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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: Stadler on January 23, 2020, 05:39:28 PM
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Anyone see this:
https://www.tmz.com/2020/01/22/aerosmith-drummer-joey-kramer-denied-judge-grammy-performance-lawsuit/
Here's the backstory:
https://eddietrunk.com/drummer-joey-kramer-files-a-lawsuit-against-aerosmith-for-failure-to-re-join-the-band/
(There are two more articles on Trunk's site as well).
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I've seen this discussion in the Classic Rock Thread. You think for being in a band for about 50 years, everyone would all put egos aside and try to gauge together where they stand as performers without needing to get lawsuits and lawyers and securities involved.
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Hey sorry; didn't mean to usurp the conversation. We can take it over there.
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We should keep it here. I was going to post about this the other day when I realized there was no Aerosmith thread. This can become that.
My two initial thoughts were that the "ankle injury" is likely a cover, and everything in Aerosmith runs through Tyler.
I actually read Joe Perry's autobiography, which blows BTW, but one thing he did say was that Tyler calls the shots. He is their paycheck.
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I read about this the other day.
If Kramer can't play well anymore, I get trying to replace him. The intro to Walk This Way is pretty iconic, and you can't have a drummer messing that up. However, there are ways to do it, and it seems like this is not it.
That said, Steven Tyler sounds like an a-hole by just about everything I've ever read or heard about him, so this shouldn't be a surprise.
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Imagine Lars having to audition again for Metallica :lol
Man, that sucks. It's like the Bill Ward situation, where the (supposed) unrealiability of the drummer puts the band in an awkward spot. Weren't there any better ways to handle this than letting the guy fly to LA and then having security bounce him? I can't ever imagine Iron Maiden doing this to Nicko McBrain...
Will this be the new standard for old groups? holograms and replacing one by one the members who are unfit as long as the icon of the band is still there?
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Kramer claims the band asked him to perform a series of solo rehearsals against a “click track” — not even live with the other four members — as his audition … and they would listen to the recordings to decide whether he was viable for return.
The drummer claims the stress of the ordeal had “significant repercussions” to his health
::)
There'll be three sides to this story but man is that a whine. If they weren't concerned about his ability to cut it then they wouldn't have asked him to do that... that he found the idea of doing so so stressful it had repercussions to his health implies they were absolutely right to be concerned.
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Why would you sue to re-join a band that clearly doesn't want you anymore? I may not know much, but at least I know when I'm not wanted.
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Why would you sue to re-join a band that clearly doesn't want you anymore? I may not know much, but at least I know when I'm not wanted.
If you are not in the band, you don't get a share of the profits. That's why, probably.
Imagine Lars having to audition again for Metallica :lol
Imagine Lars playing to a click track ;)
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I was hoping Trouble in paradise is a new single or an upcoming album. Oh well...
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Why would you sue to re-join a band that clearly doesn't want you anymore? I may not know much, but at least I know when I'm not wanted.
If you are not in the band, you don't get a share of the profits. That's why, probably.
Imagine Lars having to audition again for Metallica :lol
Imagine Lars playing to a click track ;)
even if he were forced to, he still wouldn't practice and nothing would be changed. Having said that, there is an irony attached to all of this (concerning Aerosmith): I would guess almost all of their albums (at least up until the late 1980s) were recorded without a click. I don't know that for a fact though since I didn't listen to any Aerosmith albums in more than 20 years (22 probably)
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I was hoping Trouble in paradise is a new single or an upcoming album. Oh well...
would be a fitting title though IMHO (although there is a Randy Newman album of the same name, which I like quite a bit btw)
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Considering the guy has dedicated 50 years of his life to the band, it is a ridiculous, childish attitude. Even if he has problems playing... you don't do that to somebody who spent 50 years by your side.
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Considering the guy has dedicated 50 years of his life to the band, it is a ridiculous, childish attitude. Even if he has problems playing... you don't do that to somebody who spent 50 years by your side.
I'd do the same though (considering that they seemingly want musical consistency over interpersonal relationships, but then the next irony that reveals itself is that they chose to do that now,as opposed to in the 1980s and sticking with that approach. (playing to a click is mandatory these days it seems and has been for quite a bit, at least in my observation) "A Feast Of Ironies" would have made for a cool thread title too, seeing as that's what it is IMHO) Although you're right, it's not particularly "gentlemanly" as it were
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A lot of thoughts here.
One, Bill Ward's unreliability is not "supposed". He ended up forcing the band to cancel at least one tour, possibly two, and several shows in between. He couldn't cut it. I saw the "The End" tour, and while Tommy Clufetos wasn't my first choice, the show would have suffered if the drummer couldn't carry that every night at that level. It was NECESSARY for that show.
Two, I just saw Maiden not four months ago, and Nicko was amazing, but let's not kid anyone here: Nicko is 67, and Maiden isn't a "Charlie Watts" kind of gig. There's a shelf-life on Maiden. I don't know what it is, but there's a shelf life on Maiden. Some of the best drummers in rock have shown or are starting to show their age, and there's no crime in that (Collins, Peart, Alan White, Ian Paice has missed shows recently, Peter Criss, Bill Ward, Bill Bruford).
Three, there's always been a history with Kramer. He's had his own drug problems, and he's battled other issues as well. Tyler - originally the band's drummer - has frequently battled with Kramer (as you might guess, there's been a disagreement since 1975 as to who came up with the signature intro pattern to "Walk This Way", a song Kramer does not have a writing credit on). I do not believe this is the first time he's been told "clean up your act". Is it fair? Of course not. But I'm not sure who decided it was supposed to BE fair.
Four, the money thing... I don't know. I have read that the replacement - Kramer's drum tech, John Douglas - is being paid out of the money that would have gone to Kramer had he performed. I'm surprised at that, frankly, though I would guess that that is just a cash flow mechanism, a way of distributing funds. Aerosmith is almost assuredly a "corporation", and unless Kramer doesn't have a share in that corporation - entirely possible, though not the most likely option - I can't imagine this is about money on it's face.
They also have a residency going on here in Springfield, MA at the MGM Casino. My brother-in-law went to see them in... I think it was August, certainly it was this fall, and I'll ask him if Kramer was behind the drums. I know he did say they sounded really good.
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Since we have a thread now, I'll quote what I stated about it form there and expand a bit more
When I saw Aerosmith in September during the Vegas residency, before the show I was chatting with a security guard. My ticket was for on the stage general admission (which was an AMAZING experience, one of my favorite concerts ever I think) so I wanted to ask this guy about what to expect and where maybe the best position to stand in case the band members come over (which they did throughout the night). This guy then just started going on about Aerosmith and other things but he did tell me that it was always up in the air if Joey would show up for the show every night. They had a guy on standby to fill in at all times because Joey was unreliable (he didn't give reasons why). Also said the band members all hate each other, none of them get along and they all came in/out of the venue seperately and stayed at different hotels so they never interacted besides being on stage for 90 minutes.
He then also told me that strippers would be arriving in 5 minutes... which he was spot on about so I kind of believe him.
I think, he just may not be reliable and if he can't consistently show up and perform, then he can't be in the band. It sucks it has to be a lawsuit and not "gentleman" like as someone said. But you can't be both in the band and not perform. I'm sure there's way more to it than just that such as money and personal relationships soured, but if there's any truth to what the security guard in Vegas told me (which is very believable) then I feel it's likely necessary for him to be out of the band sadly. It would be cool if they didn't make him audition per say but gave him a path to recovery and being let back in, but he also could be just so far off from what they minimally want from a drummer at this point.
and if this is the official DTF aerosmith thread then I shall add my concert experience time stamped for Love in an Elevator, one of the funnest times I had for a single song all year last year Aerosmith - Las Vegas Residency 9/23/2019 (https://youtu.be/LB_zpn1zoCA?t=785)
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Joey's had lots of health issues in the past as well. Sucks that they're freezing him out, but it seems like the band gave him a way back in (audition) and he's chosen to throw a fit, rather than buck up and just do it.
I saw Aerosmith twice, on the 9 Lives and Just Push Play tours in 99 and the early 00's, when they played the arena in my college town. Both shows were killer, and I recall one featuring more of the 80's hits and the second featuring more of the 70's era songs.
I also have a lot of respect for Steven Tyler since he was a judge on American Idol during the year that James Durbin was on. James was singing metal songs each week...had Simon Cowell been a judge that year, he'd have easily called James indulgent and criticized him for not singing contemporary music. Steven Tyler was the opposite, encouraging him to be a rock singer, sing the songs he wants to, and even commending him and backing James up when he told the record company exec to piss off for telling him to not sing Sammy Hagar one week. :metal
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I have no direct knowledge of this, but it's possible that this has something to do with the casino aspect of things. I understand that the immediate gigs are the Grammy's and the Musicares gigs, but the casino residencies are not like "normal concerts", in that they are part of a bigger endeavor. In other words, it's not like a regular tour stop where they set up, play, take a portion of the gate and all the merch, and the promoter takes his cut. Casino shows are about the ancillary. Get people in the door to gamble, eat, drink, shop, etc. If Kramer doesn't show, or the band doesn't perform up to standards, there's a different level of damages than just "refund the tickets, and we'll add a second date to the next leg of the tour". Go on Wikipedia and look at the "tour dates" for just about any major act, and there'll be a date here - Poughkeepsie - or a date there - des Moines - that are cancelled. Sucks if you're in mid-state New York, or Iowa, but the machine rolls on. Here, the casino could lose a portion of their entire nights revenue.
I don't know if that's a factor or not, but it could be.
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I don't know if it is or not either but they had to cancel shows after I saw them because Tyler got sick. If the casino thing plays a role, I'm sure they were already not happy about having to cancel shows from legit illness meanwhile having a questionable drummer every night on top of that. I'm sure lots of little things like that DO add up at some point.
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My assumption when I read about this was simply that they get along better with the drum tech than they do Kramer. Seems to me like one of those situations where the band chemistry is just better when one strong personality leaves.
Also, the idea that he might not be able to perform at a strong enough level is fucking ridiculous. Seen Joe Perry play lately? From what I've heard Lars and Kirk would be embarrassed to play that sloppily. By all accounts he's a fucking train wreck.
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My assumption when I read about this was simply that they get along better with the drum tech than they do Kramer. Seems to me like one of those situations where the band chemistry is just better when one strong personality leaves.
Also, the idea that he might not be able to perform at a strong enough level is fucking ridiculous. Seen Joe Perry play lately? From what I've heard Lars and Kirk would be embarrassed to play that sloppily. By all accounts he's a fucking train wreck.
That's interesting about Perry; I hadn't heard that (I haven't heard ANYTHING, other than the Hollywood Vampires is sort of a joke). I've always sort of felt that Brad has been carrying the water for a while.
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The difference is Perry shows up. I feel this is similar to Darcy not coming back to the Smashing Pumpkins, Billy knows she's not reliable to go on tour and could be a no show any night. It SUCKS, but if the person for whatever reasons (it seems to point to drugs/health) can't be relied upon, there aren't many options.
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The difference is Perry shows up. I feel this is similar to Darcy not coming back to the Smashing Pumpkins, Billy knows she's not reliable to go on tour and could be a no show any night. It SUCKS, but if the person for whatever reasons (it seems to point to drugs/health) can't be relied upon, there aren't many options.
Then why the audition? That won't demonstrate his reliability unless he's so far gone he doesn't even show up for that. Moreover, if his health falters they already have a prefect replacement in the crew anyway.
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The difference is Perry shows up. I feel this is similar to Darcy not coming back to the Smashing Pumpkins, Billy knows she's not reliable to go on tour and could be a no show any night. It SUCKS, but if the person for whatever reasons (it seems to point to drugs/health) can't be relied upon, there aren't many options.
Then why the audition? That won't demonstrate his reliability unless he's so far gone he doesn't even show up for that. Moreover, if his health falters they already have a prefect replacement in the crew anyway.
Yea, he didn't show up as far as I can tell.
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I'm just gonna speak my mind of something I of course know not much about other than what I read.
I can only relate as a fellow musician and drummer, being apart of a band for 50 years dedicating your ENTIRE life to your instrument and everything they shared together over the years it's a fucking disgrace it's turning out like this and it's corporate bs what's going on with auditions and security and so on. It's rock n roll for god's sake and it's Aerosmith not an audition to the Royal Philharmonics. I don't believe for a second that Joey can't play the songs in acceptable form given his injuries and so on. I mean come on, he knows those songs backwards after all these years. From Joey's perspective, should he really just accept that and move on. It's his life work too as much as Tyler's and honestly what else can he do than to sue. He's ONE easily replaceable person against the company Aerosmith and the millions of fans that's probably siding with the band no matter what. Yes it's all business these days but man I really think the band should've supported him more and if he actually needed help getting in shape, help him for fuck sake!
I mean I cannot help thinking about Lars for some reason. :lol Even Metallicas music is more challenging than Aerosmith.
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Eh, I wouldn't go overboard on the "Aerosmith is simple" line; sure it might be easy to play the notes (I can even play Walk This Way and there's a cassette tape somewhere to prove it) but Aerosmith is about groove and feeling and motion. I can imagine that if one component is off their game the whole house of cards comes crashing down.
Also, I respectfully disagree that "it's as much his as Tyler's". That there are five members in a band doesn't make them interchangeable. There's Aerosmith as long as there is Steven Tyler, period. No one else (they've survived without Tom, Brad, and Joe for varying lengths of time; they WILL survive without Joey Kramer).
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The difference is Perry shows up. I feel this is similar to Darcy not coming back to the Smashing Pumpkins, Billy knows she's not reliable to go on tour and could be a no show any night. It SUCKS, but if the person for whatever reasons (it seems to point to drugs/health) can't be relied upon, there aren't many options.
Then why the audition? That won't demonstrate his reliability unless he's so far gone he doesn't even show up for that. Moreover, if his health falters they already have a prefect replacement in the crew anyway.
Yea, he didn't show up as far as I can tell.
I don't think that changes my point at all. He didn't show up because he considered it bullshit, insofar as I can tell. Not because he was face down in the gutter alongside Joe Perry. I just think the audition thing was a sham.
I read that apparently he showed up to the rehearsal space to get ready for their upcoming award thingy and they had security guards in place to deny him entry. This is more about bad blood than anything else. Somebody in the band just doesn't want him around anymore.
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I thought I read that he did the audition but they said no after?
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Eh, I wouldn't go overboard on the "Aerosmith is simple" line; sure it might be easy to play the notes (I can even play Walk This Way and there's a cassette tape somewhere to prove it) but Aerosmith is about groove and feeling and motion. I can imagine that if one component is off their game the whole house of cards comes crashing down.
Just to be clear I never said their music was simple, however I find it ridiculous to have an audition especially with a member that's been in the band for so long because it's a catalugue he knows well enough.
Also, I respectfully disagree that "it's as much his as Tyler's". That there are five members in a band doesn't make them interchangeable. There's Aerosmith as long as there is Steven Tyler, period. No one else (they've survived without Tom, Brad, and Joe for varying lengths of time; they WILL survive without Joey Kramer).
I speak about Joey as a human being and a member of the band, that his legacy is the drumparts he created and for dedicating his life towards the band and their music and that to me deserve as much respect as Tyler. Sadly the REALITY is as you say, Tyler calls the shot because he's the more famous guy in the band but that dosen't change my opinion. Where's the loyalty as a band towards Joey?
"To be removed from my rightful place on stage to celebrate our success — a success that acknowledges my own life’s work, is just plain wrong," /Joey Kramer
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I was hoping Trouble in paradise is a new single or an upcoming album. Oh well...
Haha yea that was my first thought too.
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Kramer attends benefit gala, but doesn't perform with them
https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/joey-kramer-joins-aerosmith-bandmates-at-musicares-benefit-gala-but-doesnt-perform-with-them-video-photos/
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That's a tremendous insult at him, regardless if he can play well or not.
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Don't care about Aerosmith and can only casually care about this story, as I know very little about the band, and obviously nothing about their legal and corporate structures. But legal crap like this is just... c'mon man, this isn't life or death we are talking about here.
He wants the court to order him back in the band to avoid “irreparable harm” to him if Aerosmith is allowed to squeeze him out.
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Don't care about Aerosmith and can only casually care about this story, as I know very little about the band, and obviously nothing about their legal and corporate structures. But legal crap like this is just... c'mon man, this isn't life or death we are talking about here.
He wants the court to order him back in the band to avoid “irreparable harm” to him if Aerosmith is allowed to squeeze him out.
Well....if you've only had one job your entire life, and that job doesn't offer a retirement plan (beyond what you do with what they've already given you) and then they try to take away that job (i.e. your steady income) it can start to feel like "life and death" to that person pretty quickly.
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I feel like "beyond what you do with what they've already given you" constitutes enough money to support multiple people for several life times.
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I feel like "beyond what you do with what they've already given you" constitutes enough money to support multiple people for several life times.
And you're not wrong. I just always have a habit of trying to look at things from the other person's (In this case, Joey's) situation instead of my personal POV.
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Don't care about Aerosmith and can only casually care about this story, as I know very little about the band, and obviously nothing about their legal and corporate structures. But legal crap like this is just... c'mon man, this isn't life or death we are talking about here.
He wants the court to order him back in the band to avoid “irreparable harm” to him if Aerosmith is allowed to squeeze him out.
That doesn't mean "life or death". It simply means the action will cause harm that can't be repaired. Being essentially kicked out of a band, especially a band that big that you have spent your whole adult life in? I would say that qualifies, and is not being over-dramatic. What the real story / truth is, I am not sure.
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JD, right it might feel that way to that individual but I think crossing that legal hurdle is a massive leap. By extension would everyone who ever gets fired/laid off face "irreparable harm?" Should no one be allowed to fire/lay off anyone ever?
I am not looking at this from the moral/ethical standpoint, as I don't know or care to get in to the nuts and bolts of this situation, but the legal one.
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JD, right it might feel that way to that individual but I think crossing that legal hurdle is a massive leap. By extension would everyone who ever gets fired/laid off face "irreparable harm?" Should no one be allowed to fire/lay off anyone ever?
I am not looking at this from the moral/ethical standpoint, as I don't know or care to get in to the nuts and bolts of this situation, but the legal one.
But you should know as well as anyone that these are most often legal terms (I'm sure Stads will back me up on this). It's like when you plead "not guilty" in a court of law. It's strictly a legal term. The public sees the term "not guilty" in the news and they get all freaked out because they think the person is saying that they didn't do it when it seems obvious that he did. But the legal term "not guilty" is not the same as saying "I didn't do it." Same thing with these terms. They are legal negotiation tactics. At this point, he has probably figured that he's out for good, and he's going to need some kind of a settlement moving forward in order to maintain SOME income from "the company". Probably a lump sum buy out of his share. But that process still involves these legal terms.
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But wasn't he suing to be able to play with them as opposed to for money?
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But wasn't he suing to be able to play with them as opposed to for money?
It says that, but he has to play in order to still have a viable legal claim to his share. If he's not making a bid to claim, the other side could claim some sort of abandonment. So this could still be a tactic.
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But wasn't he suing to be able to play with them as opposed to for money?
It says that, but he has to play in order to still have a viable legal claim to his share. If he's not making a bid to claim, the other side could claim some sort of abandonment. So this could still be a tactic.
Does he? From what I read (I admit not super carefully) it seemed he was trying to play a specific show, as opposed to back in the band for good.
Also, if you're almost 70 years old, and have spent the last almost 50 years in one of the most successful rock bands in history and you can't possibly survive without continued income from playing, as opposed to the royalties he still gets and income from other businesses (his food stuff), then you need a LOT more help than playing a few more tours with Aerosmith.
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Rock stars are not usually known for making the best life decisions. Quite often, people make stupid decisions that have an impact on their future. Even after they wise up, it might be too late to undo past mistakes. If put in that situation, AND faced with the opportunity to either just roll over and take it, or be presented with a very reasonable and legal opportunity to at least not have the rug ripped out from under you, most people would take the latter opportunity.
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Rock stars are not usually known for making the best life decisions. Quite often, people make stupid decisions that have an impact on their future. Even after they wise up, it might be too late to undo past mistakes. If put in that situation, AND faced with the opportunity to either just roll over and take it, or be presented with a very reasonable and legal opportunity to at least not have the rug ripped out from under you, most people would take the latter opportunity.
Don't get me wrong, I think (unless he really doesn't know how to perform anymore) that Aerosmith are being huge dicks doing what they're doing. That said, he has no RIGHT to be employed by them. Bands can kick out members. It sucks, but it happens.
Dude has tons of opportunity. He can retire. He can teach lessons for 2000 dollars an hour if he so chooses and never run out of clients. He can do lots of stuff. He's not out of an income.
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Rock stars are not usually known for making the best life decisions. Quite often, people make stupid decisions that have an impact on their future. Even after they wise up, it might be too late to undo past mistakes. If put in that situation, AND faced with the opportunity to either just roll over and take it, or be presented with a very reasonable and legal opportunity to at least not have the rug ripped out from under you, most people would take the latter opportunity.
Don't get me wrong, I think (unless he really doesn't know how to perform anymore) that Aerosmith are being huge dicks doing what they're doing. That said, he has no RIGHT to be employed by them. Bands can kick out members. It sucks, but it happens.
Dude has tons of opportunity. He can retire. He can teach lessons for 2000 dollars an hour if he so chooses and never run out of clients. He can do lots of stuff. He's not out of an income.
This isn't a local warehouse hourly wage job. If there is a *contract* stating as much, the bolded statement may not be true. There is a big difference between being an employee and being a part owner with a contract. In fact, "big" doesn't even cover it. "Massive" is more accurate.
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And we have no idea what his role with the band is. We just know he's not allowed to perform with them. That's what he's fighting for, that's what he lost.
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So Steven and Joey were the ONLY ones who spoke at an award presentation while the whole band was on stage.
OH to be a fly on the wall for how that came to be.
https://kzok.iheart.com/featured/tyson/content/2020-01-25-video-joey-kramer-and-steven-tyler-speak-at-musiccares/?Sc=editorial&Keyid=socialflow&Pname=local_social&fbclid=IwAR3Kbxv0GsUFwwPp89HEnJXB5LT2vIhRx92TPXWpsBKj2F9MfM9INNe0z2o
It felt like Steven was taking an under the table jab...but as is always the case with these things, you can't prove that. (And Stads, while I often take the side of law, it's things like this that sometimes piss me off about "the law". Because people who want to do evil things have often learned how to operate in the area of the unprovable....but that's another conversation for another thread. Not that what Steven did was "evil" (in fact it may have been the opposite), but it just reminded me of that general idea.)
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First, no surprise, I disagree with Adami, in the sense that "enough money" for anyone is not for me to decide. Or you (or you! or you! or you! as Dio might say). If he wants to fight for more money, more power to him, it's America, and it's his right without judgment from us. (Having said that, I think I noted above that he likely does NOT have the resources that Perry and Tyler do, for various reasons).
Having said that, being part of the corporation MAY imbue other benefits besides money. For example, he might not be able to say "Aerosmith's Joey Kramer!" if he's not in the band or active in the corporation. He does have other businesses - coffee strikes me at the moment, there might be more - that he might need some of the advantages of the Aerosmith machine to further.
ALL of this is specific to the operating agreement of the corporation, and it is futile to speculate without knowledge of that arrangement.
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Wow they made him pay the replacement drummer's salary?
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Wow they made him pay the replacement drummer's salary?
Well....they can word it that way. But it's more likely that his replacement was paid by Aerosmith (the company) out of Joey's paycheck. Which is the same thing but sounds different than Joey physically having to fork over the money. Joey isn't playing, so the money he would have made to play went (at least in part) to someone who filled the position.
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Wow they made him pay the replacement drummer's salary?
Well....they can word it that way. But it's more likely that his replacement was paid by Aerosmith (the company) out of Joey's paycheck. Which is the same thing but sounds different than Joey physically having to fork over the money. Joey isn't playing, so the money he would have made to play went (at least in part) to someone who filled the position.
That would make more sense. I thought he was paying out of his own pocket on top of not making anything off Aerosmith concerts.
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First, no surprise, I disagree with Adami, in the sense that "enough money" for anyone is not for me to decide. Or you (or you! or you! or you! as Dio might say). If he wants to fight for more money, more power to him, it's America, and it's his right without judgment from us. (Having said that, I think I noted above that he likely does NOT have the resources that Perry and Tyler do, for various reasons).
I never said enough money. I was arguing against it being life and death.
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And we have no idea what his role with the band is. We just know he's not allowed to perform with them. That's what he's fighting for, that's what he lost.
Isn't this point Adami what Stadler missed?
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First, no surprise, I disagree with Adami, in the sense that "enough money" for anyone is not for me to decide. Or you (or you! or you! or you! as Dio might say). If he wants to fight for more money, more power to him, it's America, and it's his right without judgment from us. (Having said that, I think I noted above that he likely does NOT have the resources that Perry and Tyler do, for various reasons).
I never said enough money. I was arguing against it being life and death.
Then I apologize (sincerely). I read it as a variation on "he's got enough money, what's the big deal?"
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It's funny comparing Aerosmith operating as a corporation, compared with what we've seen from Rush. I know we've all done our Rush Deep Dives over the last couple of weeks, and it's a true testament to partners all working together.
I love me some classic Aerosmith, but I would never pay and go see them ever again, as this is all about the buck. The band has basically become a store front to take your money.
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Whenever I see "John Kalodner = John Kalodner" on an album I kind of assume that's the direction the band is headed. That's been the case since Done With Mirrors, but really came to the fore with "Get A Grip".
This is a somewhat famous quote by him (it's on Wikipedia, but I've read it in other places as well): "Kalodner considered that the best example of his contribution to an artist's success was his role in Aerosmith's 1993 Get a Grip album, for the reasons that "...first of all, I made them rerecord the whole record completely. Second of all, I made them write with all these different people. They were very resistant. The record is an interesting eclectic record with, like, five hit singles, very rare in music, and Bruce Fairbairn produced it. And I got Brendan O'Brien to mix it, who became a giant producer. So for all those reasons, and, of course, it sold like 20 million copies worldwide.""
I've seen them since - because it was a show both my ex-wife and I would both go to - but they haven't been a top tier band since PUMP, their last truly great album.
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Speaking of Done With Mirrors, I absolutely love that album, and I rank Permanent Vacation easily their weakest 80's album.
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Speaking of Done With Mirrors, I absolutely love that album, and I rank Permanent Vacation easily their weakest 80's album.
I just listened to DWM in the car the other day. Very good album. I think I like PV more than you do, but it's certainly not their best. I like it more than GAG, though, which is an appropriate acronym.
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Hah.
My 80's Aerosmith listing:
Done With Mirrors
Rock In A Hard Place
Pump
Permanent Vacation
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Pump would be my #1 of the 80's.
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One theory as to why they were concerned about him playing with them is perhaps they were performing a medley of songs, which would require a lot of intricate cuts from one song to the next. Without adequate practice, there would be no way to quickly get him on the same page with the rest of the band.
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One theory as to why they were concerned about him playing with them is perhaps they were performing a medley of songs, which would require a lot of intricate cuts from one song to the next. Without adequate practice, there would be no way to quickly get him on the same page with the rest of the band.
Sounds like an issue that could be solved by having proper rehearsals all together, like a band is supposed to do.
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One theory as to why they were concerned about him playing with them is perhaps they were performing a medley of songs, which would require a lot of intricate cuts from one song to the next. Without adequate practice, there would be no way to quickly get him on the same page with the rest of the band.
Sounds like an issue that could be solved by having proper rehearsals all together, like a band is supposed to do.
The rehearsals that he was allegedly not showing up for (allegedly for health reasons)....thus them wanting to exclude him...thus the lawsuit.
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One theory as to why they were concerned about him playing with them is perhaps they were performing a medley of songs, which would require a lot of intricate cuts from one song to the next. Without adequate practice, there would be no way to quickly get him on the same page with the rest of the band.
Sounds like an issue that could be solved by having proper rehearsals all together, like a band is supposed to do.
The rehearsals that he was allegedly not showing up for (allegedly for health reasons)....thus them wanting to exclude him...thus the lawsuit.
D'uh. Missed this detail then.
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Yeah. Watching their Grammy performance. I don't get their reasoning. Joe Perry sounds like a bad Guitar hero performance.
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Joey Kramer wasn’t good enough to play with THAT?!?
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:lol that was pretty poor sounding until Run DMC actually made it sound much better surprisingly
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https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/aerosmith-to-celebrate-50th-anniversary-with-fenway-park-concert/?fbclid=IwAR34SwiJomx2LLQETU0tBJ34zjiwnXDMKnmX5VgEVOlfSr-JTRfyharNToM (https://www.blabbermouth.net/news/aerosmith-to-celebrate-50th-anniversary-with-fenway-park-concert/?fbclid=IwAR34SwiJomx2LLQETU0tBJ34zjiwnXDMKnmX5VgEVOlfSr-JTRfyharNToM)
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Hah.
My 80's Aerosmith listing:
Done With Mirrors
Rock In A Hard Place
Pump
Permanent Vacation
GAG is 90's, sorry. It was all a blur. ;)
Hmm, that's not a bad list. I might do:
Pump
DWM
RIAHP
PV
But it's not like there's a huge gap between any two. I do know this: I liked the ballads a lot better when they were 70's ballads, tucked at the end of side two to break up the fury. Once they started writing ballad trilogies and what not, they lost me. I'm pretty sure "Living On The Edge" was the last single I really felt connected to. Maybe "Deuces Are Wild". I like "Pink", but just because it's funny, not because it's a great tune or anything. "Pink, it's like red but not quite." :)
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Joey Kramer wasn’t good enough to play with THAT?!?
Yea, that was a pretty meh performance. Drummer, obviously playing to a click, lacked any real groove.
I'll be honest, IF Joey wasn't up to the level of that performance (Big if) then he's done.
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Oh boy. I found this in another forum discussing the Aerosmith drama regarding this court decision. We got a bunch of well qualified people here that is well-versed in legal stuff. This should be an interesting read when it comes to a court case between long-time band members and how terminology like "employer," "employee," and "corporation" is being referenced in this read.
https://www.scribd.com/document/443943778/Kramer-v-Vidaloo-Decision-2083cv52?fbclid=IwAR0Z_qs-fRAwTy3pkTl00kLNTglm_iZ8KVstifFe5_eqMUzv15ZIl4tzaQk
Edit: I like this part so far, "Paragraph 16 then states that those agreements were not drafted as effectively as they should have been and have been the source of several controversies among the band members." No kidding.
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I thought I read that he did the audition but they said no after?
https://www.scribd.com/document/443943778/Kramer-v-Vidaloo-Decision-2083cv52?fbclid=IwAR0Z_qs-fRAwTy3pkTl00kLNTglm_iZ8KVstifFe5_eqMUzv15ZIl4tzaQk
Just started reading this and I found the answer to the question. I can't quote that doc so I'll summarize, he didn't do the audition when he wanted to return to the residency so they continued with the tech playing drums. But Kramer wanted to get back to the band to perform at the awards and do the 2020 residency dates so he did the audition (which was recording his drums to a click and sending the tapes to the rest of the band). The band then met and voted 4-1 (Kramer being the 1) in favor of the tech's drumming being better. This also shows opinions of two others, one who says it was sufficient, one who says the tech was much better. Who the hell knows.
The band did say they would bring him back for the residency not the awards because they would need too much time to rehearse with him.
He also get's paid 100% of his shares for everything besides the live performance which he gets 90% and the tech gets 10%. I can't imagine this is about money since he's been getting paid.
Also, this stems from their agreement not having anything stated on the requirements to return to the band from injury.
I got to think there is more to this, if he's getting paid and has an opportunity to return, did he just destroy his chances of returning by suing them? It must be something more personal behind it IMO. That was definitely an interesting read though.
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So their big 50th anniversary show at Fenway... I'm thinking about going. For one, that will be a cool way to visit Fenway Park for the first time, second, its right around my birthday just like it was when i saw them in Vegas last fall, so might be a nice little (OK, probably kind of big since I bet ticket prices aren't cheap and they weren't last year either) birthday gift to myself. And third, it will keep my streak of a concert a year in MA. This is tempting...
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Fenway - and the area around it - is awesome. I just saw The Cult at a club literally across the street from the Green Monster.
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I bought a ticket and booked a hotel room. It's refundable and being that I got a cheaper first row of the bleacher seat, I'm sure I can sell it if things come up. But I did put a work vacation day in and I definitely want to make it. :metal :metal also Extreme is opening, so while it may not be Joey playing drums and the guys might be a bit too old to sound great, I think it's going to be a really fun night in Boston almost exactly one year from seeing them in one of my favorite (out of 59) concerts of 2019.
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An Extreme/Aerosmith double bill? I might get off my fat ass for that one. I saw the Pornograffiti 25th tour and they killed it (even though they were CLEARLY upset about something with the venue).
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Yea, it's like a Boston hometown show for Aerosmith's 50th Anniversary with also Boston's Extreme. Also, another Boston hometown show the next night at Fenway for New Kids on the Block :lol
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So Joey performed with them last night... was this all for attention?
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So Joey performed with them last night... was this all for attention?
Doubtful. Looks like this is just what happens sometimes with these situations. Things get out of hand and then (in good situations) calm down.
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Agreed. This is just another day at the office in the end. Because (as we've discovered over the last couple of decades) they are not really "brothers"...or even friends. They are co-workers. Period. Co-workers that don't even really like each other most of the time, but they put up with each other because they all have this understanding that they are best serving their customers by presenting the 5 of them. But at the same time, there is also an understanding that the company is primarily Tyler and Perry. Anyone else *could* be replaced and the "brand would continue...but the brand would also suffer...so they try to avoid such things. But poop happens, and that's all this was.
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More trouble - Steven Tyler enters rehab, Aerosmith cancels upcoming tour dates.
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/steven_tyler_enters_rehab_aerosmith_cancel_upcoming_tour_dates.html (https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/steven_tyler_enters_rehab_aerosmith_cancel_upcoming_tour_dates.html)
"In a new official announcement shared through their social media, Aerosmith have revealed that vocalist Steven Tyler has "relapsed and voluntarily entered a treatment program." Due to the issue, Aerosmith are canceling their upcoming Las Vegas residency dates planned for June and July".
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Sucks and I hope he gets better. Still planning on going to the Fenway Park show in September but I wonder if he will be OK by then.
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..and Joey Kramer wasn’t even doing those dates either.
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More trouble - Steven Tyler enters rehab, Aerosmith cancels upcoming tour dates.
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/steven_tyler_enters_rehab_aerosmith_cancel_upcoming_tour_dates.html (https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/general_music_news/steven_tyler_enters_rehab_aerosmith_cancel_upcoming_tour_dates.html)
"In a new official announcement shared through their social media, Aerosmith have revealed that vocalist Steven Tyler has "relapsed and voluntarily entered a treatment program." Due to the issue, Aerosmith are canceling their upcoming Las Vegas residency dates planned for June and July".
So help an old man out... didn't this very thing - I mean, exactly: foot injury, surgery, resulting relapse on painkillers - happen already about five years ago? I read the press release, and I had a wicked case of deja vu, and I felt like I had read that exact same release once before.
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Peace Out tourdates. Seems like this is their farewell tour. No Joey Kramer though.
Aerosmith, Peace Out Tour
Sept. 02 – Philadelphia, PA @ Wells Fargo Center
Sept. 06 – Pittsburgh, PA @ PPG Paints Arena
Sept. 09 – Belmont Park, NY @ UBS Arena
Sept. 12 – Toronto, ON @ Scotiabank Arena
Sept. 15 – Chicago, IL @ United Center
Sept. 18 – Detroit, MI @ Little Caesars Arena
Sept. 21 – Cleveland, OH @ Rocket Mortgage FieldHouse
Sept. 24 – Raleigh, NC @ PNC Arena
Sept. 27 – Washington, DC @ Capital One Arena
Oct. 11 – Tampa, FL @ Amalie Arena
Oct. 14 – Atlanta, GA @ State Farm Arena
Oct. 17 – Charlotte, NC @ Spectrum Center
Oct. 20 – Sunrise, FL @ FLA Live Arena
Oct. 23 – Austin, TX @ Moody Center
Oct. 26 – St Louis, MO @ Enterprise Center
Oct. 29 – Indianapolis, IN @ Gainbridge Fieldhouse
Nov. 01 – San Antonio, TX @ AT&T Arena
Nov. 04 – Tulsa, OK @ BOK Center
Nov. 07 – Dallas, TX @ American Airlines Center
Nov. 10 – Omaha, NE @ CHI Health Center
Nov. 13 – St Paul, MN @ Xcel Energy Center
Nov. 16 – Kansas City, MO @ T-Mobile Center
Nov. 19 – Denver, CO @ Ball Arena
Nov. 22 – Salt Lake City, UT @ Vivint Arena
Nov. 25 – Portland, OR @ Moda Center
Nov. 28 – Seattle, WA @ Climate Pledge Arena
Dec. 01 – San Francisco, CA @ Chase Center
Dec. 04 – San Jose, CA @ SAP Center
Dec. 07 – Los Angeles, CA @ The Kia Forum
Dec. 10 – Phoenix, AZ @ Footprint Center
Dec. 28 – Newark, NJ @ Prudential Center
Dec. 31 – Boston, MA @ TD Garden
Jan. 04 – Cincinnati, OH @ Heritage Bank Arena
Jan. 07 – Louisville, KY @ KFC Yum! Center
Jan. 10 – Nashville, TN @ Bridgestone Arena
Jan. 13 – Knoxville, TN @ Thompson-Boling Arena
Jan. 16 – Buffalo, NY @ KeyBank Center
Jan. 19 – New York, NY @ Madison Square Garden
Jan. 23 – Columbus, OH @ Schottenstein Center
Jan. 26 – Montreal, QC @ Bell Centre
Read More: Aerosmith Announces 'Peace Out' Farewell Tour | https://ultimateclassicrock.com/aerosmith-peace-out-farewell-tour/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=ugh&utm_term=UCR&utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral
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Will have to try and catch them
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Interesting that there's a minimum 3 days between shows. I'd imagine that has a lot to do with Stevens health. I'd like to go to the NJ or NYC show.
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Saw them at Fenway late last year and they still deliver. It's a little more polished than the Aerosmith of the '70s and '80s, but a solid two hours, no question.
They're saying all the right things about Joey Kramer ("he's a brother, we want him to be well") but John Douglass is still the drummer for this run of shows.
In the press release I read, I heard they might be adding some shows; I don't know if that's at the end - more geography - or it's in-between the dates listed. Joe Perry's comment seemed to indicate that it was more geography at the end.
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Was curious about seeing them in St Paul, but it looks like $300 minimum for a lower level ticket. Gonna pass on that one. Caught them about 20 years ago during the KISS/Aerosmith double headline tour. (Aerosmith absolutely destroyed KISS, btw).
This has got to be one of the slowest selling concerts for a major act I’ve seen in awhile- 6 hours on sale and interestingly all the cheaper upper level tickets are sold out while a ton of 1st/2nd row lower level seats sitting there for sale >$1000.
If that’s not an indication that tickets are priced too high then I don’t know what is. Clearly, only a very small number of people in the Twin Cities want to pay over a G to see Aerosmith. Go figure.
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Was curious about seeing them in St Paul, but it looks like $300 minimum for a lower level ticket.
That's fucked!
Might be one of the worst major acts I've ever seen on stage.
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Was curious about seeing them in St Paul, but it looks like $300 minimum for a lower level ticket.
That's fucked!
Might be one of the worst major acts I've ever seen on stage.
Really? When did you see them? They were, for a while, one of the "see them whenever they come around" bands, so I've seen them a lot. I've seen some shit - the '84 tour when Steven fell off the drum riser, bombed out of his tits - to some really good shows - PUMP was probably the best. Fenway was polished, but it was pretty damn good.
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Was curious about seeing them in St Paul, but it looks like $300 minimum for a lower level ticket.
That's fucked!
Might be one of the worst major acts I've ever seen on stage.
Really? When did you see them? They were, for a while, one of the "see them whenever they come around" bands, so I've seen them a lot. I've seen some shit - the '84 tour when Steven fell off the drum riser, bombed out of his tits - to some really good shows - PUMP was probably the best. Fenway was polished, but it was pretty damn good.
I saw the Done With Mirrors ('85), Permanent Vacation ('88), and Pump ('89).
I thought the Pump stage was awesome, and Tyler is a great showman, but I thought they were not great live. I find Joe Perry one of the cringiest rockers out there. And Kramer, Hamilton, and Whitford just have nothing on say Rudd, Williams, and Young.
In '85, Ted Nugent blew them off the stage. And I don't mean maybe. In '88, GnR blew them off the stage, and in '89, Skid Row was way more interesting than they should've been.
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Was curious about seeing them in St Paul, but it looks like $300 minimum for a lower level ticket.
That's fucked!
Might be one of the worst major acts I've ever seen on stage.
Really? When did you see them? They were, for a while, one of the "see them whenever they come around" bands, so I've seen them a lot. I've seen some shit - the '84 tour when Steven fell off the drum riser, bombed out of his tits - to some really good shows - PUMP was probably the best. Fenway was polished, but it was pretty damn good.
I saw the Done With Mirrors ('85), Permanent Vacation ('88), and Pump ('89).
I thought the Pump stage was awesome, and Tyler is a great showman, but I thought they were not great live. I find Joe Perry one of the cringiest rockers out there. And Kramer, Hamilton, and Whitford just have nothing on say Rudd, Williams, and Young.
In '85, Ted Nugent blew them off the stage. And I don't mean maybe. In '88, GnR blew them off the stage, and in '89, Skid Row was way more interesting than they should've been.
I'd agree with the Nugent. I didn't see the Permanent Vacation tour, but I did see Pump, and I'd probably agree with Skid Row.
If you're not into Joe Perry, though, that's the ticket, because so much of Aerosmith is that vibe.
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Well, I compare them to AC/DC because with AC/DC, you have Angus running around doing his thing, and with Aerosmith, you have Tyler who is a great showman.
But there's a collective that each respective band has or doesn't have. With AC/DC, there's this force that comes at you, even as they're pretty much just standing around. The Aerosmith collective has never been very strong to me.
And I love old Aerosmith, as well as the old Joe Perry albums.
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I saw them on the Permanant Vacation tour. They were good. Not mind blowing live. They filmed footage for the Video "Angel" that night. Dokken opened up for them which was a great opener.
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I saw them on the Permanant Vacation tour. They were good. Not mind blowing live. They filmed footage for the Video "Angel" that night. Dokken opened up for them which was a great opener.
Oh shit, I saw that leg of the tour as well. You have to blow live if Dokken looks good.
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:lol I knew as fast as I typed it you were ready to blast away at Dokken and that leads to.......
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To each his own I guess, but I saw Aerosmith a couple of times during the Pump and Get A Grip tours and they were killer. Not just Tyler but all of them. Seldom experienced so much energy on stage.
Openers that I remember were Mr. Big and The Black Crowes and while both were good they couldn't hold a candle to Aerosmith's performance.
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Was curious about seeing them in St Paul, but it looks like $300 minimum for a lower level ticket.
That's fucked!
Might be one of the worst major acts I've ever seen on stage.
Really? When did you see them? They were, for a while, one of the "see them whenever they come around" bands, so I've seen them a lot. I've seen some shit - the '84 tour when Steven fell off the drum riser, bombed out of his tits - to some really good shows - PUMP was probably the best. Fenway was polished, but it was pretty damn good.
I too have seen them a lot... for some reason the Nine Lives tour I really enjoyed.. Ill be seeing them on this final tour because I have to by law :)
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Openers that I remember were Mr. Big and The Black Crowes and while both were good they couldn't hold a candle to Aerosmith's performance.
Mr. Big and The Black Crowes would make any headliner look good. ;D
Actually I saw TBC on their very first small club tour for their first album and enjoyed it a lot.
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I wasn't able to be available to check for tickets during the on sale time, but not surprisingly, I would have been priced out and am certainly fair away from current prices I see. Which seems I'm not the only one as I'm somewhat surprised the two local shows (NJ, NYC) are not sold out. The pricing for the behind the stage seats is absurd to me as well. Maybe it does give hope for a cheap single ticket to pop up and I can go to one of the shows. If Fenway was my last experience, I'd be OK with that though. I'd love to see this tour, but it's not a must see since I got to go to the Fenway show which likely will be better than this current tour anyway.
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New compilation was announced recently. It's called Greatest Hits, just like their 1980 set Greatest Hits. :rollin
This time, there's no 2 new songs (like there were in 1994, 2002 and 2006). As far as I can tell, there's nothing unreleased either. Matter of fact, there's only one song post O, Yeah! Ultimate Aerosmith Hits (and it's a Diane Warren composition).
And that's on the deluxe edition! The standard 1CD/2LP version ends with "I Don't Wanna Miss A Thing". It's as if the band were celebrating their 25th anniversary. :facepalm:
I got into the band in 2002, with the O, Yeah! set. Even back then, my friend and I used to joke about the number of Aerosmith compilations available. I think that 12-year-old me would find it quite amusing to learn about this one.
On an unrelated note... How cool is "Gotta Love It", right? Dat bass! :hefdaddy