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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: npiazza91 on June 10, 2020, 08:59:08 PM
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Been listening to their middle albums a lot and I realized something. After Scenes From a Memory, the band went in a much more “metal” direction. Every album from 6-10 is a heavy metal album with the exception of maybe Octavarium. On albums 1-5 the band had a much more...prog sound. The prog took precedence over the metal aspect. Don’t get me wrong, albums 6-10 are still very proggy, but they never QUITE went into full on heavy metal mode until Six Degrees. Especially on TOT, SC and BCASL you can see the metal overtaking the prog sound, a lot of the “magic” that is heard on albums like Awake and SFAM...is kinda lost. They lost a lot of that atmosphere. It makes even more sense when you listen to ADTOE and you’re like “damn...that’s the sound that’s been missing”. Even DT12 was a very atmospheric album, even if the quality of some the songs weren’t really up to par.
You can just tell that Portnoy was kinda taking over the band’s sound in a lot of ways. Songs like ANTR, HTF, CM, TDEN, etc.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the 12 Step Suite, and I love a lot of the songs on albums 6-10, but by the time SC and BCASL came out, you can really hear a band struggling to find its identity. Then when you listen to ADTOE the band sounds right at home, more focused, they’re able to breathe a lot more, etc. It’s like when a 16 year old kid’s parents go away and he immediately invites all his friends over to drink and stuff...the band just feels like a weight has been lifted off them. I feel like Portnoy was holding them back tbh. You might disagree and that’s fine. But while I do think Portnoy was the better drummer, I’m happy Mangini is in the band now. DOT is slowly creeping up to becoming one of my favorite DT albums, and ADTOE is my #2 album by them. If they had kept going in the BCASL direction, we wouldn’t have gotten these great albums. It’s really hard to explain fully, but there was not a certain...magic in the first five albums that kinda dropped at some point after that, and only resurfaced with ADTOE. It was like this epic, emotional, almost symphonic feel to their music that got drowned out.
Btw, I still think Six Degrees and TOT are fantastic albums, but it doesn’t change my point that the band kinda started losing their magic after SFAM. They had a certain sound that was lost in albums 6-10. Maybe you know what I mean.
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They didn't "choose to let him go." He chose to leave. It might be more accurate to present it as why they "chose to not cave to his request for a break."
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He was not let go; he chose to leave.
And I think the split has been good for both parties. DT received a much-needed jolt, and Portnoy, while having some misfires, has made some of the best music of his career since leaving DT (with Flying Colors and Neal Morse/Neal Morse Band). Everyone has won, especially the fans.
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This is all in the realm of speculation, we don't know any of that for sure. Of course they won't, but the band could easily come out and deny all of that. It really sounds as if Portnoy assumed total control over DT and the other guys had almost no say, which I think it is not true.
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Well, wasn't Mike the first to admit and actually write that he had the most perseverance and that, while he was not a dictator in the sense of "This is how to be done because I say so, end of the story", he would actually wore the other guys down with his arguments until he would have his way?
Well, the break from their activities was the one situation in which he didn't manage to have the other guys finally agreeing and going along with him.
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Watch MP's latest YouTube video going through his vinyl collection, he is on the 'Ds' and talks about this while going through the DT albums;
During the 6DoIT tour, they had covered Number of the Beast and Master of Puppets, which very much influenced the heaviness of Tot, then they toured with Yes, which influenced the proginess of 8V.
It's a good watch.
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I think the desire to emulate other bands reached a peak during this run of albums and it made everything sound a little inauthentic. I'm guessing most of that was from MP's insistence. With him gone, I think the band just went back to writing instinctually and ultimately started sounding like Dream Theater again.
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Guys MP and JP were the main producers and the leaders of the band ..it's not like everything wrong up until then was MP doing without getting any approval from anyone..For better or worse it is what it is..But the band has changed, they've clearly stated that many times, the main product of what DT is today is their latest album.
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This is all in the realm of speculation, we don't know any of that for sure.
Sorry, but MP choosing to leave DT is not in the realm of speculation at all. It's right there in the first line of his announcement.
After 25 years, I have decided to leave Dream Theater....the band I founded, led and truly loved for a quarter of a century.
So he did choose to leave.
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This is all in the realm of speculation, we don't know any of that for sure.
Sorry, but MP choosing to leave DT is not in the realm of speculation at all. It's right there in the first line of his announcement.
I think that is a fact and obviously I was not refering to that. ::)
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I disagree about MP taking the band in a "metal" direction and downplaying the prog. That just doesn't fit. Petrucci and Myung are and have always been HUGE metal guys. Are you forgetting stories like the two of them breaking open MOP as soon as it hit the shelves, and being blown away by it? Or Myung using a sped-up NOTB as a regular practice routine? Or the fact that JP writes the majority of the riffs? MP was never the only metal guy in the band. Even leaving aside the fact that there has been PLENTY of metal on the albums since MP left, there's also the fact that JP has pushed to have songs like TDEN in several of their sets because he loves playing those songs.
I don't disagree that there was a change in the band's sound, and that they have indeed sounded "fresher" (for lack of a better term). But "they had gotten too metal and are now returning to form" isn't really an accurate description.
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I have nothing constructive to add except to say that I've always found the phrase "let someone go" interesting. Today, it's a euphemism for firing someone. "Bob, I'm afraid I'm going to have to let you go."
But consider:
Mike chose to leave.
They let him (as opposed to begging him to stay).
Therefore, they let him go.
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Thank goodness we're still getting threads like this nearly 10 years after the fact!
Might get hate for this, but I can see why they chose to let Portnoy go
First of all, you should get your facts straight: "They" didn't "chose [sic] to let Portnoy go." Mike Portnoy quit Dream Theater of his own free will. It wasn't even a situation where he quit in order to avoid being fired.
Been listening to their middle albums a lot and I realized something. After Scenes From a Memory, the band went in a much more “metal” direction. Every album from 6-10 is a heavy metal album with the exception of maybe Octavarium.
Maybe I'm being too nit picky, but Dream Theater is a progressive metal band. EVERY album the band has been released has been a "metal album." Sure...some have been heavier than others, but they've all been metal albums.
they never QUITE went into full on heavy metal mode until Six Degrees.
You might want to check out Awake. It's a pretty good album.
You can just tell that Portnoy was kinda taking over the band’s sound in a lot of ways. Songs like ANTR, HTF, CM, TDEN, etc.
At least two of those songs are primarily attributable to Petrucci.
I'm not going to go over all of the other things you wrote point by point, but I'll close with two things: First, while MP might have been the most "metal" guy in DT, he was arguably also the most "prog" guy. Second, it should be obvious that nothing that happened from ADTOE to the present influenced either MP's decision to leave DT or DT's decision not to let him back in the band when he asked. You can make all the points you want about Mangini era DT versus late Portnoy era DT, but please at least get your facts right.
Well, wasn't Mike the first to admit and actually write that he had the most perseverance and that, while he was not a dictator in the sense of "This is how to be done because I say so, end of the story", he would actually wore the other guys down with his arguments until he would have his way?
That's a VERY old comment that goes back to the Kevin Moore era.
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MP left the band, they had drummer auditions and he then tried to get back in the band but was rebuffed. Is that correct?
The way I see it (pure speculation) once the original shock wore off, the rest of the band looked at this as an opportunity to have a more stable bandmate. We know they had clashed for years with MP and his abrasive personality.
And while I don't agree with the original poster's premise, I really do enjoy the MM era as it is definitely progressive metal with the main difference being that the songs are far more melodic. MP used to say that the music has to have "balls" so I felt in some songs he kind of forced heavier parts into the song which didn't necessarily make the song better. Please don't take this as a dis on MP. I love his work with DT and other projects.
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I 100% agree with your assessment of the band's sound, they are much more balanced since MP left. No more stuff like ANTR or TDEN which are not DT's strength. Incorporating heavy riffs into a proggy, melodic framework like Beneath the Veil suits them much better. As for your other statement regarding the particulars of MP's departure, others have already corrected you.
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MP left the band, they had drummer auditions and he then tried to get back in the band but was rebuffed. Is that correct?
I don't recall the exact timing of things (and don't feel like looking it up), but this is basically correct. MP left. By the time he asked to come back, the band had already committed to MM.
The way I see it (pure speculation) once the original shock wore off, the rest of the band looked at this as an opportunity to have a more stable bandmate. We know they had clashed for years with MP and his abrasive personality.
I'm not sure I agree with all that (and especially not the second sentence), but I would agree that the remaining members of DT embraced the opportunity to work in a different way and are not unhappy with how things turned out.
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Not to add more fire to this, but... this is Jordan speaking about the writing process of ADTOE back in 2011:
With Mike Portnoy leaving, John became, like, free. The fact that Mike Portnoy left did not make us suffer. John Petrucci and I, we are the core composers of DREAM THEATER, and it has been that way since I joined the group. So, even though Mike was extremely talented, there were certain limitations of what he could do in terms of the production. So when we moved on, we looked at each other and said, "We can produce this album. We do not need somebody else telling us what is good or not," and we enjoyed that challenge. The biggest difference in writing music to this album was that we decided to write this music choosing what is best for us without Mike Portnoy being the DREAM THEATER police telling us "yes" or "no." I think that it took us a little more time to craft our music before putting our stamp of approval on it.
Source: https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/rudess-new-cd-was-written-without-portnoy-being-dream-theater-police-telling-us-yes-or-no/
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Not to add more fire to this, but... this is Jordan speaking about the writing process of ADTOE back in 2011:
With Mike Portnoy leaving, John became, like, free. The fact that Mike Portnoy left did not make us suffer. John Petrucci and I, we are the core composers of DREAM THEATER, and it has been that way since I joined the group. So, even though Mike was extremely talented, there were certain limitations of what he could do in terms of the production. So when we moved on, we looked at each other and said, "We can produce this album. We do not need somebody else telling us what is good or not," and we enjoyed that challenge. The biggest difference in writing music to this album was that we decided to write this music choosing what is best for us without Mike Portnoy being the DREAM THEATER police telling us "yes" or "no." I think that it took us a little more time to craft our music before putting our stamp of approval on it.
Source: https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/rudess-new-cd-was-written-without-portnoy-being-dream-theater-police-telling-us-yes-or-no/
See - this is exactly what I was talking about. This reminds me of the ToT video where MP is going around videoing JR practicing the end of ITNOG and JR was extending the scale out when MP said too much and JR immediately shortened the ending. Now post MP and on certain songs, I can hear JR extending the end of songs to his liking almost as if saying, 'this is my move' without someone in his ear saying 'too much'.
I could give other examples of why I think they took this opportunity to move forward but I beg the question, if MM left DT, would DT welcome back MP?
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I could give other examples of why I think they took this opportunity to move forward but I beg the question, if MM left DT, would DT welcome back MP?
Which was recently discussed over several pages in another thread.
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I disagree about MP taking the band in a "metal" direction and downplaying the prog. That just doesn't fit. Petrucci and Myung are and have always been HUGE metal guys. Are you forgetting stories like the two of them breaking open MOP as soon as it hit the shelves, and being blown away by it? Or Myung using a sped-up NOTB as a regular practice routine? Or the fact that JP writes the majority of the riffs? MP was never the only metal guy in the band. Even leaving aside the fact that there has been PLENTY of metal on the albums since MP left, there's also the fact that JP has pushed to have songs like TDEN in several of their sets because he loves playing those songs.
I don't disagree that there was a change in the band's sound, and that they have indeed sounded "fresher" (for lack of a better term). But "they had gotten too metal and are now returning to form" isn't really an accurate description.
Exactly.
After Scenes, we still had 6D's and 8V, about as non metal as you can get in their discog.
I found SC fairly varied, and BC&SL was heavy, but the only purposely heavy album was Train Of Thought.
Not for nothing but I consider The Enemy Inside one of their all time heaviest songs. Bridges In The Sky as well.
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I agree with the premise of the original post. I don’t know if it’s all Portnoy’s fault though.
Everything after SDOIT was indeed “too metal” imo and that includes ADTOE. The self titled finally sounded like the DT I love with the exception of “the enemy inside” which was basically “here you go metal fans, we will throw you this one bone”.
The Astonishing and D/T have been true returns to form.
One of the huge differences has been the vocal production and delivery of JL.
Correct me if I’m wrong but didn’t MP have some choice words about Labrie’s over the top vocal style and wanted him to sound more modern and metal? It’s extremely noticeable from TOT through ADTOE.
Self titled you can notice a stark contrast in Labrie’s delivery and production. Also listen to Labrie on The Glass Prison vs ITNOG and As I Am. TGP is insanely heavy but Labrie sounds like Labrie. On ITNOG Labrie sounds like Dickinson and on As I Am he sounds like Hetfield.
IMO the magical era was Wdadu through SDOIT. The band definitely went too modern and metal sounding through ADTOE.
Self titled through D/T sound like an aging band returning to form. They won’t recapture SFAM magic but they are making similar sounding music again.
Why do people call Octavarium a proggy album? Awake is certainty heavy but it’s moodiness and atmospheric quality and production is what makes it proggy sounding. I don’t see that in octavarium at all. There are metal songs that are epic but Metallica did that also and didn’t get labeled prog.
Root of all evil - this is metal, not prog
Answer lies within- nothing proggy about this
These walls- nothing proggy about this
I walk beside you - u2 not prog
Panic attack- this is metal, not prog
Never enough - sort of proggy I guess but mostly just muse influence
Sacrificed sons- proggy
Octavarium - proggy
I think people tend to lump “heavy” with “metal” and “light” with “prog” which I think is very misleading.
I’m a prog guy and LOVE heavy stuff. AT Wits End is a perfect example of this. The enemy inside is heavy but I really don’t like it.
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I could give other examples of why I think they took this opportunity to move forward but I beg the question, if MM left DT, would DT welcome back MP?
Please no! For all the reasons mentioned in many many posts above.
And for those saying they've always had the metal elements in there...that's absolutely true, but you have to admit that there is a lot of darkness in SC and BC&SL, an element that was toned down considerably in ADTOE, and in every album since. Heck, they've even started using C major, a tonal centre (arguably the brightest of such) that, among their pre-MM work, I could only find in a section of Only A Matter of Time.
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:police:
Portnoy was actually my fave member of the band until he left and turned into Mr. Passive Aggressive.
His antics on Social Media didn't help either.
Each time I thought about giving him another chance - he'd go and say something anti - DT again.
I would have been into Sons Of Apollo if he and Derek weren't a couple of complete childish idiots about it.
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I agree with the premise of the original post. I don’t know if it’s all Portnoy’s fault though.
Everything after SDOIT was indeed “too metal” imo and that includes ADTOE. The self titled finally sounded like the DT I love with the exception of “the enemy inside” which was basically “here you go metal fans, we will throw you this one bone”.
I personally feel that DT's song-writing has been way less interesting on the albums after ADTOE. It's become way more of 'heavy riff' followed by 'chorus containing a vocal melody that has been added later' song after song. Funny that you mention The Enemy Inside, because that's my favourite DT song they've done since Octavarium, precisely because it doesn't really sound too much like the other tracks. As far as I'm concerned, despite TEI, their self-titled is their weakest studio output, because it's so bland and meaningless.
The Astonishing and D/T have been true returns to form.
Completely disagree with this. While I enjoy TA for what it is, you can hardly call this a 'return to form', because it's so different from their other stuff. Distance over Time was a step in the right direction, but it feels too much like the band is just churning out some songs that are ultimately rehashed things they have already before. They explore no new territory at all (and this has been a tendency within the band over the course of multiple albums). Not saying it's bad, but for me 'return to form' would mean exciting, forward-thinking music that's not trying to be something it's not - see the run from I&W-TOT. I feel like ADTOE / s/t / D/T are absolutely not trying to be 'progressive' at all, but rather restating the same thing the band has done in the past.
I think people tend to lump “heavy” with “metal” and “light” with “prog” which I think is very misleading.
Definitely. 'Progressive' music can definitely be 'heavy'.
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The Astonishing was definitely going for something new, exciting, and fresh.....
I’m listening to Octavarium right now and one thing I noticed is that outside of the title track they never bring in a new vocal melody after the first verse and chorus. Sure they take you on wild instrumental rides but always come back to the same established vocal melody. That’s why I never understood why people consider it proggy. Not every classic era 90’s DT song did this but so many of them did. It’s why I consider songs like S2N and AWE a return to form.
I agree that the period of innovation and magic was I&W through TOT but I feel like D/T is the closest to sounding like those albums since That era imo and they have gotten closer and closer to that since portnoys influence was totally gone.... I love portnoy and he’s a huge reason I fell in love with the band but it was definitely a good move for both parties it would seem. Perhaps it’s just coincidence but for me I couldn’t really identify with any of the albums from octavarium through ADTOE. I still listen to them and enjoy them, there is great stuff but they just don’t quit fit my musical taste. The constant need for “metal” seemed to end with “the enemy inside”. I don’t think they’ve made a song like that since. Labrie is singing like a prog rock singer again and not Hetfield. I’m very happy with where the band is at.
To me the most glaring distinction of their music comes in the form of two songs:
Nightmare to remember: the song in general is modern sounding DT, the beautiful agony part is classic sounding DT.
Lost not forgotten: the song in general sounds like modern DT, the “greatest story every told” part sounds like classic DT.
Just my opinion but I always felt those parts represented the magic they left behind after SDOIT.
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Why do people call Octavarium a proggy album?
For one, the title track helps, as it is their one true long epic that is proggy and not metal at all, and then the album is very thematic in nature with the octave thing, and thematic and/or concept albums usually get thrown into the prog pile, fair or not.
But it's funny because Train of Thought was just as proggy overall as Octavarium, if not more, but ToT was so chaotic and heavy that it was easy to label it "more metal," while calling its successor "more proggy."
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:police:
Portnoy was actually my fave member of the band until he left and turned into Mr. Passive Aggressive.
His antics on Social Media didn't help either.
Each time I thought about giving him another chance - he'd go and say something anti - DT again.
I would have been into Sons Of Apollo if he and Derek weren't a couple of complete childish idiots about it.
That's just, like, my opinion also, man.
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:corn
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I, for one, think the "metal vs prog in DT" debate is really not where it's at. It's in the little things: MP started to have his way on things that were not possibly the best things for the band in my opinion. For example, his "lead vocals" that never, ever worked for me. Not in the slightest. That felt more of a projection of his personality, his desire to be heard as opposed to "the balls in DT music in contrast to James' cleaner voice" argument he always put out. James can run circles around MP vocally in every sense of the word because he *is* a vocalist a MP is not. For example, I really dig the JLB arrangement they did for the heavy section in ANTR they played on the last tour. JLB is clearly not in his best right now, but he did a pretty great job and I'll take that every time over MP's half-assed tough guy/growly vocals. I mean no disrespect, but that's the only word that comes to mind. So, when the moment came MP wanted to stop DT for an indefinite hiatus and he got a big and round "no" for an answer, he was shocked. For the first time, he lost control of the band and that must not have been something easy to process and deal for him.
Both parties really benefited from the separation, but I cannot help but feel that MP cannot fill that void left by DT and with fair reason. He loves patting himself in the back and saying like "I'm in 15 bands right now and I'm releasing 10 albums this year, so life is good in MP land!", which is really something but at the same time feels like a constant "see? I'm good without DT!" when that shadow will always linger and is clearly there.
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I, for one, think the "metal vs prog in DT" debate is really not where it's at. It's in the little things: MP started to have his way on things that were not possibly the best things for the band in my opinion. For example, his "lead vocals" that never, ever worked for me. Not in the slightest. That felt more of a projection of his personality, his desire to be heard as opposed to "the balls in DT music in contrast to James' cleaner voice" argument he always put out. James can run circles around MP vocally in every sense of the word because he *is* a vocalist a MP is not. For example, I really dig the JLB arrangement they did for the heavy section in ANTR they played on the last tour. JLB is clearly not in his best right now, but he did a pretty great job and I'll take that every time over MP's half-assed tough guy/growly vocals. I mean no disrespect, but that's the only word that comes to mind. So, when the moment came MP wanted to stop DT for an indefinite hiatus and he got a big and round "no" for an answer, he was shocked. For the first time, he lost control of the band and that must not have been something easy to process and deal for him.
Both parties really benefited from the separation, but I cannot help but feel that MP cannot fill that void left by DT and with fair reason. He loves patting himself in the back and saying like "I'm in 15 bands right now and I'm releasing 10 albums this year, so life is good in MP land!", which is really something but at the same time feels like a constant "see? I'm good without DT!" when that shadow will always linger and is clearly there.
I mostly agree with this. :tup :tup
Portnoy has his moments as a singer given his limits as a vocalist (there are songs by NMB and Flying Colors both where he sings some lead that I like), but the problem in his DT days, like you said, is that he often tried to do too much because he wanted to be heard. Take Home on Scenes Live from NY. The harmonies during the first verse are ones where JLB is the lead and Portnoy (and Petrucci, I think) should be singing along to fill out the sound, but he is belting it out like he is trying to be louder than James, and then he does that thing at the end of the second line where he holds it an extra second or two after James had stopped, which sounds terrible. And don't even get me started on that yelpy thing he did at the end of the Schmedley Wilcox medley they did on the SC tour. The fact that he thought that was a good idea, and that either no one told it wasn't or that he ignored them and did it anyway, was a good indicator that he was drunk with too much power at that point.
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We got Winery Dogs out of it, which I would listen to over DT any day of the week, so I'm good with him having left.
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Him leaving DT was the best thing he ever did. Good for DT, good for him.
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I, for one, think the "metal vs prog in DT" debate is really not where it's at. It's in the little things: MP started to have his way on things that were not possibly the best things for the band in my opinion. For example, his "lead vocals" that never, ever worked for me. Not in the slightest. That felt more of a projection of his personality, his desire to be heard as opposed to "the balls in DT music in contrast to James' cleaner voice" argument he always put out. James can run circles around MP vocally in every sense of the word because he *is* a vocalist a MP is not. For example, I really dig the JLB arrangement they did for the heavy section in ANTR they played on the last tour. JLB is clearly not in his best right now, but he did a pretty great job and I'll take that every time over MP's half-assed tough guy/growly vocals. I mean no disrespect, but that's the only word that comes to mind. So, when the moment came MP wanted to stop DT for an indefinite hiatus and he got a big and round "no" for an answer, he was shocked. For the first time, he lost control of the band and that must not have been something easy to process and deal for him.
Both parties really benefited from the separation, but I cannot help but feel that MP cannot fill that void left by DT and with fair reason. He loves patting himself in the back and saying like "I'm in 15 bands right now and I'm releasing 10 albums this year, so life is good in MP land!", which is really something but at the same time feels like a constant "see? I'm good without DT!" when that shadow will always linger and is clearly there.
I mostly agree with this. :tup :tup
Portnoy has his moments as a singer given his limits as a vocalist (there are songs by NMB and Flying Colors both where he sings some lead that I like), but the problem in his DT days, like you said, is that he often tried to do too much because he wanted to be heard. Take Home on Scenes Live from NY. The harmonies during the first verse are ones where JLB is the lead and Portnoy (and Petrucci, I think) should be singing along to fill out the sound, but he is belting it out like he is trying to be louder than James, and then he does that thing at the end of the second line where he holds it an extra second or two after James had stopped, which sounds terrible. And don't even get me started on that yelpy thing he did at the end of the Schmedley Wilcox medley they did on the SC tour. The fact that he thought that was a good idea, and that either no one told it wasn't or that he ignored them and did it anyway, was a good indicator that he was drunk with too much power at that point.
Ah, the irony :P :lol
Seriously, I think both of you are right about this. He made a really big deal about him being the "frontman" from behind the kit, and that started to mess with the music and live performances after a while (you already cited great examples). Because, as you said, his singing works great in some contexts, but that's when he's trying to be a team player and not the frontman/main singer of the band at that moment.
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When we were all younger and in bands, there was always "that guy" that did all of the legwork. MP was that guy, and even as DT became popular, MP still treated it as his boyhood little band. Honestly, I find that charming, and his enthusiasm is one of the things I miss in current DT.
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Anyone else hear bootlegs of them doing Fatal Tragedy with him singing “you can eat ass and balls” in the chorus? That was....interesting.
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Anyone else hear bootlegs of them doing Fatal Tragedy with him singing “you can eat ass and balls” in the chorus? That was....interesting.
I don't miss this kind of shit. And his WAAAAAHOOOOOO in Razors Edge on whatever DVD that was.
Chaos In Motion ?
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When Portnoy left, I was genuinely sad about it. My life was already changing quite a bit (sophomore year in college, you know?), and suddenly one of my rocks - Dream Theater - was changing too. However, in hindsight, I think that it was perfect timing for the band and a blessing in disguise. SC and BC&SL aren't bad records by any means, but I personally feel as though they are missing something. That something largely came back once Mangini came on board, IMO.
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Seriously, I think both of you are right about this. He made a really big deal about him being the "frontman" from behind the kit, and that started to mess with the music and live performances after a while (you already cited great examples). Because, as you said, his singing works great in some contexts, but that's when he's trying to be a team player and not the frontman/main singer of the band at that moment.
Agreed. I have seen the Neal Morse Band four times, where Portnoy does a lot of harmonies, and not once in those four shows did I ever think he was overdoing it with the singing. But I have said that before, it is like he takes on a different personality when he is around Neal Morse (a much more likable one).
When we were all younger and in bands, there was always "that guy" that did all of the legwork. MP was that guy, and even as DT became popular, MP still treated it as his boyhood little band. Honestly, I find that charming, and his enthusiasm is one of the things I miss in current DT.
I can understand that. Even though his social media presence can be irritating when he is venting about something, whenever there were announcements about upcoming shows or albums or whatever, he knew just the right buttons to push to get the fans all worked up and excited about whatever was coming, whether it was a new album, a special show or a cool social media event. That really isn't there anymore. Take the other day when the band did a Twitter listening party for Scenes, and it wasn't even talked about here (unless it was a chat thread that I didn't see, as opposed to a dedicated thread). If he was still in the band, he would have talked that up like crazy and it would have resulted in major chatter on the forum about it. Like I said earlier, I don't miss his overeager attempts to sing live or his dominating presence he had over the band the last years he was in it, but over time, the lack of little things like the above have become more noticeable, which is odd since the first few years after his departure felt really fun to be a fan of the band again. That feeling isn't really there for me anymore, which is ironic since I think their last two albums are two of their best three of the 21st century.
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When Portnoy left, I was genuinely sad about it. My life was already changing quite a bit (sophomore year in college, you know?), and suddenly one of my rocks - Dream Theater - was changing too. However, in hindsight, I think that it was perfect timing for the band and a blessing in disguise. SC and BC&SL aren't bad records by any means, but I personally feel as though they are missing something. That something largely came back once Mangini came on board, IMO.
I agree with this.
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When Portnoy left, I was genuinely sad about it. My life was already changing quite a bit (sophomore year in college, you know?), and suddenly one of my rocks - Dream Theater - was changing too. However, in hindsight, I think that it was perfect timing for the band and a blessing in disguise. SC and BC&SL aren't bad records by any means, but I personally feel as though they are missing something. That something largely came back once Mangini came on board, IMO.
It's funny because I have long maintained that DT sounded like a band that got a major energy jolt when Portnoy left and Mangini joined, but I gave B&SL and ADTOE full listens this past week and was a) surprised how good BC&SL sounded (A Rite of Passage and a lot of the lyrics aside), and b) stunned at how bored I was listening to most of ADTOE (which I think in large part is due to the mediocre mix). Funny how things age for ya...
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I’ve been listening to DT since SFAM. SDOIT was my my first release day listen. And I will say that Black Clouds was the first album where I was disappointed on first listen. It never really got better. And it’s really the only one I’ve had that experience with. The Astonishing took a while to get through and comprehend it all. But that’s mostly because it was a time in my life when I couldn’t listen to an album for three straight hours. And I will say that hearing ADTOE when it was released, was one of the happiest moments in all my years of DT fandom.
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Wait just a minute...
Mike Portnoy left Dream Theater?
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How do you guys feel about Part II of his vinyl collection tour? I'm very disappointed.
He has all the DT releases (multiple versions) with him in the band but none of them afterwards. Considering what a fan of music he is and all of the great and legendary artists he has in his huge collection it's like he no longer considers DT among the upper echelon. I would think/hope that at the very least he'd collect them out of respect for his former and current friends even if he doesn't feel the music belongs in his collection.
It's so frustrating to *hear* about how well he says he's doing and how he's still friends with JP/JR, but then I *see* stuff like this (actions speak louder than words and all that) and I just don't get it. It's all of the little (and sometimes big) passive-aggressive things he does to undermine whatever good things he tries to make us believe he's happy and "over it" tell me he still regrets the situation.
I know that if *I* were JP and/or JR I'd have serious issues with how he's handled everything and would talk to him about it (for all we know, they have talked to him) but whatever happened I guess everyone is OK with it but the fans, at least me anyway, are always getting mixed signals.
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@Petfish - that really doesn't bother me. He can be friends with some of the members of DT and still have no desire to listen to their albums without him or add them to his collection. Imo, nothing wrong with that. He could be perfectly happy, or mostly happy, with where he's at now, and still feel weird about DT without him.
As long as he's not badmouthing them or making snarky comments, I think that's enough.
For the rest of the conversation:
When Portnoy left, I was genuinely sad about it. My life was already changing quite a bit (sophomore year in college, you know?), and suddenly one of my rocks - Dream Theater - was changing too. However, in hindsight, I think that it was perfect timing for the band and a blessing in disguise. SC and BC&SL aren't bad records by any means, but I personally feel as though they are missing something. That something largely came back once Mangini came on board, IMO.
I pretty much agree with this, and I love all 4 MM albums.
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I guess this could have been answered even faster in the MP dedicated topic :D
My personnal feelings about it :
-I'm a proggy guy and albums from TOT to BC&SL were harder and harder to enjoy as much as everything before them. So I guess something in the writing process / style changed.
-I prefer MP's drumkit sound and recording, it feels like Mangini's cymbals etc are in another room, the bass drums sounds like war dakka dakka typewriter thing and the only thing you hear over it is the snare, that hasn't lot of taste. I wanna hear Mangini with a prog drumkit, loud cymbals and a snare that has some color.
I mean, that's why people say it sounds robotic and "less good" than MP, that's a drumkit sound I would use on a fear factory tribute, not yes/rush fans playing prog music.
-MM is totally capable to play groovy, after or before the beat etc, being someone else and the band wanting to go forward doesn't mean they must forbid themselves from composing an I&W or awake vibe !
I would not say metal happened late in the band, the mirror/lie etc are pretty heavy straightforward songs !
So I'm a little torn, I love what MP did, I think the change happened at the right time for the sake of the band, I even think that MM is a good fit, but I wish they could think a little about what we like and always liked, that is a little off.
Now, onto JLB vocals evolution :D
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When Portnoy left, I was genuinely sad about it. My life was already changing quite a bit (sophomore year in college, you know?), and suddenly one of my rocks - Dream Theater - was changing too. However, in hindsight, I think that it was perfect timing for the band and a blessing in disguise. SC and BC&SL aren't bad records by any means, but I personally feel as though they are missing something. That something largely came back once Mangini came on board, IMO.
One more person agreeing with this.
Back then I was sad about it, I wish they had worked it out and met halfway with him to make it work. But in retrospect it was the right moment for a change in things. 10 years ago I really wished it wouldn't have happened - but it did, DT moved on and made great albums, MP moved on, and eventually so did I. Right now I'm happy with the way things are and I hope this is DT's last lineup.
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ITT - The waning years of MP's tenure in DT were not proggy and too metal?
Uh, folks need to revisit ITPoE I&II, and Count of Tuscany.
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@Petfish-I really enjoyed him talking about the Dream Theater records. I didn’t expect him to have the newer albums, I can’t seem to understand why you would either. I’m sure he’s streamed them or got them on iTunes out of curiosity.
So, say he did have the newer records. And he said he didn’t like them, and explained in detail why, would that be better or worse than not having them?
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When Portnoy left, I was genuinely sad about it. My life was already changing quite a bit (sophomore year in college, you know?), and suddenly one of my rocks - Dream Theater - was changing too. However, in hindsight, I think that it was perfect timing for the band and a blessing in disguise. SC and BC&SL aren't bad records by any means, but I personally feel as though they are missing something. That something largely came back once Mangini came on board, IMO.
Agree as well. You could hear it in MP's efforts in SC and BC&SL that he was 'done'. While yes, the "best" songs from those albums are still some of my favs (ITPOE 1&2 and TCOT) near all the rest of the songs are pretty rudimentary considering MP's talent. And by that I mean pretty rudimentary fills/kick beats/cymbal work. You can tell he was fried and going through the motions.
MM brought and has maintained a level of play that MP honestly hasn't demonstrated in quite some time. His dedication to improvement is unreal and the way he crafts his parts to fit the other band members works perfectly. The divider of fans out there.....The Astonishing......is one long show of session for MM. I challenge anyone to listen to that album from start to finish and just pay attention to what MM is doing in that album and tell me you think MP was willing or ready to produce that type of output? It's been discussed 1000x in 100 other threads but MP is content to reach into his tried and true bag of tricks and just recycle fills/kick beats and fit them in whatever band he's in that day. Fortunately for him when he's with Neal......Neal knows how to craft the music to get the best out of those bag of tricks. The other bands, not so much.
So while I too LOVE the MP era of DT......it was the era I fell in love with them and created so many memories with their music as a backdrop of those times......the MM era is solidifying itself as a welcome rejuvenation of DT music with some incredible pieces of work.
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I always felt there had to be a buildup of the band members dealing with Mike and his OCD and every little minute detail he drove. Over time the demands became larger to the point that they finally said no to him. at that point he said he would leave if there was no hiatus and he left. They were not willing to stop the train.
It's never one thing there's always a billion little things that explode in the end.
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How do you guys feel about Part II of his vinyl collection tour? I'm very disappointed.
He has all the DT releases (multiple versions) with him in the band but none of them afterwards. Considering what a fan of music he is and all of the great and legendary artists he has in his huge collection it's like he no longer considers DT among the upper echelon. I would think/hope that at the very least he'd collect them out of respect for his former and current friends even if he doesn't feel the music belongs in his collection.
It's so frustrating to *hear* about how well he says he's doing and how he's still friends with JP/JR, but then I *see* stuff like this (actions speak louder than words and all that) and I just don't get it. It's all of the little (and sometimes big) passive-aggressive things he does to undermine whatever good things he tries to make us believe he's happy and "over it" tell me he still regrets the situation.
Meh...I don't really care what he does or doesn't buy or own. Also, just because he doesn't own the MM-era DT albums on vinyl doesn't mean he doesn't have them on CD. We all know he has ADTOE, and I'm fairly sure I remember him saying something about JP or JR having given him at least one of the later albums. And, even if he doesn't own them in any form, there are perfectly legitimate reasons why he might now want to have them.
One thing caught my attention as MP was going through the albums was that, when he got to BC&SL, he sort of held it in a way that obsured the next album, and I thought he might be doing that to obscure ADTOE. But he eventually moved it and revealed that the next album was not DT.
I know that if *I* were JP and/or JR I'd have serious issues with how he's handled everything and would talk to him about it (for all we know, they have talked to him) but whatever happened I guess everyone is OK with it but the fans, at least me anyway, are always getting mixed signals.
Fortunately, JP and JR have far more insight into things than any of us and can base their actions accordingly. It also does not appear that either of them is so thin-skinned as to get bent out of shape by stuff like this.
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Well I came late to the DT party so I don't have the emotional connections to the MP era that some board members have. I enjoy the MP era of music but I often wonder where some of the production choices came from. For instance, on some songs I would wonder if he/they coached JLB to sing in a heavier format. Kind of like EVH coaching Gary Cherone on that perilous VH3 album (yuck).
I think the overall writing is better and more mature once MM joined and the others in the band probably contributed more but I also want to give credit to MP because his contributions to the promoting of the band and hell even filming or making sure they had film of the earliest days. I mean, I always felt he was ahead of his time regarding promotion especially in the burgeoning days of the I-Net. I would love to see what he could do as a film director.
As far as his personality, I could see how early on how could be a challenge in dealing with that alpha personality but I like him or what I see of him. I used to know people like him (my friends were from Jersey), I found their candor refreshing as I do MP so I don't want to come off that I am bashing him. I'll save the bashing for DS.
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Did you guys see this Mangini Cameo where he is asked about the MP Era?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKmTr_tFMpM
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@Petfish - that really doesn't bother me. He can be friends with some of the members of DT and still have no desire to listen to their albums without him or add them to his collection. Imo, nothing wrong with that. He could be perfectly happy, or mostly happy, with where he's at now, and still feel weird about DT without him.
As long as he's not badmouthing them or making snarky comments, I think that's enough.
Agreed. I don't think him now owning the last four DT albums on vinyl is any kind of deal at all.
ITT - The waning years of MP's tenure in DT were not proggy and too metal?
Uh, folks need to revisit ITPoE I&II, and Count of Tuscany.
I think it's the incorporation of certain aspects of certain kinds of modern metal, like the near-growls in A Nightmare to Remember, that turned off some. While some albums lean more heavily one way or the other, the prog and metal have both always been prevalent throughout DT's entire history, IMO.
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Did you guys see this Mangini Cameo where he is asked about the MP Era?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKmTr_tFMpM
I don't know what the question was that he was answering, but it sounds like he danced around it quite adroitly.
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ITT - The waning years of MP's tenure in DT were not proggy and too metal?
Uh, folks need to revisit ITPoE I&II, and Count of Tuscany.
:facepalm: Nobody said EVERY SINGLE SONG.
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I think it’s fair to say that the band, whilst they have always been a metal band, did begin to lean more towards a more contemporary metal sound in the later MP years. I don’t think he was entirely responsible for that but I do think he was the biggest metal guy in the band and they also then signed to a metal label. I think it made a degree of sense at the time and the band grew in popularity on the back of that. You began to see a lot of younger metal fans at shows instead of the regular beard stroking brigade. Those fans have disappeared in recent years.
The band were maybe getting a bit stale at the time and it was Portnoy who recognised this and suggested a break, it wasn’t them deciding he had to go. Either that or Portnoy thought he’d get the A7X gig full time and join a huge band, depends what you believe!
In the end, Portnoy leaving did freshen things up a bit and Dream Theater got some inspiration back but the fan base has dwindled a little back to its core fan base pre Roadrunner. It’s gone as smoothly as you could expect for them though really apart from the huge risk they took with The Astonishing which I don’t think went as well as they hoped.
I don’t think it’s worked out for Mike Portnoy very well at all. The A7X thing quickly fell through and he has played with a succession of fairly mediocre (imo) and largely unsuccessful bands. Yes he’s done some good stuff with Neal Morse and Transatlantic but he was working on those bands when he was still in Dream Theater so him leaving did not facilitate that.
I think it’s right that something had to change as DT were going a little stale artistically despite probably being at the height of their commercial success. I think Mike would still much rather have had a break and come back in a few years though rather than DT continue on without him (fairly successfully) and him going back to playing tiny venues with bands not in DT’s league.
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Wikipedia says Distance Over Time is their most successful album.
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Wikipedia says Distance Over Time is their most successful album.
Well...it says, "It is the band's most successful album chart-wise to date, taking top 10 positions in 19 countries (including going to number one in Germany and Switzerland)." While this sentence is unsourced, the article has sourced peak chart position numbers for 20+ countries. IMO, however, peak chart position numbers are a piss poor indicator that DOT is "is their most successful album."
And, FWIW, the Wikipedia article for The Astonishing shows fairly comparable peak position information, so I'm not sure that even the claim of "most successful album chart-wise" is true (I'll leave it to someone else to aggregate the numbers and normalize them based on country size). It's worth noting, however, that, in the U.S. (which I believe is the most populous country listed by a wide measure), TA peaked at a much higher chart position than did DOT (11 for TA and 24 for DOT).
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I don’t think it’s worked out for Mike Portnoy very well at all. The A7X thing quickly fell through and he has played with a succession of fairly mediocre (imo) and largely unsuccessful bands. Yes he’s done some good stuff with Neal Morse and Transatlantic but he was working on those bands when he was still in Dream Theater so him leaving did not facilitate that.
I disagree. Yes, he was working with Neal for years before he left DT, but I doubt Neal's solo band of himself, Portnoy and Randy George mushrooms into the Neal Morse Band if Portnoy is still in DT and going full tilt with them. And who knows if Flying Colors happens either. Maybe, maybe not. From my vantage point, Neal Morse Band and Flying Colors are both major wins for him in the last 10 years (from an artistic and music quality standpoint, not a commercial one). Sure, he has had misses like Adrenaline Mob (a total miss) and Sons of Apollo (a partial miss, as they are decent, if not notable at all), but when you look at Portnoy's career in its totality, I would submit that quite a few of the best albums of his career were made in the last 10 years.
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The band were maybe getting a bit stale at the time and it was Portnoy who recognised this and suggested a break, it wasn’t them deciding he had to go. Either that or Portnoy thought he’d get the A7X gig full time and join a huge band, depends what you believe!
Going by what the A7X guys said back then, he definitely thought that.
's worth noting, however, that, in the U.S. (which I believe is the most populous country listed by a wide measure), TA peaked at a much higher chart position than did DOT (11 for TA and 24 for DOT).
IIRC, the way these things are registered changed before D/T was released, as they now count digital streams too (and some artists are huge in streaming but don't sell physical copies anymore). I believe someone here did the actual math and D/T's position would've been much higher in the US if they used the same method they did before.
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I don’t think it’s worked out for Mike Portnoy very well at all. The A7X thing quickly fell through and he has played with a succession of fairly mediocre (imo) and largely unsuccessful bands. Yes he’s done some good stuff with Neal Morse and Transatlantic but he was working on those bands when he was still in Dream Theater so him leaving did not facilitate that.
I disagree. Yes, he was working with Neal for years before he left DT, but I doubt Neal's solo band of himself, Portnoy and Randy George mushrooms into the Neal Morse Band if Portnoy is still in DT and going full tilt with them. And who knows if Flying Colors happens either. Maybe, maybe not. From my vantage point, Neal Morse Band and Flying Colors are both major wins for him in the last 10 years (from an artistic and music quality standpoint, not a commercial one). Sure, he has had misses like Adrenaline Mob (a total miss) and Sons of Apollo (a partial miss, as they are decent, if not notable at all), but when you look at Portnoy's career in its totality, I would submit that quite a few of the best albums of his career were made in the last 10 years.
Whether or not the last 10 years has really “worked out” for Portnoy is tough to gauge. Artistically? Probably. Financially? Hmm probably not. He seems to really pride himself in having multiple projects right now and that seems to be how he’s measuring success, but that could be overcompensating. There’s something to be said for having that ONE band, that family, that many musicians crave.
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Whether or not the last 10 years has really “worked out” for Portnoy is tough to gauge. Artistically? Probably. Financially? Hmm probably not. He seems to really pride himself in having multiple projects right now and that seems to be how he’s measuring success, but that could be overcompensating. There’s something to be said for having that ONE band, that family, that many musicians crave.
Wow, that's presumptuous.
You're making a lot of assumptions there. Who are we to say that "No MP, you're not really that happy."? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But we would have no idea.
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Whether or not the last 10 years has really “worked out” for Portnoy is tough to gauge. Artistically? Probably. Financially? Hmm probably not. He seems to really pride himself in having multiple projects right now and that seems to be how he’s measuring success, but that could be overcompensating. There’s something to be said for having that ONE band, that family, that many musicians crave.
Wow, that's presumptuous.
You're making a lot of assumptions there. Who are we to say that "No MP, you're not really that happy."? Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. But we would have no idea.
That’s exactly my point, we don’t know. I’m not presuming anything. Some posters were discussing whether things have “worked out” the last decade for Portnoy. That can mean a lot of things to different people and it really depends on Portnoy’s perspective on that. We DO know he’s been prolific as an artist the past decade and that seems to be important to him but we also know he’s hasn’t enjoyed the same kind of commercial reach he had in DT and he’s given indications over the years of a desire to rejoin his old band. For those reasons I can’t really make a judgement call on whether things have or haven’t “worked out” for MP.
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I don’t think it’s worked out for Mike Portnoy very well at all. The A7X thing quickly fell through and he has played with a succession of fairly mediocre (imo) and largely unsuccessful bands. Yes he’s done some good stuff with Neal Morse and Transatlantic but he was working on those bands when he was still in Dream Theater so him leaving did not facilitate that.
I disagree. Yes, he was working with Neal for years before he left DT, but I doubt Neal's solo band of himself, Portnoy and Randy George mushrooms into the Neal Morse Band if Portnoy is still in DT and going full tilt with them. And who knows if Flying Colors happens either. Maybe, maybe not. From my vantage point, Neal Morse Band and Flying Colors are both major wins for him in the last 10 years (from an artistic and music quality standpoint, not a commercial one). Sure, he has had misses like Adrenaline Mob (a total miss) and Sons of Apollo (a partial miss, as they are decent, if not notable at all), but when you look at Portnoy's career in its totality, I would submit that quite a few of the best albums of his career were made in the last 10 years.
I’m not really sure how you think Neal Morse solo has “mushroomed” into the Neal Morse Band. They’re essentially doing the same thing they’ve always done. Have they accelerated in the number of albums they put out? Are the tours longer? It may be a little more collaborative than Neal’s solo albums but I don’t think Mike’s involvement has changed an awful lot. There’s no reason to think his involvement could not have continued if he stayed in Dream Theater.
Would Flying Colors have happened? Who knows? He managed to play in Transatlantic, Neal Morse, OSI and LTE whilst still in DT. I would class FC in the mediocre, commercially unsuccessful category anyway but that’s just my opinion. Sad to say this as I think Steve Morse is a phenomenal player and I am a big fan of Neal and Mike too. For whatever reason it just doesn’t work for me, it’s not awful, it’s just not great either. I know there are a few on here that do enjoy this band though.
You then have AMob, Winery Dogs, Sons Of Apollo, Metal Allegiance and whatever the name of the band he’s in now doing covers of old songs. I’m not saying they’re all terrible, I’ve enjoyed the odd song here and there but they have enjoyed little (if any) commercial success. In my subjective opinion they have not been successful artistically either, they’re not what I would consider bands that are undiscovered gems that deserve more success.
You may disagree but in my opinion, the only great stuff he’s put out since leaving DT is from Transatlantic and Neal Morse solo/NMB, both of which he was doing whilst in DT.
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I’m not really sure how you think Neal Morse solo has “mushroomed” into the Neal Morse Band. They’re essentially doing the same thing they’ve always done. Have they accelerated in the number of albums they put out? Are the tours longer? It may be a little more collaborative than Neal’s solo albums but I don’t think Mike’s involvement has changed an awful lot. There’s no reason to think his involvement could not have continued if he stayed in Dream Theater.
The only time that Mike toured with Neal while he was still in DT was the Testimony 1 tour in 2003. After that, Neal only played a couple of US gigs with a band (without Mike and with an all-new band you never saw again). It was only in 2011 for the Testimony 2 tour, after Mike had left DT, that Neal got to do a US solo tour and Mike has been part of his live band ever since.
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Ah, I see, fair play. I only saw them on the Testimony 1 tour so just assumed it worked the same with the other albums. He could still play on the records though, if in DT, even if they had to have a touring drummer for some of the live shows.
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Whether or not the last 10 years has really “worked out” for Portnoy is tough to gauge. Artistically? Probably. Financially? Hmm probably not. He seems to really pride himself in having multiple projects right now and that seems to be how he’s measuring success, but that could be overcompensating. There’s something to be said for having that ONE band, that family, that many musicians crave.
I have no idea of how he's doing financially, but I'm sure he's not strapped for cash. One of the things that he said around the time that he left DT is that he could have just stayed with the band and ridden it out into the sunset, being financially secure. Because he knew that by leaving the band, he would not do as well financially. But for him is was far more important to follow his muse than just be comfortable. So considering that, I would say the answer is "yes" - because artistically was the motivating factor in his leaving. It had nothing to do with finances.
I’m not really sure how you think Neal Morse solo has “mushroomed” into the Neal Morse Band. They’re essentially doing the same thing they’ve always done.
Not exactly Peter. As I understand it, previously NM was calling all the shots with MP and the others serving as his backing band. That changed with The Grand Experiment, where MP and the others all got much more involved in the songwriting and everything else, and it took more of a similar form to what TA is
You may disagree but in my opinion, the only great stuff he’s put out since leaving DT is from Transatlantic and Neal Morse solo/NMB, both of which he was doing whilst in DT.
And that's the key right there. Your opinion. And everyone else has varying opinions as well.
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NMB is more collaborative than NM solo, I did make reference to that. I just wouldn’t expect that it is massively more time consuming to Mike than it was previously, certainly not to the point where it would require him to leave Dream Theater in order to continue. The touring is a different matter of course.
As for people’s opinions, I’ve gone to great pains in my posts to point out that it was my opinion and of course others may disagree, it’s a discussion. I certainly don’t think I’m alone though in being fairly underwhelmed by Mike’s post DT output (NM and TA aside) especially considering how great (in my opinion) all his projects were whilst in DT. I loved LTE, OSI, TA and NM and he seemed to have a real Midas touch back then in choosing his collaborators.
I take no pleasure in not enjoying these projects and I do own the AMob EP and first album, I also own the first Flying Colors, the first Winery Dogs, the first Sons Of Apollo. I wanted these to be good and he had earned the benefit of the doubt after all he did for the fans whilst in DT and the consistent quality he had put out. None of them however made enough impact for me to buy the follow up.
I will say that I am massively looking forward to the new TA album and would be very excited if LTE reformed, I also love NMB. There’s still 2 and possibly 3 projects he is involved in that I enjoy and that’s more than I can say for most musicians so I am still an MP fan. All those projects were around before he left DT though. His new post DT projects just haven’t grabbed me yet. If others do enjoy them then that’s great, I’m happy for them, I’m not one of those hoping for him to fail.
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Whether or not the last 10 years has really “worked out” for Portnoy is tough to gauge. Artistically? Probably. Financially? Hmm probably not. He seems to really pride himself in having multiple projects right now and that seems to be how he’s measuring success, but that could be overcompensating. There’s something to be said for having that ONE band, that family, that many musicians crave.
I have no idea of how he's doing financially, but I'm sure he's not strapped for cash. One of the things that he said around the time that he left DT is that he could have just stayed with the band and ridden it out into the sunset, being financially secure. Because he knew that by leaving the band, he would not do as well financially. But for him is was far more important to follow his muse than just be comfortable. So considering that, I would say the answer is "yes" - because artistically was the motivating factor in his leaving. It had nothing to do with finances.
Fair point. Even if he had gotten the Ax7 gig, I’d think being a part owner in DT would have been more lucrative than being a permanent employee of Ax7.
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I’m not really sure how you think Neal Morse solo has “mushroomed” into the Neal Morse Band. They’re essentially doing the same thing they’ve always done. Have they accelerated in the number of albums they put out? Are the tours longer? It may be a little more collaborative than Neal’s solo albums but I don’t think Mike’s involvement has changed an awful lot. There’s no reason to think his involvement could not have continued if he stayed in Dream Theater.
The only time that Mike toured with Neal while he was still in DT was the Testimony 1 tour in 2003. After that, Neal only played a couple of US gigs with a band (without Mike and with an all-new band you never saw again). It was only in 2011 for the Testimony 2 tour, after Mike had left DT, that Neal got to do a US solo tour and Mike has been part of his live band ever since.
Thank you. I cannot remember the exact reasons why Neal decided to form the Neal Morse Band, but I have to think that Portnoy being far more available when it came to touring was a big factor.
As I understand it, previously NM was calling all the shots with MP and the others serving as his backing band. That changed with The Grand Experiment, where MP and the others all got much more involved in the songwriting and everything else, and it took more of a similar form to what TA is
Based on recent comments by both Neal and Portnoy, I think that is correct. On Neal's solo albums, he writes them all by himself, and of course the others are free to make suggestions and whatnot, but he ultimately calls the shots. With NMB, it is a more collaborative writing effort, with Neal still having the most fingerprints on the final draft of course. Based on the making of Similitude, I get the impression that Neal is still kind of charge when it comes to NMB (see: band leader), but being the leader of a band is different than being a solo artist and having 100% say-so in how things go.
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I'd love to hear MP's take on the drums for the MM-penned songs. But, if MP had stayed, the albums of the last 10 years would have sounded much different than what we got. So, that is just a fantasy. Whenever I play the MM-era songs on drums, I find myself playing them in Portnoy's style, because MM's parts are so damn hard to replicate.
-Tof
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I cannot remember the exact reasons why Neal decided to form the Neal Morse Band, but I have to think that Portnoy being far more available when it came to touring was a big factor.
I remember Neal saying about Momentum that he wanted to have some musicians who were local that he could collaborate with on a regular basis. Remember, for the albums leading up to that, he basically had a European backing band, which had become sort of a revolving door, and I think he was just frustrated that he didn't have local people he could collaborate with. So he auditioned and brought in Bill and Eric. I think that was on a bonus documentary for Momentum, but I don't remember 100%. And I think that the chemistry was just good, so when it came time to write the next album, he was getting a lot more input and collaboration from everyone, which was a different dynamic, hence the variation on the band name. That's my recollection and what I drew from it, anyway.
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I cannot remember the exact reasons why Neal decided to form the Neal Morse Band, but I have to think that Portnoy being far more available when it came to touring was a big factor.
I remember Neal saying about Momentum that he wanted to have some musicians who were local that he could collaborate with on a regular basis. Remember, for the albums leading up to that, he basically had a European backing band, which had become sort of a revolving door, and I think he was just frustrated that he didn't have local people he could collaborate with. So he auditioned and brought in Bill and Eric. I think that was on a bonus documentary for Momentum, but I don't remember 100%. And I think that the chemistry was just good, so when it came time to write the next album, he was getting a lot more input and collaboration from everyone, which was a different dynamic, hence the variation on the band name. That's my recollection and what I drew from it, anyway.
Wasn't there another guitarist that was actually chosen? I watched that doc a long time ago and seem to recall a Brazilian guy getting the gig but obviously that didn't happen.
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Even if he had gotten the Ax7 gig, I’d think being a part owner in DT would have been more lucrative than being a permanent employee of Ax7.
I wouldn't be so sure. It would depend on how any agreement with A7X might be structured. There are a lot of variables. A7X as an entity does make more money, given their album sales and the touring they are able to do. How much of that Mike would have seen would just have depended on what they would have agreed to. One big variable is writing credit. I haven't followed them at all since Nightmare to know how they have handled writing credit, but if Mike could have gotten a share of writing credit on songs, that could potentially have been VERY lucrative. Keep in mind that Mike is VERY well acquainted with the business side of the industry. Although I am sure he would have made some concessions, I doubt he would have been content to just take a base salary and nothing more. He would have known what to ask for and how hard to push for certain other perks. I think that's why the A7X guys subsequently said that one of the factors in deciding early on that Mike was only going to be temporary was that he would have come with a price tag.
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I cannot remember the exact reasons why Neal decided to form the Neal Morse Band, but I have to think that Portnoy being far more available when it came to touring was a big factor.
I remember Neal saying about Momentum that he wanted to have some musicians who were local that he could collaborate with on a regular basis. Remember, for the albums leading up to that, he basically had a European backing band, which had become sort of a revolving door, and I think he was just frustrated that he didn't have local people he could collaborate with. So he auditioned and brought in Bill and Eric. I think that was on a bonus documentary for Momentum, but I don't remember 100%. And I think that the chemistry was just good, so when it came time to write the next album, he was getting a lot more input and collaboration from everyone, which was a different dynamic, hence the variation on the band name. That's my recollection and what I drew from it, anyway.
Wasn't there another guitarist that was actually chosen? I watched that doc a long time ago and seem to recall a Brazilian guy getting the gig but obviously that didn't happen.
I can't think of his name, but yes. He was the main guitar player on the Momentum tour (or at least at the show that was recorded and released), while Eric was merely the secondary guitar player and another keyboard player, which is crazy to think about now given how great and valuable he has been to the NMB.
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I cannot remember the exact reasons why Neal decided to form the Neal Morse Band, but I have to think that Portnoy being far more available when it came to touring was a big factor.
I remember Neal saying about Momentum that he wanted to have some musicians who were local that he could collaborate with on a regular basis. Remember, for the albums leading up to that, he basically had a European backing band, which had become sort of a revolving door, and I think he was just frustrated that he didn't have local people he could collaborate with. So he auditioned and brought in Bill and Eric. I think that was on a bonus documentary for Momentum, but I don't remember 100%. And I think that the chemistry was just good, so when it came time to write the next album, he was getting a lot more input and collaboration from everyone, which was a different dynamic, hence the variation on the band name. That's my recollection and what I drew from it, anyway.
Wasn't there another guitarist that was actually chosen? I watched that doc a long time ago and seem to recall a Brazilian guy getting the gig but obviously that didn't happen.
I can't think of his name, but yes. He was the main guitar player on the Momentum tour (or at least at the show that was recorded and released), while Eric was merely the secondary guitar player and another keyboard player, which is crazy to think about now given how great and valuable he has been to the NMB.
Any word on why he left Neal's band? And yeah, making Eric a secondary guy is a hell of an oversight. He's irreplaceable in Neal's music at this point imo
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Any word on why he left Neal's band? And yeah, making Eric a secondary guy is a hell of an oversight. He's irreplaceable in Neal's music at this point imo
Marc (The Letter M) probably remembers this better than I do if he sees this thread, but I think he had some issue with his visa and staying in the country. I could be misremembering, but I think that was the situation.
I am not sure I would call it an oversight though, re: Eric. He probably came in and played guitar, keys and drums, making Neal think, "hey, this guy is great and can play a little bit of everything, so he can be another jack of all trades-type guy in the band" (Neal being the original jack of all trades guy in the band).
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Adson Sodre was selected as the main guitar player for the Momentum tour (and he actually recorded a couple solos on World Without End for the album). IIRC, he had visa issues, since he's brazilian. Eric was only brought in as the "extra" guy doing a bit of everything but not really a "main" role at all. I guess Adson having visa issues was the best thing that could happen for Eric :lol
They had Adson as a guest on two songs when they went to Brazil in 2017 (https://youtu.be/hc1Bz22f69Y)
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I remember watching the live Momentum DVD for years and thinking Adson was just tremendous. I didn't even notice Eric at the time. But I don't think there would have been space for both of them in The Neal Morse Band.
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Yeah, he was really good, but Eric brings the added bonus of being a good singer.
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I'm not gonna dwell on the "He fucking left the band!" discussion that's already been settled, so about the other thing...
MP might have been a bit more metal-oriented at the time he left, seeing how he was playing with Avenged Sevenfold and went to Adrenaline Mob right after, but I don't think that's something that spanned the entirety of the 2000s era as the OP might have said. MP, like many of us, is a guy that becomes really focused and obsessive with a certain genre of music at one time and then goes to focus on another genre. In his recent Vinyl room videos he said he was actually listening to a lot of Radiohead when they went in the studio to make SDOIT, and that's in part where the experimental parts of that album come from. The Glass Prison was inspired by him and Petrucci going to see Pantera and I think it was JP who was the one inspired by them to write the structure of that song. For Systematic Chaos They surely must have been influenced by Megadeth, who they toured with in the Octavarium tour...
All in all, they're all huge metal fans, and while sure MP was influential and had an immense say in the musical direction they went in his later DT years I can't say that he was the sole responsible for the more "Heavy" sound of the band towards the end of the 2000s.
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I agree with that LC.
JP is as much of, if not more metal than MP. It's unfair to that MP gets the rap on that.
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I agree with that LC.
JP is as much of, if not more metal than MP. It's unfair to that MP gets the rap on that.
MP said at one point (and I don't know if this was before or after he left the band) something to the effect that, "while I might be the most 'metal' guy in the band I'm also the most 'prog' guy." The explanation that went along with that was that, of all the members of the band, he went the furthest down the "prog" spectrum in terms of stuff he liked. I don't know if that's true, but it wouldn't surprise me.
At one point long before MP left, I came to the conclusion that some of the more straight-up metal songs by DT that weren't my favorite were more reflective of the "MP-side" of the band and that most of my favorite songs were more attributable to the "JP-side." Over time -- and especially after MP left the band -- I came to realize I was quite mistaken about that..
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The reason why the in all the different lineups the guys worked so well together is that they all shared about 50% of the same brain, music-wise. They had enough differences to modify each other's work and steer each other in different directions, but it's not very easy to determine who did what unless one of them is directly telling you. For instance, spoken word and movie samples are all over early DT music, and then they're all over Kevin's later music and not *so* much in latter DT, so someone might conclude that was all Kevin - but then you get into MP's stories of how they made those albums, and it turns out he was equally into putting samples in.
And out of everyone who shared the same brain in this band, JP and MP definitely always had and still have the most in common. So it's just very hard to point at one of them. I think it's fairly safe to say MP was more about contemporary references (he's the one who brought in Muse into the inspo corner), and JP was more about the classic references, but there's a chance I'm wrong about that too.
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I agree with that LC.
JP is as much of, if not more metal than MP. It's unfair to that MP gets the rap on that.
MP said at one point (and I don't know if this was before or after he left the band) something to the effect that, "while I might be the most 'metal' guy in the band I'm also the most 'prog' guy." The explanation that went along with that was that, of all the members of the band, he went the furthest down the "prog" spectrum in terms of stuff he liked. I don't know if that's true, but it wouldn't surprise me.
I think that’s probably fair although Jordan Rudess seems a fairly big prog guy as well. I get the impression JP is somewhere in the middle where he is not into super extreme prog music or super extreme metal music. Much like Dream Theater themselves are prog but not too far out there and metal but not too heavy and extreme. You could argue in some ways that DT is more a reflection of JP than anyone else. His solo album and LTE albums are pretty much in the same vein. You can’t see him doing an album like Transatlantic the way Mike has done.
I think where Mike gets some of the blame for albums that anyone may not like, is that, from seeing interviews in the past, you got the impression that he had a level of control of the direction and trajectory of the band. Whilst he was not necessarily the primary writer of the music, you get the impression he steered the music where he wanted the band to go, maybe not early on but probably from Scenes onwards. I don’t mean he was some dictator, just that they trusted him to map out musically where the band should go. For example, with Train Of Thought, I’d lay money on that being Mike’s idea to make a full on metal album and then his idea to follow it up with a more prog album in Octavarium with all the nuggets that were included. Systematic Chaos was then a very modern sounding metal album to appeal to the Roadrunner generation with Mike’s influences all over it. It was all working as well as the bands fanbase grew and grew in that time. At the point he left, they were arguably the biggest they’ve ever been.
It’s absolutely correct to say Petrucci is a metal guy and is the bands main composer and lyricist so not everything can be placed at Mike’s door. I think it’s also correct to say however that the band, to some degree, followed Mike’s lead in the type of albums they made at that time. Therefore, if you have a problem with any of the post SFAM albums (which I personally don’t) I think you have to point the finger at both JP and MP.
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I think that’s probably fair although Jordan Rudess seems a fairly big prog guy as well. I get the impression JP is somewhere in the middle where he is not into super extreme prog music or super extreme metal music.
I'm not that in tune with the prog aspect of his tastes in great detail. But, for example, I know he is really into Crimson. When they toured with Crimson ProjeKCt, he was so geeked out about touring with them.
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I think that’s probably fair although Jordan Rudess seems a fairly big prog guy as well. I get the impression JP is somewhere in the middle where he is not into super extreme prog music or super extreme metal music.
I'm not that in tune with the prog aspect of his tastes in great detail. But, for example, I know he is really into Crimson. When they toured with Crimson ProjeKCt, he was so geeked out about touring with them.
He’s also a huge Emerson Lake & Palmer fan. From what I remember he often cites Tarkus as his favorite album.
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Yeah, Jordan's 2007 album The Road Home is chock full of classic prog. Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, ELP, even Gentle Giant. Jordan's a proghead.
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I think that’s probably fair although Jordan Rudess seems a fairly big prog guy as well. I get the impression JP is somewhere in the middle where he is not into super extreme prog music or super extreme metal music.
I'm not that in tune with the prog aspect of his tastes in great detail. But, for example, I know he is really into Crimson. When they toured with Crimson ProjeKCt, he was so geeked out about touring with them.
He’s also a huge Emerson Lake & Palmer fan. From what I remember he often cites Tarkus as his favorite album.
I think Bosk was talking about JP.
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Oops.
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Ditto. Oops.
Well, for Petrucci we know he's deep into the classics of Rush, Marillion, Yes, Pink Floyd.
As a guitarist I can tell you he's certainly borrowed a thing or two from Al Di Meola and Return to Forever over the years.
From what I can tell is that he gravitates more towards the guitar-heavy prog side- for the same reason he digs Metallica, Maiden, Ozzy etc
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I sent this text to a friend earlier....
"I prefer Mangini in DT but, I will take any Portnoy with Petrucci when I can get it."
Personally, I am not too interested in other Portnoy projects since he left/they didn't let him change his mind. Regardless of the technicalities, it is all on Portnoy.
Further thoughts on this topic:
Honestly, I feel like Mangini is a better fit from a super mega nice family men rockin' nerd prospective. And, let's be real, that is what they are. It is one of my favorite things about them. Portnoy had more of metal head 'personality' than all other guys. I love them both, seriously, but given the choice I am a Mangini man.
And, here's the real kicker for me. Portnoy wanted them to take a break. F)(#*)@(*$#)(*$ that noise. We barely get any material as it is and he wanted to take a break. When I heard that I literally said aloud, "oh, Hell no, see ya." I am happy he wanted to take his ass to the side projects since he wanted to cut into my joy of getting new DT material.
;D
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I, for one, think the "metal vs prog in DT" debate is really not where it's at. It's in the little things: MP started to have his way on things that were not possibly the best things for the band in my opinion. For example, his "lead vocals" that never, ever worked for me. Not in the slightest. That felt more of a projection of his personality, his desire to be heard as opposed to "the balls in DT music in contrast to James' cleaner voice" argument he always put out. James can run circles around MP vocally in every sense of the word because he *is* a vocalist a MP is not. For example, I really dig the JLB arrangement they did for the heavy section in ANTR they played on the last tour. JLB is clearly not in his best right now, but he did a pretty great job and I'll take that every time over MP's half-assed tough guy/growly vocals. I mean no disrespect, but that's the only word that comes to mind. So, when the moment came MP wanted to stop DT for an indefinite hiatus and he got a big and round "no" for an answer, he was shocked. For the first time, he lost control of the band and that must not have been something easy to process and deal for him.
Both parties really benefited from the separation, but I cannot help but feel that MP cannot fill that void left by DT and with fair reason. He loves patting himself in the back and saying like "I'm in 15 bands right now and I'm releasing 10 albums this year, so life is good in MP land!", which is really something but at the same time feels like a constant "see? I'm good without DT!" when that shadow will always linger and is clearly there.
I mostly agree with this. :tup :tup
Portnoy has his moments as a singer given his limits as a vocalist (there are songs by NMB and Flying Colors both where he sings some lead that I like), but the problem in his DT days, like you said, is that he often tried to do too much because he wanted to be heard. Take Home on Scenes Live from NY. The harmonies during the first verse are ones where JLB is the lead and Portnoy (and Petrucci, I think) should be singing along to fill out the sound, but he is belting it out like he is trying to be louder than James, and then he does that thing at the end of the second line where he holds it an extra second or two after James had stopped, which sounds terrible. And don't even get me started on that yelpy thing he did at the end of the Schmedley Wilcox medley they did on the SC tour. The fact that he thought that was a good idea, and that either no one told it wasn't or that he ignored them and did it anyway, was a good indicator that he was drunk with too much power at that point.
I haven't listened to the live version of that album in a long time. I don't remember Portnoy being too loud on that song but I do remember the harmonies sounding like complete shit. And I think those harmonies were "fixed" for the album & DVD. Yikes!
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I haven't listened to the live version of that album in a long time. I don't remember Portnoy being too loud on that song but I do remember the harmonies sounding like complete shit. And I think those harmonies were "fixed" for the album & DVD. Yikes!
One thing that stood out big time when I first heard LSFNY on CD was how bad the harmony vocals were on Fatal Tragedy ("without love, without truth...."). If what you hear on the album/DVD are "fixed," then I shudder to think what the un-fixed version sounded like.
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I haven't listened to the live version of that album in a long time. I don't remember Portnoy being too loud on that song but I do remember the harmonies sounding like complete shit. And I think those harmonies were "fixed" for the album & DVD. Yikes!
One thing that stood out big time when I first heard LSFNY on CD was how bad the harmony vocals were on Fatal Tragedy ("without love, without truth...."). If what you hear on the album/DVD are "fixed," then I shudder to think what the un-fixed version sounded like.
https://www.mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/faq/answers/12.aspx#312
MP: John's vox on Live Scenes From New York were overdubbed and mine were the original live ones... (the only one of John's that weren't overdubbed is the bridge of Through Her Eyes because we were sharing a mic....and that high, cracking harmony was NOT me!!*cough*)
I should've put that in my other post but I couldn't remember at the time where I heard about the overdubs.
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And, here's the real kicker for me. Portnoy wanted them to take a break. F)(#*)@(*$#)(*$ that noise. We barely get any material as it is and he wanted to take a break. When I heard that I literally said aloud, "oh, Hell no, see ya." I am happy he wanted to take his ass to the side projects since he wanted to cut into my joy of getting new DT material.
Care to elaborate more on this? Are you limiting this comment to just DT or from your favorite musicians as a whole?
Hopefully my counting skills are correct with the numbers here... I'll just round up to 10 years at this point, but in the 10 years since MP left the band, they went through the process of finding a new drummer and have put out 4 studio albums and 2 live albums (3rd live album is on its way). For the last 10 years that MP was in the band, they put out 5 studio albums and 3 live albums. So at least to me, there hasn't been that much of a drop off in output between the last of the MP era and MM era, especially considering the amount of touring that they do as well and the extra amount of time and resources they put into The Astonishing.
So I'm just curious if that bolded comment was directed at just DT, because if so, I think the amount of output that they've maintained since MP left - and have done over their entire career for that matter - is pretty consistent and plentiful. IMHO at least.
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Anyone else hear bootlegs of them doing Fatal Tragedy with him singing “you can eat ass and balls” in the chorus? That was....interesting.
I missed this post when I first read through this thread :lol I haven't heard those bootlegs but I heard a live version of As I Am where LaBrie sang those words. Strange.
Something else I missed when I first read through this thread: comments about the metal-style vocals LaBrie used in the mid-2000s albums. LaBrie was doing that back in the Images & Words live stuff as well the Awake studio & live material. I never saw them back in the day but I've heard live stuff from that era and I never thought that style suited LaBrie. His normal clean style was great. Anyway my point is, LaBrie was pushed to sing outside his normal zone back in the early to mid 1990s. Who was the culprit?
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Yeah, I think the folks who say it wasn't about money are wrong. Everything is always about money. It may not always be the only factor, but it's always a factor; more often than not, the main factor. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Portnoy wanted to "take a break because the band is stale" at exactly the same time Avenged Sevenfold needed a drummer for the tour and possibly for a permanent position.
Mike saw the potential payday in that and attempted to pitch himself for the position, I think, assuming that because he's 'Mike Portnoy' they'd be chomping at the bit to sign him up. Remember the bit about him saying, "I put out my press release, so I can be with you now!" I don't think he expected them to NOT offer him the full time gig. I think he was counting on it. It's always about money. Sorry man, that's just how life is. He gambled and lost. It happens. Just not always this publicly.
That's the only explanation of the events that makes any sense to me because it's always about the money. You know how to tell it's about the money? When they tell you 'it's not about the money' you know it's about the money, because its always about the money.
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That's pretty damned cynical, and also false. I've been gigging for free my entire life, because it's not always about the money. I actually love to play and will do it for free. Because I love to play, and because it isn't always about the money.
My band hasn't gigged since February because of COVID lockdowns and shit, but I keep on gigging for free because it isn't always about the money.
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That's the only explanation of the events that makes any sense to me because it's always about the money. You know how to tell it's about the money? When they tell you 'it's not about the money' you know it's about the money, because its always about the money.
Doesn't that become a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy?
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Yeah, I think the folks who say it wasn't about money are wrong. Everything is always about money. It may not always be the only factor, but it's always a factor; more often than not, the main factor. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Portnoy wanted to "take a break because the band is stale" at exactly the same time Avenged Sevenfold needed a drummer for the tour and possibly for a permanent position.
Definitely disagree. He was in a *very* comfortable position within DT. While I don't know any specifics, I'd wager he probably made more money from DT than anyone else in the band, aside from perhaps JP. I doubt even if he was hired permanently by A7X that he would get the same payout that he was getting with DT - those guys were fully invested in the band, MP wasn't. Why would they give him the same cut that they got? Makes no sense at all.
I wouldn't say his wanting to join A7X was anything more about the money than any of the other bands/projects he's been involved in. Of course he's not gonna get involved with something for free (unless a favor for a friend on a one-time basis), but for him it's all about the music and the collaboration. Had he been chasing after other big name bands or drumming for huge solo artists, then you might have a point. But seeing as pretty much everything he's been involved in since then has been on the smaller scale, I'd say no.
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Everything is always about money. It may not always be the only factor, but it's always a factor; more often than not, the main factor.
Whether or not MP's voluntary choice to leave the was or wasn't financially motivated (and none of us know whether it was or wasn't), these statements are utter nonsense. Everything is always about money? No.
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Yeah, I think the folks who say it wasn't about money are wrong. Everything is always about money. It may not always be the only factor, but it's always a factor; more often than not, the main factor. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Portnoy wanted to "take a break because the band is stale" at exactly the same time Avenged Sevenfold needed a drummer for the tour and possibly for a permanent position.
Mike saw the potential payday in that and attempted to pitch himself for the position, I think, assuming that because he's 'Mike Portnoy' they'd be chomping at the bit to sign him up. Remember the bit about him saying, "I put out my press release, so I can be with you now!" I don't think he expected them to NOT offer him the full time gig. I think he was counting on it. It's always about money. Sorry man, that's just how life is. He gambled and lost. It happens. Just not always this publicly.
That's the only explanation of the events that makes any sense to me because it's always about the money. You know how to tell it's about the money? When they tell you 'it's not about the money' you know it's about the money, because its always about the money.
I think this is part of it. I think the other part was just playing in a band (Avenged) that was popular. They were headlining big shows at the time. I think they were headlining a big festival tour in the US while he was with them. At the time they were getting more mainstream recognition than DT and I think that (and the money) were gave him the ego...I mean, confidence to leave. At the time he was adamant that he didn’t leave DT to join AX7, but it was pretty obvious. He even tried to get back in the band after the AX7 guys cut him loose.
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Yeah, I think the folks who say it wasn't about money are wrong. Everything is always about money. It may not always be the only factor, but it's always a factor; more often than not, the main factor. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Portnoy wanted to "take a break because the band is stale" at exactly the same time Avenged Sevenfold needed a drummer for the tour and possibly for a permanent position.
Mike saw the potential payday in that and attempted to pitch himself for the position, I think, assuming that because he's 'Mike Portnoy' they'd be chomping at the bit to sign him up. Remember the bit about him saying, "I put out my press release, so I can be with you now!" I don't think he expected them to NOT offer him the full time gig. I think he was counting on it. It's always about money. Sorry man, that's just how life is. He gambled and lost. It happens. Just not always this publicly.
That's the only explanation of the events that makes any sense to me because it's always about the money. You know how to tell it's about the money? When they tell you 'it's not about the money' you know it's about the money, because its always about the money.
I think this is part of it. I think the other part was just playing in a band (Avenged) that was popular. They were headlining big shows at the time. I think they were headlining a big festival tour in the US while he was with them. At the time they were getting more mainstream recognition than DT and I think that (and the money) were gave him the ego...I mean, confidence to leave. At the time he was adamant that he didn’t leave DT to join AX7, but it was pretty obvious. He even tried to get back in the band after the AX7 guys cut him loose.
Avenged Sevenfold even told MP, why did he do that.
To me, all MP had to do was to try and calm his OCD and try and relinquish control of certain aspects of the band. Let JM do the interviews, let JLB make the setlists, let JR edit the videos. But him not wanting to relinquish that control is a side effect of OCD. It's hard for someone with it to let others take control, especially if it's something the OCD person helped start or create.
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I know people with real OCD. He doesn’t have OCD, he’s just a control freak.
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I know people with real OCD. He doesn’t have OCD, he’s just a control freak.
(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/69111166.jpg)
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I know people with real OCD. He doesn’t have OCD, he’s just a control freak.
As someone who is treated for and takes meds for OCD.. it was would be impossible for you to know this.
A person can be doing compulsive rituals in their head and you would have literally no idea it was going on.
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I know people with real OCD. He doesn’t have OCD, he’s just a control freak.
As someone who is treated for and takes meds for OCD.. it was would be impossible for you to know this.
Indeed. The notion that simply knowing a couple people with a condition qualifies one to diagnose a person as having or not having that same condition simply based on knowing that person's public persona is absurd.
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Yeah, I think the folks who say it wasn't about money are wrong. Everything is always about money. It may not always be the only factor, but it's always a factor; more often than not, the main factor. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Portnoy wanted to "take a break because the band is stale" at exactly the same time Avenged Sevenfold needed a drummer for the tour and possibly for a permanent position.
Mike saw the potential payday in that and attempted to pitch himself for the position, I think, assuming that because he's 'Mike Portnoy' they'd be chomping at the bit to sign him up. Remember the bit about him saying, "I put out my press release, so I can be with you now!" I don't think he expected them to NOT offer him the full time gig. I think he was counting on it. It's always about money. Sorry man, that's just how life is. He gambled and lost. It happens. Just not always this publicly.
That's the only explanation of the events that makes any sense to me because it's always about the money. You know how to tell it's about the money? When they tell you 'it's not about the money' you know it's about the money, because its always about the money.
I think this is part of it. I think the other part was just playing in a band (Avenged) that was popular. They were headlining big shows at the time. I think they were headlining a big festival tour in the US while he was with them. At the time they were getting more mainstream recognition than DT and I think that (and the money) were gave him the ego...I mean, confidence to leave. At the time he was adamant that he didn’t leave DT to join AX7, but it was pretty obvious. He even tried to get back in the band after the AX7 guys cut him loose.
Avenged Sevenfold even told MP, why did he do that.
To me, all MP had to do was to try and calm his OCD and try and relinquish control of certain aspects of the band. Let JM do the interviews, let JLB make the setlists, let JR edit the videos. But him not wanting to relinquish that control is a side effect of OCD. It's hard for someone with it to let others take control, especially if it's something the OCD person helped start or create.
Did those guys ever expressed any interest in taking on those extra tasks during the Portnoy days? I'm guessing Myung wouldn't want to be the lead interviewee all the time...or even half the time.
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That's pretty damned cynical, and also false. I've been gigging for free my entire life, because it's not always about the money. I actually love to play and will do it for free. Because I love to play, and because it isn't always about the money.
My band hasn't gigged since February because of COVID lockdowns and shit, but I keep on gigging for free because it isn't always about the money.
I’m not sure he’s saying that Mike only plays music because of money. Even your own example though that you gig for free. If another band came to you and said they’d been offered a record deal and do you want to come play with them and get paid, I’m guessing you would if the money was right.
That’s the thing, Mike was in DT and was making a decent living but then one of the biggest metal bands in the world come along and he thinks that they want him to be their new drummer. He then leaves DT to join this huge band and they say “whoa, slow down there buddy, why are you putting press releases out? No one offered you the gig full time, we haven’t decided what we’re doing yet”. In that moment though, they did decide. They decided they didn’t want this old attention seeking guy, they didn’t want to be “Avenged Sevenfold featuring the incredible Mike Portnoy” they just wanted a new guy to come in quietly, settle in and become a member of the band. Mike then tries to run back to DT and they say, “no chance dude, you bailed on us to join another band”.
That’s not the story Mike tells but it’s the story A7X and Dream Theater tell and I doubt they are lying, A7X in particular have no reason to.
It wasn’t purely money, it was the thought of the fame, the glory, playing stadiums, headlining huge festivals and the money that would undoubtedly bring in. I don’t blame Mike for doing it, on paper it was a huge opportunity. Unfortunately though he should’ve made sure he had the A7X gig in the bag before bailing on gig he already had.
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I know people with real OCD. He doesn’t have OCD, he’s just a control freak.
As someone who is treated for and takes meds for OCD.. it was would be impossible for you to know this.
A person can be doing compulsive rituals in their head and you would have literally no idea it was going on.
Ok - but does Portnoy exhibit any characteristics / symptoms of genuine OCD - beyond his penchant for collecting ?
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That's pretty damned cynical, and also false. I've been gigging for free my entire life, because it's not always about the money. I actually love to play and will do it for free. Because I love to play, and because it isn't always about the money.
My band hasn't gigged since February because of COVID lockdowns and shit, but I keep on gigging for free because it isn't always about the money.
I’m not sure he’s saying that Mike only plays music because of money. Even your own example though that you gig for free. If another band came to you and said they’d been offered a record deal and do you want to come play with them and get paid, I’m guessing you would if the money was right.
That’s the thing, Mike was in DT and was making a decent living but then one of the biggest metal bands in the world come along and he thinks that they want him to be their new drummer. He then leaves DT to join this huge band and they say “whoa, slow down there buddy, why are you putting press releases out? No one offered you the gig full time, we haven’t decided what we’re doing yet”. In that moment though, they did decide. They decided they didn’t want this old attention seeking guy, they didn’t want to be “Avenged Sevenfold featuring the incredible Mike Portnoy” they just wanted a new guy to come in quietly, settle in and become a member of the band. Mike then tries to run back to DT and they say, “no chance dude, you bailed on us to join another band”.
I just take exception to any statement which includes "everything is always..." because absolutes like that are rarely true, so why even say it, let alone emphasize it by bolding it multiple times? And saying "everything is always about the money" is just plain false. There are countless things in life that are not "about the money", and music in particular is most definitely not "always about the money".
Even your explanation supports that. Avenged Sevenfold was big at the time, sure, but bigger than Dream Theater? Would leaving Dream Theater to tour with A7X have been so much more money that the guy who credits himself with actually founding the band would choose to leave it? I just don't see it. He left because he was getting burnt out with DT and needed a break, and A7X seemed to be offerring him that break, something different and exciting. I have no idea how much money he would have made with them compared to Dream Theater, but I just don't think it was the money. Therefore "everything is always about the money" is false. When you posit an absolute, a single counterexample is all you need to prove it false.
Even when my band was gigging, making pretty good money for a while, I was still in church every Sunday morning, gigging for free. Because I love to play music. It is not about the money, and there's your counterexample.
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I know people with real OCD. He doesn’t have OCD, he’s just a control freak.
As someone who is treated for and takes meds for OCD.. it was would be impossible for you to know this.
A person can be doing compulsive rituals in their head and you would have literally no idea it was going on.
Ok - but does Portnoy exhibit any characteristics / symptoms of genuine OCD - beyond his penchant for collecting ?
If you met me in person you would have zero clue that I had ocd. I’m doing shit in my head that nobody knows about and never would. Anyways, there’s a ton of reading material online about ocd if you’re interested but I’m sure most peops want to talk music here haha. So I’ll just leave it by saying that unless you’re a close personal friend of Portnoy’s it would be impossible to know if he truly was suffering from a mental disorder.
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That's pretty damned cynical, and also false. I've been gigging for free my entire life, because it's not always about the money. I actually love to play and will do it for free. Because I love to play, and because it isn't always about the money.
My band hasn't gigged since February because of COVID lockdowns and shit, but I keep on gigging for free because it isn't always about the money.
I’m not sure he’s saying that Mike only plays music because of money. Even your own example though that you gig for free. If another band came to you and said they’d been offered a record deal and do you want to come play with them and get paid, I’m guessing you would if the money was right.
That’s the thing, Mike was in DT and was making a decent living but then one of the biggest metal bands in the world come along and he thinks that they want him to be their new drummer. He then leaves DT to join this huge band and they say “whoa, slow down there buddy, why are you putting press releases out? No one offered you the gig full time, we haven’t decided what we’re doing yet”. In that moment though, they did decide. They decided they didn’t want this old attention seeking guy, they didn’t want to be “Avenged Sevenfold featuring the incredible Mike Portnoy” they just wanted a new guy to come in quietly, settle in and become a member of the band. Mike then tries to run back to DT and they say, “no chance dude, you bailed on us to join another band”.
I just take exception to any statement which includes "everything is always..." because absolutes like that are rarely true, so why even say it, let alone emphasize it by bolding it multiple times? And saying "everything is always about the money" is just plain false. There are countless things in life that are not "about the money", and music in particular is most definitely not "always about the money".
Even your explanation supports that. Avenged Sevenfold was big at the time, sure, but bigger than Dream Theater? Would leaving Dream Theater to tour with A7X have been so much more money that the guy who credits himself with actually founding the band would choose to leave it? I just don't see it. He left because he was getting burnt out with DT and needed a break, and A7X seemed to be offerring him that break, something different and exciting. I have no idea how much money he would have made with them compared to Dream Theater, but I just don't think it was the money. Therefore "everything is always about the money" is false. When you posit an absolute, a single counterexample is all you need to prove it false.
Even when my band was gigging, making pretty good money for a while, I was still in church every Sunday morning, gigging for free. Because I love to play music. It is not about the money, and there's your counterexample.
Fair enough, that’s cool. Just quickly on your question about whether A7X were bigger than DT though, the answer to that is a resounding yes. They are one of a very few current bands that you see headline a major metal festival. It’s largely Iron Maiden, Metallica, Slipknot, Tool and A7X. DT are not in that league.
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Fair enough, that’s cool. Just quickly on your question about whether A7X were bigger than DT though, the answer to that is a resounding yes. They are one of a very few current bands that you see headline a major metal festival. It’s largely Iron Maiden, Metallica, Slipknot, Tool and A7X. DT are not in that league.
I won't argue that this is the case now, nor would I argue that this was the case in North America back in 2010, but was that the case in all other parts of the world in 2010? AFAIK (I'm not from there, so my knowledge is limited), DT was still pretty big in Europe, Asia and South America, and I would imagine they held their own against A7X in those territories back then. Was A7X significantly bigger than DT in those territories back then?
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It might simply be a lack of venues, but Iron Maiden, Dream Theater and A7X always played the same basket venue in Milan. Of course Iron Maiden would sell it out in 2 days most, while DT would always have empty spaces here and there, but the venue was the same, DT never needed in 20 years to scale down.
More generally, a band like DT always goes good in Europe, of course we'd have to define "good" by looking at actual ticket sales, attendance over the years etc etc but the kind of stuff that DT does is always welcomed in Europe without dramatic swifts in attendance. They have a safe home over this side of the ocean, of course case by case and nation by nation it might go slightly better or slightly worse, but I don't think DT's tour manager, on broad terms, has to worry "geez what to do with Germany and Italy this time around?":... there's always a good market for them.
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Fair enough, that’s cool. Just quickly on your question about whether A7X were bigger than DT though, the answer to that is a resounding yes. They are one of a very few current bands that you see headline a major metal festival. It’s largely Iron Maiden, Metallica, Slipknot, Tool and A7X. DT are not in that league.
I won't argue that this is the case now, nor would I argue that this was the case in North America back in 2010, but was that the case in all other parts of the world in 2010? AFAIK (I'm not from there, so my knowledge is limited), DT was still pretty big in Europe, Asia and South America, and I would imagine they held their own against A7X in those territories back then. Was A7X significantly bigger than DT in those territories back then?
They headlined the main stage of the first night of Download festival in the U.K. on the next tour after Portnoy was let go. I think Dream Theater may have headlined the second stage once at their absolute height of popularity (BC&SL era) but nowhere near a main stage headliner. I would agree that, maybe in 2010, they hadn’t yet hit their peak in the U.K. and Europe and maybe were playing similar venues to DT but they were still a band who were a big deal, who had big label support, had proper music videos, radio airplay and hit singles. DT were, and remain, a cult band with a fiercely loyal fan base but they always had a certain ceiling which A7X did not have. It definitely felt like a step up for Portnoy from DT to A7X.
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Maybe a step up in popularity - but a huge step down in songwriting.
Even if MP did join Avenged as a full time member - I can't imagine him NOT trying to muscle in on everything and be the frontperson and handle all the decisions just like he did in DT.
I can't see him being JUST the drummer in a full time band.
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I would agree that, maybe in 2010, they hadn’t yet hit their peak in the U.K. and Europe and maybe were playing similar venues to DT but they were still a band who were a big deal, who had big label support, had proper music videos, radio airplay and hit singles.
No argument there. But that's the thing, we have to look at things from the standpoint of summer 2010, not what we know came after.
DT were, and remain, a cult band with a fiercely loyal fan base but they always had a certain ceiling which A7X did not have. It definitely felt like a step up for Portnoy from DT to A7X.
I won't argue with you, but there's always the outside chance that DT could break that ceiling. Not likely, but not impossible either, as PMU proved all those years ago.
But regardless, the big reason why MP wanted to make the move was because they were a newer band with younger guys and it was all very exciting to him, as opposed to the old established relationships he had with the DT guys. And to an extent, he has said as much about why he stepped away from DT, even if he didn't specifically talk about wanting to join A7X. I will also reiterate again, this does nothing to prove that MP was wanting to make the move because of the money, or else I'm sure we would have seen him chasing after other big name gigs instead of continuing in the various bands and projects we have seen him in. Perfect example would be Nuno Bettencourt who played with Rhianna. You can be sure Nuno made a lot more cash in that gig than he did with Extreme, and with MP having made a name for himself in the music industry, he could've done something similar if money was the overriding motive.
Even if MP did join Avenged as a full time member - I can't imagine him NOT trying to muscle in on everything and be the frontperson and handle all the decisions just like he did in DT.
I disagree. Consider all the bands he's been in since he left DT. With the exception of SoA where it was stated outright that he and DS would be the decision makers in the band, MP has not been THE decision maker or frontman for any of those bands. And these are all bands that he has been in from the beginning. Plus with them being lower key bands, it would be much easier for him to muscle his way in on everything if he wanted to, yet he has not.
Now consider that A7X is a band that already was established long before he joined them, which he was very well aware of. Perhaps in time he could have become an equal partner in the band, but in no way would he have ever tried to take over everything. The other guys would've never stood for it, and MP would have known that.
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Ok - but does Portnoy exhibit any characteristics / symptoms of genuine OCD - beyond his penchant for collecting ?
There's a "making of" video, either BC&SL or SC, where MP and JP signed a "contract" (just something silly on a piece of paper and not legally binding in any way, just for fun) that this part they were working on would sound like "this", and they both signed it, but then MP just couldn't handle it and reneged cuz he absolutely had to have it sound like "that"... and so they ended up going with "that".
It's a pretty solid example of how MP would, by his own admission, always get his way due to his OCD-like trait.
But I can't find the video, maybe someone else can or at least remembers this happening.
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A7X guitarist Gate's gave a statement to the effect..."Mike is a great guy and great drummer and we consider him family, but he's MIKE PORTNOY....a well established drummer and he makes a lot of money. More than we can afford right now."
None of us will ever know the totality of what went down amid the whole MP leaving saga. Money may not have been the primary concern but it was certainly a factor.
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Ok - but does Portnoy exhibit any characteristics / symptoms of genuine OCD - beyond his penchant for collecting ?
There's a "making of" video, either BC&SL or SC, where MP and JP signed a "contract" (just something silly on a piece of paper and not legally binding in any way, just for fun) that this part they were working on would sound like "this", and they both signed it, but then MP just couldn't handle it and reneged cuz he absolutely had to have it sound like "that"... and so they ended up going with "that".
It's a pretty solid example of how MP would, by his own admission, always get his way due to his OCD-like trait.
But I can't find the video, maybe someone else can or at least remembers this happening.
I have seen this exact video. I always cited it as an example of MP being a control freak - not OCD.
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A7X guitarist Gate's gave a statement to the effect..."Mike is a great guy and great drummer and we consider him family, but he's MIKE PORTNOY....a well established drummer and he makes a lot of money. More than we can afford right now."
None of us will ever know the totality of what went down amid the whole MP leaving saga. Money may not have been the primary concern but it was certainly a factor.
Didn’t he also say something to the effect that they didn’t want to become A7X and Mike Portnoy and they weren’t keen on Mike’s penchant for press releases and putting everything out in public.
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Ok - but does Portnoy exhibit any characteristics / symptoms of genuine OCD - beyond his penchant for collecting ?
There's a "making of" video, either BC&SL or SC, where MP and JP signed a "contract" (just something silly on a piece of paper and not legally binding in any way, just for fun) that this part they were working on would sound like "this", and they both signed it, but then MP just couldn't handle it and reneged cuz he absolutely had to have it sound like "that"... and so they ended up going with "that".
It's a pretty solid example of how MP would, by his own admission, always get his way due to his OCD-like trait.
But I can't find the video, maybe someone else can or at least remembers this happening.
I have seen this exact video. I always cited it as an example of MP being a control freak - not OCD.
Yeah, there’s a world of difference between being a perfectionist or always having to get your own way and having a genuine crippling mental illness like OCD.
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Didn’t he also say something to the effect that they didn’t want to become A7X and Mike Portnoy and they weren’t keen on Mike’s penchant for press releases and putting everything out in public.
And also that Mike said he actually quit DT to join Avenged full time and they told him that wasn't the deal. Then Mike realised he didn't have EITHER band - hence
" I'll come back to DT " for the fans "..." even though DT had just finished all the legal and paperwork to get Mangini installed as a new member...
and his " You can't trust anyone anymore " tweet.
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Yeah, but we shouldn't say it out lout. We're supposed to agree with the rewritten history.
As far as the bit with the contract goes, that is part of the making of Systematic chaos. I think they were working on Prophets of war.
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I'm confused about something - I always saw interviews with MP where he stated that he definitely was not a member of Avenged and he was just helping some friends out. Did he confirm that he actually left DT for Avenged?
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I'm confused about something - I always saw interviews with MP where he stated that he definitely was not a member of Avenged and he was just helping some friends out. Did he confirm that he actually left DT for Avenged?
He obviously never said that (the bolded) but: 1. it was heavily implied and 2. the Avenged guys actually said that (or something like that).
What one of the A7X members said back then was that when Mike quit DT, he told them something like "I quit the band, so I can be with you guys now", they were like "no way", and he was like "but I already put out my press release". And that's when this happened:
Didn’t he also say something to the effect that they didn’t want to become A7X and Mike Portnoy and they weren’t keen on Mike’s penchant for press releases and putting everything out in public.
And also that Mike said he actually quit DT to join Avenged full time and they told him that wasn't the deal. Then Mike realised he didn't have EITHER band - hence
" I'll come back to DT " for the fans "..." even though DT had just finished all the legal and paperwork to get Mangini installed as a new member...
and his " You can't trust anyone anymore " tweet.
He always publicly said one thing, but he could've been wishing for something else. And, btw, I don't think it was "bad", he clearly did what he felt right to do, the thing is that he acted assuming stuff (that he was going to be asked full time into A7X) instead of seeing the big picture, and acted without thinking it twice. The end result? He gambled and lost, and I think we can all relate to that or have been guilty of that at one point or another.
What I do think he did wrong is that he started his passive-aggressive blame game instead of owning his mistake and telling it like it was.
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I know i'm not the biggest fan of MP on the boards ** ( but ironically - he was my fave member of the band until the split and he revealed his true beard colours )...
But after that whole business - people kept noticing that he would "like" Facebook posts that were anti-Labrie, and RT and like any anti-Labrie tweets.
Then when confronted about it - he did his usual " *I* didn't say that ! : ) " - even though agreeing with something is the same as saying it.
** it should be noted that i've listened to ALL of his post DT work and I really *wanted* to enjoy Sons Of Apollo - but then we know what happened there with him and DS...
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Yeah - that's why I say that after the initial shock of him leaving, the band saw this as an opportunity to 'cleanse the palate' so to speak.
BTW - thanks for the clarification.
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A7X guitarist Gate's gave a statement to the effect..."Mike is a great guy and great drummer and we consider him family, but he's MIKE PORTNOY....a well established drummer and he makes a lot of money. More than we can afford right now."
None of us will ever know the totality of what went down amid the whole MP leaving saga. Money may not have been the primary concern but it was certainly a factor.
That is interesting. I always thought Avenged Sevenfold was making more money than Dream Theater back then.
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A7X guitarist Gate's gave a statement to the effect..."Mike is a great guy and great drummer and we consider him family, but he's MIKE PORTNOY....a well established drummer and he makes a lot of money. More than we can afford right now."
None of us will ever know the totality of what went down amid the whole MP leaving saga. Money may not have been the primary concern but it was certainly a factor.
That is interesting. I always thought Avenged Sevenfold was making more money than Dream Theater back then.
Wouldn't the amount of money a band would make depend on the deal they have with their record company?
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And if they're on a major or independent label.
Obviously majors take a bigger cut - but we learned in my music degree business lessons just how much the majors wring you out.
I don't know what it's like these days but typically - any royalties you make from your first two albums goes right back to the label
to pay them back for all your advances. Sometimes major label bands don't get any royalties til album #3 and that's why
some bands don't last that long.
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I think saying “we couldn’t afford someone of the calibre of the amazing Mike Portnoy” is perhaps them being kind and diplomatic rather than saying “we didn’t want Mike Portnoy.”
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But my PRESS RELEASE.....
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Anyone else hear bootlegs of them doing Fatal Tragedy with him singing “you can eat ass and balls” in the chorus? That was....interesting.
There's a version of As I Am like that as well.
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Ok - but does Portnoy exhibit any characteristics / symptoms of genuine OCD - beyond his penchant for collecting ?
There's a "making of" video, either BC&SL or SC, where MP and JP signed a "contract" (just something silly on a piece of paper and not legally binding in any way, just for fun) that this part they were working on would sound like "this", and they both signed it, but then MP just couldn't handle it and reneged cuz he absolutely had to have it sound like "that"... and so they ended up going with "that".
It's a pretty solid example of how MP would, by his own admission, always get his way due to his OCD-like trait.
But I can't find the video, maybe someone else can or at least remembers this happening.
I have seen this exact video. I always cited it as an example of MP being a control freak - not OCD.
Yeah, there’s a world of difference between being a perfectionist or always having to get your own way and having a genuine crippling mental illness like OCD.
Well, those things certainly aren't mutually exclusive, but there are plenty of other traits that MP has which support him having OCD, like having constantly rotating setlists while in DT (in which he would always pay attention to which cities had gotten which song to avoid repeats). There's the amount of official bootlegs he had released with DT, with the level of detail for providing backstory in each one's liner notes. Same goes with his dedication to preserving the making-of process for each DT album with his little documentaries, or his dedication to putting as much of his personal feelings & interests out there on his website/forum. There's also the multitude of other projects he's been involved in since leaving DT, a lot of which are pretty varied, & only a few of which he's stayed with for more than a few albums. All of these seem like signs that the guy's wheels are in constant motion, & that he's doing his best to channel those thoughts in an entertaining way. Those things aren't telltale proofs that he has OCD, but they do make it believable that he's telling the truth about it.
I also take a bit of issue with the implication that someone's mental condition has to be "crippling" for it to exist. For a lot of conditions, people who have learned to deal with them can function fine, but their condition can still affect how they perceive things. Many people with autism, for example, can still generally talk to people & achieve great things, but still have some irrational triggers that act up, or miss social cues that someone is trying to express, or have a niche interest that not many people see the appeal in. It still affects them, but that doesn't mean it has to cripple them beyond the point of being able to function. I imagine it's a similar case with OCD.
But really, all this is beside the biggest point, which is that none of us know MP, most of us aren't psychologists, & so, whether or not we think he really has OCD has no real value beyond childish rumours.
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I think saying “we couldn’t afford someone of the calibre of the amazing Mike Portnoy” is perhaps them being kind and diplomatic rather than saying “we didn’t want Mike Portnoy.”
I think you're right.
But my PRESS RELEASE.....
:lol
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I have seen this exact video. I always cited it as an example of MP being a control freak - not OCD.
It's a fine line between the two states of mind/personality and I think they go hand-in-hand.
There's being a perfectionist while also being able to compromise and then there's being unable or willing to compromise cuz you just *have* to have your way and I believe MP is the "must have it my way at all costs" which pushes it more towards the OCD side.
There's also his self-admitted bullying tone of wearing-down the guys until he gets his way and that's not cool.
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Anyone else hear bootlegs of them doing Fatal Tragedy with him singing “you can eat ass and balls” in the chorus? That was....interesting.
There's a version of As I Am like that as well.
Happened at a show of mine once as well :xbones
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I think saying “we couldn’t afford someone of the calibre of the amazing Mike Portnoy” is perhaps them being kind and diplomatic rather than saying “we didn’t want Mike Portnoy.”
That was pretty much how I always took it. I don't think they meant that they literally could not "afford" him. But that being said, that doesn't mean that finances weren't a part of the decision. There are a lot of things that could have weighed in on the financial side of things. Yes, they were a bigger band than DT. They sold more albums than DT were selling, could book more tour dates, and could play bigger venues. That all means more money coming into the band than DT would gross during an album/tour cycle. But I am careful to use the word gross. We don't know what the net would be, per member. Bigger label means bigger label cut. Bigger stage production means a LOT more expense that comes off the top before members see a dime from touring (remember--when a band plays a tour date, it's not like they get "X dollars per ticket sold"--they get paid a negotiated flat fee that takes into account a LOT of money coming right off the top that the band never even sees). And as far as just being "the drummer," I obviously don't know how A7X has structured its member contracts, but it would not surprise me if the drummer they brought in is a full member, but perhaps does not have a salary bonus schedule that is equal to the other members of the band. In other words, the drummer probably gets paid less than M. Shadows, Synyster Gates, and Zacky Vengeance (who are all founding members). And in terms of writing credits, a lot of drummers in a lot of bands typically aren't considered primary songwriters for most songs, and thus do not get songwriting royalties. It would not surprise me that they were looking for someone who would not come in and take a cut of that, which likely would not have been the case with MP. But in any case, even if I am off on some of the specifics, which I undoubtedly am, the general point is that I am pretty confident they could have found a way to make it work financially and still have everyone make a lot of money, but it wasn't really the financial model they were looking for to have a big name drummer/songwriter step in.
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I think MP was seeking that camaraderie that he was feeling with Transatlantic and Avenged Sevenfold at the time, that he wasn't feeling with DT at the time, but used to. I don't know how popular A7F was/is outside of the US, but DT are/were pretty popular outside the US when Portnoy was in the band so I can't imagine it was all about the money. Sure, A7F had a few hits on US radio, unlike DT, but radio was already on its way out as a place to hear the newest biggest rock hits in the late 2000s. The public image was that JP/JR/MP was the core and they had the camaraderie, but JM was the quiet guy, and there seemed to be some rift between MP and JLB, the lead singer. That's not a great situation to return to after recording and touring with TA and A7F, having a blast, everyone getting along, etc...
Whatever the reasons for leaving, I still feel the band was always better with Portnoy. He kept the band grounded, gave them street 'cred, but towards the end they didn't sound as fresh as they once were, so a hiatus would have been musically beneficial for all involved. Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
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Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
Ah that'll be why they only have one song over 13 minutes since Portnoy left.
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Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
Ah that'll be why they only have one song over 13 minutes since Portnoy left.
I think some tracks on DoT could have benefited from being fleshed out more, particularly AWE and PBD.
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Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
I don't understand this either. It's not like they became Animals as Leaders or a super complex djent core whatever band. There's lots and lots of melodies, slow sections, ballads... you get the idea.There's much more technical prog metal in the 2000s albums with MP than the MM era albums.
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Yeah if anything Distance Over Time is their most straightforward album in a long time.
Also Octavarium was not very proggy and technical until maybe the last two songs ?
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Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
I don't understand this either. It's not like they became Animals as Leaders or a super complex djent core whatever band. There's lots and lots of melodies, slow sections, ballads... you get the idea.There's much more technical prog metal in the 2000s albums with MP than the MM era albums.
The slower sections/songs seem disingenuous, and seem to rarely flow well from more complex sections. Songs like Illumination Theory are the biggest culprits, or shorter ones like Barstool Warrior. If it's a ballad type, that might be the one thing they seem to do well in the modern era. I like This Is The Life, and Out of Reach, but way too much of it on TA to the point of boredom.
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Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
I don't understand this either. It's not like they became Animals as Leaders or a super complex djent core whatever band. There's lots and lots of melodies, slow sections, ballads... you get the idea.There's much more technical prog metal in the 2000s albums with MP than the MM era albums.
Yeah... MP left and they are now a bunch of nerds with no soul. :rollin
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Whatever the reasons for leaving, I still feel the band was always better with Portnoy. He kept the band grounded, gave them street 'cred, but towards the end they didn't sound as fresh as they once were, so a hiatus would have been musically beneficial for all involved. Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
Not sure what you've been listening to, but it isn't DT.
If anything, a lot of their material released since MP left is LESS technical.
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Whatever the reasons for leaving, I still feel the band was always better with Portnoy. He kept the band grounded, gave them street 'cred, but towards the end they didn't sound as fresh as they once were, so a hiatus would have been musically beneficial for all involved. Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
Not sure what you've been listening to, but it isn't DT.
If anything, a lot of their material released since MP left is LESS technical.
This. This. This.
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Whatever the reasons for leaving, I still feel the band was always better with Portnoy. He kept the band grounded, gave them street 'cred, but towards the end they didn't sound as fresh as they once were, so a hiatus would have been musically beneficial for all involved. Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
Not sure what you've been listening to, but it isn't DT.
If anything, a lot of their material released since MP left is LESS technical.
The only songs in the Mangini era that I would consider to be technical above all else are Pale Blue Dot, Enigma Machine, and maybe Breaking All Illusions. But a song being very technical doesn't bother me in any way, especially because I love the songs that I just listed.
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The only songs in the Mangini era that I would consider to be technical above all else are Pale Blue Dot, Enigma Machine, and maybe Breaking All Illusions.
I'd say LNF, Outcry and IT would fit that category too.
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The only songs in the Mangini era that I would consider to be technical above all else are Pale Blue Dot, Enigma Machine, and maybe Breaking All Illusions.
I'd say LNF, Outcry and IT would fit that category too.
I agree with this.
S2N has some hinky shit in it as well. But the "Whoa" kind of disqualifies it.
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Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
No offence! :rollin
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The only songs in the Mangini era that I would consider to be technical above all else are Pale Blue Dot, Enigma Machine, and maybe Breaking All Illusions.
I'd say LNF, Outcry and IT would fit that category too.
I wouldn't say Illumination Theory. The instrumental section in The Pursuit of Truth is rather technical, sure, but I don't think I could say that about the rest of the song.
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Well the absence of MP is felt from a producer standpoint, with the good and bad that comes with it.
I think sometimes MP would insist on revisiting riffs or sections in a song, ultimately making the songs longer (like ANTR), but also seemed to have a great sense of progginess and epicness in terms of making decisions like this cohesive, and using clever ways to utilize ideas in a song. This is still done, but to a lesser degree.
On the other hand, JP now steers the ship, and i think he has a soft spot for some cheesy elements, which i feel all over the last few albums (more than in the past). Also he tends to not reuse riffs and ideas a lot, so you get more condensed songs but packed with lots of different ideas.
What i think is a key element in the sound that has made some people dislike MM (apart from fanboyism) is his different sense of rhythm, tight hi-hat sounds and playing, and also his much more sparse usage of the crash cymbals compared to MP. That can be felt also in the live versions of older songs (if you listen to ITPOE on the new live album once it comes out you'll get what i'm saying).
Technicality is definitely there, might be more subdued or not as "in your face", but we've had some crazy stuff in the past albums. The funny thing is that MM's playing and interpretation of rhythm at points sounds simple, but is complex as hell to pull off. And that speaks volumes about his talent.
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The only thing missing without Portnoy is the clarity of the production.
It was very noticeable on A Dramatic Turn Of Events. You have to wonder - how did Petrucci not remember what he did the last 6 times ?!
Almost every album from Scenes until and including Octavarium sounded mostly great.
Dream Theater was a little better but was marred by that awful snare sound.
The Astonishing was a huge step up for me ** - and Distance Over Time could have been from the golden era ( Scenes - Octavarium ) sonically - just a little hotter is all.
Come to think of it - the only way i'd want Portnoy back in the DT camp is as co-producer - and that's it.
** The first time I heard The Gift Of Music - I remember thinking it sounded like it had come straight off Six Degrees - like About To Crash.
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The only thing missing without Portnoy is the clarity of the production.
It was very noticeable on A Dramatic Turn Of Events. You have to wonder - how did Petrucci not remember what he did the last 6 times ?!
Almost every album from Scenes until and including Octavarium sounded mostly great.
Dream Theater was a little better but was marred by that awful snare sound.
The Astonishing was a huge step up for me ** - and Distance Over Time could have been from the golden era ( Scenes - Octavarium ) sonically - just a little hotter is all.
Come to think of it - the only way i'd want Portnoy back in the DT camp is as co-producer - and that's it.
** The first time I heard The Gift Of Music - I remember thinking it sounded like it had come straight off Six Degrees - like About To Crash.
Well, co-producer doesn't mean only sonic decisions. And we have to give credit to MP for having a consistently good drum and cymbal sound, on pretty much all the records he's been involved in. While MM i feel only after Breaking The 4th Wall has been sounding good, the only other album i find his sound good is Elements Of Persuasion. Distance over Time (and the new live album) seem to be moving in a good direction on that front.
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I totally get you, OP.
I grew apart from DT ever since TOT came out. Not that I didn't like it; who doesn't like good metal, right? But I just wasn't feeling the direction they were swerving in. I never felt LaBrie had the heavy metal type of voice, either. Probably my least go-to albums are SC and BCSL. I grew up listening to Images and Words, Awake, Falling into Infinity, SFAM, and Six Degrees. What came later didn't really fit my musical taste, except from some Octavarium songs. As you mentioned, the fire started to rekindle once DT14 came out. But then was disappointed again with TA.
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What i think is a key element in the sound that has made some people dislike MM (apart from fanboyism) is his different sense of rhythm, tight hi-hat sounds and playing, and also his much more sparse usage of the crash cymbals compared to MP. That can be felt also in the live versions of older songs (if you listen to ITPOE on the new live album once it comes out you'll get what i'm saying).
That's Mangini's drum style though, totally different than Portnoy.
The cymbals though, is what I noticed mainly in some songs like Scarred, and Hell's Kitchen. Those songs I wish he would stay to Portnoys Drums as composed on the album. Those songs call for Cymbals.
The Mangini Era songs, I appreciate the change in Drumming he brought. He is doing things that we would never hear from Portnoy, and make the songs have this distinct vibe, it's almost like the Drums get lost because they follow the music so well, they blend in with the sound and help emphasize that sound. It's why, whomever made the decison, chose to experiment with his snare and see if lowering it would actually work. It did in some songs (The Enemy Inside, The Bigger Picture) and didn't in others (Along For The Ride, The Looking Glass).
D/T has the best DT drum sound, since the Portnoy albums. And that could be because Mangini raised his cymbals. We can hear them better now.
Remember, Mangini already had a Drumkit built to his liking, one that he couldn't find a band to use it in, until he got the call. Now he is able to use it, and found out how it sounds recorded on ADTOE, and what he can change to make it sounds more clearer, The Cymbals were low in the mix and hard to hear, and could be because of the placement, and blend of the other drums sounds bleeding in.
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There are drummers far less studious about their kit and playing than Mangini who somehow end up sounding better. I'm aware that it's probably a matter of twiddling a few knobs and everyone making sure those knobs get twiddled (and probably sacrificing other things in the balance of the mix). MP always made sure of that and had that massive sound. Kind of unfair that everyone just prefers the guy who sounds like he hits harder, but that's just the way it is.
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As i'm sure most drummers will tell you - hitting the kit as hard as you humanly can - does NOT make them sound better. If anything they sound more choked.
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As i'm sure most drummers will tell you - hitting the kit as hard as you humanly can - does NOT make them sound better. If anything they sound more choked.
That is very true. I know from personal experience.
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As i'm sure most drummers will tell you - hitting the kit as hard as you humanly can - does NOT make them sound better. If anything they sound more choked.
That is very true. I know from personal experience.
:hifive:
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Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
The Astonishing
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As i'm sure most drummers will tell you - hitting the kit as hard as you humanly can - does NOT make them sound better. If anything they sound more choked.
That is very true. I know from personal experience.
Okay, hits better* :)
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Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
The Astonishing
2 hours of Jordan playing slow, sad piano in between the technician music, and the Disney rip-offs.
I do like the first 3-4 tracks and the solo at the end of disc 1 that got cut short for no reason. Don't remember the name.
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Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
The Astonishing
2 hours of Jordan playing slow, sad piano in between the technician music, and the Disney rip-offs.
I do like the first 3-4 tracks and the solo at the end of disc 1 that got cut short for no reason. Don't remember the name.
You mean arguably the most, and almost only, true moment of "nerdy prog metal with no soul" on the entire album? :biggrin:
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All I can say is that whenever I'm in the mood for "nerdy prog metal", Dream Theater is one of the 1st bands that comes to mind -- all their albums. And they do it so brilliantly and smoothly I don't see how this qualification could EVER be used as a slight against their music. And "soul" is pretty subjective judgement that can mean a number of different things musically.
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Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
The Astonishing
2 hours of Jordan playing slow, sad piano in between the technician music, and the Disney rip-offs.
I do like the first 3-4 tracks and the solo at the end of disc 1 that got cut short for no reason. Don't remember the name.
You mean arguably the most, and almost only, true moment of "nerdy prog metal with no soul" on the entire album? :biggrin:
The problem with Mangini DT is there are lots of good ideas everywhere. It's the construction and execution I'm mainly critiquing and how it comes off to my ears. Yes, that solo section is boring despite JP playing a nice solo, and then it's cut short, it should have gone on for a few more minutes at least.
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MM's drum tone is FAR superior to MP's tone. I think he's accomplished what he set out to do during the drum auditions. But I will say this, MP's drums on Terminal Velocity sounded fantastic!
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Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
The Astonishing
2 hours of Jordan playing slow, sad piano in between the technician music, and the Disney rip-offs.
I do like the first 3-4 tracks and the solo at the end of disc 1 that got cut short for no reason. Don't remember the name.
It’s perfectly fine if you don’t like TA, but describing it as such out of spite is just silly. It’s by far DT’s less “technical” album with far more emphasis on melody and texture. I cannot imagine a DT with MP could’ve gone in such direction.
(I can smell the “that should have been better because it sucks lolol MP was the soul of the band and he knew best” comments a mile away, which makes DT music discussions kinda stale these days).
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Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
The Astonishing
2 hours of Jordan playing slow, sad piano in between the technician music, and the Disney rip-offs.
I do like the first 3-4 tracks and the solo at the end of disc 1 that got cut short for no reason. Don't remember the name.
It’s perfectly fine if you don’t like TA, but describing it as such out of spite is just silly. It’s by far DT’s less “technical” album with far more emphasis on melody and texture. I cannot imagine a DT with MP could’ve gone in such direction.
(I can smell the “that should have been better because it sucks lolol MP was the soul of the band and he knew best” comments a mile away, which makes DT music discussions kinda stale these days).
They're still Bitter. :lol
That's all on them...
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They're still Bitter. :lol
They are :biggrin:
Meanwhile, DT are currently working on album 5 with MM :metal
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Now, it's a bunch of nerds playing nerdy prog-metal with no soul, no offense. It's all technician music. Just not my thing.
The Astonishing
2 hours of Jordan playing slow, sad piano in between the technician music, and the Disney rip-offs.
I do like the first 3-4 tracks and the solo at the end of disc 1 that got cut short for no reason. Don't remember the name.
It’s perfectly fine if you don’t like TA, but describing it as such out of spite is just silly. It’s by far DT’s less “technical” album with far more emphasis on melody and texture. I cannot imagine a DT with MP could’ve gone in such direction.
(I can smell the “that should have been better because it sucks lolol MP was the soul of the band and he knew best” comments a mile away, which makes DT music discussions kinda stale these days).
I wonder if Petrucci eventually would've made it into a side project. He doesn't write much (if anything besides his very sporadic solo stuff) outside of Dream Theater but The Astonishing concept seemed important enough to him that I think he would've made it happen.
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I'm not bitter about MP leaving the band. I just don't find what they've done since to be anywhere on the level of what came before. Members of bands leave, the sound changes. A drummer is really key when it comes to how a band sounds. The other instrumentalists may be the ones coming up with the notes, the changes, composing, whatever it may be, but the drummer is responsible for what the overall sound is, and I don't find much to enjoy in MM's kit, whether it is on the studio albums or live. Yes, he has all the technical chops for a band like Dream Theater, there is no doubt, I don't even resent Mangini, but his ability is too good, and he's the best technical player in the band now. To me, that means the soul is missing, when Mangini lays back, it's boring, he plays it almost too straight, he sounds like a drum machine. He doesn't throw in fills a whole lot or accent anything. Sometimes MP over did the whole big drum roll into the beginning of a verse thing, but he still kept the lighter music more interesting throughout. It is possible that another drummer may have been better for the band. However, I don't think the split should have happened in the first place. I wouldn't have been as upset at an announcement of a hiatus as I was when MP announced he was leaving DT. As much as I loved and still do like BC&SL, those last 2 MP albums were also seeing the band starting to slip.
As for the rest of the band, I've made this comment before, JP, JR, and JM needed someone like MP to help bring the music down from alien music and bring it down to the human level so us mere mortals could process the music. Without him, I get this sense of "we can whatever we want now" not that they couldn't before, but it's a feeling I can't shake since they seem to go a bit nuts on the technical stuff, or the odd time signatures that don't feel like they flow right. Instead of aging gracefully, I feel like the band has gradually become a quasi-mainstream rock/metal band that can also do all these musical acrobatic stunts. Most of their songs have started sounding the same 3 or 4 albums ago. With Dream Theater you used to be able to expect a wide variety or a focused them with many diverse and dynamic sounds. And it was always a great balance of prog rock and prog metal. Since ADTOE, and really since Systematic Chaos, they have been a heavy metal band first that also does some prog-metal stuff as well, did an album mixing in some Broadway inspired stuff, but very little prog/prog rock to my ears. Other than that, they've had the same sound for 4 albums in a row now. That's not Dream Theater to me.
I wonder if Petrucci eventually would've made it into a side project. He doesn't write much (if anything besides his very sporadic solo stuff) outside of Dream Theater but The Astonishing concept seemed important enough to him that I think he would've made it happen.
The Astonishing should have been presented as a John Petrucci & Jordan Rudess production, featuring the members of Dream Theater. I wouldn't be so hard on it if they had done that.
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I wonder if Petrucci eventually would've made it into a side project. He doesn't write much (if anything besides his very sporadic solo stuff) outside of Dream Theater but The Astonishing concept seemed important enough to him that I think he would've made it happen.
The Astonishing should have been presented as a John Petrucci & Jordan Rudess production, featuring the members of Dream Theater. I wouldn't be so hard on it if they had done that.
This would've made sense seeing as how the other members had next to nothing to do with the writing of the album which is non-standard operating procedure for Dream Theater. I'm not a big fan of The Astonishing. It was a great departure from what we're used to but it wasn't so alien that it sounded nothing like Dream Theater. Ultimately, any band can release whatever music they want under their band name.
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+1 on TA being the antithesis of the "bruh DT has no feel" argument. If anything, people hate it for having too much feel & not enough technical stuff. :lol
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I wonder if Petrucci eventually would've made it into a side project. He doesn't write much (if anything besides his very sporadic solo stuff) outside of Dream Theater but The Astonishing concept seemed important enough to him that I think he would've made it happen.
The Astonishing should have been presented as a John Petrucci & Jordan Rudess production, featuring the members of Dream Theater. I wouldn't be so hard on it if they had done that.
This would've made sense seeing as how the other members had next to nothing to do with the writing of the album which is non-standard operating procedure for Dream Theater. I'm not a big fan of The Astonishing. It was a great departure from what we're used to but it wasn't so alien that it sounded nothing like Dream Theater. Ultimately, any band can release whatever music they want under their band name.
Sounds like "Black Sabbath featuring Tony Iommi" to my ears.
It isn't a smart ideia IMO.
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I just want to say that reading Herrick's and darkshade's post, I feel the exact same way. Especially the point they make about TA..I had the exact same thoughts about it..I mentioned this before, as a project and effort I totally respect it and some of the musical themes are honestly great..but it really did more harm than good in the end..
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I just want to say that reading Herrick's and darkshade's post, I feel the exact same way. Especially the point they make about TA..I had the exact same thoughts about it..I mentioned this before, as a project and effort I totally respect it and some of the musical themes are honestly great..but it really did more harm than good in the end..
I understand it would have been received better...But why should he have to present it that way?
No matter what it was released under, the fact is, it's still the same music, and band. And would be performed the same way it was presented live.
Do people care about Names so much that it distracts how they view the music being presented. I find that an odd way to think about music.
One reason I could see him not releasing it under that name is due to the logistical legalities involved in creating and releasing music. Releasing it under the DT name gives him more funding for the project than having to create an entirely new brand just for this concept. Releasing it under his John Petrucci solo brand wouldn't be given funds as he would have to look for a label, and all that fun legal stuff. Too much of a hassle, just to cater to the audience.
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I just want to say that reading Herrick's and darkshade's post, I feel the exact same way. Especially the point they make about TA..I had the exact same thoughts about it..I mentioned this before, as a project and effort I totally respect it and some of the musical themes are honestly great..but it really did more harm than good in the end..
I beg to differ here. How did it do any "harm"? To the band, it certainly didn't. We don't have any sales numbers per se, but the album did as well as it possibly could in its time with a tour that has been by far DT's most ambitious (and expensive) live adventure up to date. Most videos I've seen on YouTube of that tour have somewhat full venues, with an extremely cheerful and supporting audience. Also, they are all incredibly proud of the work, and as an artist that's basically the ultimate goal. That certainly doesn't sound too bad once you put it into words. Most people I know were incredibly satisfied with the Astonishing show, me included, so there's not much else to say in this regard.
Now, in what way could it "harm" the fanbase? That sounds like entitlement to me. As I stated before, it's perfectly fine if you don't like TA but the mere existence of that album contradicts the lingering argument of DT being a "soulless, technical band ever since MP left" because that album is absolutely everything but that. It's funny because I've been a member of this forum ever since 2004 (oh, that Octavarium forum) and in my 16 years of being here I've seen a myriad of comments along the lines of: "oh, I wish DT used more of Jordan's piano skills/oh, I wish DT stopped the wank in their instrumental sections and write melodically driven pieces of music/oh, I wish they wrote music that's more suited to JLB's strengths as a singer" and TA delivered absolutely all of that. Sure, maybe it's not what people expected out of such a project (I guess?) and that's OK, you just move on and stay with the DT music that resonates with you, but one thing is what you think about something and other thing is what that thing actually is.
And regarding the "TA should not have been a DT album" argument, that I find to be somewhat uncalled for. It's fairly romanticized that usually in the context of a band every song is going to have a little bit of everyone (compositionally speaking, of course) and that's not true, nor will it ever be. This album is as DT as Images and Words was, but I think it's the case of someone loving something so much that you usually get to a point of idealizing that thing so much that when it fails to meet your expectations of what "it should've been" you lash out as lots of people did with this album. That's OK, I guess, but basically the reason I don't post here much that often anymore.
Yeah, I sure love TA (it's a top 5 DT album for me) because I'm working nowadays as a media composer and this album is musically far closer to what I usually listen to in my every day (I've grown a little bit tired of the whole progressive metal world, but that's just me) but I admit it was not perfect. The visual delivery was very subpar (I hate the 3D models lol), and their whole visual design approach was mediocre at best (I still cringe when I see the font they used to write the names of the songs in their official YouTube videos) but the music is wonderful, and that to me is the most important thing.
Go on with your day, good folk. That was my possibly unpopular post on why TA was a good thing.
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I just want to say that reading Herrick's and darkshade's post, I feel the exact same way. Especially the point they make about TA..I had the exact same thoughts about it..I mentioned this before, as a project and effort I totally respect it and some of the musical themes are honestly great..but it really did more harm than good in the end..
And regarding the "TA should not have been a DT album" argument, that I find to be somewhat uncalled for. It's fairly romanticized that usually in the context of a band every song is going to have a little bit of everyone (compositionally speaking, of course) and that's not true, nor will it ever be. This album is as DT as Images and Words was, but I think it's the case of someone loving something so much that you usually get to a point of idealizing that thing so much that when it fails to meet your expectations of what "it should've been" you lash out as lots of people did with this album. That's OK, I guess, but basically the reason I don't post here much that often anymore.
I just want to clarify that I don't think The Astonishing should've been a side project. My point was that since the album was entirely written by Petrucci & Ruddess as opposed to all their other albums, it would've made sense if they decided to make it a side project. However, The Astonishing still sounds like Dream Theater to me so I don't have a problem with one way or the other.
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I'm not bitter about MP leaving the band. I just don't find what they've done since to be anywhere on the level of what came before. Members of bands leave, the sound changes. A drummer is really key when it comes to how a band sounds. The other instrumentalists may be the ones coming up with the notes, the changes, composing, whatever it may be, but the drummer is responsible for what the overall sound is, and I don't find much to enjoy in MM's kit, whether it is on the studio albums or live. Yes, he has all the technical chops for a band like Dream Theater, there is no doubt, I don't even resent Mangini, but his ability is too good, and he's the best technical player in the band now. To me, that means the soul is missing, when Mangini lays back, it's boring, he plays it almost too straight, he sounds like a drum machine. He doesn't throw in fills a whole lot or accent anything. Sometimes MP over did the whole big drum roll into the beginning of a verse thing, but he still kept the lighter music more interesting throughout. It is possible that another drummer may have been better for the band. However, I don't think the split should have happened in the first place. I wouldn't have been as upset at an announcement of a hiatus as I was when MP announced he was leaving DT. As much as I loved and still do like BC&SL, those last 2 MP albums were also seeing the band starting to slip.
As for the rest of the band, I've made this comment before, JP, JR, and JM needed someone like MP to help bring the music down from alien music and bring it down to the human level so us mere mortals could process the music. Without him, I get this sense of "we can whatever we want now" not that they couldn't before, but it's a feeling I can't shake since they seem to go a bit nuts on the technical stuff, or the odd time signatures that don't feel like they flow right. Instead of aging gracefully, I feel like the band has gradually become a quasi-mainstream rock/metal band that can also do all these musical acrobatic stunts. Most of their songs have started sounding the same 3 or 4 albums ago. With Dream Theater you used to be able to expect a wide variety or a focused them with many diverse and dynamic sounds. And it was always a great balance of prog rock and prog metal. Since ADTOE, and really since Systematic Chaos, they have been a heavy metal band first that also does some prog-metal stuff as well, did an album mixing in some Broadway inspired stuff, but very little prog/prog rock to my ears. Other than that, they've had the same sound for 4 albums in a row now. That's not Dream Theater to me.
I completely agree.
The leave of MP might have been good for the rest of the band since they seem to be comfortable with where they are right now and I´m happy to see that there isn´t much (if any) bad blood between MP and the rest of the guys. In the end that's what matters most for them.
As a fan on the other hand it didn't do any good for me. The MM albums are all among my least favorite DT-albums. Too predictive (TA excluded) without any of the Wow factor they had in the nineties and early twenties.
MP on the other hand contributed to a few great albums but the Neal Morse Band albums would probably have happend too if he was still in DT. Same maybe for the JP albums. I loved the TSF shows but that would also have happened with DT. The rest of his projects including TWD and SOA do basically nothing for me.
So yes, I can understand why they let MP go at that moment but for me it resulted in having less love and attention for the band in which I think MP was a key factor for all the reasons mentioned by others.
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I just want to say that reading Herrick's and darkshade's post, I feel the exact same way. Especially the point they make about TA..I had the exact same thoughts about it..I mentioned this before, as a project and effort I totally respect it and some of the musical themes are honestly great..but it really did more harm than good in the end..
I beg to differ here. How did it do any "harm"? To the band, it certainly didn't. We don't have any sales numbers per se, but the album did as well as it possibly could in its time with a tour that has been by far DT's most ambitious (and expensive) live adventure up to date. Most videos I've seen on YouTube of that tour have somewhat full venues, with an extremely cheerful and supporting audience. Also, they are all incredibly proud of the work, and as an artist that's basically the ultimate goal. That certainly doesn't sound too bad once you put it into words. Most people I know were incredibly satisfied with the Astonishing show, me included, so there's not much else to say in this regard.
Now, in what way could it "harm" the fanbase? That sounds like entitlement to me. As I stated before, it's perfectly fine if you don't like TA but the mere existence of that album contradicts the lingering argument of DT being a "soulless, technical band ever since MP left" because that album is absolutely everything but that. It's funny because I've been a member of this forum ever since 2004 (oh, that Octavarium forum) and in my 16 years of being here I've seen a myriad of comments along the lines of: "oh, I wish DT used more of Jordan's piano skills/oh, I wish DT stopped the wank in their instrumental sections and write melodically driven pieces of music/oh, I wish they wrote music that's more suited to JLB's strengths as a singer" and TA delivered absolutely all of that. Sure, maybe it's not what people expected out of such a project (I guess?) and that's OK, you just move on and stay with the DT music that resonates with you, but one thing is what you think about something and other thing is what that thing actually is.
And regarding the "TA should not have been a DT album" argument, that I find to be somewhat uncalled for. It's fairly romanticized that usually in the context of a band every song is going to have a little bit of everyone (compositionally speaking, of course) and that's not true, nor will it ever be. This album is as DT as Images and Words was, but I think it's the case of someone loving something so much that you usually get to a point of idealizing that thing so much that when it fails to meet your expectations of what "it should've been" you lash out as lots of people did with this album. That's OK, I guess, but basically the reason I don't post here much that often anymore.
Yeah, I sure love TA (it's a top 5 DT album for me) because I'm working nowadays as a media composer and this album is musically far closer to what I usually listen to in my every day (I've grown a little bit tired of the whole progressive metal world, but that's just me) but I admit it was not perfect. The visual delivery was very subpar (I hate the 3D models lol), and their whole visual design approach was mediocre at best (I still cringe when I see the font they used to write the names of the songs in their official YouTube videos) but the music is wonderful, and that to me is the most important thing.
Go on with your day, good folk. That was my possibly unpopular post on why TA was a good thing.
Great post! :clap:
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Measuring success is something very subjective, it clearly has to do with everyone's opinion of what they value to be a success..
We can argue about things like, who liked it and who didn't, if the shows were packed full of fans and if they made a considerably good profit out of a huge production..and we'll may never know that for sure...
The fact is that the TA has become the most controversial album in the band's catalog and it was the catalyst, not so the cause, of the way the band
reacted going in to write DoT..The way they wanted to make it a more collective experience, to make music and function again like a band,
to bond again and be 'brothers and musicians' as they said...that's what I meant about doing them harm..clearly for their sake they
seem be to a whole better place and personally I am very proud for them.
As for the music now, personally and I hate to repeat myself, I'm not the type of fan that constantly request how they should or shouldn't write nor do I ever was in the camp that said they lost their soul after MP left..
But there is a clear distinction about taking risks and be self aware about what your style as a band is.. Honestly it would be more appropriate Nightwish to have made an album like that than DT..
A good example of making a good story/concept with great music is Tyranny and V from Shadow Gallery. Great band by the way!
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Measuring success is something very subjective, it clearly has to do with everyone's opinion of what they value to be a success..
We can argue about things like, who liked it and who didn't, if the shows were packed full of fans and if they made a considerably good profit out of a huge production..and we'll may never know that for sure...
The fact is that the TA has become the most controversial album in the band's catalog and it was the catalyst, not so the cause, of the way the band
reacted going in to write DoT..The way they wanted to make it a more collective experience, to make music and function again like a band,
to bond again and be 'brothers and musicians' as they said...that's what I meant about doing them harm..clearly for their sake they
seem be to a whole better place and personally I am very proud for them.
As for the music now, personally and I hate to repeat myself, I'm not the type of fan that constantly request how they should or shouldn't write nor do I ever was in the camp that said they lost their soul after MP left..
But there is a clear distinction about taking risks and be self aware about what your style as a band is.. Honestly it would be more appropriate Nightwish to have made an album like that than DT..
A good example of making a good story/concept with great music is Tyranny and V from Shadow Gallery. Great band by the way!
A Band can do whatever the hell they want. It's the notion that a band HAS TO sound a certain way that makes it harder for Bands to write songs they might really want to make, but know the fans will never appreciate it. A certain sound and style can sell and make good money, It's what the Major Labels do all the time.
The band reacted to the FANS perception of The Astonishing. JP really pays attention to what the fans want, and gives in to demands. So, the next logical decision would be to have done exactly what they did with D/T, Prove to the fans they are still a group entity, MM even decided to write lyrics, and it developed into Room 137, even the Tempo is integral to the meaning of the song being in 137. I don't know if that was a demo MM brought it or not.
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Measuring success is something very subjective, it clearly has to do with everyone's opinion of what they value to be a success..
We can argue about things like, who liked it and who didn't, if the shows were packed full of fans and if they made a considerably good profit out of a huge production..and we'll may never know that for sure...
Agreed on this, and thus the first point of my post. As far as we can know and see, the tour did as fine as it could possibly do and the band is as happy as they possibly could be with the result of the album and the whole concept. If we like it or not, that's an entirely different story.
But the thing is, with art, is that it can be very divisive when it's being ambitious and bold. I do think TA has been the most ambitious and divisive album of their careers, but I'm happy it exists because it shows that DT is not always in a "we want to deliver the perfect DT album, with the right amount of heavy, progressive and melodic elements people love from Dream Theater" state of mind that they've basically done three times in the MM era (ADTOE/DT/DOT). I cannot fathom the idea that this album "harmed" DT when they have basically released 14 (I think?) albums that basically have something for everyone. It takes just a small dive into the history of art to see how, what we today consider as being masterpieces, were probably subjected to heavy criticism and rejection back on their day (I'm not saying TA is a timeless masterpiece lol, it's just a comparison to make my point clear).
Of course it's fine if you don't like TA or any other album, opinions are opinions and music is usually a very personal experience; as each one of us know what exactly is what we value the most on it; but fans can be so intense and vocal about their innermost thoughts that they usually spend quite an amount of energy criticizing what they hate and that's usually something that feels off and disengaging of any true and intelligent debate. I often times dream of a world where people don't need to be so expressively vocal and angry about the music they don't like, but that seems like a long shot lol.
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As far as The Astonishing goes. I was a big fan when it came out and have cooled a little on it over time although it’s been a long time since I listened to it. I knew the second I heard it though that it would be hugely divisive. My argument has always been that they should have prepared fans for what it was. If it was more “hey everyone, we’ve done a thing” and they then went on to say they’d written a musical theatre show. I don’t think it would have been received as harshly as it was as people would have known what was coming. However, because it was marketed as the new DT album (and a double disc concept album at that), it raised expectations to a ridiculously high level. People then threw the album on expecting an epic prog metal concept piece and instead got a Broadway/Disney style musical with some metal elements which sounded like nothing they’d ever done before.
I totally applaud JP for trying something completely different instead of just putting out a standard DT album and contend that there is some absolutely inspired stuff on there but he should have warned people what it was.
I disagree by the way that DOT was a reaction to the reception of The Astonishing. I think that was always intended to be something out of left field that JP largely did on his own. The album after was always going to be back to a normal DT record and I said that at the time. Maybe the whole, let’s all live and record together may have been throwing the other guys a bone a bit after he had total control on TA but don’t think it was due to fan’s reactions.
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I cannot fathom the idea that this album "harmed" DT when they have basically released 14 (I think?) albums that basically have something for everyone. It takes just a small dive into the history of art to see how, what we today consider as being masterpieces, were probably subjected to heavy criticism and rejection back on their day (I'm not saying TA is a timeless masterpiece lol, it's just a comparison to make my point clear).
I think it can to some degree. A significant enough misstep (which some attribute to TA) can be enough to lose a part of the fanbase that are not diehards. While you say that from all outward appearances the tour went great, I question that. I don't have time right now to compare the types of venues that DT was playing before, during and after the TA tour, but I think it's pretty telling that the band opted to drop 5 songs from TA so that they could shoe-horn in a 3 song encore of classics towards the end of the tour, and that the following 2 world tours both featured them playing "classic" albums from beginning to end as the second set - in particular during the last tour which should have been focused just on promoting their new album. That they felt the need to do these tours was probably at least in part to feeling backlash from the concert promoters.
I couldn't tell you what festival it was, nor what year, but within the last 6 years I remember hearing about how Steven Wilson was headlining a European festival over Dream Theater! While SW's profile might be growing to a degree, what does that tell you about DT's popularity even in the metal stronghold of Europe? Perhaps this happened before TA - like I said, I don't recall what year - but if it happened in 2017, then TA could have been a factor in that happening.
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As far as The Astonishing goes. I was a big fan when it came out and have cooled a little on it over time although it’s been a long time since I listened to it. I knew the second I heard it though that it would be hugely divisive. My argument has always been that they should have prepared fans for what it was. If it was more “hey everyone, we’ve done a thing” and they then went on to say they’d written a musical theatre show. I don’t think it would have been received as harshly as it was as people would have known what was coming. However, because it was marketed as the new DT album (and a double disc concept album at that), it raised expectations to a ridiculously high level. People then threw the album on expecting an epic prog metal concept piece and instead got a Broadway/Disney style musical with some metal elements which sounded like nothing they’d ever done before.
I totally applaud JP for trying something completely different instead of just putting out a standard DT album and contend that there is some absolutely inspired stuff on there but he should have warned people what it was.
I disagree by the way that DOT was a reaction to the reception of The Astonishing. I think that was always intended to be something out of left field that JP largely did on his own. The album after was always going to be back to a normal DT record and I said that at the time. Maybe the whole, let’s all live and record together may have been throwing the other guys a bone a bit after he had total control on TA but don’t think it was due to fan’s reactions.
You mean to tell me, fans of music are so afraid of the unknown they need the band to comfort them first, before they release something unexpected?
Listen, I'm a music fan as well. But, I don't understand that kind of thinking.
The disappointment is entirely on the fans. Expectations, Assumptions, Reflecting on past concept albums, are all things that affected peoples responses to the actual music on the album. People expected another SFAM and automatically make connections to SFAM and the new concept, they create in their mind an assumption to how the album will sound. In turn, when it's not to that assumption, disappointment occurs.
It's exactly what JP describes it as...A Rock Opera, not a Concept Album. A Rock Opera usually has a cast of characters, that can be voiced by different singers, or the main singer, and the characters have a dialogue that tells the story. Concept Albums, usually don't have that character dialogue. Ayreon and Avantasia, brought that Rock Opera format to life and more into the mainstream of an album and brought Broadway to live shows. What Ayreon did with The Theater Equation, did just that, that is the closest you can get to a true Broadway style production of a Rock Opera. The Who did this in a way, but did it in the Movie style with Tommy.
I cannot fathom the idea that this album "harmed" DT when they have basically released 14 (I think?) albums that basically have something for everyone. It takes just a small dive into the history of art to see how, what we today consider as being masterpieces, were probably subjected to heavy criticism and rejection back on their day (I'm not saying TA is a timeless masterpiece lol, it's just a comparison to make my point clear).
I think it can to some degree. A significant enough misstep (which some attribute to TA) can be enough to lose a part of the fanbase that are not diehards. While you say that from all outward appearances the tour went great, I question that. I don't have time right now to compare the types of venues that DT was playing before, during and after the TA tour, but I think it's pretty telling that the band opted to drop 5 songs from TA so that they could shoe-horn in a 3 song encore of classics towards the end of the tour, and that the following 2 world tours both featured them playing "classic" albums from beginning to end as the second set - in particular during the last tour which should have been focused just on promoting their new album. That they felt the need to do these tours was probably at least in part to feeling backlash from the concert promoters.
I couldn't tell you what festival it was, nor what year, but within the last 6 years I remember hearing about how Steven Wilson was headlining a European festival over Dream Theater! While SW's profile might be growing to a degree, what does that tell you about DT's popularity even in the metal stronghold of Europe? Perhaps this happened before TA - like I said, I don't recall what year - but if it happened in 2017, then TA could have been a factor in that happening.
You're forgetting the fact that the Booking Agent fudged up majorly by booking venues in places they have already played. That also, plays a major factor in their decisions. Because they already saw it, why would a casual music fan want to see the show again, in the same town? If it was in a different city, those people will then go, oh cool, I can see it now since it's closer to me and I don't have to travel Far this time...Those kinds of things are affected by where you book shows.
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Who mentioned anyone being afraid? I’m just saying if fans knew the album was going to be in the style of a Broadway musical rather than a traditional album format, they may have been more prepared for what they got. Many would still have disliked it but they likely wouldn’t have been so angry about it as they knew what was coming.
I don’t recall JP using the term rock opera prior to the album’s release, maybe he did. All I know is that as a huge fan who was intently and hungrily eating up any news we got, I was not expecting musical theatre from this album. I was expecting a full on prog metal DT double disc concept record. Even the singles released were more traditional DT fare.
I’m not suggesting bands cannot change things up without pre-warning fans but, if people are expecting a new DT album and you are giving them the soundtrack to a musical theatre show, I think they may have avoided some of the backlash by telling people that. Just say “I’ve always loved musicals and it’s been an ambition of mine to write something in that style. It’s still Dream Theater but it’s something really different for us as it’s not a traditional rock album, it’s like DT does Broadway and I hope our amazing fans will embrace it. It has been a hugely ambitious undertaking and we’re really proud of what we’ve done. James, in particular did an incredible job as he has to sing all the different characters. We will be playing the whole thing every night on the upcoming tour and it will be our most ambitious stage production ever. I can’t wait to get out there and play it for people.
If I read that, before the album came out, I’d still be super excited but would be intrigued too and then, when I heard it, even if I hated it, I would have immediately thought “now I get what he meant”. Rather than the more angry reaction of someone expecting a traditional DT concept album.
Like I said I loved it when it came out so it was all good for me.
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Who mentioned anyone being afraid? I’m just saying if fans knew the album was going to be in the style of a Broadway musical rather than a traditional album format, they may have been more prepared for what they got. Many would still have disliked it but they likely wouldn’t have been so angry about it as they knew what was coming.
Did people really get ANGRY about The Astonishing?
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Who mentioned anyone being afraid? I’m just saying if fans knew the album was going to be in the style of a Broadway musical rather than a traditional album format, they may have been more prepared for what they got. Many would still have disliked it but they likely wouldn’t have been so angry about it as they knew what was coming.
I don’t recall JP using the term rock opera prior to the album’s release, maybe he did. All I know is that as a huge fan who was intently and hungrily eating up any news we got, I was not expecting musical theatre from this album. I was expecting a full on prog metal DT double disc concept record. Even the singles released were more traditional DT fare.
I’m not suggesting bands cannot change things up without pre-warning fans but, if people are expecting a new DT album and you are giving them the soundtrack to a musical theatre show, I think they may have avoided some of the backlash by telling people that. Just say “I’ve always loved musicals and it’s been an ambition of mine to write something in that style. It’s still Dream Theater but it’s something really different for us as it’s not a traditional rock album, it’s like DT does Broadway and I hope our amazing fans will embrace it. It has been a hugely ambitious undertaking and we’re really proud of what we’ve done. James, in particular did an incredible job as he has to sing all the different characters. We will be playing the whole thing every night on the upcoming tour and it will be our most ambitious stage production ever. I can’t wait to get out there and play it for people.
If I read that, before the album came out, I’d still be super excited but would be intrigued too and then, when I heard it, even if I hated it, I would have immediately thought “now I get what he meant”. Rather than the more angry reaction of someone expecting a traditional DT concept album.
Like I said I loved it when it came out so it was all good for me.
He did do just that...
https://search.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theater-official-the-astonishing-album-trailer/
Asked what prompted the idea to make "The Astonishing" a rock-opera concept album so elaborate, with a full, detailed storyline, DREAM THEATER guitarist John Petrucci told RollingStone.com: "The idea to do a concept album as a band felt right. The last one we did [1999's 'Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes From A Memory'] was about 15 years ago, and it really felt like we were in a good place to do this. I knew that what needed to happen, first and foremost, is that we had to have a story to base this on, because the idea of basing an album off of a loose concept or something that was sort of arbitrary, that didn't interest me at all. I wanted this not only to be a concept album, but really to write a full show. And to have all the elements in place, the story needs to drive that. We needed to have the storyline, a plot, places, characters, maps — you name it. So that started about two and a half years ago; it took about a year for me to get that story done and ready to present to the guys. And I wanted to write from a place that was familiar to me, so I knew that music had to play a role in the story somehow. I'm a huge fan of the sci-fi and fantasy genres, so I had a pretty good idea of where I wanted to go. But it was a matter of really diving into it and working on it, revising and revising again, and working on it every day until I had something solid."
Petrucci also talked in more detail about the songwriting process for "The Atonishing". He said: "Because of the sheer volume of music — you're talking, when all's said and done, probably two hours, 10 minutes' worth of music — every step of this has been a huge process. I don't think I've had time to do anything else over the last year or so [laughs]! In order to do this right, I had to be really, really organized about it. Jordan [Rudess, keyboards] and I wrote the music as really a prog-metal score to the story. We didn't sit down and say, 'Let's write a song, here's the first chorus, whatever.' We would go through the story and say, "What's happening here, where is it taking place?" We had to make sure the mythology was right, the timeline was right. And that carried through on every level. When it came to presenting the orchestration to [veteran conductor and orchestrator] David Campbell and getting him involved; when it came to writing the lyrics, and then me having to go through it song by song, character by character; even things like the artwork, creating the map and all those different towns and cities and roads — every sort of level and layer took a lot of organization and focus."
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Who mentioned anyone being afraid? I’m just saying if fans knew the album was going to be in the style of a Broadway musical rather than a traditional album format, they may have been more prepared for what they got. Many would still have disliked it but they likely wouldn’t have been so angry about it as they knew what was coming.
Did people really get ANGRY about The Astonishing?
Oh yes.
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Who mentioned anyone being afraid? I’m just saying if fans knew the album was going to be in the style of a Broadway musical rather than a traditional album format, they may have been more prepared for what they got. Many would still have disliked it but they likely wouldn’t have been so angry about it as they knew what was coming.
I don’t recall JP using the term rock opera prior to the album’s release, maybe he did. All I know is that as a huge fan who was intently and hungrily eating up any news we got, I was not expecting musical theatre from this album. I was expecting a full on prog metal DT double disc concept record. Even the singles released were more traditional DT fare.
I’m not suggesting bands cannot change things up without pre-warning fans but, if people are expecting a new DT album and you are giving them the soundtrack to a musical theatre show, I think they may have avoided some of the backlash by telling people that. Just say “I’ve always loved musicals and it’s been an ambition of mine to write something in that style. It’s still Dream Theater but it’s something really different for us as it’s not a traditional rock album, it’s like DT does Broadway and I hope our amazing fans will embrace it. It has been a hugely ambitious undertaking and we’re really proud of what we’ve done. James, in particular did an incredible job as he has to sing all the different characters. We will be playing the whole thing every night on the upcoming tour and it will be our most ambitious stage production ever. I can’t wait to get out there and play it for people.
If I read that, before the album came out, I’d still be super excited but would be intrigued too and then, when I heard it, even if I hated it, I would have immediately thought “now I get what he meant”. Rather than the more angry reaction of someone expecting a traditional DT concept album.
Like I said I loved it when it came out so it was all good for me.
He did do just that...
https://search.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theater-official-the-astonishing-album-trailer/
Not nearly to the extent Peter MC was talking about though.
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Who mentioned anyone being afraid? I’m just saying if fans knew the album was going to be in the style of a Broadway musical rather than a traditional album format, they may have been more prepared for what they got. Many would still have disliked it but they likely wouldn’t have been so angry about it as they knew what was coming.
Did people really get ANGRY about The Astonishing?
Oh yes.
Really?
ANGRY?
That's just sad.
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Who mentioned anyone being afraid? I’m just saying if fans knew the album was going to be in the style of a Broadway musical rather than a traditional album format, they may have been more prepared for what they got. Many would still have disliked it but they likely wouldn’t have been so angry about it as they knew what was coming.
I don’t recall JP using the term rock opera prior to the album’s release, maybe he did. All I know is that as a huge fan who was intently and hungrily eating up any news we got, I was not expecting musical theatre from this album. I was expecting a full on prog metal DT double disc concept record. Even the singles released were more traditional DT fare.
I’m not suggesting bands cannot change things up without pre-warning fans but, if people are expecting a new DT album and you are giving them the soundtrack to a musical theatre show, I think they may have avoided some of the backlash by telling people that. Just say “I’ve always loved musicals and it’s been an ambition of mine to write something in that style. It’s still Dream Theater but it’s something really different for us as it’s not a traditional rock album, it’s like DT does Broadway and I hope our amazing fans will embrace it. It has been a hugely ambitious undertaking and we’re really proud of what we’ve done. James, in particular did an incredible job as he has to sing all the different characters. We will be playing the whole thing every night on the upcoming tour and it will be our most ambitious stage production ever. I can’t wait to get out there and play it for people.
If I read that, before the album came out, I’d still be super excited but would be intrigued too and then, when I heard it, even if I hated it, I would have immediately thought “now I get what he meant”. Rather than the more angry reaction of someone expecting a traditional DT concept album.
Like I said I loved it when it came out so it was all good for me.
He did do just that...
https://search.blabbermouth.net/news/dream-theater-official-the-astonishing-album-trailer/
Not nearly to the extent Peter MC was talking about though.
I don't think JP expected this reaction from fans, and likely figured the fans would understand it's a Rock Opera, due to him saying " I wanted this not only to be a concept album, but really to write a full show"
I got that they were doing a Rock Opera, from the way he was describing the story, characters, plot, maps, etc. You must not have been paying much attention to not expect this.
How would JP have known the fans wouldn't be happy with the way these songs are arranged, soft opener and climatic outro to transition the story and plot?
JP gave his reasons to why the songs are arranged the way they are. Which is to showcase the story like an Opera, I've been to Operas and these songs are structured in the same way, where the song is the Scene of the play. The Liner Notes showcases this to the bone with telling where the Scene takes place, it reads like a play script. All these are even before you can hear the album.
AS I SAID. I have no idea what fans Expectations were for this album. JP explained what this album was going to be, the band even had a dedicated site to the album, All revealing the album is not your usual concept album. JP even explained the writing process they took to create the songs, and it isn't how they usually write songs. They actually composed with the story, in his own words...
"Jordan [Rudess, keyboards] and I wrote the music as really a prog-metal score to the story. We didn't sit down and say, 'Let's write a song, here's the first chorus, whatever.' We would go through the story and say, "What's happening here, where is it taking place?" We had to make sure the mythology was right, the timeline was right. And that carried through on every level."
From that, you can gather, the songs are not going to be in the usual Dream Theater structures. The way they were structured is what JP feels should be the score music behind the characters dialogue. Maybe showing their sadness, their contempt, using the music to show the characters emotion. All things like that he explained.
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As a fan of The Astonishing, as well as the direction of the band since MP was no longer part of the writing process I wanted to make a few comments.
First, It's funny to me to hear people say that the band lost its soul or its way AFTER MP left. I love Portnoy but IMO the band clearly lost it's way after SDOIT. They wanted to make a balls to the wall metal album and they did just that with TOT... it was not my taste but it was exciting and fresh. After that album they were never the same... the Magic they had up until SDOIT had evaporated as they tried to become more of a modern metal band and have JL sing like Hetfield. They have since re-captured some of that magic with the last 3 albums IMO. I consider ADTOE to be a Portnoy album as you can tell he was part of the writing process and the vocal melodies/production/sound of JL still sounds like the SC/BC&SL years. It's also not surprisingly my least favorite DT album.
I would rank the era's: 1. WDADU through SDOIT 2. DT through DOT 3. TOT through ADTOE
Second, I love MP and I like his drumming better than MM(MM did Kill on DOT though) However, whether or not it was Portnoy's fault or not, the band had gotten stale and the change in the band dynamic seems to have given the band a burst of energy needed and seemed to allow them to go back to their natural sound.
Third, when MP left, JL got a million times better IMO. Listen to how great James sounds on the Cover disk of BC&SL VS the album, and also the way he sings on SC and even ADTOE. Clearly James was "finally free" to get back to soaring over the top Progressive Vocals once MP left the bend. I know there was a lot of talk about JL's voice going into TOT and how MP wanted him to sing more like a metal singer. James is finally done doing that and his vocals sound fantastic again.
Fourth, I think a HUGE problem with the Astonishing was the marketing for it. It was a great idea... have fans pick the good side or the evil side of a war. This made people think of epic wars and progressive metal glory. The problem is that instead of intense Iron Maiden like songs of war, they got a rock opera with several hints at Disney.
Anyways, IMO DoT is the best DT album since SDOIT by far and I have liked every album more and more since the Self Titled. Portnoy is one of my favorite drummers of all time and I love him all the way through SDOIT and a lot of what he has done on flying colors etc.... However, although I was upset at the time, I think him leaving ended up being great for DT as a band.
This is all my opinion of course... I'm sure others will disagree and think I'm crazy.
If you were a fan of the more metal side of DT and the albums from Octavarium through ADTOE I can understand why you would feel that the newer stuff is a little watered down. I actually don't entirely disagree but the sound is WAY more in line with their 90's vibe IMO. Plus, they are older, in their 50's and 60's now... can we really expect another I&W or SFAM from when they were just bursting onto the music scene?
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First, I say not part of the writing process because you can feel his presence all over ADTOE and it's easily my least favorite DT album. I hardly ever listen to it.
What does this even mean, though?
How someone can find Octavarium to be a proggier sounding album than the self titled, astonishing, or DOT is crazy to me outside of the Title track.
This. I still don't know why Octavarium (the album) gets that much love by some people. It's really good, but definitely not one of their best albums. It's a middle/bottom of the ranking album for me.
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First, I say not part of the writing process because you can feel his presence all over ADTOE and it's easily my least favorite DT album. I hardly ever listen to it.
Are you saying that "you can feel [MP's] presence all over ADTOE"? I sure as heck can't (although I'm not really sure what that means).
How someone can find Octavarium to be a proggier sounding album than the self titled, astonishing, or DOT is crazy to me outside of the Title track.
I'll go with you on most of this, although I've never really felt the inclination we analyze and compare the prog levels of two different albums. I think the "proggier sounding" comments about 8VM stem primarily from (1) the title track, and (2) the diversity of the songs. All that said, I don't think DOT is a particularly "proggy" album (outside of the requisite odd times and complex rhythms).
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ha I didnt realize I had actually posted something already... I made a bunch of changes so re-read the new post.
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Wasn't MP part of the writing of ADTOE? I could be wrong on that.
I thought MM was basically playing Portnoy's parts and a lot of it was written with him in it.
If that's incorrect, then my apologies.
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Really?
ANGRY?
That's just sad.
Agreed.
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Wasn't MP part of the writing of ADTOE? I could be wrong on that.
I thought MM was basically playing Portnoy's parts and a lot of it was written with him in it.
If that's incorrect, then my apologies.
No. Portnoy was long gone by this point. Petrucci wrote the drum parts ( he claims he only wrote bass drum and snare for each song ) and Mangini either copied his parts and fleshed them out or wrote
totally new ones based on what sounded best.
I am 100% sure I *read* Petrucci say he only wrote bass drum and snare for every song - but the common belief is that he wrote for the entire drumkit.
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Wasn't MP part of the writing of ADTOE? I could be wrong on that.
I thought MM was basically playing Portnoy's parts and a lot of it was written with him in it.
If that's incorrect, then my apologies.
Yeah, that's all wrong :biggrin:
All the material was written without MM being in there, but he was already a member of the band. No music from ADTOE was written with MP still in the band. IIRC, the band meeting where MP quit was initially going to be the meeting where they would discuss the direction of their next (11th) album, and that's when he told them he needed/wanted a break.
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Wasn't MP part of the writing of ADTOE? I could be wrong on that.
I thought MM was basically playing Portnoy's parts and a lot of it was written with him in it.
If that's incorrect, then my apologies.
No. Portnoy was long gone by this point. Petrucci wrote the drum parts ( he claims he only wrote bass drum and snare for each song ) and Mangini either copid his parts and fleshed them out or wrote totally new ones based on what sounded best.
Interesting, kind of puts a dent in my theory... I'll see myself out :) haha
Maybe its just the production of that album... I can't put my finger on it but that album just never excites me to listen to it.
Also, I want to be clear on my original post that I still really enjoy a lot of Octavarium, SC, and BC&SL now. At the time I was very disappointed because they felt like major departures of what I loved about DT. However, I have since come to enjoy them a great deal, just nowhere near as much as the 90's stuff and SDOIT.
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Well - A Dramatic Turn Of Events was written to a drum machine. Mangini wasn't even in the studio with them until he had to record his drum parts.
They recorded TO a drum machine - which MIGHT explain why it sounds a bit lifeless ??
* EDIT - actually i'm not 100% sure if Mangini was there when they were tracking - so I don't know if they RECORDED to the Superior Drummer skeleton drums or Mangini. **
Perhaps Bosky or someone can shed some light :) x
** I mean obviously Mike Mangini recorded drums on ADTOE - But did he put his live drums down FIRST or at THE END ?
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Purely speculation on my part, but seeing as the drums are usually the foundation for DT's recording, I would imagine that MM created his drum parts according to the demos that were created, and then he recorded them first for the rest of the band to build off of for the proper recording sessions.
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Wasn't MP part of the writing of ADTOE? I could be wrong on that.
I thought MM was basically playing Portnoy's parts and a lot of it was written with him in it.
If that's incorrect, then my apologies.
No. Portnoy was long gone by this point. Petrucci wrote the drum parts ( he claims he only wrote bass drum and snare for each song ) and Mangini either copid his parts and fleshed them out or wrote totally new ones based on what sounded best.
Interesting, kind of puts a dent in my theory... I'll see myself out :) haha
Maybe its just the production of that album... I can't put my finger on it but that album just never excites me to listen to it.
Also, I want to be clear on my original post that I still really enjoy a lot of Octavarium, SC, and BC&SL now. At the time I was very disappointed because they felt like major departures of what I loved about DT. However, I have since come to enjoy them a great deal, just nowhere near as much as the 90's stuff and SDOIT.
Yeah - it's the production of the album and they way MM's drum tones were captured and recorded. ADTOE needs a remaster.
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Well - A Dramatic Turn Of Events was written to a drum machine. Mangini wasn't even in the studio with them until he had to record his drum parts.
They recorded TO a drum machine - which MIGHT explain why it sounds a bit lifeless ??
* EDIT - actually i'm not 100% sure if Mangini was there when they were tracking - so I don't know if they RECORDED to the Superior Drummer skeleton drums or Mangini. **
Perhaps Bosky or someone can shed some light :) x
** I mean obviously Mike Mangini recorded drums on ADTOE - But did he put his live drums down FIRST or at THE END ?
Terminal Velocity was also done in this way though and doesn’t sound lifeless at all (not that I think ADTOE does either) Petrucci’s parts were all recorded before Portnoy even picked up his sticks.
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My only problems with Mangini are
a. ) How he seems to do things on his kit exclusively because people say he probably shouldn't. Like - on the ADTOE tour - he had 4 bass drums because " I absolutely need 4 bass drums "...
but now on the D/T tour he only has one. So you in fact didn't absolutely need four bass drums. Then people made fun of his cymbals being high up - so now his hi hats are up there too.
On one hand I fully agree that you should set up your kit how you WANT and not let anyone else tell you how you should play. But with mangini it seems like his kit setup is almost passive aggressive :lol
b. ) Secondly how he talks more about time signatures and subdivisions more than how a song FEELS. I just wish he'd occasionally close his eyes and just drum to the music. That's the one thing
I miss form Portnoy - is a bit of SOUL in the playing. And a little less MIND.
Like if Petrucci writes a riff - Mangini will play the riff on his kit and say something like " well it's 7 16th notes in a low register so I play 7 16th notes on my high toms " yadda yadda.
YES BUT HOW DOES THE RIFF *FEEL* ?
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My only problems with Mangini are...
...b. ) Secondly how he talks more about time signatures and subdivisions more than how a song FEELS. I just wish he'd occasionally close his eyes and just drum to the music. That's the one thing
I miss form Portnoy - is a bit of SOUL in the playing. And a little less MIND.
Like if Petrucci writes a riff - Mangini will play the riff on his kit and say something like " well it's 7 16th notes in a low register so I play 7 16th notes on my high toms " yadda yadda.
YES BUT HOW DOES THE RIFF *FEEL* ?
I think that’s the biggest difference between the two drummers. Mangini’s playing highlights the music. Portnoy’s playing drives it.
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b. ) Secondly how he talks more about time signatures and subdivisions more than how a song FEELS. I just wish he'd occasionally close his eyes and just drum to the music. That's the one thing
I miss form Portnoy - is a bit of SOUL in the playing. And a little less MIND.
Like if Petrucci writes a riff - Mangini will play the riff on his kit and say something like " well it's 7 16th notes in a low register so I play 7 16th notes on my high toms " yadda yadda.
YES BUT HOW DOES THE RIFF *FEEL* ?
To be fair, I think that's how he *feels* the music, it's just his way of interpreting things. Remember, this is a guy who used to work programming codes for missile launch programs :lol
Also, I seem to remember he said in an interview that he improvised his playing on most of TA.
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b. ) Secondly how he talks more about time signatures and subdivisions more than how a song FEELS. I just wish he'd occasionally close his eyes and just drum to the music. That's the one thing
I miss form Portnoy - is a bit of SOUL in the playing. And a little less MIND.
Like if Petrucci writes a riff - Mangini will play the riff on his kit and say something like " well it's 7 16th notes in a low register so I play 7 16th notes on my high toms " yadda yadda.
YES BUT HOW DOES THE RIFF *FEEL* ?
To be fair, I think that's how he *feels* the music, it's just his way of interpreting things. Remember, this is a guy who used to work programming codes for missile launch programs :lol
Also, I seem to remember he said in an interview that he improvised his playing on most of TA.
He's obviously a Math Nerd too. He's wearing a √7 Jersey. His first Dream Theater composition is about a guy who was obsessed with the number 137. Mangini basically breathes numbers, and math. It's how he thinks and views things apparently, based on his approach with rhythms. It makes sense he is a drummer though.
I was listening to Chaos In Motion, and while MP does "Drive" the song and brings the energy. It was odd hearing how he sped up parts, sometimes a little too much, and the band without a click, played some parts a bit too slow. An example is in Blind Fatih, Myung starts a bit slower than album speed, then when MP comes in with his drums, the tempo does sudden quick shift, and everything gets faster. There are sections where I feel for JP, because he has to play some difficult ass guitar parts, while MP decides to go Super Sayan speed, like Gigantour The Glass Prison. That alone could be a good reason for why the band enjoys playing with a click, it helps keep the song at a constant tempo, and I believe that is set by Mangini, and he can speed it up if he wants with his gadgets on the side.
I watched Pale Blue Dot and liked how It looks, and sounds. Manginis Tom's and Cymbals sound excellent. It's looking to be this era's Budakon in terms of video and sound quality.
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Also, I seem to remember he said in an interview that he improvised his playing on most of TA.
I think that was just by dint of having to get it all done very quickly.
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There’s a feeling that TA is less technical than some of DT’s other releases and I wouldn’t dispute that but Mangini’s playing on that album is incredible at times. I remember my nephew was only a toddler when the album came out and he had a toy guitar that he’d play and I’d have to be the drummer, air drumming along. When you actually have to concentrate on the drums on the album, there’s so much incredible, inventive playing with constantly changing fills. He was absolutely incredible in the live show of the TA tour as well. Such a shame (and a weird decision imo) that we didn’t get a dvd of this tour.
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There’s a feeling that TA is less technical than some people of DT’s other releases and I wouldn’t dispute that but Mangini’s playing on that album is incredible at times. I remember my nephew was only a toddler when the album came out and he had a toy guitar that he’d play and I’d have to be the drummer, air drumming along. When you actually have to concentrate on the drums on the album, there’s so much incredible, inventive playing with constantly changing fills. He was absolutely incredible in the live show of the TA tour as well. Such a shame (and a weird decision imo) that we didn’t get a dvd of this tour.
Completely agree! That's why I think it's a shame that people pan this album because when you listen to MM, you can really hear his percussive side and there's a lot of nuanced playing. Sure he hangs back when it is needed but that's what Neil Peart used to call "serving the song".
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There’s a feeling that TA is less technical than some people of DT’s other releases and I wouldn’t dispute that but Mangini’s playing on that album is incredible at times. I remember my nephew was only a toddler when the album came out and he had a toy guitar that he’d play and I’d have to be the drummer, air drumming along. When you actually have to concentrate on the drums on the album, there’s so much incredible, inventive playing with constantly changing fills. He was absolutely incredible in the live show of the TA tour as well. Such a shame (and a weird decision imo) that we didn’t get a dvd of this tour.
Completely agree! That's why I think it's a shame that people pan this album because when you listen to MM, you can really hear his percussive side and there's a lot of nuanced playing. Sure he hangs back when it is needed but that's what Neil Peart used to call "serving the song".
Yup, It's a different way to look at how to compose drum parts.
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MM is an amazing drum composer and orchestrator. He really approaches composition in a very thought-out way, as opposed to Portnoy's more rock and feel-oriented style. Both are amazing ways of writing and performing drum parts, but MM's nuanced orchestration really benefited TA greatly. That can be seen in their live performances very clearly, as Portnoy is usually changing things up because he plays as he feels them and not much as he composed them for their studio recording, wheras MM is the opposite.
I remember there's this YouTube video in which this guy basically shits on MM saying that Portnoy could've done a much better job during the outro solo of "A New Beginning", which is completely absurd in most regards. MM knows when to overplay and do crazy technical stuff that leaves everyone's jaws open but he knows when to stay in the back just playing a simple rock beat. Not to say Portnoy is not good in this area (the guy can be really musical when we wants to be), but I definitely think Mangini's feel in this area is more refined, in the lack of a better word to describe it.
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Like - on the ADTOE tour - he had 4 bass drums because " I absolutely need 4 bass drums "...
but now on the D/T tour he only has one. So you in fact didn't absolutely need four bass drums.
I was scrolling through MM's last few FB posts and checking the comments because he usually answers a few questions on each post and I found his explanation for not using the 4 bass drums anymore, so I came here searching for this post to reply.
Somebody asked why he stopped using the 26” and 18” kicks, and he answered:
I was asked to reconsider them and just use "regular" ones.
He also said in another comment:
I do have a large kit set up in my studio - the one I used on my recordings there + for Zoom Lessons. Not the multi kicks though. I miss them. They're so much fun. I will say that I should set up one of these past DT kits up one day with twice as much stuff to just be happy and not care about a thing but making noises. No time these days. The post goes along with reminiscing about past things.
So it seems, to me, like it was a logistics based decision, since it isn't cheap to move such a massive kit around the world. He did have two smaller ones with electonic pads for the DT12 tour tho, but then went to only 2 22''s from 2015 to 2017.
As for him only using one now, he also answered that a couple times. I don't have the exact quote now, but he basically said that we wanted to use 24'' bass drums for D/T but he couldn't fit two of them and keep the tom positioning he likes, so he went only with one, and he seems to dig that for DT now.
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Like - on the ADTOE tour - he had 4 bass drums because " I absolutely need 4 bass drums "...
but now on the D/T tour he only has one. So you in fact didn't absolutely need four bass drums.
I was scrolling through MM's last few FB posts and checking the comments because he usually answers a few questions on each post and I found his explanation for not using the 4 bass drums anymore, so I came here searching for this post to reply.
Somebody asked why he stopped using the 26” and 18” kicks, and he answered:
I was asked to reconsider them and just use "regular" ones.
He also said in another comment:
I do have a large kit set up in my studio - the one I used on my recordings there + for Zoom Lessons. Not the multi kicks though. I miss them. They're so much fun. I will say that I should set up one of these past DT kits up one day with twice as much stuff to just be happy and not care about a thing but making noises. No time these days. The post goes along with reminiscing about past things.
So it seems, to me, like it was a logistics based decision, since it isn't cheap to move such a massive kit around the world. He did have two smaller ones with electonic pads for the DT12 tour tho, but then went to only 2 22''s from 2015 to 2017.
As for him only using one now, he also answered that a couple times. I don't have the exact quote now, but he basically said that we wanted to use 24'' bass drums for D/T but he couldn't fit two of them and keep the tom positioning he likes, so he went only with one, and he seems to dig that for DT now.
Could have been for the mix, as well.
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As for him only using one now, he also answered that a couple times. I don't have the exact quote now, but he basically said that we wanted to use 24'' bass drums for D/T but he couldn't fit two of them and keep the tom positioning he likes, so he went only with one, and he seems to dig that for DT now.
I wonder if he has ever thought about having a custom riser built that could have two sunken areas for the bass drums so that the base of each is, say, 2" lower than the rest of the riser floor, so that he could have the 24s without them elevating the toms to an uncomfortable height. I know something like that is a bit complicated, but look at what Jordan has has designed for him by way of keyboard stands.
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MM is an amazing drum composer and orchestrator. He really approaches composition in a very thought-out way, as opposed to Portnoy's more rock and feel-oriented style. Both are amazing ways of writing and performing drum parts, but MM's nuanced orchestration really benefited TA greatly. That can be seen in their live performances very clearly, as Portnoy is usually changing things up because he plays as he feels them and not much as he composed them for their studio recording, wheras MM is the opposite.
I remember there's this YouTube video in which this guy basically shits on MM saying that Portnoy could've done a much better job during the outro solo of "A New Beginning", which is completely absurd in most regards. MM knows when to overplay and do crazy technical stuff that leaves everyone's jaws open but he knows when to stay in the back just playing a simple rock beat. Not to say Portnoy is not good in this area (the guy can be really musical when we wants to be), but I definitely think Mangini's feel in this area is more refined, in the lack of a better word to describe it.
Mangini has really grown on me and has some killer drum parts... I think he absolutely crushed the entire album of DOT. However, I completely agree with whoever voiced criticism on Mangini's drumming in the outro of the "A New Beginnining". I don't know who is to blame for it but Mangini's drumming and inability to groove there while doing nothing of interest is what holds that solo back from being one of the all time Petrucci greats. That's of course just my opinion and it could have been Petrucci who wrote the drum part so I have no idea. That is certainly a section where I think Portnoy would have shined.
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I was listening to Chaos In Motion, and while MP does "Drive" the song and brings the energy. It was odd hearing how he sped up parts, sometimes a little too much, and the band without a click, played some parts a bit too slow. An example is in Blind Fatih, Myung starts a bit slower than album speed, then when MP comes in with his drums, the tempo does sudden quick shift, and everything gets faster. There are sections where I feel for JP, because he has to play some difficult ass guitar parts, while MP decides to go Super Sayan speed, like Gigantour The Glass Prison. That alone could be a good reason for why the band enjoys playing with a click, it helps keep the song at a constant tempo, and I believe that is set by Mangini, and he can speed it up if he wants with his gadgets on the side.
And that's crucial. My opinion only, but that's why so many Led Zeppelin covers are inferior. They don't breathe. The best Zeppelin - and when it was on it was untouchable - was always very fluid, and the best covers capture that (that's why, IMO, the Heart version of Stairway was so impactful; you had Jason playing - in both senses of the word - with the song and tempos).
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MM is an amazing drum composer and orchestrator. He really approaches composition in a very thought-out way, as opposed to Portnoy's more rock and feel-oriented style. Both are amazing ways of writing and performing drum parts, but MM's nuanced orchestration really benefited TA greatly. That can be seen in their live performances very clearly, as Portnoy is usually changing things up because he plays as he feels them and not much as he composed them for their studio recording, wheras MM is the opposite.
I remember there's this YouTube video in which this guy basically shits on MM saying that Portnoy could've done a much better job during the outro solo of "A New Beginning", which is completely absurd in most regards. MM knows when to overplay and do crazy technical stuff that leaves everyone's jaws open but he knows when to stay in the back just playing a simple rock beat. Not to say Portnoy is not good in this area (the guy can be really musical when we wants to be), but I definitely think Mangini's feel in this area is more refined, in the lack of a better word to describe it.
Mangini has really grown on me and has some killer drum parts... I think he absolutely crushed the entire album of DOT. However, I completely agree with whoever voiced criticism on Mangini's drumming in the outro of the "A New Beginnining". I don't know who is to blame for it but Mangini's drumming and inability to groove there while doing nothing of interest is what holds that solo back from being one of the all time Petrucci greats. That's of course just my opinion and it could have been Petrucci who wrote the drum part so I have no idea. That is certainly a section where I think Portnoy would have shined.
The approach for that section is definitely a conscious production decision. MM definitely knows how to highlight a guitar solo section with great technical playing (The Looking Glass and Surrender to Reason come to mind), but here it's clearly an intentional call to just play a straight beat, and I find it works great with JM's bass line to support the crazy JP solo. It all helps create an specific mood, and it totally delivers imo.
It's not about who could've played it better, it's all about choosing the best approach for that particular section and what they (or JP as the producer) wanted to achieve with it.
EDIT: I also find MM's drumming in Our New World to be quite simple, yet it works well for a more straight rock song. Similar to that, MP did nothing interesting on TALW, but again, the drumming fit that song well.
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I really don't see how Mangini is failing to groove during that solo in A New Beginning :(
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My only problems with Mangini are
a. ) How he seems to do things on his kit exclusively because people say he probably shouldn't. Like - on the ADTOE tour - he had 4 bass drums because " I absolutely need 4 bass drums "...
but now on the D/T tour he only has one. So you in fact didn't absolutely need four bass drums. Then people made fun of his cymbals being high up - so now his hi hats are up there too.
On one hand I fully agree that you should set up your kit how you WANT and not let anyone else tell you how you should play. But with mangini it seems like his kit setup is almost passive aggressive :lol
b. ) Secondly how he talks more about time signatures and subdivisions more than how a song FEELS. I just wish he'd occasionally close his eyes and just drum to the music. That's the one thing
I miss form Portnoy - is a bit of SOUL in the playing. And a little less MIND.
Like if Petrucci writes a riff - Mangini will play the riff on his kit and say something like " well it's 7 16th notes in a low register so I play 7 16th notes on my high toms " yadda yadda.
YES BUT HOW DOES THE RIFF *FEEL* ?
Feel is an incredibly subjective word that means something entirely different to everyone and that I think doesn't mean much in a musical argument. I sense tons of feel from Mangini's playing but maybe you don't, and that's OK; but in a broader sense of the word that doesn't mean he's not being musical in his way of playing. You can't get more mathematical in your musical construction than J.S. Bach, to give you an example, and that doesn't mean his compositions lack any "feel".
Also, I do see his desire of having 4 bass drums back in 2011/2012 as something that could be musically justified but it's OK if they were also a little bit for show. Sure, you can get different tones out of them but I don't care if they made a big ass kit for him because they kinda needed to do so back then. I can assure you Rick Wakeman doesn't need to have a keyboard rig of 16 different hardware synthesizers to pull off his show but he has them because he can, because it looks cool and because the visual aspect of a show is as important as the musical part. As I stated earlier in this thread (if memory serves me right), MP clearly didn't have the musical need of having a siamese two-kits-in-one set but he had the resources to do it and it was a cool idea for him, and I don't see much people criticizing that.
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Yeah the extra bass drums were just for show, I remember that the band wanted not to disturb the visual aspect of the show following the departure of MP. MP's kits where a huge part o the stage presence so they wanted to keep that.
Anyway, his configuration of drums has changed over the years and I think the whole cymbals in the sky thing is not something new..I think he actually used to do that at some point in his career. Now musically, I'm not the biggest fan of his..the whole 'feel' thing is purely subjective, someone can actually be moved by his playing another might find him just too robotic..But he generally sounds more like a super athlete of drums than a musician..at least to me.
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However, I completely agree with whoever voiced criticism on Mangini's drumming in the outro of the "A New Beginnining". I don't know who is to blame for it but Mangini's drumming and inability to groove there while doing nothing of interest is what holds that solo back from being one of the all time Petrucci greats.
(https://www.reactiongifs.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/what_the_fuck_shatner.gif)
I really don't see how Mangini is failing to groove during that solo in A New Beginning :(
^This
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My only problems with Mangini are
a. ) How he seems to do things on his kit exclusively because people say he probably shouldn't. Like - on the ADTOE tour - he had 4 bass drums because " I absolutely need 4 bass drums "...
but now on the D/T tour he only has one. So you in fact didn't absolutely need four bass drums. Then people made fun of his cymbals being high up - so now his hi hats are up there too.
On one hand I fully agree that you should set up your kit how you WANT and not let anyone else tell you how you should play. But with mangini it seems like his kit setup is almost passive aggressive :lol
b. ) Secondly how he talks more about time signatures and subdivisions more than how a song FEELS. I just wish he'd occasionally close his eyes and just drum to the music. That's the one thing
I miss form Portnoy - is a bit of SOUL in the playing. And a little less MIND.
Like if Petrucci writes a riff - Mangini will play the riff on his kit and say something like " well it's 7 16th notes in a low register so I play 7 16th notes on my high toms " yadda yadda.
YES BUT HOW DOES THE RIFF *FEEL* ?
agree with all of this 100%
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Yeah the extra bass drums were just for show, I remember that the band wanted not to disturb the visual aspect of the show following the departure of MP. MP's kits where a huge part o the stage presence so they wanted to keep that.
Anyway, his configuration of drums has changed over the years and I think the whole cymbals in the sky thing is not something new..I think he actually used to do that at some point in his career. Now musically, I'm not the biggest fan of his..the whole 'feel' thing is purely subjective, someone can actually be moved by his playing another might find him just too robotic..But he generally sounds more like a super athlete of drums than a musician..at least to me.
I came across a video many moons ago of MM playing to a recorded Steve Vai song and he had a huge kit but his cymbals were up pretty high so I think your right, "cymbals in the sky" has been a norm for him.
As far as the MM robotic comments, when I read "MM is robotic" I just replace those words for "MM is not MP" because that's what I think people are really saying. MM is a joy to watch live and I think he's just as much of a showman as MP, just in his own way.
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Yeah the extra bass drums were just for show, I remember that the band wanted not to disturb the visual aspect of the show following the departure of MP. MP's kits where a huge part o the stage presence so they wanted to keep that.
Anyway, his configuration of drums has changed over the years and I think the whole cymbals in the sky thing is not something new..I think he actually used to do that at some point in his career. Now musically, I'm not the biggest fan of his..the whole 'feel' thing is purely subjective, someone can actually be moved by his playing another might find him just too robotic..But he generally sounds more like a super athlete of drums than a musician..at least to me.
I came across a video many moons ago of MM playing to a recorded Steve Vai song and he had a huge kit but his cymbals were up pretty high so I think your right, "cymbals in the sky" has been a norm for him.
As far as the MM robotic comments, when I read "MM is robotic" I just replace those words for "MM is not MP" because that's what I think people are really saying. MM is a joy to watch live and I think he's just as much of a showman as MP, just in his own way.
I find Manginis drumming to be really accurate. SO accurate that people think he sounds robotic. He is actually very musical, because he can use his drums to follow the rhytm of the Keys, Bass, and Guitar.
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Yeah the extra bass drums were just for show, I remember that the band wanted not to disturb the visual aspect of the show following the departure of MP. MP's kits where a huge part o the stage presence so they wanted to keep that.
Anyway, his configuration of drums has changed over the years and I think the whole cymbals in the sky thing is not something new..I think he actually used to do that at some point in his career. Now musically, I'm not the biggest fan of his..the whole 'feel' thing is purely subjective, someone can actually be moved by his playing another might find him just too robotic..But he generally sounds more like a super athlete of drums than a musician..at least to me.
I came across a video many moons ago of MM playing to a recorded Steve Vai song and he had a huge kit but his cymbals were up pretty high so I think your right, "cymbals in the sky" has been a norm for him.
As far as the MM robotic comments, when I read "MM is robotic" I just replace those words for "MM is not MP" because that's what I think people are really saying. MM is a joy to watch live and I think he's just as much of a showman as MP, just in his own way.
I find Manginis drumming to be really accurate. SO accurate that people think he sounds robotic. He is actually very musical, because he can use his drums to follow the rhytm of the Keys, Bass, and Guitar.
And the fact that he's omnidextrous makes it fun to watch him play. A friend of ours saw DT for the first time in Chicago and commented on how he was amazed at how MM drummed with ease with both right and left arms.
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Also, they're playing to a click track these days. They didn't do that before in the MP days, so that also plays a big role with the way things are perceived and that has nothing to do with MM's "robotic-ness" or whatever thing people say to imply that he's way too precise lol.
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My only problems with Mangini are
a. ) How he seems to do things on his kit exclusively because people say he probably shouldn't. Like - on the ADTOE tour - he had 4 bass drums because " I absolutely need 4 bass drums "...
but now on the D/T tour he only has one. So you in fact didn't absolutely need four bass drums. Then people made fun of his cymbals being high up - so now his hi hats are up there too.
On one hand I fully agree that you should set up your kit how you WANT and not let anyone else tell you how you should play. But with mangini it seems like his kit setup is almost passive aggressive :lol
b. ) Secondly how he talks more about time signatures and subdivisions more than how a song FEELS. I just wish he'd occasionally close his eyes and just drum to the music. That's the one thing
I miss form Portnoy - is a bit of SOUL in the playing. And a little less MIND.
Like if Petrucci writes a riff - Mangini will play the riff on his kit and say something like " well it's 7 16th notes in a low register so I play 7 16th notes on my high toms " yadda yadda.
YES BUT HOW DOES THE RIFF *FEEL* ?
agree with all of this 100%
I don’t necessarily disagree with some of this but the guy is a drummer, he’s there to keep time so why wouldn’t he talk about time signatures, that’s his job. I do laugh as well at the “Portnoy plays with feel and soul” brigade. He’s literally the poster child for technical over the top drumming. He is not some feel player who plays for the song, he is a wildly self-indulgent show off drummer. Don’t get me wrong, I like his drumming but I have drummer friends who laugh at how ridiculous he is and call him the Yngwie of drumming, they all say Mangini is much better and plays more for the song. I personally like both but the sentimental side of me would always favour a Portnoy return just because he is a member of the band during their classic era.
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LOL - well maybe DT could do the kitchen sink tour during their waning days and bring everyone back for "One Last Tour " :lol
:'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
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These arguments of who has more feel are always unproductive. When you get to a high enough level of musicianship, it all shakes out according to taste. Most people would agree that MP and MM have more feel than your average youtube cover drummer who's struggling with rhythm. That's where objectivity ends and taste enters the picture, and that includes factors such as "who ~gets into it~ more" and "whose arms produce a more visually interesting movement between the shoulder and the tip of the drum stick when I watch them". A blind listen of, say, a short song in 4/4 produced in a similar way wouldn't have an indiscriminate winner.
Seriously, there's people out there who say John Petrucci has no feel. Literally what would you even say to them. "Has no feel" = "doesn't make me feel as many feels as other people".
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I don’t necessarily disagree with some of this but the guy is a drummer, he’s there to keep time so why wouldn’t he talk about time signatures, that’s his job. I do laugh as well at the “Portnoy plays with feel and soul” brigade. He’s literally the poster child for technical over the top drumming. He is not some feel player who plays for the song, he is a wildly self-indulgent show off drummer. Don’t get me wrong, I like his drumming but I have drummer friends who laugh at how ridiculous he is and call him the Yngwie of drumming, they all say Mangini is much better and plays more for the song. I personally like both but the sentimental side of me would always favour a Portnoy return just because he is a member of the band during their classic era.
Finally someone said it. Prepare for the storm, though :lol
These arguments of who has more feel are always unproductive. When you get to a high enough level of musicianship, it all shakes out according to taste. Most people would agree that MP and MM have more feel than your average youtube cover drummer who's struggling with rhythm. That's where objectivity ends and taste enters the picture, and that includes factors such as "who ~gets into it~ more" and "whose arms produce a more visually interesting movement between the shoulder and the tip of the drum stick when I watch them". A blind listen of, say, a short song in 4/4 produced in a similar way wouldn't have an indiscriminate winner.
Seriously, there's people out there who say John Petrucci has no feel. Literally what would you even say to them. "Has no feel" = "doesn't make me feel as many feels as other people".
As always, great post.
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b]He’s literally the poster child for technical over the top drumming. He is not some feel player who plays for the song, he is a wildly self-indulgent show off drummer.[/b]
Yeah, this is an amazing point. For years and years, Portnoy was the big poster boy and walking image of the quintaessential progressive drummer: technical, fast and precise. He actually filmed videos in which he explained in detail the complex aspects of his drumming and people were all like OMG HE'S THE BEST DRUMMER EVER. The thing is, a guy that runs circles technically around him replaced him and suddenly he became the focus of the "he had more soul" argument. It's funny how things change, as I cannot imagine us having this conversation back in 2009, for example, when Portnoy was still atop his tower as leader of DT and one of the world's most important and flashy progressive drummers.
It's funny when people criticize Mangini's approach to Petrucci's solo in a New Beginning, the so-called Billy Jean beat, when basically he's doing everything people never expected out of him, to just stay back and play a simple 1-3 groove; and for years and years the musicians I've worked with (both at the Conservatory I teach at and people from my local progressive scene) always talked about how they felt Portnoy overplayed stuff, and somewhat I agree. But hey, that's not entirely a bad thing. People loved when he overplayed stuff because basically every little nuance he did was a showcase of his innate talent, and if DT fans get off with something is the idea of: "man, my favorite band has the world's leading performers in every instrument and some guy who sings the lyrics lol."
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Exactly... I’m not listening to dream theater to hear them lay back. I want them to be going all out and overplaying while still making amazing songs. That’s how I would define their entire classic period from images and words to train of thought. They started to lose that on octavarium imo.
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Mike was probably my fave member of DT until the split - and I loved his drumming style ( same 5 fills in every song aside...)
But I like MM way more as a person - even with his slightly passive aggressive " I set my kit up weird Because people tell me not to " approach.
MM does "rock out" a lot more live than in the studio too. I'd like to see MM with a bit more of a traditional setup in DT though...
...something like this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDTYWwqchhQ
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These arguments of who has more feel are always unproductive. When you get to a high enough level of musicianship, it all shakes out according to taste. Most people would agree that MP and MM have more feel than your average youtube cover drummer who's struggling with rhythm. That's where objectivity ends and taste enters the picture, and that includes factors such as "who ~gets into it~ more" and "whose arms produce a more visually interesting movement between the shoulder and the tip of the drum stick when I watch them". A blind listen of, say, a short song in 4/4 produced in a similar way wouldn't have an indiscriminate winner.
Seriously, there's people out there who say John Petrucci has no feel. Literally what would you even say to them. "Has no feel" = "doesn't make me feel as many feels as other people".
I'm pretty sure this is the last word for me (meaning, this says it all). FOR ME - and I'm not a drummer, I'm a nobody who listens to this music to feel something I didn't before I put it on - I get more "return" from Portnoy. There are DT(P) songs I'll be listening to, hear a drum part/fill, and rewind it to hear that part again, because I felt something. I can't name one DT(M) that I've done that for (I have rewound to rehear something that seemed... odd to me, though). It's me. It's my taste, it's what I want to hear. Doesn't make one or the other "better" absolutely, only better FOR ME. Would that more people acknowledge that distinction (I'm not really referring to anyone here, just speaking generally).
The thing is, a guy that runs circles technically around him replaced him and suddenly he became the focus of the "he had more soul" argument. It's funny how things change, as I cannot imagine us having this conversation back in 2009, for example, when Portnoy was still atop his tower as leader of DT and one of the world's most important and flashy progressive drummers.
The two ideas are not mutually exclusive, though. We didn't HAVE to have this conversation back in 2009 because there weren't two drummers and two sides to compare. We're gently glossing over that the conversation covers more than just pure drumming ability. There are people that mix the personal (not limited just to the fall out from the split) into this. I've been called a "Portnoy Fanboy" more than once because I didn't join the "hate train" after the parting, and part of that was preferring Portnoy's playing (and I still do).
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I will say this again, MM has gained a bit of "fame" over being a so called robotic drummer, apart from his different style, also due to bad production decisions.
And i believe JP has a big fault on this side, given the fact that we had to get 3 albums to get a good drum sound from Mike.
I mean, listen to Elements of Persuation and tell me MM has no feel.
I've watched him play live on a clinic where he also played Dream Theater songs, and the difference was night and day with the studio versions.
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But I like MM way more as a person - even with his slightly passive aggressive " I set my kit up weird Because people tell me not to " approach.
The two Mikes have something in common - they both let people get into their heads way too much and defend themselves and make us uncomfortable :corn
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Meanwhile, this is a comment MM made on one of his Facebook posts:
What great comments. So many. Let me address: Firstly, the kind comments about BOTH Mikes is the right thing to do and the right thing to read. You guys are nice, fair and also can enjoy both. The sound is as pure and real as mic'ing and some normal studio engineering can get - Jimmy T. did monitors and mixed the DVD. He has worked with me for years in the roles we have before final production etc. Our band enjoyment from the playing, to the final product and all kinds of things is a great thing. It isn't easy for any group of people to agree on a big pile of things. But when you agree on most things, it shows. I very much love that you can all experience, or relive this tour in some way. Peace to All. And prayers for our World!!
MM being classy as always. OTOH, I don't think I've ever seen MP say anything nice about MM since the DT split.
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I will say this again, MM has gained a bit of "fame" over being a so called robotic drummer, apart from his different style, also due to bad production decisions.
And i believe JP has a big fault on this side, given the fact that we had to get 3 albums to get a good drum sound from Mike.
I mean, listen to Elements of Persuation and tell me MM has no feel.
I've watched him play live on a clinic where he also played Dream Theater songs, and the difference was night and day with the studio versions.
I love elements of persuasion and I'm not even kidding I thought the drums were programmed on that album because they sounded robotic to me. I didn't realize MM played on that album until a few years ago.
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These arguments of who has more feel are always unproductive. When you get to a high enough level of musicianship, it all shakes out according to taste. Most people would agree that MP and MM have more feel than your average youtube cover drummer who's struggling with rhythm. That's where objectivity ends and taste enters the picture, and that includes factors such as "who ~gets into it~ more" and "whose arms produce a more visually interesting movement between the shoulder and the tip of the drum stick when I watch them". A blind listen of, say, a short song in 4/4 produced in a similar way wouldn't have an indiscriminate winner.
Seriously, there's people out there who say John Petrucci has no feel. Literally what would you even say to them. "Has no feel" = "doesn't make me feel as many feels as other people".
I'm pretty sure this is the last word for me (meaning, this says it all). FOR ME - and I'm not a drummer, I'm a nobody who listens to this music to feel something I didn't before I put it on - I get more "return" from Portnoy. There are DT(P) songs I'll be listening to, hear a drum part/fill, and rewind it to hear that part again, because I felt something. I can't name one DT(M) that I've done that for (I have rewound to rehear something that seemed... odd to me, though). It's me. It's my taste, it's what I want to hear. Doesn't make one or the other "better" absolutely, only better FOR ME. Would that more people acknowledge that distinction (I'm not really referring to anyone here, just speaking generally).
The thing is, a guy that runs circles technically around him replaced him and suddenly he became the focus of the "he had more soul" argument. It's funny how things change, as I cannot imagine us having this conversation back in 2009, for example, when Portnoy was still atop his tower as leader of DT and one of the world's most important and flashy progressive drummers.
The two ideas are not mutually exclusive, though. We didn't HAVE to have this conversation back in 2009 because there weren't two drummers and two sides to compare. We're gently glossing over that the conversation covers more than just pure drumming ability. There are people that mix the personal (not limited just to the fall out from the split) into this. I've been called a "Portnoy Fanboy" more than once because I didn't join the "hate train" after the parting, and part of that was preferring Portnoy's playing (and I still do).
This is all perfectly well put, everyone is entitled to their own preferences, some will like one, some will like the other, some will think “it’s only the drummer, I don’t really care or notice the difference!”. It’s the whole justification thing which grates a little. As you said, it’s just personal taste, you like Portnoy more just because he’s more to your taste, I would probably say the same. It’s not because one has soul and the other is a robot, it’s not because one is more technically gifted than the other, it’s just personal taste. In the grand scheme of things they are both fairly similar in that they are both extremely technical prog metal drummers. People talk as if they are polar opposites, they’re not, they’re pretty similar and that’s why he pretty much seamlessly stepped into Portnoy’s shoes and the band felt instantly comfortable with him. To 99% of non-DT fans, if you played them a Portnoy era DT song and a Mangini era DT song, they would not know it was a different drummer. We see the subtle differences as ultra DT fans and either prefer one or the other, I prefer Portnoy just but it’s not a big deal for me as a drummer is never going to make or break a band in my opinion in the same way as a soloist or singer does. You have to be technically proficient to be in DT though obviously.
At the end of the day Mangini is a beast on drums and Portnoy is a beast also, they’re both amazing players and DT sound great with either of them.
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OTOH, I don't think I've ever seen MP say anything nice about MM since the DT split.
You mean like this quote from the April 2012 issue of Rhythm magazine?
What are your thoughts about Mike Mangini getting the Dream Theater gig?
"It’s still very hard for me to see somebody else in the drumseat in Dream Theater. That was my baby and my band for a quarter of a century. Honestly, I didn’t want to see anybody in that drum seat. I would have preferred to have taken a break. With all that being said. if there’s anybody that’s going to be in that seat, I think Mike is the right guy. He’s an old friend of mine and I know he was very concerned about respecting my legacy. Everything I’ve seen him say about me and my role for all those years in Dream Theater has been incredibly respectful and I thank him for that. I don’t hold against him that he took the gig. It’s an amazing opportunity. How could he not? I find my days are much happier when I just concentrate on my future and let my past with Dream Theater be the past. It’s something I’m very proud of and something that will always be a part of me, but it’s 2012 and it’s time for me to move on and write the next few chapters of my career.”
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OTOH, I don't think I've ever seen MP say anything nice about MM since the DT split.
You mean like this quote from the April 2012 issue of Rhythm magazine?
What are your thoughts about Mike Mangini getting the Dream Theater gig?
"It’s still very hard for me to see somebody else in the drumseat in Dream Theater. That was my baby and my band for a quarter of a century. Honestly, I didn’t want to see anybody in that drum seat. I would have preferred to have taken a break. With all that being said. if there’s anybody that’s going to be in that seat, I think Mike is the right guy. He’s an old friend of mine and I know he was very concerned about respecting my legacy. Everything I’ve seen him say about me and my role for all those years in Dream Theater has been incredibly respectful and I thank him for that. I don’t hold against him that he took the gig. It’s an amazing opportunity. How could he not? I find my days are much happier when I just concentrate on my future and let my past with Dream Theater be the past. It’s something I’m very proud of and something that will always be a part of me, but it’s 2012 and it’s time for me to move on and write the next few chapters of my career.”
Well, I hadn't seen that one :lol
But I did see one from around the time TSOAD was released where he was asked about DT and he kept saying things like "their drummer..." and I found it quite annoying that he couldn't just call him by his name, they were (are?) supposed to be friends.
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I will say this again, MM has gained a bit of "fame" over being a so called robotic drummer, apart from his different style, also due to bad production decisions.
And i believe JP has a big fault on this side, given the fact that we had to get 3 albums to get a good drum sound from Mike.
I mean, listen to Elements of Persuation and tell me MM has no feel.
I've watched him play live on a clinic where he also played Dream Theater songs, and the difference was night and day with the studio versions.
Again. On those, he wasn't using the kit he uses when he records for DT. That alone effects how the mix will sound. The kit he uses for DT, is actually the kit HE designed and always wanted to use in a band, but never felt the right band to use it in until he was welcomed to the family. And that kit is not engineer user friendly.
It's why that "The Enemy Inside" drum playthrough sounds better as well. He is using a kit that is easier to mix the cymbals, kick, and snare, without getting bleed from the other cymbals/drums/etc. Also, I don't think he wanted to bring that kit with him just for a clinic, and have to set it up and mic it.
Even though Portnoy's kit is big, You can shut the other mics off on the kit he isn't using. On Mangini's you can't, all the mics are on, And on Distant Memories, Mangini and the engineers had a great idea to mic the Toms separately, and the drums now sound more full. Could also be a reason why Mangini raised his cymbals, and he says its because he likes to challenge himself just to say that. :biggrin: But, it's really to get a better mix from the cymbal mics without getting bleed from the other drums, so they can sound clearer and crispier.
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OTOH, I don't think I've ever seen MP say anything nice about MM since the DT split.
You mean like this quote from the April 2012 issue of Rhythm magazine?
What are your thoughts about Mike Mangini getting the Dream Theater gig?
"It’s still very hard for me to see somebody else in the drumseat in Dream Theater. That was my baby and my band for a quarter of a century. Honestly, I didn’t want to see anybody in that drum seat. I would have preferred to have taken a break. With all that being said. if there’s anybody that’s going to be in that seat, I think Mike is the right guy. He’s an old friend of mine and I know he was very concerned about respecting my legacy. Everything I’ve seen him say about me and my role for all those years in Dream Theater has been incredibly respectful and I thank him for that. I don’t hold against him that he took the gig. It’s an amazing opportunity. How could he not? I find my days are much happier when I just concentrate on my future and let my past with Dream Theater be the past. It’s something I’m very proud of and something that will always be a part of me, but it’s 2012 and it’s time for me to move on and write the next few chapters of my career.”
Well, I hadn't seen that one :lol
But I did see one from around the time TSOAD was released where he was asked about DT and he kept saying things like "their drummer..." and I found it quite annoying that he couldn't just call him by his name, they were (are?) supposed to be friends.
Why can't MP mention Mangini as "their drummer"? Mangini is Dream Theater's Drummer, and if he's talking about Dream Theater, he is referencing Mangini as Dream Theater's Drummer, by saying "Their Drummer". I think we all know who Dream Theaters drummer is at this point. And I am assuming MP assumes people who are listening/reading that interview know who Dream Theaters drummer is. So he doesn't have to mention him by name.
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These arguments of who has more feel are always unproductive. When you get to a high enough level of musicianship, it all shakes out according to taste. Most people would agree that MP and MM have more feel than your average youtube cover drummer who's struggling with rhythm. That's where objectivity ends and taste enters the picture, and that includes factors such as "who ~gets into it~ more" and "whose arms produce a more visually interesting movement between the shoulder and the tip of the drum stick when I watch them". A blind listen of, say, a short song in 4/4 produced in a similar way wouldn't have an indiscriminate winner.
Seriously, there's people out there who say John Petrucci has no feel. Literally what would you even say to them. "Has no feel" = "doesn't make me feel as many feels as other people".
I'm pretty sure this is the last word for me (meaning, this says it all). FOR ME - and I'm not a drummer, I'm a nobody who listens to this music to feel something I didn't before I put it on - I get more "return" from Portnoy. There are DT(P) songs I'll be listening to, hear a drum part/fill, and rewind it to hear that part again, because I felt something. I can't name one DT(M) that I've done that for (I have rewound to rehear something that seemed... odd to me, though). It's me. It's my taste, it's what I want to hear. Doesn't make one or the other "better" absolutely, only better FOR ME. Would that more people acknowledge that distinction (I'm not really referring to anyone here, just speaking generally).
That's exactly where I am in this discussion. It's not about which Mike is the better drummer, it's not about feel but all about personal taste. I enjoy MM's live presence and energy but in the end I also get more 'return and reward' from MP's playing.
And to be completely honest part of that also has to do with the MM albums all being among my least favorite DT-albums.
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I will say this again, MM has gained a bit of "fame" over being a so called robotic drummer, apart from his different style, also due to bad production decisions.
And i believe JP has a big fault on this side, given the fact that we had to get 3 albums to get a good drum sound from Mike.
I mean, listen to Elements of Persuation and tell me MM has no feel.
I've watched him play live on a clinic where he also played Dream Theater songs, and the difference was night and day with the studio versions.
Again. On those, he wasn't using the kit he uses when he records for DT. That alone effects how the mix will sound. The kit he uses for DT, is actually the kit HE designed and always wanted to use in a band, but never felt the right band to use it in until he was welcomed to the family. And that kit is not engineer user friendly.
It's why that "The Enemy Inside" drum playthrough sounds better as well. He is using a kit that is easier to mix the cymbals, kick, and snare, without getting bleed from the other cymbals/drums/etc. Also, I don't think he wanted to bring that kit with him just for a clinic, and have to set it up and mic it.
Even though Portnoy's kit is big, You can shut the other mics off on the kit he isn't using. On Mangini's you can't, all the mics are on, And on Distant Memories, Mangini and the engineers had a great idea to mic the Toms separately, and the drums now sound more full. Could also be a reason why Mangini raised his cymbals, and he says its because he likes to challenge himself just to say that. :biggrin: But, it's really to get a better mix from the cymbal mics without getting bleed from the other drums, so they can sound clearer and crispier.
Huh? I have no idea what you're talking about with much of that.
He can use any kit he wants with DT. Did he state somewhere that he was forced to use an inferior kit against his wishes or something? MM likes his drums to sound a certain way and that might not translate well in the studio for a DT record. And what are you talking about with muting mics? No one is muting MP's mics to make him sound better and not being able to do that with MM. They're different drums with different heads in different tunings played differently. It's not that MP had some super freedom that MM was denied.
And of course they mic'd his toms individually on the new release. They are (or at least SHOULD be) micing all of his drums individually on every single release, studio or live. That has nothing to do with anything unless I've missed some statement that, until this new DVD, they used one mic to record multiple drums at the same time and didn't give them individual mics. In which case...well that would be just stupid.
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I will say this again, MM has gained a bit of "fame" over being a so called robotic drummer, apart from his different style, also due to bad production decisions.
And i believe JP has a big fault on this side, given the fact that we had to get 3 albums to get a good drum sound from Mike.
I mean, listen to Elements of Persuation and tell me MM has no feel.
I've watched him play live on a clinic where he also played Dream Theater songs, and the difference was night and day with the studio versions.
Again. On those, he wasn't using the kit he uses when he records for DT. That alone effects how the mix will sound. The kit he uses for DT, is actually the kit HE designed and always wanted to use in a band, but never felt the right band to use it in until he was welcomed to the family. And that kit is not engineer user friendly.
It's why that "The Enemy Inside" drum playthrough sounds better as well. He is using a kit that is easier to mix the cymbals, kick, and snare, without getting bleed from the other cymbals/drums/etc. Also, I don't think he wanted to bring that kit with him just for a clinic, and have to set it up and mic it.
Even though Portnoy's kit is big, You can shut the other mics off on the kit he isn't using. On Mangini's you can't, all the mics are on, And on Distant Memories, Mangini and the engineers had a great idea to mic the Toms separately, and the drums now sound more full. Could also be a reason why Mangini raised his cymbals, and he says its because he likes to challenge himself just to say that. :biggrin: But, it's really to get a better mix from the cymbal mics without getting bleed from the other drums, so they can sound clearer and crispier.
Huh? I have no idea what you're talking about with much of that.
He can use any kit he wants with DT. Did he state somewhere that he was forced to use an inferior kit against his wishes or something? MM likes his drums to sound a certain way and that might not translate well in the studio for a DT record. And what are you talking about with muting mics? No one is muting MP's mics to make him sound better and not being able to do that with MM. They're different drums with different heads in different tunings played differently. It's not that MP had some super freedom that MM was denied.
And of course they mic'd his toms individually on the new release. They are (or at least SHOULD be) micing all of his drums individually on every single release, studio or live. That has nothing to do with anything unless I've missed some statement that, until this new DVD, they used one mic to record multiple drums at the same time and didn't give them individual mics. In which case...well that would be just stupid.
On Elements of Persuasion, I don't think he recorded with the kit setup he uses in Dream Theater. Plus, he had a different Producer and Engineers for EoP.
The mic thing, was about the set up live. I am sure, they muted the mics that were not in use at the time, like on the cymbals and bass drum on MP's "progressive kit" side while he is on the "metal kit" side. While MM doesn't have sides, per se, and is all on one stool at all times.
And I am meaning how they mic'd his Toms from the Bottom heads instead of the Top Heads, on Distant Memories. (I can't find where I heard that from, I think from a youtube video, or one of Mangini's Instagrams).
Found a Youtube Video of him going through his Live kit. (https://youtu.be/uvxjRt-yvLQ)
“This record [the new DT album ‘Distance Over Time’] unfolded differently than any other one that I’ve done – because I was a part of that engineering process by default. Over the years, talking to Jimmy T [James Meslin, engineer] about frequencies I just don’t want in my drums – he soaked up all that and then did his thing, basically.
“I used to wonder why my sound got interpreted so differently than how I experienced it. But it’s just because people are in a different physical space. The drums sound differently from, like, three feet in front than 10 feet in front than behind the kit than down low than up above. Jimmy T put some microphones near my ears – let’s get some behind me and lower so those mics are picking up what I’m experiencing.
https://metalwani.com/2019/02/dream-theaters-mike-mangini-explains-his-drum-sound-throws-light-on-claims-of-terrible-drum-sound-on-distance-over-time.html
On D/T, according to Wiki, they didn't have an Engineer. They had Jimmy T, and he is listed as "Recording". :lol He has been working with them since DT though, and doing their live sounds as well.
I will say, he is the best thing to happen for their sound. Both D/T and Distant Memories sound amazing. The new album should sound just as good, if not even better, now we know how much he is working with the band. :metal
Edit: Here's another good one...https://youtu.be/H7UlBm-iuP8
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OTOH, I don't think I've ever seen MP say anything nice about MM since the DT split.
You mean like this quote from the April 2012 issue of Rhythm magazine?
What are your thoughts about Mike Mangini getting the Dream Theater gig?
"It’s still very hard for me to see somebody else in the drumseat in Dream Theater. That was my baby and my band for a quarter of a century. Honestly, I didn’t want to see anybody in that drum seat. I would have preferred to have taken a break. With all that being said. if there’s anybody that’s going to be in that seat, I think Mike is the right guy. He’s an old friend of mine and I know he was very concerned about respecting my legacy. Everything I’ve seen him say about me and my role for all those years in Dream Theater has been incredibly respectful and I thank him for that. I don’t hold against him that he took the gig. It’s an amazing opportunity. How could he not? I find my days are much happier when I just concentrate on my future and let my past with Dream Theater be the past. It’s something I’m very proud of and something that will always be a part of me, but it’s 2012 and it’s time for me to move on and write the next few chapters of my career.”
Well, I hadn't seen that one :lol
But I did see one from around the time TSOAD was released where he was asked about DT and he kept saying things like "their drummer..." and I found it quite annoying that he couldn't just call him by his name, they were (are?) supposed to be friends.
Please don't take offense here; I'm commenting on the idea, not the person presenting the idea, but why? What does it matter to you? If we're at the level of critiquing one third party because of the way they refer to another third party, we're really scraping the bottom of the barrel. People have their way about it. Mike M. is really the only person that has any standing to be put out about that, and frankly, I'd probably say the same thing to him: control what you can control, and accept what you can't and move on.
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“I used to wonder why my sound got interpreted so differently than how I experienced it. But it’s just because people are in a different physical space. The drums sound differently from, like, three feet in front than 10 feet in front than behind the kit than down low than up above. Jimmy T put some microphones near my ears – let’s get some behind me and lower so those mics are picking up what I’m experiencing.
So... basically they're recording Mike's farts? :) :) :)
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“I used to wonder why my sound got interpreted so differently than how I experienced it. But it’s just because people are in a different physical space. The drums sound differently from, like, three feet in front than 10 feet in front than behind the kit than down low than up above. Jimmy T put some microphones near my ears – let’s get some behind me and lower so those mics are picking up what I’m experiencing.
So... basically they're recording Mike's farts? :) :) :)
They use those for the click tracks.. :lol :lol :metal