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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Dave_Manchester on August 18, 2019, 06:38:57 PM
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So I asked in another thread if a thread like this already existed and apparently it doesn't; or at least, not recently.
The Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence thread got me thinking about my favourite DT songs, and this is what I have for my top 10:
1. Octavarium
2. Misunderstood
3. Disappear
4. A Change of Seasons.
5. Trial of Tears
6. Stream of Consciousness
7. In The Name of God
8. The Count of Tuscany
9. Home
10. Breaking All Illusions
Yours?
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01. Octavarium
02. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
03. The Bigger Picture
04. Sacrificed Sons
05. Endless Sacrifice
06. On the Backs of Angels
07. Fatal Tragedy
08. Blind Faith
09. Three Days
10. Hell's Kitchen
At the moment, anyways. The bottom four can be switched out at a moment's notice
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03. The Bigger Picture
Nice to see love for this song. I'm a massive fan of DT12, I think it's one of their masterpieces.
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1. Learning to Live
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Trial of Tears
4. Metropolis pt. 1
5. Six Degrees
6. Surrounded
7. Octavarium
8. Another Day
9. Don't Look Past Me
10. Scarred
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Hard not to just tracklist I&W for my top 8...
1. Learning to Live
2. The Glass Prison
3. A Change of Seasons
4. About to Crash
5. Under A Glass Moon
6. Breaking All Illusions
7. Metropolis Pt 1
8. Strange Deja Vu
9. The Root of All Evil
10. Voices
10. In the Presence of Enemies Pt 1 (edit I had 11 somehow, consider these tied)
ETA: this really made me consider where AWE fits in since it’s tier 1 IMO but not enough to break top 10... and flip side some reflection on what a great song BAI is.
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Bottom 5 are pretty interchangeable to me
1. Learning to Live
2. Metropolis Part 1
2. Scarred
3. Breaking All Illusions
4. Octavarium
5. A Change of Seasons
6. Lie
7. The Glass Prison
8. Fatal Tragedy
9. Pull Me Under
10. Wait for Sleep
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1. Learning To Live
2. Octavarium
3. Scarred
4. The Killing Hand
5. Space Dye Vest
6. Breaking All Illusions
7. Take The Time
8. Lines In The Sand
9. The Count Of Tuscany
10. A Change Of Seasons
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Not really in any order:
1. A Change Of Seasons
2. Scarred
3. Trial of Tears
4. Breaking All Illusions
5. Disappear
6. Speak To Me
7. Lines In The Sand
8. Octavarium
9. Learning To Live
10. Finally Free
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In chronological order:
Another Day
Surrounded
Learning To Live
The Spirit Carries On
Finally Free
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
In The Name Of God
Breaking All Illusions
Surrender To Reason
Fall Into The Light
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1. Learning to Live
2. Metropolis
3. Octavarium
4. In the Name of God
5. Breaking All Illusions
6. Take the Time
7. Illumination Theory
8. In the Presence of Enemies
9. A Change of Seasons
10. The Count of Tuscany
The top 3 are set in stone. The rest all belong in my top 10 as well, though they could move about a little. Sadly, nothing from the last 2 albums gets that close to the list (At Wit's End is probably around 20th). That came after a run of 6 albums in a row from Train of Thought to DT12 of 1 song from each album getting in there.
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Uh, hard to say. For sure the top 4 is consisted of:
Metropolis
A Change of Seasons
Voices
Octavarium
Then I'd love to cheat and mention "Metropolis part 2", otherwise I'd go with something like:
The Mirror
Home
Finally Free
Scarred
Take the Time
Learning to Live
But with so much quality it's even hard to pick the standouts among the countless songs I love so much.
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Only A Matter Of Time
The Killing Hand
Metropolis pt.1
Learning To Live
Under A Glass Moon
Space Dye-Vest
A Change of Seasons
Strange Deja-Vu
Finally Free
Octavarium
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Is awesome to see so much love for Learning To Live, it's such an amazing song (and such a beautifully arranged ending).
My top ten (not in any particular order)
-Learning To Live
-Stream of Consciousness
-At Wits End
-A Change of Seasons
-In The Presence of the Enemies (Pt 1/2)
-Panic Attack
-Lines in the Sand
-Metropolis Pt.1
-The Glass Prison
- Home
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My Top 10:
A Change of Seasons
Metropolis Part I
Scarred
Voices
Under a Glass Moon
In the Name of God
Breaking All Illusions
Learning to Live
The Mirror
Home
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In no order
A Change of Seasons
Octavarium
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (not choosing parts, fight me)
Beneath the Surface
Surrounded
Take the Time
Vacant
6:00
Space-Dye Vest
Hollow Years
This could change in 5 minutes so
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01: Octavarium
02: The Count of Tuscany
03: A Change of Seasons
04: Breaking All Illusions
05: Take the Time
06: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
07: The Dance of Eternity
08: Panic Attack
09: Constant Motion
10: Pale Blue Dot
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Lists like these are so hard.
I'm one of those people that tends to place a heavy emphasis on the band's past - nothing can top Awake, etc.
But if I'm being honest, I find myself digging some of the later albums a whole lot more than I ever thought I would.
For instance, while I'd want to put a song like "Learning To Live" on my list, if I was making a mix to listen to tomorrow morning at the gym, I can't honestly say that it'd make the cut. Not that I don't love LTL, because I do, but after nearly 30 years of jamming that song, I realize that it's gotten edged out.
So, with all of that being said, and using my 'I'm gonna listen to this playlist right now!' criteria, here are my top 10 DT songs:
1: Octavarium
2: ITPOE (pt. 1 & 2 - I do consider them a whole song and always listen back to back)
3: Trial Of Tears
4: 6 Degrees
5: A Life Left Behind (My fav Mangini-era song - if only there were a handful more like this on TA)
6: To Live Forever (the 'OIALT' version from the Rotterdam show is actually my most listened to DT track according to Itunes)
7: Lines In The Sand
8: Home
9: Bridges In The Sky
10: Voices
Blowing my mind, because this list does not really follow my ablum rankings at all, but I suppose that's for another thread!
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Extremely difficult to do. I've managed to whittle it down, but I can't say whether this is my definite top 10 list or not, because I could easily flip flop on several of them with others that I also really enjoy, including a couple from the MM-era (somebody wake up Bosk - I'm sure he just passed out reading that). :P
Anyway, here's what I came up with. All are just in chronological order, aside from LtL, which is my favorite DT track of all time:
Learning to Live
Light Fuse and Get Away
The Mirror (complete with reprise)
Space Dye Vest
A Change of Seasons
Lines in the Sand
Home
The Glass Prison
Disappear
The Count of Tuscany
Blowing my mind, because this list does not really follow my ablum rankings at all, but I suppose that's for another thread!
Agreed - same with me.
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I'm not sure if I can really put much of an order on my top 10, so I will just list them without numbers.
In the Presence of Enemies (entire song and this is actually my very favorite DT song and probably always will be)
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
Trial of Tears
Bridges in the Sky
Sacrificed Sons
Moment of Betrayal
The Great Debate
Beyond this Life
In the Name of God
I didn't include any from D/T because the album is still very new and I don't know how to rank it yet.
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Not really in order apart from LTL which remains my number 1 DT song.
1. Learning To Live
2. A Change Of Seasons
3. Metropolis Pt 1
4. Illumination Theory
5. Breaking All Illusions
6. Space Dye Vest
7. The Spirit Carries On
8. Trial of Tears
9. Take The Time
10. A Fortune In Lies
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Learning to Live
Light Fuse and Get Away
The Mirror (complete with reprise)
Space Dye Vest
A Change of Seasons
Lines in the Sand
Home
The Glass Prison
Disappear
The Count of Tuscany
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTVufX5E5KenPKIIcKFhgjNgXhEfeBjZTgqozkFrs3bNQbu_NDF)
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A Mind Beside Itself
Scarred
Learning to Live
Metropolis
Take the Time
Trial of Tears
In the Name of God
A Change of Seasons
Fatal Tragedy
Misunderstood
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I'll take the chronological order approach. I know which song is number 1, but the rest I'm not so sure
Surrounded
Learning to Live
Lifting Shadows off a Dream
Hell's Kitchen
Strange Deja Vu
Home
Blind Faith
Solitary Shell
Bridges in the Sky
Breaking all Illusions
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You’re all going to think I’m weird.
1. Lines in the Sand
2. 6:00
3. Caught in a Web
4. The Count of Tuscany (filed under “funny as hell”)
5. Pull Me Under
6. Scarred
7. Anna Lee
8. New Millennium
9. Home
10. Don’t Look Past Me
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A Mind Beside Itself
That's cheating :biggrin:
1. Octavarium - also being my favorite song of all-time by any act.
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Metropolis Pt. 1
4. Learning to Live
5. Surrounded
6. In The Name of God
7. Scarred
8. Endless Sacrifice
9. Breaking All Illusions
10. Take the Time
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Extremely difficult to do. I've managed to whittle it down, but I can't say whether this is my definite top 10 list or not, because I could easily flip flop on several of them with others that I also really enjoy, including a couple from the MM-era (somebody wake up Bosk - I'm sure he just passed out reading that).
All that. And I also have to * my list and say that, while it is possible that a song or maybe two from d/t might make the cut, I don't typically include songs from whatever the latest album is whenever doing such a ranking. The songs are still too fresh and new. So here's my list, with a bit of explanation:
1. Six Degrees: I am conflicted about this. It does have a few parts that I'm not in love with, whereas my #2 and #3 choices are solid from start to finish. So I kind of feel like #2 and #3 are more solid. But I just boil it down to this: Sometimes, more is just more.
2. A Change of Seasons: If we are limited to studio versions, this song might actually slip down a couple of spots. But the live performance on LSFNY is perfection. The passion of that performance was and is a defining moment in my DT fandom and holds a VERY special place in my heart.
3. Octavarium: Perfection from start to finish. And I love how the song explores its theme in so many different ways and gets so "meta" in different levels.
4. Metropolis: Pull Me Under was the first song I heard and the first song that hooked me. Metropolis was the first song from them that really bent my mind and got me to think about music in a different way. In many ways, it was and is the "definitive" DT song. It really captures everything the band is about.
5. Lines in the Sand: This song really brought out a different side of DT. And I realize that a lot of that was Derek's influence and a perfect storm of events. But sometimes, that's how great songs are written.
6. Scarred: The herky-jerky transitions really put me off this song for the longest time. But once I got over it, the raw power and many layers of this song really floored me.
7. Bridges in the Sky: Such atmosphere, and so many emotions captured musically. I just love it.
8. The Mirror: Simple song, by DT standards. But it is powerful and effective. I love the version on LSFNY with the bits that became Lie re-introduced back into this song. That really took it to another level for me.
9. Trial of Tears: So many moods in this song, and all of them cool. This is one of those songs that simply paints a lot of different pictures in your mind and is more about moods than particular subjects, and it works.
10. Home: That whole intro leading up to the first vocal passage is one of my favorite DT moments of all time. The verses and chorus are fantastic. The instrumental break really takes you on a journey, and I love how, by the end of it, you are about a million miles away from the main musical themes of the song, and them it seamlessly brings you right back. If not for the porn samples, this might be top 5.
Some honorable mentions: Take Away My Pain, The Glass Prison, In the Name of God, Panic Attack, Forsaken, Constant Motion, A Nightmare To Remember, Outcry, Beneath the Surface, The Bigger Picture, Behind the Veil, Along for the Ride, S2N, At Wit's End
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A Mind Beside Itself
That's cheating :biggrin:
Haha, maybe, but if some can count the two In the Presence of Enemies tracks as one song, or The Mirror with the reprise at the end of another as one song, or Six Degrees as one song, then I can count A Mind Beside Itself as one song. :hat
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8. The Mirror: Simple song, by DT standards. But it is powerful and effective. I love the version on LSFNY with the bits that became Lie re-introduced back into this song. That really took it to another level for me.
That version is also cool because of very effective background vocals by Mike. He can sometimes be over the top with his contributions (see Razor's Edge on Chaos in Motion), but the aggressive way he spits out "Hypocrite" and the rising "RrreeeeSISTANCE" are totally on point and badass.
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A Mind Beside Itself
That's cheating :biggrin:
Haha, maybe, but if some can count the two In the Presence of Enemies tracks as one song, or The Mirror with the reprise at the end of another as one song, or Six Degrees as one song, then I can count A Mind Beside Itself as one song. :hat
No
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I agree... Six Degrees is ONE SONG, with 8 tracks. Same with ITPOE... one song, 2 parts/tracks (just because they are non-sequential doesn't make it a different song).
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I'm not even sure how The Mirror factors in. That one utterly confuses me.
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I'm not even sure how The Mirror factors in. That one utterly confuses me.
Exactly, being that it is a continuation of the Mirror. I think Shmev must have forgotten that DT decided to insert a song (Lie) within another song (The Mirror). Really, the single edit of Lie is the whole song - the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 on Awake is actually The Mirror, not Lie.
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I'm not even sure how The Mirror factors in. That one utterly confuses me.
Exactly, being that it is a continuation of the Mirror. I think Shmev must have forgotten that DT decided to insert a song (Lie) within another song (The Mirror). Really, the single edit of Lie is the whole song - the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 on Awake is actually The Mirror, not Lie.
Mh, I've never looked at it this way.
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Didn't think I was going to be able to do this.
In no particular order:
Metropolis
Learning to Live
Scarred
A Change of Seasons
Home
Blind Faith
SDOIT
Octavarium
Breaking All Illusions
Illumination Theory
Honorable mention: Stream of Consciousness
I'm not even sure how The Mirror factors into a top 10 list. That one utterly confuses me.
Ditto.
The Mirror would probably be in (or very close to) my bottom 10 list.
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The Mirror would probably be in (or very close to) my bottom 10 list.
Well, that's the good thing about you having been here awhile. You have enough of a posting history for me to know for certain that you have been wrong about a good many things. :biggrin:
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Difficult question...
In no particular order.
This is the Life
In the Presence of Enemies, Pt. 1: Prelude/Resurrection
The Mirror
Forsaken
The Looking Glass
Endless Sacrifice
A Change of Seasons
Pale Blue Dot
Erotomania
Take the Time
so difficult. I could add ten more or swap some for others even. depends a lot on mood.
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Exactly, being that it is a continuation of the Mirror. I think Shmev must have forgotten that DT decided to insert a song (Lie) within another song (The Mirror). Really, the single edit of Lie is the whole song - the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 on Awake is actually The Mirror, not Lie.
I didn't forget that, but if the end of Lie was actually the end of The Mirror, I feel like it would have been called that on the album sleeve, no? Semantics, I know, but when I discuss the greatness of The Mirror, which is one that is really close to my top 10 yet just misses out, I do not consider the end of Lie on the Awake CD as part of the song.
Semantics aside, it does make for a killer 13 minutes plus listening experience to listen to The Mirror and Lie and then get the Mirror reprise at the end of it. :metal :metal
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Exactly, being that it is a continuation of the Mirror. I think Shmev must have forgotten that DT decided to insert a song (Lie) within another song (The Mirror). Really, the single edit of Lie is the whole song - the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 on Awake is actually The Mirror, not Lie.
I didn't forget that, but if the end of Lie was actually the end of The Mirror, I feel like it would have been called that on the album sleeve, no? Semantics, I know, but when I discuss the greatness of The Mirror, which is one that is really close to my top 10 yet just misses out, I do not consider the end of Lie on the Awake CD as part of the song.
Yeah it is semantics, and I think it was just easier to list it as they did. Even when it comes to the setlists that MP wrote up, it never mentioned "Mirror (reprise)" after Lie, whether The Mirror was played before it or not. But the reality is that it's a continuation of The Mirror and is noted as such when Lie is not played: "The Mirror (w/ reprise)". That said, I understand why they always play the reprise following Lie, because most fans don't pay attention to such details and it is a much more killer ending than if they just stopped playing Lie at the 5 minute mark. That said, for once, I would love to see the band play Lie (as in what is known as the single edit) early in the set, and The Mirror w/reprise later, just to mess with the audience a little. :biggrin:
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I'm still really confused about what point Kev is trying to raise about that though. What is the issue? The end of Lie isn't part of The Mirror. Just like the reprises of parts of Metropolis pt. I in Home and The Dance of Eternity aren't parts of Metropolis pt. I. Or the parts of Learning To Live that reprise the melody from Wait For Sleep don't somehow make Learning To Live part of Wait for Sleep. Again, not sure what you are trying to say, Kev. I don't see where the issue is.
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I'm still really confused about what point Kev is trying to raise about that though. What is the issue? The end of Lie isn't part of The Mirror.
Can't explain Shmev, but actually the end of Lie is part of The Mirror. If you listen to the demo, you'll hear what you know as The Mirror, plus about 2 minutes instrumentally of what you know as Lie, before going into what we refer to now as the reprise. *That* was The Mirror in it's original form. Then the guys decided to take that instrumental 2 minutes and expand that into a song of it's own (Lie). Which they then demoed, without the reprise (sounds like the single edit). When MP added The Mirror to the set in 2000 without Lie, he excised all of Lie (including that 2 minutes) so that it was purely The Mirror. That's why it flows so well - because it's part of the song.
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Yes, I know. And stuff like that happens during the writing process. But as recorded, it became two separate songs. Yes, they share quite a bit, including the direct reprise. But...again, what exactly is the issue there?
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I get what Scotty is saying, but regardless of how it was on the demo, the final draft that ended up on the album had what I presume was the original ending of The Mirror now becoming the end of Lie.
My original point, of course, was to the "cheating" Chad chided me about regarding my pick as A Mind Beside Itself as a single song, and how others had taken similar liberties to call multiple tracks (as indexed on their respective CD's) a single song. Again, it's semantics.
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The Mirror would probably be in (or very close to) my bottom 10 list.
Well, that's the good thing about you having been here awhile. You have enough of a posting history for me to know for certain that you have been wrong about a good many things. :biggrin:
Cute.... :P
I'm still really confused about what point Kev is trying to raise about that though. What is the issue? The end of Lie isn't part of The Mirror.
Can't explain Shmev, but actually the end of Lie is part of The Mirror. If you listen to the demo, you'll hear what you know as The Mirror, plus about 2 minutes instrumentally of what you know as Lie, before going into what we refer to now as the reprise. *That* was The Mirror in it's original form. Then the guys decided to take that instrumental 2 minutes and expand that into a song of it's own (Lie). Which they then demoed, without the reprise (sounds like the single edit). When MP added The Mirror to the set in 2000 without Lie, he excised all of Lie (including that 2 minutes) so that it was purely The Mirror. That's why it flows so well - because it's part of the song.
I guess I'm glad that I think these are the two worst songs on Awake because trying to follow this is giving me a headache!
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1) Octavarium
2) In the Name of God
3) The Count of Tuscany
4) A Change of Seasons
5) At Wit's End
6) The Spirit Carries On
7) Home
8) Blind Faith
9) Solitary Shell
10) Lifting Shadows off a Dream
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Someone should chart these.
Learning to Live
Voices
A Change of Seasons
Finally Free
Disappear
Endless Sacrifice
Octavarium
In the Presence of Enemies
Beneath the Surface
At Wit's End
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RE- The Mirror.
Just listen to the Live Scenes from New York version to hear what The Mirror was like in its original form, and you will understand exactly what we're talking about. The Mirror is a top 10 all time best DT song, and Lie is an all time worst DT song. That's why I've re-edited it in Audacity so that The Mirror is in its original form and Lie is gone.
1. Six Degrees
2. Octavarium
3. A Change of Seasons
4. The Glass Prison
5. Beyond This Life
6. The Mirror
7. Learning to Live
8. Lifting Shadows off a Dream
9. Fatal Tragedy
10. Scarred
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Got to say that I’ve been a fan of DT for about 25 years and I was not aware that the end of Lie was not considered as part of that song but was actually the end of The Mirror. Don’t get me wrong, it’s clearly similar to the point where it took me a while to see where The Mirror ended and Lie began but I’ve never seen Lie listed as Lie (inc The Mirror reprise). It may be that way on the demo and they may have done it live but I would argue, for the purposes of picking a top 10, The Mirror is as it is on the album. Wasn’t Hells Kitchen and Burning My Soul originally conceived as one song and sometimes played live in that format? I’d still argue it’s two separate songs as that’s the way it was eventually given to us on the album. I think ITPOE is a little different as that is one song split purely for sequencing reasons (too big of a hump to get over to open the album and too formulaic to close with another epic after a run of them on previous albums).
For the record I love the end of Lie (not the song itself though) and wish it had just been left as part of The Mirror. It would totally enhance The Mirror and remove the need to listen to Lie.
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Yes, I know. And stuff like that happens during the writing process. But as recorded, it became two separate songs.
No, it's a continuation of The Mirror, even if under a different track number. Same exact thing as what they did with ItPoE except there they inserted the rest of the album in between the two parts of the song, instead of just one song. :)
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Yes, I know. And stuff like that happens during the writing process. But as recorded, it became two separate songs.
No, it's a continuation of The Mirror, even if under a different track number. Same exact thing as what they did with ItPoE except there they inserted the rest of the album in between the two parts of the song, instead of just one song. :)
While I completely understand what happened in the writing process, I stand behind Peter Mc's reasoning about Hell's Kitchen. Yeah, we know the first part was in Burning My Soul, but I consider BMS being BMS and HK being HK. So I think of The Mirror as The Mirror and Lie as Lie, not as The Mirror - Lie - The Mirror (reprise) (we don't write it on the sleeve or in the inner notes but that's the way it is). We're talking anyway of an album full of reprises here and there, with Erotomania being basically made up of riffs from the other songs, and the SDV motif appearing in The Mirror.
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@ Scotty... I've honestly never heard anyone say the end of Lie is actually part of The Mirror until you mentioned it. Is it in the sleeve anywhere (serious question)? I don't think it can be compared to ITPOE Pt1 and Pt2. The band specifically called it out as the same song with different parts. There's no such indication of the relationship between The Mirror and Lie. I'm with Bosk on this, and am confused about any suggestion that they are NOT two separate songs. I hear your points, and doubt you can make yourself any clearer - but am still not following.
:dunno:
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A Change of Seasons
Metropolis
Under a Glass Moon
Surrounded
The Great Debate
In The Name of God
Breaking All Illusions
The Count of Tuscany
Only a Matter of Time
Illumination Theory
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@ Scotty... I've honestly never heard anyone say the end of Lie is actually part of The Mirror until you mentioned it. Is it in the sleeve anywhere (serious question)? I don't think it can be compared to ITPOE Pt1 and Pt2. The band specifically called it out as the same song with different parts. There's no such indication of the relationship between The Mirror and Lie. I'm with Bosk on this, and am confused about any suggestion that they are NOT two separate songs. I hear your points, and doubt you can make yourself any clearer - but am still not following.
:dunno:
Let's go by what is written in the liner notes to the Awake Demos official bootleg. Just including what's pertinent. Here's what's said about The Mirror:
As you'll hear on this demo, the music for the final part of The Mirror, which later ended up becoming Lie, was originally intended to simply be a part of this single song.
Now that comment *may* suggest that what you and Bosk are saying is correct - that the final "reprise" *was* a part of The Mirror originally, but now is a part of Lie. But consider the comments for Lie:
We decided to develop the ideas at the end of The Mirror into something that would be a separate song on its own but yet would still sit in the middle of The Mirror. So we extended some of the riffs into multiple verses and choruses and wrote a bridge and a solo section to create what would end up being the lead off single from Awake.
The bolded part of this quote makes it quite clear what the band was doing: writing a song that was inserted within another song. The comment about "the final part of The Mirror, which later ended up becoming Lie" in the first quote was in reference to the section of the song that was developed into Lie (time stamp 6:43 to 8:32 on the demo) and was *not* referring to the final 1.5 minutes which were not expanded or altered at all.
Therefore, the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 on Awake is really The Mirror, not Lie even tho it's not labeled as such or tracked separately from Lie.
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This isn't a shot at you Scotty. I respect you as much as anyone on this forum. But I don't care what the band thought or wanted or intended. I treat albums are exactly as they are released.
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@ Scotty... I've honestly never heard anyone say the end of Lie is actually part of The Mirror until you mentioned it. Is it in the sleeve anywhere (serious question)? I don't think it can be compared to ITPOE Pt1 and Pt2. The band specifically called it out as the same song with different parts. There's no such indication of the relationship between The Mirror and Lie. I'm with Bosk on this, and am confused about any suggestion that they are NOT two separate songs. I hear your points, and doubt you can make yourself any clearer - but am still not following.
:dunno:
Let's go by what is written in the liner notes to the Awake Demos official bootleg. Just including what's pertinent. Here's what's said about The Mirror:
As you'll hear on this demo, the music for the final part of The Mirror, which later ended up becoming Lie, was originally intended to simply be a part of this single song.
Now that comment *may* suggest that what you and Bosk are saying is correct - that the final "reprise" *was* a part of The Mirror originally, but now is a part of Lie. But consider the comments for Lie:
We decided to develop the ideas at the end of The Mirror into something that would be a separate song on its own but yet would still sit in the middle of The Mirror. So we extended some of the riffs into multiple verses and choruses and wrote a bridge and a solo section to create what would end up being the lead off single from Awake.
The bolded part of this quote makes it quite clear what the band was doing: writing a song that was inserted within another song. The comment about "the final part of The Mirror, which later ended up becoming Lie" in the first quote was in reference to the section of the song that was developed into Lie (time stamp 6:43 to 8:32 on the demo) and was *not* referring to the final 1.5 minutes which were not expanded or altered at all.
Therefore, the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 on Awake is really The Mirror, not Lie even tho it's not labeled as such or tracked separately from Lie.
You know, this whole discussion is one of the reasons why I love DT so much. Some people look at a song in a certain way, and sometimes in a way I hadn't thought of before, with evidence and reasoning and others will look at the same song and argue the opposite point with evidence and reasoning.
I think we've definately entered a DT philosophical/Technical mosh pit. :xbones
Way entertaining! :corn
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This isn't a shot at you Scotty. I respect you as much as anyone on this forum. But I don't care what the band thought or wanted or intended. I treat albums are exactly as they are released.
No harm, no foul. No offense taken. What you're saying is fine - you can believe whatever you want to believe. But really that's your interpretation as opposed to what would be considered official fact. Kinda like understanding/interpreting lyrics. You can read all sorts of things into lyrics that are legit, because of what words are used. But that still doesn't mean that's what the band was conveying in the song. Reminds me how a bunch of people on MP.com originally ASSumed that Train of Thought was going to be a Christian album based strictly on the song titles when they were first released and the fact that MP had been working with Neal Morse. But I digress...
By your comment, I would guess you consider the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 to be a part of Lie, correct? What if that section had been made track 9? Would that change your opinion? Better yet, what are your feelings on ItPoE and the title track to SDoIT? On SC, ItPoE was broken up into 2 tracks - so does that make it 2 separate songs? And SDoIT was broken up into 8 tracks - so does that mean it is 8 songs that are linked together? By that reasoning, yes. But then consider how ItPoE is one track on Chaos in Motion and SDoIT is a single track on Score. How do you explain that? That conflicts with that mentality of believing according to how it's released. So, IMO, in this sort of situation, the safest way to go is by what the band says/intends as opposed to personal interpretations based on how it's released or some other arbitrary way.
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I really don’t think the ITPOE or SDOIT examples are comparable. They are clearly labelled as being parts of the same song. The reasons for splitting ITPOE on the album were clearly explained at the time of release and are widely known. It would make a difference if, as you suggested, that instrumental section was track 9 and called ‘The Mirror reprise’ or track 8 was called ‘Lie/The Mirror Reprise’ or even in the lyric booklet at the end of the Lie lyrics, it said The Mirror reprise. I think the comparison here is the Burning My Soul / Hell’s Kitchen situation which were conceived as one song and then split into two for the final product. They are now considered two separate songs.
Like I said, I’ve been a fan of DT from around the time ACOS was released, I’ve read pretty much anything there was to read and, until you mentioned this, I was not aware of it. I’m not doubting what you read in the liner notes regarding the Awake demos and the two songs have clear links but in the finished product they have been presented to us as two separate songs in terms of them being separate tracks on the album and different song titles.
In the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t really matter but, as much as I would love that solo at the end of The Mirror, I will always consider it as part of Lie.
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I really don’t think the ITPOE or SDOIT examples are comparable. They are clearly labelled as being parts of the same song. The reasons for splitting ITPOE on the album were clearly explained at the time of release and are widely known.
I can't speak for Cool Chris, because I don't know his personal feelings, but I know that there are some people on this forum that would argue that they consider both ItPoE and SDoIT to consist of multiple songs instead of being single songs that were split up for tracking purposes.
It would make a difference if, as you suggested, that instrumental section was track 9 and called ‘The Mirror reprise’ or track 8 was called ‘Lie/The Mirror Reprise’ or even in the lyric booklet at the end of the Lie lyrics, it said The Mirror reprise.
But here's the thing - if that were true, then why on LSFNY is track 5 of CD2 listed simply as "The Mirror"? Shouldn't it be "The Mirror/Lie" or "The Mirror/Lie outro"? And shouldn't it be 2 separate tracks instead of 1?
I think the comparison here is the Burning My Soul / Hell’s Kitchen situation which were conceived as one song and then split into two for the final product. They are now considered two separate songs.
Sorry, but I disagree with comparing The Mirror and Lie to BMS and HK. Quite frankly, there is no argument that BMS and HK are separate songs, because that's what the band intended and has expressly stated. Yes, originally the first part of HK was in the middle of BMS, but then Kevin Shirley talked them into editing it out. Instead of leaving it on the cutting room floor, the band decided to write a new outro for that instrumental section so that it would be a *separate* and *complete* song that would perfectly transition from BMS into LitS. You can play BMS by itself and it sounds like a complete song. You can play HK by itself and it sounds like a complete song.
On the other hand, if you were to set track 7 on Awake to play by itself, it sounds incomplete. Why? Because it is not a complete song. But tack on the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 and it does become a complete song. OTOH, play only the first 5 minutes of track 8 and hit stop and it sounds like a complete song - you don't need the last 1.5 minutes to complete it. So even the way track 7 and 8 are arranged (in terms of songwriting) provide evidence that Lie was a song that was inserted into the middle of The Mirror as MP expressly stated in the Awake demos liner notes.
Like I said, I’ve been a fan of DT from around the time ACOS was released, I’ve read pretty much anything there was to read and, until you mentioned this, I was not aware of it. I’m not doubting what you read in the liner notes regarding the Awake demos and the two songs have clear links but in the finished product they have been presented to us as two separate songs in terms of them being separate tracks on the album and different song titles.
You're in the same boat as me in terms of reading anything and everything DT related. But please don't take this the wrong way, because I'm not trying to make myself "better" than you, but I've also had numerous discussions with MP both in person and via e-mail about a million different DT-related topics, and I know at least one of them had been related to The Mirror since it not only is one of my favorite songs, but also because I remember reading about the original demo of the song in one of the first issues of the Images and Words fanzine and how it was 10 minutes long, included an excerpt of what became Lie, blah blah blah... and I wanted to know the full story about it.
In the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t really matter but, as much as I would love that solo at the end of The Mirror, I will always consider it as part of Lie.
No, it doesn't really matter. But you can believe that the solo at the end is The Mirror and is not Lie because the band says so. ;)
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Scotty, I read the additional information you cited, and I understand it completely. And I still have no idea how you reach the conclusion you reach. But, hey, there are those that reach one conclusion from the evidence, and there are those that are wrong. :dunno:
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A few points to respond to Scotty - again, with much respect cuz you've probably forgotten more about DT than I've ever known.
You cite your evidence from the Demo liner notes. Demo. How many demos from how many bands over the history of music evolved out of one thing and into something completely different. Just cuz it's in the demo liner notes (official or not) doesn't mean the intentions translate on to the formal studio release.
Second "what if"? What if my aunt had balls - she'd be my uncle. (it's a totally dumb analogy that I heard once and constantly use - makes no sense really). But "what if" is a pretty weak point to justify a position.
Lastly tracks =/= songs. Usually they do, but not always. Songs are often cut into multiple tracks. And multiple songs can be cut into one track.
Look, your views on the matter are cool, I an't bothered over it. I just don't see that reasoning your providing adds up.
Ninja'd... haven't gone through that last post.
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I don't consider In the Presence of Enemies to be one song; it is two. Even if it was written originally to be one, it was broken up into two and released that way. Think of it like the Kill Bill movies, which were eventually broken up into two films as well.
Scotty, I don't think what the band says is what should be written in stone. When art is release to the masses, it is normal for the masses to categorize it accordingly. Steven Wilson pushed back in his early days at the first few Porcupine Tree albums being called prog, but most called it prog, so it was prog. I mean, if JP came out tomorrow and said, "Honor Thy Father is a rap song," would that make it rap? Nope.
Despite my "cheat" earlier in this thread, I think of A Mind Beside Itself in the same way I do Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: a suite of songs that ties together (mostly) nicely, but isn't really a single song. And in both cases, the band has labeled it as such on live releases (AMBI on Live Scenes, 6DOIT on Score).
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I listened a little more closely to Lie and until it was mentioned here, I didn't know that the end of the song was originally part of The Mirror in the demo version (I never listened to it). Although I do think that the final version on the album is basically a final statement by the band, I do think I will try editing the two songs in Audacity just to see what I personally think.
I have done this with other songs, so it won't be anything new to me. I've edited the end of IT into it's own track, I've edited 6DoIT and ITPoE into single continuous songs (because of shuffle), I've also edited a few songs on TA to combine them because I think they sound better as single songs (Descent of the Nomacs/Dystopian Overture, A Savior in the Square/When Your Time Has Come, The Walking Shadow/My Last Farewell). On Scenes I also edited off the end of Strange Deja Vu and the beginning of Fatal Tragedy and put them on Through My Words.
I know the band probably never intended any of these changes I made, but I feel it enhances my personal DT listening experience.
I guess I like cleaner transitions than DT has given me sometimes :biggrin:. And who knows, maybe I will like The Mrror and Lie edited too. I'm certainly willing to give it a try regardless of what the band intended.
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I tried that years ago for shits and giggles, combining The Mirror and the end of Lie, to see if it worked, but it didn't. It runs together rhythmically, yes, but the way that heavy guitar at the end of The Mirror suddenly drops out as the transition is made sounded very unnatural and just didn't work.
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I've also edited a few songs on TA to combine them because I think they sound better as single songs (Descent of the Nomacs/Dystopian Overture, A Savior in the Square/When Your Time Has Come, The Walking Shadow/My Last Farewell).
Fun fact: The second one (Savior/Time) was actually a single track on the promo version of the album, and was only split on the final version. I was actually momentarily confused when the album dropped and they were split. :lol
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I've also edited a few songs on TA to combine them because I think they sound better as single songs (Descent of the Nomacs/Dystopian Overture, A Savior in the Square/When Your Time Has Come, The Walking Shadow/My Last Farewell).
Fun fact: The second one (Savior/Time) was actually a single track on the promo version of the album, and was only split on the final version. I was actually momentarily confused when the album dropped and they were split. :lol
Hey, that is cool! I guess I'm not completely crazy then :)
I tried that years ago for shits and giggles, combining The Mirror and the end of Lie, to see if it worked, but it didn't. It runs together rhythmically, yes, but the way that heavy guitar at the end of The Mirror suddenly drops out as the transition is made sounded very unnatural and just didn't work.
Hmm, that's too bad. Well, I'll give it a try anyway just because I like messing with songs in Audacity. But, I'll probably come to the same conclusion you did.
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Scotty, I read the additional information you cited, and I understand it completely. And I still have no idea how you reach the conclusion you reach. But, hey, there are those that reach one conclusion from the evidence, and there are those that are wrong. :dunno:
...and it's time for you to finally admit that you're wrong even if you don't understand. :biggrin:
How many demos from how many bands over the history of music evolved out of one thing and into something completely different. Just cuz it's in the demo liner notes (official or not) doesn't mean the intentions translate on to the formal studio release.
Except for the fact that what I quote above come from the liners MP wrote many years *after* the fact, where he explains the process behind what was done and how the songs were altered when comparing the demo versions to what appears on the album. What I cited above is MP explaining how the song Lie developed from part of The Mirror into what appeared *on the album* not what is on the demo.
When MP stated they "decided to develop the ideas at the end of The Mirror into something that would be a separate song on its own but yet would still sit in the middle of The Mirror" I think it's pretty obvious what he meant - he meant that they took a section from The Mirror and expanded it into another song that still was in the middle of The Mirror. In other words, the whole thing starts with The Mirror, goes into Lie and the returns to The Mirror. It's interesting to note that on the demo release, The Mirror and Lie are two separate and complete tracks. The demo of Lie is only 5 minutes long - without that final 1.5 minutes that's on the album. If that final 1.5 minutes was supposed to be part of Lie, why didn't they include it?
And jingle - I didn't understand any of your other points, so I didn't respond.
I don't consider In the Presence of Enemies to be one song; it is two. Even if it was written originally to be one, it was broken up into two and released that way. Think of it like the Kill Bill movies, which were eventually broken up into two films as well.
Here's my evidence that some on this forum believe that ItPoE is two songs and SDoIT is eight (see the last part of his post). So Peter Mc, feel free to argue with Shmev on this one! :biggrin:
Scotty, I don't think what the band says is what should be written in stone.
Then who should we believe? Whatever some fan says just because that's what he believes? If anything, I think MP, with his elephant memory and attention to detail regarding facts (not opinions) about these sorts of things should be accepted as gospel more than anything else. While some may argue that some of MP's statements have been affected by his ego, especially since he left the band, this was written long before that time and he made an effort to always convey accurate information.
When art is release to the masses, it is normal for the masses to categorize it accordingly. Steven Wilson pushed back in his early days at the first few Porcupine Tree albums being called prog, but most called it prog, so it was prog. I mean, if JP came out tomorrow and said, "Honor Thy Father is a rap song," would that make it rap? Nope.
Despite my "cheat" earlier in this thread, I think of A Mind Beside Itself in the same way I do Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: a suite of songs that ties together (mostly) nicely, but isn't really a single song. And in both cases, the band has labeled it as such on live releases (AMBI on Live Scenes, 6DOIT on Score).
Ah ha! So you did cheat! Busted! :biggrin:
Well, you can argue all you want, but I'll go by what the band says. The band never said that AMBI was a single song, but is has said that SDoIT is, and so I follow that reasoning. Why should I? Because they're the ones who wrote and recorded it. They know better than anyone else what they were doing.
As an aside, how did SW describe the first few PT albums? If not prog, then what? I'd say the first few albums were almost more psychedelic than prog, akin to early PF.
I listened a little more closely to Lie and until it was mentioned here, I didn't know that the end of the song was originally part of The Mirror in the demo version (I never listened to it). Although I do think that the final version on the album is basically a final statement by the band, I do think I will try editing the two songs in Audacity just to see what I personally think.
I tried that years ago for shits and giggles, combining The Mirror and the end of Lie, to see if it worked, but it didn't. It runs together rhythmically, yes, but the way that heavy guitar at the end of The Mirror suddenly drops out as the transition is made sounded very unnatural and just didn't work.
Well if neither of you guys have the Awake demos, I'm sure you can find them on a certain site for reference as to how The Mirror was originally. ;)
And as for cutting The Mirror out completely, just listen to the way the song flows on LSFNY. It doesn't include that fast guitar section that appears from 4:57 to 5:07 on track 8 of Awake, but includes everything after it, tacked on to the end of The Mirror.
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I've also edited a few songs on TA to combine them because I think they sound better as single songs (Descent of the Nomacs/Dystopian Overture, A Savior in the Square/When Your Time Has Come, The Walking Shadow/My Last Farewell).
Fun fact: The second one (Savior/Time) was actually a single track on the promo version of the album, and was only split on the final version. I was actually momentarily confused when the album dropped and they were split. :lol
Hey, that is cool! I guess I'm not completely crazy then :)
You are completely crazy if you think he's being serious. ;D
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I can't believe Scotty is getting this much grief.
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By your comment, I would guess you consider the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 to be a part of Lie, correct? .... So, IMO, in this sort of situation, the safest way to go is by what the band says/intends as opposed to personal interpretations based on how it's released or some other arbitrary way.
My copy of Awake has Track 8 listed as Lie. So track 8 is Lie. It's not an interpretation. It isn't open to interpretation. It is not arbitrary. It's written that way on the CD.
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By your comment, I would guess you consider the last 1.5 minutes of track 8 to be a part of Lie, correct?
I would.
What if that section had been made track 9? Would that change your opinion?
Probably, but it would depend on what name was given to track 9.
Better yet, what are your feelings on ItPoE and the title track to SDoIT?
I don't really see what this has to do with what's being discussed. The two ITPOE tracks are clearly labeled as parts 1 and 2 of the same song. Disc 2 of SDOIT (the album) is clearly labeled as being a 42:00 long song called "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence" that is split into eight sections. By contrast, track 8 on Awake -- all 6:33 of it -- is clearly labeled as a song called "Lie" (as opposed to track 7, which is clearly labeled as a song called "The Mirror").
Regardless of how it was done on the demos, the band clearly made a choice to create a song called "Lie" that is separate and distinct from the song called "The Mirror." That the end of the former has a part that, on a demo, was part of and which is musically similar to the latter doesn't change that.
You cite your evidence from the Demo liner notes. Demo. How many demos from how many bands over the history of music evolved out of one thing and into something completely different. Just cuz it's in the demo liner notes (official or not) doesn't mean the intentions translate on to the formal studio release.
Exactly.
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Then who should we believe? Whatever some fan says just because that's what he believes? If anything, I think MP, with his elephant memory and attention to detail regarding facts (not opinions) about these sorts of things should be accepted as gospel more than anything else.
Exactly right. It's just that, with regard to The Mirror, he isn't saying what you think he's saying.
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My copy of Awake has Track 8 listed as Lie. So track 8 is Lie. It's not an interpretation. It isn't open to interpretation. It is not arbitrary. It's written that way on the CD.
Then please explain why track 5 of CD2 of LSFNY is simply listed as "The Mirror". That also isn't open to interpretation nor is it arbitrary. And it's written that way on the CD. :P And don't forget to explain why ItPoE is 2 tracks on SC but 1 on CiM, as well as why SDoIT is 8 tracks on the album, but 1 track on Score. ;)
Better yet, what are your feelings on ItPoE and the title track to SDoIT?
I don't really see what this has to do with what's being discussed. The two ITPOE tracks are clearly labeled as parts 1 and 2 of the same song. Disc 2 of SDOIT (the album) is clearly labeled as being a 42:00 long song called "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence" that is split into eight sections.
And yet you have people like Shmev (and perhaps Cool Chris) that would argue that you're wrong in what you're saying...
Regardless of how it was done on the demos, the band clearly made a choice to create a song called "Lie" that is separate and distinct from the song called "The Mirror." That the end of the former has a part that, on a demo, was part of and which is musically similar to the latter doesn't change that.
And regardless of how it's tracked on the album or listed in the liner notes, MP, long *after* Awake was released, stated in no uncertain terms that when they expanded that section into Lie, it was to be a song *within* a song - that is a song inside another one. What he says does change what you're claiming. And again, feel free to answer the question I posed to Cool Chris above about The Mirror on LSFNY.
You cite your evidence from the Demo liner notes. Demo. How many demos from how many bands over the history of music evolved out of one thing and into something completely different. Just cuz it's in the demo liner notes (official or not) doesn't mean the intentions translate on to the formal studio release.
Exactly.
See my response to jingle in my previous post.
Then who should we believe? Whatever some fan says just because that's what he believes? If anything, I think MP, with his elephant memory and attention to detail regarding facts (not opinions) about these sorts of things should be accepted as gospel more than anything else.
Exactly right. It's just that, with regard to The Mirror, he isn't saying what you think he's saying.
Then what is he saying?
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Then who should we believe? Whatever some fan says just because that's what he believes? If anything, I think MP, with his elephant memory and attention to detail regarding facts (not opinions) about these sorts of things should be accepted as gospel more than anything else.
Exactly right. It's just that, with regard to The Mirror, he isn't saying what you think he's saying.
Then what is he saying?
I think the words are pretty clear. He is saying what the intent was at the time the songs were being written. There is nothing in anything you quoted about what the intent became at the time of the final product. That is about as meaningless as him going on and on and on about the intent of the flute solo at the end of Octavarium being the intended ending of the song. That's great and all. But they clearly made a last minute change, and it is clear that the final version of the song does not have a flute solo, notwithstanding what the intent may have been all the way up until the final moment when they redid it before release.
My copy of Awake has Track 8 listed as Lie. So track 8 is Lie. It's not an interpretation. It isn't open to interpretation. It is not arbitrary. It's written that way on the CD.
Then please explain why track 5 of CD2 of LSFNY is simply listed as "The Mirror". That also isn't open to interpretation nor is it arbitrary. And it's written that way on the CD. :P And don't forget to explain why ItPoE is 2 tracks on SC but 1 on CiM, as well as why SDoIT is 8 tracks on the album, but 1 track on Score. ;)
Because track 8 on LSFNY is The Mirror and not Lie. Not sure how that's somehow controversial.
And also (although this isn't necessary to prove the point), LSFNY. This is a different live version of the song.
Not sure why the reference to the other two songs. You, pg1067, and I all agree that those are each one song.
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My copy of Awake has Track 8 listed as Lie. So track 8 is Lie. It's not an interpretation. It isn't open to interpretation. It is not arbitrary. It's written that way on the CD.
Then please explain why track 5 of CD2 of LSFNY is simply listed as "The Mirror". That also isn't open to interpretation nor is it arbitrary. And it's written that way on the CD. :P And don't forget to explain why ItPoE is 2 tracks on SC but 1 on CiM, as well as why SDoIT is 8 tracks on the album, but 1 track on Score. ;)
Those are separate, and different, recordings, so I guess that they can call them whatever they want, as they have rights to it. They could call Track 5 of Live Scenes CD2 "Rorrim Eht," it is their recording of it. It doesn't change what is listed as Tracks 7 and 8 on Awake.
And regardless of how it's tracked on the album or listed in the liner notes, MP, long *after* Awake was released, stated in no uncertain terms that when they expanded that section into Lie, it was to be a song *within* a song - that is a song inside another one.
We aren't arguing that point. It just has no bearing on how we view the songs.
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Then who should we believe? Whatever some fan says just because that's what he believes? If anything, I think MP, with his elephant memory and attention to detail regarding facts (not opinions) about these sorts of things should be accepted as gospel more than anything else.
Exactly right. It's just that, with regard to The Mirror, he isn't saying what you think he's saying.
Then what is he saying?
I think the words are pretty clear. He is saying what the intent was at the time the songs were being written. There is nothing in anything you quoted about what the intent became at the time of the final product. That is about as meaningless as him going on and on and on about the intent of the flute solo at the end of Octavarium being the intended ending of the song. That's great and all. But they clearly made a last minute change, and it is clear that the final version of the song does not have a flute solo, notwithstanding what the intent may have been all the way up until the final moment when they redid it before release.
But here's the thing - as I already stated, in explaining everything in the liner notes, MP included details about how the songs evolved from the demo stage to the *final* album. If there was some intent that didn't happen between the time they wrote it to when they released it, don't you think *that* wouldn't also be mentioned? Coming from MP, I expect it would. Had there been a "Making of Octavarium" release, you can be sure that MP would've explained the detail about how they originally intended to include the flute solo at the end, but then changed it. There is nothing like that stated in the Awake liner notes to show that what appeared on the final album further changed from what was intended.
My copy of Awake has Track 8 listed as Lie. So track 8 is Lie. It's not an interpretation. It isn't open to interpretation. It is not arbitrary. It's written that way on the CD.
Then please explain why track 5 of CD2 of LSFNY is simply listed as "The Mirror". That also isn't open to interpretation nor is it arbitrary. And it's written that way on the CD. :P And don't forget to explain why ItPoE is 2 tracks on SC but 1 on CiM, as well as why SDoIT is 8 tracks on the album, but 1 track on Score. ;)
Because track 8 on LSFNY is The Mirror and not Lie. Not sure how that's somehow controversial.
No, according to you and others, it's The Mirror with "the Lie outro" - therefore it should be listed and tracked as such to match what you are saying about the division of the songs on Awake. But it isn't. Why? Because the whole thing *is* The Mirror, including the last 1.5 minutes.
And also (although this isn't necessary to prove the point), LSFNY. This is a different live version of the song.
Not sure what that has to do with anything. Just because it's live doesn't change it from one thing to another - either that last 1.5 minutes is The Mirror or Lie. In fact, it highlights another point - that track is at the beginning of a medley of songs - all the others are tracked separately, which would be the *perfect* reason to split up track 5 on CD2 into 2 parts, and yet it wasn't done.
[Not sure why the reference to the other two songs. You, pg1067, and I all agree that those are each one song.
I reference those 2 other songs because there are others like Shmev (and likely Cool Chris) who stick to the belief that because those songs have been broken up into multiple tracks, that automatically means that they are multiple songs. My bringing that up is to point out that just because something is broken into multiple tracks does not mean it's now multiple songs. And likewise, the opposite is also true - just because more than one song is under one track on a CD doesn't mean it's not 2 separate songs.
And regardless of how it's tracked on the album or listed in the liner notes, MP, long *after* Awake was released, stated in no uncertain terms that when they expanded that section into Lie, it was to be a song *within* a song - that is a song inside another one.
We aren't arguing that point. It just has no bearing on how we view the songs.
Actually it does, or else we wouldn't be having this discussion now would we?
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But here's the thing - as I already stated, in explaining everything in the liner notes, MP included details about how the songs evolved from the demo stage to the *final* album. If there was some intent that didn't happen between the time they wrote it to when they released it, don't you think *that* wouldn't also be mentioned? Coming from MP, I expect it would. Had there been a "Making of Octavarium" release, you can be sure that MP would've explained the detail about how they originally intended to include the flute solo at the end, but then changed it. There is nothing like that stated in the Awake liner notes to show that what appeared on the final album further changed from what was intended.
I can't speak to what he did not say or speculate as to why he did not say it. But again, it is pretty clear that he is saying what the intent was at the time the songs were being written. There is nothing in anything you quoted about what the intent became at the time of the final product. As to why he didn't say more, I cannot possibly guess.
No, according to you and others, it's The Mirror with "the Lie outro" - therefore it should be listed and tracked as such to match what you are saying about the division of the songs on Awake.
No, I never said anything of the sort. It is The Mirror, and that isn't really controversial. It is a different arrangement of The Mirror that they chose to do for the live performance, which bands do all the time. But they often do not typically add a detailed explanation in the title as to how/why the arrangement is different. Hollow Years on L@B is not listed in the track listing as "Hollow Years -- complete with ALL NEW! ripping JP solo!!!" ACOS on LSFNY is not listed as "A Change of Seasons -- now with new and improved JR funny instrumental bits!" So why would The Mirror be listed as "The Mirror with ..."? That doesn't make any sense. Which is why I never said and never would say what you are mistakenly attributing to me. So, basically, you are now misquoting both MP and me in the same thread. I guess I'm in good company.
I reference those 2 other songs because there are others like Shmev (and likely Cool Chris) who stick to the belief that because those songs have been broken up into multiple tracks, that automatically means that they are multiple songs. My bringing that up is to point out that just because something is broken into multiple tracks does not mean it's now multiple songs. And likewise, the opposite is also true - just because more than one song is under one track on a CD doesn't mean it's not 2 separate songs.
Yes, but they are clearly wrong, so why bring that up in responding to people that agree on that point?
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Well if neither of you guys have the Awake demos, I'm sure you can find them on a certain site for reference as to how The Mirror was originally. ;)
And as for cutting The Mirror out completely, just listen to the way the song flows on LSFNY. It doesn't include that fast guitar section that appears from 4:57 to 5:07 on track 8 of Awake, but includes everything after it, tacked on to the end of The Mirror.
Before I try and do the edit, I'll take your advice and listen to the demo first. And yeah, I figured the part you are talking about was after the fast pick part toward the end of Lie.
As a side note, I have always liked The Mirror but hated how it abruptly ended, so I always played The Mirror/Lie back to back because it flowed better otherwise I wouldn't listen to The Mirror at all. Even though I have combined or cut other songs like I mentioned previously, I never did that with The Mirror/Lie because I really couldn't see them as one 12+ minute song, it just didn't feel right. So I just saw them as two separate songs that I could only enjoy if I played them back to back like they are on the album.
That probably sounds weird but, everyone likes their DT the way they like it I guess :)
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Scotty, don’t worry, I know you are not saying you’re better than me or anyone else. I also know from my time on MP’s forum that you were closer to Mike than most fans. Again, am not doubting what you read, just thought it was an unfair comparison to ITPOE/SDOIT which the band have very publicly stated are single songs and are listed on the album as different parts of the same song. This issue you have brought up about The Mirror (historically a big fan favourite song) is not very publicly stated, not well known at all even to those who consider themselves fairly knowledgeable about the band and is not referred to at all on the album. I agree that the Lie outro fits perfectly well with The Mirror on LSFNY and don’t doubt it was originally going to be part of that song, hence their decision to play it that way as a treat for fans just like they did later with HK/BMS. I just choose to go with what the band ultimately gave us on the album which is two separate songs with two different titles and no stated link between them. If you’ve had personal discussions with Mike about it and he’s told you how he views these songs then that’s awesome and I can see why you see them the way you do.
There are some who will state that ITPOE in particular is two songs as it is split up on the album. I wouldn’t necessarily argue with them as, strictly speaking, it has been released that way, I can see their logic. I personally choose to accept that it is one song split purely for sequencing reasons as the band has expressly stated this and the songs are called ITPOE parts 1 and 2.
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Then please explain why track 5 of CD2 of LSFNY is simply listed as "The Mirror". That also isn't open to interpretation nor is it arbitrary. And it's written that way on the CD. :P And don't forget to explain why ItPoE is 2 tracks on SC but 1 on CiM, as well as why SDoIT is 8 tracks on the album, but 1 track on Score. ;)
See below.
Well, you can argue all you want, but I'll go by what the band says. The band never said that AMBI was a single song, but is has said that SDoIT is, and so I follow that reasoning. Why should I? Because they're the ones who wrote and recorded it. They know better than anyone else what they were doing.
As an aside, how did SW describe the first few PT albums? If not prog, then what? I'd say the first few albums were almost more psychedelic than prog, akin to early PF.
If 6DOIT is one song, then why were Goodnight Kiss and Solitary Shell listed as individual songs on the back of the Budokan live DVD, instead of Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: Goodnight Kiss and Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: Solitary Shell? Same goes for War Inside My Head and The Test That Stumped Them All from the same release.
Also, Peruvian Skies on Once in a Livetime lists just Peruvian Skies, which has excerpts of Have a Cigar and Enter Sandman, but since they are not listed, are we to assume that those songs were then technically part of Peruvian Skies, similar to how the end of Lie is apparently part of the Mirror?
Moral of the story: we cannot put a ton of stock into how the band labels their songs on their live releases.
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And I thought that the wildest debate that could ever happen about DT songs was the one about Six Degrees being or not a single 42 minutes song :lol
As someone else said, it's fascinating that such a band have more than one situation like this where we could go on for hours about the nature of song, without anyone being clearly wrong or right.
Scotty, I completely understand the explanation about the nature of The Mirror and Lie, and how from the ending of The Mirror they managed to work out a whole song that could fit inside it so to speak. But I can hardly fault anyone for considering those two songs as separate ones, as they're tracklisted on Awake.
As far as live performances go, most bands are in situations where they have to work around ending of songs, be them fadeouts or transitions in other songs (Should they ever decide to play A Saviour in the Square alone, they'll have to come up with something if they avoid going directly into When your Time has Come). Ending The Mirror live the way it was demoed it's the only logical way after all, the fact that the demo was the starting point to conjure up another whole song is just a bonus information.
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I can't believe Scotty is getting this much grief.
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I really don’t think the ITPOE or SDOIT examples are comparable. They are clearly labelled as being parts of the same song. The reasons for splitting ITPOE on the album were clearly explained at the time of release and are widely known.
I can't speak for Cool Chris, because I don't know his personal feelings, but I know that there are some people on this forum that would argue that they consider both ItPoE and SDoIT to consist of multiple songs instead of being single songs that were split up for tracking purposes.
It's interesting you mention this, because I would argue that both views are accurate. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, In the Presence of Enemies, and The Mirror/Lie all fall under a single genre called a song cycle. To quote the Oxford Dictionary of Music, a song cycle is:
A group of individually complete songs designed as a unit (aptly described in German as ‘zusammenhängender Complex’), for solo or ensemble voices with or without instrumental accompaniment. ... They may be as brief as two songs (dyad-cycles) or as long as 30 or more (e.g. Schoeck’s Das holde Bescheiden op.62).
And here's another from Wikipedia:
... Some type of coherence, however, is regarded as a necessary attribute of song cycles. It may derive from the text (a single poet; a story line; a central theme or topic such as love or nature; a unifying mood; poetic form or genre, as in a sonnet or ballad cycle) or from musical procedures (tonal schemes; recurring motifs, passages or entire songs; formal structures). These unifying features may appear singly or in combination. ...
Basically, while In the Presence of Enemies is one unified work as a song cycle, it's ALSO six songs: I. Prelude, II. Resurrection, III. Heretic, IV. The Slaughter of the Damned, V. The Reckoning, and VI. Salvation. It's also two tracks, because this wasn't already confusing enough lol. The individual songs are unified through a story line and recurring motifs and passages (and, I suppose, a broader overarching formal structure). SDoIT is one song cycle with nine songs (counting Losing Time and Grand Finale as separate units), unified through a central theme (mental illness) and several recurring musical ideas. There is also broader overarching structure to it as well. There's some semantics here regarding if a cycle with both instrumental pieces and vocal songs is technically a song cycle (afaik there's no term for something that does this), but that's besides the point.
The Mirror/Lie is a dyad-cycle (as mentioned in the quote): it's two songs, but one cycle. As the quote you posted illustrates, The Mirror and Lie were designed as a unit, but are two individually complete songs. In this case, they are unified by a lyrical "mood" (since they don't have any direct similarities in terms of subject matter like the two above songs do) and reoccurring motifs and passages. They are -- to my knowledge -- almost always played together live, but could potentially stand on their own in a live setting. So the reprise of The Mirror section at the end of Lie makes total sense in that regard, but I would argue that it doesn't necessarily make it a part of The Mirror (the song) instead of Lie (the song). Instead, I would argue, this is an example of cyclic form. To quote Oxford again:
Music in which a later movement reintroduces thematic material of an earlier movement is said to be in ‘cyclic form’. In its strict meaning such music returns at its end to the point whence it set out at the beginning, in the manner of the song There’s a hole in my bucket, to produce an endlessly rotating cycle; but in practice the simplest examples have been works like Haydn’s Symphony no.31 in D (Hornsignal), Beethoven’s Serenade op.8, Brahms’s Third Symphony and Elgar’s Second Symphony, whose finales all close with the material of the beginning of the work. More generally the term ‘cyclic’ describes those works where thematic links bind more than one movement; it is not properly applied to mere thematic resemblances.
So Lie (as a movement of the song cycle) closes with material from an earlier movement, The Mirror. That reprise of the section of The Mirror is still a part of Lie as a song, but it's main purpose is to tie the The Mirror/Lie song cycle together. If you were to cover Lie on its own, you would likely include that reprise of The Mirror. If you released an official sheet music or TAB book of the songs (and oh look, they did), the reprise would still be include with Lie.
There's also a random quotation of Space-Dye Vest in The Mirror, but the less said about that the better.
To summarize:
The Mirror/Lie is a single dyad-cycle, with two songs, split into two tracks. The two parts were conceived as one unit (and are often performed as one unit) but they technically function as complete songs. They are unified by reoccurring musical motifs, a broader musical structure, and a general lyrical "mood". The second song in the cycle, Lie, has a reprise of a section of the first song in the cycle, The Mirror. This is an example of cyclic form to give the cycle and overall greater sense of structural unity. In a sense you're totally right, because that reprise IS a part of The Mirror/Lie dyad-cycle. But in a sense, you're also totally wrong, because it's definitely a part of Lie, the individual song and track. They're both totally separate entities and a unified whole at the same time, like two movements of a symphony.
tl;dr: So...you're all kind of right and kind of wrong, I guess? idk this is a hot mess of semantics
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You forgot The Mirror reprise in Space Dye Vest.
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The less said about that the better.
Nah, but for real. SDV isn't really a part of the cycle imo (it's not frequently played with The Mirror/Lie and there's like three tracks of separation). Like...the shared material between the two is honestly hella weird because they're not connected otherwise outside of appearing on the same album. But you could also argue that SDV IS a part of the cycle because of the shared themes and ugh
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Top 20....in sorta chronological order.....
Pull Me Under
Metropolis
Learning to Live
To Live Forever
Erotomania
Voices
The Mirror
Scarred
A Change Of Seasons
Trial of Tears
Fatal Tragedy
Home
The Spirit Carries On
Blind Faith
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
As I Am
Bridges in the Sky
Outcry
Breaking All Illusions
At Wit’s End
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You forgot The Mirror reprise in Space Dye Vest.
I always thought of it as a preprise of SDV in The Mirror. :coolio
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Well, if we're talking about SDV, we all lose and nobody gets the prize, so there's that.
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I can't believe almost the whole thread became a discussion for The Mirror/Lie and semantics, well... it's DTF after all, and I love it :lol
I feel like I souldn't add more fuel to the fire, but...
Didn't the demo version of PMU contain part of what became Erotomania later on? Does that mean that Erotomania is actually part of PMU?
Wasn't SFAM a 20+ minute song at first? After all, that's the way the band intended it to be, but we ended up having something different, didn't we?
For both cases, as well as the ending of OVM and ASITS/WYTHC on TA, the band ended up changing things from what the original idea was, and now we have the finished product to listen to. Simple as that. SDOIT and ITPOE are different because they were released as one song, just different tracks.
Whatever, I'm gonna start calling The Mirror "Puppies on Acid expanded" from now on...
And, to answer to the OP, it's impossible to pick just 10 :eek
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Congratulations! You were the one to finally end the discussion and show us all up. :hefdaddy
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Well, if we're talking about SDV, we all lose and nobody gets the prize, so there's that.
Huh..I like Strange Deja Vu.
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no particular order
Bridges in the Sky
Breaking All Illusions
Another Won
Under a Glass Moon
the entire Awake album
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To hopefully steer the thread discussion back to the intended topic. :lol
1. Metropolis Pt. 1
2. Scarred
3. Learning to Live
4. A Change of Seasons
5. Blind Faith
6. Finally Free
7. Misunderstood
8. Home
9. Breaking All Illusions
10. Octavarium
Voices, ToT, and LiTS also almost made the cut. I think it's awesome how only 10 of the best songs from the band can amount to well over an hour of stellar music.
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I'm trying to find the old Top 50 thread we had. I think it would be cool if I updated mine. Top 10 will likely be the same, maybe some songs added in. Depends on what year it was we did that.
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1. Ocatavarium
2. Breaking All Illusions
3. Home
4. In the Presence of Enemies (live 1&2)
the rest can be any number 5-10 and maybe even 10 more songs thrown in. I don't know how the d/t songs are going to fall into place after a time.
5. In the Name of God
6. At Wit's End
7. On the Backs of Angels
8. Finally Free
9. The Mirror (with Lie because the Mirror reprises at the end of Lie - I always hear it, and not being one who can credibly jump into the technical discussions, I always think of Mirror and Lie together) :biggrin:
10. Pale Blue Dot
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9. The Mirror (with Lie because the Mirror reprises at the end of Lie - I always hear it, and not being one who can credibly jump into the technical discussions, I always think of Mirror and Lie together) :biggrin:
They solved this on SFAM with the (scene N) breakdown. Mirror and Lie, different songs same scene.
The Mirror tangent got me listening to Awake. I think I need to move Voices up a few spots...
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1.Afterlife
2.The Ones Who Help to Set The Sun
3.Surrounded
4.Learning to Live
5.Lines In the Sand
6.The Spirit Carries On
7.Count Of Tuscany
8.Bridges In the Sky
9.Illumination Theory
10. something off Train of Thought I guess...
And the amount of current replay is actually working 9 and up...
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In no specific order...
Lie
Room 137
On the Backs of Angels
Enigma Machine
Take Away My Pain
Beyond This Life
Fatal Tragedy
Panic Attack
In The Presence Of Enemies Pt 1
In the Name of God
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It speaks to the diversity of the band's output that 75 of their songs are so far represented in the top ten lists. For the interested, these are the songs that have so far got a mention (by album):
When Dream And Day Unite
A Fortune In Lies
The Killing Hand
Light Fuse And Get Away
The Ones Who Help To Set The Sun
Afterlife
Only A Matter of Time
Images and Words:
Pull Me Under
Another Day
Take The Time
Surrounded
Metropolis
Under A Glass Moon
Wait For Sleep
Learning To Live
Awake:
6:00
Voices
The Mirror
Lie
Lifting Shadows Off A Dream
Scarred
Space Dye Vest
Falling Into Infinity:
New Millennium
Hollow Years
Hell's Kitchen
Lines In The Sand
Take Away My Pain
Anna Lee
Trial of Tears
Scenes From A Memory:
Strange Deja Vu
Fatal Tragedy
Beyond This Life
Home
The Dance of Eternity
The Spirit Carries On
Finally Free
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence:
The Glass Prison
Blind Faith
Misunderstood
The Great Debate
Disappear
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
About To Crash
Solitary Shell
Train of Thought:
Endless Sacrifice
Vacant
Stream of Consciousness
In The Name Of God
Octavarium:
The Root Of All Evil
Panic Attack
Sacrificed Sons
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos:
Constant Motion
In The Presence of Enemies
Black Clouds and Silver Linings:
The Count of Tuscany
A Dramatic Turn of Events:
On The Backs Of Angels
This Is The Life
Bridges In The Sky
Breaking All Illusions
Beneath The Surface
Dream Theater:
The Looking Glass
Enigma Machine
The Bigger Picture
Surrender To Reason
Illumination Theory
The Astonishing:
Three Days
A Life Left Behind
Moment of Betrayal
Distance Over Time:
Fall Into The Light
Room 137
At Wit's End
Pale Blue Dot
Non-album tracks:
A Change of Seasons
Another Won
Speak To Me
To Live Forever
Don't Look Past Me
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Fascinating analysis Dave. I&W - every song mentioned. SC and BCSL least represented, which to me validates that they really DID need the change.
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Yay I found the thread. My have things have changed.
10. Disappear - (My all time favorite ballad from my favorite album. The beginning sets the scene. Your outside, it's calm and overcast. Then you hear a scream, suddenly you see your loved one in pain, which is when the piano begins, its a sad circus. Then the hospital scene is set, as the loved one is speaking to God and the one in the bed. Soon, it gets more sad as the emotion rises in the music. Soon, your left with having to accept their going home. The music compliments it perfectly because it is the circus of life, and how suddenly one must accept death in the end. JLB has some amazing vocal moments in this song. His lower register suits it perfectly as I prefer the soft spoken parts of "I knew you were scared, you were strong I was trying")
9. The Count of Tuscany - (Got to love that opening acoustic intro. This intro is one of their finest, also one of JP's best solo's. I love the harmonies going on. The harmonics and the swoosh sound is my notification tone, as its perfect. JLB's vocal delivery, along with JP's lyrics are among the things I really enjoy, yes I don't mind the lyrics. I wouldn't want to be offered wine after hearing the story of soldiers dying in the wine barres, especially since he said "all the finest wines improve with age." The instrumental section is like him freaking out, thinking what the hell did I get myself into. Then as it gets calm so does he, I imagine someone sitting in the middle of a room with the moonlight, the only light, shining on him as he, having fear of the unknown, contemplates life. Then the silver lining, the count basically says "It's all good, I ain't gonna do a thing" From the swells everything is pure gold, I wonder if JR used the Chaos Pad? The woah's add a lot of emotion to the already epic ending, and I enjoy that he didn't go all high, just what the song called for.
8. Chosen - (One of many from The Astonishing that makes my top 50 now. This one deserves to be played again. It's a great stand alone track with lyrics that aren't really secluded to the story.)
7. WFS/LTL - (When listening to these two back to back it becomes one. It has a weird effect, when they transition and the reprise that appears in LtL. I could see the girl in the cover art laying on that bed. He's learning to live without her. What makes this a top 5 is the emotion both create. JLB has amazing range from soft low vocals to the high f#. JM's lyrics are great as well. An all around great combination that makes me feel good about life. especially when singing along.)
6. FFH/BAI - (This is the same as WFS/LTL. Instead of love, its a spiritual connection. The calm of FFH, is one contemplating while alone in their room. Then as they walk out into the world, they are breaking illusions they had once perceived. MM's drumming is great, and blends nicely without overpowering the other instruments, letting the lead be the lead. Another great part is the final fantasy-esque section. The FFH reprise works great as an end because it's the person finally overcoming this spiritual situation.)
5. The Bigger Picture - (The lyrics are what got me. Also, the instant intro and nice use of piano. The ending as well made me love it instantly, so glad they busted this out on the I&W&B tour. Was among the many highlights from that show.)
4. Finally Free - (Since, Spirit is the climax, this song is the nice calm down. Also, It's the final piece to the story. Here we learn to truth of what happened to Nicholas. Everything just fits so well, JR's cool orchestral melody in the beginning, followed by Piano only. The song is groovy and so are the lyrics. It's so majestic yet calm, until we get to the One Last Time reprise that is used here in a different way. The meaning is about laying together until death. The one thing that was a nice addition live was the rehearsal demo ending. JR's Bells add a whole lot to it. Plus, to me it concludes it better than the album ending.)
3. Trial of Tears - (Dream Theaters only soft atmospheric epic. And JM wrote it, which makes me wonder what he would come up with if he took the time to make more of these. The soft ambiance of the intro with JP's guitar solo is mesmorising, and MP's drum work isn't over the top. It fits pretty well with the style the song calls for. The lyrics pulled me in when I first heard it on Live at Budakon, it was my first actual Dream Theater listening, other than pull me under.)
Funny thing from the post of these past two songs:
These two songs I feel they need to bring back some day, on a tour thats not for an album.
2. At Wits End - (What can I say about this recent classic. The intro hits you hard like ITPOE pt.1 does. The best part is after the instrumental, JR's piano comes in and smoothly JLB comes in with a nice breathy vocals. The ending is an epic build-up to the nice guitar solo.)
1. Scarred - (My favorite is this lovely piece. The intro sets a nice pace, and MP and JM are in a nice groove. It sets up nice for JPs guitar to come in. love how its all the same until the lyrics begin. We have a nice build up in the verse that goes well with the lyrics. Then it gets nice and heavy with melancholy in the pre chorus. JLB sings this with passion he delivers the emotion the lyrics call for. I really enjoy the ending as well.)
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In a fairly loose order:
Metropolis Part I
The Glass Prison
A Nightmare to Remember
Honor Thy Father
The Root of All Evil
Strange Deja-vu
6:00
Beyond This Life
Only a Matter of Time
Bridges in the Sky
Trial of Tears! I forgot that. Oh no! Gonna have to rethink!
Metropolis Part I
The Glass Prison
Trial of Tears
A Nightmare to Remember
Honor Thy Father
The Root of All Evil
6:00
Beyond This Life
Only a Matter of Time
Bridges in the Sky
There.
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Voices
Octavarium
Metropolis
Space-Dye Vest
Trial Of Tears
Home
Six Degrees Disc 2
Only A Matter Of Time
A Change of Seasons
Learning To Live
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@DaveManchester - Only a Matter of Time has been listed a couple of times (once by me) and can be added to the WDADU list of songs represented.
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Top Ten As Of Today
1. Breaking All Illusions
2. Illumination Theory
3. S2n
4. Trial of Tears
5. Our New World
6. At Wit's End
7. Scarred
8. Surrounded
9. Misunderstood
10. Metropolis Pt. 1
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As of today with no special order
Octavarium
Breaking all Illusions
Learning to Live
Another Day
Voices
Eve
Panic Attack
Disappear
Home
Hell's Kitchen
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Fatal Tragedy
Six Degrees
Learning to Live
Metropolis Pt 1
Change of Seasons
Trial of Tears
Glass Prison
Overture 1928
Take the Time
Home
Honorable Mention:
Spirit Carries On, One last Time, Beyond this life, Octavarium, Count of Tuscany, A New Beginning, At Wits End, Surrounded, Under a Glass Moon, Erotomania, Voices, Pull Me Under
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In no particular order:
1. Learning to Live.
2. A Mind Beside Itself.
3. Scarred.
4. Raise the Knife.
5. Strange Deja Vu.
6. Misunderstood.
7. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence.
8. A Change of Seasons.
9. Octavarium.
10. Speak to Me.
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1. A Change of Seasons
2. Metropolis, Pt. 1: The Miracle and the Sleeper
3. Voices
4. Blind Faith
5. Peruvian Skies
6. In The Name of God
7. Learning to Live
8. Another Day
9. Octavarium
10. Breaking All Illusions
Honorables:
Caught In a Web
Misunderstood
At Wit's End
Beneath the Surface
Trial of Tears
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Updated list of all the songs that have received a mention (and far be it from me to tell DT what to put on the setlist for their upcoming European tour but...well, some of the songs on their recent DOT festival tour are notably absent...)
When Dream And Day Unite
A Fortune In Lies
The Killing Hand
Light Fuse And Get Away
The Ones Who Help To Set The Sun
Afterlife
Only A Matter of Time
Images and Words:
Pull Me Under
Another Day
Take The Time
Surrounded
Metropolis
Under A Glass Moon
Wait For Sleep
Learning To Live
Awake:
6:00
Voices
The Mirror
Lie
Lifting Shadows Off A Dream
Scarred
Space Dye Vest
Falling Into Infinity:
New Millennium
Peruvian Skies
Hollow Years
Hell's Kitchen
Lines In The Sand
Take Away My Pain
Anna Lee
Trial of Tears
Scenes From A Memory:
Strange Deja Vu
Fatal Tragedy
Beyond This Life
Home
The Dance of Eternity
The Spirit Carries On
Finally Free
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence:
The Glass Prison
Blind Faith
Misunderstood
The Great Debate
Disappear
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
About To Crash
Solitary Shell
Train of Thought:
Endless Sacrifice
Vacant
Stream of Consciousness
In The Name Of God
Octavarium:
The Root Of All Evil
Panic Attack
Sacrificed Sons
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos:
Constant Motion
In The Presence of Enemies
Black Clouds and Silver Linings:
The Count of Tuscany
A Dramatic Turn of Events:
On The Backs Of Angels
This Is The Life
Bridges In The Sky
Breaking All Illusions
Beneath The Surface
Dream Theater:
The Looking Glass
Enigma Machine
The Bigger Picture
Surrender To Reason
Illumination Theory
The Astonishing:
Three Days
A Life Left Behind
Chosen
Moment of Betrayal
Our New World
Distance Over Time:
Fall Into The Light
Room 137
S2N
At Wit's End
Pale Blue Dot
Non-album tracks:
A Change of Seasons
Another Won
Speak To Me
To Live Forever
Eve
Raise The Knife
Don't Look Past Me
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Appears that FII is more liked than people let on. It's definitely become my favorite album of theirs in recent years and really has some top tier songs.
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Appears that FII is more liked than people let on. It's definitely become my favorite album of theirs in recent years and really has some top tier songs.
Took a long time to grow on me but there are some fantastic songs on there. I know it's hardly original to say this but if they'd included some of the non-album tracks from those sessions and excised some of the, dare I say, dross, it'd be one of their classics to me.
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IMO Labrie's two best performances are FII and SDOIT. FII also has amazing production.
The issue I have with the album is that a few of the songs are some of the worst by DT.
You not me, Just let me breathe, Burning My Soul are 3 of the worst DT ever recored IMO.
Hollow Years, Take Away my pain, New Millenium are mediocre DT songs.
Peruvian Skies, Hells Kitchen, Lines in the Sand, Anna Lee, Trial of Tears are classic DT songs IMO.
So.... I love FII but it has major problems which is why I place it around 5-7th in their catalogue.
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IMO Labrie's two best performances are FII and SDOIT. FII also has amazing production.
The issue I have with the album is that a few of the songs are some of the worst by DT.
You not me, Just let me breathe, Burning My Soul are 3 of the worst DT ever recored IMO.
Hollow Years, Take Away my pain, New Millenium are mediocre DT songs.
Peruvian Skies, Hells Kitchen, Lines in the Sand, Anna Lee, Trial of Tears are classic DT songs IMO.
So.... I love FII but it has major problems which is why I place it around 5-7th in their catalogue.
As I've posted here many times, I got into DT when PMU broke in the summer of 1992. I thought I&W struck the perfect prog:metal balance. Awake went to the metal side of the balance but I still liked it, and ACOS was just amazing. I can still remember the first time I listened to FII. At the time, my wife was still pretending to like DT, so we listened to it together in the living room of a new apartment with a bunch of unpacked boxes stacked up in the room. I thought and still think New Millennium was terrible. You Not Me made me say WTF? A blatant attempt at a radio hit. Peruvian Skies was just meh. It took until Hollow Years to find a song I really liked, but ballads were not why I was a DT fan. I can't remember listening too much further, and it really felt reminiscent of the fiasco that was Metallica's Load from a couple years earlier. Fortunately, DT bounced back in a big way two years later.
After 20 plus years, I consider YNM, HY, HK, AL and ToT to be the best songs on the album, but none would make a DT top ten list. Lines in the Sand would be better without the chorus, and New Millennium remains a bottom-5 DT song. The rest is just meh, and the interesting thing is that, had the label not "interfered," it would have been a significantly worse album.
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1. Learning to Live
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Scarred
4. The Mirror
5. Metropolis
6. Lines in the Sand
7. Trial of Tears
8. Space Dye Vest
9. The Killing Hand
10. The Glass Prison
I'd say top 5 are solidified for sure. Beyond that it's really hard to rank but those are probably the ones I come back to the most.
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In no particular order, and probably subject to change:
1. The Ministry of Lost Souls
2. Wither
3. A Rite of Passage
4. On the Backs of Angels
5. The Spirit Carries On
6. Finally Free
7. Beneath the Surface
8. Untethered Angel
9. Hollow Years
10. Octavarium
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In no particular order:
Learning to Live
A Change of Seasons
Metropolis Pt. 1
Scarred
Octavarium
Blind Faith
Illumination Theory
Lines in the Sand
Trial of Tears
The Glass Prison
And Scotty is right about The Mirror (Lie) The Mirror.
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1. Metropolis pt 1
2. Octavarium
3. The Ministry of lost souls
4. A Change of seasons
5. Scarred
6. Beyond this life
7. Disappear
8. Learning to live
9. The Great debate
10. Peruvian skies
-
Updated list, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds receiving some sorely needed love...
When Dream And Day Unite
A Fortune In Lies
The Killing Hand
Light Fuse And Get Away
The Ones Who Help To Set The Sun
Afterlife
Only A Matter of Time
Images and Words:
Pull Me Under
Another Day
Take The Time
Surrounded
Metropolis
Under A Glass Moon
Wait For Sleep
Learning To Live
Awake:
6:00
Voices
The Mirror
Lie
Lifting Shadows Off A Dream
Scarred
Space Dye Vest
Falling Into Infinity:
New Millennium
Peruvian Skies
Hollow Years
Hell's Kitchen
Lines In The Sand
Take Away My Pain
Anna Lee
Trial of Tears
Scenes From A Memory:
Strange Deja Vu
Fatal Tragedy
Beyond This Life
Home
The Dance of Eternity
The Spirit Carries On
Finally Free
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence:
The Glass Prison
Blind Faith
Misunderstood
The Great Debate
Disappear
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
About To Crash
Solitary Shell
Train of Thought:
Endless Sacrifice
Vacant
Stream of Consciousness
In The Name Of God
Octavarium:
The Root Of All Evil
Panic Attack
Sacrificed Sons
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos:
Constant Motion
The Ministry of Lost Souls
In The Presence of Enemies
Black Clouds and Silver Linings:
A Rite of Passage
Wither
The Count of Tuscany
A Dramatic Turn of Events:
On The Backs Of Angels
This Is The Life
Bridges In The Sky
Breaking All Illusions
Beneath The Surface
Dream Theater:
The Looking Glass
Enigma Machine
The Bigger Picture
Surrender To Reason
Illumination Theory
The Astonishing:
Three Days
A Life Left Behind
Chosen
Moment of Betrayal
Our New World
Distance Over Time:
Untethered Angel
Fall Into The Light
Room 137
S2N
At Wit's End
Pale Blue Dot
Non-album tracks:
A Change of Seasons
Another Won
Speak To Me
To Live Forever
Eve
Raise The Knife
Don't Look Past Me
(edit: I'm surprised to see no Barstool Warrior on the Distance Over Time list so if I've missed it somewhere, please let me know).
-
Way too many good songs by DT. I think if the thread was a top 20 instead, it would be easier.
-
Updated list, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds receiving some sorely needed love...
[album-by-album list]
(edit: I'm surprised to see no Barstool Warrior on the Distance Over Time list so if I've missed it somewhere, please let me know).
??? I honestly don't understand your list. This is a "top 10" thread, but you listed the vast majority of DT songs. I don't get it.
-
Updated list, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds receiving some sorely needed love...
[album-by-album list]
(edit: I'm surprised to see no Barstool Warrior on the Distance Over Time list so if I've missed it somewhere, please let me know).
??? I honestly don't understand your list. This is a "top 10" thread, but you listed the vast majority of DT songs. I don't get it.
I believe he's compiled a list of songs that have appeared at least once on anyone's list within this thread -- the point being that the majority of DT's songs are on at least one person's top-10 list (something that is at least somewhat remarkable because it probably wouldn't be true for most bands).
-
Updated list, Systematic Chaos and Black Clouds receiving some sorely needed love...
[album-by-album list]
(edit: I'm surprised to see no Barstool Warrior on the Distance Over Time list so if I've missed it somewhere, please let me know).
??? I honestly don't understand your list. This is a "top 10" thread, but you listed the vast majority of DT songs. I don't get it.
pg1067 covered it. Go back a page, I explain it there. I'm keeping a list of all the songs that have received at least one vote by way of illustrating how diversely loved the DT catalogue is among the fanbase; in my opinion, more so than the vast majority of other bands. I think that if I asked this question (your top ten favourite songs) of another band (Pink Floyd say), their albums wouldn't be anywhere near as well-represented as DT. Just an opinion.
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Oh, I see. Sorry, I had forgotten that you started the thread and were now compiling the votes. I thought you were just posting your own top songs. My misunderstanding.
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In no particular order
Beyond This Life
Learning To Live
Under A Glass Moon
Take The Time
Ravenskill
The Count of Tuscany
Hell's Kitchen
The Great Debate
Home
Scarred
I was so tempted to add Barstool Warrior, but at the last second I remembered how much I love Scarred.
-
Surrounded
The Glass Prison
Scarred
Metropolis
Beyond This Life
Bridges in the Sky
Strange Deja Vu
At Wit's End
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
This Dying Soul
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1. A Change of Seasons
2. Octavarium
3. The Spirit Carries On
4. Metropolis Pt1
5. Finally Free
6. Dance of Eternity
7. The Mirror
8. Trial of Tears
9. Erotomania
10. Lines in the Sand
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1. A Change of Seasons
2. Octavarium
3. The Count of Tuscany
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Best of Times
6. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
7. Finally Free
8. Surrounded
9. A Mind Beside Itself
10. Breaking All Illusions
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1. Cover My Eyes
2. This Is The Life
3. Strange Deja Vu
4. Surrounded
5. To Live Forever
6. I Walk Beside You
7. Misunderstood
8. Voices
9. Fatal Tragedy
10. Raise The Knife
(Fatal Tragedy, Dance Of Eternity, Octavarium, Solitary Shell, The Looking Glass all could have made the list).
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2. This Is The Life
I don't have this nearly as high as you do, but I'll say this.. This Is the Life is a perfectly written song.
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I've been working on a complete song ranking for a while now, but I may as well reveal my top 10 now:
#1. Learning To Live
#2. A Change Of Seasons
#3. At Wits End
#4. Metropolis
#5. Breaking All Illusions
#6. A Nightmare To Remember
#7. Blind Faith
#8. In The Presence Of Enemies Part 2
#9. About To Crash
10. The Count Of Tuscany
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1) Count of Tuscany
2) In the Name of God
3) Octavarium
4) The Spirit Carries On
5) A Change of Seasons
6) At Wit's End
7) Fatal Tragedy
8) Solitary Shell
9) Home
10) About to Crash
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1. Cover My Eyes
2. This Is The Life
3. Strange Deja Vu
4. Surrounded
5. To Live Forever
6. I Walk Beside You
7. Misunderstood
8. Voices
9. Fatal Tragedy
10. Raise The Knife
(Fatal Tragedy, Dance Of Eternity, Octavarium, Solitary Shell, The Looking Glass all could have made the list).
Do you mean you would list Fatal Tragedy twice? You have it at #9.
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Nah, typo. I think on my list at home (I'm traveling) I had Octavarium there then moved it.
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I need to give this a LOT of thought. I will say the majority are from I&W, Awake, FII, ACOS, and SFAM.
The post-SFAM material is more represented in the 11-20, and 21-30 realm...
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01- Metropolis Pt. 1
02- Home
03- Learning to live
04- Breaking all illusions
05- Forsaken
06- Space-Dye vest
07- Disappear
08- Stream of consciousness
09- In the presence of enemies
10- Just let me breathe
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10- Just let me breathe
:omg:
-
10- Just let me breathe
:omg:
That’s for the controversial thread :lol
-
10- Just let me breathe
:omg:
That’s for the controversial thread :lol
Great song!
-
1- Take The Time
2- Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
3- The Spirit Carries On
4- A Nightmare To Remember
5- Space Dye Vest
6- Pull Me Under
7- The Best Of Times
8- Disappear
9- Octavarium
10- The Shattered Fortress
The Astonishing album would be number one, but picking a single song to represent it would be impossible :)
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I'll spare ya'll my top 100, but he's my top 10.
1. In the Presence of Enemies
2. Metropolis
3. A Nightmare to Remember
4. Illumination Theory
5. Panic Attack
6. Sacrificed Sons
7. Lost Not Forgotten
8. Endless Sacrifice
9. Home
10. The Ministry of Lost Souls
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I'll spare ya'll my top 100, but he's my top 10.
1. In the Presence of Enemies
2. Metropolis
3. A Nightmare to Remember
4. Illumination Theory
5. Panic Attack
6. Sacrificed Sons
7. Lost Not Forgotten
8. Endless Sacrifice
9. Home
10. The Ministry of Lost Souls
Thank you, thank you, thank you :metal
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10- Just let me breathe
:omg:
That’s for the controversial thread :lol
Seriously, I'll never understand why hardcore DT fans hate that song...
-
10- Just let me breathe
:omg:
That’s for the controversial thread :lol
Seriously, I'll never understand why hardcore DT fans hate that song...
Same. I really dig this song, more than many others on FII
-
As simply as I can put it:
1) The chorus, which is extremely unsatisfying because it barely differs from the verses, yet the transition into (& out of) it is so flow-breaking & abrupt that it implies something wildly different should be there. It's basically impossible to have fun with the song's groove because the transitions are so disjointed & awkward. It also doesn't that JLB just kind of just rambles the lyrics without them following much of a melodic line.
2) The lyrics, which are the most surface-level critiques of the music industry that an angry teenager could write in 5 minutes, & have the subtlety of a brick.
-
10- Just let me breathe
:omg:
That’s for the controversial thread :lol
Seriously, I'll never understand why hardcore DT fans hate that song...
I don't hate it; I just don't think it's very good.
2) The lyrics, which are the most surface-level critiques of the music industry that an angry teenager could write in 5 minutes, & have the subtlety of a brick.
The first of many juvenile MP-is-angry-at-something lyrics.
-
10- Just let me breathe
:omg:
That’s for the controversial thread :lol
Seriously, I'll never understand why hardcore DT fans hate that song...
I don’t hate it, but there’s A LOT other songs I would rank higher than it.
-
10- Just let me breathe
:omg:
That’s for the controversial thread :lol
Seriously, I'll never understand why hardcore DT fans hate that song...
I don’t hate it, but there’s A LOT other songs I would rank higher than it.
Ditto. I don’t hate it, but if I never heard it again, I wouldn’t miss it.
...kind of like FII in general...or my ex wife har har.
-
10- Just let me breathe
:omg:
That’s for the controversial thread :lol
Seriously, I'll never understand why hardcore DT fans hate that song...
I don't hate it; I just don't think it's very good.
Same way I feel. There are a lot of FII songs I like, but JLMB is not one of them. But the song doesn't quite get to the "hate" category.
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I think JLMB is a below average song from DT. I render the studio version useless, honestly. But live, this song comes alive. It has a ton of latent energy that the FII version really doesn't capture.
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2) The lyrics, which are the most surface-level critiques of the music industry that an angry teenager could write in 5 minutes, & have the subtlety of a brick.
I don't dispute your description of the lyrics themselves, but the implication is that the rest of DT's lyrics are a Shakespearian master-class. While they have their moments (and that includes even Mike), they are not.
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2) The lyrics, which are the most surface-level critiques of the music industry that an angry teenager could write in 5 minutes, & have the subtlety of a brick.
I don't dispute your description of the lyrics themselves, but the implication is that the rest of DT's lyrics are a Shakespearian master-class.
Ummm...how do you figure? Saying the lyrics to JLMB "are the most surface-level critiques of the music industry that an angry teenager could write in 5 minutes, & have the subtlety of a brick" neither says nor implies anything about any other DT lyric (much less that all other songs' lyrics are exceptional). I can criticize Song Z without implying anything about Songs A-Y. Are there other DT songs with lyrics that are equally or more cringe-worthy as JLMB? Sure there are, but most are better and many are much better. Also, IMO, comparing something to Shakespeare's works would not be anything even remotely approaching complimentary (with the exception of PMU).
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Some of y'all have never done a top 50 and it shows! Loads of controversial choices drop out of the top 10 to make room for the songs we all love for a reason. I think I had one or two but less than I thought I would have when I went into the exercise.
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I have always liked JLMB, including the lyrics. I don't find anything about them to be "cringe-worthy," and I think thou doth cringe too easily if that be the case for you. :lol I remember years ago on the dt.net forums when we were doing a "rate and review the song" thread, and I gave that song a 7/10. I still stand by that. It is what I would consider to be a good (not great) song, by DT standards. Not my favorite by any stretch, but not at all bad. And, IMO, it rates as high as it does because the lyrics take it up a notch from where I might otherwise rate it.
-
Are there other DT songs with lyrics that are equally or more cringe-worthy as JLMB? Sure there are
I disagree :P
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I have always liked JLMB, including the lyrics. I don't find anything about them to be "cringe-worthy," and I think thou doth cringe too easily if that be the case for you. :lol I remember years ago on the dt.net forums when we were doing a "rate and review the song" thread, and I gave that song a 7/10. I still stand by that. It is what I would consider to be a good (not great) song, by DT standards. Not my favorite by any stretch, but not at all bad. And, IMO, it rates as high as it does because the lyrics take it up a notch from where I might otherwise rate it.
So I just listened to the song again. The instrumentation is great, but I really don't like the melody at all, and the lyric subject matter just makes me want to skip to the next song. I'm glad you like it, I just don't. :)
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2) The lyrics, which are the most surface-level critiques of the music industry that an angry teenager could write in 5 minutes, & have the subtlety of a brick.
I don't dispute your description of the lyrics themselves, but the implication is that the rest of DT's lyrics are a Shakespearian master-class.
Ummm...how do you figure? Saying the lyrics to JLMB "are the most surface-level critiques of the music industry that an angry teenager could write in 5 minutes, & have the subtlety of a brick" neither says nor implies anything about any other DT lyric (much less that all other songs' lyrics are exceptional). I can criticize Song Z without implying anything about Songs A-Y. Are there other DT songs with lyrics that are equally or more cringe-worthy as JLMB? Sure there are, but most are better and many are much better. Also, IMO, comparing something to Shakespeare's works would not be anything even remotely approaching complimentary (with the exception of PMU).
Sure. Most of it is opinion, so free from my criticism, but I think my logic is sound.
- To single out the lyrics of a song means they matter to your liking of a song.
- To single out the lyrics of one song from a band you claim to like DOES imply that those lyrics are exceptional compared to other songs. Else, presumably you wouldn't like the other songs and thus wouldn't like the band.
- It's fair to assume that all or most of the rest of the lyrics in the catalogue are NOT singled out, and are therefore NOT bad.
And I'm saying that's not necessarily true for others. Forget Shakespeare (you're being pedantic on that point; it's symbolism and I think you know that), but I don't think the lyrics of JLMB are any more or less juvenile, surface-level, or unsubtle than many of the other songs in the catalogue. So if that's enough to ruin JLMB, it's hard to reconcile why more songs aren't equally ruined.
-
What are these "other songs" & why can't I find JLMB worse than them lyrically?
-
What are these "other songs" & why can't I find JLMB worse than them lyrically?
Of course you can. Not at all saying otherwise; but with that, you confirm what I'm REALLY talking about, that is, that you DO think them worse than all the other songs.
I'm just noting that it's a sort of harsh and not obvious criticism from an outside perspective. Of course, it's your opinion and no can take that away from you. I can, though, say it's a hard opinion to understand from an outside perspective. And I offered a different, conflicting opinion. (I was told in another thread that also seemed to bag on Portnoy that that's what we do on forums like this. :) ).
As for songs that I don't think are "better" than JLMB lyrically, just on that album:
- You Not Me
- Peruvian Skies (though I love the song)
- Burning My Soul
On other albums:
- Vacant (yes, I know it's about 12 words total, but in my view it's not high literature)
- The Great Debate (and that has NOTHING to do with the politics of it)
- Build Me Up, Break Me Down
This is purely off the top of my head. Surely if I saw the lyrics or thought about it I'd come up with more.
-
- To single out the lyrics of a song means they matter to your liking of a song.
- To single out the lyrics of one song from a band you claim to like DOES imply that those lyrics are exceptional compared to other songs. Else, presumably you wouldn't like the other songs and thus wouldn't like the band.
- It's fair to assume that all or most of the rest of the lyrics in the catalogue are NOT singled out, and are therefore NOT bad.
And I'm saying that's not necessarily true for others. Forget Shakespeare (you're being pedantic on that point; it's symbolism and I think you know that), but I don't think the lyrics of JLMB are any more or less juvenile, surface-level, or unsubtle than many of the other songs in the catalogue. So if that's enough to ruin JLMB, it's hard to reconcile why more songs aren't equally ruined.
The part I highlighted is where opinion comes into it. Your subjective evaluation of JLMB doesn't play into the opinion of "IDontNotDoThings," When IDNDT says that the lyrics of JLMB "are the most surface-level critiques of the music industry that an angry teenager could write in 5 minutes, & have the subtlety of a brick," that opinion does not take into account your opinion that "the lyrics of JLMB are any more or less juvenile, surface-level, or unsubtle than many of the other songs in the catalogue." Since IDNDT may have completely different opinions about the relative merits of JLMB's lyrics and the lyrics of other songs, it's not at all "hard to reconcile why more songs aren't equally ruined." Moreover, who says other "songs aren't equally ruined"? Maybe, for IDNDT, they are. However, JLMB was the only song under discussion, which gets back to my original point....
I completely disagree with your second bullet point above: "To single out the lyrics of one song from a band you claim to like DOES imply that those lyrics are exceptional compared to other songs." No it doesn't -- especially when one particular song is being discussed. Maybe we're having a discussion about about the Los Angeles Rams, and someone says, "Jared Goff" is terrible. That statement implies nothing about any other quarterback, so it would not be appropriate to respond by saying, "well, yeah, but it's not like Josh Rosen is the second coming of Joe Montana." While it may be true, the person commenting on Jared Goff is not implying anything about any other quarterback.
And, just to be clear, what I'm quibbling with is the assertion that IDNDT's expression of an opinion about JLMB's lyrics necessarily implies that the lyrics of other DT songs are exceptionally good (or whatever you hyperbolically meant by the Shakespeare analogy).
-
I completely disagree with your second bullet point above: "To single out the lyrics of one song from a band you claim to like DOES imply that those lyrics are exceptional compared to other songs." No it doesn't -- especially when one particular song is being discussed. Maybe we're having a discussion about about the Los Angeles Rams, and someone says, "Jared Goff" is terrible. That statement implies nothing about any other quarterback, so it would not be appropriate to respond by saying, "well, yeah, but it's not like Josh Rosen is the second coming of Joe Montana." While it may be true, the person commenting on Jared Goff is not implying anything about any other quarterback.
And, just to be clear, what I'm quibbling with is the assertion that IDNDT's expression of an opinion about JLMB's lyrics necessarily implies that the lyrics of other DT songs are exceptionally good (or whatever you hyperbolically meant by the Shakespeare analogy).
We're quibbling about the same thing; I would like to make clear that I'm not questioning IDNDT's opinion. That's hers. I get it.
But your QB analogy isn't complete; we're talking about a BAND that we presumably LIKE. Your logic for the analogy of QBs works, because we have no data on the other QBs. Here, we DO. We - presumably - know that IDNDT is a FAN of Dream Theater. Being a fan of a band - presumably - means you like their music.
- IDNDT doesn't like the lyrics to JLMB;
- IDNDT therefore doesn't like JLMB;
- IDNDT is otherwise a fan of Dream Theater;
- IDNDT therefore likes other DT songs.
I'm not saying this is 100% bulletproof, but it's also not a wild-ass stretch either. There's an underlying logic to the assumption. It's still an assumption, to be sure, but it's not completely without justification.
And further, it's all conversation; I'm not being critical. There doesn't necessarily have to be a logic to what we like.
-
Just because I'm a fan of Dream Theater doesn't mean that I find all of their other songs or lyrics to be exceptional. I also don't like the lyrics to Test That Stumped Them All, Goodnight Kiss, Solitary Shell, Honour Thy Father, I Walk Beside You, Never Enough, parts of A Nightmare To Remember, The Best Of Times, Build Me Up Break Me Down, or S2N, but 1) those lyrics are cringe-worthy at worst, while JLMB's are offensively terrible, & 2) some of those songs are actually good, which helps balance out their worse lyrical moments.
-
We - presumably - know that IDNDT is a FAN of Dream Theater. Being a fan of a band - presumably - means you like their music.
- IDNDT doesn't like the lyrics to JLMB;
- IDNDT therefore doesn't like JLMB;
- IDNDT is otherwise a fan of Dream Theater;
- IDNDT therefore likes other DT songs.
I'm not saying this is 100% bulletproof, but it's also not a wild-ass stretch either. There's an underlying logic to the assumption. It's still an assumption, to be sure, but it's not completely without justification.
The one thing you wrote initially was this: "the implication [of IDNDT's opinion that "[t]he lyrics [of JLMB] are the most surface-level critiques of the music industry that an angry teenager could write in 5 minutes, & have the subtlety of a brick"] is that the rest of DT's lyrics are a Shakespearian master-class."
That's it.
I agree that the comment implies that IDNDT thinks some, but not all (and perhaps even most), other DT songs are lyrically better (whether a little bit better or a lot better). What I had a problem with was the hyperbole about "a Shakespearian master-class." While you may want to chalk up my reaction to your hyperbole as "pedantic," I don't understand the point of defending hyperbole that's so excessive as to be wrong.
Bro hugs and beers?
-
We - presumably - know that IDNDT is a FAN of Dream Theater. Being a fan of a band - presumably - means you like their music.
- IDNDT doesn't like the lyrics to JLMB;
- IDNDT therefore doesn't like JLMB;
- IDNDT is otherwise a fan of Dream Theater;
- IDNDT therefore likes other DT songs.
I'm not saying this is 100% bulletproof, but it's also not a wild-ass stretch either. There's an underlying logic to the assumption. It's still an assumption, to be sure, but it's not completely without justification.
The one thing you wrote initially was this: "the implication [of IDNDT's opinion that "[t]he lyrics [of JLMB] are the most surface-level critiques of the music industry that an angry teenager could write in 5 minutes, & have the subtlety of a brick"] is that the rest of DT's lyrics are a Shakespearian master-class."
That's it.
I agree that the comment implies that IDNDT thinks some, but not all (and perhaps even most), other DT songs are lyrically better (whether a little bit better or a lot better). What I had a problem with was the hyperbole about "a Shakespearian master-class." While you may want to chalk up my reaction to your hyperbole as "pedantic," I don't understand the point of defending hyperbole that's so excessive as to be wrong.
Bro hugs and beers?
Of course. Always.
It was hyperbolic. It was meant more to be funny than absolute, but I get where you're coming from. We're good. :)
-
We - presumably - know that IDNDT is a FAN of Dream Theater. Being a fan of a band - presumably - means you like their music.
- IDNDT doesn't like the lyrics to JLMB;
- IDNDT therefore doesn't like JLMB;
- IDNDT is otherwise a fan of Dream Theater;
- IDNDT therefore likes other DT songs.
I'm not saying this is 100% bulletproof, but it's also not a wild-ass stretch either. There's an underlying logic to the assumption. It's still an assumption, to be sure, but it's not completely without justification.
The one thing you wrote initially was this: "the implication [of IDNDT's opinion that "[t]he lyrics [of JLMB] are the most surface-level critiques of the music industry that an angry teenager could write in 5 minutes, & have the subtlety of a brick"] is that the rest of DT's lyrics are a Shakespearian master-class."
That's it.
I agree that the comment implies that IDNDT thinks some, but not all (and perhaps even most), other DT songs are lyrically better (whether a little bit better or a lot better). What I had a problem with was the hyperbole about "a Shakespearian master-class." While you may want to chalk up my reaction to your hyperbole as "pedantic," I don't understand the point of defending hyperbole that's so excessive as to be wrong.
Bro hugs and beers?
Of course. Always.
It was hyperbolic. It was meant more to be funny than absolute, but I get where you're coming from. We're good. :)
:-* :-*
-
As simply as I can put it:
2) The lyrics, which are the most surface-level critiques of the music industry that an angry teenager could write in 5 minutes, & have the subtlety of a brick.
I couldn't care less about lyrics. Not just these, but any. For me it's all about music.
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10- Just let me breathe
:omg:
That’s for the controversial thread :lol
Seriously, I'll never understand why hardcore DT fans hate that song...
Oh man! I just watched the Sons of Apollo dvd "Live in Plovdiv", and they really breathed (pardon the pun) new life into this song. I highly recommend seeing that it you haven't already.
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As simply as I can put it:
1) The chorus, which is extremely unsatisfying because it barely differs from the verses, yet the transition into (& out of) it is so flow-breaking & abrupt that it implies something wildly different should be there. It's basically impossible to have fun with the song's groove because the transitions are so disjointed & awkward. It also doesn't that JLB just kind of just rambles the lyrics without them following much of a melodic line.
2) The lyrics, which are the most surface-level critiques of the music industry that an angry teenager could write in 5 minutes, & have the subtlety of a brick.
adding to that that it's not known for rhythmic complexity, one of their most simplistic songs in that regard (apart from the ballads of course) Yes, I consider myself a hardcore fan. Yes, I never listen to it nowadays. Back to topic: picking a personal top ten is very hard for me. (which on the other hand speaks for DT IMHO, because as much as I dislike Portnoy, I rarely dislike the songwriting)
-
As simply as I can put it:
1) The chorus, which is extremely unsatisfying because it barely differs from the verses, yet the transition into (& out of) it is so flow-breaking & abrupt that it implies something wildly different should be there. It's basically impossible to have fun with the song's groove because the transitions are so disjointed & awkward. It also doesn't that JLB just kind of just rambles the lyrics without them following much of a melodic line.
2) The lyrics, which are the most surface-level critiques of the music industry that an angry teenager could write in 5 minutes, & have the subtlety of a brick.
adding to that that it's not known for rhythmic complexity, one of their most simplistic songs in that regard (apart from the ballads of course) Yes, I consider myself a hardcore fan. Yes, I never listen to it nowadays. Back to topic: picking a personal top ten is very hard for me. (which on the other hand speaks for DT IMHO, because as much as I dislike Portnoy, I rarely dislike the songwriting)
I'm very confused about what you're trying to say here :huh:
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As simply as I can put it:
1) The chorus, which is extremely unsatisfying because it barely differs from the verses, yet the transition into (& out of) it is so flow-breaking & abrupt that it implies something wildly different should be there. It's basically impossible to have fun with the song's groove because the transitions are so disjointed & awkward. It also doesn't that JLB just kind of just rambles the lyrics without them following much of a melodic line.
2) The lyrics, which are the most surface-level critiques of the music industry that an angry teenager could write in 5 minutes, & have the subtlety of a brick.
adding to that that it's not known for rhythmic complexity, one of their most simplistic songs in that regard (apart from the ballads of course) Yes, I consider myself a hardcore fan. Yes, I never listen to it nowadays. Back to topic: picking a personal top ten is very hard for me. (which on the other hand speaks for DT IMHO, because as much as I dislike Portnoy, I rarely dislike the songwriting)
I'm very confused about what you're trying to say here :huh:
a) why JLMB is (IMHO) so disliked among us hardcore fans (myself included) and b) being back on topic again, why it's hard for me to find my top 10 songs by them (because so many of them are good concerning the songwriting aspect (IMHO again)
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1. Learning to Live
2. Lines in the Sand
3. Space-Dye Vest
4. Surrounded
5. Voices
6. A Change of Seasons
7. Scarred
8. Trail of Tears
9. Under a Glass Moon
10. Only a Matter of Time
Post-FII honorary mentions: Fatal Tragedy, Finally Free, The Great Debate, In the Name of God, This Is the Life, Breaking All Illusions, A New Beginning, Moment of Betrayal, The Path That Divides, At Wit's End
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I have just now read that whole discussion about Mirror/Lie - you guys are absolutely :rollin :rollin :rollin
I don't want to spark this conversation again, but I just wanted to say, Scotty, I am on your side :lol I ALWAYS listen to Mirror and Lie in one sitting. If I can't consider them one song (if lord boskaryus commands so), I'd like to call them a suite. Wait For Sleep and Learning To Live (they have been mentioned by Bosk in the discussion) as well as Far From Heaven and Breaking All Illusions belong together for me too.
AND Northern Lion: you're not weird, I do that too! I have edited versions of all those DT songs you mentioned, as well as Fly From Here (Yes), all the NDV era Spock's Beard long tracks, Spock's Beard's Healing Colours Of Sound, the early Chicago epics, and MANY more.
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I have just now read that whole discussion about Mirror/Lie - you guys are absolutely :rollin :rollin :rollin
I don't want to spark this conversation again, but I just wanted to say, Scotty, I am on your side :lol I ALWAYS listen to Mirror and Lie in one sitting. If I can't consider them one song (if lord boskaryus commands so), I'd like to call them a suite. Wait For Sleep and Learning To Live (they have been mentioned by Bosk in the discussion) as well as Far From Heaven and Breaking All Illusions belong together for me too.
AND Northern Lion: you're not weird, I do that too! I have edited versions of all those DT songs you mentioned, as well as Fly From Here (Yes), all the NDV era Spock's Beard long tracks, Spock's Beard's Healing Colours Of Sound, the early Chicago epics, and MANY more.
Thanks man! :tup
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I have just now read that whole discussion about Mirror/Lie - you guys are absolutely :rollin :rollin :rollin
I don't want to spark this conversation again, but I just wanted to say, Scotty, I am on your side :lol I ALWAYS listen to Mirror and Lie in one sitting. If I can't consider them one song (if lord boskaryus commands so), I'd like to call them a suite. Wait For Sleep and Learning To Live (they have been mentioned by Bosk in the discussion) as well as Far From Heaven and Breaking All Illusions belong together for me too.
What about A Mind Beside Itself?
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I have just now read that whole discussion about Mirror/Lie - you guys are absolutely :rollin :rollin :rollin
I don't want to spark this conversation again, but I just wanted to say, Scotty, I am on your side :lol I ALWAYS listen to Mirror and Lie in one sitting. If I can't consider them one song (if lord boskaryus commands so), I'd like to call them a suite. Wait For Sleep and Learning To Live (they have been mentioned by Bosk in the discussion) as well as Far From Heaven and Breaking All Illusions belong together for me too.
What about A Mind Beside Itself?
Not as cohesive as the mentioned, and of course these songs also function on their own very well. But I like to listen to them most in one sitting and I would consider them a "suite", too. And yes, I have a programmed track containing the three songs :lol
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I have just now read that whole discussion about Mirror/Lie - you guys are absolutely :rollin :rollin :rollin
I don't want to spark this conversation again, but I just wanted to say, Scotty, I am on your side :lol I ALWAYS listen to Mirror and Lie in one sitting. If I can't consider them one song (if lord boskaryus commands so), I'd like to call them a suite. Wait For Sleep and Learning To Live (they have been mentioned by Bosk in the discussion) as well as Far From Heaven and Breaking All Illusions belong together for me too.
What about A Mind Beside Itself?
Not as cohesive as the mentioned, and of course these songs also function on their own very well. But I like to listen to them most in one sitting and I would consider them a "suite", too. And yes, I have a programmed track containing the three songs :lol
I have done the same thing. And considering these three songs have a greater name attached to them to link them together, it just makes sense imho.
And, to add to your list above, I think Vacant and Stream of Consciousness could also also fall into that category.
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I have just now read that whole discussion about Mirror/Lie - you guys are absolutely :rollin :rollin :rollin
I don't want to spark this conversation again, but I just wanted to say, Scotty, I am on your side :lol I ALWAYS listen to Mirror and Lie in one sitting. If I can't consider them one song (if lord boskaryus commands so), I'd like to call them a suite. Wait For Sleep and Learning To Live (they have been mentioned by Bosk in the discussion) as well as Far From Heaven and Breaking All Illusions belong together for me too.
What about A Mind Beside Itself?
Not as cohesive as the mentioned, and of course these songs also function on their own very well. But I like to listen to them most in one sitting and I would consider them a "suite", too. And yes, I have a programmed track containing the three songs :lol
I have done the same thing. And considering these three songs have a greater name attached to them to link them together, it just makes sense imho.
And, to add to your list above, I think Vacant and Stream of Consciousness could also also fall into that category.
100%, I totally forgot about these two.
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Returning to the topic... I had to put some thought into this. The first 4 were no-brainers. 5-7 are actually in no particular order. But I had to put those gaps in there. 8 and 10 are among my favourites, but those could change one day.
1. Octavarium
2. Learning To Live
3. A Nightmare To Remember
4. The Dance Of Eternity
5. In The Presence Of Enemies
6. The Count Of Tuscany
7. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
8. Finally Free
9. On The Backs Of Angels
10. Trial Of Tears
Yeah, I'm a longtrack guy, I admit it.
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1. Scarred
2. Misunderstood
3. Voices
4. Octavarium
5. Learning to Live
6. The Glass Prison
7. In the Name of God
8. The Spirit Carries On
9. Stream of Consciousness
10. The Root of All Evil
I'm a huge fan of Awake, and I used to watch Live at Budokan and Score religiously. I think it shows in my rankings.
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1. Scarred
2. Misunderstood
3. Voices
4. Octavarium
5. Learning to Live
6. The Glass Prison
7. In the Name of God
8. The Spirit Carries On
9. Stream of Consciousness
10. The Root of All Evil
I'm a huge fan of Awake, and I used to watch Live at Budokan and Score religiously. I think it shows in my rankings.
Those two came out during the time I was getting into the band and I think there is no word that can better describe how my relationship was with them than "religious" :lol
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1. A Change of Seasons
2. Home
3. Octavarium
4. Metropolis Pt. 1: The Miracle and the Sleeper
5. Pull Me Under
6. Panic Attack
7. The Glass Prison
8. Finally Free
9. The Dance of Eternity
10. Space-Dye Vest
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Now nearly 5 years into listening my list may have settled more
1. Octavarium
2-6: in no particular order
ItPoE 1&2 (live)
Home
Change of Seasons
Breaking All Illusions
Illumination Theory
7. Count of Tuscany
8. Mirror/Lie - (live) :xbones
9. Bridges in the Sky
10. Three Days
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10. I
9. Couldn't
8. Possibly
7. Rank
6. My
5. Top
4. Ten
3. Dream
2. Theater
1. Octavarium
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10. I
9. Couldn't
8. Possibly
7. Rank
6. My
5. Top
4. Ten
3. Dream
2. Theater
1. Octavarium
Love it!!! :heart
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10. I
9. Couldn't
8. Possibly
7. Rank
6. My
5. Top
4. Ten
3. Dream
2. Theater
1. Octavarium
Perfect!
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1. Octavarium
2. Metropolis Pt 1
3. Learning to Live
4. Six Degrees
5. A Change of Seasons
6. Only A Matter of Time
7. The Spirit Carries On
8. Vacant/Stream of Consciousness
9. Bridges in the Sky
10. Surrender to Reason
PS Another Won
Honorable Mention. YAAAAAAAAH in Your Majesty
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My top 5 are more or less set in stone, beyond that it gets increasingly subject to day-to-day variation.
1. Learning to Live
2. The Count of Tuscany
3. Overture 1928/Strange Deja Vu
4. Trial of Tears
5. A Change of Seasons
6. Beyond This Life
7. Fatal Tragedy
8. Another Day
9. The Glass Prison
10. The Killing Hand (LatM arrangement with JLB vocals)
Honorable mentions: Octavarium, Raise the Knife, Home, The Dance of Eternity, Stream of Consciousness
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[REDACTED]
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I couldn't make a top 10 list, but I do have my top 5:
1). Scarred
2). A Mind Beside Itself:
I. Erotomania
II. Voices
III. The Silent Man
3). The Ones Who Help To Set The Sun
4). Light Fuse And Get Away
5). Disappear
That's an interesting list; two from WDADU.
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1) The Spirit Carries On - I still tear up every single time I hear this. What a beautiful piece of music. Some of the live versions are simply incredible.
2) Octavarium - simply put, perfection. I like what someone else wrote - I love all the meta moments in it; the numerology of it all, the story ends where it began... and the live version with JL playing keys while Jordan plays continuum - awesome
3) Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - I never really considered it one song, until Score... I was there for the recording - and we recognized right away that it was an actual orchestra... amazing. (My favorites are About to Crash and Solitary Shell to the end)
4) Wait for Sleep/Learning to Live - I know it is a cheat to list them together, but with the reprise of sleep, if feels more prog to include them together
5) Metropolis, Pt. 1 - I still get goose bumps every time I hear the intro keyboard motif..
6) Pull Me Under - funny trivia - took me until opening for Iron Maiden in 2010 at the Garden to hear this live. And my first show was 2002... (yes I was late to the party)
7) On the Backs of Angels - my favorite song of the Mangini era. Such a great track that perfectly encapsulates this band
8) Fatal Tragedy - actually the first DT song I ever heard on the radio, in 1999. I was hooked. And I have "talked about (it) for years..."
9) Peruvian Skies - loved the live 2005 version with Wherever I May Room in the outro. So cool.
10) As I Am - the song just kicks my ass, every single time I hear it. And I love the "justify/just defy" lyrical twist. OK, and "Eat my ass and balls", too.
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TOP TEN DREAM THEATER SONGS:
01. Lines In The Sand
02. The Spirit Carries On
03. Metropolis - Part I: "The Miracle and the Sleeper"
04. Surrounded
05. The Great Debate
06. Honor Thy Father
07. Breaking All Illusions
08. A Change of Seasons
09. Scarred
10. The Count of Tuscany
RUNNERS UP:
The Killing Hand
Home
The Root of All Evil
The Glass Prison
Light Fuse and Getaway
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1. Octavarium
2. The Glass Prison
3. A Change of Seasons (LSFNY version)
4. Learning To Live
5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
6. Fatal Tragedy
7. 6:00
8. Metropolis Pt 1
9. The Count of Tuscany
10. A Nightmare to Remember
11. Caught In A Web
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1. The Count of Tuscany
2. Octavarium
3. A Change of Seasons
4. ItPoE
5. A Nightmare to Remember
6. The Glass Prison
7. Breaking All Illusions
8. The Ministry of Lost Souls
9. Act II: Scene Six: Home
10. In the Name of God
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In chronological order...
Light Fuse and Get Away
Metropolis, Pt. 1
Under a Glass Moon
Learning To Live
Voices
Lifting Shadows off a Dream
A Change of Seasons
Trial of Tears
Home
Blind Faith
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TOP TEN DREAM THEATER SONGS:
01. Lines In The Sand
02. The Spirit Carries On
03. Metropolis - Part I: "The Miracle and the Sleeper"
04. Surrounded
05. The Great Debate
06. Honor Thy Father
07. Breaking All Illusions
08. A Change of Seasons
09. Scarred
10. The Count of Tuscany
RUNNERS UP:
The Killing Hand
Home
The Root of All Evil
The Glass Prison
Light Fuse and Getaway
That’s a great list but wow does HTF stick out like a sore thumb.
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1. The Count of Tuscany
2. Octavarium
3. A Change of Seasons
4. ItPoE
5. A Nightmare to Remember
6. The Glass Prison
7. Breaking All Illusions
8. The Ministry of Lost Souls
9. Act II: Scene Six: Home
10. In the Name of God
This is a great list :metal
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Oh yeah! Here´s my take. Not sure about the order, though. Changes by the mood, i guess.
1. I Walk Beside you (All time Best!)
2. Vacant / Stream of Consciousness (All time second best! I like to think of these as a one song.)
3. Just Let Me Breathe (Rocks your socks off)
4. Scarred (Epic and amazing solos)
5. Lifting Shadows Off A Dream (Very good song and amazing vocals by labrie)
6. A Change of Seasons (There isn´t anything I don´t like about this song)
7. The Glass Prison (Heavy as hell and wonderfully mixed)
8. Take Away My Pain (Good lyrics and a stellar songs)
9. Beyond This Life (I love the solo-section in this song!)
10. Raise The Knife
I´ll also give you the 10 worst songs haha.
I´m not going to include anything from The Astonishing, Dramatic turn of Events and the self-titled because I really don´t care that much of any of those albums. Also i´ll exclude WDADU. I like the songs, but the album sounds so bad that I rarely listen to it.
These are not in order.
1. Caught In A Web (The main synth lead is painful. Never liked it nor the song)
2. Pull Me Under (Doesn´t click. Always skip.)
3. The Ministry of Lost Souls (I've always found this amazingly boring and the instrumental section in the middle is like from a different song.)
4. Repentance (About as boring as it gets.)
5. Home (I really can´t say what it is about this song that I don´t like. From the first time i heard it in 2000 until the last time in Distant Memories, I´ve never liked it)
6. Prophets of War (Does nothing for me.)
7. Under A Glass Moon
8. Pale Blue Dot ( Weak chorus and overall weak song.)
9. Fall into the Light (The vocal melodies in verse and chorus are about as weak as they get. The Chorus is one of the worst and the middle section makes me want to skip the track if i haven´t done it already.)
10. I can´t think of anything else :)
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Those are some very interesting choices. At least 3 tracks in your best list are probably very high on my worst list, but y'know, tastes. ;)
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TOP TEN DREAM THEATER SONGS:
01. Lines In The Sand
02. The Spirit Carries On
03. Metropolis - Part I: "The Miracle and the Sleeper"
04. Surrounded
05. The Great Debate
06. Honor Thy Father
07. Breaking All Illusions
08. A Change of Seasons
09. Scarred
10. The Count of Tuscany
RUNNERS UP:
The Killing Hand
Home
The Root of All Evil
The Glass Prison
Light Fuse and Getaway
That’s a great list but wow does HTF and TGD stick out like a sore thumb.
ftfy
1. I Walk Beside you (All time Best!)
Good candidate for the controversial opinions thread.
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Hmmm I love TGD
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TOP TEN DREAM THEATER SONGS:
01. Lines In The Sand
02. The Spirit Carries On
03. Metropolis - Part I: "The Miracle and the Sleeper"
04. Surrounded
05. The Great Debate
06. Honor Thy Father
07. Breaking All Illusions
08. A Change of Seasons
09. Scarred
10. The Count of Tuscany
RUNNERS UP:
The Killing Hand
Home
The Root of All Evil
The Glass Prison
Light Fuse and Getaway
That’s a great list but wow does HTF and TGD stick out like a sore thumb.
ftfy
Hmmm I love TGD
HTF might not be that good, but TGD is amazing, I love it so much every time it pops up in my DT shuffle.
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[REDACTED]
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Hard not to just tracklist I&W for my top 8...
1. Learning to Live
2. The Glass Prison
3. A Change of Seasons
4. About to Crash
5. Under A Glass Moon
6. Breaking All Illusions
7. Metropolis Pt 1
8. Strange Deja Vu
9. The Root of All Evil
10. Voices
10. In the Presence of Enemies Pt 1 (edit I had 11 somehow, consider these tied)
ETA: this really made me consider where AWE fits in since it’s tier 1 IMO but not enough to break top 10... and flip side some reflection on what a great song BAI is.
Had a lot of extra listening time this past year (:smiley:) which I used on a lot of old and a lot of new esoteric stuff... perspectives that made me realize there’s a DT song above all others I didn’t have in my top 10 before:
1. In the Name of God - I’ve always loved this one but there’s been countless times recently I’ve heard something and thought OK but ITNOG did it better. Has to be objectively my favorite. Scientifically the best song of all time, probably ;)
2. Learning to Live - subjectively my favorite, pre-internet too I thought I was the only one haha
3. About to Crash - so so gooood
4. Breaking all Illusions - ok so if it’s a copy of #2 great the more the merrier lmao
5. Beyond this Life - the kitchen sink song has everything and more
6. A Change of Seasons - the band of I&W and Awake could do no wrong, and with this they didn’t
7. Strang Deja Vu - favorite from SFAM as a story song, it’s the one that makes me want to experience the whole album, also final verse is tops in DT catalog
8. In the Presence of Enemies - I remember how I felt with each first song of each album, and this one checked me that the metal was back. Plus hearing it on last tour? Awesome +1
9. The Root of All Evil - hard time in my life, great album, fantastic song
10. Voices - the whole suite really, but make me pick and it’s voices.
Special mentions to like 20 other songs :metal
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1. In the Name of God - I’ve always loved this one but there’s been countless times recently I’ve heard something and thought OK but ITNOG did it better. Has to be objectively my favorite. Scientifically the best song of all time, probably ;)
2. Learning to Live - subjectively my favorite, pre-internet too I thought I was the only one haha
3. About to Crash - so so gooood
4. Breaking all Illusions - ok so if it’s a copy of #2 great the more the merrier lmao
5. Beyond this Life - the kitchen sink song has everything and more
6. A Change of Seasons - the band of I&W and Awake could do no wrong, and with this they didn’t
7. Strang Deja Vu - favorite from SFAM as a story song, it’s the one that makes me want to experience the whole album, also final verse is tops in DT catalog
8. In the Presence of Enemies - I remember how I felt with each first song of each album, and this one checked me that the metal was back. Plus hearing it on last tour? Awesome +1
9. The Root of All Evil - hard time in my life, great album, fantastic song
10. Voices - the whole suite really, but make me pick and it’s voices.
Nice list, but what does this comment mean? :lol
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Oh, let's do this, sure! It's been years since I tried to rank their songs and some of these on the list I haven't listened to in quite a while either :lol
1. Metropolis Pt. 1 - The Miracle and the Sleeper
2. Innocence Faded
3. Surrounded
4. Scene Six: Home
5. The Great Debate
6. Take the Time
7. The Enemy Inside
8. Octavarium
9. Space-Dye Vest
10. A Change of Seasons
Honestly though, everything beyond #1 was a bit random, but this is probably sort-of what my top 10 would look like now.
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Learning to Live
Voices
Eve
A Change of Seasons
Hell's Kitchen
Beyond this Life
Hollow Years (live at Budokan)
Octavarium
illumination Theory
Space Dye Vest (live from Boston Opera House)
in no particular order, was quite tough, but these are my most listened to
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1. Breaking All Illusions
2. At Wit's End
3. Trial of Tears
4. Scarred
5. Illumination Theory
6. Our New World
7. Surrounded
8. S2N
9. Metropolis Pt. 1
10. Peruvian Skies
SDOIT, Mirror/Lie, and Through My Words/Fatal Tragedy was in my top 10 for a long time but the new songs were really amazing. Would have included Barstool Warrior if this list is expanded.
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Hmmmm....ten huh?
1. A Change of Seasons
2. Learning to Live
3. Voices
4. Opening sequence to SFAM (Regression/SDejaVu/FatalTragedy)
5. Home
6. Lines in the Sand
7. Raise the Knife
8. The Root of All Evil
9. The Killing Hand
10. Trial of Tears
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1. Octavarium
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
3. Wait For Sleep/Learning To Live
4. A Change Of Seasons
5. The Glass Prison
6. Metropolis Pt. 1
7. Scarred
8. The Count of Tuscany
9. Fatal Tragedy
10. Under A Glass Moon
Honorable Mention: A Nightmare To Remember.
The first half alone would put it in my top 10, but the transition into the awesome guitar and keyboard solos is rough, and then the song takes a nosedive, but I enjoy the first half so much I had to put it here.
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Let's do this again:
1. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
2. Fatal Tragedy
3. Octavarium
4. Learning to Live
5. Home
6. Beyond This Life
7. Metropolis Pt 1
8. A Change of Seasons
9. The Spirit Carries On
10. Voices
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TOP TEN DREAM THEATER SONGS:
01. Lines In The Sand
02. The Spirit Carries On
03. Metropolis - Part I: "The Miracle and the Sleeper"
04. Surrounded
05. The Great Debate
06. Honor Thy Father
07. Breaking All Illusions
08. A Change of Seasons
09. Scarred
10. The Count of Tuscany
RUNNERS UP:
The Killing Hand
Home
The Root of All Evil
The Glass Prison
Light Fuse and Getaway
That’s a great list but wow does HTF stick out like a sore thumb.
"Don't cross the crooked step"
(https://pa1.narvii.com/6699/acf37a50de778a7be27c385a21c414c0b7d61508_hq.gif)
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My Top 10:
A Change of Seasons
Metropolis Part I
Scarred
Voices
Under a Glass Moon
In the Name of God
Breaking All Illusions
Learning to Live
The Mirror
Home
I'm still good with this. Maybe change the order around after UAGM, but I'm pretty sure that would remain consistent.
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Didn't think I was going to be able to do this.
In no particular order:
Metropolis
Learning to Live
Scarred
A Change of Seasons
Home
Blind Faith
SDOIT
Octavarium
Breaking All Illusions
Illumination Theory
Honorable mention: Stream of Consciousness
I wasn't sure I'd responded in this thread.
Looking at my list, I think I would probably remove Illumination Theory - not so much that I don't like it as much, but because I think there are stronger songs.
I have no songs from WDADU, and that wouldn't change. I might theoretically take the Live at the Marquee version of The Killing Hand, but that's cheating (I think).
I have no songs from FII, SC, BC&SL, TA or DOT. Don't think that would change either (definitely not as to the first four).
Thinking about my next favorite songs from the other albums, I'm thinking the most likely candidate to replace IT would be In the Name of God. Or maybe Finally free or Fatal Tragedy.
EDIT...because it's not just A Killing Hand, it's THE Killing Hand. :lol
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If live versions were included, I would definitely have TKH on the list.
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That was tough to do and I'm not completely sure about all my choices and placements. But I feel comfortable with this list.
1. Hell's Kitchen
2. Learning to Live
3. Vacant
4. Bridges in the Sky
5. Sacrificed Sons
6. Pale Blue Dot
7. Lifting Shadows off a Dream
8. The Path That Divides
9. S2N
10. Peruvian Skies
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I'm very surprised how beloved The Spirit Carries On is (many people here have put it on their top 10 list), since it's a BALLAD.
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Tough one for sure!
1. A Change of Seasons
2. Learning to Live
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4. Metropolis pt. 1
5. Scarred
6. Lines in the Sand
7. Voices
8. Glass Prison
9. Trial of Tears
10.Breaking All Illusions
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I'm very surprised how beloved The Spirit Carries On is (many people here have put it on their top 10 list), since it's a BALLAD.
Do I dare ask - what’s wrong with ballads??
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I'm very surprised how beloved The Spirit Carries On is (many people here have put it on their top 10 list), since it's a BALLAD.
Do I dare ask - what’s wrong with ballads??
This is just a guess, but maybe he's surprised because some Dream Theater songs that are generally more disliked tend to be ballads? I've seen a lot of dislike for Anna Lee, The Ministry of Lost Souls, Along for the Ride, and the few ballads on The Astonishing, to give some examples.
That being said, I've always been under the impression that The Spirit Carries On was a fan-favorite song, though, so it doesn't surprise me that it's made so many Top 10s (I know it's in my Top 20 somewhere), regardless of how liked or disliked Dream Theater's ballads are. Personally I tend to really enjoy Dream Theater's ballads in general.
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I'm very surprised how beloved The Spirit Carries On is (many people here have put it on their top 10 list), since it's a BALLAD.
Do I dare ask - what’s wrong with ballads??
There's nothing wrong with ballads per se, but I know most metal fans are not fans of them.
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I'm very surprised how beloved The Spirit Carries On is (many people here have put it on their top 10 list), since it's a BALLAD.
Do I dare ask - what’s wrong with ballads??
There's nothing wrong with ballads per se, but I know most metal fans are not fans of them.
You haven't been to many metal shows have you? Never saw 10,000 maniacs in full leather and denim with their lighters in the air?
That will go in your top ten of most ridiculous statements on this forum.
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Not sure if I’ve done this before but let’s see what I can come up with
Learning To Live
Metropolis pt. I
Take The Time
Space Dye Vest
A Change Of Seasons
Trial Of Tears
The Spirit Carries On
Breaking All Illusions
Not sure about the last 2 spots. Lots of contenders but not sure I can settle on 2 of them. Some contenders would be
Surrounded
Another Day
Lines In The Sand
Home
The Count Of Tuscany
The Bigger Picture
Illumination Theory
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Is awesome to see so much love for Learning To Live, it's such an amazing song (and such a beautifully arranged ending).
My top ten (not in any particular order)
-Learning To Live
-Stream of Consciousness
-At Wits End
-A Change of Seasons
-In The Presence of the Enemies (Pt 1/2)
-Panic Attack
-Lines in the Sand
-Metropolis Pt.1
-The Glass Prison
- Home
Couldn't remember if I listen my top 10. I guess 2 years later, not much has changed except I would take out Home and At Wits End.
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I'm very surprised how beloved The Spirit Carries On is (many people here have put it on their top 10 list), since it's a BALLAD.
Do I dare ask - what’s wrong with ballads??
There's nothing wrong with ballads per se, but I know most metal fans are not fans of them.
You haven't been to many metal shows have you? Never saw 10,000 maniacs in full leather and denim with their lighters in the air?
That will go in your top ten of most ridiculous statements on this forum.
I don't get what you've said here. What maniacs in full leather and denim at metal shows has to do with liking/disliking ballads?
And explain what is exactly ridiculous about my statement?
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I don't listen to metal that much and I don't care for ballads most of the time.
but The Spirit Carries On is a good song, ballad or not. Ballads are often not good songs IMO. Sometimes the format is not suited to the band/artist's style, since I've heard alternate renditions of slow songs/ballads in different musical contexts and they work very well.
IMO DT is one of the few bands that is good at writing ballads, but they've also put out their share of not so good ones.
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I'm very surprised how beloved The Spirit Carries On is (many people here have put it on their top 10 list), since it's a BALLAD.
Do I dare ask - what’s wrong with ballads??
There's nothing wrong with ballads per se, but I know most metal fans are not fans of them.
Oh good grief. Sometimes I think you think to yourself, "What's the most ridiculous thing I can say here?"
The point of Stadler's comment was that, at many metal shows, the ballad is the song that draw the biggest audience reaction. Ballads also are often the "hit single" off a metal band's album. Both of those things illustrate the absurdity of your assertion that "most metal fans are not fans of" ballads.
I too don't quite get all the love for TSCO, but it has nothing to do with it being a "ballad."
Do you have any empirical evidence to support your assertion that "most metal fans are not fans of" ballads?
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I'm very surprised how beloved The Spirit Carries On is (many people here have put it on their top 10 list), since it's a BALLAD.
Do I dare ask - what’s wrong with ballads??
There's nothing wrong with ballads per se, but I know most metal fans are not fans of them.
You haven't been to many metal shows have you? Never saw 10,000 maniacs in full leather and denim with their lighters in the air?
That will go in your top ten of most ridiculous statements on this forum.
I don't get what you've said here. What maniacs in full leather and denim at metal shows has to do with liking/disliking ballads?
And explain what is exactly ridiculous about my statement?
You said point blank that "most metal fans are not fans of [ballads]". That's what's ridiculous, for two reasons: one, you haven't spoken to "most metal fans" so you have no friggin' idea generally, and two, when I've gone to metal shows - and I've been to quite a few at this point - some of the best reactions have been for the ballads (thus indicated by the crowd raising their lighters during the song). I can remember Motley Crue getting probably their best reaction to "Home Sweet Home" in '87. I don't know if Scorpions are "metal", per se, but "Still Loving You" brought the house down when I saw them in '84. Ozzy's only UK number one? His remake of his own "Changes". "Mama, I'm Coming Home" is also one of his more successful singles, and he was a big part of Lita Ford's only real hit, "Close My Eyes Forever".
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Not only that, but it's not like all DT fans are "metal fans". Many (most?) are "prog fans", and many more would characterize themselves as a mix, or something else entirely, so it doesn't really matter what most "metal fans" like, even if you could make such a generalization, which you can't.
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I'm very surprised how beloved The Spirit Carries On is (many people here have put it on their top 10 list), since it's a BALLAD.
Do I dare ask - what’s wrong with ballads??
There's nothing wrong with ballads per se, but I know most metal fans are not fans of them.
You haven't been to many metal shows have you? Never saw 10,000 maniacs in full leather and denim with their lighters in the air?
That will go in your top ten of most ridiculous statements on this forum.
What are the other nine? :)
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Not only that, but it's not like all DT fans are "metal fans". Many (most?) are "prog fans", and many more would characterize themselves as a mix, or something else entirely, so it doesn't really matter what most "metal fans" like, even if you could make such a generalization, which you can't.
Yes. Also Beyond the Realms of Death is my favorite Priest song and We’ll Burn the Sky my fave Scorpions song and both have lengthy acoustic sections. Oh no they can’t be good songs! Whatever will I do?
Ridiculous.
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I'm very surprised how beloved The Spirit Carries On is (many people here have put it on their top 10 list), since it's a BALLAD.
Do I dare ask - what’s wrong with ballads??
There's nothing wrong with ballads per se, but I know most metal fans are not fans of them.
You haven't been to many metal shows have you? Never saw 10,000 maniacs in full leather and denim with their lighters in the air?
That will go in your top ten of most ridiculous statements on this forum.
I don't get what you've said here. What maniacs in full leather and denim at metal shows has to do with liking/disliking ballads?
And explain what is exactly ridiculous about my statement?
You said point blank that "most metal fans are not fans of [ballads]". That's what's ridiculous, for two reasons: one, you haven't spoken to "most metal fans" so you have no friggin' idea generally, and two, when I've gone to metal shows - and I've been to quite a few at this point - some of the best reactions have been for the ballads (thus indicated by the crowd raising their lighters during the song). I can remember Motley Crue getting probably their best reaction to "Home Sweet Home" in '87. I don't know if Scorpions are "metal", per se, but "Still Loving You" brought the house down when I saw them in '84. Ozzy's only UK number one? His remake of his own "Changes". "Mama, I'm Coming Home" is also one of his more successful singles, and he was a big part of Lita Ford's only real hit, "Close My Eyes Forever".
Those are all great songs, but I rank power ballads differently than just regular ballads, if that makes any sense. The ones you listed I consider to be power ballads which I think are more accessible to metal fans. I'm a prog/metal fan that can appreciate a good ballad here and there. Too many and I start to get bored (TA). Another example, I consider "This is the Life" on ADTOE a great power ballad. However, BTS and FFH are slow ballads. Don't like them at all. Not just because they're slow per se, but because I felt that TITL was enough for one album and the aforementioned were just a little too much and didn't live up to some of their other ballads such as "Wait for Sleep", "The Silent Man" and "Anna Lee".
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Thinking more about this; DT certainly has slower tempo songs, but do they really have a true "power ballad"? I don't think so. MAYBE "I Walk Beside You", but they don't have an "Every Rose Has It's Thorn", or a "Sister Christian", even if just for the lyrical content. I love "This Is The Life" - I think I put it at number two - but I'm not sure it's a "ballad", is it?
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Thinking more about this; DT certainly has slower tempo songs, but do they really have a true "power ballad"? I don't think so. MAYBE "I Walk Beside You", but they don't have an "Every Rose Has It's Thorn", or a "Sister Christian", even if just for the lyrical content. I love "This Is The Life" - I think I put it at number two - but I'm not sure it's a "ballad", is it?
Out of curiosity, if it's not a ballad, what else would it be?
I also think that with ballads in the context of metal, it does tend to be a kind of love it or hate it thing. Because they stand out in terms of dynamics, that often opens it up to both having more emotional punch yet also some being like "wtf where are my riffs". However, the latter are really kind of a minority that inhabit the review sections of Metal Archives (check the negative reviews of SfaM on there to see how some people just legit flip out whenever there's a softer, more sensitive song) as opposed to the more general audience.
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Thinking more about this; DT certainly has slower tempo songs, but do they really have a true "power ballad"? I don't think so. MAYBE "I Walk Beside You", but they don't have an "Every Rose Has It's Thorn", or a "Sister Christian", even if just for the lyrical content. I love "This Is The Life" - I think I put it at number two - but I'm not sure it's a "ballad", is it?
Out of curiosity, if it's not a ballad, what else would it be?
I also think that with ballads in the context of metal, it does tend to be a kind of love it or hate it thing. Because they stand out in terms of dynamics, that often opens it up to both having more emotional punch yet also some being like "wtf where are my riffs". However, the latter are really kind of a minority that inhabit the review sections of Metal Archives (check the negative reviews of SfaM on there to see how some people just legit flip out whenever there's a softer, more sensitive song) as opposed to the more general audience.
I'm not sure I have an answer for you! :)
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I love "This Is The Life" - I think I put it at number two - but I'm not sure it's a "ballad", is it?
This Is The Life is simply their most well written song. It's perfectly put together..IMHO.
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See, I view ballads as generally more emotionally intimate tracks (both musically and lyrically) that have a gentler texture than the band's usual catalogue. I don't really see how This is the Life wouldn't fit the bill in that regard.
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Thinking more about this; DT certainly has slower tempo songs, but do they really have a true "power ballad"? I don't think so. MAYBE "I Walk Beside You", but they don't have an "Every Rose Has It's Thorn", or a "Sister Christian", even if just for the lyrical content. I love "This Is The Life" - I think I put it at number two - but I'm not sure it's a "ballad", is it?
I consider TITL a power ballad because it starts out slow and then builds up and has sections of distortion pedal and a rockin' solo section. It takes a normal ballad to the next level. I feel that "Lifting Shadows off a Dream" does the same sort of thing as well as "Wither" just off the top of my head.
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The first song that came to my mind thinking of a Dream Theater power ballad was Another Day.
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The first song that came to my mind thinking of a Dream Theater power ballad was Another Day.
Absolutely! That one definitely fits.
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Okay, I'll buy that. It was a sincere question; I wasn't trying to imply it WASN'T.
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Not at all Stads. It's all good.
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Yes, no worries :tup
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Along For The Ride is another song that really screams "power ballad" to me.
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Obviously, any endeavor like this is fraught with peril....well, can be difficult. But here goes:
1. A Change of Seasons
2. Learning to Live
3. Lines in the Sand
4. Voices
5. As I Am
6. SFAM Intro (Regression/Overture/1928/Strange Deja Vu/Through My Words - this is a single piece of music and I will countenance no debate on the topic)
7. Raise the Knife
8. Fatal Tragedy
9. Metropolis
10. Scarred
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I have to have 11. They can be in any order.
ACOS
Octavarium
ITPOE 1,2
IT
BTL
TCoT
BAI
AWE
LItS
Home
FF
Give me the longs songs any day!
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The first song that came to my mind thinking of a Dream Theater power ballad was Another Day.
Good call. Had that came out in the later 80's instead of 1992, that likely would have been a bigger hit than Pull Me Under, but while it got some traction on MTV and was a moderate mainstream rock hit, it was the right song at the wrong time, from a mainstream standpoint.
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SFAM Intro (Regression/Overture/1928/Strange Deja Vu/Through My Words - this is a single piece of music)
No, it’s not. And if it were, why does it stop at Through My Words? That doesn’t make sense, since it’s basically a gapless transition into Fatal Tragedy, which you even have on your list.
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SFAM Intro (Regression/Overture/1928/Strange Deja Vu/Through My Words - this is a single piece of music)
No, it’s not. And if it were, why does it stop at Through My Words? That doesn’t make sense, since it’s basically a gapless transition into Fatal Tragedy, which you even have on your list.
This exactly. The reasoning makes NO sense.
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like I can understand:
-Regression / Overture 1928 together + Strange Deja Vu / Scene Three together
-Scene One / Scene Two / Scene Three together as well as all of them separate
but I can't understand it just stopping at Through My Words cause if there's anything it's linked to, it's Fatal Tragedy
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It would make a lot more sense if Through My Words actually contained the full piano section instead of abruptly stopping before "alone at night...". If it actually stopped where the piano part stopped, then the transition from SDV to TMW would be smoother than the one from TMW to FT.
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It would make even MORE sense if each of these pieces were a separate song. You know, like they are listed on the album.
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It would make even MORE sense if each of these pieces were a separate song. You know, like they are listed on the album.
I agree that they are separate songs, but a case against that could be made since Overture and Strange Deja Vu are marked as "Scene Two" and Through my Words and Fatal Tragedy as " Scene Three", meaning they do go together as a pair.
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It would make even MORE sense if each of these pieces were a separate song. You know, like they are listed on the album.
I agree that they are separate songs, but a case against that could be made since Overture and Strange Deja Vu are marked as "Scene Two" and Through my Words and Fatal Tragedy as " Scene Three", meaning they do go together as a pair.
One thing I do find pretty funny about the whole scene thing is that Scene Seven does definitely go together on the album, but live they seem to have a habit of playing The Dance of Eternity disconnected from One Last Time, whether it's in leaving it a solid minute or so after the former ends to play the latter as on Metropolis 2000, or forgoing the connection entirely with BtFW. It's weird because there's actually no musical gap between the two on the album, with those last three chords logically leading to the next one allowing to ring out in One Last Time.
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It would make even MORE sense if each of these pieces were a separate song. You know, like they are listed on the album.
I agree that they are separate songs, but a case against that could be made since Overture and Strange Deja Vu are marked as "Scene Two" and Through my Words and Fatal Tragedy as " Scene Three", meaning they do go together as a pair.
Yeah, they go together. It's presented as a two act play, with multiple scenes. But I see no reason to take it any further than that.
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It would make even MORE sense if each of these pieces were a separate song. You know, like they are listed on the album.
I didn't dispute this
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Is awesome to see so much love for Learning To Live, it's such an amazing song (and such a beautifully arranged ending).
My top ten (not in any particular order)
-Learning To Live
-Stream of Consciousness
-At Wits End
-A Change of Seasons
-In The Presence of the Enemies (Pt 1/2)
-Panic Attack
-Lines in the Sand
-Metropolis Pt.1
-The Glass Prison
- Home
Yes! Someone else gets it about Learning to live. I wish that ending would never end.
My top ten:-
Bridges in the Sky
Breaking all illusions
In the presence of enemies 1&2
Learning to live
In the name of god.
Streams of consciousness.
Outcry
Wither
Ministry of lost souls
On the backs of angels.
List subject to change due to so many I haven't heard.
All recommendations will be listened to :)
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1. The Spirit Carries On, narrowly ahead of
2. Octavarium
3. Pull Me Under
4. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (if I had to break it apart, Solitary Shell into About to Crash Reprise)
5. Fatal Tragedy
6. Wait for Sleep/Learning to Live (love the reprise of Wait in the middle of LTL)
7. Peruvian Skies (live version with Wish You Were Here and Wherever I May Roam)
8. As I Am
9. The Count of Tuscany
10. Lost Not Forgotten
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Updated list of all the songs that have received a mention (and far be it from me to tell DT what to put on the setlist for their upcoming European tour but...well, some of the songs on their recent DOT festival tour are notably absent...)
When Dream And Day Unite
A Fortune In Lies
The Killing Hand
Light Fuse And Get Away
The Ones Who Help To Set The Sun
Afterlife
Only A Matter of Time
Images and Words:
Pull Me Under
Another Day
Take The Time
Surrounded
Metropolis
Under A Glass Moon
Wait For Sleep
Learning To Live
Awake:
6:00
Voices
The Mirror
Lie
Lifting Shadows Off A Dream
Scarred
Space Dye Vest
Falling Into Infinity:
New Millennium
Peruvian Skies
Hollow Years
Hell's Kitchen
Lines In The Sand
Take Away My Pain
Anna Lee
Trial of Tears
Scenes From A Memory:
Strange Deja Vu
Fatal Tragedy
Beyond This Life
Home
The Dance of Eternity
The Spirit Carries On
Finally Free
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence:
The Glass Prison
Blind Faith
Misunderstood
The Great Debate
Disappear
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
About To Crash
Solitary Shell
Train of Thought:
Endless Sacrifice
Vacant
Stream of Consciousness
In The Name Of God
Octavarium:
The Root Of All Evil
Panic Attack
Sacrificed Sons
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos:
Constant Motion
In The Presence of Enemies
Black Clouds and Silver Linings:
The Count of Tuscany
A Dramatic Turn of Events:
On The Backs Of Angels
This Is The Life
Bridges In The Sky
Breaking All Illusions
Beneath The Surface
Dream Theater:
The Looking Glass
Enigma Machine
The Bigger Picture
Surrender To Reason
Illumination Theory
The Astonishing:
Three Days
A Life Left Behind
Chosen
Moment of Betrayal
Our New World
Distance Over Time:
Fall Into The Light
Room 137
S2N
At Wit's End
Pale Blue Dot
Non-album tracks:
A Change of Seasons
Another Won
Speak To Me
To Live Forever
Eve
Raise The Knife
Don't Look Past Me
Good job man.
I have a suggestion for a little project if you feel up to it and it might prove an interesting one at that - collate the data to see if you can find a (loosely) definitive consensus as to the top ten DT songs...Hmmmm.
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However there could be a hundred that fits in the top 10, mostly this would be mine...
Killing Hand
Mirror / Lie
Change of Seasons
Glass Prison
This Dying Soul
Shattered Fortress
Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
Bridges in the Sky / Outcry
Breaking all Illusions
Both Black Clouds & Silver Linings and A Dramatic Turn of Events are absolute pearls, overlooked by way too many prog-aholics.
Remarkable that the Shattered Fortress is never listed up in all the reactions before.
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Updated list of all the songs that have received a mention (and far be it from me to tell DT what to put on the setlist for their upcoming European tour but...well, some of the songs on their recent DOT festival tour are notably absent...)
When Dream And Day Unite
A Fortune In Lies
The Killing Hand
Light Fuse And Get Away
The Ones Who Help To Set The Sun
Afterlife
Only A Matter of Time
Images and Words:
Pull Me Under
Another Day
Take The Time
Surrounded
Metropolis
Under A Glass Moon
Wait For Sleep
Learning To Live
Awake:
6:00
Voices
The Mirror
Lie
Lifting Shadows Off A Dream
Scarred
Space Dye Vest
Falling Into Infinity:
New Millennium
Peruvian Skies
Hollow Years
Hell's Kitchen
Lines In The Sand
Take Away My Pain
Anna Lee
Trial of Tears
Scenes From A Memory:
Strange Deja Vu
Fatal Tragedy
Beyond This Life
Home
The Dance of Eternity
The Spirit Carries On
Finally Free
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence:
The Glass Prison
Blind Faith
Misunderstood
The Great Debate
Disappear
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
About To Crash
Solitary Shell
Train of Thought:
Endless Sacrifice
Vacant
Stream of Consciousness
In The Name Of God
Octavarium:
The Root Of All Evil
Panic Attack
Sacrificed Sons
Octavarium
Systematic Chaos:
Constant Motion
In The Presence of Enemies
Black Clouds and Silver Linings:
The Count of Tuscany
A Dramatic Turn of Events:
On The Backs Of Angels
This Is The Life
Bridges In The Sky
Breaking All Illusions
Beneath The Surface
Dream Theater:
The Looking Glass
Enigma Machine
The Bigger Picture
Surrender To Reason
Illumination Theory
The Astonishing:
Three Days
A Life Left Behind
Chosen
Moment of Betrayal
Our New World
Distance Over Time:
Fall Into The Light
Room 137
S2N
At Wit's End
Pale Blue Dot
Non-album tracks:
A Change of Seasons
Another Won
Speak To Me
To Live Forever
Eve
Raise The Knife
Don't Look Past Me
Good job man.
I have a suggestion for a little project if you feel up to it and it might prove an interesting one at that - collate the data to see if you can find a (loosely) definitive consensus as to the top ten DT songs...Hmmmm.
I would assume that Metropolis, Learning to Live, A Change of Seasons, Octavarium, and Breaking All Illusions are somewhere in there.
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Mmm,
1. Metropolis - Part. 1: The Miracle and The Sleeper
2. Octavarium
3. A mind beside itself (if it's not possible, Voices tied with next)
4. A change of seasons
5. The dance of eternity
6. Home (in the context of the album)
7. Six degrees of inner turbulence
8. At wit's end
9. Breaking all illusions
10. Hell's kitchen (with orchestra)
Some interesting points:
- 8/10 songs are from 1992-2005 era.
- At wit's end is a jewel in their recent work. If it had been written in the 90s, before most of their classic songs, it would be considered a top song for most of us.
- By far Hell's kitchen is the shortest (4:17) and the simplest (but it seems the soundtrack of an epic supernatural event). Think it's so personal, particularly.
- Learning to live is 11th (It was hard).
- 2/10 are instrumental songs.
- DT is not a band measured according to how good are some particular songs. It feels weird, for example, to consider only two SFAM tracks, or putting some songs without their context in the album.
- Considering the very high peaks that some songs have, the list could be extended a lot (perhaps towards a top 40). I tried to pick the songs that consistently maintain their epicness from start to finish. Honestly, any top 10 fails to faithfully represent the dimension of the band.
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When was Hell's Kitchen done with an orchestra?
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When was Hell's Kitchen done with an orchestra?
At that Sons of Apollo show :lol :P
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Top Ten, no particular order, and they're all so last century:
Pull Me Under
The Killing Hand
Under a Glass Moon
Learning to Live
The Mirror / Lie
Erotomania/Voices/TSM
Peruvian Skies
Lines In The Sand
Home
The Spirit Carries On
Not that they haven't done some great stuff this century (The Count of Tuscany, Dark Eternal Night) but it just doesn't compare IMO, probably because I don't have the same emotional connection to it.
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In chronological order- the best of the best
Pull Me Under
Learning to Live
6:00
Scarred
A Change of Seasons
Fatal Tragedy
Blind Faith
The Glass Prison
Octavarium
Breaking All Illusions
…damn what a lineup of songs!
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This is 100% set in stone and NEVER changes.................... :biggrin:
1. Lifting Shadows off a Dream
2. Octavarium
3. In the Name of God
4. Endless Sacrifice
5. Our New World
6. Best of Times
7. Count of Tuscany
8. Take the Time
9. Metropolis Pt. 1
10. Trial of Tears
Yup, that never changes. Ever.
Actually, the first one never changes. Lifting Shadows will always be #1.
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Top 10:
10. Surrounded
9. Take the Time
8. Octavarium
7. Another Day
6. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
5. Trial of Tears
4. Scarred
3. A Change of Seasons
2. Metropolis pt.1
1. Learning to Live
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So I asked in another thread if a thread like this already existed and apparently it doesn't; or at least, not recently.
The Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence thread got me thinking about my favourite DT songs, and this is what I have for my top 10:
1. Octavarium
2. Misunderstood
3. Disappear
4. A Change of Seasons.
5. Trial of Tears
6. Stream of Consciousness
7. In The Name of God
8. The Count of Tuscany
9. Home
10. Breaking All Illusions
Yours?
It's over 4 years since I made this thread so I decided to revisit the DT catalogue over the last month and see how my top ten has changed. This is the updated version:
1. Trial of Tears
2. Disappear
3. Breaking All Illusions
4. Misunderstood
5. Home
6. A Change of Seasons
7. Voices
8. Outcry
9. Blind Faith
10. Bridges in the Sky
My former #1 Octavarium has dropped out altogether (still love the song though), as have The Count of Tuscany and the 2 Train of Thought tracks. Regarding the latter, ToT used to be my favourite DT album but I find that I'm less and less drawn to the more 'metallic' side of the band these days (though with that said the finale of Stream of Consciousness is still my all-time favourite DT moment).
If you can seek out your original lists somewhere in this thread I'll be interested to see how your own top tens have changed, if at all.
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Not sure if this is the order:
1. Octavarium
2. Metropolis Pt. 1
3. A Change of Seasons
4. The Glass Prison
5. Endless Sack of Rice
6. The Count of Tuscany
7. On the Backs of Angels
8. Panic Attack
9. In the Name of God
10. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Honorable mention: Bridges in the Sky but without that long intro.
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So I asked in another thread if a thread like this already existed and apparently it doesn't; or at least, not recently.
The Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence thread got me thinking about my favourite DT songs, and this is what I have for my top 10:
1. Octavarium
2. Misunderstood
3. Disappear
4. A Change of Seasons.
5. Trial of Tears
6. Stream of Consciousness
7. In The Name of God
8. The Count of Tuscany
9. Home
10. Breaking All Illusions
Yours?
It's over 4 years since I made this thread so I decided to revisit the DT catalogue over the last month and see how my top ten has changed. This is the updated version:
1. Trial of Tears
2. Disappear
3. Breaking All Illusions
4. Misunderstood
5. Home
6. A Change of Seasons
7. Voices
8. Outcry
9. Blind Faith
10. Bridges in the Sky
My former #1 Octavarium has dropped out altogether (still love the song though), as have The Count of Tuscany and the 2 Train of Thought tracks. Regarding the latter, ToT used to be my favourite DT album but I find that I'm less and less drawn to the more 'metallic' side of the band these days (though with that said the finale of Stream of Consciousness is still my all-time favourite DT moment).
If you can seek out your original lists somewhere in this thread I'll be interested to see how your own top tens have changed, if at all.
I'm kind of surprised at The Count Of Tuscany; you've always spoken so highly of that song (that even got me to give it a sort of new appreciation; it certainly was a welcome addition to the set this past go-round because of that).
1. Cover My Eyes
2. This Is The Life
3. Strange Deja Vu
4. Surrounded
5. To Live Forever
6. I Walk Beside You
7. Misunderstood
8. Voices
9. Fatal Tragedy
10. Fall Into The Light
I didn't give a full listen-to to the catalogue, but the only real obvious change is replacing Raise The Knife with Fall Into The Light. I LOVE that song. Having said that, I think if I did a top 100 or so, the 10 to, say, 30 range would have changed A LOT. I know I've softened a bit - but just a bit - on WDADU, and there are tracks from the Mangini era - the recent title track, Transcending Time - that have "stuck" with me more than some of the previous Mangini tunes.
It's hard with a band like DT, though; I've been a fan so long, and there are so many memories tied to these songs... but having said that, of the monumentous things that have happened to me over the past year or two, the emotional impact wasn't really tied to DT. If anything, my recent past has given life to albums like Innocence and Danger (NMB) and Welschmerz (Fish), if that makes any sense.
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Not sure if this is the order:
1. Octavarium
2. Metropolis Pt. 1
3. A Change of Seasons
4. The Glass Prison
5. Endless Sack of Rice
6. The Count of Tuscany
7. On the Backs of Angels
8. Panic Attack
9. In the Name of God
10. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Honorable mention: Bridges in the Sky but without that long intro.
Your number 5 just missed my list. :) ;) :) ;)
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I’ve had the same go-to top ten list for probably ten years now. I should go through and see if it’s any different. I doubt any songs from the last ten years would break in, but those old ones may not hit me the same way they used to.
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My top 10 hasn't changed I don't think, some things further down probably have though. I have a playlist file with my favourite tracks in order and I noticed that it hasn't been modified since the exact day this thread was first posted :lol
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I'd like to say my top-10 is etched in stone, but my thoughts on this band's music are constantly evolving–a testament to the quality of their output!
My 'as of today' list below:
1: Octavarium – Even after hundreds of listens, this one never ceases to move me.
2: Breaking All Illusions – Easily my favorite moment of the Mangini era.
3: Trial of Tears – For years, this was my number 1.
4: Blind Faith – Fantastic...everything I love about the band in one song.
5: Disappear – Probably JLB's best lyric to date.
6: Bridges in the Sky – Man, what a chorus!
7: This is the Life – My favorite ballad from the band. Genius lyric from JP.
8: Voices – Probably my favorite JLB vocal to date.
9: I Walk Beside You – Just a perfect song.
10: Home – Man, what a fist-raising anthem!
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I'd like to say my top-10 is etched in stone, but my thoughts on this band's music are constantly evolving–a testament to the quality of their output!
My 'as of today' list below:
1: Octavarium – Even after hundreds of listens, this one never ceases to move me.
2: Breaking All Illusions – Easily my favorite moment of the Mangini era.
3: Trial of Tears – For years, this was my number 1.
4: Blind Faith – Fantastic...everything I love about the band in one song.
5: Disappear – Probably JLB's best lyric to date.
6: Bridges in the Sky – Man, what a chorus!
7: This is the Life – My favorite ballad from the band. Genius lyric from JP.
8: Voices – Probably my favorite JLB vocal to date.
9: I Walk Beside You – Just a perfect song.
10: Home – Man, what a fist-raising anthem!
Love to see the love for I Walk Beside You.
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I'd like to say my top-10 is etched in stone, but my thoughts on this band's music are constantly evolving–a testament to the quality of their output!
My 'as of today' list below:
1: Octavarium – Even after hundreds of listens, this one never ceases to move me.
2: Breaking All Illusions – Easily my favorite moment of the Mangini era.
3: Trial of Tears – For years, this was my number 1.
4: Blind Faith – Fantastic...everything I love about the band in one song.
5: Disappear – Probably JLB's best lyric to date.
6: Bridges in the Sky – Man, what a chorus!
7: This is the Life – My favorite ballad from the band. Genius lyric from JP.
8: Voices – Probably my favorite JLB vocal to date.
9: I Walk Beside You – Just a perfect song.
10: Home – Man, what a fist-raising anthem!
That’s a great list!
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I don't remember if I participated previously in this thread, but no new songs have been added to my list in the last three years.
Unfortunately, I didn't do Kev's Dream Theater countdown, but my top 10 would likely come from the following list (not in order necessarily):
- A Change of Seasons
- Metropolis Part 1
- Learning to Live
- Scarred
- Home
- Blind Faith
- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (although I don't regard it as a single song, and none of the individual pieces would crack the top 10)
- Stream of Consciousness
- Octavarium
- Breaking All Illusions
- Illumination Theory
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Here goes nothing;
1. Disappear
2. Metropolis Pt. 1: "The Miracle and the Sleeper"
3. A Change of Seasons
4. The Glass Prison
5. Octavarium
6. Home
7. Learning to Live
8. Take the Time
9. The Count of Tuscany
10. Space-Dye Vest
This was hard!
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1. Octavarium - It’s their masterpiece. I think it took me a while to realize that, but now I couldn’t put anything above it.
2. Breaking All Illusions - This is the best song of the Mangini-era. I’ve loved it since it came out and it has remained a favorite since. It’s like an improved Learning to Live. I know that’s sacrilege.
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - I typically don’t count this as one song, I think of it more as a suite. But there are at least three sections that could be in my top ten. Might as well count the whole thing. Overture and Goodnight Kiss being dragged out a little is the only think keeping it from number one.
4. Trial of Tears - A beautiful song. Sherinian and Myung’s shining moment. The groove laid down throughout it is unbeatable. It never gets old.
5. Blind Faith - I just love this one. It sounds like they took my favorite parts of LTE and turned them into a DT song. Jordan’s solos plus the guitar unison section are brilliant. Add Portnoy’s playing underneath and… well…it’s top 5 for a reason!
6. Lifting Shadows off a Dream - Another beautiful Myung moment. Possibly my favorite JLB performance. He’s known for his power style, but the way he sings on here is what I think puts him above his peers. The breathy style at the beginning up to the angelic rise. I could listen to him sing this song all day.
7. Surrounded - This is one I’ve just loved more and more over the years. My favorite Kevin Moore lyric and performance. James once again shines and it’s such an interesting and unique song for them.
8. Finally Free - A song they couldn’t do without Jordan. That haunting orchestral part he does at the beginning sounds a little dated now, but it’s so cool. These are my favorite Portnoy lyrics, I’m usually not big on his, but he did a great job. Seeing it live in 2019 put it in my top 10.
9. Ministry of Lost Souls - I know this is a “love it or hate it” song. I love it. It’s emotional, lyrically gut-wrenching and that unison line coming out of the instrumental section is my favorite of theirs. Again, seeing it live last year solidified it for me.
10.The Count of Tuscany - And once again, just like the last one, a song I always liked but seeing it live last year just raises its status. The lyrics that I found cringy when it came out, I now find kinda charming. I guess the finest wines really do improve with age!
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in no particular order
Disappear
A Change of Seasons
The Count of Tuscany
Space-Dye Vest
Blind Faith
Surrounded
Octavarium
Fatal Tragedy
Raise The Knife
Solitary Shell
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My original list
Metropolis Part I
The Glass Prison
Trial of Tears
A Nightmare to Remember
Honor Thy Father
The Root of All Evil
6:00
Beyond This Life
Only a Matter of Time
Bridges in the Sky
My revised list
Metropolis Part I
The Glass Prison
Trial of Tears
Octavarium
Honor Thy Father
Beyond This Life
The Count of Tuscany
The Root of All Evil
Only a Matter of Time
Bridges in the Sky
I'd forgotten what a great song Octavarium is.
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Not sure if I've posted a top 10 before, but mine goes like this:
1. Learning to live
2. A change of seasons
3. Take the time
4. Metropolis Pt.1
5. Space-dye vest
6. Lines in the sand
7. Voices
8. Surrounded
9. Lifting shadows off a dream
10. Trial of tears
My top Mangini-era track is Breaking all illusions, which makes my top 20. My top instrumental is Hell's kitchen (also top 20)
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However there could be a hundred that fits in the top 10, mostly this would be mine...
Killing Hand
Mirror / Lie
Change of Seasons
Glass Prison
This Dying Soul
Shattered Fortress
Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
Bridges in the Sky / Outcry
Breaking all Illusions
Both Black Clouds & Silver Linings and A Dramatic Turn of Events are absolute pearls, overlooked by way too many prog-aholics.
Remarkable that the Shattered Fortress is never listed up in all the reactions before.
Last years I've re-spinned all their vinyls multiple times. And although some will always be in my list, it has been changed.
Surrouned; LaBrie's best vocal performance of all...
A Change of Seasons
Octavarium; will probably always be my #1
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
These five are lifted up from their entire discography, as being close to perfect. Can't see any future-song will infiltrate this top-5.
Voices
The Glass Prison
The Ministry of Lost Souls
The Shattered Fortress
Bridges In the Sky
On any given day The Killing Hand, This Dying Soul, Outcry, Beneath the Surface or Awaken the Master might be interchangeable with the low-tier of this top 10. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence would surely be in this list, if considered as a single song.
The list is made up not as a ranking, but sortered since they've been brought out. For me impossible to rank them exactly.
Edit: And then, there's Scarred, with (between 5:12 and 6:25) probably Dream Theaters most emotional segment of all... how on earth can a man squeeze all this in a top-10.
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According to the lack of square smiling emoji, it looks like I never posted in this thread. Here are my current top 10 picks.
1. Home: My favourite DT song of all time, and top 3 of any song ever, beaten only by Queensryche's Screaming in Digital and Foo Fighter's Everlong. This track is daring and provocative, and acts as the literal and figurative climax of the emotion building all the way from Metropolis part 1. A masterpiece.
2. Voices: This track always brings me back to long nighttime walks home to my dorm in my university days listening to Awake on my Sony Discman. The lyrics were dark and suggestive, and the moment when the instruments and choral voices kick back in never fails to stand the hairs up on my arms.
3. Blind Faith: A powerhouse of a song, with some of their best lyrics and vocal melodies. It's mandatory to sing along to this song while I'm driving the car!
4. Trial of Tears: A suprisingly mature and emotional song for the band both lyrically and musically. Killer bass groove throughout.
5. Breaking All Illusions: The best Mangini-era track, and another incredible epic. It does everything right.
6. A Change of Seasons: What can you say about this song? It's wildly creative, ambitious in its themes of aging and growth, mixes in some clever religious metaphors, and sprinkles in the perfect amount of audio samples and sound effects. This blew my mind when I first heard it and it remains in my top 10.
7. Metropolis Part 1: This song has earned its place in the DT hall of fame for good reason. It's dense with different ideas and movements, and the subject matter of Remus and Romulus competing with each other and the three dances is so cool and different. Not only is this the birthplace of SFAM (in my opinion the best concept album ever made), it's also the song that made me realize DT had a "lead drummer" in Portnoy. So good.
8. Under a Glass Moon: Petrucci at his creative best. This track just hooks me from the instant it starts and doesn't let me go.
9. In the Name of God: I guess I really love the songs that explore the darkness inherent in religion. Top shelf lyrics in this track, and it's heavy and dark in just the right measures.
10. Space-Dye Vest: A perfectly moody meditation on the whirlwind of emotions that come from a failed relationship and the agony of loss. I love everything about this song.
Honorable Mention: Lost Not Forgotten. LNF has lyrics that really suggest the feeling of an unstoppable ancient empire, and it has always been the song which can pump me up for a workout. The exotic melodies engage my imagination and transport me somewhere else like few other songs do.