DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site

General => Political and Religious Forum (aka the echo chamber) => Topic started by: TAC on February 17, 2020, 09:15:00 AM

Title: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: TAC on February 17, 2020, 09:15:00 AM
So this is something I've been thinking about for a while now, especially after hearing things like "cancelling student debt". I read this article this morning and it convinced me to finally make this thread.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/personalfinance/dealerships-give-car-buyers-some-advice-just-stop-paying-your-loan/ar-BB102JDd?li=BBnbfcL

I'm not planning on really discussing the article, but more about discussing taking out auto loans that you cannot afford. I recently saw an ad where a dealership was giving out 7 or 8 year loans.  WTF??

But I also want to address the Student Debt issue as well.

To me, these are self inflicted wounds. If you graduate with 200k in student loans, isn't that your problem?

I'm sensitive to people who have lost their job unexpectedly or suffer an unforeseen illness, but don't people have some kind of control over their debt?

Again, I'm not disparaging anyone who runs up credit card debt while they are on hard times.

But honestly, when I hear people bitch about their student loans or auto loans, I don't have a ton of sympathy. It comes down to good choices. We have a family we are friends with and they are sending their daughter to an expensive college, for a degree that will likely take at least a decade and a half to pay off.



What are the answers, especially with student debt. Do we limit loan amounts based on income? Or potential income? Do we allow kids and family's to take out ridiculous loans? Where's the personal responsibility? Where's the legal responsibility? Is student lending predatory?


My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: El Barto on February 17, 2020, 09:32:47 AM
So this is something I've been thinking about for a while now, especially after hearing things like "cancelling student debt". I read this article this morning and it convinced me to finally make this thread.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/personalfinance/dealerships-give-car-buyers-some-advice-just-stop-paying-your-loan/ar-BB102JDd?li=BBnbfcL

I'm not planning on really discussing the article, but more about discussing taking out auto loans that you cannot afford. I recently saw an ad where a dealership was giving out 7 or 8 year loans.  WTF??

But I also want to address the Student Debt issue as well.

To me, these are self inflicted wounds. If you graduate with 200k in student loans, isn't that your problem?

I'm sensitive to people who have lost their job unexpectedly or suffer an unforeseen illness, but don't people have some kind of control over their debt?

Again, I'm not disparaging anyone who runs up credit card debt while they are on hard times.

But honestly, when I hear people bitch about their student loans or auto loans, I don't have a ton of sympathy. It comes down to good choices. We have a family we are friends with and they are sending their daughter to an expensive college, for a degree that will likely take at least a decade and a half to pay off.



What are the answers, especially with student debt. Do we limit loan amounts based on income? Or potential income? Do we allow kids and family's to take out ridiculous loans? Where's the personal responsibility? Where's the legal responsibility? Is student lending predatory?


My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Most lending is predatory by nature. Remember when you got your first credit card? I'll bet it wasn't the day after your 18th birthday. You had to establish some sort of credit, and you couldn't expect more than a pittance as your credit limit. I was 21 (Member Since 1991). Now they give cards away like they were nothing because it's far better to stick people with a cycle of debt and live off of the interest than own only responsible customers who pay their bills regularly. If you're Citibank who do you want as a customer, yourself or some 18 year old girl heading off to college for the first time? The truth is that some people are more responsible than others, and some people have a better grasp of economics than others. When you specifically look for the irresponsible dipshits because they'll make you more money, you're a predator.

Sticking with you, weren't you conditioned to the fact that if you didn't go to college you'd be a failure? Of course that's wrong, but wasn't it a recurring theme during your youth? Don't know if it's still the case, probably less so, but I suspect it's still commonplace. Also, keep in mind that college was cheap when we were out of highschool. Tuition has skyrocketed well past the standard rate of inflation.

Myself, I'm not interested in writing off student debt. There is some element of personal responsibility at play here, but mostly I just think it'd be unfair to the people who are paying or have already paid theirs off. I am interested in working out some kind of deal where college debt isn't crippling people and moving towards a system where advanced education becomes more affordable, though. And frankly, the lenders should be on the hook for a big chunk of it. If you make stupid and/or predatory loans you should be on the hook for it. That also falls under the umbrella of personal responsibility.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Adami on February 17, 2020, 09:42:21 AM
I have a decent amount of student debt. Not nearly as much as many, and way more than others. It was all my choice. 100%.

But taking out the debt isn't really the problem, it's just how expensive education has become. I was fortunate enough to have been able to pay for my BA and both my MA's out of pocket. But my Doctorate cost me almost 200,000 dollars.

Is it a choice? Sure! But that's not a justification for the insane costs of education.

So the issue isn't necessarily the loans, it's how expensive education has become.

And yes, for some undergrad, there are ways to spend less. But those options are not as plentiful as people think. And scholarships/grants don't exist for most students. So a select few can get a good price or even a free ride, but most people have to pay full price.

And grad school has even less options for cutting cost unless you're in a field that pays you to go to school, many of which are not. So we can either become a country where only the rich and privileged are afforded education, creating an even more giant social class gap, or we can make it more affordable for ordinary people to get education beyond a trade school. We have plenty of kids doing trade schools or not going to college. Most Americans don't have a four year degree, so it's not like we're over saturating the education system. Less than 10% have a Masters, and I think something like 2-4% have a doctorate.

So again, it's already super selective. Making it damn near impossible for the non-wealthy to get educated is a very very bad idea.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: TAC on February 17, 2020, 09:45:10 AM
Sticking with you, weren't you conditioned to the fact that if you didn't go to college you'd be a failure? Of course that's wrong, but wasn't it a recurring theme during your youth? Don't know if it's still the case, probably less so, but I suspect it's still commonplace. Also, keep in mind that college was cheap when we were out of highschool. Tuition has skyrocketed well past the standard rate of inflation.

My father was adamant I went to a 4 year school.

We've seen the full range of college prices just on our tours so far. So we do know that (some) college is quite affordable.



Myself, I'm not interested in writing off student debt. There is some element of personal responsibility at play here, but mostly I just think it'd be unfair to the people who are paying or have already paid theirs off. I am interested in working out some kind of deal where college debt isn't crippling people and moving towards a system where advanced education becomes more affordable, though. And frankly, the lenders should be on the hook for a big chunk of it. If you make stupid and/or predatory loans you should be on the hook for it. That also falls under the umbrella of personal responsibility.

See, this is where I am. I'm on board with all of this. But I have a feeling that if there's a cap on how much can be borrowed, colleges will truly squeeze out these folks during their admission process, if they're not already.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Chino on February 17, 2020, 09:46:24 AM
My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Not every student taking on loans has parents like you. My ex-GF/GF had an entire family behind her filling her head with tlies like "Borrow whatever you need, as long as you pay them $10 a month, they can't come after you for anything" and "$100K isn't that much money once you're in your field". She's approaching 30 and still has about $80K in student loans and has pretty much accepted that she will have next to nothing when she retires because she has to allocate all her money toward the interest.

I get it. All of these students could have done math, but there's a huge underlying lying element of being inexperienced with life here that doesn't get talked about enough. Very few 17 year olds have any concept of how expensive life truly is. Very few have any idea what paying off $100K in debt actually requires. I've been a homeowner for almost 6 years now and am still constantly blindsided by how much living actually costs. No one warned these kids. Parents and schools encouraged it. I see first hand every day what student loan debt has done to my generation. It's not pretty. It could have been avoided and it wasn't. I hope the generation after mine tackles higher education differently.

I don't know if this is the time to teach a generation a lesson. We've bailed out the auto industry. We're bailing out the farmers. It might be time to bail out the students. I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income. I know a blanket clearing of the debt would never fly, but cancelling the interest gets my vote. Let everything they pay go toward principal. If you paid off your debt properly, kudos to you. Pat yourself on the back.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: TAC on February 17, 2020, 09:47:09 AM
I have a decent amount of student debt. Not nearly as much as many, and way more than others. It was all my choice. 100%.

But taking out the debt isn't really the problem, it's just how expensive education has become. I was fortunate enough to have been able to pay for my BA and both my MA's out of pocket. But my Doctorate cost me almost 200,000 dollars.

Is it a choice? Sure! But that's not a justification for the insane costs of education.

So the issue isn't necessarily the loans, it's how expensive education has become.

And yes, for some undergrad, there are ways to spend less. But those options are not as plentiful as people think. And scholarships/grants don't exist for most students. So a select few can get a good price or even a free ride, but most people have to pay full price.

And grad school has even less options for cutting cost unless you're in a field that pays you to go to school, many of which are not. So we can either become a country where only the rich and privileged are afforded education, creating an even more giant social class gap, or we can make it more affordable for ordinary people to get education beyond a trade school. We have plenty of kids doing trade schools or not going to college. Most Americans don't have a four year degree, so it's not like we're over saturating the education system. Less than 10% have a Masters, and I think something like 2-4% have a doctorate.

So again, it's already super selective. Making it damn near impossible for the non-wealthy to get educated is a very very bad idea.


I agree. But as long as we can loan out to students, we can charge a ton. Seems a system change is in order. Which is why I placed this here in stead of GMD.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 17, 2020, 09:50:05 AM
I'm actually with you 100% on this.   The discussion for me - especially about debt in general - really does border on "entitlement".   I know for me, I live in a very tough economic environment.  Blue state, with a former governor with national aspirations (we're deeply in a deficit, yet his last "State of the State" speech was almost entirely about identity politics, and the notion of "Connecticut Fair", which seemed to me to translate into "do what you want, and we'll pay for it!").  I travel to other parts of the country, and sometimes I go back to my hotel and weep at how much I pay for basic living expenses here in the northeast (I'm kidding.  Maybe.) 

I just had two kids go through the admissions process for post-high school education.   One opted for a trade - aesthetician/cosmetologist - and one opted for college - where she's a current freshman.   I know for me, it was about homework.  Doing the due diligence, and following through on the tens of scholarship and grant options that are out there.   The first student we will largely avoid any debt on.   There was some but it will be paid soon, and we're helping her with that (she couldn't do it on her own, but that's a function of her douchebag husband more than anything else, also her choice).   I might have a modicum of debt when the second is done, depending on how I play it.   No one is saying it's easy, or that it doesn't take effort.  It takes research, it takes phone calls, it takes getting involved, it takes reaching out to people who know more than you, and it takes hard conversations.   But it CAN be done, and I'm not sure why the entire country - well, we all know it's the "1% who has to pay their fair share" - has to bear  that burden.   

I have zero appetite for relieving consumer debt - our fetish, our mania for "shiny things" is ridiculous in the extreme - but even if we were to discuss relieving student debt burdens, I would at a minimum limit it to the best reasonable deal.  Let me explain:  I have a student with a x.xx GPA and a y,yyy SAT score, and that would put them in a tier.   For that tier, and a general BA or BS degree, given income brackets and what not, it could be assumed that through a combination of state schools, community colleges (if need be), etc. you would be burdened with a minimum of, say, $z,000 in tuition costs.   If you opt to go to the foo-foo boutique college - Elan is one, Salve Regina another, I'm sure there are 100's more across this great land - that's on you.  ANY relief that might be granted would be limited to $z,000, and the difference between that and your precious kid's status symbol would be on you.

Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: TAC on February 17, 2020, 09:50:14 AM
My ex-GF/GF

Your ex girlfriend/girlfriend??

Don't derail the thread. :lol
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Adami on February 17, 2020, 09:53:38 AM
Oh I'd be totally good with that.

I think education and places like college or university play a very important role outside of being a job factory.

There are millions of kids out there who are going to be plumbers, or electricians, or car mechanics or what have you and can go to trade schools and already do.

There are tons of kids out there who are going to go into extremely profitable fields that will give them a ton of money but require higher education. So that's not the biggest issue.

However, there are also tons of kids who will become artists, writers, scholars, professors, psychologists (sup), scientists in non-profitable fields, etc that need college or university to 1) achieve those goals, and 2) Figure out what/who they want to be. We can't expect all 18 year olds to pick a life course and stick to it forever. If I were forced to do that, I'd be an audio engineer somewhere, miserable. But instead I used college to figure out who I am, and now love what I do, even if it doesn't pay a ton.

If we look at education only as a means of producing jobs to produce profit, then we're failing as a society. In my opinion. We're never going to run out of people who do that, but we also need the other folks. We need writers, and thinkers, and artists, and so forth to function as a healthy society/culture/civilization. And right now we're trying to cut a lot of that out and make it all about profit and production for profit.

But the cost is also not helping us. Right now, millionaires can easily send their kids to the best schools. They will, in turn, become the most powerful people in their fields by mere virtue of coming from money. While people who can't afford that never get the chance. It's not a system that can maintain. It will collapse.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: El Barto on February 17, 2020, 09:57:09 AM

I have zero appetite for relieving consumer debt - our fetish, our mania for "shiny things" is ridiculous in the extreme - but even if we were to discuss relieving student debt burdens, I would at a minimum limit it to the best reasonable deal.  Let me explain:  I have a student with a x.xx GPA and a y,yyy SAT score, and that would put them in a tier.   For that tier, and a general BA or BS degree, given income brackets and what not, it could be assumed that through a combination of state schools, community colleges (if need be), etc. you would be burdened with a minimum of, say, $z,000 in tuition costs.   If you opt to go to the foo-foo boutique college - Elan is one, Salve Regina another, I'm sure there are 100's more across this great land - that's on you.  ANY relief that might be granted would be limited to $z,000, and the difference between that and your precious kid's status symbol would be on you.
This is along the lines of what I'd like, but there needs to be some retroactive relief involved. What you're suggesting would have forward effects, as it would change the decision making process. Yet when you've got people saddled with hundreds of grand in debt and no real means of paying it off, "you made your bed, now sleep in it" doesn't really help anybody. There should certainly be some of that, but keeping them in chains is counterproductive.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 17, 2020, 09:58:37 AM
My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Not every student taking on loans has parents like you. My ex-GF/GF had an entire family behind her filling her head with tlies like "Borrow whatever you need, as long as you pay them $10 a month, they can't come after you for anything" and "$100K isn't that much money once you're in your field". She's approaching 30 and still has about $80K in student loans and has pretty much accepted that she will have next to nothing when she retires because she has to allocate all her money toward the interest.

I get it. All of these students could have done math, but there's a huge underlying lying element of being inexperienced with life here that doesn't get talked about enough. Very few 17 year olds have any concept of how expensive life truly is. Very few have any idea what paying off $100K in debt actually requires. I've been a homeowner for almost 6 years now and am still constantly blindsided by how much living actually costs. No one warned these kids. Parents and schools encouraged it. I see first hand every day what student loan debt has done to my generation. It's not pretty. It could have been avoided and it wasn't. I hope the generation after mine tackles higher education differently.

I don't know if this is the time to teach a generation a lesson. We've bailed out the auto industry. We're bailing out the farmers. It might be time to bail out the students. I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income. I know a blanket clearing of the debt would never fly, but cancelling the interest gets my vote. Let everything they pay go toward principle. If you paid off your debt properly, kudos to you. Pat yourself on the back.

This isn't just to you, Chino, but to every one here:  why is the answer, then, always a knee-jerk "let's get someone else to pay for it!"?   Why does the answer always seem to be "well, let's blame someone else?"

I can quibble with some of the things said here - at least undergrad, I think the options are FAR greater than people think, and I think that there ARE affordable options to get a four-year degree out there.  They just take work, research, homework and diligence to get.   But generally, we're not talking JUST about "devil corporations looking to fuck people over!".  Federal ParentPLUS loans are reasonable and affordable.  Basic math, basic economics, ought to be a part of a curriculum to get a high school degree.  Our society is more complicated, if we think that important, it ought to be part of what every kid learns.   

For me, the answer isn't the one that REDUCES personal responsibility, it's the one that makes it possible to take more informed personal responsibility.  Why does that seem to be such an anathema to some people?   I totally get it; if you get hit by a bus, or some other life-event changes the game transformationally, we can deal with that separately.  But just because you had an insatiable dream to be a Yalie or a Fighting Irish, doesn't entitle you to victim status down the road. 
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 17, 2020, 09:59:12 AM
My ex-GF/GF

Your ex girlfriend/girlfriend??

Don't derail the thread. :lol

I caught that too, and went and got a box of popcorn.  :)
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Adami on February 17, 2020, 10:00:12 AM
My ex-GF/GF

Your ex girlfriend/girlfriend??

Don't derail the thread. :lol

I caught that too, and went and got a box of popcorn.  :)

My money's on twins.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Adami on February 17, 2020, 10:03:06 AM
My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Not every student taking on loans has parents like you. My ex-GF/GF had an entire family behind her filling her head with tlies like "Borrow whatever you need, as long as you pay them $10 a month, they can't come after you for anything" and "$100K isn't that much money once you're in your field". She's approaching 30 and still has about $80K in student loans and has pretty much accepted that she will have next to nothing when she retires because she has to allocate all her money toward the interest.

I get it. All of these students could have done math, but there's a huge underlying lying element of being inexperienced with life here that doesn't get talked about enough. Very few 17 year olds have any concept of how expensive life truly is. Very few have any idea what paying off $100K in debt actually requires. I've been a homeowner for almost 6 years now and am still constantly blindsided by how much living actually costs. No one warned these kids. Parents and schools encouraged it. I see first hand every day what student loan debt has done to my generation. It's not pretty. It could have been avoided and it wasn't. I hope the generation after mine tackles higher education differently.

I don't know if this is the time to teach a generation a lesson. We've bailed out the auto industry. We're bailing out the farmers. It might be time to bail out the students. I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income. I know a blanket clearing of the debt would never fly, but cancelling the interest gets my vote. Let everything they pay go toward principle. If you paid off your debt properly, kudos to you. Pat yourself on the back.

This isn't just to you, Chino, but to every one here:  why is the answer, then, always a knee-jerk "let's get someone else to pay for it!"?   Why does the answer always seem to be "well, let's blame someone else?"

I can quibble with some of the things said here - at least undergrad, I think the options are FAR greater than people think, and I think that there ARE affordable options to get a four-year degree out there.  They just take work, research, homework and diligence to get.   But generally, we're not talking JUST about "devil corporations looking to fuck people over!".  Federal ParentPLUS loans are reasonable and affordable.  Basic math, basic economics, ought to be a part of a curriculum to get a high school degree.  Our society is more complicated, if we think that important, it ought to be part of what every kid learns.   

For me, the answer isn't the one that REDUCES personal responsibility, it's the one that makes it possible to take more informed personal responsibility.  Why does that seem to be such an anathema to some people?   I totally get it; if you get hit by a bus, or some other life-event changes the game transformationally, we can deal with that separately.  But just because you had an insatiable dream to be a Yalie or a Fighting Irish, doesn't entitle you to victim status down the road.

Yes, "If you just did XYZ, you'd be fine!" makes sense, but like Bart says, it's not really helping anyone. Just telling everyone who didn't do the perfect thing to piss off.

We could easily say to all addicts "well, next time don't do drugs!" and tell them to piss off. I could tell all of my clients to just make better decisions, no therapy for them! But again....why?

Maybe it's the socialist in me disagreeing with the capitalist in you, but I have a strong desire to make life better for as many other people as possible, as opposed to strictly enforcing personal responsibility at the detriment of their well-being (within reason).
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: The Walrus on February 17, 2020, 10:09:56 AM
I regret my college choices. I bought into the crap about going to college right after high school even if you don't know what you want... I'd say a good 20% of my English courses the last year of high school were replaced with college lecturers coming in speaking about how great (and expensive) their school is, urging us to go there and look for as many loans as we could (because it is expensive). By the time I finished my associate's degree I had used up my scholarships, burnt out on my passion (what I supposedly thought I wanted to do for a career), and had no idea what I wanted to do with my life, I was more confused than ever. I have other friends who went to 4 year universities and are saddled with debt; some enjoy their jobs, some still haven't found jobs, some dropped out, some think their temporal and monetary investment was worth it, others don't, some didn't go to college at all and now have a big house and are making bank in trades...

I wish secondary education was more affordable, and I wish everybody would stop pushing it on everybody. Not everyone needs to go to college. I wish it was more affordable and easier for someone like me to go back because I desperately want to do something with computers and programming or networking, things I could be good at. I am simply not good with my hands and tools and doing manual labor - my brain is not wired for it, and I've tried very hard to do those things. I have no doubt that if I had affordable education and/or training in those things that I could be a very good worker in those fields.

I wish it was like my college professors' old days. They always talked about being able to work a standard job over the summer and be able to pay for a whole year of college with that money. I couldn't even do that with my community college these days.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 17, 2020, 10:13:55 AM
Oh I'd be totally good with that.

I think education and places like college or university play a very important role outside of being a job factory.

There are millions of kids out there who are going to be plumbers, or electricians, or car mechanics or what have you and can go to trade schools and already do.

There are tons of kids out there who are going to go into extremely profitable fields that will give them a ton of money but require higher education. So that's not the biggest issue.

However, there are also tons of kids who will become artists, writers, scholars, professors, psychologists (sup), scientists in non-profitable fields, etc that need college or university to 1) achieve those goals, and 2) Figure out what/who they want to be. We can't expect all 18 year olds to pick a life course and stick to it forever. If I were forced to do that, I'd be an audio engineer somewhere, miserable. But instead I used college to figure out who I am, and now love what I do, even if it doesn't pay a ton.

If we look at education only as a means of producing jobs to produce profit, then we're failing as a society. In my opinion. We're never going to run out of people who do that, but we also need the other folks. We need writers, and thinkers, and artists, and so forth to function as a healthy society/culture/civilization. And right now we're trying to cut a lot of that out and make it all about profit and production for profit.

I love all of this.  My wife - love her madly, but...  - doesn't have a college degree, and neither does anyone in her immediate family (not counting trade schools).   She has bought into the "it's for rich kids and not necessary" idea.  I've personally got more degrees than everyone in my immediate family combined (brothers, parents, kids), but I also make a multiple of everyone in my immediate family combined.   And we argued about this, but my thought was (for the aethetician) to go to a school for a year.   Live in a dorm with people that don't live in your town, county, state.  Stay up late, sit in the hall and talk the meaning of life until 4 am.  Go to class hungover and see what happens.  Meet people, see what the world has to offer.   I got shot down on that - she got married instead and hates her life and what it's become - but I maintain that college is more than "learning to be a corporate douchebag".   I grew up more in that five years (switched majors; finished the entire engineering curriculum in three years) than in the entire rest of my life combined. 

But then you write:

Quote
But the cost is also not helping us. Right now, millionaires can easily send their kids to the best schools. They will, in turn, become the most powerful people in their fields by mere virtue of coming from money. While people who can't afford that never get the chance. It's not a system that can maintain. It will collapse.

I don't disagree that it's TRENDING to a point where it can't be maintained and will collapse, but we're not there yet.   There are 100 colleges/universities within reasonable driving distance to me here in Connecticut that are eminently affordable, and many of them actually assess tuition on a sliding scale based on need.   Now, we can quibble about that scale and how it applies, but it's there.   My kid's first choice was an Ivy League school, and while I probably wouldn't have gotten the break that some would, they were CRYSTAL CLEAR in their entry pitch:  money will NOT be the reason a qualified student will not get a degree from this university.  They did the FAFSA bullshit, found out what you were eligible for in terms of student loans, and they pretty much RELIEVED that from the tuition.   Granted, other schools, one famous Jesuit school in the northeast, was less forgiving.   But the options are out there. 

This goes back to other things, though.   For many, high schools are turning into a joke (a cousin of my wife's graduated from high school about five years ago; HE CANNOT READ) and not preparing many of our kids for the next step.   I know TAC wrote a couple months ago about how our kids are better and brighter than we give them credit for - one of the best posts I've ever read here on DTF, by the way - and that's true, but I also think the divide is getting greater as well.   In my high school - grad. class of 285 - there were maybe 25 kids that were going wherever they wanted, and another 15 or 20 kids that would be lucky to be ditchdiggers, with everyone else somewhere in between.  I don't think those numbers hold today.  I think that "middle group" is a lot smaller, and that bottom group is a lot bigger.    That's not a tuition problem, that's not a college problem.  That's something else entirely. 
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 17, 2020, 10:18:55 AM
My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Not every student taking on loans has parents like you. My ex-GF/GF had an entire family behind her filling her head with tlies like "Borrow whatever you need, as long as you pay them $10 a month, they can't come after you for anything" and "$100K isn't that much money once you're in your field". She's approaching 30 and still has about $80K in student loans and has pretty much accepted that she will have next to nothing when she retires because she has to allocate all her money toward the interest.

I get it. All of these students could have done math, but there's a huge underlying lying element of being inexperienced with life here that doesn't get talked about enough. Very few 17 year olds have any concept of how expensive life truly is. Very few have any idea what paying off $100K in debt actually requires. I've been a homeowner for almost 6 years now and am still constantly blindsided by how much living actually costs. No one warned these kids. Parents and schools encouraged it. I see first hand every day what student loan debt has done to my generation. It's not pretty. It could have been avoided and it wasn't. I hope the generation after mine tackles higher education differently.

I don't know if this is the time to teach a generation a lesson. We've bailed out the auto industry. We're bailing out the farmers. It might be time to bail out the students. I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income. I know a blanket clearing of the debt would never fly, but cancelling the interest gets my vote. Let everything they pay go toward principle. If you paid off your debt properly, kudos to you. Pat yourself on the back.

This isn't just to you, Chino, but to every one here:  why is the answer, then, always a knee-jerk "let's get someone else to pay for it!"?   Why does the answer always seem to be "well, let's blame someone else?"

I can quibble with some of the things said here - at least undergrad, I think the options are FAR greater than people think, and I think that there ARE affordable options to get a four-year degree out there.  They just take work, research, homework and diligence to get.   But generally, we're not talking JUST about "devil corporations looking to fuck people over!".  Federal ParentPLUS loans are reasonable and affordable.  Basic math, basic economics, ought to be a part of a curriculum to get a high school degree.  Our society is more complicated, if we think that important, it ought to be part of what every kid learns.   

For me, the answer isn't the one that REDUCES personal responsibility, it's the one that makes it possible to take more informed personal responsibility.  Why does that seem to be such an anathema to some people?   I totally get it; if you get hit by a bus, or some other life-event changes the game transformationally, we can deal with that separately.  But just because you had an insatiable dream to be a Yalie or a Fighting Irish, doesn't entitle you to victim status down the road.

Yes, "If you just did XYZ, you'd be fine!" makes sense, but like Bart says, it's not really helping anyone. Just telling everyone who didn't do the perfect thing to piss off.

We could easily say to all addicts "well, next time don't do drugs!" and tell them to piss off. I could tell all of my clients to just make better decisions, no therapy for them! But again....why?

That's not at all what I'm saying.   Not even close.   If you want to use a drug analogy, I'm more saying "don't implement a war on drugs; that's just closing the barn door after the horse has left".   I'm not expecting "perfect", but I am expecting hat we not just expect "perfect" to fall in our lap from the great savior "government".  Do SOMETHING about mitigating your exposure.   We're not even TALKING about the other variables; find me one debate, one speech, one appearance by ANY Democratic candidate (I say Democratic, because they are the party largely pushing the "free tuition" idea) that addresses ANY of the other issues we've mentioned here besides "tuition relief".   They're not talking about the cost of education except as a reason to push "tuition relief".  They're not talking about beefing up the state school systems across the country.  They're not talking about revamping high school curricula to make it possible to make better - read: more informed - decisions.   
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: El Barto on February 17, 2020, 10:19:37 AM
My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Not every student taking on loans has parents like you. My ex-GF/GF had an entire family behind her filling her head with tlies like "Borrow whatever you need, as long as you pay them $10 a month, they can't come after you for anything" and "$100K isn't that much money once you're in your field". She's approaching 30 and still has about $80K in student loans and has pretty much accepted that she will have next to nothing when she retires because she has to allocate all her money toward the interest.

I get it. All of these students could have done math, but there's a huge underlying lying element of being inexperienced with life here that doesn't get talked about enough. Very few 17 year olds have any concept of how expensive life truly is. Very few have any idea what paying off $100K in debt actually requires. I've been a homeowner for almost 6 years now and am still constantly blindsided by how much living actually costs. No one warned these kids. Parents and schools encouraged it. I see first hand every day what student loan debt has done to my generation. It's not pretty. It could have been avoided and it wasn't. I hope the generation after mine tackles higher education differently.

I don't know if this is the time to teach a generation a lesson. We've bailed out the auto industry. We're bailing out the farmers. It might be time to bail out the students. I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income. I know a blanket clearing of the debt would never fly, but cancelling the interest gets my vote. Let everything they pay go toward principle. If you paid off your debt properly, kudos to you. Pat yourself on the back.

This isn't just to you, Chino, but to every one here:  why is the answer, then, always a knee-jerk "let's get someone else to pay for it!"?   Why does the answer always seem to be "well, let's blame someone else?"
The same reason the answer is always "you made your decisions, now live with them." It's a simple way to dump blame in a complex situation.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 17, 2020, 10:23:36 AM
My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Not every student taking on loans has parents like you. My ex-GF/GF had an entire family behind her filling her head with tlies like "Borrow whatever you need, as long as you pay them $10 a month, they can't come after you for anything" and "$100K isn't that much money once you're in your field". She's approaching 30 and still has about $80K in student loans and has pretty much accepted that she will have next to nothing when she retires because she has to allocate all her money toward the interest.

I get it. All of these students could have done math, but there's a huge underlying lying element of being inexperienced with life here that doesn't get talked about enough. Very few 17 year olds have any concept of how expensive life truly is. Very few have any idea what paying off $100K in debt actually requires. I've been a homeowner for almost 6 years now and am still constantly blindsided by how much living actually costs. No one warned these kids. Parents and schools encouraged it. I see first hand every day what student loan debt has done to my generation. It's not pretty. It could have been avoided and it wasn't. I hope the generation after mine tackles higher education differently.

I don't know if this is the time to teach a generation a lesson. We've bailed out the auto industry. We're bailing out the farmers. It might be time to bail out the students. I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income. I know a blanket clearing of the debt would never fly, but cancelling the interest gets my vote. Let everything they pay go toward principle. If you paid off your debt properly, kudos to you. Pat yourself on the back.

This isn't just to you, Chino, but to every one here:  why is the answer, then, always a knee-jerk "let's get someone else to pay for it!"?   Why does the answer always seem to be "well, let's blame someone else?"
The same reason the answer is always "you made your decisions, now live with them." It's a simple way to dump blame in a complex situation.

I suppose; the two sides aren't equal though. It's not like a football game with two teams of relatively equal strength.   
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: El Barto on February 17, 2020, 10:32:05 AM
find me one debate, one speech, one appearance by ANY Democratic candidate (I say Democratic, because they are the party largely pushing the "free tuition" idea) that addresses ANY of the other issues we've mentioned here besides "tuition relief".   They're not talking about the cost of education except as a reason to push "tuition relief".  They're not talking about beefing up the state school systems across the country.  They're not talking about revamping high school curricula to make it possible to make better - read: more informed - decisions.   

Pete Buttigieg’s Position on Student Loan Debt

Pete’s plan can be broken down into two categories: helping incoming students graduate without debt and helping people with existing debt qualify for forgiveness.
What is Buttigieg’s Stance on Student Debt?

Buttigieg seems passionate about helping low-income families graduate from college without going into debt, because he believes a college education can help lift people out of poverty.

If elected, he plans to create a partnership between the federal and state governments to make public higher education more affordable for everyone. What’s more, under his plan, tuition at public institutions will be free for low- and middle-income families.

Buttigieg’s plan will further contribute $25 billion to Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) and Minority-Serving institutions (MSIs) to make it more feasible for minority students to earn their degrees. A number of HBCUs and MSIs are private institutions, so minority students would have the option to attend a private university at a low cost, if not for free.

He also wants to increase the amount of money available for Pell Grants, which are federal gift aid for undergraduate students in financial need. These grants can be used not just to cover tuition, but also for expenses like textbooks and room and board.

Buttigieg believes Pell Grant awards should keep up with inflation. In recent years, the amount available for Pell Grants has increased annually, but it hasn’t always kept up with the rate of inflation.

Now let’s look at debt cancelation and forgiveness. If elected, Buttigieg plans to cancel student debt for borrowers who were targets of “low-quality, overwhelmingly for-profit programs”—specifically, colleges that failed to meet the Gainful Employment Rule standards.

Such schools may have charged graduates too much for tuition relative to how much money they can reasonably make in their profession, or they failed to adequately prepare students for the career field. In this case, Buttigieg believes that canceling student debt is the right thing to do.

He also has a plan to get more graduates enrolled in the Public Service Loan Forgiveness (PSLF) program, which is currently notorious for rejecting applicants . He plans to create more positions for AmeriCorps and the Peace Corps, as well as create new jobs in other public service fields.

Buttigieg has a plan to get a total of 250,000 people involved in public service in the near future, with a goal of 1 million by 2026. These participants may be eligible to enroll in PSLF.



He's attacking it from both fronts, and is not talking about erasing all student debt.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: cramx3 on February 17, 2020, 10:42:35 AM
I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income.

I see the opposite, I see articles about how millenials don't have money and yet are living like they do.  Vacations they can't afford, car leases that are outrageous, all to maintain a social media lifestyle to impress others while having crippling credit card debt. 

That's not to say you are wrong or anything, there's definitely plenty of people who are responsible about their debt and still can't get out of it.

I just think it comes down to people not being educated and falling victim to loans and lifestyles that aren't good decisions.

My parents are not good with debt.  My father has terrible credit and I'm glad I learned not to take my dad's lessons on money and credit cards.  Not everyone is going to reject their parent's advice though.  Having a class in high school about "paying for your life" would be very beneficial to teach people about interest rates and loans.  How credit scores work, is college worth it? Mortgages, car loans... things everyone will need to experience in life and yet no one ever teaches you how to deal with these to make the best financial decisions on your first attempt.

Anyway, about car loans.  I was thinking about how sleezy car salesman can be.  When I bought my car last year, after agreeing on a price.  It then came down to the discussion of how to pay for it.  So you talk to the finance guy (I wanted to buy, not lease) and he asks how much do you want to pay a month.  I say no more than $300 and I don't want it more than 5 years.  He comes back and has me at $300 for 4 years after agreeing on the downpayment.  As we go through the details.... turns out he added a bunch of warranties and extras to make it 300 without telling me until I asked further about the break down.  He took my number and shoved extras in to make it look like it was a good deal for me, but it wasn't what I wanted.  Removed all the extras and agreed to $250 a month for 4 years (where I actually pay 300 anyway because that's what I was always comfortable with paying).
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Adami on February 17, 2020, 10:46:24 AM
@Stads...too many long quotes, so I'm not quoting them.

We don't all live where you do. The rest of the country doesn't have your life, and your life can't be used as an objective standard against which to judge the decisions of others.

And I didn't mention the government in my stuff. At least i don't think I did. If you have arguments against other people..cool....but if you're replying to me, just reply to my arguments. It makes talking to you impossible when I'm speaking to you, and you're speaking to millions of other people instead of me. JUST LOVE ME DAMMIT!

I think the education system is in trouble. I'm not asking the government to just go in and magically fix everything. But, and I work with college students every day, we really are moving toward education just being a job factory. If the country becomes almost entirely based on profit generation, we're not going to last. We need to change how higher education is viewed. That's not a government thing. It's a society thing.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Chino on February 17, 2020, 10:48:53 AM
My son is a junior, and we have already looked at a bunch of colleges, starting last summer. We will soon be confronting these decisions. How much debt are WE willing to take on? How much debt are we willing for HIM to take on post grad?

Not every student taking on loans has parents like you. My ex-GF/GF had an entire family behind her filling her head with tlies like "Borrow whatever you need, as long as you pay them $10 a month, they can't come after you for anything" and "$100K isn't that much money once you're in your field". She's approaching 30 and still has about $80K in student loans and has pretty much accepted that she will have next to nothing when she retires because she has to allocate all her money toward the interest.

I get it. All of these students could have done math, but there's a huge underlying lying element of being inexperienced with life here that doesn't get talked about enough. Very few 17 year olds have any concept of how expensive life truly is. Very few have any idea what paying off $100K in debt actually requires. I've been a homeowner for almost 6 years now and am still constantly blindsided by how much living actually costs. No one warned these kids. Parents and schools encouraged it. I see first hand every day what student loan debt has done to my generation. It's not pretty. It could have been avoided and it wasn't. I hope the generation after mine tackles higher education differently.

I don't know if this is the time to teach a generation a lesson. We've bailed out the auto industry. We're bailing out the farmers. It might be time to bail out the students. I feel like every week I see articles about millenials not buying houses, or having kids before thirty, or going on vacations, or buying cars, etc... It's hard to do when very few have disposable income. I know a blanket clearing of the debt would never fly, but cancelling the interest gets my vote. Let everything they pay go toward principle. If you paid off your debt properly, kudos to you. Pat yourself on the back.

This isn't just to you, Chino, but to every one here:  why is the answer, then, always a knee-jerk "let's get someone else to pay for it!"?   Why does the answer always seem to be "well, let's blame someone else?"


Is it knee-jerk at this point though? I mean, I now regularly socialize with people who have been out of college for nearly a decade now and still have more than half of their loans to go.   I'm not suggesting "blame someone else". Put all of the blame on the students. I don't care. The fact of the matter is, this is spelling disaster for an entire generation regardless of who we can't agree on is at fault.   

Quote
I can quibble with some of the things said here - at least undergrad, I think the options are FAR greater than people think, and I think that there ARE affordable options to get a four-year degree out there.  They just take work, research, homework and diligence to get.  But generally, we're not talking JUST about "devil corporations looking to fuck people over!".  Federal ParentPLUS loans are reasonable and affordable.  Basic math, basic economics, ought to be a part of a curriculum to get a high school degree.  Our society is more complicated, if we think that important, it ought to be part of what every kid learns.   

No disagreement there, and I think a lot of students today are taking these things into account, which is a great thing. When I was looking at schools though, that certainly wasn't the mindset. Like at all. And that comes from our upbringing and the school environment. Kids don't know what they don't know, and if the entire generation above them was pushing them to pursue higher education in the way we did, can you really blame us? Even today, I trust my fathers advice more than just about anyone else's regardless of topic, and I'm sure terrible advice out there from other dads lead to these kinds of loans.

Quote
For me, the answer isn't the one that REDUCES personal responsibility, it's the one that makes it possible to take more informed personal responsibility.  Why does that seem to be such an anathema to some people?   I totally get it; if you get hit by a bus, or some other life-event changes the game transformationally, we can deal with that separately.  But just because you had an insatiable dream to be a Yalie or a Fighting Irish, doesn't entitle you to victim status down the road.

I don't see how blowing away the interest would reduce one's personal responsibility. They still have a hefty loan to pay back. And not for nothing, everyone I know who's still in serious debt from school didn't go to Yale. Hell, they didn't even go to UCONN. You can still come out of state schools over your head in debt, especially if the job market isn't what you thought it'd be.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 17, 2020, 06:59:50 PM
@Stads...too many long quotes, so I'm not quoting them.

We don't all live where you do. The rest of the country doesn't have your life, and your life can't be used as an objective standard against which to judge the decisions of others.

And I didn't mention the government in my stuff. At least i don't think I did. If you have arguments against other people..cool....but if you're replying to me, just reply to my arguments. It makes talking to you impossible when I'm speaking to you, and you're speaking to millions of other people instead of me. JUST LOVE ME DAMMIT!

I think the education system is in trouble. I'm not asking the government to just go in and magically fix everything. But, and I work with college students every day, we really are moving toward education just being a job factory. If the country becomes almost entirely based on profit generation, we're not going to last. We need to change how higher education is viewed. That's not a government thing. It's a society thing.

I'm not sure "what my life" has to do with it.  I'm not of wealth, and in terms of immediate family, there's not a lot of entitlement here.  My dad is handicapped, so the pot of gold at the rainbow's end isn't there, and my brother's a cop who has worked himself into two divorces now. My stepson is spending a year in Afghanistan, in part to afford a better shot for his kid than he got from his dad.  No victim here, no crying the blues; I am blessed in many ways that I would not trade for a trust fund.  I only mentioned what I did to be fair and to be upfront, and to counter this notion that college is a waste of time and never pays off.  If anything, I'm at a DISADVANTAGE, not an advantage.   I pay more than many do - my choice, in terms of where I live, and I accept that - and yet few of these programs will benefit me or those around me.

It's hard for me to just direct at the one comment because for me none of these issues are limited to one variable.  In fact, that's - in my opinion - precisely why we have many of the problems we do because we (collective) seem to want to insist on solving them with quippy, soundbite solutions that lend themselves to laws that have quippy soundbite names.   I'm all in favor of minimizing the for-profit focus of institutions.  I'm a big fan of the state school systems (my alma mater is now considered a "public Ivy" because of the investments made there and some of the advancements in the student body.  Tuition-wise it's still reasonable, and serves as a safety school for many kids in my state).   

And of course, it goes without saying I love you.  :)  :-*
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 17, 2020, 07:13:05 PM

Is it knee-jerk at this point though? I mean, I now regularly socialize with people who have been out of college for nearly a decade now and still have more than half of their loans to go.   I'm not suggesting "blame someone else". Put all of the blame on the students. I don't care. The fact of the matter is, this is spelling disaster for an entire generation regardless of who we can't agree on is at fault. 

Well, I think what I mean here is that it seems to be turning into one of those political footballs that obscure the real solution, and we get instead "Obamacare" or any of 100 environmental laws which sound great, but don't actually solve the problem, or, more importantly, stop it from continuing to happen.   

I really just find it ironic that we're dealing with a question of "education", and in part blaming it on a lack of "education", and not focusing primarily on strengthening that "education".   Understanding how loans works is not complicated algebra.  It's basic multiplication for the most part.  I guess there's an exponent in there, but we can handle that, I think.

Quote
No disagreement there, and I think a lot of students today are taking these things into account, which is a great thing. When I was looking at schools though, that certainly wasn't the mindset. Like at all. And that comes from our upbringing and the school environment. Kids don't know what they don't know, and if the entire generation above them was pushing them to pursue higher education in the way we did, can you really blame us? Even today, I trust my fathers advice more than just about anyone else's regardless of topic, and I'm sure terrible advice out there from other dads lead to these kinds of loans.

I just thought of that commercial: "Dad, should I consolidate my credit cards into one loan?"  "Dear, a wise man once said, 'The richest camel has the biggest hump!'".    :)   

I don't disagree.   If we can solve that, again, without it being a lottery win for a bunch of people that just happened to be at the right place at the right time (i.e. this point in our political life) then I'm all for it.   I'm not saying anything nearly as one-note as "suck it up, butter cup".   I'm all for programs that alleviate financial burden.  I just don't support blanket entitlement programs, especially ones that don't do squat to prevent the problem from recurring.

 

Quote
I don't see how blowing away the interest would reduce one's personal responsibility. They still have a hefty loan to pay back. And not for nothing, everyone I know who's still in serious debt from school didn't go to Yale. Hell, they didn't even go to UCONN. You can still come out of state schools over your head in debt, especially if the job market isn't what you thought it'd be.

Well, I'm nominally in favor of that, but it can't be reducing it to zero without some recompense.  Like it or not, lending is a business.  It doesn't have to be preditory, or usury in nature.   But if we go too far down this road of upending the financial basis for how some institutions make their money (and offset other, more risky loans that many of us need to get into homes or businesses) you will see a retraction in the economy, much like we did in 2008 when businesses puckered at the trifecta of radical healthcare changes, drastically increased environmental controls, and drastically increased regulation of Wall Street.   "Stock prices" are a measure, at base level, of "future earnings".  If we remove "interest" from the $1.5 trillion of student debt out there, there will be repurcussions.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Adami on February 17, 2020, 07:15:10 PM
I said the thing about your life, not because I think you come from some privilege, but because you repeatedly point out anecdotes from your life as proof that you're correct. Your circumstances support your perspectives, but other people have lived other lives (nothing to do with privilege) which disqualify them from being so directly comparable to what you have done.


And for my 2nd point, I dunno. You find yourself often being told the exact same thing by people here and often feel you're being misunderstood. Part of that might be because you're replying to us, AND everyone on CNN, AND everyone on random comments sections AND everyone on FB and other people as well. It just makes the conversation so difficult to have because we have to keep either ignoring parts of what you say, or moving so far away from what we're trying to say to address your points that we all lose focus as to what we're even talking about.

So if I say X, and lots of other people not on DTF say X+Z+Y, doesn't mean you can bring up Y and Z to me. I never said those things and I don't want to defend those things.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: XeRocks81 on February 17, 2020, 07:26:03 PM

And for my 2nd point, I dunno. You find yourself often being told the exact same thing by people here and often feel you're being misunderstood. Part of that might be because you're replying to us, AND everyone on CNN, AND everyone on random comments sections AND everyone on FB and other people as well. It just makes the conversation so difficult to have because we have to keep either ignoring parts of what you say, or moving so far away from what we're trying to say to address your points that we all lose focus as to what we're even talking about.

So if I say X, and lots of other people not on DTF say X+Z+Y, doesn't mean you can bring up Y and Z to me. I never said those things and I don't want to defend those things.

yes, very well said this is a big part of why he keeps running into trouble here and elsewhere.  Now I'll be the first admit that I've often been very uncharitable, unfair and downright dickish in my interpretations so of course it's a two way street and now I either don't respond at all or try to be mindful.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 17, 2020, 07:29:46 PM
I said the thing about your life, not because I think you come from some privilege, but because you repeatedly point out anecdotes from your life as proof that you're correct. Your circumstances support your perspectives, but other people have lived other lives (nothing to do with privilege) which disqualify them from being so directly comparable to what you have done.

I'm sorry if you take it that way.  It's meant not to say "I'm correct", but to counter the weight of the general perception.  It's an example of a reasonable alternative.   I am very well aware - in fact I wrote this in PM to a person here earlier this morning - that I am but one of 325 million stories.  I don't expect anyone to agree with me, or to do it my way, or any of that, and I'm sorry if that's the message received.   

Quote
And for my 2nd point, I dunno. You find yourself often being told the exact same thing by people here and often feel you're being misunderstood. Part of that might be because you're replying to us, AND everyone on CNN, AND everyone on random comments sections AND everyone on FB and other people as well. It just makes the conversation so difficult to have because we have to keep either ignoring parts of what you say, or moving so far away from what we're trying to say to address your points that we all lose focus as to what we're even talking about.

So if I say X, and lots of other people not on DTF say X+Z+Y, doesn't mean you can bring up Y and Z to me. I never said those things and I don't want to defend those things.

Fair enough; I'll do my best.  It's at best a compromise though.  I write enough here that anyone really interested knows where I'm coming from more or less.  For me, it's all tied together. 
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 17, 2020, 07:34:16 PM

And for my 2nd point, I dunno. You find yourself often being told the exact same thing by people here and often feel you're being misunderstood. Part of that might be because you're replying to us, AND everyone on CNN, AND everyone on random comments sections AND everyone on FB and other people as well. It just makes the conversation so difficult to have because we have to keep either ignoring parts of what you say, or moving so far away from what we're trying to say to address your points that we all lose focus as to what we're even talking about.

So if I say X, and lots of other people not on DTF say X+Z+Y, doesn't mean you can bring up Y and Z to me. I never said those things and I don't want to defend those things.

yes, very well said this is a big part of why he keeps running into trouble here and elsewhere.  Now I'll be the first admit that I've often been very uncharitable, unfair and downright dickish in my interpretations so of course it's a two way street and now I either don't respond at all or try to be mindful.

"he keeps running into trouble here and elsewhere"?  Really?   

Look, whether any one person "says that" or not isn't really the point.  We don't get to pick and choose our arguments, or the variables that impact our positions. I can't help that we're talking about an issue that is of tremendous magnitude ($1.5 trillion; by contrast the mortgage market is $10 trillion, and the entire GDP of the country is $20 trillion).  It's a big issue.   If you don't want to discuss certain aspects, I'm not sure why I'm the one that has to edit the conversation.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Adami on February 17, 2020, 07:35:30 PM
And I get that, and I think there are ways to argue against the non-DTF things without mixing it in with what we're saying. That's all.

If people on youtube or Sean Hannity or whatever (I'm not even sure who that is) is saying Y and Z and you have a LOT to say about that, awesome. Let it rip. Just don't mix it in with a reply to someone else' argument because it makes the conversation extremely difficult for many of us. And we want to argue with you. We want to destroy you. We want to rape your soul. But you're making that difficult! Just lay down and take it!
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 17, 2020, 07:37:49 PM
And I get that, and I think there are ways to argue against the non-DTF things without mixing it in with what we're saying. That's all.

If people on youtube or Sean Hannity or whatever (I'm not even sure who that is) is saying Y and Z and you have a LOT to say about that, awesome. Let it rip. Just don't mix it in with a reply to someone else' argument because it makes the conversation extremely difficult for many of us. And we want to argue with you. We want to destroy you. We want to rape your soul. But you're making that difficult! Just lay down and take it!

I'm not NEARLY going that far.   To talk about "student loan" (many administered by government funded entities), "student loan forgiveness" (by politicians) and the candidates themselves for the highest government office in the land, and then to suppose we can have a conversation without mentioning government, I'm not sure I even know how to do that.   

But since you put it that way, my safe word is "Rapunzel". 
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: cramx3 on February 25, 2020, 03:26:46 PM
Just stumbled upon this and it's relevant to this discussion

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/a-new-report-finds-only-16-of-millennials-qualify-at-financially-literate-195635534.html (https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/a-new-report-finds-only-16-of-millennials-qualify-at-financially-literate-195635534.html)

Quote
1) Suppose you had $100 in a savings account, and the interest rate was 2% per year. After 5 years, how much do you think you would have in the account if you left the money to grow? Answers: a) More than $102; b) Exactly $102; c) Less than $102; d) Do not know; e) Refuse to answer.

2) Imagine that the interest rate on your savings account was 1% per year and inflation was 2% per year. After 1 year, how much would you be able to buy with the money in this account? Answers: a) More than today; b) Exactly the same; c) Less than today; d) Do not know; e) Refuse to answer.

3) Please tell me whether this statement is true or false. “Buying a single company’s stock usually provides a safer return than a stock mutual fund.” Answers: a) True; b) False; c) Do not know; d) Refuse to answer.

Only 16% of millenials answered all three correctly. 

Quote
The lack of financial literacy intersects directly with the student loan crisis; statistics show Americans have $1.6 trillion in outstanding debt, working out to $29,200 per borrower.

According to the TIAA report, 43% of millennials have a loan. And of those that are currently working off their loan, 47% of respondents reported that they did not look into what their monthly loan repayment bill would be at the time they decided to accept a loan.

The challenge is getting young people educated and then out of debt and on the path to savings while they still have time for the money to grow. As Hasler says, she often tell her students "compound interest even works when we’re asleep.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: TAC on February 25, 2020, 03:45:16 PM
Interesting, but it's not like we (my generation) had training in this kind of thing either.


I don't think that 29k in College debt is that bad, considering some of the schools we've been looking at.

I graduated college in 1990 with about 16k in loans. $153.70 a month for 10 years, plus another $30 a month for the 5 years.


You just hope these kids have some guidance, because honestly, no kid entering college is really equipped to make these decisions.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: El Barto on February 25, 2020, 03:45:59 PM
What's with the refuse to answer?

"I didn't expect some kind of Spanish inquisition!"
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Dave_Manchester on February 25, 2020, 03:49:19 PM
Nobody does.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: TAC on February 25, 2020, 03:50:07 PM
Nobody does.

Dave, is that you in your avatar, and if not, who is it?
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Dave_Manchester on February 25, 2020, 03:50:53 PM
Nobody does.

Dave, is that you in your avatar, and if not, who is it?

This fella:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Either/Or_(album)
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: TAC on February 25, 2020, 03:59:06 PM
Gotcha!
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: lordxizor on February 26, 2020, 06:15:28 AM
I am determined that my kids will understand money and basic financial stuff by the time they're on their own. We homeschool and I've bee using a financial curriculum I found to teach them the basics now. I'm stumbled my way through finances without screwing up too badly, but I'd certainly be in a lot stranger place if I knew when I first started out what I know now.

I am fully convinced that we are not taught about finances in school at more than a very basic level because our economy in completely dependent on people spending far more than they can afford to. The government doesn't want us to save 20%+ for retirement and paying off our credit cards every month.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Grappler on February 26, 2020, 07:18:36 AM
I don't agree with any idea of eliminating a person's debt just because life is hard.  Guess what?  I went to college nearly 20 years ago and when I graduated, the job market sucked too.  I had a tough time finding a job at first.  It took me those 20 years to make the salary that I do now.  I lived at home until I could afford to move out (at age 25).  I bought a small car with a 6 year loan just so I could have small monthly payments and while I lived at home, paid double each month to pay it off early. 

I was fortunate to not have student loans.  My wife had them.  She worked her ass off to pay them off early.  We skipped taking some vacations.  We didn't buy flat screen TV's right away.  We didn't have the very first smart phones.  Tax refunds ALWAYS went straight to bills or into savings.  We delayed having kids until we felt that we could afford it.  We lived in an affordable apartment.  We bought an affordable home, despite being approved for a higher mortgage.

Cram is so right - I had a friend that took out a second mortgage on their house just to finance a 2 weeks trip to Australia.  People don't understand sacrificing financially and feel the need to spend way more than they have.  Everything is about being able to have what you want right now and portray a certain lifestyle on social media.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Adami on February 26, 2020, 07:51:09 AM
And I don't agree with making sure other people's lives are hard because you felt yours was or that life should be hard for some reason.

Don't take that as an endorsement that I believe in eliminating all debt, just the philosophy of "We suffered  SO NOW YOU WILL TOO GOD DAMMIT!"
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 26, 2020, 07:58:38 AM
Nobody does.

Dave, is that you in your avatar, and if not, who is it?

This fella:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Either/Or_(album)

And wearing a Hank Williams, Jr. t-shirt (I would hope not ironically). 
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 26, 2020, 08:16:39 AM
And I don't agree with making sure other people's lives are hard because you felt yours was or that life should be hard for some reason.

Don't take that as an endorsement that I believe in eliminating all debt, just the philosophy of "We suffered  SO NOW YOU WILL TOO GOD DAMMIT!"

I can't speak for the Grappler, but I know for me, that's not the mindset.  For all my curmudgeonness here, I relish and welcome the ways my kids have been able to alleviate stressors and hardship in their life.   I've busted nuggets to make sure that kids have a better life in every way possible.  My beef is about the general notion that someone is always going to rush in and save you if life happens to slip a mickey in your drink.  It's the marketing and sale of "abdication of responsibility" that I don't like, the notion that somehow this is a RIGHT to be free of not debt but bad decisions.   

That's really what this is about:  it's not about "freeing from debt", it's about "freeing from responsibility". 

(And to be clear:  I'm talking about the blanket wiping of debt; if there is a specific case of lending fraud or something like that, I don't have a problem with guv'mint stepping in and cracking down on that.  I just know that most of the debt we're talking about absolving is from arm's-length transactions with knowing, competent adults, and so isn't about wrong-doing.)
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Adami on February 26, 2020, 08:24:24 AM
And I can agree with that.

The issue, as some of us see it, specifically with this stuff (not all debt) is that the system is so unfair. So someone coming in to fix the system and helping some people screwed over by it is not the same as saying no one has any responsibility.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Grappler on February 26, 2020, 08:37:56 AM
And I don't agree with making sure other people's lives are hard because you felt yours was or that life should be hard for some reason.

Don't take that as an endorsement that I believe in eliminating all debt, just the philosophy of "We suffered  SO NOW YOU WILL TOO GOD DAMMIT!"

It's not that at all.  It's that people need to be financially responsible, period.  My life wasn't hard at all.  I learned that debt is generally manageable if you sacrifice, barring some catastrophic emergency.  I know that there are some people that do live frugally and are still burdened with debt.  But I also know that it's possible to manage it successfully, though it takes serious dedication and responsibility over time.  I don't see a younger generation handling that well, with the idea that life should be easy and handed to them on a silver platter. 

-------

Stadler nailed it for me.  It's a responsibility issue, not a financial one.  At some point, people have to grow up and become responsible adults, which includes figuring out how to manage your lifestyle and your debt.  In my case, that was via sacrificing things that all of my friends and extended family were doing.  I know others that worked two jobs - a full time career type job, plus a night retail/server job, just to have that extra spending money.

I have no problem with fixing the system, but the fix isn't that (student) debt should be wiped free.  What happens when that student wants to buy a house, has a mortgage, and then catastrophe happens?  Will they be prepared to handle the financial responsibility?  Or will they expect another bailout because life just got hard for them again?
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 26, 2020, 08:38:46 AM
And I can agree with that.

The issue, as some of us see it, specifically with this stuff (not all debt) is that the system is so unfair. So someone coming in to fix the system and helping some people screwed over by it is not the same as saying no one has any responsibility.

To say that "taking out a student loan and having to pay it back" is "unfair" or "being screwed over".... you might as well be speaking in Hebrew while I'm speaking in Polish.   Does not compute.

I'm going to assume you mean the high cost of higher education here in the States, but we've already covered that.  Not every school is Harvard; the tuition at Southern Connecticut (one of the five state schools here in CT) is about $5,700 a semester, figure double that if you're living on campus.  When people are taking out loans for $50,000 cars, I don't see a $45,000 tuition bill (assuming that there is NO cash contribution or scholarships) is "unfair" or "being screwed over".   
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: cramx3 on February 26, 2020, 08:42:23 AM
I think the system is broken, but I don't believe it is currently "unfair" No one forces you to sign a loan, although pressure from society may push you and that is one aspect that is broken IMO.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Adami on February 26, 2020, 08:45:09 AM
And I can agree with that.

The issue, as some of us see it, specifically with this stuff (not all debt) is that the system is so unfair. So someone coming in to fix the system and helping some people screwed over by it is not the same as saying no one has any responsibility.

To say that "taking out a student loan and having to pay it back" is "unfair" or "being screwed over".... you might as well be speaking in Hebrew while I'm speaking in Polish.   Does not compute.

I'm going to assume you mean the high cost of higher education here in the States, but we've already covered that.  Not every school is Harvard; the tuition at Southern Connecticut (one of the five state schools here in CT) is about $5,700 a semester, figure double that if you're living on campus.  When people are taking out loans for $50,000 cars, I don't see a $45,000 tuition bill (assuming that there is NO cash contribution or scholarships) is "unfair" or "being screwed over".

אני לא מדבר פולני.

But yes, I meant the whole cost.

And again, I'm glad YOU and your ilk are able to find such affordable options. But what happens if every single student goes that route? Those schools can't take on that many students, they raise their prices, etc. So your plan works for some people, and it doesn't work for other people.

I don't think the system is unfair for people that everything works for, but the people who it doesn't work for are just as important as you and your family who do tons of research and live in an area where there are plenty of good options. Not everyone can do that though and you need to stop assuming it's a blanket solution. And that JUST applies to some basic undergrad work in very common subjects. I'm also referring to higher education beyond the Associates or Bachelor's level. There are no community grad schools that charge 4 grand a semester that I know of.

So yes, the whole education system is unfair currently. Maybe not to every single person who knows exactly what to do and has plenty of options, but to enough people that it can be changed.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 26, 2020, 08:50:27 AM
And I can agree with that.

The issue, as some of us see it, specifically with this stuff (not all debt) is that the system is so unfair. So someone coming in to fix the system and helping some people screwed over by it is not the same as saying no one has any responsibility.

To say that "taking out a student loan and having to pay it back" is "unfair" or "being screwed over".... you might as well be speaking in Hebrew while I'm speaking in Polish.   Does not compute.

I'm going to assume you mean the high cost of higher education here in the States, but we've already covered that.  Not every school is Harvard; the tuition at Southern Connecticut (one of the five state schools here in CT) is about $5,700 a semester, figure double that if you're living on campus.  When people are taking out loans for $50,000 cars, I don't see a $45,000 tuition bill (assuming that there is NO cash contribution or scholarships) is "unfair" or "being screwed over".

אני לא מדבר פולני.

But yes, I meant the whole cost.

Can I repeat that in front of my kids?   :) :) :)

Speaking of which, my 12-year-old step son came home from school yesterday and told us that some kid called him a "See You Next Tuesday" in the stairwell.  I haven't felt that mixed a set of emotions in a long time.  Part of me wanted to laugh, part of me got angry (my son is on the spectrum and so takes that stuff very seriously in his way; he was really upset and predictably, didn't want to go to school today), and part of me was heartbroken that at 12 we're at that level.  He's supposed to be building models and playing basketball and watching funny dog videos and...  his favorite books are still Dog-man and the like.  Sorry to hi-jack the thread...
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: bosk1 on February 26, 2020, 08:55:49 AM
Speaking of which, my 12-year-old step son came home from school yesterday and told us that some kid called him a "See You Next Tuesday" in the stairwell.  I haven't felt that mixed a set of emotions in a long time.  Part of me wanted to laugh, part of me got angry (my son is on the spectrum and so takes that stuff very seriously in his way; he was really upset and predictably, didn't want to go to school today), and part of me was heartbroken that at 12 we're at that level.  He's supposed to be building models and playing basketball and watching funny dog videos and...  his favorite books are still Dog-man and the like.  Sorry to hi-jack the thread...

Give him a dollar.  Give him fifty cents.  You can take it back if that ain't what you meant.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Adami on February 26, 2020, 08:58:35 AM
And I can agree with that.

The issue, as some of us see it, specifically with this stuff (not all debt) is that the system is so unfair. So someone coming in to fix the system and helping some people screwed over by it is not the same as saying no one has any responsibility.

To say that "taking out a student loan and having to pay it back" is "unfair" or "being screwed over".... you might as well be speaking in Hebrew while I'm speaking in Polish.   Does not compute.

I'm going to assume you mean the high cost of higher education here in the States, but we've already covered that.  Not every school is Harvard; the tuition at Southern Connecticut (one of the five state schools here in CT) is about $5,700 a semester, figure double that if you're living on campus.  When people are taking out loans for $50,000 cars, I don't see a $45,000 tuition bill (assuming that there is NO cash contribution or scholarships) is "unfair" or "being screwed over".

אני לא מדבר פולני.

But yes, I meant the whole cost.

Can I repeat that in front of my kids?   :) :) :)


If you can read it!

Just says I don't speak Polish.

Or do you mean my concerns with the cost of education? Yes. Please tell your kids. :)
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: El Barto on February 26, 2020, 09:24:40 AM
And I don't agree with making sure other people's lives are hard because you felt yours was or that life should be hard for some reason.

Don't take that as an endorsement that I believe in eliminating all debt, just the philosophy of "We suffered  SO NOW YOU WILL TOO GOD DAMMIT!"

I can't speak for the Grappler, but I know for me, that's not the mindset.  For all my curmudgeonness here, I relish and welcome the ways my kids have been able to alleviate stressors and hardship in their life.   I've busted nuggets to make sure that kids have a better life in every way possible.  My beef is about the general notion that someone is always going to rush in and save you if life happens to slip a mickey in your drink.  It's the marketing and sale of "abdication of responsibility" that I don't like, the notion that somehow this is a RIGHT to be free of not debt but bad decisions.   

That's really what this is about:  it's not about "freeing from debt", it's about "freeing from responsibility". 

(And to be clear:  I'm talking about the blanket wiping of debt; if there is a specific case of lending fraud or something like that, I don't have a problem with guv'mint stepping in and cracking down on that.  I just know that most of the debt we're talking about absolving is from arm's-length transactions with knowing, competent adults, and so isn't about wrong-doing.)
I'm having a hard time linking responsibility to predation. We have laws in place to keep some people from being exploited. Arbitrary cutoff points where you're either a victim or a culpable dipshit. Just because you happen to be on the rotten side of one of those arbitrary markers shouldn't make you fair game for being duped, and I'm not real keen to tell people to suck it up and deal with it, just because when they were 18 they allowed themselves to be fleeced. That's not how civilized people should conduct themselves.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: XeRocks81 on February 26, 2020, 09:43:15 AM
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along. 
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Chino on February 26, 2020, 09:46:38 AM
And I don't agree with making sure other people's lives are hard because you felt yours was or that life should be hard for some reason.

Don't take that as an endorsement that I believe in eliminating all debt, just the philosophy of "We suffered  SO NOW YOU WILL TOO GOD DAMMIT!"

I can't speak for the Grappler, but I know for me, that's not the mindset.  For all my curmudgeonness here, I relish and welcome the ways my kids have been able to alleviate stressors and hardship in their life.   I've busted nuggets to make sure that kids have a better life in every way possible.  My beef is about the general notion that someone is always going to rush in and save you if life happens to slip a mickey in your drink.  It's the marketing and sale of "abdication of responsibility" that I don't like, the notion that somehow this is a RIGHT to be free of not debt but bad decisions.   

That's really what this is about:  it's not about "freeing from debt", it's about "freeing from responsibility". 

(And to be clear:  I'm talking about the blanket wiping of debt; if there is a specific case of lending fraud or something like that, I don't have a problem with guv'mint stepping in and cracking down on that.  I just know that most of the debt we're talking about absolving is from arm's-length transactions with knowing, competent adults, and so isn't about wrong-doing.)
I'm having a hard time linking responsibility to predation. We have laws in place to keep some people from being exploited. Arbitrary cutoff points where you're either a victim or a culpable dipshit. Just because you happen to be on the rotten side of one of those arbitrary markers shouldn't make you fair game for being duped, and I'm not real keen to tell people to suck it up and deal with it, just because when they were 18 they allowed themselves to be fleeced. That's not how civilized people should conduct themselves.

This is the most important element of the discussion IMO. We're not talking about some 30 year old who took out a car loan they couldn't afford. We're talking about people that have been deemed by law to be too irresponsible to drink beer or smoke cigarettes, but we'll let them sign themselves up for a $50K+ loan with absolutely zero life experience of any kind. I get they could have just "done math", but there are variables that they can't work into the equation simply because they don't know they exist. When I was 18, I wasn't considering having to decide whether I should spend $6000 on replacing my house's sills or cutting down a tree that threatens to crush it. I've been a homeowner for over five years now and I'm still learning the hard way how hard keeping your finances predictable can be. In theory, saving up $5000 shouldn't be that hard given my salary, but when a few dozen things come up throughout the year that all cost $150+, you end up learning how expensive life truly is. An 18 year old simply has no clue or concept as to what $50K actually is, or how hard it can be to come up with that sum of money outside of the general cost of living.

I feel sorry for them. I really do. They were preyed on and had their inexperience taken advantage of.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 26, 2020, 10:52:00 AM
And I don't agree with making sure other people's lives are hard because you felt yours was or that life should be hard for some reason.

Don't take that as an endorsement that I believe in eliminating all debt, just the philosophy of "We suffered  SO NOW YOU WILL TOO GOD DAMMIT!"

I can't speak for the Grappler, but I know for me, that's not the mindset.  For all my curmudgeonness here, I relish and welcome the ways my kids have been able to alleviate stressors and hardship in their life.   I've busted nuggets to make sure that kids have a better life in every way possible.  My beef is about the general notion that someone is always going to rush in and save you if life happens to slip a mickey in your drink.  It's the marketing and sale of "abdication of responsibility" that I don't like, the notion that somehow this is a RIGHT to be free of not debt but bad decisions.   

That's really what this is about:  it's not about "freeing from debt", it's about "freeing from responsibility". 

(And to be clear:  I'm talking about the blanket wiping of debt; if there is a specific case of lending fraud or something like that, I don't have a problem with guv'mint stepping in and cracking down on that.  I just know that most of the debt we're talking about absolving is from arm's-length transactions with knowing, competent adults, and so isn't about wrong-doing.)
I'm having a hard time linking responsibility to predation. We have laws in place to keep some people from being exploited. Arbitrary cutoff points where you're either a victim or a culpable dipshit. Just because you happen to be on the rotten side of one of those arbitrary markers shouldn't make you fair game for being duped, and I'm not real keen to tell people to suck it up and deal with it, just because when they were 18 they allowed themselves to be fleeced. That's not how civilized people should conduct themselves.

But unless you think lending generally is "predatory", I'm not sure we're on opposite sides of the equation here.  My ParentPLUS loan wasn't predatory in any sense of the word.   I can't even imagine a scenario where I should benefit from absolution of that loan.  I'll take it, of course, and I make a living out of constructing arguments where none exist, but I'm at a loss here.  I got nothing. 

It seems, to me, similar to the weed argument; we're okay letting 18 year olds do a whole ton of things that can (and do) ruin their lives, but now that money is involved, it's a problem?   And I say that, because I think that's a key part of this:  money IS involved, and now it DOES become a problem because it's a tool to foment the class warfare that is increasingly being a tool of political candidates.   
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 26, 2020, 10:55:03 AM
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along.

Honest question:  have you gone through the FAFSA process?
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: XeRocks81 on February 26, 2020, 11:01:14 AM
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along.

Honest question:  have you gone through the FAFSA process?

I had to google that, did you forget I'm canadian?  ;)  but the short answer is no I never had any financial aid for school other than my parents.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: El Barto on February 26, 2020, 11:29:50 AM
And I don't agree with making sure other people's lives are hard because you felt yours was or that life should be hard for some reason.

Don't take that as an endorsement that I believe in eliminating all debt, just the philosophy of "We suffered  SO NOW YOU WILL TOO GOD DAMMIT!"

I can't speak for the Grappler, but I know for me, that's not the mindset.  For all my curmudgeonness here, I relish and welcome the ways my kids have been able to alleviate stressors and hardship in their life.   I've busted nuggets to make sure that kids have a better life in every way possible.  My beef is about the general notion that someone is always going to rush in and save you if life happens to slip a mickey in your drink.  It's the marketing and sale of "abdication of responsibility" that I don't like, the notion that somehow this is a RIGHT to be free of not debt but bad decisions.   

That's really what this is about:  it's not about "freeing from debt", it's about "freeing from responsibility". 

(And to be clear:  I'm talking about the blanket wiping of debt; if there is a specific case of lending fraud or something like that, I don't have a problem with guv'mint stepping in and cracking down on that.  I just know that most of the debt we're talking about absolving is from arm's-length transactions with knowing, competent adults, and so isn't about wrong-doing.)
I'm having a hard time linking responsibility to predation. We have laws in place to keep some people from being exploited. Arbitrary cutoff points where you're either a victim or a culpable dipshit. Just because you happen to be on the rotten side of one of those arbitrary markers shouldn't make you fair game for being duped, and I'm not real keen to tell people to suck it up and deal with it, just because when they were 18 they allowed themselves to be fleeced. That's not how civilized people should conduct themselves.

But unless you think lending generally is "predatory", I'm not sure we're on opposite sides of the equation here.  My ParentPLUS loan wasn't predatory in any sense of the word.   I can't even imagine a scenario where I should benefit from absolution of that loan.  I'll take it, of course, and I make a living out of constructing arguments where none exist, but I'm at a loss here.  I got nothing. 
I think much of it is. It's not binary. Not all lenders are predatory. I have 3 credit cards, and I've taken out a couple of small personal loans in my time. I don't consider those predatory. Yet there's a reason why I don't pass any payday lenders on my drive to work, yet they're ubiquitous 3 miles South of me. Smarter and more informed people don't agree to such ridiculous terms. There's a reason why car salesmen would rather whip out the four square than just tell you what the price is. There's a reason Citi and Chase will send credit apps to high school kids. It goes on and on. And yes, I think there are a lot of student loans that are absolutely predatory in nature. And given a hundred years of conditioning that college is crucial it's even wider than merely the finer points of the loans.

Quote
It seems, to me, similar to the weed argument; we're okay letting 18 year olds do a whole ton of things that can (and do) ruin their lives, but now that money is involved, it's a problem?   And I say that, because I think that's a key part of this:  money IS involved, and now it DOES become a problem because it's a tool to foment the class warfare that is increasingly being a tool of political candidates. 
I'd suggest that were OK letting them, and prohibiting them, based on whether or not it benefits the people making the decisions, frankly.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 26, 2020, 11:44:44 AM
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along.

Honest question:  have you gone through the FAFSA process?

I had to google that, did you forget I'm canadian?  ;)  but the short answer is no I never had any financial aid for school other than my parents.

No, I know you are, but that's not to say you might not be familiar with it.  I think to some degree this issue is clouded with, if not "misinformation" (Fake News!) but maybe, lack of familiarity.  That's not a dig at you; you wouldn't know if you didn't actually involve yourself in it. I have. And I had to give volumes of information as part of that process.  They know whether I have money or not.  Many schools set their obligation based on that data.  So the notion that you go on a website, see that "Stadler University" charges $10,000 in tuition and $60,000 in room and board (for the experience!) and assume that only beyonaires can afford this is not accurate.   If you go down the hallway at my daughter's school, I'll be you there are 10 or more different actual amounts being paid.  Not every kid pays the same, and a large part of that difference is based on ability to pay.   

I'm not sure how much more progressive we can get on this.  What more "reform" is possible? 
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Chino on February 26, 2020, 11:50:23 AM
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along.

Honest question:  have you gone through the FAFSA process?

I had to google that, did you forget I'm canadian?  ;)  but the short answer is no I never had any financial aid for school other than my parents.

No, I know you are, but that's not to say you might not be familiar with it.  I think to some degree this issue is clouded with, if not "misinformation" (Fake News!) but maybe, lack of familiarity.  That's not a dig at you; you wouldn't know if you didn't actually involve yourself in it. I have. And I had to give volumes of information as part of that process.  They know whether I have money or not.  Many schools set their obligation based on that data.  So the notion that you go on a website, see that "Stadler University" charges $10,000 in tuition and $60,000 in room and board (for the experience!) and assume that only beyonaires can afford this is not accurate.   If you go down the hallway at my daughter's school, I'll be you there are 10 or more different actual amounts being paid.  Not every kid pays the same, and a large part of that difference is based on ability to pay.   

I'm not sure how much more progressive we can get on this.  What more "reform" is possible?

Trade schools and associate degrees cost students the same amount that grades K-12 cost them?

Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: XeRocks81 on February 26, 2020, 11:53:33 AM
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along.

Honest question:  have you gone through the FAFSA process?

I had to google that, did you forget I'm canadian?  ;)  but the short answer is no I never had any financial aid for school other than my parents.

No, I know you are, but that's not to say you might not be familiar with it.  I think to some degree this issue is clouded with, if not "misinformation" (Fake News!) but maybe, lack of familiarity.  That's not a dig at you; you wouldn't know if you didn't actually involve yourself in it. I have. And I had to give volumes of information as part of that process.  They know whether I have money or not.  Many schools set their obligation based on that data.  So the notion that you go on a website, see that "Stadler University" charges $10,000 in tuition and $60,000 in room and board (for the experience!) and assume that only beyonaires can afford this is not accurate.   If you go down the hallway at my daughter's school, I'll be you there are 10 or more different actual amounts being paid.  Not every kid pays the same, and a large part of that difference is based on ability to pay.   

I'm not sure how much more progressive we can get on this.  What more "reform" is possible?

I don't know if I'm saying the same thing you are and I'm not familiar with how it works in the US but here I believe (I could be wrong because I don't have a lot of experience) a school has set tuition fees they charge and when you apply for financial aid the amount is based on how much you (or usually your parents) can afford to pay.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 26, 2020, 11:57:28 AM
But unless you think lending generally is "predatory", I'm not sure we're on opposite sides of the equation here.  My ParentPLUS loan wasn't predatory in any sense of the word.   I can't even imagine a scenario where I should benefit from absolution of that loan.  I'll take it, of course, and I make a living out of constructing arguments where none exist, but I'm at a loss here.  I got nothing. 
I think much of it is. It's not binary. Not all lenders are predatory. I have 3 credit cards, and I've taken out a couple of small personal loans in my time. I don't consider those predatory. Yet there's a reason why I don't pass any payday lenders on my drive to work, yet they're ubiquitous 3 miles South of me. Smarter and more informed people don't agree to such ridiculous terms. There's a reason why car salesmen would rather whip out the four square than just tell you what the price is. There's a reason Citi and Chase will send credit apps to high school kids. It goes on and on. And yes, I think there are a lot of student loans that are absolutely predatory in nature. And given a hundred years of conditioning that college is crucial it's even wider than merely the finer points of the loans.

I don't think it's binary either; on that we agree.  But I think the credible student loan issuers - the Feds, the Sallie Mae's - are FAR from "pay day loan" territory.

I'm indifferent on the "conditioning" argument; it's not without merit, so it's more complicated than that.  These are getting to be old numbers now (but they inform those that have student loans now).   Presumably, and doing the math for time-value of money, yadda yadda yadda, by this measure (https://www.cornerstone.edu/blogs/lifelong-learning-matters/post/do-college-grads-really-earn-more-than-high-school-grads), college is a bargain.  And again, doing the math for time-value of money, yadda yadda yadda, unless your payments are astronomical per year, you're ahead on average.  Finally, even if you're in the minor percentage where this doesn't work according to Hoyle, you're almost exactly twice as likely to have a job if you have a college degree than if you don't.   Which puts us in that famous place we always seem to end up in:  forcing 260 million people to pony up and bear the burden for about 60 million people, tops.  The ACA:  We put out and inconvenienced 150 million plus to pander to what, 15 million people?   Not to suggest AT ALL that we not help these people, but let's do it with a little more precision, and a little more scrupulousness, instead of swinging the blunt edge "vote hammer" and making it a sales pitch.   

Side bar question:  would you outlaw pay day loans?  (I don't believe they are legal in my state, for example.)

Quote
Quote
It seems, to me, similar to the weed argument; we're okay letting 18 year olds do a whole ton of things that can (and do) ruin their lives, but now that money is involved, it's a problem?   And I say that, because I think that's a key part of this:  money IS involved, and now it DOES become a problem because it's a tool to foment the class warfare that is increasingly being a tool of political candidates. 
I'd suggest that were OK letting them, and prohibiting them, based on whether or not it benefits the people making the decisions, frankly.

Can't really argue that.   
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 26, 2020, 12:07:18 PM
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along.

Honest question:  have you gone through the FAFSA process?

I had to google that, did you forget I'm canadian?  ;)  but the short answer is no I never had any financial aid for school other than my parents.

No, I know you are, but that's not to say you might not be familiar with it.  I think to some degree this issue is clouded with, if not "misinformation" (Fake News!) but maybe, lack of familiarity.  That's not a dig at you; you wouldn't know if you didn't actually involve yourself in it. I have. And I had to give volumes of information as part of that process.  They know whether I have money or not.  Many schools set their obligation based on that data.  So the notion that you go on a website, see that "Stadler University" charges $10,000 in tuition and $60,000 in room and board (for the experience!) and assume that only beyonaires can afford this is not accurate.   If you go down the hallway at my daughter's school, I'll be you there are 10 or more different actual amounts being paid.  Not every kid pays the same, and a large part of that difference is based on ability to pay.   

I'm not sure how much more progressive we can get on this.  What more "reform" is possible?

Trade schools and associate degrees cost students the same amount that grades K-12 cost them?

I would argue it does.

My town: total budget of roughly $138M.  Board of education budget:  $72M, or 52%.   My property taxes last year?  Roughly $8,700, 52% of which is $4,500.     Asnuntuck, a community college/trade school near me, has an annual tuition of about $4,400.    It's just paid differently. 
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Chino on February 26, 2020, 12:16:06 PM
acknowledging that college and above level education is not FOR everyone,  I do think it should be available to everyone.     What I mean is we need to people from all walks of life in higher education, not just from wealthy families.  And higher education shouldn't just be a job factory,  we NEED people studying just to study, in every subject imaginable.   Reforrming tuition and student loans is meant to help this along.

Honest question:  have you gone through the FAFSA process?

I had to google that, did you forget I'm canadian?  ;)  but the short answer is no I never had any financial aid for school other than my parents.

No, I know you are, but that's not to say you might not be familiar with it.  I think to some degree this issue is clouded with, if not "misinformation" (Fake News!) but maybe, lack of familiarity.  That's not a dig at you; you wouldn't know if you didn't actually involve yourself in it. I have. And I had to give volumes of information as part of that process.  They know whether I have money or not.  Many schools set their obligation based on that data.  So the notion that you go on a website, see that "Stadler University" charges $10,000 in tuition and $60,000 in room and board (for the experience!) and assume that only beyonaires can afford this is not accurate.   If you go down the hallway at my daughter's school, I'll be you there are 10 or more different actual amounts being paid.  Not every kid pays the same, and a large part of that difference is based on ability to pay.   

I'm not sure how much more progressive we can get on this.  What more "reform" is possible?

Trade schools and associate degrees cost students the same amount that grades K-12 cost them?

I would argue it does.

My town: total budget of roughly $138M.  Board of education budget:  $72M, or 52%.   My property taxes last year?  Roughly $8,700, 52% of which is $4,500.     Asnuntuck, a community college/trade school near me, has an annual tuition of about $4,400.    It's just paid differently.

What if you have more than one kid that wants an education beyond high school? I feel like your math only works if you have one kid that wants to go to that school. And even then, I don't think the argument really flies. That kid went to K-12 for no money out of their pocket.


What about the kids whose parents aren't paying that annual $4400 for them? When they get out of school, they'll be paying off that $4400 in addition to that 52% of their property tax.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 26, 2020, 12:27:33 PM
Well, no, it's not meant to be dollar for dollar.  The point was to respectfully and vociferously push back on this notion that they went to school "with no money out of pocket".   That's the misconception.   NONE OF THIS is "no money out of pocket".   If anything, K-12 is MORE expensive, because you have suckers like me paying the $4500 each year for the school system while my kid went to a private school 30 miles away (not only would I do it again, but we're advocating with my stepson's father that we need to be doing the same thing with him).   

(To further complicate matters, Asnuntuck gets money from the state as well, so we're actually subsidizing that already with our state income taxes; add to that about 65% of Asnuntuck students get grant money - that is, money that is NOT a loan and does NOT have to be paid back - and I ask again:  how much more progressive do we have to make this?)
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on February 26, 2020, 12:32:04 PM
Let me be clear here; if we all collectively decide that "education", like "healthcare", is a "basic human right" (I would disagree, but for arguments sake, let's say), then so be it.  Eyes wide open, let's do this.  I'm more pushing back on some of the misconceptions of the discussion, and primarily the notion that it's a "rigged system" with no clear solution for the Everyman.   

I think candidates like Bernie are throwing around $20, $30 TRILLION numbers without a lot of transparency or clarity and that's dangerous. 
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Phoenix87x on March 14, 2020, 11:52:25 AM
Student loan interest is on hold for a while if I'm reading this right

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/13/what-to-do-now-that-trump-suspended-student-loan-interest-payments.html

Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: El Barto on May 14, 2020, 12:26:17 PM
In the car during lunch today I was listening to a history professor talking about her book on cheating. She mentioned numerous letters Thomas Jefferson wrote to comrades about how to rip off the Red Man and take his land. Basically, Tom was encouraging the people running trading outposts, governmentally owned at the time, to encourage overspending. Since Tonto barely got the concept of a barter system, or ownership of land, and understood credit even less, it'd be a simple matter to get him massively into debt and seize his land as repayment. Is this acceptable? Is it the White Man's fault that the Indians don't really understand the terms of their agreements? It seems to me that pert near everybody would describe this as fucking disgraceful, but only because we're sympathetic to the Indians. Do it to a white guy and sympathy is replaced by "next time read the contract, dumbass." What's the difference?
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 14, 2020, 12:35:48 PM
In the car during lunch today I was listening to a history professor talking about her book on cheating. She mentioned numerous letters Thomas Jefferson wrote to comrades about how to rip off the Red Man and take his land. Basically, Tom was encouraging the people running trading outposts, governmentally owned at the time, to encourage overspending. Since Tonto barely got the concept of a barter system, or ownership of land, and understood credit even less, it'd be a simple matter to get him massively into debt and seize his land as repayment. Is this acceptable? Is it the White Man's fault that the Indians don't really understand the terms of their agreements? It seems to me that pert near everybody would describe this as fucking disgraceful, but only because we're sympathetic to the Indians. Do it to a white guy and sympathy is replaced by "next time read the contract, dumbass." What's the difference?

I don't think there's any 'good' way to look at what was done to the Native American Indians. It's pretty horrific actually. Absolutely nothing to be 'proud' of. I think it's just chalked up in history as in the age of conquest the Indians just 'lost'. 'Our' tactics were unfair and predatory and brutal but at the same time in that period of history it was still 'acceptable' to obtain land by all means necessary. It's a simplistic and brutal way to look at it and I in no way thing that what we did to 'win' was right....but, it happened and here we are.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: gmillerdrake on May 14, 2020, 12:38:42 PM
Piggy backing off that topic......I often wonder what this continent would look like had the Europeans never shown up. The Native American's were brutal towards each other....we know that, but....at the same time that culture and way of life was so much more in tune with the Natural World. Much more appreciation and respect shown to the land, animals and nature in general.

I wonder how the culture and civilization would have evolved? Where would it be now?
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: lordxizor on May 14, 2020, 12:41:17 PM
With the Indians, there was a language difference and a massive cultural divide being purposefully exploited. For the average white guy in America, they get what debt and property ownership are and they speak English. Which isn't to say people aren't being exploited, they certainly are, but it's not as bad as what was done to the Indians.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on May 14, 2020, 12:49:07 PM
In the car during lunch today I was listening to a history professor talking about her book on cheating. She mentioned numerous letters Thomas Jefferson wrote to comrades about how to rip off the Red Man and take his land. Basically, Tom was encouraging the people running trading outposts, governmentally owned at the time, to encourage overspending. Since Tonto barely got the concept of a barter system, or ownership of land, and understood credit even less, it'd be a simple matter to get him massively into debt and seize his land as repayment. Is this acceptable? Is it the White Man's fault that the Indians don't really understand the terms of their agreements? It seems to me that pert near everybody would describe this as fucking disgraceful, but only because we're sympathetic to the Indians. Do it to a white guy and sympathy is replaced by "next time read the contract, dumbass." What's the difference?

I'm not sure how much emphasis I would give this, but I see a fundamental difference.   The student living in Charlotte, NC, and availing themselves of all else this country has to offer, and remaining as a part of the social contract by whatever we're calling "choice" at this moment in time is different than someone that didn't ask to be part of the scheme, didn't buy into the scheme and certainly didn't acquiese to being bound by that scheme with any overt understanding or assent.    If this was a modern day scenario, there's almost no argument (other than fact specific things like age, infirmary, or fraud in the inducement) that the student is not competent to enter into the contract, or that the contract fails for lack of consideration.  I think there's a pretty darn good argument in the case of the American Indian.    Put in lay terms, the current student is like the refs calling Stephon Gilmore for pass interference; it may or may not be a good call, but everyone on the field knows the rules and have agreed, tacitly, that the refs are the final say in the matter.  The American Indian scenario is like Ed Hocule strolling into the Boston Garden ice and flagging Zdeno Chara for pass interference. 
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Chino on May 14, 2020, 12:55:14 PM
With the Indians, there was a language difference and a massive cultural divide being purposefully exploited.

Math is a language that many can't speak. It's incredibly easy to dupe and take advantage of those that can't do it. Just look at the Multi-Level Marketing schemes. It's not stupid 18 years old getting suckered. That demographic is 30 and 40 year old adults that just don't get math.

Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: El Barto on May 14, 2020, 12:59:35 PM
With the Indians, there was a language difference and a massive cultural divide being purposefully exploited.

Math is a language that many can't speak. It's incredibly easy to dupe and take advantage of those that can't do it. Just look at the Multi-Level Marketing schemes. It's not stupid 18 years old getting suckered. That demographic is 30 and 40 year old adults that just don't get math.
I think it's both. Those 18 year olds have quite often been conditioned to believe that their future depends on taking on debt. And how many of them can really understand the various rules regarding revolving credit. Debt that goes to the bottom of the pile, earns significantly greater interest, and can't be paid off until the debt on top of it is paid off. That sort of thing.

In any case, we're kind of demonstrating the point I was getting at. It's all a value decision, isn't it? This guy should have known better, but that guy shouldn't be expected to? 
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: lordxizor on May 14, 2020, 01:03:57 PM
With the Indians, there was a language difference and a massive cultural divide being purposefully exploited.

Math is a language that many can't speak. It's incredibly easy to dupe and take advantage of those that can't do it. Just look at the Multi-Level Marketing schemes. It's not stupid 18 years old getting suckered. That demographic is 30 and 40 year old adults that just don't get math.


True. But for the modern white guy it's at least still in a language they can speak. "Your interest rate is 10% a year, the term is 10 years, and your monthly payment is $400" is something a person of even below average intelligence should be able to to wrap their head around. Of course there are predatory lenders out there that outright lie, or lie by omitting some details. That's of course wrong. There are certainly improvements that need to be made to the lending process.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on May 14, 2020, 05:00:38 PM
I kind of like the analogy of the "language we can't speak", but that still doesn't absolve of responsibility.   I work for a multinational corporation that is headquartered in Europe (legit, not some tax shelter bull crap).   I'm in the middle of a negotiation now with a company from Quebec, and on the first call, there was me and a colleague (from New York) and three people from the other company.  At one point there was mumbling in French Canadian, and even though neither of us on our side speak French - either French Canadian or European French - I was able to squeak out "je ne parle francais" (roughly, "I don't speak French") with a laugh, hoping to disincent them from thinking they had an advantage.   Next call I made sure I had someone on the call that COULD speak French.

Again, at least the person today should KNOW there's a game, or know their limitations.  I don't think it's quite the same as springing an entirely new scheme on someone who up to that point lived under a different social construct.   And look; the American Indian probably didn't have a dog in the Revolution hunt, certainly didn't have a vote, didn't have a voice.  The people we're talking here, they get to be heard through their vote.  They get to tweet how deplorable the other side is, or how much the other side are snowflakes...   the social contract is not a one-way street.  I think if they're going to avail themselves of the good side of the society we live in, they at least have the responsibility of being self-aware as to the strengths and weaknesses they bring to that society.  That's a little harsher than I mean it to sound, but I'm two wines in and getting frustrated that Door Dash isn't here, so... 
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: eric42434224 on May 14, 2020, 06:18:09 PM
I was in investment sales for many years, and we had to make 100% sure that a client understood the risks of an investment.  Giving them the prospectus and saying, "they know the game and their limitations", or "they should know better" absolutely does not fly.  You have to have documented in your notes that things were explained, when and where, and what exactly was said....and clients need to sign off on this.  Lets not even get into if you have an elderly client....wow, then you need a compliance officer on the phone with them to make sure the clients understand.

Some times none of this is done many times it is ALL done, and clients complain.  Do you think firms say..."you should have known better"?  Hell no...they settle and give them their money back.
Clients have a mechanism to complain....all they have to do is call the bank and say the  words "complain"...and all kinds of protocols kick in, and the agents/reps are responsible to defend themselves, or it hits their licence.
The investment & banking industry has MASSIVE infrastructure around compliance, knowing your customer, appropriate recommendations, and making sure the client UNDERSTANDS the transaction.
We CLEARLY do not see that in the student loan industry.  That is not fair.  There is a fiduciary responsibility that the lenders should have, and a level of oversight and compliance monitoring that doesn't exist.

Yes the client should understand....but many times they dont, and with Student Loans, the lender needs to share in that responsibility to ensure there is a true meeting of the minds.

EDIT....and to be clear...I think a very large percentage of borrowers DO understand, or CHOSE not to work on understanding.  Unfortunately, there is a legitimate group that were given incorrect, incomplete, or "rosey" information.  Young adults borrowing money for school can be very vunerable, and we should legislate better practices and regulations to MAKE SURE they understand the consequenses of their actions.  JMO
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: El Barto on May 14, 2020, 07:38:45 PM
I kind of like the analogy of the "language we can't speak", but that still doesn't absolve of responsibility.   I work for a multinational corporation that is headquartered in Europe (legit, not some tax shelter bull crap).   I'm in the middle of a negotiation now with a company from Quebec, and on the first call, there was me and a colleague (from New York) and three people from the other company.  At one point there was mumbling in French Canadian, and even though neither of us on our side speak French - either French Canadian or European French - I was able to squeak out "je ne parle francais" (roughly, "I don't speak French") with a laugh, hoping to disincent them from thinking they had an advantage.   Next call I made sure I had someone on the call that COULD speak French.

Again, at least the person today should KNOW there's a game, or know their limitations.  I don't think it's quite the same as springing an entirely new scheme on someone who up to that point lived under a different social construct.   And look; the American Indian probably didn't have a dog in the Revolution hunt, certainly didn't have a vote, didn't have a voice.  The people we're talking here, they get to be heard through their vote.  They get to tweet how deplorable the other side is, or how much the other side are snowflakes...   the social contract is not a one-way street.  I think if they're going to avail themselves of the good side of the society we live in, they at least have the responsibility of being self-aware as to the strengths and weaknesses they bring to that society.  That's a little harsher than I mean it to sound, but I'm two wines in and getting frustrated that Door Dash isn't here, so...
Does the second paragraph apply to the elderly? The retarded? The old Mexican woman who dropped out of 4th grade to work on the farm? A person who hasn't reached whatever the relevant age is in their particular state? How many Motown recording artists died penniless despite their popularity? Do we blame them for not taking a lawyer along that they didn't know they needed? A person who spent two thirds of his life in prison? Do we need to codify rules to determine who we can and who we cannot rip off?
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on May 15, 2020, 08:22:20 AM
I dunno bud; some of those, at the level we're talking about - setting policy - I'm saying yes.   And bear in mind that I don't believe that "yes" exists in a vacuum.  I've been saying for DECADES that high schools ought to have classes that cover basic "life" shit, including, for those that might opt to move forward with education, student loans.  I'm also not averse to having programs for people that are well and truly taken advantage of; my position is not a "fuck 'em if they can't take a joke" position, it's just one that is loathe to establish blanket procedures that not only allows, but actually ENCOURAGES ignorance (in the "lack of knowledge" sense of the word).   The onus should be on making us all smarter and more aware, not dumbing things down so that everything is LCD. 

I don't think what I'm saying is "codifying rules to determine who we can and who we cannot rip off", I think it's more codifying rules as to what IS a rip off.   

(It's kind of a separate topic, but not all those examples are apples to apples either; the Motown artists were in a sense American Indians.   We can lament that, but in this day and age, I don't think it's unfair that we're asking that same dude that can play every single note of James Jamerson's (extensive) discography to also learn from his experience in the industry.  Sorry, but there's no excuse for any of those 80's LA dudes to complain about the contracts they signed; it was not uncharted territory.   There are also exceptions already in place for the retarded, the underage, and anyone else deemed uncapable of entering into a contract.)
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: El Barto on May 15, 2020, 08:58:09 AM
I dunno bud; some of those, at the level we're talking about - setting policy - I'm saying yes.   And bear in mind that I don't believe that "yes" exists in a vacuum.  I've been saying for DECADES that high schools ought to have classes that cover basic "life" shit, including, for those that might opt to move forward with education, student loans.  I'm also not averse to having programs for people that are well and truly taken advantage of; my position is not a "fuck 'em if they can't take a joke" position, it's just one that is loathe to establish blanket procedures that not only allows, but actually ENCOURAGES ignorance (in the "lack of knowledge" sense of the word).   The onus should be on making us all smarter and more aware, not dumbing things down so that everything is LCD. 

I don't think what I'm saying is "codifying rules to determine who we can and who we cannot rip off", I think it's more codifying rules as to what IS a rip off.   

(It's kind of a separate topic, but not all those examples are apples to apples either; the Motown artists were in a sense American Indians.   We can lament that, but in this day and age, I don't think it's unfair that we're asking that same dude that can play every single note of James Jamerson's (extensive) discography to also learn from his experience in the industry.  Sorry, but there's no excuse for any of those 80's LA dudes to complain about the contracts they signed; it was not uncharted territory.   There are also exceptions already in place for the retarded, the underage, and anyone else deemed uncapable of entering into a contract.)
Doesn't it feel odd, for you of all people, to be taking the position that we should be basing rules on value judgements, though? You say that you don't see it as codifying rules as to who can be ripped off. Yet you are codifying rules about who should have or couldn't have known better, based on an infinite number of variables, and for the former group, as you see them, they're fair game. "Well, he should have known that undercarriage treatment is a ripoff. Fabric treatment is just Scotchguard, FFS!"  Part of what gets me is the way we celebrate up to a point, and then deplore once they go over the vaguely defined line. It's the same point I made about any of the bullshit Patriots scandals. Belichick is a genius when he get's right up to the line, but the second he touches it he should be banned from the game for cheating. Signing somebody to a ridiculously one-sided contract because they didn't know any better shouldn't be judged based on our assessment of their mental faculties, genetics, ethnicity, or upbringing. You said the Motown artists should be viewed the same way as the Indians, but 80's rappers fit into the "they should have known better" category. You don't see the inherent problem in that?
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on May 15, 2020, 01:58:05 PM
Maybe I don't; if anything, though, I'm erring on the side of compassion unnecessarily.    When comparing Motown/Compton, the solution isn't to err further and include Compton, it's to say "well then, Motown should have known too".   I'm trying to be a realist about things.   When the Motown folks were digging in, the idea of a "music industry" wasn't at all the same as it is now.   If we agree that there's a value judgment, then I'm fine with throwing that out.   I tried to stick for the most part with legally accepted lines.   14 year olds can't marry, and in part that's because a marriage is a CONTRACT, and a 14 year old can't, in most instances, enter into a contract.  Same here.  If the student loan company fleeces them, it's not government activism that saves them, it's the general law of 200 and 40 some-odd years of jurisprudence that does.   But at some point we decide that that person is old enough to drink, vote, buy a gun, get married, have a kid, and die for their country.  And we can't trust them to cover their bases on a loan contract? 

I'm trying, albeit unsuccessfully, to draw a line that everyone can - grudgingly, if need be - live with, not that everyone loves.   We're here talking about <Charleton Heston voice> Big Bad Corporations <end voice> here, but what happens when you or I go to sell our car without getting fleeced by Car Max.  Do we have to walk through the mechanics of a gas-combustion engine, the pros-and-cons of an automatic transmission, and confirm understanding of the current state of the emissions control program on the car?   Or can we say "look, here's the offer, here's the car.  I can tell you what service records I have, I can arrange to have your mechanic look at it, but bro, as-is sale."    Getting a mechanic to look at a prospective car is the thing as getting a lawyer to look at a deal you're about to do.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: El Barto on May 15, 2020, 02:08:49 PM
Maybe I don't; if anything, though, I'm erring on the side of compassion unnecessarily.    When comparing Motown/Compton, the solution isn't to err further and include Compton, it's to say "well then, Motown should have known too".   I'm trying to be a realist about things.   When the Motown folks were digging in, the idea of a "music industry" wasn't at all the same as it is now.   If we agree that there's a value judgment, then I'm fine with throwing that out.   I tried to stick for the most part with legally accepted lines.   14 year olds can't marry, and in part that's because a marriage is a CONTRACT, and a 14 year old can't, in most instances, enter into a contract.  Same here.  If the student loan company fleeces them, it's not government activism that saves them, it's the general law of 200 and 40 some-odd years of jurisprudence that does.   But at some point we decide that that person is old enough to drink, vote, buy a gun, get married, have a kid, and die for their country.  And we can't trust them to cover their bases on a loan contract? 

I'm trying, albeit unsuccessfully, to draw a line that everyone can - grudgingly, if need be - live with, not that everyone loves.   We're here talking about <Charleton Heston voice> Big Bad Corporations <end voice> here, but what happens when you or I go to sell our car without getting fleeced by Car Max.  Do we have to walk through the mechanics of a gas-combustion engine, the pros-and-cons of an automatic transmission, and confirm understanding of the current state of the emissions control program on the car?   Or can we say "look, here's the offer, here's the car.  I can tell you what service records I have, I can arrange to have your mechanic look at it, but bro, as-is sale."    Getting a mechanic to look at a prospective car is the thing as getting a lawyer to look at a deal you're about to do.
I think you're looking for the fix in the wrong place, amigo. Instead of trying to square away the rules about who can be fleeced legally, maybe we should be deciding that nobody should be getting fleeced at all.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on May 15, 2020, 02:18:07 PM
Why though?  And that's not rhetorical, but pragmatic.  To me, the value judgment of "who can be fleeced and when" is a minor one in the context of the value judgement of "what is fleeced".   If my life goal is to own an "obelisk" from the Presence album cover, and I see one online line for $10,000 (they can go for anywhere from $2K to $5K), why is it anyone's business whether I do that deal or not?  And if I do that deal, why should I get any consolation if I regret it a week later? 

And at where do we draw the line on the other side;  if my credit is shot, am I getting "fleeced" with a 15% car loan?   An acquaintance spent a little time paying for his sins, and when he got out, the only legit loan he could get was a car loan at closer to 18%.  He took it, and worked to get that paid off to reestablish his presence.  Did he get "fleeced"?  Why should that lender be forced to take a flier on that guy?
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: El Barto on May 15, 2020, 02:27:30 PM
Why though?  And that's not rhetorical, but pragmatic.  To me, the value judgment of "who can be fleeced and when" is a minor one in the context of the value judgement of "what is fleeced".   If my life goal is to own an "obelisk" from the Presence album cover, and I see one online line for $10,000 (they can go for anywhere from $2K to $5K), why is it anyone's business whether I do that deal or not?  And if I do that deal, why should I get any consolation if I regret it a week later? 

And at where do we draw the line on the other side;  if my credit is shot, am I getting "fleeced" with a 15% car loan?   An acquaintance spent a little time paying for his sins, and when he got out, the only legit loan he could get was a car loan at closer to 18%.  He took it, and worked to get that paid off to reestablish his presence.  Did he get "fleeced"?  Why should that lender be forced to take a flier on that guy?
In the end, isn't it easier to define a fleecing than a person's ability to read the fine print?

And I get that I'm being a hopeless idealist right now (Christ, never thought I'd be typing that sentence fragment), but it just strikes me that something is wrong when we pick and choose who got gets sympathy and who gets scorn when they get screwed over based on our own subjective valuation of their understandings.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Stadler on May 18, 2020, 10:40:24 AM
Haha, time out over.  :)  It was 75 and beautiful up here, so I spent most of the weekend outside doing work around the yard/house.  Felt good.

But - respectful of your idealism - it might be "easier", but it's still a value judgment.  If the problem is that we're picking and choosing, I'm fine with resorting back to bare bones "if you're a competent adult, it's on you to know what you're getting into".  I was just trying to be sensitive to circumstances I wasn't part of.
Title: Re: College Debt, Car Loans, etc...
Post by: Ben_Jamin on May 18, 2020, 03:53:47 PM
In the car during lunch today I was listening to a history professor talking about her book on cheating. She mentioned numerous letters Thomas Jefferson wrote to comrades about how to rip off the Red Man and take his land. Basically, Tom was encouraging the people running trading outposts, governmentally owned at the time, to encourage overspending. Since Tonto barely got the concept of a barter system, or ownership of land, and understood credit even less, it'd be a simple matter to get him massively into debt and seize his land as repayment. Is this acceptable? Is it the White Man's fault that the Indians don't really understand the terms of their agreements? It seems to me that pert near everybody would describe this as fucking disgraceful, but only because we're sympathetic to the Indians. Do it to a white guy and sympathy is replaced by "next time read the contract, dumbass." What's the difference?

I don't think there's any 'good' way to look at what was done to the Native American Indians. It's pretty horrific actually. Absolutely nothing to be 'proud' of. I think it's just chalked up in history as in the age of conquest the Indians just 'lost'. 'Our' tactics were unfair and predatory and brutal but at the same time in that period of history it was still 'acceptable' to obtain land by all means necessary. It's a simplistic and brutal way to look at it and I in no way thing that what we did to 'win' was right....but, it happened and here we are.

We haven't "Lost" nor have We given up. That thought of us being the losers of conquest is why we are struggling to regain what we have lost. It's an automatic assumption of us submitting to Outside influences.

Example is the current situation with South Dakotas Governor.