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General => General Discussion => Topic started by: KevShmev on January 26, 2020, 12:37:42 PM
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Apparently killed in a helicopter crash this morning.
Wow.
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LA Times has confirmed the helicopter crash, but hasn't confirmed those that passed yet. They are looking into that.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-01-26/aircraft-slams-into-hillside-explodes-in-flames-near-calabasas
https://twitter.com/latimes/status/1221517388056629248
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As much as I hate TMZ, they don't generally get these sorts of things wrong. That's too bad.
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Wuh? Don't see it reported anywhere but TMZ. If true.... holy crap.
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Holy fuck! Jingle.son just came in to tell me this. Wow
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Wow, that's a shocking death and terrible
https://nypost.com/2020/01/26/kobe-bryant-reportedly-killed-in-california-helicopter-crash/ (https://nypost.com/2020/01/26/kobe-bryant-reportedly-killed-in-california-helicopter-crash/)
Seems confirmed as its starting to come out from other sites
damn, I was never a huge NBA fan but he was a great player to watch for so long and I loved and still say "Kobe" when shooting pretty much anything (mostly paper into trash cans)
RIP
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Wow. Unreal
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That's awful, I am speechless at this moment.
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Wow!
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Adrian Wojnarowski at ESPN has it now, so this appears to be real.
Years down the line this might be one of those "I remember where I was when I first read this" moments. Right here, of all places.
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4 daughters. So damn sad.
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4 daughters. So damn sad.
Yeah, was reading the quick bio on TMZ...just heartbreaking.
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ABC reporting his daughters were on board. Christ.
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You will never see my ass get on helicopter.
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ABC reporting his daughters were on board. Christ.
Please let this not be true. It’s heartbreaking enough......
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This has been one messed up weekend.
Thoughts go out to his family.
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ABC reporting his daughters were on board. Christ.
I haven’t found this. Is there a link?
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ABC reporting his daughters were on board. Christ.
Please let this not be true. It’s heartbreaking enough......
Hoping this is wrong. I hope the saving grace is one daughter is 7 months old and why would you bring her up in a helicopter? I hope that's a false report.
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See it referenced in another board that ABC was reporting it. However, since then, they're had been "confirmation" they they weren't. This early, with this many reporters racing to be first, the signal to noise ratio will not be good...
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TMZ just tweeted out one of his daughters was on the helicopter. God, I hope that is not right.
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TMZ just tweeted out one of his daughters was on the helicopter. God, I hope that is not right.
There are a few sites saying it was him, his 13 year old daughter and three others. Heartbreaking
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also Rick Fox was on board.
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also Rick Fox was on board.
That seems to be a rumor? Someone said they have been texting with him since the crash
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Adrian Wojnarowski
@wojespn
Sources: Kobe Bryant was on his way to a travel basketball game with his daughter Gianna when the helicopter crashed. Those aboard the helicopter also included another player and parent.
just awful.
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also Rick Fox was on board.
That seems to be a rumor? Someone said they have been texting with him since the crash
yeah, it seems so.
https://twitter.com/LionBabe/status/1221536933555396612
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My alltime favourite basketball player. Been glued to the TV (and then later the computer) whenever the Lakers or the US national team played. Very enjoyable. (the circumstances surrounding it all make me think of Randy Rhoads' untimely demise as well)
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Truly heartbreaking. RIP Kobe.
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Spurs and Raptors both let the shot clock run out to honor Kobe’s Jersey (#24)
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Don't know anything about basketball but I know the caliber of player this guy was. Truly awful story.
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Spurs and Raptors both let the shot clock run out to honor Kobe’s Jersey (#24)
Wonder if every game will do this today?
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Spurs and Raptors both let the shot clock run out to honor Kobe’s Jersey (#24)
Wonder if every game will do this today?
It seems that way. Celtics are about to start momentarily.
And yes, what an awesome way to start the game.
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ABC reporting his daughters were on board. Christ.
Please let this not be true. It’s heartbreaking enough......
Hoping this is wrong. I hope the saving grace is one daughter is 7 months old and why would you bring her up in a helicopter? I hope that's a false report.
I read earlier that Kobe would take helicopters multiple times a day because he lived over an hour (by road) from where he would practice. He and his family were probably just as comfortable in a helicopter as most people are taking the highway.
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Now being reported 9 people on board instead of 5.
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I live near there. The fog/clouds were SO THICK this morning, I don't see how anyone could even think to fly. Wow.
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I was driving through that area around that.. Strange thing is I almost took a route that would have had me drive right by there but wound up not doing so because of the fog.
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Giannis has deleted his social media.
He’s been working out with Kobe the last couple off seasons. Obviously taking the news very hard.
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I saw video of that fog/those conditions. Unbelievable.
We're getting a lot of this story, because the helicopter was a Sikorsky, and they are headquartered about an hour down the road from me.
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Yea the fog was pretty intense this morning.
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I can't be bothered to read peoples' tweets about this - I generally can't be bothered to read peoples' tweets about anything, and wrote something to that effect, then realized this wasn't the thread for that and deleted it - but I did enjoy watching Kareem's video. That 1:45 was more touching and heartfelt than anything I've seen all day (granting it isn't fair to compare a video to a text).
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The fog was so thick, police copters were grounded.
Based on the flight pattern shown on the news, they took off from Newport Beach, then struggled to keep going once they were over L.A. They tried to get around the fog, but didn't make it I guess. Police and NTSB are still investigating.
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So sad! My gf and I were in Glendale, CA this weekend to see Sons of Apollo play at the Roxy on the Sunset Strip Saturday night. The next morning upon our check out from the Embassy Suites and having brunch, soon learned of the tragedy. Such a shock to know that this happened only a few 10’s of miles from where we were. RIP Kobe, your young daughter Gigi and 7 others. Such a tragic loss. :(
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Watching an ESPN Sportsenter special on him today. As I said, I didn't know a great deal about him other than his name and status. Amazing athlete with such a strong mindset, seemed like a great role model for people trying to persue a career in the game and a great attitude for attacking life in general. All the other sports stars and celebs visibly shaken up and their words of respect really shows what an icon he was. Such an awful tragedy that seems could have been avoided. You have to feel for his wife and other 3 children.
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The kid component of this tragedy is really getting me. His daughter and the other daughter.....I can’t imagine as a parent that final 30/45 seconds when the realization hit that they were going to crash....what’d you’d do for your child as they’d clearly be in a panic and fear. I can’t seem to stop thinking about that. It’s brutal and heartbreaking
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I can't be bothered to read peoples' tweets about this - I generally can't be bothered to read peoples' tweets about anything, and wrote something to that effect, then realized this wasn't the thread for that and deleted it - but I did enjoy watching Kareem's video. That 1:45 was more touching and heartfelt than anything I've seen all day (granting it isn't fair to compare a video to a text).
The video with Doc Rivers got to me.
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The kid component of this tragedy is really getting me. His daughter and the other daughter.....I can’t imagine as a parent that final 30/45 seconds when the realization hit that they were going to crash....what’d you’d do for your child as they’d clearly be in a panic and fear. I can’t seem to stop thinking about that. It’s brutal and heartbreaking
I had the same thought. Terrible.
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I can't be bothered to read peoples' tweets about this - I generally can't be bothered to read peoples' tweets about anything, and wrote something to that effect, then realized this wasn't the thread for that and deleted it - but I did enjoy watching Kareem's video. That 1:45 was more touching and heartfelt than anything I've seen all day (granting it isn't fair to compare a video to a text).
Start another thread, then, because you're not alone. The phrase I repeat most often in my head: "What color is the sun in your world?"
To the subject, it's hard not to reflect after events like these. He and his daughter were just at a Uconn basketball game, and it was news, because the daughter had dreams of playing for Geno Auriemma. He (Auriemma) is a Philly guy, Kobe is a Philly-ish guy, Uconn is probably the best women's program, if not in history, then over the past 20 years... it seemed like a match made in heaven. Having just - more or less - just sent two daughters off into the wild, it resonates. Whether Kobe was the greatest ever* or just another Joe Schmoe, there's a degree to which man plans, and God laughs.
* I lean towards if not the greatest - that's still probably Jordan - one of the top three. I loved his style, I loved his game. He was no-bullshit, no games, in a league that is increasingly a lot of bullshit and a lot of games, and he played in probably the mecca for bullshit and games. I listened to him not long ago explain the idea of "Black Mamba" on, of all places, Ridiculousness, and it's really hard to not be impressed with his work ethic and his tenacity. That sometimes got him in trouble, but over all I think that was an admirable trait for him.
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I was at the Spurs game and it was surreal. A lot of people didn't know about the accident. My wife got a notification when we were driving from Austin to the game. A lot of people were talking about the event at the lines waiting to enter the arena. When the lights went out and the Kobe image appeared on the board, there were a lot of gasps and "oh nos" and "whats!". Duncan, Hammon and Popovich where in tears during the tribute.
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What's the deal with the "shot clock" tribute. I've heard this a couple times now. What, each team let's the shot clock run down out of respect for Kobe? That's kind of cool, if you ask me. Kind of gives a subtle nod to his impact on the game, but recognizing that it IS a game and a life in it's prime out of basketball - nine lives, actually - was just lost.
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Yeah, the shot clock in the NBA is 24 seconds and he wore number 24 so it lined up well.
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great attitude for attacking life in general.
That is an interesting (but unintentional, give that you don't really know his history) choice of words!
He raped a girl in 2003, and when she reported it, she was intimidated, bullied and traduced by his legal team out of testifying or continuing on with the criminal complaint (they publicized her name and sexual history, and Kobe/Laker fans made her life living hell). They settled, he admitted it, and this case is why Colorado significantly strengthened their "rape shield" laws, protecting victims.
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The kid component of this tragedy is really getting me. His daughter and the other daughter.....I can’t imagine as a parent that final 30/45 seconds when the realization hit that they were going to crash....what’d you’d do for your child as they’d clearly be in a panic and fear. I can’t seem to stop thinking about that. It’s brutal and heartbreaking
it is, but based on the the description I saw of it by an eye witness (older guy who seemed really smart and knew his stuff), it sounds like the pilot did not know the hill was there and flew into it, so it is likely that death was nearly instantaneous for everyone, which is all you can hope for, that way no one suffered.
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great attitude for attacking life in general.
That is an interesting (but unintentional, give that you don't really know his history) choice of words!
He raped a girl in 2003, and when she reported it, she was intimidated, bullied and traduced by his legal team out of testifying or continuing on with the criminal complaint (they publicized her name and sexual history, and Kobe/Laker fans made her life living hell). They settled, he admitted it, and this case is why Colorado significantly strengthened their "rape shield" laws, protecting victims.
Yea, the whole rape thing was pretty bad. It seems no one is talking about this, and I guess part of the reason why is because he seemed to be a much better human since then, but I don't really know.
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I needed a place to put down my thoughts. Hope you all don't mind.
First and foremost, my thoughts and prayers with the Bryant family and their close friends. The loss of so many lives, including those young kids, it's just horrible.
I remember watching Kobe his rookie year. At least I think it was his rookie year in the 96/97 season. The Lakers were playing Utah (again, memory fuzzy, but I could swear it was them). Kobe came off the bench, and played hero ball. Totally took over. And you can see his teammates standing around like "WTF?" At the time, I was appalled. I mean, this punk ass kid, showing up everyone and ballin' out. Sure, he was talented, but that was ridiculous. I remember thinking he should ride the pine after that. And low and behold, he did. I think he was benched the next game as a punishment and as a lesson. But you could tell there was something special about that kid.
The next time I remember seeing him, and I can't recall the opponent, he was still a rookie. I think it was a playoff game, again against the Jazz, and he shot like shit and airballed. He only played a few minutes, and I recall saying something to the effect of "this kid better learn some humility, because he's going to be shit unless he figures out how to play within a team." Well, we all know that Kobe did indeed figure it out. I loved watching him play basketball, particularly as he grew older. He had that knack that only Jordan had -- you knew he could score anywhere, at any time, and played rope-a-dope early on, toying with the opponent and just feeling it out, setting up guys and making everyone better. And then, like Jordan, he took over. And you knew if he got on that roll, you were screwed.
When the news came out about him cheating on his wife, and the unclear story whether it was consensual or non-consensual, I really lost a lot of respect for Kobe Bryant. His wife Vanessa, I thought was weak for forgiving him. And I thought that she did herself a disservice because of Kobe's wallet, and she wanted to live a lifestyle at the expense of her integrity. It really bothered me, and I remembering checking out of the Kobe fandom after that. But as he grew older, had children of his own, and matured, I noticed that Kobe seemed (at least in the public eye, and not knowing him or anyone he knows at all) particularly focused on being a good husband, and later, father. He made big strides to almost live every day realizing what a huge mistake he made, and seemed to try and make sure he earned the forgiveness from his family. He took it to another level with his daughters (again, at least what you can see in public). As a father, as a coach, everything. He seemed to live every day continually trying to be the best father and family man he could. And while I don't know him, my thoughts shifted, thinking that unlike a lot of famous people who get caught doing something wrong, and pay lip service with fake apologies, that Kobe truly did realize what an idiot he was, and lived a life repenting from his infidelity. It just FELT like that to me. I could be way off. But he matured, and realized he should spend the rest of his life showing the right example to his daughters. I respected that.
During his last game, while it was overly indulgent, I saw that maturity. Kobe wasn't looking to score 60. His teammates were making him shoot. And while he missed a boatload of shots, given all the injuries he had, it was an amazing performance. I thought the "Mamba Out" mic drop was dumb, but overall, watching that maturity of Kobe over the years, I really came to appreciate his dedication to his work, his devotion and repentance to his family.
As the father of a young girl myself, yesterday made me bawl like a baby. All those children on that helicopter, gone. And now all those families suffering. I feel that in any similar situation, but obviously the high profile Bryant family and the spotlight on it just deepened the sadness. Hug your kids folks. And if you haven't been a great parent or spouse - be one. Because it isn't about always getting it right. It's about the effort to be a better parent and spouse and how much you care. That's what's remembered when you're gone.
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great attitude for attacking life in general.
That is an interesting (but unintentional, give that you don't really know his history) choice of words!
He raped a girl in 2003, and when she reported it, she was intimidated, bullied and traduced by his legal team out of testifying or continuing on with the criminal complaint (they publicized her name and sexual history, and Kobe/Laker fans made her life living hell). They settled, he admitted it, and this case is why Colorado significantly strengthened their "rape shield" laws, protecting victims.
Yea, the whole rape thing was pretty bad. It seems no one is talking about this, and I guess part of the reason why is because he seemed to be a much better human since then, but I don't really know.
It seems like women who dare mention it on Twitter are getting threatened. Because of course they fucking are. :-\ There are some outlets that are broaching it head-on, some that glancingly acknowledge it (in such a way to downplay it), and some engaged in full-on hagiography. That whole shitshow was a significant contributor to why women don't report (especially when a rich/famous/powerful man is involved). Redemption is a weird thing in all of this...he has done a lot of good since then, but what he did (and what his lawyers did on his behalf) was horrifying. I think we just have to hold both thoughts at the same time...he did some great things, some terrible things, he was a complex human being. Neither side can or should be erased, and both should be fully acknowledged. Every time an outlet glosses over or ignores the sexual assault, it's further erasure of victims, and a further entrenchment of the idea that a rich/powerful man can make anything go away, even in death.
EDIT: A female WaPo reporter simply tweeted an article about the rape, got 10,000 death/abuse threats...and was put on administrative leave for "violation social media policy" https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7932771/Journalist-suspended-tweeting-link-story-Kobe-Bryants-rape-case-2003.html
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The fact that several kids died is what makes this a tragedy. Kobe was a great basketball player (one of the best ever) but his death is not why this is sad to me. Dude did some good things after the rape but he's still a rapist.
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It seems like women who dare mention it on Twitter are getting threatened. Because of course they fucking are. :-\ There are some outlets that are broaching it head-on, some that glancingly acknowledge it (in such a way to downplay it), and some engaged in full-on hagiography. That whole shitshow was a significant contributor to why women don't report (especially when a rich/famous/powerful man is involved). Redemption is a weird thing in all of this...he has done a lot of good since then, but what he did (and what his lawyers did on his behalf) was horrifying. I think we just have to hold both thoughts at the same time...he did some great things, some terrible things, he was a complex human being. Neither side can or should be erased, and both should be fully acknowledged. Every time an outlet glosses over or ignores the sexual assault, it's further erasure of victims, and a further entrenchment of the idea that a rich/powerful man can make anything go away, even in death.
While I agree in spirit, it hasn't even been 24 hours. I don't think it's the right time to bring it up. Heck, I was never a fan of his at all, but it just feels like having that conversation while his body is still warm is a bit unseemly, especially since 8 others lost their lives as well. Maybe I am wrong.
Besides, Twitter is a sewer.
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Well, we pretty clearly established here in the past couple weeks that there's no place for anything less than gushing admiration for our deceased heroes. I know I wasn't going to mention it outright on a bet (though I put language in that one could conclude alluded to it, without being too overt or controversial).
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The fact that several kids died is what makes this a tragedy. Kobe was a great basketball player (one of the best ever) but his death is not why this is sad to me. Dude did some good things after the rape but he's still a rapist.
This is what I was just typing and my sentiments exactly. These kids dying so young in that fashion is what is brutal about this. Kobe, the Coach and his wife and the other adults dying is horrible also....but at least they had the opportunity to live some life....these kids passing is just tough to think about.
IMO it's pretty frightening that his past history that involves raping and then threatening a woman to the point of the law suit being settled out of court is being brushed aside and largely ignored by the media just because he died tragically. I completely believe in redemption and forgiveness and it appears that the man had made it a mission to 'go good' ever since the rape allegations and aftermath. And maybe this is a case of a lot of people not wanting to speak ill of the dead...but the magnitude of the allegations and his all but admittance to them shouldn't be hidden just because it's inconvenient to this 'hero' story going on now.
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It seems like women who dare mention it on Twitter are getting threatened. Because of course they fucking are. :-\ There are some outlets that are broaching it head-on, some that glancingly acknowledge it (in such a way to downplay it), and some engaged in full-on hagiography. That whole shitshow was a significant contributor to why women don't report (especially when a rich/famous/powerful man is involved). Redemption is a weird thing in all of this...he has done a lot of good since then, but what he did (and what his lawyers did on his behalf) was horrifying. I think we just have to hold both thoughts at the same time...he did some great things, some terrible things, he was a complex human being. Neither side can or should be erased, and both should be fully acknowledged. Every time an outlet glosses over or ignores the sexual assault, it's further erasure of victims, and a further entrenchment of the idea that a rich/powerful man can make anything go away, even in death.
While I agree in spirit, it hasn't even been 24 hours. I don't think it's the right time to bring it up. Heck, I was never a fan of his at all, but it just feels like having that conversation while his body is still warm is a bit unseemly, especially since 8 others lost their lives as well. Maybe I am wrong.
Besides, Twitter is a sewer.
I sort of understand the reflex to say it's not the right time, but that raises the question of when the right time is? in a week, it's not the right time because of the funeral. In two weeks, it's not the right time because it should have been brought up before and now the matter has gotten "cold". Ignoring it yesterday/today/tomorrow just reinforces the idea that victims can be erased...and my sympathies lie much more with victims (both the direct victim, and every other woman who was influenced not not report by what was done to KB's victim) than with KB's legacy. Deferring it just reinforces rape culture.
I am of course not saying her deserved to die, that the loss of his daughter is not heart-rendingly tragic, that the destruction of the family isn't heartbreaking, and there were many other lives shattered. It's just the we can *(and need to) hold these thoughts in our head simultaneously.
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I don't see why people can't talk about it. He wasn't perfect, no one is. Painting that picture is false. We should be honest here.
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And I can't help but think that if he weren't such a popular guy for his play then the rape would be the first thing people had to say about it. If it were OJ would people's first reaction be to think of his family, or to comment on the murders? I certainly don't think a "burn in hell mother fucker!" is appropriate in either case, but it would certainly be a lot of people's first reaction if he were somebody without Kobe's celebrity. As Millah said, people need to be able to hold both the good and the bad in their thoughts. Sadly, that's not something many people are willing and/or able to do. In this Kobe's game gets him a pass.
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I don't have a problem with people talking about. I just don't think it's fair to concentrate on just that when 1) that case was "resolved" over a decade ago and 2) and some have pointed out, he tried very hard afterwards to prove he could be a good father/husband/mentor/coach.
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Not a fan of his, was never a fan...I stopped watching the NBA a long, long time ago, since I prefer college basketball. He isn't the first celebrity to be killed in an air accident and won't be the last, but it's incredibly scary and horrific to imagine now that I have kids.
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As long as you don't fly on helicopters, you're good.
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As long as you don't fly on helicopters, you're good.
Someone in the US is killed in a car accident every 14 minutes.
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As long as you don't fly on helicopters, you're good.
More specifically, as long as you don't fly when everyone else says not to due to the weather. It feels this could have been avoided which makes it so much worse.
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It's debatable as to whether or not choppers are safer than cars. It's a hard comparison to make. In his case he was probably safer in the air, though. A simple point A to point B flight with a presumably qualified pilot and well maintained AC. I'll be interested to know if they filed and IFR flight plan, which should have been reasonably safe, or if they were simply winging it VFR, which would have been foolhardy, to say the least.
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As long as you don't fly on helicopters, you're good.
Someone in the US is killed in a car accident every 14 minutes.
I design parts of helicopters as my job so that was a feeble attempt at a halfhearted joke. Should've probably posted it in green.
Car accidents are indeed way worse if we're talking mortality rates.
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As long as you don't fly on helicopters, you're good.
More specifically, as long as you don't fly when everyone else says not to due to the weather. It feels this could have been avoided which makes it so much worse.
I really hope he didn't demand the pilot to fly in that weather to get them to the game.
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As long as you don't fly on helicopters, you're good.
More specifically, as long as you don't fly when everyone else says not to due to the weather. It feels this could have been avoided which makes it so much worse.
I really hope he didn't demand the pilot to fly in that weather to get them to the game.
That's still on the pilot. And if I've got Koby Briant's money and I'm interviewing pilots, one of the first things I'm looking for is a willingness to tell me to fuck off if the situation commands it. I've seen nothing that leads me to believe the decision to fly was a mistake. While the fog certainly added complexity to the flight, a functioning nav system and good IFR skills should have made the flight reasonably safe.
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As long as you don't fly on helicopters, you're good.
Someone in the US is killed in a car accident every 14 minutes.
I design parts of helicopters as my job so that was a feeble attempt at a halfhearted joke. Should've probably posted it in green.
Car accidents are indeed way worse if we're talking mortality rates.
I think we should listen to El Barto on this; we're in his wheelhouse, so to speak, and there are far more variables in play here (volume of vehicle/helicopter traffic, impact of weather on same, level of risk of complicating factors, etc.).
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Didn't the LAPD ground all their aircraft due to weather? If so, I'm not entirely sure how the heli would be safer than driving in this case. But what do I know, getting around the LA are via car certainly is a disaster itself.
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As long as you don't fly on helicopters, you're good.
More specifically, as long as you don't fly when everyone else says not to due to the weather. It feels this could have been avoided which makes it so much worse.
I really hope he didn't demand the pilot to fly in that weather to get them to the game.
That's still on the pilot. And if I've got Koby Briant's money and I'm interviewing pilots, one of the first things I'm looking for is a willingness to tell me to fuck off if the situation commands it. I've seen nothing that leads me to believe the decision to fly was a mistake. While the fog certainly added complexity to the flight, a functioning nav system and good IFR skills should have made the flight reasonably safe.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7934407/amp/Helicopter-crashed-killing-Kobe-8-circled-15-minutes-Burbank.html
Seems the pilot was granted permission to fly despite the weather.
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The LAPD was simply working a policy decision. Plenty of other AC were flying IFR, and there's no reason Kobe couldn't. However, they're clearly flying VFR and the pilot clearly flew right into a fog bank. He might not have known it was coming, but it's still on the pilot. It looks like he was trying to fly around it, but if the fog blows W-E that's a pretty poor bet considering he's trying to fly SW (back to the 101).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=143&v=B0pQfgi9ZqU&feature=emb_title
Disregard the "you're too low!" that the media will sensationalize. The controller said he was too low for flight following. That's a very different thing.
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I design parts of helicopters as my job so that was a feeble attempt at a halfhearted joke. Should've probably posted it in green.
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I worked for a helicopter manufacturing company in the accident investigation department for a few years. It was a shock when I started working there since I got ALL the notifications including accidents, crashes and incidents from ALL helicopter manufacturers worldwide. I think the human factor on both the pilot and control towers (and possibly the company who owned the chopper) will be scrutinized a lot if there is no mechanical issue identified. And by human, I'm not talking about just the pilots and ATC, but I mean, the procedures that were set and followed, not followed, etc. for letting a chopper fly in that kind of weather.
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As long as you don't fly on helicopters, you're good.
More specifically, as long as you don't fly when everyone else says not to due to the weather. It feels this could have been avoided which makes it so much worse.
I really hope he didn't demand the pilot to fly in that weather to get them to the game.
That's still on the pilot. And if I've got Koby Briant's money and I'm interviewing pilots, one of the first things I'm looking for is a willingness to tell me to fuck off if the situation commands it. I've seen nothing that leads me to believe the decision to fly was a mistake. While the fog certainly added complexity to the flight, a functioning nav system and good IFR skills should have made the flight reasonably safe.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7934407/amp/Helicopter-crashed-killing-Kobe-8-circled-15-minutes-Burbank.html
Seems the pilot was granted permission to fly despite the weather.
That's not entirely accurate. He took off under VFR. There's no special permission required for that. He transitioned to SVFR while already in the air. Any way you slice it this will be on the pilot, though. Not necessarily for his decision to make the flight to begin with, again, it could have been done safely, but for flying VFR into a mountain. There will be some extenuating circumstances, though. Billionaire passenger in a hurry will certainly be one. Also, taking off VFR and then asking to transition to IFR is kind of seen as a dick move. If you've gotta do it then you've gotta do it, but controllers really don't like it. You're basically bypassing all of their neatly arranged organization and barging in once you've skipped the hard part.
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What's "VFR" and "IFR" (I didn't watch the video)?
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Visual Flight Rules (VFR), Instrument Flight Rules (IFR).
I don't remember much (and too lazy to look it up now) but I believe IFR is used when weather condition might limit your visibility to 2 miles or less (someone correct me if I'm wrong).
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What's "VFR" and "IFR" (I didn't watch the video)?
Visual flight rules is when you hop in the family truckster and head to Hartford to catch a show. You're relying on your own ability to navigate there safely and you're doing your own thing. In aviation terms you're depending on having visual clues to fly by, specifically the ground and horizon, along with some visibility for other aircraft. It's recommended that you file a flight plan so that if you don't show up somewhere in X amount of time they'll know where to look for the bodies, but you don't have to. Instrument flight rules are far more complex, and are at play when you won't be able to see the ground, horizon, traffic, etc. You'll file a flight plan and ATC will direct you on all legs of your flight. You'll follow set waypoints and maintain directed speed and altitude. You also have to be qualified to fly with no visual references. In training they actually put a visor of your head that restricts your view to nothing but the instruments. This is where JFK Jr. screwed the pooch. With no visual references it's easy to roll, climb, or dive without actually noticing until things turn catastrophic. In a modern aircraft the flight director will handle that for you, though. ATC tells you to turn this direction, climb to this altitude, and maintain this speed, and you just program it into the FD.
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El B - thanks for all the info. Helps understand it better.
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Yeah, I appreciate that very much. Thank you.
SO IFR is NOT auto-pilot, then, but rather you're flying but relying on gauges and data instead of looking where you're going.
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Just wondering what you all think about this. I'm seeing some tweets that TMZ broke the story of Kobe's death before the family was officially notified.
Now I get it. They are a gossip rag and it's their business to report on famous people. But someone had to have leaked the manifest to them. Isn't it the authorities job to inform the next-of-kin BEFORE the information is released? Can any of you imagine finding out your spouse and child died on a news report?
I heard a rumor that one of Kobe's surviving children was rushed to the hospital after having a severe asthma attack upon hearing the unconfirmed news. :censored
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Yeah, I appreciate that very much. Thank you.
SO IFR is NOT auto-pilot, then, but rather you're flying but relying on gauges and data instead of looking where you're going.
That's correct, but for the most part you'd use the AP in that situation*. See above about JFK Jr. But that's only part of it. There's an IFR qualification (instrument rating): can you do it. There's an IFR certification for the aircraft: is it properly equipped. Then there's the different role of ATC. In VFR they're content to leave you to your own devices. In an IFR flight they're assuming a great deal of responsibility for you.
I'm referring to IFR in general, and thus mostly fixed wing aircraft. Autopilots in helicopters aren't common, nor are they particularly advanced. I'm not certain, but I believe you're pretty much going to have to "hand fly" it, including when you're lost in the fog.
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great attitude for attacking life in general.
That is an interesting (but unintentional, give that you don't really know his history) choice of words!
He raped a girl in 2003, and when she reported it, she was intimidated, bullied and traduced by his legal team out of testifying or continuing on with the criminal complaint (they publicized her name and sexual history, and Kobe/Laker fans made her life living hell). They settled, he admitted it, and this case is why Colorado significantly strengthened their "rape shield" laws, protecting victims.
Yeah, I didn't know that. Doesn't really change anything for me, not that I really had much thought about the whole subject anyway. I'm sure he was a better man after that ordeal, seems that way. It doesn't really matter now.
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Just wondering what you all think about this. I'm seeing some tweets that TMZ broke the story of Kobe's death before the family was officially notified.
Now I get it. They are a gossip rag and it's their business to report on famous people. But someone had to have leaked the manifest to them. Isn't it the authorities job to inform the next-of-kin BEFORE the information is released? Can any of you imagine finding out your spouse and child died on a news report?
I heard a rumor that one of Kobe's surviving children was rushed to the hospital after having a severe asthma attack upon hearing the unconfirmed news. :censored
They're scumbags. I really hate TMZ. That said, they're filling a demand. Most of us here were sifting through the news looking for gory details as soon as Kev mentioned it. And the reality, in this case, is that the family was going to hear about it before Johnny made the trip out there anyway.
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TMZ is a trashy gossip site, but I don't think there is a news site or channel in the world that would have sat on that info once it was in their hands and confirmed by their reliable sources. It sucks, no one will ever accuse the media of caring about decency and respect in these situations; it's all about being the first to break the story.
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My question is how did they get the story? Someone had to have leaked it. Multiple witnesses saw the helicopter go down. They wouldn't know who was on it. The only possible way was that someone who looked at the manifest
leaked it sold the info for cold, hard, cash. THAT person needs to lose their job at the very least.
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I don't blame a news organization for dumping that immediately. TMZ is getting a lot of shit for it because they're TMZ, but if it was CNN or Fox News that broke this story, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.
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I don't blame a news organization for dumping that immediately. TMZ is getting a lot of shit for it because they're TMZ, but if it was CNN or Fox News that broke this story, I don't think we'd be having this discussion.
exactly. Which leads directly to Harmony's question. Someone knew that Kobe was on that helicopter and got that info out there pretty quick. I doubt that TMZ or CNN could call the airport and ask "who was on that flight that just crashed" and get an answer. Someone sold that info...or leaked it at best. It's that person(s) that would be the real dicks here.
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Problem is, TMZ has been getting these stories right while sites like ABC had all the kids passing away.
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My question is how did they get the story? Someone had to have leaked it. Multiple witnesses saw the helicopter go down. They wouldn't know who was on it. The only possible way was that someone who looked at the manifest leaked it sold the info for cold, hard, cash. THAT person needs to lose their job at the very least.
I assume that once they saw a helicopter going down, it started spreading of a helicopter crash and in this case, sooner rather than later someone made the connection of who’s helicopter was it. I’m sure it was someone who knew Kobe took that helicopter before the crash that said “Crap I think that was Kobe” and from there it started spreading.
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As long as you don't fly on helicopters, you're good.
Someone in the US is killed in a car accident every 14 minutes.
I design parts of helicopters as my job
(https://i.imgflip.com/3ndyli.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/3ndyli)[/url]
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You know what I was thinking last night...was what it must've been like for his poor wife to put her daughters to bed, even as she lost a child, and she couldn't even grieve for child's loss with her husband. I felt so bad for her.
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My question is how did they get the story? Someone had to have leaked it. Multiple witnesses saw the helicopter go down. They wouldn't know who was on it. The only possible way was that someone who looked at the manifest leaked it sold the info for cold, hard, cash. THAT person needs to lose their job at the very least.
TMZ has built up enough of a reputation that they'll be the first people a witness calls. In this case, my money would be on an employee of the airport or the charter company.
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Anyone can actively listen to police and emergency chatter through a number of applications. Is it possible that the helicopter's N-number was being broadcast?
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Anyone can actively listen to police and emergency chatter through a number of applications. Is it possible that the helicopter's N-number was being broadcast?
Definitely. You know TMZ is listening to the scanners. Was this the helicopter he usually used, and was TMZ already familiar with it?
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Airport people knew the N number of the aircraft long before the first responders. I doubt first responders had any idea who was aboard until well after the accident, and only after somebody told them. They care about numbers, not names. Also, as much as I despise TMZ, they're not sloppy. Like I said in the 3rd post, they don't bungle these things. They didn't report it until they had something solid. Not just "hey, wasn't 72EX Kobe's helicopter?" My guess is that when TRACON lost radar contact with them they queried the flight plan. That tipped off people at the departure airport and somebody there dropped a dime. Just a wild-ass guess, though.
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Remember too that TMZ - specifically, the correspondents that work for TMZ - is also interested in what a celebrity does and where, unlike ABC, CNN, or Fox, which only cares about a celebrity if and when something that is otherwise newsworthy (for them) happens. So there may have been contact with TMZ, for other reasons, before there was even a crash. TMZ doesn't get beaver shots of Britney Spears getting into Mercedes if they aren't aware of a celebrity's schedule independent of catastrophic events. I don't know if it matters, but Harvey Levin also served in the California Air National Guard; there may be contacts there that play into this.
Speaking of, for all the critique of TMZ - warranted, I'm not going to try to defend them as I would Fox - Harvey Levin is a fascinating figure (I don't necessarily mean in a good way). He also is the legal expert for the People's Court (I met him once in that capacity), and had a (seemingly) short run where he interviewed some big name celebrities; the conceit was that he would focus on one object or item that meant something to the celebrity, and build a profile around it. He's an odd guy.
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I don't really fault TMZ, it's not a pleasant business and I don't really "like" TMZ by any means, but someone's going to report it first, if not them, it will be someone else. Doesn't make it right to hear it from the news before an official notification to the family, but as a Celebrity family, it is probably normal for them to be hit with news about them from the news. Not a fun life style, but our country has a celebrity culture that makes it all what it is to begin with. It's just a reflection of ourselves in a way. How many of us clicked on TMZ's link when the news broke?
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It seems like women who dare mention it on Twitter are getting threatened. Because of course they fucking are. :-\ There are some outlets that are broaching it head-on, some that glancingly acknowledge it (in such a way to downplay it), and some engaged in full-on hagiography. That whole shitshow was a significant contributor to why women don't report (especially when a rich/famous/powerful man is involved). Redemption is a weird thing in all of this...he has done a lot of good since then, but what he did (and what his lawyers did on his behalf) was horrifying. I think we just have to hold both thoughts at the same time...he did some great things, some terrible things, he was a complex human being. Neither side can or should be erased, and both should be fully acknowledged. Every time an outlet glosses over or ignores the sexual assault, it's further erasure of victims, and a further entrenchment of the idea that a rich/powerful man can make anything go away, even in death.
While I agree in spirit, it hasn't even been 24 hours. I don't think it's the right time to bring it up. Heck, I was never a fan of his at all, but it just feels like having that conversation while his body is still warm is a bit unseemly, especially since 8 others lost their lives as well. Maybe I am wrong.
Besides, Twitter is a sewer.
I sort of understand the reflex to say it's not the right time, but that raises the question of when the right time is?
The right time has already come and gone. Prior to the crash, you had 17 years to talk about it. Don't dredge up dirt on a guy who's just been tragically killed.
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The right time has already come and gone. Prior to the crash, you had 17 years to talk about it. Don't dredge up dirt on a guy who's just been tragically killed.
People have a right to like, dislike, or talk about a person's history at any time, regardless of the circumstances of their death.
I had completely forgotten about Kobe's legal troubles, simply because I never paid attention to the guy or watched pro basketball, and I was in my early 20's and focused on other things at the time. But that doesn't mean that I'm not allowed to have an opinion on it just because he tragically died. I do appreciate Samsara's summary in this thread, as it gives some additional perspective on how he may have changed as a person since then, which is commendable. But it will always be a part of his history and deserves just as much consideration in conversation as his playing does.
Someone can revere the guy for his on-court skills just as much as they can continue to dislike him for his off-court issues.
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The right time has already come and gone. Prior to the crash, you had 17 years to talk about it. Don't dredge up dirt on a guy who's just been tragically killed.
I disagree. None of us are at his funeral where this should not be talked about, it's a discussion board and if he's not a squeaky clean as the media is currently showing him to be, it should be discussed. Life is never so perfect and neither was his, it's within reason to discuss his ups and downs in the time of his passing. By most accounts, he recovered and lived a better life. It should be talked about how you can overcome your own bad actions instead of just glossing them over.
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My guess is that when TRACON lost radar contact with them they queried the flight plan. That tipped off people at the departure airport and somebody there dropped a dime. Just a wild-ass guess, though.
And of course my wild-ass guess was completely wrong. According to Levin a friend in LA law enforcement called him up and he confirmed it with Kobe's people. If he's telling the truth here then it suggests they didn't find out as quickly as it appears, and also that Kobe's family should have already been informed.
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Anyone can actively listen to police and emergency chatter through a number of applications. Is it possible that the helicopter's N-number was being broadcast?
Definitely. You know TMZ is listening to the scanners. Was this the helicopter he usually used, and was TMZ already familiar with it?
I heard a personal friend of his on radio this morning talking about that, and here's what she described: Kobe completely lived for his daughters and did everything he could to be as involved in their lives as humanly possible, including coaching and being at all the games. After he either missed or was late to one of their games (I think it was Gigi's, but not sure) because he was stuck in L.A. area traffic, he vowed to never let that happen again, and bought a helicopter so he could make that 1-2 hour commute between L.A. and Orange County in 15 minutes. So, long story short: it was his personal helicopter, if that story is correct.
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Yeah, there's audio that surfaced yesterday from an interview a year or so ago, where he talked about using the helicopter so he could drop off AND pick his kids up from school when he was home. Honestly, I think that's great.
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He'd been using the helicopter for quite some time, including traveling to and from home games, as I understand it. I'm pretty sure he didn't own it, though. It would have been a lease thing from an agency. I saw an interview with one of his pilots that referred go 72EX as his preferred chopper due to it being newer and more comfortable, but not the only one he used.
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Yeah, that's a good clarification. I don't know if he owned it outright or leased it. So I may very well have misspoken when I said "bought." But in any case, it was his, and was one he had been using for awhile.
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He'd been using the helicopter for quite some time, including traveling to and from home games, as I understand it. I'm pretty sure he didn't own it, though. It would have been a lease thing from an agency. I saw an interview with one of his pilots that referred go 72EX as his preferred chopper due to it being newer and more comfortable, but not the only one he used.
I think you're right. I've heard it referred to his "personal" or "private" helicopter, but I guess that doesn't imply ownership.
https://www.businessinsider.com/kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-sikorsky-s-76-2020-1
Bryant's helicopter was a Sikorsky S-76, a type that has had a relatively good safety record since its first flight in 1977. It was owned by Island Express Holding Corp., a helicopter operating company.
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I have no idea how it works with gazillionaires, but what often happens is that people will create a sort of time-share with a private aircraft. It's popular with professional pilots who want something they can use to take the family on vacation, or just go out and goof around, but won't be used often enough to justify the purchase. Five guys will buy the aircraft together and then create a schedule where they divide blocks for much of the year, and leave the rest of it as a first come, first served arrangement. They also share all operating costs. Island Express might be a charter service, or it could be a sort of management company that operates aircraft for a group of owners. Akin to a condominium and a management service.
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It seems like women who dare mention it on Twitter are getting threatened. Because of course they fucking are. :-\ There are some outlets that are broaching it head-on, some that glancingly acknowledge it (in such a way to downplay it), and some engaged in full-on hagiography. That whole shitshow was a significant contributor to why women don't report (especially when a rich/famous/powerful man is involved). Redemption is a weird thing in all of this...he has done a lot of good since then, but what he did (and what his lawyers did on his behalf) was horrifying. I think we just have to hold both thoughts at the same time...he did some great things, some terrible things, he was a complex human being. Neither side can or should be erased, and both should be fully acknowledged. Every time an outlet glosses over or ignores the sexual assault, it's further erasure of victims, and a further entrenchment of the idea that a rich/powerful man can make anything go away, even in death.
While I agree in spirit, it hasn't even been 24 hours. I don't think it's the right time to bring it up. Heck, I was never a fan of his at all, but it just feels like having that conversation while his body is still warm is a bit unseemly, especially since 8 others lost their lives as well. Maybe I am wrong.
Besides, Twitter is a sewer.
I sort of understand the reflex to say it's not the right time, but that raises the question of when the right time is?
The right time has already come and gone. Prior to the crash, you had 17 years to talk about it. Don't dredge up dirt on a guy who's just been tragically killed.
That's a hard no. By your logic, we had years to discuss his basketball prowess, and it shouldn't be discussed now.
What he did was monstrous, both the (admitted) rape and the aftermath in smearing the victim, which was so bad that Colorado changed their fucking laws to make sure it could never happen again.
The erasure of what he did, the hagiography & knob-slobbering, is an affront to the victim, and all victims of sexual assault who have been intimidated and erased by our culture. It's all about the man's (whether Kobe, Louis CK, or Matt Lauer, or Charlie Rose, or...) feelings and legacy, his bullshit redemption arc, never mind the damage left in his wake that so many try to ignore because it's messy. It's that man's story arc that seems to matter. And it's fundamentally misogynist. Dredging up dirt? Give me a fucking break...god forbid anyone mention reality on Kobe's path to canonization.
Kobe gets redemption credit for the gay slur thing, he put in the work, realized what he did was horrible, made amends, and became a part of correcting that aspect of the NBA culture. But there was never even a nod in the direction of sexual assault. All of that philanthropy? That's all well and good, but it has fuck-all to do with sexual assault or destroying a victim's life. A has nothing to do with B.
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I have no idea how it works with gazillionaires, but what often happens is that people will create a sort of time-share with a private aircraft. It's popular with professional pilots who want something they can use to take the family on vacation, or just go out and goof around, but won't be used often enough to justify the purchase. Five guys will buy the aircraft together and then create a schedule where they divide blocks for much of the year, and leave the rest of it as a first come, first served arrangement. They also share all operating costs. Island Express might be a charter service, or it could be a sort of management company that operates aircraft for a group of owners. Akin to a condominium and a management service.
GE Capital had an entire division dedicated to this type of arrangement (and with trains as well). "Timeshare" is an apt description.
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I would just like to state I am very thankful Millah is articulating what I have been thinking about this much better than I would have. I think an interesting discussion for another thread (not here) is the subject of redemption and when and if it can be earned. But I don’t post enough here to really participate anymore...back to the sidelines for me.
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It seems like women who dare mention it on Twitter are getting threatened. Because of course they fucking are. :-\ There are some outlets that are broaching it head-on, some that glancingly acknowledge it (in such a way to downplay it), and some engaged in full-on hagiography. That whole shitshow was a significant contributor to why women don't report (especially when a rich/famous/powerful man is involved). Redemption is a weird thing in all of this...he has done a lot of good since then, but what he did (and what his lawyers did on his behalf) was horrifying. I think we just have to hold both thoughts at the same time...he did some great things, some terrible things, he was a complex human being. Neither side can or should be erased, and both should be fully acknowledged. Every time an outlet glosses over or ignores the sexual assault, it's further erasure of victims, and a further entrenchment of the idea that a rich/powerful man can make anything go away, even in death.
While I agree in spirit, it hasn't even been 24 hours. I don't think it's the right time to bring it up. Heck, I was never a fan of his at all, but it just feels like having that conversation while his body is still warm is a bit unseemly, especially since 8 others lost their lives as well. Maybe I am wrong.
Besides, Twitter is a sewer.
I sort of understand the reflex to say it's not the right time, but that raises the question of when the right time is?
The right time has already come and gone. Prior to the crash, you had 17 years to talk about it. Don't dredge up dirt on a guy who's just been tragically killed.
That's a hard no. By your logic, we had years to discuss his basketball prowess, and it shouldn't be discussed now.
What he did was monstrous, both the (admitted) rape and the aftermath in smearing the victim, which was so bad that Colorado changed their fucking laws to make sure it could never happen again.
The erasure of what he did, the hagiography & knob-slobbering, is an affront to the victim, and all victims of sexual assault who have been intimidated and erased by our culture. It's all about the man's (whether Kobe, Louis CK, or Matt Lauer, or Charlie Rose, or...) feelings and legacy, his bullshit redemption arc, never mind the damage left in his wake that so many try to ignore because it's messy. It's that man's story arc that seems to matter. And it's fundamentally misogynist. Dredging up dirt? Give me a fucking break...god forbid anyone mention reality on Kobe's path to canonization.
Kobe gets redemption credit for the gay slur thing, he put in the work, realized what he did was horrible, made amends, and became a part of correcting that aspect of the NBA culture. But there was never even a nod in the direction of sexual assault. All of that philanthropy? That's all well and good, but it has fuck-all to do with sexual assault or destroying a victim's life. A has nothing to do with B.
well said.
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What he did was monstrous, both the (admitted) rape and the aftermath in smearing the victim, which was so bad that Colorado changed their fucking laws to make sure it could never happen again.
The erasure of what he did, the hagiography & knob-slobbering, is an affront to the victim, and all victims of sexual assault who have been intimidated and erased by our culture. It's all about the man's (whether Kobe, Louis CK, or Matt Lauer, or Charlie Rose, or...) feelings and legacy, his bullshit redemption arc, never mind the damage left in his wake that so many try to ignore because it's messy. It's that man's story arc that seems to matter. And it's fundamentally misogynist.
Thank you, millahh. I hope you know that reading this post gives me a sliver of hope. Hope for those who all too often have no voice. EVER.
Having read KB's statements on the matter, I doubt he'd want this part of his story 'erased'. I'd like to believe that he would even encourage the discussion. Sometimes having daughters will crystalize issues for fathers and lead to new reflections and a desire to do and be better. I'd like to think Kobe was one of those fathers.
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I'm pretty sure this thread was intended to discuss the circumstances surrounding the tragic accident and to pay our respects to the dead. We're not here to trample a man's grave by making off topic points about a completely different matter that happened a long time ago. Start your own thread and discuss it there.
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I'm pretty sure this thread was intended to discuss the circumstances surrounding the tragic accident and to pay our respects to the dead. We're not here to trample a man's grave by making off topic points about a completely different matter that happened a long time ago. Start your own thread and discuss it there.
why does it matter it "happened a long time ago"? its part of his legacy and should not be ignored.
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The kid component of this tragedy is really getting me. His daughter and the other daughter.....I can’t imagine as a parent that final 30/45 seconds when the realization hit that they were going to crash....what’d you’d do for your child as they’d clearly be in a panic and fear. I can’t seem to stop thinking about that. It’s brutal and heartbreaking
it is, but based on the the description I saw of it by an eye witness (older guy who seemed really smart and knew his stuff), it sounds like the pilot did not know the hill was there and flew into it, so it is likely that death was nearly instantaneous for everyone, which is all you can hope for, that way no one suffered.
Yeah Kev. This is most likely the case it would seem from hearing the final communications with the pilot. He had no idea the hill was there. As investigators indicated in the following article, even if the aircraft had the TAWS system, the crash still may not have been averted. It seems that the decision to fly in such poor conditions is the compelling factor. This tragedy could've been easily avoided by choosing not to take the risk.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/pilot-bryant-helicopter-tried-avoid-060826690.html
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The kid component of this tragedy is really getting me. His daughter and the other daughter.....I can’t imagine as a parent that final 30/45 seconds when the realization hit that they were going to crash....what’d you’d do for your child as they’d clearly be in a panic and fear. I can’t seem to stop thinking about that. It’s brutal and heartbreaking
it is, but based on the the description I saw of it by an eye witness (older guy who seemed really smart and knew his stuff), it sounds like the pilot did not know the hill was there and flew into it, so it is likely that death was nearly instantaneous for everyone, which is all you can hope for, that way no one suffered.
Yeah Kev. This is most likely the case it would seem from hearing the final communications with the pilot. He had no idea the hill was there. As investigators indicated in the following article, even if the aircraft had the TAWS system, the crash still may not have been averted. It seems that the decision to fly in such poor conditions is the compelling factor. This tragedy could've been easily avoided by choosing not to take the risk.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/pilot-bryant-helicopter-tried-avoid-060826690.html
This could be the 'saving grace' of the accident. To think that they knew they were about to crash and most likely die is a horrific thought....but if they hit the hillside 'out of nowhere' then at least they were spared those last moments of fear.
That article and others like it along with witness accounts does more or less suggest that this was pilot error....brought on by the heavy fog where he just got disorientated. You can see by the flight path that he did well for a while following the road as suggested by the flight controllers...but then just got mixed up.
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What I heard on the TV news last night that it was a quick descent, so I'm not sure they didn't know they were in serious danger. Also, they noted that Kobe went to church early before any mass before the flight and the pastor there was one of the last people to really talk to him (he was being interviews in the news piece). If you are a spiritual person, that might give you some comfort in all of this.
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What I heard on the TV news last night that it was a quick descent, so I'm not sure they didn't know they were in serious danger. Also, they noted that Kobe went to church early before any mass before the flight and the pastor there was one of the last people to really talk to him (he was being interviews in the news piece). If you are a spiritual person, that might give you some comfort in all of this.
There were ascents and descents. He was aware he was over hilly terrain, but he also had a low ceiling. He was very likely trying to find a sweet spot that gave him ground clearance and visibility.
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[Serious] If visibility is that terrible and you know you are above hilly terrain, why not just go straight up?
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[Serious] If visibility is that terrible and you know you are above hilly terrain, why not just go straight up?
Good question. I can guess a couple of answers. One is that there's no guarantee you ever hit good visibility. In fact, I'd bet against it. Second, there are air space considerations. He was very likely limited to a pretty low altitude. He could have declared an emergency and ascended straight up, but he'd have some hard questions to answer when he got back on the ground. Third, it relies on being able to fly the aircraft completely blind to a safe location. He should have been able to do it, but there's certainly an inherent risk. He might have just misjudged the comparative risks. Also, I suspect those risks are much higher flying a rotary wing aircraft.
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Good points Barto. I may be misreading the 2nd sentence of the article below. It seems to suggest that the pilot lost control of the aircraft. While listening to the audio communications between ATC and the pilot, there was no indication of this. There seems to be some conflicting information. I was originally led to believe from another source that the pilot deliberately made the steep left turn decent. At this point, I'm not sure what happened.
"Pilot Ara Zobayan had been climbing out of the clouds when the aircraft banked left and began a sudden and terrifying 1,200-foot (366-meter) descent that lasted nearly a minute."
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Jon Rosen, The Los Angeles Kings Insider, made a post on their site that has some pictures of the setting in LA Live and Staples Center as the LA Kings will play against the Tampa Bay Lightning in, what I presume, is the first game of any kind in the Staples Center after last Sunday. Bob Miller, former long-time LA Kings Broadcaster, will host a pre-game ceremony in tribute to Kobe which will show up on NBCSN after the airing of whatever game is going on right now. Naturally, it's a a very somber atmosphere.
https://lakingsinsider.com/2020/01/29/live-blog-honoring-kobe-gianna-john-keri-alyssa-sarah-payton-christina-and-ara/
(https://lakingsinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/IMG_6523.jpg)
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I'm pretty sure this thread was intended to discuss the circumstances surrounding the tragic accident and to pay our respects to the dead. We're not here to trample a man's grave by making off topic points about a completely different matter that happened a long time ago. Start your own thread and discuss it there.
why does it matter it "happened a long time ago"? its part of his legacy and should not be ignored.
Fine. Don't ignore it in another thread.
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I'm pretty sure this thread was intended to discuss the circumstances surrounding the tragic accident and to pay our respects to the dead. We're not here to trample a man's grave by making off topic points about a completely different matter that happened a long time ago. Start your own thread and discuss it there.
why does it matter it "happened a long time ago"? its part of his legacy and should not be ignored.
Fine. Don't ignore it in another thread.
Counterpoint: No.
1). There was no stated purpose to the thread, and no exclusion of topics. It was news, understanding what was going on, and discussion of public reaction (which certainly includes the highly credible rape allegations and the aftermath)
2). Even if there was a stated purpose, so what? No one person (who isn't bosk1) gets to prohibit a discussion
3). You did not start the thread, and even if you did, are not a mod. Playing thread police is a little weird
Does KB really need you defending his honor, to be his white knight?
My wife put it quite well... "I am not a believer in 'Don’t Speak Ill of the Dead'. If you don’t want bad things written about you in your obituary, then don’t do bad things while you’re alive."
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The problem with that is that everyone is the monster in someone else’s story. No one is immune. Someone on this planet thinks you’re an unforgivable bastard, and it’s not really nice to the people who love you if they show up to protest your funeral.
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The problem with that is that everyone is the monster in someone else’s story. No one is immune. Someone on this planet thinks you’re an unforgivable bastard, and it’s not really nice to the people who love you if they show up to protest your funeral.
Agreed, but no one here is protesting at the funeral. Its just a discussion forum on a thread about his death, I don't think there's any reason to limit the discussion to just praise if there are things that should be noted and discussed. Certainly there's no rule about this specific thread either so no idea why dublagent is bossing the discussion other than his own dislike of hearing it himself. It's not talked about much on the news so I think it's good that there is a place for this discussion honestly. I think it's important.
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The problem with that is that everyone is the monster in someone else’s story. No one is immune.
Except Fred Rogers.
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I started a thread for this to take it out of the Kobe discussion.
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I started a thread for this to take it out of the Kobe discussion.
But to me, that's exactly the problem...it's sanitizing away the uncomfortable truth for those who don't want to see it, moving it someplace comfortable.
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I started a thread for this to take it out of the Kobe discussion.
But to me, that's exactly the problem...it's sanitizing away the uncomfortable truth for those who don't want to see it, moving it someplace comfortable.
I don't think I sanitized anything in what I wrote. :) :)
But seriously, I understand your point.
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This should get the lawsuits rolling.....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7951253/Charter-company-owned-Kobe-Bryants-helicopter-suspends-flights-tragic-crash.html
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This should get the lawsuits rolling.....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7951253/Charter-company-owned-Kobe-Bryants-helicopter-suspends-flights-tragic-crash.html
so now the question is, who made the call to actually use the helicopter?
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Only the charter company can authorize a pilot to fly their aircraft. That's why the fleet has been grounded, which is what should've happened last Sunday morning. :facepalm:
You're right, someone at that company is gonna be in deep shit, if not the entire company.
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I'm pretty sure this thread was intended to discuss the circumstances surrounding the tragic accident and to pay our respects to the dead. We're not here to trample a man's grave by making off topic points about a completely different matter that happened a long time ago. Start your own thread and discuss it there.
why does it matter it "happened a long time ago"? its part of his legacy and should not be ignored.
Fine. Don't ignore it in another thread.
Counterpoint: No.
1). There was no stated purpose to the thread, and no exclusion of topics. It was news, understanding what was going on, and discussion of public reaction (which certainly includes the highly credible rape allegations and the aftermath)
2). Even if there was a stated purpose, so what? No one person (who isn't bosk1) gets to prohibit a discussion
3). You did not start the thread, and even if you did, are not a mod. Playing thread police is a little weird
Does KB really need you defending his honor, to be his white knight?
My wife put it quite well... "I am not a believer in 'Don’t Speak Ill of the Dead'. If you don’t want bad things written about you in your obituary, then don’t do bad things while you’re alive."
I thought about responding to this, but after careful consideration, this isn’t the proper thread to argue the character of the recently deceased. I would be glad to debate this issue with you in the other thread.
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This should get the lawsuits rolling.....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7951253/Charter-company-owned-Kobe-Bryants-helicopter-suspends-flights-tragic-crash.html
so now the question is, who made the call to actually use the helicopter?
Exactly why the Pilot should've known the weather beforehand and before taking flight. Also, why didn't Kobe see the weather also and determine it's not good to fly? I mean its never good to fly in Fog, just for that reason alone and what if Birds happen to fly in your path. Like the NY pilot that landed on the river, due to him hitting a goose.
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This should get the lawsuits rolling.....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7951253/Charter-company-owned-Kobe-Bryants-helicopter-suspends-flights-tragic-crash.html
so now the question is, who made the call to actually use the helicopter?
Exactly why the Pilot should've known the weather beforehand and before taking flight. Also, why didn't Kobe see the weather also and determine it's not good to fly? I mean its never good to fly in Fog, just for that reason alone and what if Birds happen to fly in your path. Like the NY pilot that landed on the river, due to him hitting a goose.
I don't know why I know this, but typically larger birds (ducks and geese), the ones that could take down an aircraft, also don't fly in fog. They can go long periods of time without food, and when it's super foggy out, they don't even bother getting airborne to find food. It's safer to just stay put than to try and navigate an unexpected tree line.
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This should get the lawsuits rolling.....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7951253/Charter-company-owned-Kobe-Bryants-helicopter-suspends-flights-tragic-crash.html
so now the question is, who made the call to actually use the helicopter?
Exactly why the Pilot should've known the weather beforehand and before taking flight. Also, why didn't Kobe see the weather also and determine it's not good to fly? I mean its never good to fly in Fog, just for that reason alone and what if Birds happen to fly in your path. Like the NY pilot that landed on the river, due to him hitting a goose.
I don't know why I know this, but typically larger birds (ducks and geese), the ones that could take down an aircraft, also don't fly in fog. They can go long periods of time without food, and when it's super foggy out, they don't even bother getting airborne to find food. It's safer to just stay put than to try and navigate an unexpected tree line.
Honestly, why then did they fly if the birds wouldn't even fly?
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Who knows what happened, but this sort of comes up in a lot of instances like this. Sometimes bad things happen, sometimes things don't go according to the plan. How do we know that the pilot and Kobe (and, presumably, the rest of the parents, that in my view certainly could have said "Not getting on that circus ride, bro!") didn't mutually decide they're going to do this? At what point does it just get labelled tragedy, we file the data for next time and move on? Why does every tragic event have to have some sort of culpable bad guy?
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Well, we know one thing for sure. Visibility was bad. That is reason enough not to fly. Outside of that is just the normal risks and dangers of flying. Whoever decided to fly that day was just adding risk and danger. You're right Stad, they all knew the inherent risks or should have anyway.
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Seems to me that SNA (I believe their departure airport) is a good ways from Topanga where they got socked in. While they still needed to know the weather for their entire flight, it might have changed en route, or been reported as less severe. Moreover, the intention might well have been to skirt around the fog until ATC requirements (the long hold before transitioning BUR) changed things up. I'm sticking with my original premise that taking off and attempting the flight wasn't unreasonable. Flying into a fog bank over hilly terrain was negligent under the circumstances.
I'm also not ruling out inflight medical emergency. The loss of radio contact along with the strange dive at the end seems a little out of place from the working theory.
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I always say, better safe than sorry, but that is a good point Barto about loss of radio contact. I didn't consider that scenario. Very much a possibility.
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This may not be a good comparison, but think of the times you have driven somewhere in a torrential downpour or a bad snow storm or when there were tornado warnings. It's easy to think, "I will be extra careful and all will be okay," and 999 times out of 1,000, it will be okay, but all it takes is that 1 time.
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I remember explaining to a younger friend of mine one time about why he was a dad. He was touting the efficacy of pulling out as being something like 99.x% and in a matter of like ten seconds I asked him how often he and the baby mama were fuckin and over what length of time and immediately mentally calculated that they'd fucked their way past the threshold where that 99.x% efficacy could be expected to hold up.
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Bear in mind, too, that the human brain is provably bad at assessing and categorizing risk. We cavalierly do things all the time that are far more risky than things we plan and meticulously execute as if they are "dangerous".
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This should get the lawsuits rolling.....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7951253/Charter-company-owned-Kobe-Bryants-helicopter-suspends-flights-tragic-crash.html
Well, you called it.
Kobe Bryant's widow sued the owner of the helicopter that crashed in fog and killed the former Los Angeles Lakers star and their 13-year-old daughter last month as she publicly mourned their deaths Monday in an emotional public ceremony.
The wrongful death lawsuit filed by Vanessa Bryant in Los Angeles Superior Court on Monday said the pilot was careless and negligent by flying in cloudy conditions Jan. 26 and should have aborted the flight that killed all nine people aboard.
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The Celebration of Life they held yesterday at Staples center was pretty heartwarming. Vanessa, Jordan, and Shaq all spoke from the heart and there were a lot of tears.
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Vanessa and others won a multimillion lawsuit yesterday.
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Vanessa and others won a multimillion lawsuit yesterday.
I think that was just for asshole cop selling cellphone pictures of the mangled corpses. Glad she won, and that cop was almost certainly shitcanned within days of the incident (that's a huge no-no and an area where cops get very little cover). I'm guessing the charter company et al settled their cases a long time ago.
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Damn! I heard about the photos but how did a cop get a hold of them? I thought only NTSB investigators could take photos. ???
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Could the cops have responded first, or would NTSB been on the scene before them?
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I'm sure that cops and other first responders would have been first on the scene.
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My, little, understanding was the cop was on the scene and took the pics. Glad they won the lawsuit, that is so screwed up.
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I wish cops had to have insurance that'd pay these settlements out. Sucks the taxpayer is on the hook for $16M because of this asshole's actions.
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Damn! I heard about the photos but how did a cop get a hold of them? I thought only NTSB investigators could take photos. ???
In theory that's correct, and the NTSB and FAA have very strict procedures in place to protect privacy. Cops do too, but they're also not supposed to be snapping pictures of dead celebrities. This guy was just an asshole, and probably an unemployed one now, at that.
Johnny will almost certainly be first on the scene, second to civvies if it happens in a populated area. Even in a place like Los Angeles the NTSB is going to be a couple of hours out. Members of a go-team will get texts within minutes, but they still have to meet up, prepare, make a game plan, etc.
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Sucks the taxpayer is on the hook for $16M because of this asshole's actions.
Which is less than 5 cents per capita
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Damn! I heard about the photos but how did a cop get a hold of them? I thought only NTSB investigators could take photos. ???
In theory that's correct, and the NTSB and FAA have very strict procedures in place to protect privacy. Cops do too, but they're also not supposed to be snapping pictures of dead celebrities. This guy was just an asshole, and probably an unemployed one now, at that.
Johnny will almost certainly be first on the scene, second to civvies if it happens in a populated area. Even in a place like Los Angeles the NTSB is going to be a couple of hours out. Members of a go-team will get texts within minutes, but they still have to meet up, prepare, make a game plan, etc.
I'd think something like that would be a prosecutable offense. Just losing his job seems rather lenient.