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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: jadiggerdt on November 18, 2019, 05:36:19 AM
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Perhaps a difficult question. Is DT's popularity worldwide on a downward curve. Of course there are several good new progmetal bands that they have to compete against, but it seems like it :huh: :-
Surprisingly few tickets sold although it is a bit early on the Europe tour which starts in jan 2020
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I'm not sure about that but a factor to consider is the steep ticket prices.
They used to go for under 500 SEK but the I&W & beyond tickets cost 800 SEK and these tickets now go for 1055 SEK.
Was at another concert this weekend that only cost me 280 SEK.
Even I hesitated for a few seconds when I saw the price 1055 SEK but bought a couple anyway. I'm sure quite a few more tickets had been sold if they cost the same as Opeth the day before at the same venue (Cirkus in Stockholm) which was 530 SEK.
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I'm not sure about that but a factor to consider is the steep ticket prices.
They used to go for under 500 SEK but the I&W & beyond tickets cost 800 SEK and these tickets now go for 1055 SEK.
Was at another concert this weekend that only cost me 280 SEK.
Even I hesitated for a few seconds when I saw the price 1055 SEK but bought a couple anyway. I'm sure quite a few more tickets had been sold if they cost the same as Opeth the day before at the same venue (Cirkus in Stockholm) which was 530 SEK.
Good point. Since I went to my first DT gig in 2009, I wouldn't even contemplate NOT going to see them when they came to the UK (I also travelled to Manchester and London on my own on the tours where they didn't visit Scotland). But this time, I'm giving them a miss, even though they're playing just over an hour away. The setlist is also a contributing factor for me, but cost is the main one.
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I do think it's possible that their popularity is a little on the downswing. Certainly the ticket prices and setlist, as mentioned above, could be a factor in this particular tour not being a huge seller. But this goes back even before this last tour. I can't remember which year it was - I think 2014 or 2015 - but a friend from Europe was telling me how Steven Wilson was headlining over DT at a festival. Somehow I don't think Steven Wilson has gained much more popularity than when Porcupine Tree still existed, although I might be wrong. And of course, it could just be the promoter doing that, but I would imagine that promoters have a pretty good pulse on popularity of different bands since that is a big part of their job.
Another thing would be to look at the size of the venues DT is playing these days in comparison to the past - are they smaller than before? And even if they are the same or of similar capacity, are the venues being filled by the same number of fans as before? Again, that does not provide iron-clad proof that their popularity is dwindling, because on this most current tour through North America, it seems the attendance of shows on the second leg was not as high as on the first leg, similar to what happened in 2016. And some of that could be attributed to the shows being played in the same cities as on the first leg, or in cities nearby (within reasonable driving distance). With no significant changes to the setlist, many fans weren't motivated to see them a second time.
So yeah, it's hard to say for certain. But there is some evidence that their popularity might be shrinking. Only time will tell if that's really the case or not.
edit: This thread talks a bit about the attendance on the second leg of this current tour:
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=54349.0
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I do think it's possible that their popularity is a little on the downswing. Certainly the ticket prices and setlist, as mentioned above, could be a factor in this particular tour not being a huge seller. But this goes back even before this last tour. I can't remember which year it was - I think 2014 or 2015 - but a friend from Europe was telling me how Steven Wilson was headlining over DT at a festival. Somehow I don't think Steven Wilson has gained much more popularity than when Porcupine Tree still existed, although I might be wrong. And of course, it could just be the promoter doing that, but I would imagine that promoters have a pretty good pulse on popularity of different bands since that is a big part of their job.
Location has to do with it as well. SW is probably bigger than DT in certain parts of Europe. I'm thinking UK for sure.
To also compare with DT, they are playing a show in Brazil with Sabaton opening for them in a couple weeks. I don't think any other location Sabaton would be opening for DT (they just finished an almost entirely sold out NA tour of similar venue size as DT) and about to do an arena tour of Europe next. But this location might make sense (I actually don't know that, but I know DT has always toured SA and done well down there).
Having said all that, DT's popularity probably is going down a bit as all of rock n roll has experienced. DT themselves though seem to be relatively stable, seems they always play the same sized venues and have similar draws. They went down a bit for the 2nd leg of TA, went back up for DT12, and now back down on the second leg of DT12.
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It seems like the band is playing a little bit bigger venues than before, which probably explains more empty seats in a lot of places (2,000 fans in a 3,000-seat venue will have more empty seats than 2,000 fans in a 2,500-seat venue), or maybe that was just the case here in St Louis where they played a venue a little bigger than any they had played here before in both 2016 and 2019.
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Perhaps a difficult question. Is DT's popularity worldwide on a downward curve. Of course there are several good new progmetal bands that they have to compete against, but it seems like it :huh: :-
Surprisingly few tickets sold although it is a bit early on the Europe tour which starts in jan 2020
Difficult to answer without some really detailed supporting information. But in a nutshell, they are more staying level, if I had to really choose. But popularity ebbs and flows, particularly for a band like Dream Theater. The competition nowadays is high, but it has always been high. DT is a niche band, in a niche genre, who needs crossover appeal to some mainstream hard rock and metal fans to really expand the fan base. For the most part, they have achieved that. And generally speaking, you've seen young fans at DT shows -- and not just kid that parents brought along. These are your late-teens, early-20-somethings going on their own and being fans.
That said, however, I really do think the band shot itself in the foot with The Astonishing. I'm not talking about the merits of the record artistically. I'm just talking about how polarizing it was. On one hand, you applaud DT for sticking to it, and performing it in its entirety. Relevant bands support their new music. On the other hand, it was a stretch for those more casual fans (a group I consider myself a part of, even though I've been a fan since the mid-90s), because the album's eclectic nature really soured some people.
Using myself as an example, after buying The Astonishing, trying hard to get into it, and ultimately just not liking it, I passed on seeing the tour (which passed through my area twice). The record, if we're being honest, was this era's Falling Into Infinity -- it has its fans, but many do not like it. And so DT played "recovery" by doing the I&W anniversary tour. And now, the DoT/SFAM tour does the same thing -- pairing new stuff, but having a classic record to bring those mainstream people into the fold.
For me personally, I love DOT, so I would have gone regardless, but I wouldn't underestimate the fans that would not have gone to see DT had SFAM not been played. It's a selling point, and a smart one, given what happened with The Astonishing.
I think Dream Theater has rebounded from The Astonishing (again, not talking about the merits of it artistically, just in terms of its impact on the fan base) quite well, but I don't think the band is "on the rise." They are treading water successfully, as they generally always do, with some good will from a well received Distance Over Time album. The venues have varied, but for the most part, they are slightly bigger, which is a good sign. But I just don't see them continuing to add fans by any sort of wide margin. They're staying afloat
Again, as always, just my opinion.
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For me it was the ticket prices and setlist. Distance over Time is in my top 3 DT albums, so it has nothing to do with popularity. Also if they played all of Awake OR Distance over Time I would have gone. I've seen SFAM live before.
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The first two DT shows I saw were at tiny clubs that probably had a capacity of only a couple hundred each. I then saw them at venues with the following capacities:
2/12/93 - 1,500
6/3/93 - 2,651
12/8/94 - 550-972 (?)
9/19/04 - 6,189 (opening for Yes)
3/9/06 - 1,700
7/27/07 - 6,189 (w/ 2 opening bands)
5/2/08 - 6,189 (Prog Nation 2008)
8/29/09 - 5,870 (Prog Nation 2009)
6/19/10 - 10,900 (opening for Iron Maiden) (the capacity is only reserved seats, and the venue also has another 54,000 unreserved "seats" on the law at the back of the venue)
9/25/11 - 7,100
12/2/11 - 1,700
4/19/14 - 2,000
10/26/17 - 1,850
3/22/19 - 1,850
Needless to say, I don't remember how full every show was, but I know a couple of the 5,000+ venues were not close to capacity for the headlining slots (even the Prog Nation shows). The 1,500-2,500 seat venue seems to be about right.
As I said in the tour thread, I didn't go to the second leg of the DOT tour because of the venue location, the night of the week and the set list. That being said, I'm not sure there's any active band for whom I'd drive out to Riverside on a Monday night.
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Steven Wilson is massively more popular now than he ever was in the Porcupine Tree days.
DT's popularity is on a steady decline. In terms of crowd-pulling ability, they peaked around 2008-2011. The declining attendances seem to directly correlate to insane ticket prices and static setlists.
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I know ticket prices vary, and it seemed like DT's prices were generally going up, but last winter I scored a ticket for the NJ show for like $35 after fees at through livenation (aka I didn't get a resale ticket under face value or anything, this was face value). I forget exactly, but it was the cheapest ticket I can remember buying for an evening with DT show.
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Steven Wilson is massively more popular now than he ever was in the Porcupine Tree days.
The thing is, he put PT to bed just as this wave of popularity started to rise. Had PT continued, that band would have been absolutely MASSIVE. I saw PT on a one-off, in San Francisco, with Karnivool opening, on The Incident tour. They played The Warfield, which seats 2,800. The largest venue PT had ever played in the Bay Area. The tours before that were in 800 and 1000 clubs. So my argument would be - Steven Wilson saw the popularity, and realized he wrote a lot of the songs, and then shut down PT to reap the benefits of PT's success as a solo artist.
It has worked, generally, but SW has never again played The Warfield as a solo act. He's back in the 800-capacity clubs. Still sold out, but clubs. That's just here in the Bay Area though. Not sure about the rest of the U.S. or the rest of the world
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Steven Wilson is massively more popular now than he ever was in the Porcupine Tree days.
The thing is, he put PT to bed just as this wave of popularity started to rise. Had PT continued, that band would have been absolutely MASSIVE. I saw PT on a one-off, in San Francisco, with Karnivool opening, on The Incident tour. They played The Warfield, which seats 2,800. The largest venue PT had ever played in the Bay Area. The tours before that were in 800 and 1000 clubs. So my argument would be - Steven Wilson saw the popularity, and realized he wrote a lot of the songs, and then shut down PT to reap the benefits of PT's success as a solo artist.
It has worked, generally, but SW has never again played The Warfield as a solo act. He's back in the 800-capacity clubs. Still sold out, but clubs. That's just here in the Bay Area though. Not sure about the rest of the U.S. or the rest of the world
Saw him twice, in Denver and NJ, and he played about 2k capacity venues. Denver was packed, NJ was half empty, but he also played a few shows close to that NJ show before and after that one. He's definitely got a solid following, maybe a bit less than DT here in the states, but he's doing an arena europe tour next. Not sure how that's selling, but he's at least trying to up the game in Europe.
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I think they’re popularity is declining a little now. Unless you’re a band like Metallica or Rush, that’s only natural at this point. They were slowly building back up from Scenes through BCSL. I actually think the ADTOE/DT era was their most popular. They were doing well in the charts, they had a Grammy nomination, they seemed to be playing bigger venues. Tons of exposure online and in interviews. I really think the drummer documentary had a lot to do with it. I saw a lot people online discussing them that you normally wouldn’t see. They had gone outside the DT/Prog Metal bubble. Hell, they had a concert video played in movie theaters! I mean. Fuck! Lol. What Samsara said is probably right. The Astonishing killed some of that. And when I saw they were doing a SFAM anniversary show, I thought they were either still trying to recover, or worried.
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They haven't had a hit on the radio since PMU. It's been nearly three decades since they've had decent radio exposure. It's too bad their record labels haven't had enough clout to get them on mainstream rock radio. They have plenty of radio friendly songs throughout their catalogue, even on Distance Over Time.
Also their promoters need to get them to different cities. As someone said above, the second leg of this tour in the U.S. hit a lot of the same cities especially the west coast. They've skipped the Pacific Northwest for the last three tours now so people may be forgetting about them in those areas, or moving on from them. It's like fishing, you got to keep tension on the line if you don't want to lose your catch. Same thing with a fanbase..
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They’ve been playing in the same venues in Minneapolis/St Paul for 15-20 years now, so it appears they haven’t really lost any steam up here in the North country. The one time they played a smaller venue (Along for the Ride) it was because their usual spots were booked, and that show sold out within days, if I remember correctly.
Playing in a 2000 seat venue once every 2.5-3 years seems to be perfect for them in this market.
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I started to see them in 1999 in Italy and in these 20 years they've always played the same venue. The one that Iron Maiden sell out in a few days. Sometimes it was packed and sometimes there was more room, but they've always played there with the odd exception (festivals, a theatre for The Astonishing).
So I'd say at least in Italy they've always been in the general popularity of the big ones, the acts that get the biggest available arena in Milan.
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I think the average of the concerts will be around 4000 spectators at the European Tour 2020.
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I started to see them in 1999 in Italy and in these 20 years they've always played the same venue. The one that Iron Maiden sell out in a few days. Sometimes it was packed and sometimes there was more room, but they've always played there with the odd exception (festivals, a theatre for The Astonishing).
So I'd say at least in Italy they've always been in the general popularity of the big ones, the acts that get the biggest available arena in Milan.
as they are in Germany (largely anyway)
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Yeah, I’m sure their popularity in Europe and probably Asia hasn’t waned the way it perhaps has in the U.S. They seem to be playing smaller and smaller venues in Dallas. But they’re are also new venues opening around here all of the time. So...that may have something to do with it. This past year DT played a venue of similar size that The Neal Morse Band had played a couple of months earlier. That surprised me.
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Yeah, I’m sure their popularity in Europe and probably Asia hasn’t waned the way it perhaps has in the U.S. They seem to be playing smaller and smaller venues in Dallas. But they’re are also new venues opening around here all of the time. So...that may have something to do with it. This past year DT played a venue of similar size that The Neal Morse Band had played a couple of months earlier. That surprised me.
I went to the Dallas show at the end of the I&W&B tour, it wasn't full at all but the venue was much bigger than usual. Apparently its 4k capacity, although the outer seats were mostly empty.
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Steven Wilson is massively more popular now than he ever was in the Porcupine Tree days.
DT's popularity is on a steady decline. In terms of crowd-pulling ability, they peaked around 2008-2011. The declining attendances seem to directly correlate to insane ticket prices and static setlists.
Not only that, but MP leaving and the release of TA following DT12 didn't do them any favors in the popularity dept either.
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Static setlists, the Astonishing and skyrocketing prices are definitely to blame.
The fact that they played I&W and SFAM anniversary shows on two consecutive tours speaks volumes about their desire to pull the attendance back up (and maybe justify the expensive tickets).
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Yeah, I’m sure their popularity in Europe and probably Asia hasn’t waned the way it perhaps has in the U.S. They seem to be playing smaller and smaller venues in Dallas. But they’re are also new venues opening around here all of the time. So...that may have something to do with it. This past year DT played a venue of similar size that The Neal Morse Band had played a couple of months earlier. That surprised me.
I went to the Dallas show at the end of the I&W&B tour, it wasn't full at all but the venue was much bigger than usual. Apparently its 4k capacity, although the outer seats were mostly empty.
Yep, and when they came this year for the DOT show, they played The Bomb Factory over in the Deep Ellum area. It’s smaller. Probably a 2-3k seater. Before the Astonishing they played Verizon Theatre. A 6K+ seater.
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Yeah, I’m sure their popularity in Europe and probably Asia hasn’t waned the way it perhaps has in the U.S. They seem to be playing smaller and smaller venues in Dallas. But they’re are also new venues opening around here all of the time. So...that may have something to do with it. This past year DT played a venue of similar size that The Neal Morse Band had played a couple of months earlier. That surprised me.
I went to the Dallas show at the end of the I&W&B tour, it wasn't full at all but the venue was much bigger than usual. Apparently its 4k capacity, although the outer seats were mostly empty.
Yeah, you were all alone up there. :lol
Yeah, I’m sure their popularity in Europe and probably Asia hasn’t waned the way it perhaps has in the U.S. They seem to be playing smaller and smaller venues in Dallas. But they’re are also new venues opening around here all of the time. So...that may have something to do with it. This past year DT played a venue of similar size that The Neal Morse Band had played a couple of months earlier. That surprised me.
I went to the Dallas show at the end of the I&W&B tour, it wasn't full at all but the venue was much bigger than usual. Apparently its 4k capacity, although the outer seats were mostly empty.
Yep, and when they came this year for the DOT show, they played The Bomb Factory over in the Deep Ellum area. It’s smaller. Probably a 2-3k seater. Before the Astonishing they played Verizon Theatre. A 6K+ seater.
The Bomb Factor in that configuration was 1200 (normally it's unseated) and they sold it out. That's a pretty good turnout for them. Their previous MO had been to play venues far too big for them in smaller configurations. The Pavilion was either 2500 or 4k, depending on the configuration (I don't recall if the side sections were open or not). Nextstage was their venue of choice for a very long time, and that's up to 5500. I believe they played a 1500 seat configuration, and I never saw them fill that place. Before that it was the beloved Bronco Bowl, which was 3500. During all of this time they'd only sell about 1k-1200 tickets for these places.
In any case, the Steven Wilson comparison is interesting, because I think it represents the problem. SW is doing new and exciting things. DT is stagnant. We've all seen it before (and some of us think it used to be far better). Even if the new music is good it's not anything new. They're simply not particularly progressive anymore. What I'm seeing is that people who go to see DT now do so because they can, but they're not hugely excited about it. Pricing will certainly hurt that. SW is drawing in the oldschool prog fans that lost interest in DT 15 years ago. Despite them all being ostensibly in the prog category, there are a ton of people who will turn out to see the Dreggs, or Crimson, or SW, that don't give a shit about DT anymore, if they ever did.
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During the last decade, DT frequently played in Spodek, Katowice when visiting Poland - 2011, 2014 and 2017. The Hall's capacity is 11,5k, though only half of the seats are available when the stage and other show infrastructure is setup. In 2011 I bought a ticket for 130 PLN (about 30 EUR), the hall was almost full, both seated and standing areas. It was pretty much the same in 2014. For the IW&B tour, when Live Nation took over organizing the gig, prices went up by over 100% and tickets weren't selling that good. They tried to manage by offering special discounts the closer it got to the show. Ultimately, they've set up seats in front of the stage just to make the place look like it's full. But the attendance was nowhere near 2011 or 2014.
In the meantime, they've played a couple of other places. In 2012 in Poznan, during the 2nd leg of ADTOE tour, the attendance was still great. In 2014 they've played in Gdansk just a few months after Katowice show. This one was ok, though the venue was much smaller.
There are people who won't attend the 2nd leg to see the same show, so yeah, some changes to the setlists might help. But I think the outrageous price increase is the main reason for attendance getting lower. An equivalent of 30-40 EUR was what most people could afford, but having to pay 70-80 EUR in a country where the average wage is 700 EUR - more and more people pass.
In the meantime, the tickets for Devin's Empath Tour go for 25 EUR, so there you have it.
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In the meantime, the tickets for Devin's Empath Tour go for 25 EUR, so there you have it.
I just saw The Who in Seattle less than a month ago. I got tickets at the venue box office for $40 each. That's the way it should be.
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In the meantime, the tickets for Devin's Empath Tour go for 25 EUR, so there you have it.
I just saw The Who in Seattle less than a month ago. I got tickets at the venue box office for $40 each. That's the way it should be.
I got a ticket for The Who on Groupon for $27.00 in LA, last month. Good show. Best show I have ever seen where the main guys are in their mid-70s. I think I can safely say that, unless I somehow end up seeing Paul McCartney.
As for Steven Wilson, I'm looking at setlist.fm and it looks like when Porcupine Tree came to SoCal, they were playing venues like the City National Grove of Anaheim, Club Nokia, the old LA House of Blues, and The Wiltern, which generally holds around 1,000-2,000. Steven Wilson, as a solo artist, has played these places as well. England is a different story as Steven Wilson is doing two arena shows, next year, including the O2 Arena. The largest arena in London which can hold up to 20k and he's off the backs of selling out three shows at the Royal Albert Hall last year. DT, in comparison, the biggest venue they ever played in London was Wembley Arena (around 13k people) and I think I've read that they closed certain sections of it, so DT wasn't played to full capacity even in the biggest venue they have played in London.
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During the last decade, DT frequently played in Spodek, Katowice when visiting Poland - 2011, 2014 and 2017. The Hall's capacity is 11,5k, though only half of the seats are available when the stage and other show infrastructure is setup. In 2011 I bought a ticket for 130 PLN (about 30 EUR), the hall was almost full, both seated and standing areas. It was pretty much the same in 2014. For the IW&B tour, when Live Nation took over organizing the gig, prices went up by over 100% and tickets weren't selling that good. They tried to manage by offering special discounts the closer it got to the show. Ultimately, they've set up seats in front of the stage just to make the place look like it's full. But the attendance was nowhere near 2011 or 2014.
In the meantime, they've played a couple of other places. In 2012 in Poznan, during the 2nd leg of ADTOE tour, the attendance was still great. In 2014 they've played in Gdansk just a few months after Katowice show. This one was ok, though the venue was much smaller.
There are people who won't attend the 2nd leg to see the same show, so yeah, some changes to the setlists might help. But I think the outrageous price increase is the main reason for attendance getting lower. An equivalent of 30-40 EUR was what most people could afford, but having to pay 70-80 EUR in a country where the average wage is 700 EUR - more and more people pass.
In the meantime, the tickets for Devin's Empath Tour go for 25 EUR, so there you have it.
I know in 2009-2010 when DT was on top they almost filley Wembley Arena and Germany and Italia as well
eks: Oslo Spectrum Norway it was 6500, almost sold out.
Now max 4000
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In Sweden they used to play at Hovet a 9000 capacity arena from 2002 to 2012. It always felt too big though.
In 2014 they played the 3.400 capacity Annexet
In 2016 they played the 1.644 capacity Circus (wonderful theater) twice
In 2017 they played the 3.500 capacity Fryshuset Arenan, but they also played in Malmö and Gothenburgh
In 2020 they will again play the wonderful Circus twice (1.644)
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I'm thinking they lose a little bit with every big change and gain a little bit less than they lose. Whoever was gone from the fandom when MP was gone likely isn't coming back, ditto for those who love prog but haven't cared about DT since ToT. People were probably gone from the TA tour temporarily, because they aren't interested in hearing that album. The "old guard" here isn't retiring from concerts any time soon it seems (you fogeys are awesome), but they might start skipping every other tour because of the rising ticket costs.
What might boost DT's tour attendance and enthusiasm is bringing the show to people who haven't seen it and would like to. The problem with that is that they aren't too interested in bridging the gap between their existing markets. I have been a fan for 10 years, and they never came closer to me than a 7-hour drive. There's probably a lot of people even in the USA who are in a similar boat, or have been for the past few years. Also, with MM, they're slowly leaning into the reputation of a band who stands there, reproduces what they did on the CD, thanks the audience and ends the show. albeit with a great production, sound, video, effects, etc. Prog fans, the ones who never miss a single tour of a great band, will always take some jamming over a perfect show.
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I'm thinking they lose a little bit with every big change and gain a little bit less than they lose. Whoever was gone from the fandom when MP was gone likely isn't coming back, ditto for those who love prog but haven't cared about DT since ToT. People were probably gone from the TA tour temporarily, because they aren't interested in hearing that album. The "old guard" here isn't retiring from concerts any time soon it seems (you fogeys are awesome), but they might start skipping every other tour because of the rising ticket costs.
What might boost DT's tour attendance and enthusiasm is bringing the show to people who haven't seen it and would like to. The problem with that is that they aren't too interested in bridging the gap between their existing markets. I have been a fan for 10 years, and they never came closer to me than a 7-hour drive. There's probably a lot of people even in the USA who are in a similar boat, or have been for the past few years. Also, with MM, they're slowly leaning into the reputation of a band who stands there, reproduces what they did on the CD, thanks the audience and ends the show. albeit with a great production, sound, video, effects, etc. Prog fans, the ones who never miss a single tour of a great band, will always take some jamming over a perfect show.
Let me start by saying that I am only talking about myself, I know it's my opinion, and I'm not suggesting that somehow I'm correct or all the facts support me. It's an IMPRESSION I have.
That's me. I'm somewhere in the 300's of concerts seen, I'm sort of on my bucket list leg of the trip, meaning, I'm driving two hours into New York to see things that I may never see again - Gene Simmons solo in a club; Shattered Fortress; Vivian Campbell in a 150 seat wedding banquet facility; Micheal Schenker with 19 singers all on stage. I see about a show or two a month on average, so I'm trying not to drop $150 each show (I average around $50, if I was to guess). I understand that it's not necessarily indicative, but The Astonishing - which I put in the "might not see again", ala The Lamb by Genesis or Tales by Yes - was that way. Play your shit, don't stray too much from the libretto, don't stand up, wave a lot, go home.
Based on things that some have said - Lethean for one - I'm likely going to go again and give it a fair try, if the planets align, but the gymnastics event that is some of MM's drumming isn't enough to get me to fork over the $$, when the alternative is two hours of Rick Wakeman playing piano and reminiscing, or seeing Flying Colors, well, fly (by the seat of their pants) in one of their relatively rare concert appearances. Other than, say, The Musical Box (don't ask me why; it's just enjoyable for me, and I get to see them for like $35 in a theater that I have a membership in, so I can usually get first couple rows) and maybe Maiden, I don't have "every tour" bands anymore.
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I can understand why honestly. They're doing a LOT of things wrong. They had a pretty good tour & fan engagement during the 2011 era where they rotated some songs, but in general since 2009 they're playing mostly the same songs every show during a tour or at least during a leg. The performance of the songs is not surprising anymore, fans used to talk about different performances of a specific solo on every show, now it's the same to a T. There hasn't been a DVD in almost 6 years. LaBrie, as much as I love him, used to do fun stuff with his vocal performances, now he struggles to deliver a passable performance even in new songs and he doesn't make the necessary vocal alterations (barring some songs from I&W) to deliver a tolerable performance.
Basically, no set surprises, no performance surprises, no engagement with fans through film/audio release from shows, no reason to prefer the vocal nor the instrumental version of a live song over the studio. Why would fans be interested in going to shows besides "Hey, let's see the guys play some songs again"?
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Everyone knows my stance on the static setlists that we've been seeing, and I do think that it is a part of the reason why the turn outs have been lower. But based on a lot of the comments in this thread, it's clear that the ticket prices are also playing a roll. They must be commanding a fairly high guarantee for each show, and I would imagine that's a big part of why ticket prices have been higher. But I also imagine that it's part of the reason why some parts of the world - for instance the northwest and southeast parts of the US - are neglected on the tour. It's interesting that the southeast has gotten much better representation on this tour, but that hasn't been the case in the past.
For this particular tour, I think one thing that they should have done differently was tour behind d/t and not to have celebrated the SFaM anniversary until the end of the year, when the album actually was released. Then once the anniversary hit, start focusing on that. They could've done the first leg of the North American tour as they did but with a setlist focused on d/t and other catalog songs. Do the European festival run of shows, but without all the bogus support bands at shows that weren't truly festivals - do full Evening With shows at those shows with the same or similar setlist as in the first NA leg. Then do tours through Asia/Oceania and South America somewhere between October and December, now with the setlist focused on SFaM (since they usually only do one tour through those territories on any given album cycle) and finally return to North America and Europe with the SFaM-centric setlist in early 2020, trying to hit more cities than they did on the first tours through those territories, including some of the secondary markets not visited the first time around.
Of course I'm armchair quarterbacking, but I think it makes far greater sense than the way they have done things on this tour. I'd be willing to bet they have more fans that would go to see them a second time if they would have gone this route, and even more if they would've brought back the rotating or at least alternating setlists (one song being alternated isn't enough, IMO).
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I don’t think static setlist have any effect on ticket sales.
DT has been touring ALOT. They’ve hit my small market area 3 times in 5 years. And I’m in a city that doesn’t get hit by every leg. Even as a super fan, that seems like a lot of shows. Add to that the increasing costs of tickets, they may be spreading themselves thin with the constant touring for the casual DT fan (if such a thing exists).
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I think people are wildly overstating the impact static setlists would have on the general public. The hardcore fan base is NOT a majority of concert attendees. Heck, I'd wager they're not even in the 25% of the audience at a concert. My experience is that most people who are attending ANY rock / metal concert do it because they're a fan of music, and like the band, not because they're hardcore fans of the band they're seeing. And -that- audience do not care whether the band played the same songs in a different city they went to the night before, because -that- audience didn't see -that- show.
Of course Setlist Scotty has some issues with static setlists, as it's made his "job" redundant and boring ;)
DT has been touring a lot more intensely in certain areas the past 5 years. I've seen them 12 times the past 5 years without even having to travel outside for Scandinavia, and before that I saw them every other year, which amounts to 8 times since 1998.
I'd say it's a combination of high activity in a increasingly saturated marked, not only from DT itself, but every other active band on the planet. I know for myself that I've had to weed out the interesting bands to a much higher degree than before, and simply not attend concerts I previously would've not hesitated going to, just because there's just too much! There's also many more bands out there now than there ever was before, and that doesn't help with the saturation.
And, of course, DT never reached the level of "legendary" that bands like Metallica and Iron Maiden are, who can sell out stadiums to people just due to their name. And DT isn't old enough to fully reach that nostalgia level of impact where people will turn up "just to catch a glimpse of the artist before they are gone", like you get with Yes or other 70s prog/rock acts that are still touring.
But has DT's popularity decreased? Of course, that has also been a factor. DT used to have a big portion of uptake of younger generations entering the fanbase, but this kinda stopped around 2007 or so. It's the same "problem" that the guitar makers are seeing - younger generations are simply not as interested in rock music, so the guitar is actually quite struggling with dwindling sales. So when young people no longer get turned on to DT, and the older people get increasingly disinterested, we end up with decreasing popularity. But at the same time, we (Dream Theater World) has seen more activity for the fan club than I ever saw with the old style fan clubs...
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I don’t think static setlist have any effect on ticket sales.
I think people are wildly overstating the impact static setlists would have on the general public.
I agree with both of you.
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I don’t think static setlist have any effect on ticket sales.
I think people are wildly overstating the impact static setlists would have on the general public.
I agree with both of you.
I agree with all three of you.
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I don’t think static setlist have any effect on ticket sales.
I think people are wildly overstating the impact static setlists would have on the general public.
I agree with both of you.
I agree with all three of you.
Yeah, I totally agree with this. I think it's just a very vocal minority. Even 1 % is too high a number I think.
There is just not hundreds of people at every DT show who have been to multiple shows.
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While I don't disagree that the number of people that have stopped going solely because of static setlists is likely low, I think it's a mistake to isolate one variable like that. Does the average person really think that compartmentalized? I know I don't. It's a combination of things, of which one MIGHT be static setlists, and of which several might have common roots.
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I guess the question is, how are they doing financially on these tours? It must be worth it to a certain degree if they are doing second legs and returning to the same cities.
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I guess the question is, how are they doing financially on these tours? It must be worth it to a certain degree if they are doing second legs and returning to the same cities.
This is my understanding of how this works.
Dream Theater get paid a fixed price by the promotors (they say how much they want). It's the promotors who will incur losses if attendance is too low.
Of course if attendance is low merch sales will be lower so the band will hurt a bit financially.
Promotors will be less likely too book them on subsequent tours if sales are low.
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I guess the question is, how are they doing financially on these tours? It must be worth it to a certain degree if they are doing second legs and returning to the same cities.
This is my understanding of how this works.
Dream Theater get paid a fixed price by the promotors (they say how much they want). It's the promotors who will incur losses if attendance is too low.
Of course if attendance is low merch sales will be lower so the band will hurt a bit financially.
Promotors will be less likely too book them on subsequent tours if sales are low.
Higher prices could be a reflection on this from promoters worried about taking a hit. Not sure, I wouldn't know, but seems plausible. I'm sure DT is not struggling to make money but if they promoters are, that could be an issue in the future. It looked like DT recovered very well from the poor second TA leg (followed up with well selling I&W&B and the first leg of this tour) but a second poorly attended leg might have more impact. Like I said, I wouldn't know, just speculating here. We'll see what happens when they come around again.
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Promotors will be less likely too book them on subsequent tours if sales are low.
Well, if the sales are too low, maybe promoters should consider lower the prices of tickets. Then again, they probably have the resource tools to think that selling 1,500 tickets at $60.00 a pop on average is better than selling 2,000 tickets at around $40.00 a pop. I'm always about wanting to see bands play in front of packed crowds night after night and ticket prices being what they are for DT is hurting that, especially when these shows nowadays are assigned seats (which means the front row seats are just going to ridiculous prices few people want to pay on the regular).
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There is just not hundreds of people at every DT show who have been to multiple shows.
But in the old days, there actually were.
I remember on one of the UK tours I was on a train travelling from one show to the next, and the train was full of people wearing DT shirts who were doing the same as me...
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Everyone knows my stance on the static setlists that we've been seeing, and I do think that it is a part of the reason why the turn outs have been lower. But based on a lot of the comments in this thread, it's clear that the ticket prices are also playing a roll. They must be commanding a fairly high guarantee for each show, and I would imagine that's a big part of why ticket prices have been higher. But I also imagine that it's part of the reason why some parts of the world - for instance the northwest and southeast parts of the US - are neglected on the tour. It's interesting that the southeast has gotten much better representation on this tour, but that hasn't been the case in the past.
It's interesting that they're writing off the PNW as they're now playing Texas quite regularly. It used to be that we always got skipped unless there was a package deal or something. Honestly, I don't know what to make of their business model. They're definitely charging an arm and a leg down here (relative to normal Texas prices), but they are coming (or already came) back through Texas on their second leg. We used to be out of range. Whereas they presumably can't afford to play Seattle anymore.
Also, a big part of their ticket prices is the large show they're touring with. Personally, I'd prefer they ditch it and worry about the music. Frankly, the whole thing's become a little too TSO for my taste. A gig where they didn't have their Blinding Light Show and just came out and jammed would be a nice thing to see. At this point I think it's a necessary crutch, though.
I don’t think static setlist have any effect on ticket sales.
My friends and I are proof that you're wrong. If you want to argue that it doesn't have a huge effect then that's fine. I probably agree. There are definitely plenty of people that would travel to hit 3 shows in Texas, though, and at this point there's just no reason to bother. Same would apply all over PA, NJ, NY, MA, as well. And it goes beyond just the setlist. There's really no variation between shows at all. I've seen plenty of bands on consecutive nights and there's normally a different vibe from one to the next. Not with DT, though. If you see DT once you've seen the tour.
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And then there are the new-ish fans like me (since 2016), that just want to see them as much as possible. I will have seen this tour 4 times. Just when I start thinking to myself "I wonder if I will enjoy seeing this Again", I go and love every minute! The pricing doesn't seem like an issue from my perspective. The other concerts I go to are just as pricey if not more. I shelled out hundreds of dollars for Metallica, and Iron Maiden. Even older bands Bush, Live, Megadeth and the Scorpions were more $$. I paid about the same for Kamelot and Queensryche. Of course I would love different set-lists, but just like I listen to a favorite song or album over and over, I enjoy repeating DT concerts.
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I don’t think static setlist have any effect on ticket sales.
My friends and I are proof that you're wrong. If you want to argue that it doesn't have a huge effect then that's fine. I probably agree. There are definitely plenty of people that would travel to hit 3 shows in Texas, though, and at this point there's just no reason to bother. Same would apply all over PA, NJ, NY, MA, as well. And it goes beyond just the setlist. There's really no variation between shows at all. I've seen plenty of bands on consecutive nights and there's normally a different vibe from one to the next. Not with DT, though. If you see DT once you've seen the tour.
I think that relates to what was said on the "Playing to a click" thread. I think part of it is that they have not really gained new fans in the past 7-8 years because they haven't shared the stage with other bands. I know this might be overlooked but I think having only "Evening with" shows for the past 3 albums, while also doing anniversary tours is drawing in the same fan base, while losing some and gaining practically none.
Besides the European festivals, the last time DT shared a stage with other bands was for ADTOE tour (if im not mistaken), which limits their exposure for new fans.
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Pricing can't be that big of a deal, at least here in the USA. I have been consistently able to get good seats over the last 4 years in the $45 dollar range (before TM fees, of course). There are a lot of shittier bands that charge a lot more than that.
If you're normally paying less than that for concerts, it would have to be for smaller acts, smaller/different venues, or both. Right?
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I dunno, I just saw The Who and got in for $40 at the venue box office.
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The Who are a shell of themselves that are nothing more than a Who cover band, kind of like Van Halen. I know that sounds harsh but I would rather spend 200.00 to see DT than 40.00 to see the Who or VH.
That said, the venues DT chooses to perform at is probably a little pricey to book. I mean, what do you think the Chicago Theater costs? I would love to know those logistics...
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Pricing can't be that big of a deal, at least here in the USA. I have been consistently able to get good seats over the last 4 years in the $45 dollar range (before TM fees, of course). There are a lot of shittier bands that charge a lot more than that.
If you're normally paying less than that for concerts, it would have to be for smaller acts, smaller/different venues, or both. Right?
Nah, down here I think we shelled out just over a hundred bucks for good DT seats. That's not Roger Waters money, but it's still way out of range for a band selling 1200 tickets. I definitely consider them one of the pricier bands I tend to see, and it seems every year it's a little more. And something else to consider is that larger bands will play venues with more tiers to choose from. You could pay anywhere from 25-150 to see Maiden at the local shed. DT will generally only have one or two tiers in the 50-100 range.
I don’t think static setlist have any effect on ticket sales.
My friends and I are proof that you're wrong. If you want to argue that it doesn't have a huge effect then that's fine. I probably agree. There are definitely plenty of people that would travel to hit 3 shows in Texas, though, and at this point there's just no reason to bother. Same would apply all over PA, NJ, NY, MA, as well. And it goes beyond just the setlist. There's really no variation between shows at all. I've seen plenty of bands on consecutive nights and there's normally a different vibe from one to the next. Not with DT, though. If you see DT once you've seen the tour.
I think that relates to what was said on the "Playing to a click" thread. I think part of it is that they have not really gained new fans in the past 7-8 years because they haven't shared the stage with other bands. I know this might be overlooked but I think having only "Evening with" shows for the past 3 albums, while also doing anniversary tours is drawing in the same fan base, while losing some and gaining practically none.
Besides the European festivals, the last time DT shared a stage with other bands was for ADTOE tour (if im not mistaken), which limits their exposure for new fans.
I didn't know there was a "click" thread, I don't bother with the DT threads all that often, but I've been railing bout it since they started with that nonsense. Not that they care, but it's cost them several tickets that I didn't buy. Like I said, you see one show and you've seen the entire tour.
I disagree about them playing with other bands, though. I doubt opening for Maiden gained them that many fans. To be honest, I've always thought of seeing a band live as a poor way to get into their music, and with DT it'd likely turn me off of them. They're not exciting if you don't know every scale they're supposed to play, and of course there's the whole "but the singer" thing. I doubt people who aren't familiar with them are going to see them play TDEN and then rush out to buy their catalog. It might help with ticket sales, but not by much. Touring with Megadeth sold more tickets, but they were still playing the same venue, and they still didn't sell it out. Before that I saw them with both Queensryche and Satriani and neither sold anymore tickets than an evening with show. Whereas I think the fans prefer the extended format. I certainly do. Given a choice between 90 minutes playing with Satriani, or 3 hours by themselves, the latter is a no-brainer for me. So I doubt the evening with format is hurting them much, but it is making the fans more inclined to see them.
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The Who are a shell of themselves that are nothing more than a Who cover band, kind of like Van Halen. I know that sounds harsh but I would rather spend 200.00 to see DT than 40.00 to see the Who or VH.
That said, the venues DT chooses to perform at is probably a little pricey to book. I mean, what do you think the Chicago Theater costs? I would love to know those logistics...
I completely disagree with that statement. The Who are still a world class band selling out arenas and even playing stadiums. They got Pete Townshend and Rodger Daltry still in top form, Zach Starzky (Ringo Stars son) on the drums, who by the way is a fantastic drummer! They also have top notch musicians in their band and they had a full stringed and brass orchestra on this current tour. The Who has a wayyy bigger draw than Dream Theater and could still charge a lot of money for their shows if they want to, but they don't want to gouge their fans.
I myself am more of a DT fan, but The Who is still very relevant and playing kick-ass concerts! Cover band? Whatever! :lol
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@El Barto. I understand what you are saying, but I will give you an example. Coheed and Cambria toured with Mastodon over the summer. These are two bands I love and would go see any chance I have. My partner went with me because she is also a huge Coheed fan but knew nothing about Mastodon. After the show, she's been listening to mastodon more frequently than I do (and same for her friend that came with us as well). That's at least 2 new fans from 1 show, I'm sure they were more from that show and even more from the entire tour. Also, I am sure it went the other way around as well for people that went to the show for Mastodon, but enjoyed Coheed's music as well.
I know DT is a special case because you have to digest their music a lot more than Coheed or Mastodon, but having a co-headlining show with another band is not going to hurt their fan-base IMO.
I love the Evening with shows because it means more DT for us the fans, and I remember the last time I saw them sharing the stage with someone else I was disappointed at how short the show was (2009 with Zappa plays Zappa and Bigelf), but they are not exposing themselves.
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I think with TOT and the early Roadrunner albums, Dream Theater shifted their demographic a bit (by design I think) and I started to see younger metal fans at shows in addition to the prog types. Since MP’s departure, DT have moved away from the overtly metal stuff and back towards their prog side so they’ve lost some of those fans picked up in the mid to late 2000’s. They’re back to their more core audience but still much bigger venues than in the pre SFAM days. The new album is their most metal album for a while but they have toured a lot recently and they are also playing a big prog concept album in full so it will be difficult to get the metal kids back, if they even want to. I think they’ve reached a comfortable level where they make a good living doing music they enjoy and the drop in numbers is probably offset by the higher prices.
As for Steven Wilson, can only speak for the U.K. but he is massively more popular and more respected as a solo artist than PT ever were. That’s why he’s never been tempted to go back plus his live band is on a different level to the PT guys.
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@El Barto. I understand what you are saying, but I will give you an example. Coheed and Cambria toured with Mastodon over the summer. These are two bands I love and would go see any chance I have. My partner went with me because she is also a huge Coheed fan but knew nothing about Mastodon. After the show, she's been listening to mastodon more frequently than I do (and same for her friend that came with us as well). That's at least 2 new fans from 1 show, I'm sure they were more from that show and even more from the entire tour. Also, I am sure it went the other way around as well for people that went to the show for Mastodon, but enjoyed Coheed's music as well.
I know DT is a special case because you have to digest their music a lot more than Coheed or Mastodon, but having a co-headlining show with another band is not going to hurt their fan-base IMO.
I love the Evening with shows because it means more DT for us the fans, and I remember the last time I saw them sharing the stage with someone else I was disappointed at how short the show was (2009 with Zappa plays Zappa and Bigelf), but they are not exposing themselves.
I think you've kind of hit on the point there. There are bands that I became a fan of after seeing them live. That tends to happen because they're great live bands, and their music is well suited for the live format. I don't think either really applies to DT (from the perspective of a non-fanboy). Like you said, there's a lot to digest, as well as a, let's say, 'polarizing' singer. I'd actually be real curious to know how man Yes and Maiden fans ever bothered to go see DT on their own after being exposed to them as openers. I'd guess more Yes fans, but it's probably not a whole lot either way.
Ironically, I started listening to Fate's Warning after seeing them open for DT. Based largely on discovering that Ray Alder was a great singer. The reverse would definitely not have happened in my case.
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Even in the days of "rotating setlists", realistically you'd have two base setlists with approx 14 songs in each, and maybe a couple of them were wildcards (such as cover songs and whatnot). It's not like it was completely random what you'd get. Some songs would be played every night (typically the latest single), and some would be adjusted based on whether it'd been overplayed in that city...
And one way to "solve" this was to do shitty medleys...
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@El Barto. I understand what you are saying, but I will give you an example. Coheed and Cambria toured with Mastodon over the summer. These are two bands I love and would go see any chance I have. My partner went with me because she is also a huge Coheed fan but knew nothing about Mastodon. After the show, she's been listening to mastodon more frequently than I do (and same for her friend that came with us as well). That's at least 2 new fans from 1 show, I'm sure they were more from that show and even more from the entire tour. Also, I am sure it went the other way around as well for people that went to the show for Mastodon, but enjoyed Coheed's music as well.
I know DT is a special case because you have to digest their music a lot more than Coheed or Mastodon, but having a co-headlining show with another band is not going to hurt their fan-base IMO.
I love the Evening with shows because it means more DT for us the fans, and I remember the last time I saw them sharing the stage with someone else I was disappointed at how short the show was (2009 with Zappa plays Zappa and Bigelf), but they are not exposing themselves.
I think you've kind of hit on the point there. There are bands that I became a fan of after seeing them live. That tends to happen because they're great live bands, and their music is well suited for the live format. I don't think either really applies to DT (from the perspective of a non-fanboy). Like you said, there's a lot to digest, as well as a, let's say, 'polarizing' singer. I'd actually be real curious to know how man Yes and Maiden fans ever bothered to go see DT on their own after being exposed to them as openers. I'd guess more Yes fans, but it's probably not a whole lot either way.
I became a fan of Dream Theater after seeing them live...also opening for Iron Maiden.
There's a great boot of DT opening for Maiden at MSG. That tour's setlist, while on the surface to DT fans looked pretty ordinary, was brilliantly constructed to have the intensity from each song build upon the previous one. In said boot, you can hear a coupe of fans, who were clearly not DT fans, progressively getting more and more into it.
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The last few DT shows I've been to, I enjoyed 'em, sure. But I bought tickets more on some sort of Pavlovian response to the fact they were touring than because I really needed to see the band again. I haven't got the same rush of excitement I used to get. In fact, if they weren't playing SFAM this time round, I'd probably give 'em a miss. And once I've skipped one tour, well, I guess I'm done all together.
Actually, come to think of it, the best shows I've seen in the MM era were Leeds in 2011 and Paris in 2017, both were great shows with a ton of atmosphere and energy. Both were also the only 2 standing shows I've seen since MM joined - everything else has been seated, soulless and with less atmosphere than the moon.
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As for Steven Wilson, can only speak for the U.K. but he is massively more popular and more respected as a solo artist than PT ever were. That’s why he’s never been tempted to go back plus his live band is on a different level to the PT guys.
Maybe, but I don't think Steven Wilson's artistic decisions are driven by money above all else. For example, he didn't disband Porcupine Tree to make more money; he disbanded Porcupine Tree because he wanted the freedom to make the kind of music he wanted to without worrying that fellow bandmates might not like the direction. Even though he was still the main creative force in PT, it had become a band where the input and feedback of the other members mattered, and Wilson wants to be in total control of his creative direction, so he disbanded the band and is now a solo artist who can do whatever he wants on his records. To have that kind of freedom, and to be able to make a good living off it which he presumably does, it someone most musicians strive for, but only a small percentage achieve.
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and with less atmosphere than the moon.
Holy shit, that's an awesome statement. 10/10 I will use it repeatedly.
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As for Steven Wilson, can only speak for the U.K. but he is massively more popular and more respected as a solo artist than PT ever were. That’s why he’s never been tempted to go back plus his live band is on a different level to the PT guys.
Maybe, but I don't think Steven Wilson's artistic decisions are driven by money above all else. For example, he didn't disband Porcupine Tree to make more money; he disbanded Porcupine Tree because he wanted the freedom to make the kind of music he wanted to without worrying that fellow bandmates might not like the direction. Even though he was still the main creative force in PT, it had become a band where the input and feedback of the other members mattered, and Wilson wants to be in total control of his creative direction, so he disbanded the band and is now a solo artist who can do whatever he wants on his records. To have that kind of freedom, and to be able to make a good living off it which he presumably does, it someone most musicians strive for, but only a small percentage achieve.
Oh absolutely, I’m not suggesting his decision to go alone was motivated by money, not at all. Just saying that, had his solo career struggled, he may have been more tempted to go back to his established band. As it is, he now has sole creative control, is more successful than ever and is playing with the cream of the crop musicians so he has zero reason to go back to Porcupine Tree.
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But has DT's popularity decreased? Of course, that has also been a factor. DT used to have a big portion of uptake of younger generations entering the fanbase, but this kinda stopped around 2007 or so. It's the same "problem" that the guitar makers are seeing - younger generations are simply not as interested in rock music, so the guitar is actually quite struggling with dwindling sales.
Yup, I think this is true and applies to a lot of rock and metal at the moment.
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Really? There seems to be more bands than ever now.
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Really? There seems to be more bands than ever now.
And none of them are making a living with it :-X
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Well, my comment was after reading this..
- younger generations are simply not as interested in rock music,
…it wasn't so much about being succesful.
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Well, my comment was after reading this..
- younger generations are simply not as interested in rock music,
…it wasn't so much about being succesful.
They aren't as succesful because younger generations aren't not as interested in rock music. There's not enough demand.
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I got that. But my point was to me, there are many bands as ever before, successful or not. Bandcamp, Spotify, etc...
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Even in the days of "rotating setlists", realistically you'd have two base setlists with approx 14 songs in each, and maybe a couple of them were wildcards (such as cover songs and whatnot). It's not like it was completely random what you'd get. Some songs would be played every night (typically the latest single), and some would be adjusted based on whether it'd been overplayed in that city...
And one way to "solve" this was to do shitty medleys...
It would be far more variable than that. Dallas/Houston/Austin-San Antonio would be three unique shows and it'd be worth catching all three. In 2002 Dallas got seven songs plus 6DoIT while Austin got a full non-6D setlist with 10 different songs. They'd pull the same thing in other close markets. This would also allow them to make sure you could hear stuff you didn't get to hear on the last tour each time they came through, which was just as cool.
Now, not only are the setlists the same but the songs are the same. Home will be 12:52 long in Dallas, in Houston, and in Austin. Running two seconds longer would require some some of catastrophe. The only hope for seeing any sort of variation would be for LaBrie's voice to croak, or see him fall of the stage or something. That ain't worth the drive.
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Now, not only are the setlists the same but the songs are the same. Home will be 12:52 long in Dallas, in Houston, and in Austin. Running two seconds longer would require some some of catastrophe. The only hope for seeing any sort of variation would be for LaBrie's voice to croak, or see him fall of the stage or something. That ain't worth the drive.
That is the drawback to playing with a click. I am fine with them going with static (or mostly static) set lists, but playing to a click really does made it nearly impossible to be able to tell one show from the other musically speaking, JLB's vocals notwithstanding of course.
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Now, not only are the setlists the same but the songs are the same. Home will be 12:52 long in Dallas, in Houston, and in Austin. Running two seconds longer would require some some of catastrophe. The only hope for seeing any sort of variation would be for LaBrie's voice to croak, or see him fall of the stage or something. That ain't worth the drive.
That is the drawback to playing with a click. I am fine with them going with static (or mostly static) set lists, but playing to a click really does made it nearly impossible to be able to tell one show from the other musically speaking, JLB's vocals notwithstanding of course.
On the other hand, playing to a click makes it possible to have a much richer visual show. Lights and video syncing with the music.
Some of us really like a great visual show too.
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Now, not only are the setlists the same but the songs are the same. Home will be 12:52 long in Dallas, in Houston, and in Austin. Running two seconds longer would require some some of catastrophe. The only hope for seeing any sort of variation would be for LaBrie's voice to croak, or see him fall of the stage or something. That ain't worth the drive.
:lol
On the other hand, playing to a click makes it possible to have a much richer visual show. Lights and video syncing with the music.
Some of us really like a great visual show too.
I guess, but Dream Theater shows have morphed from a Rock Concert to a Performance. If I'm going to see a band play live, I want me a Rock Concert.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, here, but Iron Maiden doesn't play to a click track live, and yet... that's the most intense, well-oiled performance I've seen in a long time and it's ALSO a rock concert. They also play an in-concrete, rock solid static setlist, and yet... it never felt programmed or rote or, well, static (and if you listen to boots and live clips, even Bruce's raps are fairly static with only minor variations from night to night, and yet it never feels stale. And while Maiden isn't quite the level of musicianship as DT, Nicko, Steve, Dave... no slouches, and some of the material is challenging to play at tempo. I've seen DT three times, and I have to be convinced to see them again. I've seen Maiden eight times and I'll have to be convinced NOT to see them at this point.
I'm not sure what the ultimate point is here, other than there are no rules and there are no one variables that control this. It's a package, a vibe.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, here, but Iron Maiden doesn't play to a click track live, and yet... that's the most intense, well-oiled performance I've seen in a long time and it's ALSO a rock concert. They also play an in-concrete, rock solid static setlist, and yet... it never felt programmed or rote or, well, static (and if you listen to boots and live clips, even Bruce's raps are fairly static with only minor variations from night to night, and yet it never feels stale. And while Maiden isn't quite the level of musicianship as DT, Nicko, Steve, Dave... no slouches, and some of the material is challenging to play at tempo. I've seen DT three times, and I have to be convinced to see them again. I've seen Maiden eight times and I'll have to be convinced NOT to see them at this point.
I'm not sure what the ultimate point is here, other than there are no rules and there are no one variables that control this. It's a package, a vibe.
You guys are going to kill me for this, but... I always found the live performances of Iron Maiden (I have only seen them on video) not very tight, but kinda all over the place and -I guess there are many Maiden fans here, but dare I say it- sloppy? Also, their arrangements sound overloaded to me because of the three guitars... That is part of the reason why I don't like Iron Maiden. Ok you may slay me now
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Now, not only are the setlists the same but the songs are the same. Home will be 12:52 long in Dallas, in Houston, and in Austin. Running two seconds longer would require some some of catastrophe. The only hope for seeing any sort of variation would be for LaBrie's voice to croak, or see him fall of the stage or something. That ain't worth the drive.
That is the drawback to playing with a click. I am fine with them going with static (or mostly static) set lists, but playing to a click really does made it nearly impossible to be able to tell one show from the other musically speaking, JLB's vocals notwithstanding of course.
On the other hand, playing to a click makes it possible to have a much richer visual show. Lights and video syncing with the music.
Some of us really like a great visual show too.
That can easily be done without playing to a click. Rush did it for decades, and had arguably a more advanced light and video set-up than Dream Theater does.
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Steven Wilson plays with a click and I don't see anyone complaining...
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Now, not only are the setlists the same but the songs are the same. Home will be 12:52 long in Dallas, in Houston, and in Austin. Running two seconds longer would require some some of catastrophe. The only hope for seeing any sort of variation would be for LaBrie's voice to croak, or see him fall of the stage or something. That ain't worth the drive.
That is the drawback to playing with a click. I am fine with them going with static (or mostly static) set lists, but playing to a click really does made it nearly impossible to be able to tell one show from the other musically speaking, JLB's vocals notwithstanding of course.
On the other hand, playing to a click makes it possible to have a much richer visual show. Lights and video syncing with the music.
Some of us really like a great visual show too.
That can easily be done without playing to a click. Rush did it for decades, and had arguably a more advanced light and video set-up than Dream Theater does.
Nobody's ever put on a better stage and lighting display than Floyd in 94/95, and their lighting was run on the fly. Specifically so they could extend songs if they desired. If you don't need to sequence this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dB6MQlFLu8), you damn sure don't need DT's show sequenced. Also, DT's lighting man was very good.
You guys are going to kill me for this, but... I always found the live performances of Iron Maiden (I have only seen them on video) not very tight, but kinda all over the place and -I guess there are many Maiden fans here, but dare I say it- sloppy? Also, their arrangements sound overloaded to me because of the three guitars... That is part of the reason why I don't like Iron Maiden. Ok you may slay me now
I wouldn't disagree with this at all. There's something to be said for the human element, though. Maiden puts on a rock concert. It looks like it. It sounds like it. It feels like it. Dream Theater puts on a presentation that honestly wouldn't be much different if it were on a movie screen. I'd rather see a live band like Maiden, warts and all, than the Chuck E. Cheese animatronic show that DT has become.
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Nobody's ever put on a better stage and lighting display than Floyd in 94/95, and their lighting was run on the fly. Specifically so they could extend songs if they desired. If you don't need to sequence this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dB6MQlFLu8), you damn sure don't need DT's show sequenced.
As someone who saw Pink Floyd in 1994, I approve of this post above. :tup :tup
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Nobody's ever put on a better stage and lighting display than Floyd in 94/95, and their lighting was run on the fly. Specifically so they could extend songs if they desired. If you don't need to sequence this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dB6MQlFLu8), you damn sure don't need DT's show sequenced.
As someone who saw Pink Floyd in 1994, I approve of this post above. :tup :tup
I would think Pink Floyd music would be easier to put lights to (on the fly) without a click as their music is more straightforward and moves at slower pace.
That being said, I wish DT would ditch the click and have more fun putting on a great show. The lights don't have to be perfect. I would also say ditch the screens, but still have good lighting like on the IAWAB tour.
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The lights don't have to be perfect.
So true. Who gives a crap if the lights are or are not in perfect sync with the music throughout a 2 hour show by a band who prides themselves on their songwriting and musicianship?
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The lights don't have to be perfect.
So true. Who gives a crap if the lights are or are not in perfect sync with the music throughout a 2 hour show by a band who prides themselves on their songwriting and musicianship?
When I saw Iron Maiden almost three months ago, I'm pretty sure they weren't playing to a click track yet their light show was fantastic! They definitely pride themselves on song writing an musicianship. Same goes for BOSTON and YES, they don't play to a click either..
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To be fair, Yes could not play with an original speed click track these days, even if they wanted to.
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Side question, how do those non-click light shows work? we know from DT's DVDs that Portnoy's drum tech stands behind him and knows the songs to the point that he swings for him the mic to sing his backing vocals. I assume it's the same concept for the light people, right? people knowing enough the songs to know precisely what's gonna happen and direct the lights accordingly...?
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Precisely! The lighting guy should know the songs just as well as the band and the sound technician to be worthy of having that job. The sound guy and the lighting are pretty much members of the band..
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Yep. Back in the day, lights and sound guys for successful bands, would usually be with them for years. If they were good. The guy in charge of lights for Rush, all the way up until the final tour, had been with them since the 70s.
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Actually, there was a doc on... I think it was the Chaos In Motion DVD set where they talked about this exactly. And they had a guy that was doing the lights and backdrops, and he specifically said he had to know the setlist, know the cues and follow the band so that they could be in sync. So even DT has done it before.
Maiden, on the Live After Death and Maiden England DVDs had similar discussions. It CAN be done. There's a great clip in the History of Maiden doc where Steve and Nicko are talking about a show in Sacramento that was so hot, Steve's "boots" (sneakers?) melted and his strings were too hot to play. Nicko told the story about how there was a pool backstage, and during the interlude of Rime, he went and took a swim. He got back just as Bruce was singing the "The curse it lives on in their eyes...." part but he was soaking wet and his foot was slipping on the bass drum pedal. And he specifically said "that was all on me; that section could go on as long as we wanted, but the cue was that "dun-du-du-du-du-du-du-du-du-du-du-du-du" drum fill, and I had to wait until my roadie came back with a towel" or something along those lines before he could play it.
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Maybe they play to a click to avoid this from happening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiORe-dcjSI
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Yep. Back in the day, lights and sound guys for successful bands, would usually be with them for years. If they were good. The guy in charge of lights for Rush, all the way up until the final tour, had been with them since the 70s.
That's right, his name is Howard Ungerleider. He did some amazing light shows for Rush over the years. They even played to a click later in their career if I'm not mistaken.
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Actually, there was a doc on... I think it was the Chaos In Motion DVD set where they talked about this exactly. And they had a guy that was doing the lights and backdrops, and he specifically said he had to know the setlist, know the cues and follow the band so that they could be in sync. So even DT has done it before.
That was one of my favorite DT concerts ever. During the Progressive Nation tour in 2008, I saw them in Seattle. They stopped in the middle of the song " Take the Time" to wish James Labrie a happy birthday. Mike Portnoy threw a cake in his face with bright green icing. James' face was part green for the rest of the show. My friend that was with me captured it on video. If you go to YouTube and type in "James Labrie Birthday Cake" you can see it. JP made a guitar mistake afterwards..lol!
If they were playing to a click track, that funny incident would have never happened. I also thought that was the best light show I've seen at a DT concert.
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Maybe they play to a click to avoid this from happening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiORe-dcjSI
“hheeeyyyy!!!”
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On the other hand, playing to a click makes it possible to have a much richer visual show. Lights and video syncing with the music.
Some of us really like a great visual show too.
I guess, but Dream Theater shows have morphed from a Rock Concert to a Performance. If I'm going to see a band play live, I want me a Rock Concert.
Amen!
Your post reminds me of when a friend of mine who does remastering of bootlegs once sent me an audio clip of a DT bootleg recording. He asked me what I thought of it. I listened to it, and the only strange thing about it was that I could hear JL singing the same lyrics, but not exactly at the same time, like somehow there was a strange echo or effect on his voice. My buddy explained to me that this clip was actually the same song from 2 separate shows that he synced up and combined into one file. Because they are playing to a click there was absolutely no discernible difference between any of the instrumentation whatsoever - the only variable was JL's singing. So yeah, what DT does now is certainly far more of a rigid performance, rather than a rock concert with room to breathe.
That can easily be done without playing to a click. Rush did it for decades, and had arguably a more advanced light and video set-up than Dream Theater does.
Exactly.
Maybe they play to a click to avoid this from happening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiORe-dcjSI
Actually, had they been playing to a click in that video, it would have caused more problems, not resolved them. Because JL came in much earlier than he was supposed to, the band was able to adjust and go with it on the fly. Had they stuck to the click, the band would've either been stuck to playing as they planned with JL looking stupid until they reached the correct point OR it would've been a challenge for MP having a click in his inner ear monitors playing differently than what the band was playing when they adjusted for JL's mistake.
In particular, with MM being the precise drumming machine that he is, there is far less need of a click track now to get "consistent" performances of each song. So all the click does is take away the human element that El Barto is talking about.
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I even prefer studio recordings that are NOT done to a click. The click just makes it easier for the engineer to edit tracks and do punch-ins and outs. That way the band members don't have to redo the entire song if they flub up somewhere in the song.
With modern digital recordings, I guess click tracks save a lot of time in the editing dept.
Plus record companies want the releases to have perfect timing in the music for professionalism.
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I suppose there are advantages, but if Led Zeppelin played to a click track during their career - studio or live - they would be a footnote in rock history. John Bonham's entire gig was that fluidity of tempo that he brought to the band.
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Modern DT:
- Posh all-seated concert halls and theatres
- Click track
- Fancy screens and lighting
- Copy-and-paste shows from one night to the next
This is not what I signed up for back in '93. I want me a proper fucking rock show. You know, like, with atmosphere and spontaneity and stuff. Like the good old days: sweaty crowded venues, five guys and a few spotlights and awesome music and legendary performances. That is what rock music should be.
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When they opened for Maiden way back when I sat directly behind FOH. Great seats. I could kick my feet up. I had perfect sound. And I could watch DT's lighting guy. That dude was more entertaining than anybody on the stage other than MP. He worked his lighting console like JP played his guitar, and he knew every note of every song. He was banging his head, playing along with the music, and if a song went particularly well he'd pump his fist and shout "fuck yeah" when he was done. He was a DT fan with a dream job and he was very good at what he did. He was probably replaced by the Light-O-Matic 9000 when Portnoy left.
Interestingly, when Maiden came on their LD just had to hit the green start button at the beginning of every song. I suspect they had to be playing to a click for that.
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Well I'll be damned. Here's DT's LD explaining it. Looks like he does still maintain some control, specifically firing off drum hits, but the bulk of it with the complexity all runs off of timecode. Demonstrated when he can't adjust the faders because they're locked into the program.
Also, this was from the Dallas show. Everything behind that guy was Cram's domain. I think he was the only guy back there. :lol Good looking venue, though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Yom0Yoie6Y
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Modern DT:
- Posh all-seated concert halls and theatres
- Click track
- Fancy screens and lighting
- Copy-and-paste shows from one night to the next
This is not what I signed up for back in '93. I want me a proper fucking rock show. You know, like, with atmosphere and spontaneity and stuff. Like the good old days: sweaty crowded venues, five guys and a few spotlights and awesome music and legendary performances. That is what rock music should be.
I love the modern day lighting technology. With the LED's, the colors are so much more intense than before and way more energy efficient. I can do without the screens though, with The Astonishing tour being an exception. Those were kind of cool.
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On the other hand, playing to a click makes it possible to have a much richer visual show. Lights and video syncing with the music.
Some of us really like a great visual show too.
I guess, but Dream Theater shows have morphed from a Rock Concert to a Performance. If I'm going to see a band play live, I want me a Rock Concert.
Indeed. The hardcore fans go to see the band play. A casual fan or someone unfamiliar with them, I guarantee, will be blown away by the quality of the performance. No CD can capture the hugeness of their sound, and the songs hit better when you can nail them.
Instead, for reasons I don't think I'll ever understand, the focus is on the stage show. The Apotheosis of this was the Astonishing tour. When I saw this live, the crowd was never able to lock in right. A lot of sitting through the first act. Then still sitting during the second. Then The Path That Divides starts. The song is a banger. The crowd stands up and rocks out with the song. Then the NOMACS track comes on, crowd sits. Then The Walking Shadow kicks in with the tom hits and guitar leads, but the crowd's already back in their seats.
Distance Over Time was the right album to put out in response, but they relegated it to side-show status on its own tour by featuring Scenes from a Memory. I know there is a certain percentage of fans that will never think anything else they do is as good. During the pre-show montage on the DT12 tour, it was the only album that got an actual cheer.
But this is not the way forward! What person that isn't already a hardcore fan would be interested in a walk down memory lane? This is a business. The asses need to be put into the seats! Going off Youtube video views for the album playlist, At Wit's End is the second most viewed track after Barstool Warrior. And, it's a new song, meaning you can show casual fans and potential new listeners that you're still putting out good material. How was this not a featured song in the first North American leg!?
I might be off-base because of the bubble I'm in, but even though metal is supposedly passe it seems to still have a large and passionate fanbase. Steven Wilson's popularity proves that people still like nerdy prog music. Musicians being good at their instruments is essentially a genre on Youtube. Even people who don't like Dream Theater at least respect them. There's no reason their attendance figures should be decreasing. Put out high quality new material. Play shows that feature your ability to blow the crowd's balls off. Profit.
One of the saddest things I read here was that they pulled Don't Look Past Me from the setlist because people were using it as a bathroom break. This is the peril of over-catering to the hardcore fan who just wants to hear exactly what they like. If you pull in a broader crowd of people who are there to enjoy seeing you play and not to have their specific tastes indulged, you won't have this problem.
The irony of all this is I still loved the show they played in Philly last spring, because they're just so good. But I also know how much they're still leaving on the table.
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They haven't had a hit on the radio since PMU. It's been nearly three decades since they've had decent radio exposure. It's too bad their record labels haven't had enough clout to get them on mainstream rock radio. They have plenty of radio friendly songs throughout their catalogue, even on Distance Over Time.
Does radio even matter anymore? I haven't listened to the radio since I could plug my portable CD player into the tape deck of my early 2000s Chevy Malibu. My step kids were born in the late 1990s and they've never owned a radio.
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They haven't had a hit on the radio since PMU. It's been nearly three decades since they've had decent radio exposure. It's too bad their record labels haven't had enough clout to get them on mainstream rock radio. They have plenty of radio friendly songs throughout their catalogue, even on Distance Over Time.
Does radio even matter anymore? I haven't listened to the radio since I could plug my portable CD player into the tape deck of my early 2000s Chevy Malibu. My step kids were born in the late 1990s and they've never owned a radio.
Believe me, a lot of people still listen to the radio. I notice it everywhere I go. The band's that do get radio exposure have more album sales and bigger turnouts to their shows. Avenged Sevenfold, Godsmack, Ghost, and Volbeat come to mind along with many others. Halestorm is also picking up momentum at their live shows. Why?? Because these bands are getting played all over on hard rock radio.
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The irony of all this is I still loved the show they played in Philly last spring, because they're just so good. But I also know how much they're still leaving on the table.
Yeah, this is really the key of it all. They're doing great and they haven't been relegated to nostalgia act status. But they could be doing even more.
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Modern DT:
- Posh all-seated concert halls and theatres
- Click track
- Fancy screens and lighting
- Copy-and-paste shows from one night to the next
Yeah in a way it seems more business than it ever felt to me.
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Like somebody once said, "nobody hates DT more than DT fans".
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I think this has already been said here, but I'll say it again: why not both? They are doing multiple dates in a particular geography; I live in northern Connecticut, and I could have reasonably seen I think 5 shows.
Why not do a Maiden? D/T comes out, feature the fuck out of it. Fill out the set with hits and a nugget or two. Next leg, do the legacy thing, playing an album or a period of their career. Since the reunion, in 1999, Maiden has alternated EVERY TOUR: album/legacy, album/legacy. Why not? You get the sort of "benefit" of a rotating setlist without actually rotating a setlist. They could still do their precision performance, to the click, but offer enough to attract the majority of the portions of their audience. The only ones that wouldn't have SOMETHING to latch onto would be the #MPWarriors, for whom DT died on September 8, 2010 (I only know the date because it's close to my birthday and I had just moved away from my family at that time). It would get my fat ass to a show, for sure.
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One of the saddest things I read here was that they pulled Don't Look Past Me from the setlist because people were using it as a bathroom break. This is the peril of over-catering to the hardcore fan who just wants to hear exactly what they like. If you pull in a broader crowd of people who are there to enjoy seeing you play and not to have their specific tastes indulged, you won't have this problem.
Well, given that the vast majority of the show was catering to the average joe fan, what's wrong with throwing a bone or two to the diehards? I mean the setlist featured TDEN, AIA, BAI, all of IaW and ACoS - all of which are well known by the casual fan and made up over 80% of the show (that is, the actual time the band performed). And the 2 songs that were swapped out so that DLPM and TLF could be added were from their most divisive album that had just been featured on the previous tour - likely songs that plenty of fans used as bathroom break time when they were in the set. So I'm failing to see what's wrong with including something that might go over the heads of the general fan, but that the diehards loved.
Like somebody once said, "nobody hates DT more than DT fans".
That might be true in some select cases, but that's not true here and in many other situations. We know what they are capable of doing as is evident from the past. But some of the things they are doing now pale in comparison, and so we express our disappointment. I fail to see how that is DT fans hating DT.
Why not do a Maiden? D/T comes out, feature the fuck out of it. Fill out the set with hits and a nugget or two. Next leg, do the legacy thing, playing an album or a period of their career.
Agreed. I said as much in this post:
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=54509.msg2605343#msg2605343
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what's wrong with throwing a bone or two to the diehards?
Bands themselves foster this mindset and it drives me completely nuts. My fave bands keep coming out with statements like this: "oh you all tell us to play this song or that song and when we play it only the first several rows go crazy and the rest of the folks in there just stand confused!" Bi**h, so what? Award us in the first several rows then! We're the ones that are going to come back to your show next time, and the folks who only know Pull Me Under will skip because "they've already seen this band live". What did DT expect when they played a non-album cut? The entire venue was supposed to explode into excitement?
I get it. You generally don't want to play songs that make the crowd go "huh?" or snooze. But what's the alternative here - selecting ten songs out of your Spotify top 20, adding what you're currently promoting to get up to 13 or 14 or 15, and doing that for every tour? Loads of my fave bands appear to be doing this and it drives me bananas.
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One of the saddest things I read here was that they pulled Don't Look Past Me from the setlist because people were using it as a bathroom break. This is the peril of over-catering to the hardcore fan who just wants to hear exactly what they like. If you pull in a broader crowd of people who are there to enjoy seeing you play and not to have their specific tastes indulged, you won't have this problem.
Well, given that the vast majority of the show was catering to the average joe fan, what's wrong with throwing a bone or two to the diehards? I mean the setlist featured TDEN, AIA, BAI, all of IaW and ACoS - all of which are well known by the casual fan and made up over 80% of the show (that is, the actual time the band performed). And the 2 songs that were swapped out so that DLPM and TLF could be added were from their most divisive album that had just been featured on the previous tour - likely songs that plenty of fans used as bathroom break time when they were in the set. So I'm failing to see what's wrong with including something that might go over the heads of the general fan, but that the diehards loved.
I screwed up my wording there. The hardest of the hardcore fans might have known the song and enjoyed it, but there's a whole other group of hardcore fans, I think, who thought "is this one of their b-sides from a single I don't know? It's not a song I like, so time to hit the bathroom." I also think there would be a sizable contingent of fans that might not know the song, but would simply be there to enjoy good music and would be down for whatever.
Both of the above factors are why I actually think they should have stuck to their guns and kept the song in their set. You satisfy the hardest core fans (who will sustain your popularity in tough times, as well as pay the most money per fan) as well as the people who are just at your show to have fun (and who might become fans and/or tell their friends). Why worry about annoying your ultra-picky fans who over-scrutinize what you do? They don't pay as much as the die-hards, aren't as plentiful as the casuals, and they're the hardest to please.
I have to ask by the way, is TDEN really a crowd favorite?
The irony of all this is I still loved the show they played in Philly last spring, because they're just so good. But I also know how much they're still leaving on the table.
Yeah, this is really the key of it all. They're doing great and they haven't been relegated to nostalgia act status. But they could be doing even more.
I think if they don't do more soon, being a nostalgia act is an inevitability. I'd bet good money they play Six Degrees (the song) in its entirety come their 2022 tour.
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Award us in the first several rows then! We're the ones that are going to come back to your show next time, and the folks who only know Pull Me Under will skip because "they've already seen this band live". What did DT expect when they played a non-album cut? The entire venue was supposed to explode into excitement?
Actually, I expressed those sentiments to JP when I saw DT earlier this year. Trying to help him see that it's OK for most of the audience to sit still for a song or two. And just because they're not going nuts doesn't mean they're not enjoying it - it could simply be a matter of them trying to figure out if they know the song or taking in a completely unfamiliar experience.
I have to ask by the way, is TDEN really a crowd favorite?
I'd say it is compared to anything else off of SC. It's been played more than any other song from that album and that opening riff seems to pump up the crowds pretty well.
I think if they don't do more soon, being a nostalgia act is an inevitability.
I don't think I agree with that. As long as the band keeps releasing new material and doing tours in support of it, and not just including one or two songs off of it, they should be able to avoid becoming a nostalgia act.
I'd bet good money they play Six Degrees (the song) in its entirety come their 2022 tour.
Dear lord I hope not. Enough with the anniversary crap. It's been done to death. If they do, then they'll be starting to straddle that line of becoming a nostalgia act.
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Award us in the first several rows then! We're the ones that are going to come back to your show next time, and the folks who only know Pull Me Under will skip because "they've already seen this band live". What did DT expect when they played a non-album cut? The entire venue was supposed to explode into excitement?
Actually, I expressed those sentiments to JP when I saw DT earlier this year. Trying to help him see that it's OK for most of the audience to sit still for a song or two. And just because they're not going nuts doesn't mean they're not enjoying it - it could simply be a matter of them trying to figure out if they know the song or taking in a completely unfamiliar experience.
What did he say about that?
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Award us in the first several rows then! We're the ones that are going to come back to your show next time, and the folks who only know Pull Me Under will skip because "they've already seen this band live". What did DT expect when they played a non-album cut? The entire venue was supposed to explode into excitement?
Actually, I expressed those sentiments to JP when I saw DT earlier this year. Trying to help him see that it's OK for most of the audience to sit still for a song or two. And just because they're not going nuts doesn't mean they're not enjoying it - it could simply be a matter of them trying to figure out if they know the song or taking in a completely unfamiliar experience.
What did he say about that?
Not much. Really nothing significant that I remember. I think he agreed with me, but whether he'll keep that in mind for future tours is a different story. I hope he does.
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Anyway, are fans that entitled that a single song can make or break a show or their desire to see them again? I strongly dislike The Dark Eternal Night, they opened the last tour with it, booh oooh, should I have walked away? how dare they not know I don't like the song! ::)
But I immediately got The Bigger Picture afterwards, and the entire Images and Words album and A Change of friggin' Seasons. Like anybody else - and I'm talking of all concerts, not just DT's - I too have my wishes, hopes and desires for the setlists, but it's any band's call to create the show they want to perform. If the entire show sucks is a different issue, but I never judged a show by a single song or two that I didn't like.
Another example - last year (to the day!) I saw Nightwish's great concert for their Decades tour, 2h and 20' of amazing stuff, I didn't like just TWO songs. Well, one I didn't like and the other I totally didn't remember. I just went along with it, it's not that now I'm thinking "they played a song I didn't know, unless next tour will have exactly all the songs I like I'm not gonna see them".
Screw people that think like that, don't cater to them :D
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Well, my comment was after reading this..
- younger generations are simply not as interested in rock music,
…it wasn't so much about being succesful.
They aren't as succesful because younger generations aren't not as interested in rock music. There's not enough demand.
Bingo. For example Finland has the largest number of metal bands per capita, but Tuska Festival in Helsinki had to stop being an all-ages event after 2018 when less than 100 underage folks attended it and the extra expenses weren't worth it anymore.
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Uh? what extra expenses are needed for having kids? or you mean that it's not about the teenagers, but actual babies for whom there's the need to set up areas to change their diapers and more generally attend better to them?
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You probably need to put in some extra precautions and employees in to make sure no one is selling drinks to underage folks, for one.
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You probably need to put in some extra precautions and employees in to make sure no one is selling drinks to underage folks, for one.
Yup, there have to be separate bar areas for grownups to drink in.
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I wish they would break out 1 or 2 rarities for each tour. Even if the crowd doesn't seem into them, they are good for the die-hard fans, and if there's going to be a live recording of the tour, it's nice to have some new stuff on it. Once upon a time DT would even play songs live that hadn't been released yet.
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I wish they would break out 1 or 2 rarities for each tour. Even if the crowd doesn't seem into them, they are good for the die-hard fans, and if there's going to be a live recording of the tour, it's nice to have some new stuff on it. Once upon a time DT would even play songs live that hadn't been released yet.
Technically, they are playing some rarities this tour.
A Nightmare to Remember hadn't been played in 9 years. Some of the Scenes songs (Through Her Eyes, One Last Time) hadn't been played since the M:2000 tour, except for maybe a show or two where all of Scenes was played (Brazil?), and Home, a major DT classic, hadn't been played in well over 10 years.
Now, there are of course different tiers of rarities, and A Nightmare to Remember and those Scenes songs aren't as rare as Don't Look Past Me or some of the FII demos that didn't make the album, but they are still rarities.
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One Last Time was played on the BC&SL tour.
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One Last Time was played on the BC&SL tour.
Ah, I had forgotten that. Not getting played in almost 10 years still makes it a rarity, so my point stands. :biggrin:
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Don’t Look Past Me is a decent song but it’s not a classic, it’s an unreleased outtake. Dream Theater have a huge back catalogue of material to pick from now so why on earth should they be delving into unreleased demos for material particularly if audiences aren’t into it?
Do people actually watch other bands live? Do Iron Maiden, Rush, Bon Jovi etc start pulling out old demos in their live shows? No, they stick to their big hits, stuff of the latest album and maybe play the odd album track they haven’t played for a while if you’re lucky. Do you think Maiden fans complain when they play Hallowed Be Thy Name or 2 Minutes To Midnight for the millionth time or do Bon Jovi fans complain when Wanted Dead Or Alive, Livin On A Prayer come on? No they sing along and belt those songs out.
DT fans are lucky in a sense as DT don’t have big hits so you’re not hearing the same stuff on every tour, it varies a lot from tour to tour but people still find stuff to complain about. They’re playing to a click, wtf cares? I’m sorry but DT never put on crazy, sweaty rock shows. People go to see them play their instruments and play these incredibly technical intricate songs and pull them off live. It’s always been that way even when Portnoy was in the band. I think Portnoy even said that the spectacle of a DT show was seeing them play their instruments. It’s always been a performance rather than a big rock show, Portnoy throwing his sticks in the air and occasionally standing up added a little bit of showmanship but not much and JLB has upped his game in that regard in recent years.
Dream Theater are out there playing their asses off doing 2.5 - 3 hour shows every night doing a mix of new stuff and old and celebrating the 20 year anniversary of their greatest album, give them a break for fucks sake.
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I love your counterpoints, but I feel like you've misread a large portion of the conversation. This isn't just a "whine about recent setlist" topic, it's us discussing if DT is shrinking in popularity judging by concert attendance, and the reasons why the shrinking or plateauing might be happening based on the setlist choices, inclusion of the click, and other things. Some people mentioned Iron Maiden's model of touring (one legacy tour, one new album tour) and how they like it better than what DT has been doing most of this year (combining the legacy tour with the new album tour). Others brought up the click track, not because DT's shows used to be sweaty rock shows (though, the bootlegs from the 90's certainly paint that exact picture!), but because the extras in the shows used to be of a musical variety, like: if you attend ten shows in the same town you won't get many setlist repeats, you'll see some jamming sometimes, there's always some rare cuts waiting to be played for the first time. Nowadays the "extra" that you pay a hefty price for is a great audio-visual production, and that's fantastic, but there has been a change that doesn't appeal to everyone.
Yeah, I'll admit I whined about DLPM getting the boot, because I feel like putting that song in the setlist yielded exactly the right results (the hardcore fans adored the inclusion even if they don't like the song much, casual fans were neutral to mildly negative). But they expected something else, probably.
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Peter, I'm pretty much with you. I saw several shows on this tour and loved every minute of each one. Yeah, they play to a click and I really couldn't care less. I don't know what it was like in the balcony where people were sitting, but on the floor there was an energy between the band and crowd, something in the air, and it was great.
Having said that, people do complain about Maiden playing the same songs all the time - I know people who have skipped tours because of that. :) Myself sort of included, though I would probably have seen them if they played nearby.
I do get people wanting more setlist variety - I do too. I loved that aspect from the past; but I'm still seeing them. I might offer up my opinions/preferences, but hopefully I also do so in a respectful way.
And yeah - with you 100% about it not being much different pre/post MP when they were playing seated venues. Even GA shows weren't necessarily wild, but there was a little more energy from the crowd.
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Don’t Look Past Me is a decent song but it’s not a classic, it’s an unreleased outtake. Dream Theater have a huge back catalogue of material to pick from now so why on earth should they be delving into unreleased demos for material particularly if audiences aren’t into it?
Because that particular tour focused on that specific period of the band's history. So it was perfectly appropriate to finally include it in the setlist. It's a shame that the band didn't stick to their guns and keep it in the setlist. Had the band kept it in the setlist, and especially put out a live album from that tour, the song would be much more well known, just as Raise the Knife and Another Won both became better known after being featured on Score. That's why.
Do people actually watch other bands live? Do Iron Maiden, Rush, Bon Jovi etc start pulling out old demos in their live shows? No, they stick to their big hits, stuff of the latest album and maybe play the odd album track they haven’t played for a while if you’re lucky. Do you think Maiden fans complain when they play Hallowed Be Thy Name or 2 Minutes To Midnight for the millionth time or do Bon Jovi fans complain when Wanted Dead Or Alive, Livin On A Prayer come on? No they sing along and belt those songs out.
Rush has actually been pretty good about not including a lot of popular songs in their setlists on every tour. Yes, you could be guaranteed to see Tom Sawyer and The Spirit of Radio on any given tour, but aside from that, they did a pretty good job of changing things up from tour to tour - especially since the Vapor Trails tour. And just FYI, while it was just a 10 second teaser tacked on to the end of Working Man, Rush did include one of their early, unreleased songs during their final tour - no doubt a little nod to the diehards.
Just in the same way there are those of us DT fans who complain, you can be sure there are plenty of diehard fans of other bands that complain about how the same tired hits are played at every show on every tour. I know I've seen it with regards to Rush and Iron Maiden. You can be sure it's true of many other bands, too. There may be plenty of casual fans who "sing along and belt those songs out" but there are also the diehards in attendance who roll their eyes when those songs come up. Nevermind other fans like me who go to see a lot of these bands once and have no need to see them again because so much of the setlist is the same every tour.
I’m sorry but DT never put on crazy, sweaty rock shows. People go to see them play their instruments and play these incredibly technical intricate songs and pull them off live. It’s always been that way even when Portnoy was in the band.
Nope. Did you ever see the band in the 90s or early 2000s? Especially in the 90s, they *did* put on crazy, sweaty rock shows - I know because I saw them, as did Graham, Tim and other old school fans. Sure they played intricate and technical songs, but that didn't mean that there wasn't a certain level of spontaneity or craziness in their shows. It may not be at the level of some bands, but certainly it was there in comparison to the rigid programmed performances we see now.
It’s always been a performance rather than a big rock show
No it hasn't. If it was, then us old school fans who actually saw those shows wouldn't be bringing it up. At those shows, there was the feeling that anything could happen, and sometimes did - that feeling is long gone now. Listen to bootlegs, especially from 1995 through 2002, and tell me those shows have the same feel as the shows of today.
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^ What he said.
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But, are the 90s shows really the reason for less popularity now? If you just wanted to correct the "never" comment for the record, fair enough.
But some seem to be implying that the difference in sweaty rock show vs not is more recent, maybe pre/post click or something, and I definitely don't think so. I think that difference is more due to GA/seated venues.
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Scotty covered most of this, and far better than I (because he was actually there for some of the shows I'm referencing) but nonetheless...
Do people actually watch other bands live? Do Iron Maiden, Rush, Bon Jovi etc start pulling out old demos in their live shows? No, they stick to their big hits, stuff of the latest album and maybe play the odd album track they haven’t played for a while if you’re lucky. Do you think Maiden fans complain when they play Hallowed Be Thy Name or 2 Minutes To Midnight for the millionth time or do Bon Jovi fans complain when Wanted Dead Or Alive, Livin On A Prayer come on? No they sing along and belt those songs out.
Not an unfair point, but it's not really apples to apples. I think there are differences in the audience that matter (there is no "bootleg" culture in the Bon Jovi universe, and there is far more likely a member of that audience that's there for the radio hit they heard last summer). But the Maiden fans DO complain about "Run To The Hills", "Fear Of The Dark", et al., and Bruce, for one, has addressed that a couple times. The BAND has addressed that I think about five times over the past 20 years by doing their alternating album/legacy shows.
I think the popularity factor makes this a circular argument. If you're playing 20,000 seat arenas as a headliner, it's a different equation than selling 1,500 seats in a theater. At any given Maiden or Bon Jovi show there is a percentage of fans that are there for the last song, or the song in the encore. I've seen enough Kiss shows, that even after 40 years, Rock And Roll All Nite STILL gets the best reaction of any song in their setlist. That's not because I'm there, wishing for "Sweet Pain" or "Flaming Youth". Put a different way, a 20,000 seat arena Bon Jovi show is getting a number of people that are "ah, fuck it, I'll scalp a ticket, have a few beers and see what the girls are wearing at the Jovi show. Hope they play a song I know". A 1,500 seat theater DT show is not.
I’m sorry but DT never put on crazy, sweaty rock shows. People go to see them play their instruments and play these incredibly technical intricate songs and pull them off live. It’s always been that way even when Portnoy was in the band. I think Portnoy even said that the spectacle of a DT show was seeing them play their instruments. It’s always been a performance rather than a big rock show, Portnoy throwing his sticks in the air and occasionally standing up added a little bit of showmanship but not much and JLB has upped his game in that regard in recent years.
Up until... Scenes, I guess, DT was playing places around me like Toad's Place and the El & Gee Club, and while I didn't see any of those shows, be straight right up front, I've seen OTHER shows in those places, and BY DEFINITION they are sweaty rock shows. And not to throw fuel, but in the post-Portnoy show I saw, JLB did not up his game all that much. He SOUNDED great, but he wasn't noticeably more animated than the last show I saw with Portnoy.
Dream Theater are out there playing their asses off doing 2.5 - 3 hour shows every night doing a mix of new stuff and old and celebrating the 20 year anniversary of their greatest album, give them a break for fucks sake.
Also not an unfair comment. But for someone who's been there, done that, 10, 12 times and has t-shirts for every one of them, what's the new attraction?
I'm really not taking a stand here, since I think you make very good points and my "care" level is pretty low on this, but I do see both sides to the equation.
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DT become the most popular across the world at the same time they started doing much more orchestrated - high production value - shows in the early 2000s, mid 2000s. So the empirical evidence tells DT and their management that "professionalism = attract more audience"
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Don’t Look Past Me is a decent song but it’s not a classic, it’s an unreleased outtake. Dream Theater have a huge back catalogue of material to pick from now so why on earth should they be delving into unreleased demos for material particularly if audiences aren’t into it?
Because that particular tour focused on that specific period of the band's history. So it was perfectly appropriate to finally include it in the setlist. It's a shame that the band didn't stick to their guns and keep it in the setlist. Had the band kept it in the setlist, and especially put out a live album from that tour, the song would be much more well known, just as Raise the Knife and Another Won both became better known after being featured on Score. That's why.
Do people actually watch other bands live? Do Iron Maiden, Rush, Bon Jovi etc start pulling out old demos in their live shows? No, they stick to their big hits, stuff of the latest album and maybe play the odd album track they haven’t played for a while if you’re lucky. Do you think Maiden fans complain when they play Hallowed Be Thy Name or 2 Minutes To Midnight for the millionth time or do Bon Jovi fans complain when Wanted Dead Or Alive, Livin On A Prayer come on? No they sing along and belt those songs out.
Rush has actually been pretty good about not including a lot of popular songs in their setlists on every tour. Yes, you could be guaranteed to see Tom Sawyer and The Spirit of Radio on any given tour, but aside from that, they did a pretty good job of changing things up from tour to tour - especially since the Vapor Trails tour. And just FYI, while it was just a 10 second teaser tacked on to the end of Working Man, Rush did include one of their early, unreleased songs during their final tour - no doubt a little nod to the diehards.
Just in the same way there are those of us DT fans who complain, you can be sure there are plenty of diehard fans of other bands that complain about how the same tired hits are played at every show on every tour. I know I've seen it with regards to Rush and Iron Maiden. You can be sure it's true of many other bands, too. There may be plenty of casual fans who "sing along and belt those songs out" but there are also the diehards in attendance who roll their eyes when those songs come up. Nevermind other fans like me who go to see a lot of these bands once and have no need to see them again because so much of the setlist is the same every tour.
I’m sorry but DT never put on crazy, sweaty rock shows. People go to see them play their instruments and play these incredibly technical intricate songs and pull them off live. It’s always been that way even when Portnoy was in the band.
Nope. Did you ever see the band in the 90s or early 2000s? Especially in the 90s, they *did* put on crazy, sweaty rock shows - I know because I saw them, as did Graham, Tim and other old school fans. Sure they played intricate and technical songs, but that didn't mean that there wasn't a certain level of spontaneity or craziness in their shows. It may not be at the level of some bands, but certainly it was there in comparison to the rigid programmed performances we see now.
It’s always been a performance rather than a big rock show
No it hasn't. If it was, then us old school fans who actually saw those shows wouldn't be bringing it up. At those shows, there was the feeling that anything could happen, and sometimes did - that feeling is long gone now. Listen to bootlegs, especially from 1995 through 2002, and tell me those shows have the same feel as the shows of today.
I wasn’t there in the very early days but have seen every tour from FII onwards so that’s 20 years of touring and they were not super energetic sweaty rock shows with the audience going crazy. It’s generally been prog nerds geeking out at how amazing the musicianship is in my experience. You got a few headbangers in during the early Roadrunner years but that’s about it. They simply don’t give out that level of energy from the stage, Petrucci is not a showman guitar player, La Brie is not a Jon Bon Jovi, Ozzy Osbourne level frontman. Portnoy did make an effort but he’s the drummer at the end of the day, not the frontman, it was never enough to electrify a crowd. Maybe in the very early days when they were young kids out of college, playing small clubs it was a bit different, I’ll admit I wasn’t seeing them back then. It was a bit looser with Portnoy with more improvisation (although that gradually disappeared to a large degree) but going to see Dream Theater in the last 20 odd years has never been a concert where I expected to see a crowd bouncing around head banging. It’s mainly been standing and watching, now sitting and watching with applause/cheers at appropriate moments.
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Regarding the live crowds, the material the band is playing has a huge influence on how active and energetic they are. Nothing gets a DT crowd going like playing songs from Scenes from a Memory or Images and Words. The excitement level of the crowd when they played here a few months back sky rocketed in the second set when Scenes was played.
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Regarding the live crowds, the material the band is playing has a huge influence on how active and energetic they are. Nothing gets a DT crowd going like playing songs from Scenes from a Memory or Images and Words. The excitement level of the crowd when they played here a few months back sky rocketed in the second set when Scenes was played.
this exactly was the reaction I observed when I saw them on the I/W 2.0 tour in Hamburg (although IIRC, there wasn't any Met2 material being played that day) and it was a great concert too (as I expected, to be honest, but it still was beyond my expectations)
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At those shows, there was the feeling that anything could happen, and sometimes did - that feeling is long gone now. Listen to bootlegs, especially from 1995 through 2002, and tell me those shows have the same feel as the shows of today.
I've always blamed Phish for that. Those guys and the way they approached their live shows were hugely popular and influential during...well those exact years you just referenced.
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Don’t Look Past Me is a decent song but it’s not a classic, it’s an unreleased outtake. Dream Theater have a huge back catalogue of material to pick from now so why on earth should they be delving into unreleased demos for material particularly if audiences aren’t into it?
Because that particular tour focused on that specific period of the band's history. So it was perfectly appropriate to finally include it in the setlist. It's a shame that the band didn't stick to their guns and keep it in the setlist. Had the band kept it in the setlist, and especially put out a live album from that tour, the song would be much more well known, just as Raise the Knife and Another Won both became better known after being featured on Score. That's why.
Do people actually watch other bands live? Do Iron Maiden, Rush, Bon Jovi etc start pulling out old demos in their live shows? No, they stick to their big hits, stuff of the latest album and maybe play the odd album track they haven’t played for a while if you’re lucky. Do you think Maiden fans complain when they play Hallowed Be Thy Name or 2 Minutes To Midnight for the millionth time or do Bon Jovi fans complain when Wanted Dead Or Alive, Livin On A Prayer come on? No they sing along and belt those songs out.
Rush has actually been pretty good about not including a lot of popular songs in their setlists on every tour. Yes, you could be guaranteed to see Tom Sawyer and The Spirit of Radio on any given tour, but aside from that, they did a pretty good job of changing things up from tour to tour - especially since the Vapor Trails tour. And just FYI, while it was just a 10 second teaser tacked on to the end of Working Man, Rush did include one of their early, unreleased songs during their final tour - no doubt a little nod to the diehards.
Just in the same way there are those of us DT fans who complain, you can be sure there are plenty of diehard fans of other bands that complain about how the same tired hits are played at every show on every tour. I know I've seen it with regards to Rush and Iron Maiden. You can be sure it's true of many other bands, too. There may be plenty of casual fans who "sing along and belt those songs out" but there are also the diehards in attendance who roll their eyes when those songs come up. Nevermind other fans like me who go to see a lot of these bands once and have no need to see them again because so much of the setlist is the same every tour.
I’m sorry but DT never put on crazy, sweaty rock shows. People go to see them play their instruments and play these incredibly technical intricate songs and pull them off live. It’s always been that way even when Portnoy was in the band.
Nope. Did you ever see the band in the 90s or early 2000s? Especially in the 90s, they *did* put on crazy, sweaty rock shows - I know because I saw them, as did Graham, Tim and other old school fans. Sure they played intricate and technical songs, but that didn't mean that there wasn't a certain level of spontaneity or craziness in their shows. It may not be at the level of some bands, but certainly it was there in comparison to the rigid programmed performances we see now.
It’s always been a performance rather than a big rock show
No it hasn't. If it was, then us old school fans who actually saw those shows wouldn't be bringing it up. At those shows, there was the feeling that anything could happen, and sometimes did - that feeling is long gone now. Listen to bootlegs, especially from 1995 through 2002, and tell me those shows have the same feel as the shows of today.
This is why my father never chose to see MM era DT live with me. (and since you mentioned the timeframe of 95 - 2002, I own 3 bootlegs from that time and I agree that it's different now) I for one like the consistency DT show now (although less so on this tour, judging from the YT clips I've watched), although I can understand (to some very minute degree) why some people are puzzled by the predictable aspect of DT now (or what they percieve as predictable)
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As someone who attended the crazy, sweaty, DT rock shows (and got caught up in a pit that surfed me from one end of a venue to another), DT, at one time, was much more about rocking the hell out (with technicality), rather than being metal theater.
Any fan who saw them live from the beginning through the initial SFAM run knows that. Hell, even the BB Kings show on Six Degrees (Jan. 2002, if memory serves) was more of a rock show. They morphed, over time, into the act you see now. Which is, very, very good. But they are a different kind of band now.
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As someone who attended the crazy, sweaty, DT rock shows (and got caught up in a pit that surfed me from one end of a venue to another), DT, at one time, was much more about rocking the hell out (with technicality), rather than being metal theater.
Any fan who saw them live from the beginning through the initial SFAM run knows that. Hell, even the BB Kings show on Six Degrees (Jan. 2002, if memory serves) was more of a rock show. They morphed, over time, into the act you see now. Which is, very, very good. But they are a different kind of band now.
I did attend 6 MP era DT shows (2000, 2002 and 2004) and 3 MM era DT shows (2014, 2016, 2017), and so I know what you mean. They were a lot looser then. (not using clicks either at the time IIRC)
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As someone who attended the crazy, sweaty, DT rock shows (and got caught up in a pit that surfed me from one end of a venue to another), DT, at one time, was much more about rocking the hell out (with technicality), rather than being metal theater.
Any fan who saw them live from the beginning through the initial SFAM run knows that. Hell, even the BB Kings show on Six Degrees (Jan. 2002, if memory serves) was more of a rock show. They morphed, over time, into the act you see now. Which is, very, very good. But they are a different kind of band now.
The best part about the Santiago official bootleg is how crazy the crowd is and that was already past this time you are talking about in 2005. It's unlike any other DT concert I've seen in terms of crowd response (in person or on video). I'm sure those 90s shows were pretty wild and fun.
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As someone who attended the crazy, sweaty, DT rock shows (and got caught up in a pit that surfed me from one end of a venue to another), DT, at one time, was much more about rocking the hell out (with technicality), rather than being metal theater.
Any fan who saw them live from the beginning through the initial SFAM run knows that. Hell, even the BB Kings show on Six Degrees (Jan. 2002, if memory serves) was more of a rock show. They morphed, over time, into the act you see now. Which is, very, very good. But they are a different kind of band now.
The best part about the Santiago official bootleg is how crazy the crowd is and that was already past this time you are talking about in 2005. It's unlike any other DT concert I've seen in terms of crowd response (in person or on video). I'm sure those 90s shows were pretty wild and fun.
I can tell you that I percieved my first DT show (in 2000, but still, it applies) to be somewhat wild and definitely interspersed with humourous bits. One aspect I remember pretty well was that they played Erotomania and MP was wearing a Kiss mask while playing the entire piece. (I think it was Ace's mask, I'm not sure though) I thought that was funny and somewhat absurd too. (and JM being bombarded with a chocolate cake in 2004 because it was his birthday that day, during the indefinite silence in Met1 that they had implemented in the MP era, some of us here may remember that aspect too)
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DT in Glasgow on the SFAM tour back in 2000. Petrucci's guitar rig goes out half way through. What do they do? Why, they pull a fan out of the crowd onto the stage to sing War Pigs while the guitar tech gets to work.
The guitar comes alive again, JP joins in the impromptu Sabbath jam, and the whole place just fucking ERUPTS.
That kind of sweaty unplanned awesomeness just doesn't happen any more.
(https://uc85e6b5da7a464e9776ea4a5e8c.previews.dropboxusercontent.com/p/thumb/AApjkcx13ATrE9PEdbottYC-NXr-PBmxtdRQWmHwe4EWZj7NO03IJo7rnNWwWJra4bhSHeRmP4_svNp_RT4peOXRNGb1T-B6G1R7V9TH1hXnvMuA9TN-OyjTrhLMluDLaeCngqpVpUcn1lCwef7jQyaS2P6fNSHDdgrqvOJaeXOEaaK5J5Y8s2XxdixnPzTlrHstn7sNLhG6rp3otWOusMjdCtYnuMwa7eMlgVtxkDUXbLqT9DJyMy8RJfR-yw9WdYcmuYyZjwzE-vyg_Q1pqsGaQ14gKxnCeGiZGhPTsm3O-IK7NE3Qs9bcDR0os06BacV9ojxS0zDTCcOxrcxS2KlQm5yc8mcpf0QiHs-LZkxd-3ujl_VnmxBxYtD--FnXyOYuPZELSG0MlIwo5wEvG9unrUc2Sj09fAwWbsiGDG5q93xgNTq9t9MGanb4j9qt5a2mYOhP9EgPYJ5XO40Oyx5hmjJMy8sIOvyf5DSS7TaqXg/p.png?fv_content=true&size_mode=5)
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DT in Glasgow on the SFAM tour back in 2000. Petrucci's guitar rig goes out half way through. What do they do? Why, they pull a fan out of the crowd onto the stage to sing War Pigs while the guitar tech gets to work.
The guitar comes alive again, JP joins in the impromptu Sabbath jam, and the whole place just fucking ERUPTS.
That kind of sweaty unplanned awesomeness just doesn't happen any more.
I wonder what they would do today if that happened, but DT do still seem like a band that would try and entertain if they had an outage like that, but I absolutely love it when I am lucky enough for these types of mishaps to happen at shows I go to. Such as the power going out during Powerslave from Iron Maiden at MSG 10 years ago so they started playing soccer on stage :lol
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Something happened during this tour with JP’s guitar and JR/MM started improvising during a march show.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ba5bEit62u4
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Believe me, a lot of people still listen to the radio. I notice it everywhere I go. The band's that do get radio exposure have more album sales and bigger turnouts to their shows. Avenged Sevenfold, Godsmack, Ghost, and Volbeat come to mind along with many others. Halestorm is also picking up momentum at their live shows. Why?? Because these bands are getting played all over on hard rock radio.
I'm way out of touch. I thought it was all Internet exposure these days.
Yeah, I'll admit I whined about DLPM getting the boot, because I feel like putting that song in the setlist yielded exactly the right results (the hardcore fans adored the inclusion even if they don't like the song much, casual fans were neutral to mildly negative). But they expected something else, probably.
Why would hardcore fans love to see a song live if they're not into the song?
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Believe me, a lot of people still listen to the radio. I notice it everywhere I go. The band's that do get radio exposure have more album sales and bigger turnouts to their shows. Avenged Sevenfold, Godsmack, Ghost, and Volbeat come to mind along with many others. Halestorm is also picking up momentum at their live shows. Why?? Because these bands are getting played all over on hard rock radio.
I'm way out of touch. I thought it was all Internet exposure these days.
Yeah, I'll admit I whined about DLPM getting the boot, because I feel like putting that song in the setlist yielded exactly the right results (the hardcore fans adored the inclusion even if they don't like the song much, casual fans were neutral to mildly negative). But they expected something else, probably.
Why would hardcore fans love to see a song live if they're not into the song?
Maybe because it's something new, something to tick of the list....
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Why would hardcore fans love to see a song live if they're not into the song?
Because it's new, because it's a tip of the hat to those who looked it up and listened to it, because it opens the door to other live rares being played, and a lot of other reasons.
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DT in Glasgow on the SFAM tour back in 2000. Petrucci's guitar rig goes out half way through. What do they do? Why, they pull a fan out of the crowd onto the stage to sing War Pigs while the guitar tech gets to work.
The guitar comes alive again, JP joins in the impromptu Sabbath jam, and the whole place just fucking ERUPTS.
That kind of sweaty unplanned awesomeness just doesn't happen any more.
That show was unusual even for then. That whole show was crazy as fuck.
That's where we got the Canadian Rap, after all.
I love listening to that bootleg for how batshit the whole thing is. It sounds like they were all jetlagged, punch drunk, and strung out.
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Why would hardcore fans love to see a song live if they're not into the song?
Because it's new, because it's a tip of the hat to those who looked it up and listened to it, because it opens the door to other live rares being played, and a lot of other reasons.
Yup, for the fans who've seen the band so many times, it's a nice treat to get something different and rare. Gives that show a specialness to it if you got to see it. I'm not a big fan of this specific song, but I sure wish I saw it over TSCO.
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Why would hardcore fans love to see a song live if they're not into the song?
Because it's new, because it's a tip of the hat to those who looked it up and listened to it, because it opens the door to other live rares being played, and a lot of other reasons.
Yup, for the fans who've seen the band so many times, it's a nice treat to get something different and rare. Gives that show a specialness to it if you got to see it. I'm not a big fan of this specific song, but I sure wish I saw it over TSCO.
I'm not a big concert-goer so this is something I can't understand. When I'm at home or driving somewhere, I don't get tired of listening to the songs I love. If I got tired of seeing the same songs live, then I'd stop going. But I can't see myself enjoying the same songs live plus one or two songs I'm not into.
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And that's fair, I suppose. To each their own. For me, it's often less about the actual "songs", than the experience. Almost all the "great" concert experiences I've had either were about songs I'm not high on or had nothing to do with the songs at all. The exception is when McCartney played "Yesterday". But while I'm not all that interested in "Freaks" as a song, when Hogarth and Rothery answered the crowd's chants and played an impromptu acoustic version of the song, with Hogarth singing from a piece of paper, it was a clear message that Marillion was there as much for the fans as the fans were there for Marillion. It was a special moment.
I think that's close to the idea that some are tapping into here.
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I do get why hardcore fans enjoy hearing obscure stuff and I like Don’t Look Past Me but the band are looking to put on a show for 2,000 people or however many are there. I doubt they’re looking to please about 6 people who own the Cleaning Out the Closet cd (and 6 is generous) while the rest of the audience scratch their head saying “wtf is this?”. It’s just an unnecessary lull in the show to please a tiny number of people, doesn’t make sense when you have a huge catalogue of well known songs that people want to hear. I applaud them for giving it a go but, when it was going down like a lead balloon, it makes sense to take it out.
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I do get why hardcore fans enjoy hearing obscure stuff and I like Don’t Look Past Me but the band are looking to put on a show for 2,000 people or however many are there. I doubt they’re looking to please about 6 people who own the Cleaning Out the Closet cd (and 6 is generous) while the rest of the audience scratch their head saying “wtf is this?”. It’s just an unnecessary lull in the show to please a tiny number of people, doesn’t make sense when you have a huge catalogue of well known songs that people want to hear. I applaud them for giving it a go but, when it was going down like a lead balloon, it makes sense to take it out.
But I think what they're getting at is there's already a bunch of super popular songs in the setlist that any die-hard fan has most likely seen multiple times, so why not throw in a rarity that only a few know to make it worth it for them? If the band was to go on tour right now and play just SFAM and I&W straight through in one concert, then I'd have no reason to see them. They're their most popular and beloved albums, but it wouldn't be worth it to me because I've seen all those songs many times. But if they did SFAM & I&W and then did You Not Me or The Way It Used To Be or Disappear, then that one rare song might be enough for me to see the concert. While I know I'll always enjoy seeing SFAM/I&W, I'll also get a song I've never gotten to experience live before so it's now become worth it. One really rare song can make me attend a concert I wouldn't normally attend and I'm sure other fans feel the same.
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And that's fair, I suppose. To each their own. For me, it's often less about the actual "songs", than the experience. Almost all the "great" concert experiences I've had either were about songs I'm not high on or had nothing to do with the songs at all. The exception is when McCartney played "Yesterday". But while I'm not all that interested in "Freaks" as a song, when Hogarth and Rothery answered the crowd's chants and played an impromptu acoustic version of the song, with Hogarth singing from a piece of paper, it was a clear message that Marillion was there as much for the fans as the fans were there for Marillion. It was a special moment.
I think that's close to the idea that some are tapping into here.
That's cool. Maybe I'd get it if I saw the same band many times.
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I'm not sure "quantity" is necessary; maybe. I saw Gene Simmons solo in a 1,000 seat club, and while it was mostly Gene's solo songs and songs he wrote while in Kiss, it was more about the fact that he was presenting himself in that setting. No bombs, no fire, no blood, no breathing fire, no Paul, nothing but the nakedness of him singing those songs with three other guys.
Same with when I saw Billy Squier with GE Smith; I'm a huge Squier fan, and I'm not sure there was more than one or two songs in that set that I would have picked had I done the setlist ("in The Dark" and "Too Daze Gone"). Yet it was magical, because they were songs that HE picked to tell the story.
What's the difference between giving us The Astonishing and "Don't Look Past Me"? Do you think all 2,500 people at every show were clamoring with passion for each song of that cycle? They had their reasons and we accepted it. Same with obscure songs, in my opinion.
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I have read some not all of this thread but as a guy who goes every tour I have seen some of the wind come out of there sails. I feel like my first tour which was the Score tour they were at there pinnacle. They held that momentum into the next tour which should have stayed an evening with format. I think Prog Nation was a huge misstep and a big mistake for DT not doing a real tour for BC&SL.
The first Mangini tour had a lot of juice. The Beacon in NYC was sold out and rocking. After that its been tailing off I think. The Astonishing was certainly ambitious and on that tour they missed the mark my not at least playing something epic for an encore.
I feel this tour has lacked the juice I usually feel. I went to Albany mid October and it was the weakest crowd I've ever experienced. I do think they need to make sure the next album is strong and they need to stop memorializing albums by playing them in there entirety. I think the novice fan wants a more broad encompassing setlist with songs from all albums.
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I'm not sure "quantity" is necessary; maybe. I saw Gene Simmons solo in a 1,000 seat club, and while it was mostly Gene's solo songs and songs he wrote while in Kiss, it was more about the fact that he was presenting himself in that setting. No bombs, no fire, no blood, no breathing fire, no Paul, nothing but the nakedness of him singing those songs with three other guys.
Same with when I saw Billy Squier with GE Smith; I'm a huge Squier fan, and I'm not sure there was more than one or two songs in that set that I would have picked had I done the setlist ("in The Dark" and "Too Daze Gone"). Yet it was magical, because they were songs that HE picked to tell the story.
What's the difference between giving us The Astonishing and "Don't Look Past Me"? Do you think all 2,500 people at every show were clamoring with passion for each song of that cycle? They had their reasons and we accepted it. Same with obscure songs, in my opinion.
The difference between The Astonishing and DLPM is that the vast majority of people in the audience in those shows knew all of those songs and knew they were going to be played. Pretty much zero people in any DT audience knows Don’t Look Past Me. They tried playing it, everyone went “meh, don’t know this one, I’m going to the bar/toilet” and therefore they pulled it from the set as it was killing the momentum of the show. That makes perfect sense to me. I’m not saying DT has to play Metropolis, Pull Me Under etc at every show, they’ve never done that. They’ve never been a band that just plays the hits as they don’t have any hits and, after they’ve now paid homage to their two big albums, I’m sure we’ll go back to a more balanced set list. Why though should they continue to play a song that no one knows if it’s being met with apathy from the audience, just to please a minuscule number of fans?
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Why though should they continue to play a song that no one knows if it’s being met with apathy from the audience, just to please a minuscule number of fans?
Because it's a tiny percentage of the show (less than 7 minutes out of a show lasting 150+ minutes), and they know that they have diehard fans in the audience that eat that sort of thing up. And again, how many people who are sitting/standing and not doing anything are not enjoying the experience? They may not be familiar with the song, but that doesn't mean they're not enjoying it. If one of my favorite bands was to break out some obscure song I wasn't familiar with, I wouldn't be jumping up and down like a maniac, but I wouldn't be apathetic either. I would be standing there, taking in the song and enjoying the experience. How can I say that? Because that's exactly what I did on every occasion where the band did some sort of improv jam. I would imagine that there are plenty of other DT fans that have the same mindset, considering the fact that DT has a much higher percentage of a cult-fanbase than most mainstream bands.
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It also may have been its placement in the setlist. They played TLF during that tour as well (which I believe is considered a rarity as well?), to play DLPM right after could have triggered some people to say "Meh, I don't know what they are playing, I am just here for I&W".
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I'm not sure "quantity" is necessary; maybe. I saw Gene Simmons solo in a 1,000 seat club, and while it was mostly Gene's solo songs and songs he wrote while in Kiss, it was more about the fact that he was presenting himself in that setting. No bombs, no fire, no blood, no breathing fire, no Paul, nothing but the nakedness of him singing those songs with three other guys.
Same with when I saw Billy Squier with GE Smith; I'm a huge Squier fan, and I'm not sure there was more than one or two songs in that set that I would have picked had I done the setlist ("in The Dark" and "Too Daze Gone"). Yet it was magical, because they were songs that HE picked to tell the story.
What's the difference between giving us The Astonishing and "Don't Look Past Me"? Do you think all 2,500 people at every show were clamoring with passion for each song of that cycle? They had their reasons and we accepted it. Same with obscure songs, in my opinion.
The difference between The Astonishing and DLPM is that the vast majority of people in the audience in those shows knew all of those songs and knew they were going to be played. Pretty much zero people in any DT audience knows Don’t Look Past Me. They tried playing it, everyone went “meh, don’t know this one, I’m going to the bar/toilet” and therefore they pulled it from the set as it was killing the momentum of the show. That makes perfect sense to me. I’m not saying DT has to play Metropolis, Pull Me Under etc at every show, they’ve never done that. They’ve never been a band that just plays the hits as they don’t have any hits and, after they’ve now paid homage to their two big albums, I’m sure we’ll go back to a more balanced set list. Why though should they continue to play a song that no one knows if it’s being met with apathy from the audience, just to please a minuscule number of fans?
Honest question: do you believe a casual fan is going to digest a two-CD sci-fi concept album and invest $100 to see a performance of that live? Or conversely, do you believe that a more serious fan is going to digest a two-CD sci-fi concept album, and pay $100 for a reading of that concept, and will be oblivious to a not-that-obscure b-side or, in this case, unreleased song?
We're not talking about Taylor Swift here.
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Why though should they continue to play a song that no one knows if it’s being met with apathy from the audience, just to please a minuscule number of fans?
Because it's a tiny percentage of the show (less than 7 minutes out of a show lasting 150+ minutes), and they know that they have diehard fans in the audience that eat that sort of thing up. And again, how many people who are sitting/standing and not doing anything are not enjoying the experience? They may not be familiar with the song, but that doesn't mean they're not enjoying it. If one of my favorite bands was to break out some obscure song I wasn't familiar with, I wouldn't be jumping up and down like a maniac, but I wouldn't be apathetic either. I would be standing there, taking in the song and enjoying the experience. How can I say that? Because that's exactly what I did on every occasion where the band did some sort of improv jam. I would imagine that there are plenty of other DT fans that have the same mindset, considering the fact that DT has a much higher percentage of a cult-fanbase than most mainstream bands.
I would be exactly the same as you with an unknown song or improv jam. People are reporting though that there WAS apathy, that people were using it as a bathroom break. I’m just saying, if that was the case, maybe it’s right to drop it rather than have a dead 7 min in the set. Surely they wouldn’t drop it if everyone was into it as you suggest. I’m guessing they were seeing people walking out to the bar, talking to each other, going to the bathroom and not standing there intently taking it in and enjoying it.
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I'm not sure "quantity" is necessary; maybe. I saw Gene Simmons solo in a 1,000 seat club, and while it was mostly Gene's solo songs and songs he wrote while in Kiss, it was more about the fact that he was presenting himself in that setting. No bombs, no fire, no blood, no breathing fire, no Paul, nothing but the nakedness of him singing those songs with three other guys.
Same with when I saw Billy Squier with GE Smith; I'm a huge Squier fan, and I'm not sure there was more than one or two songs in that set that I would have picked had I done the setlist ("in The Dark" and "Too Daze Gone"). Yet it was magical, because they were songs that HE picked to tell the story.
What's the difference between giving us The Astonishing and "Don't Look Past Me"? Do you think all 2,500 people at every show were clamoring with passion for each song of that cycle? They had their reasons and we accepted it. Same with obscure songs, in my opinion.
The difference between The Astonishing and DLPM is that the vast majority of people in the audience in those shows knew all of those songs and knew they were going to be played. Pretty much zero people in any DT audience knows Don’t Look Past Me. They tried playing it, everyone went “meh, don’t know this one, I’m going to the bar/toilet” and therefore they pulled it from the set as it was killing the momentum of the show. That makes perfect sense to me. I’m not saying DT has to play Metropolis, Pull Me Under etc at every show, they’ve never done that. They’ve never been a band that just plays the hits as they don’t have any hits and, after they’ve now paid homage to their two big albums, I’m sure we’ll go back to a more balanced set list. Why though should they continue to play a song that no one knows if it’s being met with apathy from the audience, just to please a minuscule number of fans?
Honest question: do you believe a casual fan is going to digest a two-CD sci-fi concept album and invest $100 to see a performance of that live? Or conversely, do you believe that a more serious fan is going to digest a two-CD sci-fi concept album, and pay $100 for a reading of that concept, and will be oblivious to a not-that-obscure b-side or, in this case, unreleased song?
We're not talking about Taylor Swift here.
Sorry Stadler, not being funny but I genuinely don’t understand what you’re asking me there. I’m saying that most people going to see The Astonishing Live would know the material and have heard the album beforehand. Which is entirely different from going to the DOT/SFAM tour and hearing a very very obscure unreleased song which only a very small number of people have ever heard. I’m sure, in many shows, not one single person would know that song. I will stress again that Id personally love to hear it and it’s cool that they included it in the set. I don’t blame them for dropping it though if it was not going over well at the shows they were doing.
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I would be exactly the same as you with an unknown song or improv jam. People are reporting though that there WAS apathy, that people were using it as a bathroom break. I’m just saying, if that was the case, maybe it’s right to drop it rather than have a dead 7 min in the set. Surely they wouldn’t drop it if everyone was into it as you suggest. I’m guessing they were seeing people walking out to the bar, talking to each other, going to the bathroom and not standing there intently taking it in and enjoying it.
Totally agree. I've never heard the song myself. There's really no point in "throwing out a bone" to a small percentage of fans (who are never going to be completely happy with anything the band's doing anyway) at the expense of creating a dead spot in the set.
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There's really no point in "throwing out a bone" to a small percentage of fans (who are never going to be completely happy with anything the band's doing anyway) at the expense of creating a dead spot in the set.
There is something to be said for that. Sometimes I think certain fans are happy if the band plays a rare song they don't even like, just so they can mentally check it off their list as a song the band played.
Let's face it, if the band plays a rare song and sees almost the entire crowd looking bored and a bunch of people heading for the lobby (to get a beer, take a leak, etc.), I can't blame them for not wanting to keep it in the set list. Don't get me wrong, I have been that guy before at concerts where I felt like I was one of like 15 people enjoying a song (U2 playing Zooropa on the last leg of the 360 tour), but I get it if a band doesn't want to play something very obscure that almost no one is going to enjoy.
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Sorry Stadler, not being funny but I genuinely don’t understand what you’re asking me there. I’m saying that most people going to see The Astonishing Live would know the material and have heard the album beforehand. Which is entirely different from going to the DOT/SFAM tour and hearing a very very obscure unreleased song which only a very small number of people have ever heard. I’m sure, in many shows, not one single person would know that song. I will stress again that Id personally love to hear it and it’s cool that they included it in the set. I don’t blame them for dropping it though if it was not going over well at the shows they were doing.
Well, I was going to write that I find it hard to believe a niche band like Dream Theater has a bunch of fans that are way into the 2-CD sci-fi concept record and aren't at least moderately familiar with the rest of the catalogue. Granted, Lupton just proved me wrong at least with respect to DLPM, but we're not limited to just that song. I said Taylor Swift, because I was making the point that the audience isn't there because of radio or Instaface. But maybe a better example is someone like Meatloaf, or Bon Jovi. You're going to get people that go to hear "Paradise By The Dashboard Light" or "Livin' On A Prayer", but may or may not have heard every b-side. I wasn't at this round of shows, but I went to The Astonishing shows, and those were mostly fans that were there to see the latest offering of a band they were more than casually familiar with.
Look I'm not arguing with you; I'm not really invested in guessing what other fans think, but for me it's not really ringing true.
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Sorry Stadler, not being funny but I genuinely don’t understand what you’re asking me there. I’m saying that most people going to see The Astonishing Live would know the material and have heard the album beforehand. Which is entirely different from going to the DOT/SFAM tour and hearing a very very obscure unreleased song which only a very small number of people have ever heard. I’m sure, in many shows, not one single person would know that song. I will stress again that Id personally love to hear it and it’s cool that they included it in the set. I don’t blame them for dropping it though if it was not going over well at the shows they were doing.
Well, I was going to write that I find it hard to believe a niche band like Dream Theater has a bunch of fans that are way into the 2-CD sci-fi concept record and aren't at least moderately familiar with the rest of the catalogue. Granted, Lupton just proved me wrong at least with respect to DLPM, but we're not limited to just that song. I said Taylor Swift, because I was making the point that the audience isn't there because of radio or Instaface. But maybe a better example is someone like Meatloaf, or Bon Jovi. You're going to get people that go to hear "Paradise By The Dashboard Light" or "Livin' On A Prayer", but may or may not have heard every b-side. I wasn't at this round of shows, but I went to The Astonishing shows, and those were mostly fans that were there to see the latest offering of a band they were more than casually familiar with.
Look I'm not arguing with you; I'm not really invested in guessing what other fans think, but for me it's not really ringing true.
I do agree that DT fans are not like fans of mainstream bands and are not turning up expecting the “hits” and that most of them know the whole catalogue. My point was that DLPM is not part of the catalogue. As far as I’m aware, it’s only release is on a fan club exclusive free cd which only a very limited number of people own (me being one of them). It may also have been on the cd which accompanied the special first edition of the Lifting Shadows book, which I also own, I’m not sure. My point is though that this is not a well known and beloved cult fan favourite b-side, it’s something that has never been publicly available unless you were part of the official fan club 20 years ago or bought a limited edition version of their biography however many years ago it was released.
Again though, despite all that, Dream Theater DID include it in the set as they thought the same as you (and me) that DT fans are more knowledgeable than the average fan and would love to hear this rarity as a special treat. From all accounts though, this wasn’t the reaction they got, people instead just saw it as a chance to go to the bar or have a quick bathroom break. I don’t blame them therefore for saying “oh well, we tried it, fans weren’t into it so let’s drop the song and play something else” I’d expect them to do this though with any song, irrespective of whether it was a a rarity, if it was being met with apathy every night, you just take that song out as it’s not working.
I will say that I’m surprised at the fan reaction though as it seems like the kind of thing that historically DT fans would appreciate. Maybe the fanbase has changed a little from us old bastards though and they do want the band to stick to stuff they know off the albums. Sad if that’s the case.
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I would have loved for them to play DLPM at the concert I attended though (I know they didn't because I went on the first leg), would have made me happy (and judging from the YT clips that are out there I clearly would have been), I've been a fan for 21 years btw, is that considered old or seasoned?
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As far as I’m aware, it’s only release is on a fan club exclusive free cd which only a very limited number of people own (me being one of them). It may also have been on the cd which accompanied the special first edition of the Lifting Shadows book, which I also own, I’m not sure. My point is though that this is not a well known and beloved cult fan favourite b-side, it’s something that has never been publicly available unless you were part of the official fan club 20 years ago or bought a limited edition version of their biography however many years ago it was released.
As long as I'm in DLPM's corner, I'd like to point out that as soon as it got featured on Lifting Shadows, it got uploaded to Youtube. The two separate oldest uploads from 11 years ago have 56k and 8.8k views, and it's been uploaded and deleted many times on many other channels, I'm sure. For a subsection of fans I belong to, it is a cult favorite, because it was written by Kevin Moore. That's where I first heard it - I wasn't out buying the first edition of Lifting Shadows, but I was trawling through youtube :angel:
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Why hide the back catalog on super obscure disks that no one's going to hear? Cleaning Out the Closet should be on Dream Theater's Youtube channel to generate interests in the tracks. Use the hardcore fan oriented releases for demos and studio outtakes.
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While I wholeheartedly agree with you in principle, I am not sure CotC is worth trying to generate interest in.
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It's interesting that I don't really know which DT songs I've never heard, as I have all the main catalog and all the live releases (how I heard Another Won, Raise The Knife, To Live Forever). Without actually knowing what tunes are available through the special club releases, the only songs that come to mind that I haven't heard are Eve (saw this on a single), Raw Dog and ... Don't Look Past Me. I probably would not even know of the existence of that tune if it hadn't been you guy's discussion. I'm sure there are many more that I don't even know exist.
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A song I’m sure a lot of people don’t know and I would love to see it live is “Speak to me”. It probably would have the same, if not worst reaction than DLPM though.
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A song I’m sure a lot of people don’t know and I would love to see it live is “Speak to me”. It probably would have the same, if not worst reaction than DLPM though.
Is that a B-side or a YtseJam release?
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I found out pretty early about both Speak to Me (opening track of the Once in a Livetime video) and Don't Look Past Me. I'm a fan since 1999 and I assume I knew about those songs since 2000 at the latest.
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I found out pretty early about both Speak to Me (opening track of the Once in a Livetime video) and Don't Look Past Me. I'm a fan since 1999 and I assume I knew about those songs since 2000 at the latest.
Ah That's right I have that video and have only ever watched it once. I totally forgot about that! Don't remember that song at all. LOL ;D
Thanks for clearing that up. :tup I'm getting so bored with having to Google/Wiki everything these days. And YouTube pisses me off with all of it's lame-o adverts. Much more interesting to hear from actual DT fans.
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It's interesting that I don't really know which DT songs I've never heard, as I have all the main catalog and all the live releases (how I heard Another Won, Raise The Knife, To Live Forever). Without actually knowing what tunes are available through the special club releases, the only songs that come to mind that I haven't heard are Eve (saw this on a single), Raw Dog and ... Don't Look Past Me. I probably would not even know of the existence of that tune if it hadn't been you guy's discussion. I'm sure there are many more that I don't even know exist.
FYI, most - not all, but most - of the "fan club" songs are available in other locations. B-sides are relatively cheaply found on the internet - eBay or Discogs. I think Ytsejam is still selling old stock, so the FII director's cut is available as are the I&W demos/b-sides... I ended up getting "Cleaning..." on eBay for $20 or so for completeness, but I found I knew all but maybe one or two of those songs already.
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FYI, most - not all, but most - of the "fan club" songs are available in other locations. B-sides are relatively cheaply found on the internet - eBay or Discogs. I think Ytsejam is still selling old stock, so the FII director's cut is available as are the I&W demos/b-sides... I ended up getting "Cleaning..." on eBay for $20 or so for completeness, but I found I knew all but maybe one or two of those songs already.
Thanks for the helpful pointers Stadler! :smiley:
But unfortunately my broke ass can't afford shit these days (though I did manage to get some pretty silly "white elephant" gifts for Christmas -- can't wait to see the reactions to those! :lol ). So I'm afraid that pretty much leaves YouTube for me :sad: which I do use quite often but...it's a real test of my patience. I absolutely loathe, detest, hate advertisements with extreme prejudice. Always been that way my whole life. At least when you record things on TV you can fast forward through the commercials. For that reason, I refuse to watch anything in real time. The worst thing about Youtube ads is they pop up completely at random sometimes in the middle of the track. It makes my blood boil!
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The popularity in Chile is wild. Seems like DT is more poppish in South america but less in Europe and US now. In norway is far from sold out.
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The popularity in Chile is wild. Seems like DT is more poppish in South america but less in Europe and US now. In norway is far from sold out.
Depends on the country. They haven't come here (Peru) in almost 10 years because there's just not enough demand and promoters aren't willing to take the chance. Also, there was only one show for Chile and one for Argentina, so most of the fanbase gathers for one show vs other countries where the fans are split on multiple areas/shows.
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Good idea :)
Not so stupid. Denmark, Norway and Sweden should have one concert at a heavy concert scene with 20000 spectators instead of 3-4000 per show in each country :)
Dont think the promoters will like that :P
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You can't compare a 5 million population country with a rather sparse population, with 19 million in Chile, 44 million in Argentina and 211 million in Brazil. Santiago alone has 6 million people (metro)! Buenos Aires has 15 million (metro).
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You can't compare a 5 million population country with a rather sparse population, with 19 million in Chile, 44 million in Argentina and 211 million in Brazil. Santiago alone has 6 million people (metro)! Buenos Aires has 15 million (metro).
Lima, my city, has more than 13 million people and still there isn't enough DT fans :lol
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Good idea :)
Not so stupid. Denmark, Norway and Sweden should have one concert at a heavy concert scene with 20000 spectators instead of 3-4000 per show in each country :)
I hope not, even now most bands skip two out of four Nordic capital cities on about every tour :lol DT is one of the few who had multiple dates per one country. I moved to Norway 3 years ago and I only saw one solo concert by a foreign artists in my city. Thanks, Steven Wilson!
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Does anybody know what the attendance was at the Chile show? That looked like quite an amazing crowd, way to go DT! :metal
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One thing I really missed at the last concert I saw were improvised solos or solos written just for that tour. Something special and unique for the live show that I couldn't see anywhere else. These were elements that made me fall in love with the band after seeing the Metropolis 2000 DVD. I loved how they gave the different members of the band opportunities to shine. Jordan's solo was fantastic as was JP's. It doesn't seem like they are doing this as much anymore.
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Does anybody know what the attendance was at the Chile show? That looked like quite an amazing crowd, way to go DT! :metal
I've tried to find some official (well, at least reported by the press) figures, but I wasn't lucky.
Anyway, I think something around 15,000 could be a good estimation.
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It's interesting that I don't really know which DT songs I've never heard, as I have all the main catalog and all the live releases (how I heard Another Won, Raise The Knife, To Live Forever). Without actually knowing what tunes are available through the special club releases, the only songs that come to mind that I haven't heard are Eve (saw this on a single), Raw Dog and ... Don't Look Past Me. I probably would not even know of the existence of that tune if it hadn't been you guy's discussion. I'm sure there are many more that I don't even know exist.
FYI, most - not all, but most - of the "fan club" songs are available in other locations. B-sides are relatively cheaply found on the internet - eBay or Discogs. I think Ytsejam is still selling old stock, so the FII director's cut is available as are the I&W demos/b-sides... I ended up getting "Cleaning..." on eBay for $20 or so for completeness, but I found I knew all but maybe one or two of those songs already.
Not only is buying a CD from eBay not especially convenient - a lot of people don't have CD players these days! Most new laptops don't even have CD drives.
I feel like I've banged this drum a lot lately, but it's wild that YtseJam is only available in meatspace. It was an incredible idea when it launched, and kind of ahead of its time. We're now in a place where the technology is great, but YJR's still operating the same way it always did. CotC should be a $15 download these days. It feels like leaving money on the table! Let me buy your stuff!!
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It's interesting that I don't really know which DT songs I've never heard, as I have all the main catalog and all the live releases (how I heard Another Won, Raise The Knife, To Live Forever). Without actually knowing what tunes are available through the special club releases, the only songs that come to mind that I haven't heard are Eve (saw this on a single), Raw Dog and ... Don't Look Past Me. I probably would not even know of the existence of that tune if it hadn't been you guy's discussion. I'm sure there are many more that I don't even know exist.
FYI, most - not all, but most - of the "fan club" songs are available in other locations. B-sides are relatively cheaply found on the internet - eBay or Discogs. I think Ytsejam is still selling old stock, so the FII director's cut is available as are the I&W demos/b-sides... I ended up getting "Cleaning..." on eBay for $20 or so for completeness, but I found I knew all but maybe one or two of those songs already.
Not only is buying a CD from eBay not especially convenient - a lot of people don't have CD players these days! Most new laptops don't even have CD drives.
I feel like I've banged this drum a lot lately, but it's wild that YtseJam is only available in meatspace. It was an incredible idea when it launched, and kind of ahead of its time. We're now in a place where the technology is great, but YJR's still operating the same way it always did. CotC should be a $15 download these days. It feels like leaving money on the table! Let me buy your stuff!!
It's all on Youtube anyway :P
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Again - why not DT's official YouTube? At the very least, they'd get ownership. Ad revenue if they wanted! Unless it's an MP rights thing...
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It's interesting that I don't really know which DT songs I've never heard, as I have all the main catalog and all the live releases (how I heard Another Won, Raise The Knife, To Live Forever). Without actually knowing what tunes are available through the special club releases, the only songs that come to mind that I haven't heard are Eve (saw this on a single), Raw Dog and ... Don't Look Past Me. I probably would not even know of the existence of that tune if it hadn't been you guy's discussion. I'm sure there are many more that I don't even know exist.
FYI, most - not all, but most - of the "fan club" songs are available in other locations. B-sides are relatively cheaply found on the internet - eBay or Discogs. I think Ytsejam is still selling old stock, so the FII director's cut is available as are the I&W demos/b-sides... I ended up getting "Cleaning..." on eBay for $20 or so for completeness, but I found I knew all but maybe one or two of those songs already.
Not only is buying a CD from eBay not especially convenient - a lot of people don't have CD players these days! Most new laptops don't even have CD drives.
I feel like I've banged this drum a lot lately, but it's wild that YtseJam is only available in meatspace. It was an incredible idea when it launched, and kind of ahead of its time. We're now in a place where the technology is great, but YJR's still operating the same way it always did. CotC should be a $15 download these days. It feels like leaving money on the table! Let me buy your stuff!!
Well, we can quibble - I buy a shit ton of CDs from eBay, and for me, clicking a mouse here and there is not that taxing - but the point was, they are available if you want them. I'm not a downloader, so for me, the Tool album doesn't exist, but that's ON ME, not the band, or anything else. It's MY DECISION.
I have all the Ytsejam releases; if they went all digital, they would be neutral in customers, because while they may gain you, they would lose me.
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Moving to download doesn't take anything away - the physical versions would still exist for purchase, eBay still exists! As I say, it feels like money on the table.
(Even if I *were* suggesting switching entirely to download, I'd dispute the assertion it'd be net neutral - we're not the only two customers, and people who like physical media have had fifteen years of opportunity to buy the physical versions. And even if it *was* net neutral, there's less cost to the vendor associated with a download than printing and dispatching a CD.)
YtseJam's old-timeyness also disproportionately impacts new fans - who are more likely to listen to music on their tablet or their phone through downloads and streaming... and YouTube, where in fairness they are pretty well catered-to. It's not *the* reason growth is slowing down, but it's a small thing that makes DT feel a bit more legacy.
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IIRC when Ytsejam Records was launched, the agreement between DT and their record label was that they would be limited runs. That might preclude offering them as downloads. What "limited" means, exactly, and whether the agreement is still in effect, given the change of record labels since then, I couldn't say.
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Moving to download doesn't take anything away - the physical versions would still exist for purchase, eBay still exists! As I say, it feels like money on the table.
(Even if I *were* suggesting switching entirely to download, I'd dispute the assertion it'd be net neutral - we're not the only two customers, and people who like physical media have had fifteen years of opportunity to buy the physical versions. And even if it *was* net neutral, there's less cost to the vendor associated with a download than printing and dispatching a CD.)
YtseJam's old-timeyness also disproportionately impacts new fans - who are more likely to listen to music on their tablet or their phone through downloads and streaming... and YouTube, where in fairness they are pretty well catered-to. It's not *the* reason growth is slowing down, but it's a small thing that makes DT feel a bit more legacy.
No argument to any of that.
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IIRC when Ytsejam Records was launched, the agreement between DT and their record label was that they would be limited runs.
That is my recollection as well.
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I think a big effect is lack of radio time. The younger people live and die by spotify or FM or satellite radio and a band like DT just doesn't get air time. Metal as a genre is less popular than it used to be, and all of the other genres seem to be merging with pop, so it's a one-size-fits-all music environment with the rest being the fringe. It's sad, but true.
The ticket prices may be out of range for younger people, but I think they're fair compared to the big name stars out there. They're cheaper than Metallica, Foo Fighters, and any of the "pop" junk out there like Taylor Swift, Justin Timberlake, etc. I think anything under $100 will sell out if there is a market. If they're not selling out its because there just isn't a million teenieboppers begging mom to go see it.
Personally I like smaller venues, so I would prefer DT in a smaller place, but I go to their concerts when they come around just to support and experience the live show. It has always been worth it.
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I think around the promotional period of Distance Over Time, I think I have heard Untethered Angel played a few times on Sirus XM Liquid Metal, which is the big satellite station that plays all the new metal stuff (in contrast to Octane that plays the new mainstream rock stuff. Don't expect DT to get played on Octane though.). Other than that, not much DT is played there. I think I heard Panic Attack once on that station as well. I think that can be par for the course for certain bands that has a solid fanbase, but not a "mainstream" one. Their lead singles get played on the main Sirius XM stations suitable for their genre around the time the album is out and a few weeks after the album is out, those tracks don't get played anymore and it won't be until the next lead single of their next album that you would hear any stuff from that band again.
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One thing I really missed at the last concert I saw were improvised solos or solos written just for that tour. Something special and unique for the live show that I couldn't see anywhere else. These were elements that made me fall in love with the band after seeing the Metropolis 2000 DVD. I loved how they gave the different members of the band opportunities to shine. Jordan's solo was fantastic as was JP's. It doesn't seem like they are doing this as much anymore.
First one that comes to mind for me is the extend version of Hollow Years from the ToT tour back in 04. I'm so glad we got a great version of that on a live release.
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The ticket prices may be out of range for younger people, but I think they're fair compared to the big name stars out there. They're cheaper than Metallica, Foo Fighters, and any of the "pop" junk out there like Taylor Swift, Justin Timberlake, etc. I think anything under $100 will sell out if there is a market. If they're not selling out its because there just isn't a million teenieboppers begging mom to go see it.
Ehhhh... Muse tickets went from £50 on the latest tour, which felt pricey, but they were offering an enormous live show with people abseiling down from the ceiling and dancers and a giant robot that shoots lasers at you.
The same money gets you a balcony seat at a DT show, and I'm just a bit like... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm not *that* stoked to watch them play a full album start to finish from far away. Can't speak to the greater audience, but I'm a pretty big DT fan with disposable income and the value isn't working out for me.
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DT gets featured on all genre-relevant official Spotify playlists, including the big rock and metal ones, as soon as a new single comes out. Loads of people discover artists there. And virtually every kid getting into metal or prog is positioned to try out Dream Theater, they're in every recommendation discussion, usually with a "you'll either love it or hate it" tag, but they are. Loads of people you wouldn't expect to be into DT are, at least casually.
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The dollar probably means something. American artists want a certain amount of dollars to play, but the dollar has become extremely expensive compared to some currencies the last few years. While a dollar still feels like a dollar to an American, it simply doesn't elsewhere. Here in Norway it seems like some artists who would usually show up don't anymore, because the difference between what they want and what people are willing to pay don't match. If your currency goes up by two thirds you can't expect to charge what you used to, it's very basic economics.
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The dollar probably means something. American artists want a certain amount of dollars to play, but the dollar has become extremely expensive compared to some currencies the last few years. While a dollar still feels like a dollar to an American, it simply doesn't elsewhere. Here in Norway it seems like some artists who would usually show up don't anymore, because the difference between what they want and what people are willing to pay don't match. If your currency goes up by two thirds you can't expect to charge what you used to, it's very basic economics.
yeah good point but also prices, Example: Bryan Adams consert with sold out show with 7500 atten. the prices for the tickets is 700-900,-. DT same place with attendace around 3500-4000 is 550- 700,-
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After seeing many photos of DT on their European leg of this tour, it looks like they have reached arena status.. That's awesome that they are well appreciated over there! :metal :metal
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They reached the arena status in my country 20 years ago, but yeah, it's great that they've managed to maintain it to this day.
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I feel like DT’s popularity has remained fairly consistent for the past decade in America.
Frankly, I think it’s amazing they can still fill 2000-2500 seat theaters even in smaller markets considering they haven’t had a “hit” or any media/radio support here since the early 90s. They’ve truly “made it” purely on the strength of the music and live show reputation alone, they somehow managed to survive grunge and then the dark ages of metal in the late 90s/early 00s when many 80s bands were dropping like flies. While metal and technical guitar based music has had a tiny bit of resurgence in the past few years thanks to bandcamp and the renewed interest in vinyl/physical media- it’s still not even a blip on the “commercial” radar. I honestly can’t think of many of their peers who still draw like DT and that is a major testament to the band.
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I think performing Scenes from a memory has a really big part in the ticket sales for this European tour. It would be great to see audiences of same size when they go back to a more balanced set list.