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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Bacong on September 19, 2019, 08:52:04 PM
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what a great chorus it has, and the instrumental section is even interesting!
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I like Outcry, but Pull Me Under is the most underrated by far. People overreact to how often it’s played. Doesn’t change how fantastic it is.
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Just gonna say I feel like ADToE as a whole is underrated. I know it’s regarded well but I place it behind only I&W, Awake, and Met2. It’s just gotten better with age.
Everyone knows “Breaking All Illusions” is classic, but “Outcry” and “Lost Not Forgotten” are prime cuts. “Bridges in the Sky” has one of their best instrumental breakdowns. The album contains some of Petrucci and Ruddess’ tastiest playing. “Far From Heaven” and “Beneath the Surface” are arguably the best ballads DT have written since “Wait for Sleep”.
“This is the Life” is basically a better version of “Out of Reach”.
Hell, even On the Backs of Angels is tolerable compared to a lot of their other “single/radio” tunes. Build Me Up is the only real clunker.
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It's my favourite DT album to date for all these reasons (and I don't even hate BMUBMD).
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Too bad the production is so flat and lifeless. I think this is one of the best DT albums.
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Agreed, it's easily their best album since TOT for me. Shame they have almost gone in a different direction since this album with a focus on shorter songs etc.
However, the production does really hurt this album (even more so with the self titled afterwards) and sucks and power out of the riffs. Imagine Bridges in the Sky with the production of Distance over Time... :metal
It's 6th place for me, only because the other 5 are so great.
1. Scenes/Images/Awake (depending on my mood);
4. Six Degrees
5. Train of Thought;
6. ADTOE
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It took me months to fully grasp Outcry, it was actually my least favorite song on the album initially. But once I started digesting it, I honestly loved every second of it and I still do. It's pretty much flawless.
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I don't think it's underrated, I think its rated appropriately. I like the song a lot, but I wouldn't put it on my top 20.
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I wouldn't say it's the most underrated DT song, but it definitely doesn't get as much praise as it should. Great song, and the instrumental section is WILD!
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It was easily my favorite song from the album during that release and tour cycle, and found its way into my top 10. I think Bridges may have overtaken it now. But still a fantastic song.
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Outcry is certainly one of the more underrated songs in DT's discography. Whether it's *the* most underrated, I'm not sure. Several songs from The Astonishing have redefined the very concept of "underrated" when it comes to DT.
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However, the production does really hurt this album (even more so with the self titled afterwards) and sucks and power out of the riffs. Imagine Bridges in the Sky with the production of Distance over Time... :metal
You mean crank up the bass, compress the hell out of it, and drench some effects over LaBrie’s vocals? No thanks lol
ADoTE has its own flaws but I’ll take it over D/T any day of the week.
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I don't think it's underrated, I think its rated appropriately. I like the song a lot
This.
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Man, I really love this whole album! Yes even BMUBM. And On the Backs of Angels is at the top as well. I guess I am not as musically refined, because the productions issues people talk about are lost on me. I have no professional or extensive music training, just years of piano training as a girl, so I don't notice anything but...do I like it?? This is my favorite album by DT and Outcry is #3 or 4 after BAI and Bridges. I don't skip any songs on this album. :metal
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I agree with others that ADToE is a really fantastic album. This was the album that got me into DT in the first place and it ranks within my top 5 albums. However, Outcry is my least favorite on the album.
When I first bought the album I really liked it and didn't like some of the other songs as much, but that has since flipped. I think I would have liked it more if the intro was not also the chorus. But maybe there's more to it than that. It just doesn't float my boat.
Having said that, I do see it's appeal, it has a really crazy instrumental section (my favorite part of the song) and it has a very strong and catchy chorus. But when it's all together, the sum is less than its parts for me.
It may be underrated for some, but not for me I'm afraid.
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Without giving it too much thought, I'd probably rank the songs on ADTOE thusly:
Breaking All Illusions
Outcry
Bridges in the Sky
On the Backs of Angels
Beneath the Surface
Lost Not Forgotten
BMUBMD
TITL/FFH
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Man, I really love this whole album! Yes even BMUBM.
I'm not sure why that even needs to be qualified with an "even." It's a fantastic song.
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Outcry was the first one off that album that I absolutely loved.
Now I find the middle section a bit too noodly (really, only a minuscule bit).
Currently I would honestly have to say This Is the Life is my absolute favorite from an album of pretty much perfect songs.
I love Bridges, too. I think that may be *the* best opening number.
Breaking All Illusions deserves all the accolades it gets.
BMUBMD is completely underrated.
The rest are awesome too.
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Not to ruin the love fest but I think adtoe is severely overrated. My least favorite dt album. Outside of breaking all illusions I basically never revisit it. Bmubmd is a dud and the worst song on the worst album. The productions is just awful, I can’t get over it.
On the other hand I gave DoT a break for a while and came back to it. Spectacular stuff. I love every song outside of UA and R137. The production is pure ear candy on this album. I really hope they continue with it.
Ok you can all go back to loving ADTOE ;)
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I really don't understand the hate for the production. Maybe not DTs most dynamic sounding album but far from awful.
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I really don't understand the hate for the production. Maybe not DTs most dynamic sounding album but far from awful.
I love the album but it just doesn't have as much of a "metal" sound as I think it should. The guitars and drums just don't have as much attack as I normally like to hear. The best way I can describe it is to picture the album is a cube and the mixer sanded down and softened all the corners. Anyway, that's my personal take.
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what a great chorus it has, and the instrumental section is even interesting!
You may be on to something there.
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I really don't understand the hate for the production. Maybe not DTs most dynamic sounding album but far from awful.
I love the album but it just doesn't have as much of a "metal" sound as I think it should. The guitars and drums just don't have as much attack as I normally like to hear. The best way I can describe it is to picture the album is a cube and the mixer sanded down and softened all the corners. Anyway, that's my personal take.
I totally agree. I just don't see that as a *huge* problem that some do. A problem, nonetheless, just not that big.
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I don't really like Outcry. The instrumental section just comes off as a little... tryhard? Like it's trying to live up to this expectation of 'big wacky DOE-style instrumental section.' Pale Blue Dot kind of veers into that territory *but* I think it comes off as more organic and impressive than Outcry's instrumental section does. The lyrics and vocal melodies don't help. I wouldn't say it's their most underrated song, though. I'd probably give that to something on Falling Into Infinity. Maybe Anna Lee, or Peruvian Skies.
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I don't really like Outcry. The instrumental section just comes off as a little... tryhard? Like it's trying to live up to this expectation of 'big wacky DOE-style instrumental section.' Pale Blue Dot kind of veers into that territory *but* I think it comes off as more organic and impressive than Outcry's instrumental section does.
You got it backwards again, as usual.
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I don't really like Outcry. The instrumental section just comes off as a little... tryhard? Like it's trying to live up to this expectation of 'big wacky DOE-style instrumental section.' Pale Blue Dot kind of veers into that territory *but* I think it comes off as more organic and impressive than Outcry's instrumental section does.
You got it backwards again, as usual.
TAC, you gotta read from left to right.
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I really don't understand the hate for the production. Maybe not DTs most dynamic sounding album but far from awful.
I agree. The drum sound is not great, but that’s been par for the course the last decade.
It’s a much more “natural”, less “processed” sounding album than their latest releases. And to me, that’s a good thing. Much much better sound than D12. But I also dislike the sound of D/T, so take my opinion on the subject with a grain of salt.
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I really don't understand the hate for the production. Maybe not DTs most dynamic sounding album but far from awful.
I love the album but it just doesn't have as much of a "metal" sound as I think it should. The guitars and drums just don't have as much attack as I normally like to hear. The best way I can describe it is to picture the album is a cube and the mixer sanded down and softened all the corners. Anyway, that's my personal take.
I totally agree. I just don't see that as a *huge* problem that some do. A problem, nonetheless, just not that big.
I think you're right. The production is not my favorite, but the album as a whole is awesome and I listen to it frequently.
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what a great chorus it has, and the instrumental section is even interesting!
You may be on to something there.
Don't be a jerk. <3
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what a great chorus it has, and the instrumental section is even interesting!
You may be on to something there.
Don't be a jerk. <3
I'm not. I think I agree with you.
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Outcry was always one of my favorites on the album. Just under BitS and BAI.
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Maybe it's bad to come into a controversial opinion thread and voice a non-controversial opinion (or even an anti-controversial opinion), but it's far from my favorite. I kinda see ADTOE as the beginning of "modern DT" which on the whole has felt more stale than BCASL and prior. I just don't like the sound of this song, or of ADTOE as a whole.
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I really enjoy Outcry as well. I remember many people not liking it or mentioning it much when the album first came out. Than surprised me. Maybe it just took awhile for people to digest it.
I agree with the others who said the production hurt this album.
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I take Dramatic Turn's sound and production over the terrible snare sound of DT12 any day. Sure, if you compare any Dramatic Turn song to the beginning of The Count Of Tuscany you'll ask yourself if there is even a drummer playing on Dramatic Turn. The drum sound doesn't have much character on this album (although I might be one of the few people who like the sound of the cymbals).
I don't understand how such a big band doesn't manage to get a good drum sound. Distance Over Time was an improvement, but I don't think it's anywhere near to what Mangini wants it to sound. I think the kind of snare drum sound he wants is closer to the one on Falling Into Infinity or Haken's Vector. In fact, can they PLEASE hire Adam Getgood for the next album? :lol
Oh, Outcry, sorry. Yes, great song, far from being my favourite on the album though. I like every one of the other 10mins+ songs better. But that doesn't mean much. The whole album is great. I understand if the instrumental section might come across a bit "we-have-to-make-a-crazy-instrumental-section"-like. I personally like it though. Still, the lyrics are a little too cringy/manowar-y for my taste.
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Outcry (along with Build Me Up Break Me Down & Beneath The Surface) are the biggest reason why I can't get through ADTOE without the aid of the skip button.
Sorry to be the bearer of negativity in what's supposed to be a positive thread, but I really have no idea what they were going for. Structurally it's a complete mess. There are so many different types of verses & none of them are placed in a way that feels natural or rewarding. The chorus is okay, but they only play it twice throughout the whole song. That'd be fine if the rest of the song wasn't clearly hinging off its strength. The way the third(?) verse just transitions into the instrumental section is awkward as hell, & makes the entire instrumental section feel more like a distraction rather than the tension it's supposed to be for the final chorus's payoff. Again, that would be fine it wasn't such a clearly chorus-based song. It feels like the sections from The Root Of All Evil but placed within the structure of Metropolis. It just doesn't work.
Speaking of the instrumental section, it's probably DT's worst one yet. Say what you will about the instrumental sections from Endless Sacrifice, The Ministry Of Lost Souls, or A Rite Of Passage, but at least during the sections themselves I could understand which instrument was supposed to be soloing at which time, & what emotion they're supposed to bring. With Outcry I have no idea what I'm supposed to be focussing on at any given point. Everything just kind of happens beside one another, & it feels very cluttered without any instrument taking the lead or driving the song forward. It's a total mess. It gives tension not in the "I'm so excited for what's happening next" way, but more like the "I feel uncomfortable & wish to stop listening immediately" way.
So yeah, Outcry is a bottom 20 DT song for me, & would be my least favourite off ADTOE if Beneath The Surface didn't exist. Fight me. :hat
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Speaking of the instrumental section, it's probably DT's worst one yet. Say what you will about the instrumental sections from Endless Sacrifice, The Ministry Of Lost Souls, or A Rite Of Passage, but at least during the sections themselves I could understand which instrument was supposed to be soloing at which time, & what emotion they're supposed to bring. With Outcry I have no idea what I'm supposed to be focussing on at any given point. Everything just kind of happens beside one another, & it feels very cluttered without any instrument taking the lead or driving the song forward. It's a total mess. It gives tension not in the "I'm so excited for what's happening next" way, but more like the "I feel uncomfortable & wish to stop listening immediately" way.
So yeah, Outcry is a bottom 20 DT song for me, & would be my least favourite off ADTOE if Beneath The Surface didn't exist. Fight me. :hat
I think this is exactly what they wanted. The speciality of Metropolis' instrumental section is that it doesn't contain any solos, but featured everyone playing complex shit at the same time. And it has been suggested before that Dramatic Turn went back to many ideas that were used in a similar way on Images & Words (remember On The Backs/ Pull Me Under; Lost Not Forgotten/ Glass Moon; Breaking All Illusions/ Learning To Live.). In my opinion, Outcry's instrumental breakdown pays tribute to Metropolis' instrumental breakdown in that sense.
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Sorry to be the bearer of negativity in what's supposed to be a positive thread, but I really have no idea what they were going for. Structurally it's a complete mess. There are so many different types of verses & none of them are placed in a way that feels natural or rewarding. The chorus is okay, but they only play it twice throughout the whole song. That'd be fine if the rest of the song wasn't clearly hinging off its strength. The way the third(?) verse just transitions into the instrumental section is awkward as hell, & makes the entire instrumental section feel more like a distraction rather than the tension it's supposed to be for the final chorus's payoff. Again, that would be fine it wasn't such a clearly chorus-based song. It feels like the sections from The Root Of All Evil but placed within the structure of Metropolis. It just doesn't work.
Speaking of the instrumental section, it's probably DT's worst one yet. Say what you will about the instrumental sections from Endless Sacrifice, The Ministry Of Lost Souls, or A Rite Of Passage, but at least during the sections themselves I could understand which instrument was supposed to be soloing at which time, & what emotion they're supposed to bring. With Outcry I have no idea what I'm supposed to be focussing on at any given point. Everything just kind of happens beside one another, & it feels very cluttered without any instrument taking the lead or driving the song forward. It's a total mess. It gives tension not in the "I'm so excited for what's happening next" way, but more like the "I feel uncomfortable & wish to stop listening immediately" way.
So yeah, Outcry is a bottom 20 DT song for me, & would be my least favourite off ADTOE if Beneath The Surface didn't exist. Fight me. :hat
I agree with all of this except your vile heresy about Beneath the Surface. It's just a mess, it's not fun to listen to, it's emblematic of the "DT wankery" stereotype they've developed for themselves, it's tedious, and worst of all completely unnecessary.
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How can you say Outcry is the most underrated DT song when Misunderstood exists?
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I'm a big fan of the song, it is underrated IMO but not sure the most underrated. That's up for debate, I personally would put Blind Faith up there.
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The song has it's good moments. I like the instrumental part quite a bit, but I don't like that the intro is the same as the chorus, and there is just something abou the song that bugs me a little and as a whole it just doesn't grab me all that much. It is my least favorite song on an otherwise stellar album... including Benieth the Surface :biggrin:
And speaking of BtS, I really love the instrumental version. It's very pretty and reminds me of my wife. :tup
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For me it's that incredibly boring and uninspired vocal melody and rhythm, a problem that plagues the first two Mangini era records imo. Like that's the best they could come up with?
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It was easily my favorite song from the album during that release and tour cycle, and found its way into my top 10. I think Bridges may have overtaken it now. But still a fantastic song.
I can never decide whether Bridges or Outcry is the best track on that album. I think they tie.
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Outcry was my favorite for the longest and was easily a top 10 DT song for me, but Bridges eventually overtook it.
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I love the big chorus and melody. I think the crazy instrumental was more cohesive and interesting than the ones on the few albums before. Those were just like play a riff, solo, solo, another riff, solo solo...
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I think the crazy instrumental was more cohesive and interesting than the ones on the few albums before.
Same here. I love basically everything about DT, except when the solo sections get too wankish and too disjointed from the mood of the song, but as crazy as Outcry's solo section is, it never bothered me and it has some pretty cool moments.
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I love the big chorus and melody. I think the crazy instrumental was more cohesive and interesting than the ones on the few albums before. Those were just like play a riff, solo, solo, another riff, solo solo...
I was going to post something similar, there's some really cool sections there and the whole thing is very interesting vs other songs where it was just a 5 minute solo trade off.
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I guess the instrumental wankery in this song has some programmatic purpose. The lyrics talk about standing up and uniting and fighting. Well, maybe the instrumental part is supposed to portray the fight.
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It was easily my favorite song from the album during that release and tour cycle, and found its way into my top 10. I think Bridges may have overtaken it now. But still a fantastic song.
I can never decide whether Bridges or Outcry is the best track on that album. I think they tie.
Outcry was my favorite for the longest and was easily a top 10 DT song for me, but Bridges eventually overtook it.
Although my opinion on Outcry differs a little, I wholehartedly agree about Bridges in the Sky. That is a beast of a song! And imho one of DT's heaviest.
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The more I listened to Outcry the more I began to love and appreciate it.
One of the things I love about DT is how they start a song, take the song in a totally different direction, and then somehow they come back and bring the song "home". I agree that the middle section of this song appears to be chaotic but I always thought it was by design because this song is an anthem describing an uprising from chaos to order (at least in my interpretation).
Even if they are "wanking" (your words not mine) just because they can, then I say go for it! :metal
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The more I listened to Outcry the more I began to love and appreciate it.
One of the things I love about DT is how they start a song, take the song in a totally different direction, and then somehow they come back and bring the song "home". I agree that the middle section of this song appears to be chaotic but I always thought it was by design because this song is an anthem describing an uprising from chaos to order (at least in my interpretation).
Even if they are "wanking" (your words not mine) just because they can, then I say go for it! :metal
it's actually not, once you take the time (pun not intended) to analyse it (I did), you'll see and hear that it's very logical (and of course it's by design as well) One more thing, I'm in it for the wankery, so that section is paradise to me (as it were)
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The more I listened to Outcry the more I began to love and appreciate it.
One of the things I love about DT is how they start a song, take the song in a totally different direction, and then somehow they come back and bring the song "home". I agree that the middle section of this song appears to be chaotic but I always thought it was by design because this song is an anthem describing an uprising from chaos to order (at least in my interpretation).
Even if they are "wanking" (your words not mine) just because they can, then I say go for it! :metal
it's actually not, once you take the time (pun not intended) to analyse it (I did), you'll see and hear that it's very logical (and of course it's by design as well) One more thing, I'm in it for the wankery, so that section is paradise to me (as it were)
Can you elaborate what you mean by "analyse"? In a harmonic/rhythmical/music theoretical way? If so, could you share a bit of that analysis? I'd really like to hear you thoughts on this :)
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The more I listened to Outcry the more I began to love and appreciate it.
One of the things I love about DT is how they start a song, take the song in a totally different direction, and then somehow they come back and bring the song "home". I agree that the middle section of this song appears to be chaotic but I always thought it was by design because this song is an anthem describing an uprising from chaos to order (at least in my interpretation).
Even if they are "wanking" (your words not mine) just because they can, then I say go for it! :metal
it's actually not, once you take the time (pun not intended) to analyse it (I did), you'll see and hear that it's very logical (and of course it's by design as well) One more thing, I'm in it for the wankery, so that section is paradise to me (as it were)
Can you elaborate what you mean by "analyse"? In a harmonic/rhythmical/music theoretical way? If so, could you share a bit of that analysis? I'd really like to hear you thoughts on this :)
rhythmically yes. Disclaimer: it's been a long time since I did (about 8 years ago) and I don't have the written version anymore (I might write it down for myself again at some point though) All that aside, the beginning bit is mainly comprised of measures of 5/16 and and 7/16. Easy innit. This is before the "real" madness will come up. (Moving on from that one, what's tricky about most of what happens afterwards is that some of section is seven measures of 7/8 and they add groups of 16ths to every measure, there is a short clip of MM discussing it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X_Hz9zR2eA
After that is when polyrhythms come in (sometimes with two factors, sometimes with three). Lovely. Then it resolves to 4/4 again. (and then we know what happens: the final two choruses, retardation and a gong hit. That's it, thanks good night) That's a very short version of the thing. I'll write an analysis for myself though for my own interest. I'll post it here if you like (once I'm finished with it) Just so you know: Illumination Theory is similarly hard to play (19 over 6- polyrhyhtms in that one, great). PBD is fairly easy compared to both these (although not necessarily easy. All three are far more difficult to play than say The Dance Of Eternity and harder than quite a lot or anything in the Portnoy era. Sorry to tell you, but MM brought that level of complexity to DT and I love him for it.)
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Technicality is a funny thing. I dunno if it's fair to say those bits are 'way harder' than anything in TDOE given how technically extraordinary TDOE is for all players involved. There are a lot of classical pianists whose works are 'technically' way harder than certain Chopin pieces (like Scriabin or Ravel), which are also technically challenging in their own rights, yet those Chopin pieces can have stretches with the hands that are, quite literally, impossible for some people to play without modifying the original intended bits, even if the piece itself is overall less 'difficult' than the Scriabin etc. MP brought plenty of levels of complexity and technical madness to the group and MM wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for him, so I dunno if it's fair to act like MM is suddenly playing ungodly difficult drum parts and MP wasn't - perhaps that wasn't the intent but that's how I read your post, anyway. Just my two cents.
'sides... debating technical wizardry in art = yaaaaawn. It's like watching two math nerds go at it with quadratic equations and chalkboards. :lol
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Technicality is a funny thing. I dunno if it's fair to say those bits are 'way harder' than anything in TDOE given how technically extraordinary TDOE is for all players involved. There are a lot of classical pianists whose works are 'technically' way harder than certain Chopin pieces (like Scriabin or Ravel), which are also technically challenging in their own rights, yet those Chopin pieces can have stretches with the hands that are, quite literally, impossible for some people to play without modifying the original intended bits, even if the piece itself is overall less 'difficult' than the Scriabin etc. MP brought plenty of levels of complexity and technical madness to the group and MM wouldn't even be there if it wasn't for him, so I dunno if it's fair to act like MM is suddenly playing ungodly difficult drum parts and MP wasn't - perhaps that wasn't the intent but that's how I read your post, anyway. Just my two cents.
'sides... debating technical wizardry in art = yaaaaawn. It's like watching two math nerds go at it with quadratic equations and chalkboards. :lol
it wasn't, no. I just did my best to answer Friedrich's question, although I'm sure I could have done better at it or more elaborate. Silly me. (regarding the differences about MP vs MM: I definitely could hear differences though (what I percieved as vast differences) and what I wished for was that DT can explore more of the fun that The Black Page is for me, or anything that Frank wrote that is rhythmically complex (or similar things to his ideas) and they did, and I'm relieved about it) And I almost always listen analytically, so that's my approach to music (and DT of course). And you're right, technicalty can be percieved as a funny or odd thing. The chalkboard aspect made me chuckle. Thank you very much. I'd love to think of myself as that, a playing math nerd with a chalkboard next to my Ipad with my metronome app on it. Sticking my tongue out in the process too, hehe.
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That was awesome, and I suddenly feel really musically stupid :loser:
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That was awesome, and I suddenly feel really musically stupid :loser:
so do I actually, because if I would be more intelligent I would have been able to analyse a 5 minute instrumental section in 6 minutes and post it all here afterwards. Sorry my brain isn't that fast. Might take me longer than that. (Outcry and Illumination Theory feature my favourite instrumental sections in a DT piece to date nonetheless)
That's what happens to me all the time though, given that my brain is always on (thanks Autism spectrum, no, seriously), I always analyse everything (rhythmically, I'm a drummer, I'm a half-wit harmonically speaking, so I won't speak about that, I'll leave that to people who are more knowledgeable about that than me)
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That was awesome, and I suddenly feel really musically stupid :loser:
so do I actually, because if I would be more intelligent I would have been able to analyse a 5 minute instrumental section in 6 minutes and post it all here afterwards. Sorry my brain isn't that fast. Might take me longer than that. (Outcry and Illumination Theory feature my favourite instrumental sections in a DT piece to date nonetheless)
That's what happens to me all the time though, given that my brain is always on (thanks Autism spectrum, no, seriously), I always analyse everything (rhythmically, I'm a drummer, I'm a half-wit harmonically speaking, so I won't speak about that, I'll leave that to people who are more knowledgeable about that than me)
My oldest daughter is on the spectrum, and she's pretty awesome. If she will be able to do stuff like this some day then I consider myself a pretty lucky dad and I look forward to it :tup.