year, they'd be just as harsh about his bag of tricks as Portnoy.
My thoughts exactly.
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And as I have said before too, I don't see anyone in DT really pushing any envelopes for the most part either. But that's one release every 2-3 years, so again not something we pay much attention to.
The drumming in S2n and Pale Blue Dot is not pushing the envelope?
And for the topic of a drummer not sounding that much different over two decades, here's a 2002 Mangini:
Stones by Sal Difusco (https://open.spotify.com/track/36FFzXAN0g3wTjuXik6Fw1?si=4iT_tT2kSW2xfTyESa8bMA)
And a 2018 Mangini:
Challenge Accepted by Into The Great Divide (https://open.spotify.com/track/2ALK1czhZ0NkdMkHlGd0BM?si=6jKoW44iSiePpydcTh8hEg)
If you're used to hearing MM, you would know it is him. But I would be hard pressed to say it's the same bag of tricks. And they are both work for hire gigs.
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And as I have said before too, I don't see anyone in DT really pushing any envelopes for the most part either. But that's one release every 2-3 years, so again not something we pay much attention to.
The drumming in S2n and Pale Blue Dot is not pushing the envelope?
And for the topic of a drummer not sounding that much different over two decades, here's a 2002 Mangini:
Stones by Sal Difusco (https://open.spotify.com/track/36FFzXAN0g3wTjuXik6Fw1?si=4iT_tT2kSW2xfTyESa8bMA)
And a 2018 Mangini:
Challenge Accepted by Into The Great Divide (https://open.spotify.com/track/2ALK1czhZ0NkdMkHlGd0BM?si=6jKoW44iSiePpydcTh8hEg)
If you're used to hearing MM, you would know it is him. But I would be hard pressed to say it's the same bag of tricks. And they are both work for hire gigs.
Thank you.
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Is he changing up technical things? Sure.
Is his approach changing really? Nope. Same bag of tricks, just in a different sense than Portnoy.
Also, I shouldn't have to do a detailed analysis of his drumming and it's relation to each note being played to notice anything different. If you do, awesome, then that's perfect for you. But when it's a precondition in general, then it falls flat.
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Honestly, as many have said before, I only think this is a big deal because of how many releases he does.
That's a great point Adami, and one I didn't consider - over-saturation. Still though, it seems sort of silly to me that people would complain about someone sounding like themselves. When I listen to a record I know has Portnoy on it, I expect...Portnoy.
When a new band starts out, all the musicians are developing their style. You hear changes in their style over the years. And at some point, they are just who they are, and that's what you expect when listening to them. They become themselves. I just think the "typical" comments are ridiculously unwarranted given the fact that established musicians are who they are.
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People have too high of expectations. There's only so much you can do with the drums especially thirty something years into your career. With that said, Portnoy hasn't really done much too impress me with his drumming lately but I also don't expect him to. It's not a bad thing or a good thing. It's just a thing.
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My issue comes more with the "bang it out as quick as possible" mentality which results in a lot of repetition. I get that he's busy and involved in multiple projects, but more consideration towards writing unique drum parts would be beneficial towards making his performances stand out from album to album.
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I thought it was actually refreshing to hear Mike's signature patterns in combination with Petrucci's playing, we haven't experienced that in a while.
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It’s hilarious that MP would receive this criticism when far more famous drummers like Watts, Paice, McBrain, Ulrich, Travis etc have been doing the exact same things every record for up to 50 years or more.
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I actually think Nicko has gotten better with age.
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I really don't know what the beef is about MP's "sound" or "style". Fuck, every musician has a sound or style - whether playing or writing. Anyone could pick out an Yngvie song/solo over a JP one from a police lineup. Michael Anthony on the bass... pretty easy to identify. Same with Geddy. Writing styles too - if you've heard one Magnus Karlsson album, you've heard 'em all (pretty sure I heard that from a fellow DTF poster recently).
So why any bellyachin over MP and his sound/style/repetitiveness? 1000s of artists could be accused as such. Doesn't mean they aren't still awesome.
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I really don't know what the beef is about MP's "sound" or "style". Fuck, every musician has a sound or style - whether playing or writing. Anyone could pick out an Yngvie song/solo over a JP one from a police lineup. Michael Anthony on the bass... pretty easy to identify. Same with Geddy. Writing styles too - if you've heard one Magnus Karlsson album, you've heard 'em all (pretty sure I heard that from a fellow DTF poster recently).
So why any bellyachin over MP and his sound/style/repetitiveness? 1000s of artists could be accused as such. Doesn't mean they aren't still awesome.
That would be me, and I think it's a valid complaint of any artist who pretty much has one sound and hammers away at it with little or no deviation. Even some of my favorite acts are guilty of that. MK is awesome and writes great stuff from time to time but that's his biggest flaw. But to be fair that's a criticism that many in his genre bubble are guilty of and it's not THAT big a deal tbh
As has already been noted, I think the alleged bellyachin' is from how often MP releases albums, in other words it sounds like he phones in some of his parts, or that he's not putting in the time and effort he probably should
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Is he changing up technical things? Sure.
Is his approach changing really? Nope. Same bag of tricks, just in a different sense than Portnoy.
Also, I shouldn't have to do a detailed analysis of his drumming and it's relation to each note being played to notice anything different. If you do, awesome, then that's perfect for you. But when it's a precondition in general, then it falls flat.
I don't think you even listen to any track we offer to counter your arguments because you have always been preconceived to undermine Mangini in all your posts. Because if you really bother to listen to the tracks, you would be hard pressed to say with a straight face that the approach to the drums were the same.
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Is he changing up technical things? Sure.
Is his approach changing really? Nope. Same bag of tricks, just in a different sense than Portnoy.
Also, I shouldn't have to do a detailed analysis of his drumming and it's relation to each note being played to notice anything different. If you do, awesome, then that's perfect for you. But when it's a precondition in general, then it falls flat.
I don't think you even listen to any track we offer to counter your arguments because you have always been preconceived to undermine Mangini in all your posts. Because if you really bother to listen to the tracks, you would be hard pressed to say with a straight face that the approach to the drums were the same.
I did listen. He did a cool little thing in the middle of the first one and a cool intro in the second. The rest? Sounds like typical Mangini.
Plus we can find a random MP song from 20 years ago and point out how diverse he is too. I’m talking about MM in DT since that’s mostly where I hear him. But the stuff you sent me sounds like (mostly) typical MM. I like the guy but his drumming stands out and I don’t feel his approach.
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MP's drum sound did evolve a lot. His drums in Awake has lots of new elements not heard in I&W. His FII brought new elements not in Awake. It plateaud in SDOIT. From then on, you could pretty much say that that style became the MP signature that we can still hear today.
I actually miss the Awake-era MP and wish he could go back to that from time to time. That would be a pleasant surprise.
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I like Portnoy's typical drumming, I go to Portnoy for it, I'd be rather confused if I went to Portnoy and found someone else's drumming.
This kinda goes for all musicians as far as I'm concerned, that's why I shrug when a band puts an album out and people would go "It sounds like the stuff they did before", yeah that's why I got it, cause I liked the stuff from before and I wanted more of it, when I want something different I go to a different band.
I don't go to the baker's and bitch about them not having meat, "Oh you're making bread again? lame".
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I don't go to the baker's and bitch about them not having meat, "Oh you're making bread again? lame".
Right?
You don't go in there and say, "As much as I learned to love your bread, How come you're not improving your bread?" :lol
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:lol
And it goes the other way around too! I cannot think of a band that significantly altered their sound and kept me on board. Most notably happens when a prog metal band goes full on metal, now THAT is like walking into the baker's to get your warm fresh loaf of bread and finding meat hanging from hooks everywhere.
"I mean I do eat meat, good for you and everything, but that's not what I came here for, I already get my meat elsewhere"
"But my meat has keyboards!"
"Yeah that can't be your only selling point though, but hey as long as you're having fun! right?"
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1. Why does this bother you so much? For every comment like that, there is a bigger fraction of people who don't care about that "typical" thing and a MUCH bigger fraction of people who have zero critical sense about anything that Portnoy does (It's always "marvellous"). So, he will have much more applause than recriminations.
2. It is funny how the main and most valid criticism against Portnoy is considered absurd. Sounds like a "don't criticize Portnoy's drumming"
3. Over-saturation is the key, as you already noticed. He chose to bet on the quantity and boasts about it. OK. But can't we even say that he is repeating itself (4/5 times a year)?
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2. It is funny how the main and most valid criticism against Portnoy is considered absurd. Sounds like a "don't criticize Portnoy's drumming"
Saying that it "reeks of underhanded Portnoy bashing no matter how artfully constructed those kind of comments are" definitely gives off that impression, yes.
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Honestly, as many have said before, I only think this is a big deal because of how many releases he does.
Michael Romeo is one of the most repetitive guitarists I've ever heard. But he only releases an album every 3-4 years, so no one talks about it. If Michael Romeo released 4 albums per year, they'd be just as harsh about his bag of tricks as Portnoy.
And as I have said before too, I don't see anyone in DT really pushing any envelopes for the most part either. But that's one release every 2-3 years, so again not something we pay much attention to.
If Portnoy released an album every 2 years, I doubt we'd be talking too much about it.
I think you nailed and truthfully I've been guilty of accusation MP of the same thing but I was also listening to a lot of MP releases. It's unrealistic to expect every fill to be unique, fresh, and new. Additionally, given enough releases everyone will sound like they are pulling from their tried and true bag of tricks. I can make the same argument for JR. For all his technical prowess he always resorts to keyboard wankery. I remember years back he release solo piano performance album and every song started with him playing a beautiful melody followed by a flurry of notes. That's his style
If MP wants to keep playing the same fills on 12 releases a year, more power to him, I don't have to listen to it if it bothers me that much.
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No other drummer--including the legends, Peart, Bonham, Collins, etc.--has influenced me more than Portnoy. In my playing days anyways. With eager anticipation, I would await all his new albums, looking forward to hearing what he would come up with. Often I would hear something that would cause me to hit the rewind arrow over and over until I figured it out. Or, sometimes, it would take me weeks to dissect what he had done. Over the years a combination of things happened. 1) I became familiar with his style and it was easier for me to determine what he had done. 2) He said that the (partly pressure from his fans and also self-imposed) need to continually outdo what he had previously done, became burdensome and stressful. I think it may have been at this juncture that he decided to give it 100% but not try to kill himself creating new and unique approaches and fills. I will admit that I do miss the OMG reactions I used to get when I heard a new DT album for the first few times but he's just a human--a man like all of us who strives to give his all on each and every recorded project and even more so, in live performances. One of my favorite drummers is Martin Lopez. That dude always seems to do things that make me go--WHOA! However, he hasn't recorded a zillion albums like Portnoy. I love Mike for who he is and what he has given me over the years--hundreds if not thousands of hours of listening pleasure. He will always be one of my idols. I'm rambling. It's time to go!
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I don't go to the baker's and bitch about them not having meat, "Oh you're making bread again? lame".
Right?
You don't go in there and say, "As much as I learned to love your bread, How come you're not improving your bread?" :lol
"How's the bread?"
"Same."
"Good. I'm glad you like it."
"*sigh* I guess."
"What? You don't like it?"
"It's fine. It's just the same bread I always get."
"Oh. Well, here...try this bread."
"NO! I want the same bread but different!"
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I don't go to the baker's and bitch about them not having meat, "Oh you're making bread again? lame".
Right?
You don't go in there and say, "As much as I learned to love your bread, How come you're not improving your bread?" :lol
"How's the bread?"
"Same."
"Good. I'm glad you like it."
"*sigh* I guess."
"What? You don't like it?"
"It's fine. It's just the same bread I always get."
"Oh. Well, here...try this bread."
"NO! I want the same bread but different!"
This post is the money shot in this thread. :tup
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Yeah.
I don't get this Portnoy-super-crit. I understand feeling underwhelmed that musicians get samey after decades but, you know, bad luck.
But, just to contradict myself, the only drummer I can think of that frustrates me sometimes is Nicko McBrain. That mid-pace tom fill that ends on a snare hit has been fucking killing me for about 3 albums now!
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I feel like it can be fair to complain about an artist doing the same old thing but it depends on the situation. MP to me does not feel like a 'pushing boundaries' guy and I feel like he's been doing his thing pretty safely for a long time so I wouldn't listen to a new song of his and expect something out of the ordinary. But with that said I think people bring up a good point that he puts out like 5 albums a year with different projects so I guess it's over saturation.
With some bands like AC/DC or Iron Maiden who have built their careers on an easily identifiable sound, getting a 'typical' album would be what you expect and probably want. Then there's other bands who have made it their thing of trying different things or switching gears a lot and in those cases, getting a 'typical' album might be a let down. I feel like the argument could be fair as criticism but it also depends a bit on the situation.
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But, just to contradict myself, the only drummer I can think of that frustrates me sometimes is Nicko McBrain. That mid-pace tom fill that ends on a snare hit has been fucking killing me for about 3 albums now!
I think Nicko is one of the most "musical" drummers going, and I think he has actually pushed himself to be better during the Reunion Era.
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But, just to contradict myself, the only drummer I can think of that frustrates me sometimes is Nicko McBrain. That mid-pace tom fill that ends on a snare hit has been fucking killing me for about 3 albums now!
I wasn't aware of this fill until a drummer friend of mine pointed out to me that the fill is featured on pretty much every mid tempo Maiden song of the last twenty years. It's pretty hilarious when you think about it, but then again, it's such a signature fill that fits the beat and the vibe of the songs perfectly every time.
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But, just to contradict myself, the only drummer I can think of that frustrates me sometimes is Nicko McBrain. That mid-pace tom fill that ends on a snare hit has been fucking killing me for about 3 albums now!
I think Nicko is one of the most "musical" drummers going, and I think he has actually pushed himself to be better during the Reunion Era.
I think he's great and I hear that push on BNW and DOD but not since. Great groove, tho. I mean, he's is the backbone of the Maiden rhythm section, right?
But, just to contradict myself, the only drummer I can think of that frustrates me sometimes is Nicko McBrain. That mid-pace tom fill that ends on a snare hit has been fucking killing me for about 3 albums now!
I wasn't aware of this fill until a drummer friend of mine pointed out to me that the fill is featured on pretty much every mid tempo Maiden song of the last twenty years. It's pretty hilarious when you think about it, but then again, it's such a signature fill that fits the beat and the vibe of the songs perfectly every time.
I'm not a drummer but always listen hard to the drums. I've definitely had my, err, fill of this fill. ;)
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Reminds me of the time Portnoy tweeted something like
" Man Matt Sorum plays the same fill like 19 times in November Rain ! "
And Sorum replied something to the effect of :
" There's more to drumming than fancy fills and loads of cymbals "
and Portnoy backtracked
" I agree 1000% : ) : ) "
:lol
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And as I have said before too, I don't see anyone in DT really pushing any envelopes for the most part either. But that's one release every 2-3 years, so again not something we pay much attention to.
The drumming in S2n and Pale Blue Dot is not pushing the envelope?
And for the topic of a drummer not sounding that much different over two decades, here's a 2002 Mangini:
Stones by Sal Difusco (https://open.spotify.com/track/36FFzXAN0g3wTjuXik6Fw1?si=4iT_tT2kSW2xfTyESa8bMA)
And a 2018 Mangini:
Challenge Accepted by Into The Great Divide (https://open.spotify.com/track/2ALK1czhZ0NkdMkHlGd0BM?si=6jKoW44iSiePpydcTh8hEg)
If you're used to hearing MM, you would know it is him. But I would be hard pressed to say it's the same bag of tricks. And they are both work for hire gigs.
But here's the thing: I will put on pre-2010 Dream Theater or Neal Morse songs JUST TO HEAR THE DRUMMING. If I never hear either of those two songs above again, my life will still be fulfilling and complete.
I've written this before; it's not about "Mangini" or "Portnoy", it's the COMPARISON. It's just what you (general) like. I LOVE the way Mike Portnoy makes 44/7 time signatures sound like 4/4, and I'm not a fan of the "drumming as track and field event" vibe that I get from a lot of Mangini's work. If that's your bag, have at it, enjoy it and I hope it makes your day better (those are all very sincere statements, since that is what music does for me, and I truly do hope that we can all find whatever it is we're looking for in our musical choices). Portnoy is on my drumming Mt. Rushmore (with Peart, Bonham and Collins). Mangini is not.
"Drumming" isn't a sport, and it isn't a contest. I don't see the point in continuing that perpetual comparison.
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This post was spurred a bit by a constant comment I see on DTF regarding Mike Portnoy and his "typical" drumming or fills.
Obviously, opinion is welcome, but I don't understand comments like this. It reeks of underhanded Portnoy bashing, no matter how artfully constructed those kind of comments are. Have we gotten so spoiled by the abilities of guys like Portnoy and others (I've seen it thrown at a bunch of different musicians on here) that we take it for granted?
I know the community here is full of great musicians. Some of whom have had incredible success. But newsflash, most of this commentary regarding Portnoy and his "typical" drumming comes from folks that will never achieve a fraction of the success MP has had, nor even sniff his ability level. It reeks of jealousy and pettiness.
Yes, as fans, we are consumers, and we have a "right" to express our opinions. I'm not saying that. But every single time something comes up with Portnoy playing, you see the constant comments of "typical." Well, what do you expect? The guy has been a professional touring progressive musician for 35 years. His style is cemented, what he does is cemented. Let's take another drummer -- Brann Dailor of Mastodon. Dude receives tons of praise. But honestly, while I love Brann, his drumming is fully established, and you hear similar fills and such throughout everything he plays on. Let's go another. My favorite drummer, personally -- Morgan Rose of Sevendust. I'm an uber Alien Freak fan of his drumming. But on everything he appears on, Morgan sounds like Morgan.
So simply put, I don't know what people expect from Mike Portnoy. He's one of the most talented and respected drummers in the history of heavy rock and progressive music. Criticism is a part of the gig, for sure. But this whole strain of "typical" comments regarding his playing is ridiculous.
/soapbox
Word. Thank you.
So success should make you immune from criticism, or it should sanitize all discussion of their playing? You can't criticize a musician unless you can play at their level? Nah fam. I'm nowhere near Jordan Rudess's piano skills, but I can criticize his playing.
I happen to agree with you on this one point, but I think you both can be right. I think there IS an element of jealousy and pettiness to the criticisms, and while it may not be directly related to being a "great player", it is, I think, tied to this idea that we should be able to tell what our "favorite" artists are thinking at all times. Mike has put himself out there, and shared his feelings so often (and they sometimes contradict, like they do for ALL humans at some point) that some of us feel entitled to assume what he's thinking, what his goals are, what his motivations are... I disagree with that. I think he's entitled to his feelings whatever they are at whatever moment, just like the rest of us. And if they change over time? So be it. Ironically, he seems to be on the wrong side of the fence on both issues; his drumming SHOULD change and (apparently) hasn't, and his emotions HAVE changed and (apparently) shouldn't.
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I actually think Nicko has gotten better with age.
He carried that band on his shoulders on this last tour. Not that the rest of the band wasn't great (they were) but McBrain was rock fucking solid for two straight hours. I thought that was an incredible performance for a guy who is pushing 70 (he's 68). Contrast that with Peter Criss who I thought was abysmally washed up in 2004 (when he was ten years younger, at 58).
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I don't go to the baker's and bitch about them not having meat, "Oh you're making bread again? lame".
Right?
You don't go in there and say, "As much as I learned to love your bread, How come you're not improving your bread?" :lol
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Nice (to both of you). Well said.
'Course, now I'm hungry. ;)
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I actually think Nicko has gotten better with age.
He carried that band on his shoulders on this last tour. Not that the rest of the band wasn't great (they were) but McBrain was rock fucking solid for two straight hours. I thought that was an incredible performance for a guy who is pushing 70 (he's 68). Contrast that with Peter Criss who I thought was abysmally washed up in 2004 (when he was ten years younger, at 58).
Criss was washed up in 1984. :neverusethis:
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I actually think Nicko has gotten better with age.
He carried that band on his shoulders on this last tour. Not that the rest of the band wasn't great (they were) but McBrain was rock fucking solid for two straight hours. I thought that was an incredible performance for a guy who is pushing 70 (he's 68). Contrast that with Peter Criss who I thought was abysmally washed up in 2004 (when he was ten years younger, at 58).
Criss was washed up in 1984. :neverusethis:
You'll get no argument from me. He's by far my least favorite member, even including the subsequent non-original members.
LIST!!
Gene
Paul
Ace
Eric (Singer)
Vinnie
Eric (Carr)
Bruce Kulick
Tommy Thayer
Mark St. John
Peter Criss
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The Men In Black should erase all of our memories of Vinnie Vincent.
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Yeah.
I don't get this Portnoy-super-crit. I understand feeling underwhelmed that musicians get samey after decades but, you know, bad luck.
But, just to contradict myself, the only drummer I can think of that frustrates me sometimes is Nicko McBrain. That mid-pace tom fill that ends on a snare hit has been fucking killing me for about 3 albums now!
3 albums? He's been doing that shit since 1981, dude :rollin
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I was thinking about signature fills.
Live - Lars Ulrich used to do a tom fill that would ALWAYS end on two 8th notes on the snare.
But in the studio - I can't think of a fill that he uses over and over. Except maybe on the new album where he 8th note snare fills for a couple of bars. But that's about all i can think of right now.
He mostly plays for the song and each song might have a signature fill but maybe someone else can think of one fill that Lars does A LOT that isn't just in one song as a signature
for example THAT snare fill in Sad But True or the Rata Tata Boom in ONE.
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I was thinking about signature fills.
Live - Lars Ulrich used to do a tom fill that would ALWAYS end on two 8th notes on the snare.
But in the studio - I can't think of a fill that he uses over and over. Except maybe on the new album where he 8th note snare fills for a couple of bars. But that's about all i can think of right now.
He mostly plays for the song and each song might have a signature fill but maybe someone else can think of one fill that Lars does A LOT that isn't just in one song as a signature
for example THAT snare fill in Sad But True or the Rata Tata Boom in ONE.
Yea, Lars has a signature sound/style but definitely not a signature fill or anything. It's weird.
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For all the shit people give him - he doesn't really rely on a bag of tricks.
In the making of Death Magnetic and Hardwired videos - you can see him struggling to come up with parts which serve the song and aren't just
Rock Drum Fill # 34
For example - the snare triplets at the start of the song Hardwired and that Brann Dailor - esque tom roll he does in Moth Into Flame.
He still does try to mix it up in the studio to this day.
Not to turn this into the Lars Ulrich thread - but one of my fave criticisms of Lars is that " lol he just punches in drums in the studio ".
As if all albums aren't recorded like that. Do some people think you go in - play the whole album once as a band then go home ?
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Yeah.
I don't get this Portnoy-super-crit. I understand feeling underwhelmed that musicians get samey after decades but, you know, bad luck.
But, just to contradict myself, the only drummer I can think of that frustrates me sometimes is Nicko McBrain. That mid-pace tom fill that ends on a snare hit has been fucking killing me for about 3 albums now!
3 albums? He's been doing that shit since 1981, dude :rollin
:lol
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In the last 16-17 years of getting to know Dream Theater and Mike Portnoy's music, I've kind of grown accustomed to his play style, and could probably pick it out in a line-up if I needed to, but that doesn't mean his fills and grooves are boring for me. He is the kind of drummer who definitely tries his hardest to play to serve the music, and sometimes that means going back into his memory and using certain tools and tricks to lay down a groove or fill that sounds right to him.
He's got strong personality in the studio, but I don't think he'd argue to keep his takes if the other members of whatever band he's recording with weren't happy with what he did. In the end, he is a music fan as much as he is a musician, so I'm sure he wants to serve the song more than anyone else.
In the last decade or so, whenever a new album comes out with Mike on it, I listen to his drum parts carefully to pick out the parts I feel are NEW or DIFFERENT for him, grooves that I've never heard him do (for example, parts on Neal's Momentum album, or the Kaleidoscope album by Transatlantic), or crazy fills he's not done before (The Whirlwind is chock full of them), and it makes it like a fun little egg-hunt to find the stuff that makes that album unique, as far as Mike's playing goes.
I will agree, though, that because of the frequency at which Mike releases new music each year, if you're a fan of all of them, you might burn yourself out on listening to his drumming. Thankfully, I'm not a big fan of his strictly-metal stuff, and I've not really listened to SOA and TWD very much over the last few years, so most of my new-Mike-music intake is mostly from his work with Neal Morse, and if I'm not bored with Neal's over-use of certain musical ideas, I'm definitely not going to get bored with Mike's!
-Marc.
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Basically I just agree with whoever said " Bashing any Portnoy criticism is the same as criticising Portnoy himself ".
I don't agree that just because he's an ex member of Dream Theater he's untouchable. Same for Derek.
If we think he only plays the same 5 fills and hasn't done anything revolutionary music wise in the last 10 years - we should be able to say.
As I said before - I've listened to Winery Dogs, Flying Colours, Sons Of Apollo, Adrenaline Mob - and not one of those projects has excited me at all.
Last I heard he was in yet another new band - playing covers this time. Even though all his other projects live sets are padded out with covers.
None of this is outright bashing. I'm sure we'd all love MP to focus on one band - take the time (lulz) to craft an ALBUM and put out something truly GREAT.
Petrucci and Rudess reportedly took a year to write The Astonishing... What's the longest Portnoy has spent on an album since leaving DT ?
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Basically I just agree with whoever said " Bashing any Portnoy criticism is the same as criticising Portnoy himself ".
I don't agree that just because he's an ex member of Dream Theater he's untouchable. Same for Derek.
If we think he only plays the same 5 fills and hasn't done anything revolutionary music wise in the last 10 years - we should be able to say.
As I said before - I've listened to Winery Dogs, Flying Colours, Sons Of Apollo, Adrenaline Mob - and not one of those projects has excited me at all.
Last I heard he was in yet another new band - playing covers this time. Even though all his other projects live sets are padded out with covers.
None of this is outright bashing. I'm sure we'd all love MP to focus on one band - take the time (lulz) to craft an ALBUM and put out something truly GREAT.
Petrucci and Rudess reportedly took a year to write The Astonishing... What's the longest Portnoy has spent on an album since leaving DT ?
Three Days. Harharhar. Back to you mentioning TA: IIRC (and Scotty may correct me if I'm wrong) Jordan and JP started writing the music right after the Along For Ride Tour ended (so in November of 2014 and songwriting and recording ended in September of 2015). John began writing the story and the concept of the album right after DT12 has been released, so in September of 2013. You could say the total time it took from story writing to release was almost 2,5 years.
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SEND HIM AWAY !
* I'd also like to add that i've been close to putting his antics behind me several times - but then he goes and says something in the press - or that whole business with SOA and Derek
and i'm like nah.
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Back to you mentioning TA: IIRC (and Scotty may correct me if I'm wrong) Jordan and JP started writing the music right after the Along For Ride Tour ended (so in November of 2014 and songwriting and recording ended in September of 2015). John began writing the story and the concept of the album right after DT12 has been released, so in September of 2013. You could say the total time it took from story writing to release was almost 2,5 years.
I feel really bad for JP - spending all that time on the album - when fans were begging for another concept album. Giving them this huge epic concept album - taking all that time to write it...
...and then some fans act like it was their St Anger or something. If I was JP that would be the last time i'd ever consider another concept album.
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Back to you mentioning TA: IIRC (and Scotty may correct me if I'm wrong) Jordan and JP started writing the music right after the Along For Ride Tour ended (so in November of 2014 and songwriting and recording ended in September of 2015). John began writing the story and the concept of the album right after DT12 has been released, so in September of 2013. You could say the total time it took from story writing to release was almost 2,5 years.
I feel really bad for JP - spending all that time on the album - when fans were begging for another concept album. Giving them this huge epic concept album - taking all that time to write it...
...and then some fans act like it was their St Anger or something.
No one did that. A lot of us just found it kind of boring. That’s all.
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We must be reading different comments.
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We must be reading different comments.
Maybe. I also don’t pay much attention to dumb internet comments.
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I feel really bad for JP - spending all that time on the album - when fans were begging for another concept album. Giving them this huge epic concept album - taking all that time to write it...
...and then some fans act like it was their St Anger or something. If I was JP that would be the last time i'd ever consider another concept album.
Don't forget that he knew that TA was likely going to be a controversial addition to DT's catalog - he's said so himself in interviews. So if he knew that and still opted to go through with his pet project, then he is also willing to accept the consequences of taking that (mis)step.
That said, I wouldn't put it past him to consider doing another concept album down the road. After all, SFaM is one of DT's most popular albums. But I do think that he'll tread a little more carefully with regards to the musical direction each album takes from now on, as well as making sure that the lyrics and story to a potential concept album won't be so cheesy (you'll notice outside of TA, he hasn't written any lyrics that could be truly deemed cheesy since TCoT, which was panned by much of the fanbase lyrically).
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Back to you mentioning TA: IIRC (and Scotty may correct me if I'm wrong) Jordan and JP started writing the music right after the Along For Ride Tour ended (so in November of 2014 and songwriting and recording ended in September of 2015). John began writing the story and the concept of the album right after DT12 has been released, so in September of 2013. You could say the total time it took from story writing to release was almost 2,5 years.
I feel really bad for JP - spending all that time on the album - when fans were begging for another concept album. Giving them this huge epic concept album - taking all that time to write it...
...and then some fans act like it was their St Anger or something. If I was JP that would be the last time i'd ever consider another concept album.
I don't think TA is DT's St. Anger. (FII might be that. Or not. IMHO it is.) But I also really hope that there will be another concept album by DT. We all know they are able to do it well.
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I feel really bad for JP - spending all that time on the album - when fans were begging for another concept album. Giving them this huge epic concept album - taking all that time to write it...
...and then some fans act like it was their St Anger or something. If I was JP that would be the last time i'd ever consider another concept album.
Don't forget that he knew that TA was likely going to be a controversial addition to DT's catalog - he's said so himself in interviews. So if he knew that and still opted to go through with his pet project, then he is also willing to accept the consequences of taking that (mis)step.
That said, I wouldn't put it past him to consider doing another concept album down the road. After all, SFaM is one of DT's most popular albums. But I do think that he'll tread a little more carefully with regards to the musical direction each album takes from now on, as well as making sure that the lyrics and story to a potential concept album won't be so cheesy (you'll notice outside of TA, he hasn't written any lyrics that could be truly deemed cheesy since TCoT, which was panned by much of the fanbase lyrically).
although I always thought (and I still think to this day) that James delivered these lyrics really rather well. (in that he "draws you in" to them as it were)
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Funny that you consider Falling Into Infinity to be their St. Anger when FII is largely considered their best album sonically.
I'd say that When Dream And Day Unite is closer to being their weakest album but it was their debut so it's forgiveable.
DT12 also has a horrific snare sound meanwhile...
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I think a lot of bands don't really have a St. Anger. That album is panned so universally, and has so much that makes it legitimately strange, like the snare sound (and really the overall production), that it doesn't compare with anything in the discographies of a lot of bands.
However, it is true that there is a lot of wildly exaggerated criticism of TA in the prog metal world more broadly (less so on this forum, where people tend to state their opinions in more measured and respectful terms).
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It’s hilarious that MP would receive this criticism when far more famous drummers like Watts, Paice, McBrain, Ulrich, Travis etc have been doing the exact same things every record for up to 50 years or more.
I don't know about those other guys but Ulrich's drumming is always shit on.
Portnoy is a Prog guy so it's weird to compare criticisms of him to a drummer like Watts.
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Basically I just agree with whoever said " Bashing any Portnoy criticism is the same as criticising Portnoy himself ".
I don't agree that just because he's an ex member of Dream Theater he's untouchable. Same for Derek.
If we think he only plays the same 5 fills and hasn't done anything revolutionary music wise in the last 10 years - we should be able to say.
As I said before - I've listened to Winery Dogs, Flying Colours, Sons Of Apollo, Adrenaline Mob - and not one of those projects has excited me at all.
Last I heard he was in yet another new band - playing covers this time. Even though all his other projects live sets are padded out with covers.
None of this is outright bashing. I'm sure we'd all love MP to focus on one band - take the time (lulz) to craft an ALBUM and put out something truly GREAT.
Petrucci and Rudess reportedly took a year to write The Astonishing... What's the longest Portnoy has spent on an album since leaving DT ?
I think there are a fair number of assumptions in there that don't hold water, though. Respectfully. If we list the albums that are truly classic and yet were done in a matter of days, we'd be here all day. "Time" does not equal "great record". I don't know that TA is DT's "St. Anger" (not sure what that means) but I do know that TA is literally the LAST record in the catalogue that I go to when I want to hear Dream Theater. If you want to compare it to Metallica, it's their Lulu. Interesting side bar, but not much more.
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Lulu is a Lou Reed album though not Metallica. They just happen to be the backing band.
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Petrucci and Rudess reportedly took a year to write The Astonishing... What's the longest Portnoy has spent on an album since leaving DT ?
I dont keep up with most of his stuff but SoA's MMXX was basically written off and on over the course of a year (or more). I would rather people write in person, and I think they did some stuff during soundcheck and whatever, but they continuously would write remotely and say what you will but I think MMXX was a huge improvement.
So yeah, I think taking your time really helps. I *liked* the first SoA and didn't have high hopes for the second but I think it just proves that not bashing out a handful of songs in a weeks time actually helps the final product.
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I feel like the main thing Portnoy is missing now is a great songwriter. He's always been good at being an 'arranger,' seeing how bits of songs and motifs go together, like he did on Transatlantic's The Whirlwind and in Dream Theater, so when he was working with John and Jordan, or with Neal and Roine and Pete, great stuff happens. I don't think any of his other bands have someone like that.
And sure, he's not pushing boundaries or coming up with ridiculous drum parts like he did back in the days of Metropolis, and it would be cool to hear him do that again, but he's still a really talented drummer with an incredibly engaging style and if he were using his 'bag of tricks' in bands and on songs that were really good, I don't think there would be as many complaints. I mean, there'd always be some, because this is the internet, but I think the real issue people have with his output these days is that the music his drumming is supporting isn't that good.
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Yes. As a drummer is is definitely a great arranger. I remember Neil Peart saying in an interview that he learned all he could on drums on the Presto tour. He learned later was it was not true and admited so.