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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: WildRanger on April 10, 2019, 11:42:36 AM
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What's gonna win between these two very popular metal classics?
Although RTL is my favorite Metallica album, I'd easily take my favorite Maiden album over it.
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Powerslave
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I'd normally side with Maiden any day of the week, but in this particular matchup I give the edge to RTL because unlike Powerslave it has no filler.
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I think I like RTL more than most Metallica fans (it may be my favorite album of theirs) but man Powerslave is great and it's from my favorite band so I give it the slight edge. Rime of the Ancient Mariner is the best song on either album. Powerslave does have some filler though, that's what makes this a bit closer.
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I'd normally side with Maiden any day of the week, but in this particular matchup I give the edge to RTL because unlike Powerslave it has no filler.
And filler on Powerslave is?
To me Escape is filler on RTL.
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RTL, easily. Solid album from start to finish.
Rime of the Ancient Mariner is the best song on either album. Powerslave does have some filler though, that's what makes this a bit closer.
LOTS of filler. But the rest is so awesome. I mean, Two Minutes, Powerslave, and Rime are top notch. Aces High is okay with some very good moments. But the rest of the album is probably some of the weakest material they've ever done in Bruce's tenure with the band. VERY inconsistent album.
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This isn't even close.
I could live with "The Duellists" being called filler, but that second side (I first got Powerslave on vinyl) might be the best album side in Maiden history.
(I will note that the studio b-sides for that album are as good as what's on the record. Some c***'s recording this....)
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I really only consider Back to the Village as filler, maybe Flash of the Blade (although I really dig it) and losfer words is not the greatest instrumental so I understand if it gets lumped as filler. The dualist is way too good to be considered filler.
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This isn't even close.
I could live with "The Duellists" being called filler, but that second side (I first got Powerslave on vinyl) might be the best album side in Maiden history.
(I will note that the studio b-sides for that album are as good as what's on the record. Some c***'s recording this....)
Well, the "second side" is only three songs, two of which I mentioned as being pretty awesome. But if you honestly think the four songs I did not put on my list deserved to even make it onto the album and not end up on the cutting room floor, I don't know what to tell you, and I suspect MUCH more drug use during the '80s than you have let on. :lol They are just SO laughably bad.
I can't speak to the B-sides because I haven't heard them, other than Mission.
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Ride the Lightning
Very tough choice, but that album just crushes you from start to finish.
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Powerslave really is an incredible record, but Back in the Village, Losfer Words, and The Duellists? I've listened to Maiden almost my entire life and I still couldn't tell you a thing about those tracks. All of the rest? Top tier Maiden.
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Powerslave really is an incredible record, but Back in the Village, Losfer Words, and The Duellists? I've listened to Maiden almost my entire life and I still couldn't tell you a thing about those tracks. All of the rest? Top tier Maiden.
The duelist and the dueling guitars?! How am I the only one that loves the lyrics about the dueling swords combined with that awesome instrumental section with dueling guitars? Cheesy? Sure, but that's a fantastic song. I find it so hard to consider it filler.
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Powerslave really is an incredible record, but Back in the Village, Losfer Words, and The Duellists? I've listened to Maiden almost my entire life and I still couldn't tell you a thing about those tracks. All of the rest? Top tier Maiden.
I guess I can forgive you liking Flash of the Blade, even though for me, it falls in the same category as the other three you listed.
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RTL, no doubt.
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Powerslave really is an incredible record, but Back in the Village, Losfer Words, and The Duellists? I've listened to Maiden almost my entire life and I still couldn't tell you a thing about those tracks. All of the rest? Top tier Maiden.
I guess I can forgive you liking Flash of the Blade, even though for me, it falls in the same category as the other three you listed.
But... Flash of the Blade is good! :lol
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Powerslave really is an incredible record, but Back in the Village, Losfer Words, and The Duellists? I've listened to Maiden almost my entire life and I still couldn't tell you a thing about those tracks. All of the rest? Top tier Maiden.
I guess I can forgive you liking Flash of the Blade, even though for me, it falls in the same category as the other three you listed.
But... Flash of the Blade is good! :lol
I wouldn't worry about it. I think it's really just more of a regional issue, that's all. I know that in some parts of the country, they pronounce the phrase "laughably bad" in a way that sounds a lot like the word "good."
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I'd normally side with Maiden any day of the week, but in this particular matchup I give the edge to RTL because unlike Powerslave it has no filler.
I'm against changing the original meaning of the world "filler", aside from that.... what he said.
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Powerslave really is an incredible record, but Back in the Village, Losfer Words, and The Duellists? I've listened to Maiden almost my entire life and I still couldn't tell you a thing about those tracks. All of the rest? Top tier Maiden.
The duelist and the dueling guitars?! How am I the only one that loves the lyrics about the dueling swords combined with that awesome instrumental section with dueling guitars? Cheesy? Sure, but that's a fantastic song. I find it so hard to consider it filler.
Cram, I absolutely LOVE The Duelist, and after the title track, it's my 2nd favorite song on the album. That extended guitar solo section is awesome.
To me, RTL is easily the weakest of the first 4 Metallica albums. I kind of feel the same way about Powerslave in that it's my least favorite 80's Bruce Era album.
Both albums have aged pretty well. though. Tough choice.
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Hmmm....
RTL
Fight - 2.5
Ride - 2.5
Bell - 4
Fade - 4
Trapped - 3
Escape - 2
Creep - 5
Ktulu - 5
Average - 3.5
Powerslave
Aces - 5
Midnight - 4
Losfer - 3
Flash - 3
Duelists - 3.5
Village - 1
Powerslave - 4.5
Rime - 4.5
Average - 3.56
So there you have it...by the slimmest of margins.
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Lightning. Losfer Words drops Powerslave a bit, but they're both incredibly good albums.
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Powerslave really is an incredible record, but Back in the Village, Losfer Words, and The Duellists? I've listened to Maiden almost my entire life and I still couldn't tell you a thing about those tracks. All of the rest? Top tier Maiden.
I guess I can forgive you liking Flash of the Blade, even though for me, it falls in the same category as the other three you listed.
But... Flash of the Blade is good! :lol
I wouldn't worry about it. I think it's really just more of a regional issue, that's all. I know that in some parts of the country, they pronounce the phrase "laughably bad" in a way that sounds a lot like the word "good."
Smartass. :lol
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I'd normally side with Maiden any day of the week, but in this particular matchup I give the edge to RTL because unlike Powerslave it has no filler.
And filler on Powerslave is?
To me Escape is filler on RTL.
Back in the Village for sure. Worst song on either album. Escape fits the definition as well.
I might score The Duelists higher if Flash of the Blade didn't exist. Two sword fighting songs in a row kinda gets tedious, but The Duelists is definitely the more memorable song for me
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This isn't even close.
I could live with "The Duellists" being called filler, but that second side (I first got Powerslave on vinyl) might be the best album side in Maiden history.
(I will note that the studio b-sides for that album are as good as what's on the record. Some c***'s recording this....)
Well, the "second side" is only three songs, two of which I mentioned as being pretty awesome. But if you honestly think the four songs I did not put on my list deserved to even make it onto the album and not end up on the cutting room floor, I don't know what to tell you, and I suspect MUCH more drug use during the '80s than you have let on. :lol They are just SO laughably bad.
I can't speak to the B-sides because I haven't heard them, other than Mission.
This is really a general reply, since I'm CLEARLY in the minority, but I LOVE "Back In The Village". I love that opening riff/lick, and it's (lyrically) a sequel of sorts to The Prisoner. I think it's excellent.
(Oh, and I confused The Duelist with Flash Of The Blade. I like the former, I could do without the latter.)
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I'd normally side with Maiden any day of the week, but in this particular matchup I give the edge to RTL because unlike Powerslave it has no filler.
And filler on Powerslave is?
To me Escape is filler on RTL.
I missed this. Already detailed the Powerslave filler to me; Duellists, Village, Losfer.
For years, I put Fight Fire With Fire and The Call of Ktulu as 'filler' on RTL. It wasn't until my late teens that they finally clicked. I'm fond of Escape. (And Rhapsody's cover of Flash of the Blade! :loser:)
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@Stadler (and others): By all means, like it all you want. I'm just giving people crap. I went into a lot more detail MANY pages ago in the Maiden thread. But since becoming a fan, which was relatively VERY late, I've never understood the love for Powerslave as a full album because I clearly feel a VERY steep dropoff in quality between the four top songs and the remaining songs. I know that I'm actually in the minority on that one, but it is what it is.
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Ride the Lightning for me, easily, a perfect album (RTL-MOP-AJFA are totally perfect for me, I absolutely love every song).
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Powerslave really is an incredible record, but Back in the Village, Losfer Words, and The Duellists?
Losfer Words > The Call of Ktulu
I honestly think that Metallica instrumentals (Anesthesia, Ktulu, Orion and To Live Is to Die) are overrated and Iron Maiden instrumentals (Transylvania, Genghis Khan, Losfer Words) are underrated.
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Powerslave really is an incredible record, but Back in the Village, Losfer Words, and The Duellists?
Losfer Words > The Call of Ktulu
I honestly think that Metallica instrumentals (Anesthesia, Ktulu, Orion and To Live Is to Die) are overrated and Iron Maiden instrumentals (Transylvania, Genghis Khan, Losfer Words) are underrated.
Honestly not a huge fan of either band's instrumentals. Orion is maybe the best then Transylvania and the rest are mostly meh. Losfer Words and Ktulu is like a toss up.
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Powerslave all the way and back. Probably because I'm an avid Maiden fan and Metallica are just solid with some flashes of brilliance in my book.
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@Stadler (and others): By all means, like it all you want. I'm just giving people crap. I went into a lot more detail MANY pages ago in the Maiden thread. But since becoming a fan, which was relatively VERY late, I've never understood the love for Powerslave as a full album because I clearly feel a VERY steep dropoff in quality between the four top songs and the remaining songs. I know that I'm actually in the minority on that one, but it is what it is.
This is a general weakness about this album, and to me, it has every bit as much to do with what people consider the "top" songs as it does with the "bottom".
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RtL doesn't have Rime of the Ancient Mariner so, yeah, Powerslave it is.
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Powerslave. I don’t care what anyone thinks, it doesn’t have any weak song/filler. A 10/10 album. RTL is a 9.
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Powerslave really is an incredible record, but Back in the Village, Losfer Words, and The Duellists?
Losfer Words > The Call of Ktulu
HAHAHAHAHAHA No.
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Powerslave. I don’t care what anyone thinks, it doesn’t have any weak song/filler. A 10/10 album.
HAHAHAHAHAHA No.
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Only filler track is Back in the Village. Everything else is a gem. RtL is great, but let's not kid ourselves and pretend Escape isn't one of the drabbest Metallica cuts of its time.
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At first thought, Powerslave.
Considering the killer/filler ratios, Powerslave.
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Maiden
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Only filler track is Back in the Village. Everything else is a gem. RtL is great, but let's not kid ourselves and pretend Escape isn't one of the drabbest Metallica cuts of its time.
I've always loved "Escape", one of the first metallica songs I learned on guitar.
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@Stadler (and others): By all means, like it all you want. I'm just giving people crap. I went into a lot more detail MANY pages ago in the Maiden thread. But since becoming a fan, which was relatively VERY late, I've never understood the love for Powerslave as a full album because I clearly feel a VERY steep dropoff in quality between the four top songs and the remaining songs. I know that I'm actually in the minority on that one, but it is what it is.
I don't know that you are. While I don't have any basis for saying this, I wouldn't be surprised if 80-90% of all discussion about Powerslave focused on Aces, Midnight, Powerslave and Rime. I can't say that I have any specific recollection of playing Powerslave for the first time, and I don't know which songs I had heard before buying the album (just looking at Wikipedia, Midnight was released a month before the album, so that's probably the only song I had heard). Aces is a great album opener, and Midnight follows. Losfer was something of a novelty as the first instrumental of the Dickinson era, and it's a fine song. I think the album started to drag with Flash. Village gets side two off to a terrible start, and then it obviously finishes strong.
Losfer Words > The Call of Ktulu
Opinions and all, but dear lord, no.
I honestly think that Metallica instrumentals (Anesthesia, Ktulu, Orion and To Live Is to Die) are overrated and Iron Maiden instrumentals (Transylvania, Genghis Khan, Losfer Words) are underrated.
1. Ktulu - Epic on every level.
2. Transylvania - Parts of it are as immature as you'd expect from a new band, and other parts are very sophisticated.
3. Orion - Starts well enough, but the slow 3/4 section really drags until the solos.
4. Losfer - A fine effort.
5. Genghis - Ditto.
6. Anasthesia - This one's hard to rank because the start with just Cliff's bass is historically significant, but kinda boring after the novelty has worn off.
7. TLITD - Never been a fan.
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I really had no idea Village was so disliked. Always thought it was a cool song. At the same time I always liked Escape, as well. Anyhoo, Powerslave by a mile.
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@Stadler (and others): By all means, like it all you want. I'm just giving people crap. I went into a lot more detail MANY pages ago in the Maiden thread. But since becoming a fan, which was relatively VERY late, I've never understood the love for Powerslave as a full album because I clearly feel a VERY steep dropoff in quality between the four top songs and the remaining songs. I know that I'm actually in the minority on that one, but it is what it is.
I don't know that you are. While I don't have any basis for saying this, I wouldn't be surprised if 80-90% of all discussion about Powerslave focused on Aces, Midnight, Powerslave and Rime.
Fair enough. I wouldn't really know, outside this board. I only became a fan around the beginning of 2013. Yeah, yeah...I know. If you are bored and in need of some entertaining (to ME) reading, you can follow the early journey here: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=35660.0 But anyway, it seems like fans HERE are pretty high on at least some of those songs. I just think they are all pretty horrible and among Maiden's worst. Powerslave is such a strange album for me that way. Again, to me, it has some of their best work, and some of their worst. I always go back to those songs I like. But I never listen to the entire album anymore. :dunno:
I've never disliked Escape, or any other song on RTL. The album has its fair share of just "good" songs, and that's one of them. But I consider everything on it good to great.
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I'd normally side with Maiden any day of the week, but in this particular matchup I give the edge to RTL because unlike Powerslave it has no filler.
This pretty much sums up my opinion.
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I really had no idea Village was so disliked. Always thought it was a cool song. At the same time I always liked Escape, as well. Anyhoo, Powerslave by a mile.
What's funny about that is that is that when I got these albums back in the day, those were my two first favorite songs from each.
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Maiden for sure.
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I've never heard an Iron Maiden album that's as good as the best 4-5 albums by Metallica, so this was an easy vote.
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I've never heard an Iron Maiden album
You should.
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I've heard all of their so-called great albums, all of which ranged from solid to okay. IMO. They have some good songs, but I definitely view them as one of those bands not worthy of the hype.
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Just because they're not for you does not mean they are not worthy of the hype.
Swap Iron Maiden for you and input U2 for me, and we're having the same conversation, but at least I can recognize that U2 deserves the hype they get.
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RTL, easily. Solid album from start to finish.
Rime of the Ancient Mariner is the best song on either album. Powerslave does have some filler though, that's what makes this a bit closer.
LOTS of filler. But the rest is so awesome. I mean, Two Minutes, Powerslave, and Rime are top notch. Aces High is okay with some very good moments. But the rest of the album is probably some of the weakest material they've ever done in Bruce's tenure with the band. VERY inconsistent album.
Honest question, do you rank those songs below No Prayer, or FotD?
I understand why people may not like them considering the greatness of the songs surrounding them, but I still think that they're (for the most part) better than anything off of the last two albums of Bruce's initial run with the band.
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I mean, they're both probably in my top ten or fifteen albums of all time, and they are my favorite album from each band, so basically nuts to this poll.
But Ride the Lightning probably wins for me.
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RTL, easily. Solid album from start to finish.
Rime of the Ancient Mariner is the best song on either album. Powerslave does have some filler though, that's what makes this a bit closer.
LOTS of filler. But the rest is so awesome. I mean, Two Minutes, Powerslave, and Rime are top notch. Aces High is okay with some very good moments. But the rest of the album is probably some of the weakest material they've ever done in Bruce's tenure with the band. VERY inconsistent album.
Honest question, do you rank those songs below No Prayer, or FotD?
I understand why people may not like them considering the greatness of the songs surrounding them, but I still think that they're (for the most part) better than anything off of the last two albums of Bruce's initial run with the band.
Personally, I EASILY take FOTD over Powerslave. EASILY.
No Prayer comes in below Powerslave though.
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Just because they're not for you does not mean they are not worthy of the hype.
Swap Iron Maiden for you and input U2 for me, and we're having the same conversation, but at least I can recognize that U2 deserves the hype they get.
Okay, but that can be easily explained: U2 is great; Iron Maiden is not.
End of story. :tup :tup
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Just because they're not for you does not mean they are not worthy of the hype.
Swap Iron Maiden for you and input U2 for me, and we're having the same conversation, but at least I can recognize that U2 deserves the hype they get.
Okay, but that can be easily explained: U2 is great; Iron Maiden is not.
End of story. :tup :tup
OK. But you can't deny that Metallica guys are technically inferior musicians than guys in Maiden? Ulrich looks like an amateur compared to either Burr or McBrain and Hammett/Hetfield are much inferior guitar players than a Maiden guitar duo(Murray & Smith)? Serious argument could be made about bassists(who is better: Steve or Cliff). And vocally Dickinson puts Hetfield to shame. I think there is a general consesus that Iron Maiden is more talented than Metallica.
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Just because they're not for you does not mean they are not worthy of the hype.
Swap Iron Maiden for you and input U2 for me, and we're having the same conversation, but at least I can recognize that U2 deserves the hype they get.
Okay, but that can be easily explained: U2 is great; Iron Maiden is not.
End of story. :tup :tup
Kev, you know way too much about music to make such a ridiculous claim.
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Iron Maiden might be better musicians, and I love 'em to death, but they don't have one single song in their catalog that sounds like Where The Streets Have No Name, and say what you want about U2 or that song, that song has a vibe Iron Maiden can only dream of replicating. Who cares who's more talented.
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Why would Iron Maiden want to replicate the vibe of Where the Streets have No Name? they're different bands. U2 never had a 18 minutes piano-driven epic ballad, why would they even want to do that? Metallica has no catchy song like Livin' on a Prayer in their catalogue (even though one could argue in favor of Enter Sandman but that's quite heavy), why should they care?
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Iron Maiden might be better musicians, and I love 'em to death, but they don't have one single song in their catalog that sounds like Where The Streets Have No Name, and say what you want about U2 or that song, that song has a vibe Iron Maiden can only dream of replicating. Who cares who's more talented.
I was not comparing U2 with Maiden, but Metallica with Maiden. Maiden and U2 are totally dissimilar and incomparable.
U2 is one of the most polarizing bands of all time, Iron Maiden is far from that.
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I've heard all of their so-called great albums, all of which ranged from solid to okay. IMO. They have some good songs, but I definitely view them as one of those bands not worthy of the hype.
Not quite exactly, since I I think Metallica is better than "not worthy of the hype", but I'm on the opposite side of this. I don't think Metallica's albums hold a candle to Maiden's.
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Why would Iron Maiden want to replicate the vibe of Where the Streets have No Name? they're different bands. U2 never had a 18 minutes piano-driven epic ballad, why would they even want to do that? Metallica has no catchy song like Livin' on a Prayer in their catalogue (even though one could argue in favor of Enter Sandman but that's quite heavy), why should they care?
Respectfully, that's partially the point I'm making. They're two completely different bands, talking about who's more 'talented' is pointless, they both offer completely different vibes and soundscapes. (EDIT: And respectfully, you're missing the larger point, after reading your second comment - I will take Maiden absolutely any day of the year over U2, and yet they don't have one song in their catalog that scratches the itch for a song like WTSHNN. That's my point. They can be talented as all get out but that doesn't mean U2 doesn't offer something Maiden can't. :) )
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OK. But you can't deny that Metallica guys are technically inferior musicians than guys in Maiden? Ulrich looks like an amateur compared to either Burr or McBrain and Hammett/Hetfield are much inferior guitar players than a Maiden guitar duo(Murray & Smith)? Serious argument could be made about bassists(who is better: Steve or Cliff). And vocally Dickinson puts Hetfield to shame. I think there is a general consesus that Iron Maiden is more talented than Metallica.
Let me preface this by saying that I'm only taking into account Metallica's output through the Black Album and Maiden's output through Fear of the Dark. While I have a couple of the "reunion era" Maiden albums, I haven't listened to them much.
You stuck a question mark at the end of the highlighted sentence, but it isn't phrased as a question. I certainly can deny that and will do so.
In the late 80s and early 90s, Kirk Hammett was one of the most highly acclaimed guitar players in the world. He turned up in a number of articles/discussions alongside guys like Satriani and Vai. He was far more acclaimed than Murray and/or Smith.
Similarly, Hetfield has always been regarded as one of the best rhythm guitar players in metal. There's no analog to Hetfield in Metallica, but as mentioned above, Murray and Smith never got much run as technical players, so it's certainly the case that Hetfield was a more highly regarded rhythm player than Murray and/or Smith.
In terms of bass, Jason Newsted was never held in much regard. In part, that's because the bass was inaudible on AJFA, but there was nothing exceptional about his playing on either AJFA or the Black Album. Steve Harris, on the other hand, is one of the most highly regarded bass players in all of metal. The wildcard here is Cliff Burton. The bass on KEA, RTL and MOP is more audible than on AJFA or TBA, but it's still tough to hear on a lot of songs. It also generally doubles the rhythm guitar. However, Cliff is held in fairly high regard as a musician. In part, I think this is akin to Randy Rhoads and isn't entirely deserved -- especially because the discography is so sparse. At the end of the day, I think it would be hard not give Harris the win here.
That brings us to drums. I, for one, have never understood the whole "Lars is crap" mindset. Back in the day, I always thought he was pretty good. In retrospect, I'd say he's good but not great -- which is pretty much how I've always thought of Nicko McBrain. He's good, but he's nothing special and certainly not any sort of technical wizard. I'd call this one a tie (and I'm not factoring in Clive Burr as having added anything in terms of technical skill beyond what Nicko does).
Finally, vocals. I think Bruce is widely regarded as one of the best singers in the history of metal. James not so much, but his repertoire is far more diverse than Bruce's, and, as a "thrash" singer, he was excellent.
Overall, in terms of technical skill, I would say it's extremely close (at least for the era when both bands were most successful).
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^Absolutely that. Any claim that Metallica are technically inferior musicians than Maiden is just laughable and cannot be taken seriously.
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Overall, in terms of technical skill, I would say it's extremely close (at least for the era when both bands were most successful).
Full agreement. And just for kicks - since I can't fathom why technical proficiency should determine which band/album is better anyways - I can remember teenage me around 1990 thinking Metallica was (with Megadeth) the most "technical" heavy metal act on the market (and still enjoying Maiden a little bit more). Thinking about it, I could sloppily play the whole Piece of Mind, but fock me if I could play through the whole Justice.
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Yea, this discussion got real silly
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Then don't take me seriously. IM is better technically. In high school, no one talked about Kirk Hammett being one of the most highly acclaimed guitar players in the world. Cliff though was all the buzz. Nicko puts Lars to shame.
That being said, the impact and popularity was much larger in the US for Metallica. No doubt. I remember the anticipation for the "One" video.
Both bands should have the tip of the hat for the longevity and their popularity to this day. Not many band can have that career and say that.
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OK. But you can't deny that Metallica guys are technically inferior musicians than guys in Maiden? Ulrich looks like an amateur compared to either Burr or McBrain and Hammett/Hetfield are much inferior guitar players than a Maiden guitar duo(Murray & Smith)? Serious argument could be made about bassists(who is better: Steve or Cliff). And vocally Dickinson puts Hetfield to shame. I think there is a general consesus that Iron Maiden is more talented than Metallica.
Let me preface this by saying that I'm only taking into account Metallica's output through the Black Album and Maiden's output through Fear of the Dark. While I have a couple of the "reunion era" Maiden albums, I haven't listened to them much.
You stuck a question mark at the end of the highlighted sentence, but it isn't phrased as a question. I certainly can deny that and will do so.
In the late 80s and early 90s, Kirk Hammett was one of the most highly acclaimed guitar players in the world. He turned up in a number of articles/discussions alongside guys like Satriani and Vai. He was far more acclaimed than Murray and/or Smith.
Similarly, Hetfield has always been regarded as one of the best rhythm guitar players in metal. There's no analog to Hetfield in Metallica, but as mentioned above, Murray and Smith never got much run as technical players, so it's certainly the case that Hetfield was a more highly regarded rhythm player than Murray and/or Smith.
In terms of bass, Jason Newsted was never held in much regard. In part, that's because the bass was inaudible on AJFA, but there was nothing exceptional about his playing on either AJFA or the Black Album. Steve Harris, on the other hand, is one of the most highly regarded bass players in all of metal. The wildcard here is Cliff Burton. The bass on KEA, RTL and MOP is more audible than on AJFA or TBA, but it's still tough to hear on a lot of songs. It also generally doubles the rhythm guitar. However, Cliff is held in fairly high regard as a musician. In part, I think this is akin to Randy Rhoads and isn't entirely deserved -- especially because the discography is so sparse. At the end of the day, I think it would be hard not give Harris the win here.
That brings us to drums. I, for one, have never understood the whole "Lars is crap" mindset. Back in the day, I always thought he was pretty good. In retrospect, I'd say he's good but not great -- which is pretty much how I've always thought of Nicko McBrain. He's good, but he's nothing special and certainly not any sort of technical wizard. I'd call this one a tie (and I'm not factoring in Clive Burr as having added anything in terms of technical skill beyond what Nicko does).
Finally, vocals. I think Bruce is widely regarded as one of the best singers in the history of metal. James not so much, but his repertoire is far more diverse than Bruce's, and, as a "thrash" singer, he was excellent.
Overall, in terms of technical skill, I would say it's extremely close (at least for the era when both bands were most successful).
Well, I don't disagree with much of this, but what I do disagree with is vehement. To the point of apoplexy. :)
- I think you're overselling Hammett. He was often cited as having STUDIED with Satch, but in my view - as someone who religiously read guitar magazines for the tablature - that was more to tell you who SATCH was, than Hammett.
- You are, in my opinion, SEVERELY underselling Nicko McBrain. He's not the star of the show; he's not even the second-billed on the marquee, but he is more than "nothing special". (Though I agree that the "Lars is crap" is bullshit).
- I'm a Hetfield fanboy, but there is no standard by which Hetfield's vocal repertoire is "more diverse" than Dickinson's. Have you heard the clip of Dickinson in the chapel with Ian Anderson singing "Jerusalem"? Bruce isn't just a great "metal singer", he's a great singer, period, and while I love Hetfield, and think he's probably the only man that could do what he does in the band that is Metallica, I think even he would defer to Bruce.
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In high school, no one talked about Kirk Hammett being one of the most highly acclaimed guitar players in the world. Cliff though was all the buzz.
I don't know where you went to high school, but your profile tells me you're the same age I am (class of 1985). Metallica had released only KEA and RTL by the time I graduated, and very few people at my school knew who Metallica was. The accolades lumped on Kirk came during the second half of the decade, and Cliff got almost no run until after he died.
- I'm a Hetfield fanboy, but there is no standard by which Hetfield's vocal repertoire is "more diverse" than Dickinson's. Have you heard the clip of Dickinson in the chapel with Ian Anderson singing "Jerusalem"? Bruce isn't just a great "metal singer", he's a great singer, period, and while I love Hetfield, and think he's probably the only man that could do what he does in the band that is Metallica, I think even he would defer to Bruce.
I'm only taking into account their output with their bands. Bruce is unquestionably a more classically proper singer, but I don't think that's either here or there. Honestly, they're too different to compare.
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MOP was all the talk at our HS. Most of the heads (Remember that term?) loved Cliff's playing. It was like a titlewave at school with everyone wearing their concert tees.
I played it off as they were just ok because i thought I would be the music rebel. Oh youth.
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Most of the heads (Remember that term?)
No.
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Exact same age, and at the time in my high school, Metallica and REM were the exact same band but in different cliques. We called them "hoods", not "heads", but they were the Metallica fans (and the nerds were the REM fans). They weren't idolized, they weren't mocked, they were just somewhere in between. But on Monday, when everyone talked about the concerts they went to, it was the Maidens, the Ozzys, the Van Halens, the Rushs of the world that got all the play.
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Ride the Lightning
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Most of the heads (Remember that term?)
No.
Heads were stoners.
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MOP was all the talk at our HS. Most of the heads (Remember that term?) loved Cliff's playing. It was like a titlewave at school with everyone wearing their concert tees.
I played it off as they were just ok because i thought I would be the music rebel. Oh youth.
"Heads" was apparently not a term used out here.
You and I clearly went to very different schools, and it sounds like I would have enjoyed yours (and Stadler's, apparently) a LOT more than I enjoyed mine. I went to a private Catholic school. Out of a graduating class of around 550, I would be hard pressed to name more than 20 kids who were into metal or anything heavier than Foreigner. A handful of us wore concert shirts under the polo or button-down shirts we were required to wear, and we occasionally got hassled about that by one of the deans. I also graduated nine months before MOP was released, so....
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My own perspective: I was in high school from 2005-09. Only ever saw a few Maiden shirts and it was amongst my few friends. But I saw Metallica shirts on tons of other people. And even more Slipknot. Maiden unfortunately was not all the rage here although they were well known. Somehow Metallica was just ubiquitous, Maiden was not. I think it's the harmonized guitars and higher vocals with Maiden. The gritty grungy riffs and lower vox of Metallica seem to appeal to these country kids more...
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I definitely agree with there being a noticeable difference in quality between the four top and four "bottom" songs on Powerslave and "Back in the Village" might very well be Maiden's weakest '80s song. Then again, Ride the Lightning has "Escape".
I guess an argument could be made for RTL being more consistent. I'm more likely to put on Powerslave.
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MOP was all the talk at our HS. Most of the heads (Remember that term?) loved Cliff's playing. It was like a titlewave at school with everyone wearing their concert tees.
I played it off as they were just ok because i thought I would be the music rebel. Oh youth.
"Heads" was apparently not a term used out here.
You and I clearly went to very different schools, and it sounds like I would have enjoyed yours (and Stadler's, apparently) a LOT more than I enjoyed mine. I went to a private Catholic school. Out of a graduating class of around 550, I would be hard pressed to name more than 20 kids who were into metal or anything heavier than Foreigner. A handful of us wore concert shirts under the polo or button-down shirts we were required to wear, and we occasionally got hassled about that by one of the deans. I also graduated nine months before MOP was released, so....
Catholic school boy until High school. I got excepted to a catholic high school but wanted to be with my friends in my hometown.
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RTL, easily. Solid album from start to finish.
Rime of the Ancient Mariner is the best song on either album. Powerslave does have some filler though, that's what makes this a bit closer.
LOTS of filler. But the rest is so awesome. I mean, Two Minutes, Powerslave, and Rime are top notch. Aces High is okay with some very good moments. But the rest of the album is probably some of the weakest material they've ever done in Bruce's tenure with the band. VERY inconsistent album.
Honest question, do you rank those songs below No Prayer, or FotD?
I understand why people may not like them considering the greatness of the songs surrounding them, but I still think that they're (for the most part) better than anything off of the last two albums of Bruce's initial run with the band.
Personally, I EASILY take FOTD over Powerslave. EASILY.
No Prayer comes in below Powerslave though.
I remember you talking about your issues with Powerslave in the IM discography thread. When I try to look at it from your point of view I have to admit that you make some very valid points. But when I hear FTOD it sounds like a band that is desperately trying to regain it's footing. When I hear PS it sounds like a band that is in it's prime. That very well might be my bias coloring my opinion, though. PS is a very important album to me.
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Both classic albums but RTL gets my vote. 5 of its tracks (RTL, Bell, Fade, Creeping Death and Ktulu) are among my favourite metal songs. Powerslave is great (and has one of my favourite album covers of any band), but I don't have the same 'history' with it as I do the early Metallica records.
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I really only consider Back to the Village as filler...
WHAT? Are you listening to the same Back in the Village that I am? The one on the Powerslave album? The one track that is definitely NOT filler? I mean, I know we all listen to music differently, but sheesh...
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I really only consider Back to the Village as filler...
WHAT? Are you listening to the same Back in the Village that I am? The one on the Powerslave album? The one track that is definitely NOT filler? I mean, I know we all listen to music differently, but sheesh...
Yes that song
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Tough choice but I'm leaning towards RTL. For me Metallica in their prime (RTL-MoP-AJFA) is better than anything Maiden has done, but Maiden has kept a more consistent high bar through their career.
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I definitely agree with there being a noticeable difference in quality between the four top and four "bottom" songs on Powerslave and "Back in the Village" might very well be Maiden's weakest '80s song. Then again, Ride the Lightning has "Escape".
I guess an argument could be made for RTL being more consistent. I'm more likely to put on Powerslave.
As I was reading that, my cellphone rang, and it was "Gangland", with "The Lonliness Of The Long Distance Runner" on speaker, and they were overjoyed to see your post. They wanted me to express their sincere thanks for not mentioning them instead. :)
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RTL, easily. Solid album from start to finish.
Rime of the Ancient Mariner is the best song on either album. Powerslave does have some filler though, that's what makes this a bit closer.
LOTS of filler. But the rest is so awesome. I mean, Two Minutes, Powerslave, and Rime are top notch. Aces High is okay with some very good moments. But the rest of the album is probably some of the weakest material they've ever done in Bruce's tenure with the band. VERY inconsistent album.
Honest question, do you rank those songs below No Prayer, or FotD?
I understand why people may not like them considering the greatness of the songs surrounding them, but I still think that they're (for the most part) better than anything off of the last two albums of Bruce's initial run with the band.
Personally, I EASILY take FOTD over Powerslave. EASILY.
No Prayer comes in below Powerslave though.
I remember you talking about your issues with Powerslave in the IM discography thread. When I try to look at it from your point of view I have to admit that you make some very valid points. But when I hear FTOD it sounds like a band that is desperately trying to regain it's footing. When I hear PS it sounds like a band that is in it's prime. That very well might be my bias coloring my opinion, though. PS is a very important album to me.
And thus the screen name! :)
But this for me, too. I got into Maiden in real time with "Number..." (saw them as an opening act for Priest), then saw them on their first headlining tour ("Piece...") with Fastway and Coney Hatch, but Powerslave was the record that for me put them into the big leagues. The album cover (embossed, sort of!), the epic 57 minute song ala Genesis (who, at the time, Harris had taken to complementing as an early influence), the epic ALBUM (it didn't fit on half a 90-min tape as every Maiden album did before, and it wasn't even close; I think the record is like 25 minutes a side). The b-sides stepped up (I think Rainbow's Gold and King Of Twilight are as good as anything on the record itself), the tour was epic (which spawned, wait for it, DTF, WAIT FOR IT... Live After Death)... and as some of you have said, at the time, Metallica was in comparison this street kid from somewhere out west with the funny looking drummer... it was no contest AT THE TIME.
And old habits die hard. Not saying anyone else is wrong, just trying to articulate that sometimes it goes beyond just the grooves in the record.
EDIT: See the Portnoy thread regarding Myung (and the idea they live in PA and hate each other), the conversation in "Mission From 'arry" was recorded after a show in Allentown, PA. Must be something in the water there, drummers and bassists...
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...at the time, Metallica was in comparison this street kid from somewhere out west with the funny looking drummer... it was no contest AT THE TIME.
I think it depended on where you were. At my school, BOTH were pretty obscure. But you know of fans of both. We definitely had out share of Maiden fans. But we also had plenty of kids going around with "Ride the Lightning" and "Metal Up Your Ass" t-shirts during this timeframe who would rabidly tell anyone within earshot how awesome Metallica were and how they were going to be huge some day. I could be wrong, but if memory serves, it seemed like the Metallica fans outnumbered the Maiden fans AT THE TIME. Granted, that may have also been a product of us being about 30 miles from San Francisco and Berkeley, where thrash had it roots. But my point is simply that I can't say that Maiden were far and away the slam dunk winners everywhere at that point in time.
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I definitely agree with there being a noticeable difference in quality between the four top and four "bottom" songs on Powerslave and "Back in the Village" might very well be Maiden's weakest '80s song. Then again, Ride the Lightning has "Escape".
I guess an argument could be made for RTL being more consistent. I'm more likely to put on Powerslave.
As I was reading that, my cellphone rang, and it was "Gangland", with "The Lonliness Of The Long Distance Runner" on speaker, and they were overjoyed to see your post. They wanted me to express their sincere thanks for not mentioning them instead. :)
Back in the Village makes Gangland seem like Bohemian Rhapsody.
I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village I'm back in the village again in the village...AGAIN.
Please tell us again where you are, Bruce?
...at the time, Metallica was in comparison this street kid from somewhere out west with the funny looking drummer... it was no contest AT THE TIME.
I think it depended on where you were. At my school, BOTH were pretty obscure. But you know of fans of both. We definitely had out share of Maiden fans. But we also had plenty of kids going around with "Ride the Lightning" and "Metal Up Your Ass" t-shirts during this timeframe who would rabidly tell anyone within earshot how awesome Metallica were and how they were going to be huge some day. I could be wrong, but if memory serves, it seemed like the Metallica fans outnumbered the Maiden fans AT THE TIME. Granted, that may have also been a product of us being about 30 miles from San Francisco and Berkeley, where thrash had it roots. But my point is simply that I can't say that Maiden were far and away the slam dunk winners everywhere at that point in time.
Definitely. I don't think too many folks outside of NoCal knew who Metallica were until well after Ride the Lightning came out. When we were seniors ('84-'85), my friend bought RTL on one of our "buy something we've never heard of" trips to the music store. The band's name was a selling point, as was the album cover. We listened to it going to and from school, although I didn't like Hetfield's voice at first. Fade to Black might have gotten some airplay, but Metallica didn't really take off in SoCal until KNAC started playing metal in January 1986. Maiden was huge coming off the Piece of Mind tour, and the release of Powerslave in 1984 cemented that.
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You're killing me, PG! :)
I don't put that Maiden/Metallica thing out there to say I'm right. I'm constantly fascinated by the regionality of music, even here in the States. Sammy Hagar talked about that; he could headline arenas in some regions of the country, and couldn't get an opening act slot in others. I remember back in the day, bands like Rainbow, Sabbath, Ozzy would all talk about "San Antonio" and how awesome it was (well, it is!). Sabbath and Rainbow both did live albums there. They must have been RABID for their metal at that point.
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I'm constantly fascinated by the regionality of music, even here in the States. Sammy Hagar talked about that; he could headline arenas in some regions of the country, and couldn't get an opening act slot in others. I remember back in the day, bands like Rainbow, Sabbath, Ozzy would all talk about "San Antonio" and how awesome it was (well, it is!). Sabbath and Rainbow both did live albums there. They must have been RABID for their metal at that point.
Add Triumph to that list (and they were pretty damn huge the first half of the 80s). They always talked about Texas -- and SAT in particular -- as a hotbed for them.
But yeah...the Twisted Sister/Motley Crue dichotomy that we've posted about more than once is probably the best illustration of the regional thing. Unfortunately for me, I tended not to like LA metal bands much.
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Regions definitely play a role.
And I can say from my grade school experience in the 90s, there were lots more Metallica fans than IM fans. Not sure why it's a surprise, Metallica is a bigger band than IM, one of very few that can say that in metal and its because Metallica transcends beyond just the metal fans.
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After Seventh Son the fanbase dropped off here in America. Maybe someone from Europe can chime in but I thought they were still strong there. This is when Metallica was becoming huge. Now IM had a resurgence here in the US with the big lineup. At least that's what I remember.
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Yea I get that, I think it just seems that once Metallica got big, they were always bigger than IM after that.
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Yea I get that, I think it just seems that once Metallica got big, they were always bigger than IM after that.
Defiantly.
Any band that can fill football stadiums are more popular.
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I was not comparing U2 with Maiden, but Metallica with Maiden. Maiden and U2 are totally dissimilar and incomparable.
U2 is one of the most polarizing bands of all time, Iron Maiden is far from that.
How is U2 polarizing? How is Iron Maiden not? I don't understand.
Iron Maiden ... don't have one single song in their catalog that sounds like Where The Streets Have No Name, and say what you want about U2 or that song, that song has a vibe Iron Maiden can only dream of replicating.
U2 doesn't have a single song in their catalog that sounds like The Number Of the Beast.
Can U2 replicate vibe of The Talisman, which the hairs on my neck stand up for.
I only introduced U2 into the conversation because of Kev's dissing Iron Maiden. He feels the same way about them as I do about Iron Maiden. Even though I am not into U2, I feel like the two bands are on very similar planes.
After Seventh Son the fanbase dropped off here in America. Maybe someone from Europe can chime in but I thought they were still strong there. This is when Metallica was becoming huge. Now IM had a resurgence here in the US with the big lineup. At least that's what I remember.
You're right about the timing. Metallica really broke in 1988-89. I think the keyboards really started the questioning of Iron Maiden and where they were headed.
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Iron Maiden ... don't have one single song in their catalog that sounds like Where The Streets Have No Name, and say what you want about U2 or that song, that song has a vibe Iron Maiden can only dream of replicating.
U2 doesn't have a single song in their catalog that sounds like The Number Of the Beast.
Can U2 replicate vibe of The Talisman, which the hairs on my neck stand up for.
Brother, that's my whole point. :) Both bands do their own thing and they do it well. Doesn't accomplish anything to call some of them inferior to one another, as I was responding to, because they aim to do different things with their music.
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After Seventh Son the fanbase dropped off here in America. Maybe someone from Europe can chime in but I thought they were still strong there.
Gladly. Right after Seventh Son they were absolutely peaking here. Metallica got them with Justice and eventually overtook them with the Black Album, but they kept going strong and I'd like to add that the Fear of the Dark tour was a huge success, spawning a live album (containing a version of Heaven Can Wait recorded at my very first Maiden show) and another very successful tour.
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Kev, you know way too much about music to make such a ridiculous claim.
:biggrin: :biggrin:
I only introduced U2 into the conversation because of Kev's dissing Iron Maiden. He feels the same way about them as I do about Iron Maiden. Even though I am not into U2, I feel like the two bands are on very similar planes.
I will admit that some of my "dissing" of Maiden was slightly tongue in cheek, although I stand by my comment that Metallica's best 4-5 albums are better than any by Maiden.
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That's a fair opinion to have. I would never try and argue that. Metallica's first 4 or 5 albums are legendary.
But I still find that the two albums in this poll are the two weakest of each band's respective era.
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Powerslave.
Both are monster albums that are part of my core metal DNA and I've quoted both as my favourites of my favourite bands at various points and played them both to death in the late 80s. But Metallica get played rarely by me now. Love em when I do but it is very unusual. Maiden still fresh.
Two Minutes is the only track from Powerslave I could happily never hear again. I've never thought it had any filler, though. I just heard TMTM out. Village, Flash, Duellists and Losfer are fantastic to these ears. This is the album of Maiden, the greatest metal band of all time, at the top of their game.
RTL is great. The sound! The guitars sound like someone sawing wood crossed with a alsatian barking. It's incredible. And the intro from FFWF into the main riff is just one of those moments. But generally I find Metallica lacking a certain something these days. They've not aged for me as well as Slayer or Anthrax or even Exodus. Not sure exactly why. In my prime love for them i felt that everything was so perfectly placed together. It might be that quality that i find slightly "plodding" for want of a better word these days. It's lacking energy slightly for me.
So, yeah.
EDIT: Escape is great and > Trapped Under Ice
EDIT2: FWTBT is one of the greatest and heaviest things ever recorded.
EDIT3: This really is an excellent poll and has had me scratching my head since i woke today!
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"Back in the Village" might very well be Maiden's weakest '80s song.
As I was reading that, my cellphone rang, and it was "Gangland", with "The Lonliness Of The Long Distance Runner" on speaker, and they were overjoyed to see your post. They wanted me to express their sincere thanks for not mentioning them instead. :)
Feel free to call them back to tell them they're welcome. :lol
I don't have any problems with "...Long Distance Runner" - not the strongest track on that record, but I like it just fine. "Back in the Village" on the other hand has that annoying chorus. One repeated, drawn-out line. The same idea later used on "Heaven Can Wait", to similar effect. "Heaven Can Wa-aa-ait, Heaven Can Wa-aa-ait, Heaven Can Wa-aa-ait...
"Gangland" is the weakest song on its album, sure, but Clive keeps it rolling along nicely. Oh, and the album in question just so happens to be The Number of the Beast! :metal Weakest song on NOTB doesn't mean much.
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It's interesting how is a one-hit album AJFA (One) such a huge seller in the US. It has sold over 8 million copies, it has outsold both previous Metallica records Master and Ride (both 6 Platinum) and it has outsold entire 80's Iron Maiden and Judas Priest discography. It's the second best-selling metal album in America, behind the Black album. It seems there is a very big number of American non-metal fans who bought that album.
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I would go so far as to say that after Powerslave their following started to drop off in America.
In America, in the 80s, it was a mortal sin for any metal band to use synthesizers. When Judas Priest released Turbo and Iron Maiden released Somewhere in Time both in 86, there was a great many metal fans who felt completely ripped off. It was this sense of “disenchantment” that directly led to the explosion of popularity with “the big 4” of thrash.
And it wasn’t just Judas Priest and Iron Maiden. Ozzy Osbourne and Mötley Crüe had also just released synth heavy “glam” style albums with The Ultimate Sin and Theater of Pain.
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I would go so far as to say that after Powerslave their following started to drop off in America.
In America, in the 80s, it was a mortal sin for any metal band to use synthesizers. When Judas Priest released Turbo and Iron Maiden released Somewhere in Time both in 86, there was a great many metal fans who felt completely ripped off. It was this sense of “disenchantment” that directly led to the explosion of popularity with “the big 4” of thrash.
And it wasn’t just Judas Priest and Iron Maiden. Ozzy Osbourne and Mötley Crüe had also just released synth heavy “glam” style albums with The Ultimate Sin and Theater of Pain.
No offense to anyone, but that just shows how close-minded metal fans were back in the 80's.
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I would go so far as to say that after Powerslave their following started to drop off in America.
In America, in the 80s, it was a mortal sin for any metal band to use synthesizers. When Judas Priest released Turbo and Iron Maiden released Somewhere in Time both in 86, there was a great many metal fans who felt completely ripped off. It was this sense of “disenchantment” that directly led to the explosion of popularity with “the big 4” of thrash.
And it wasn’t just Judas Priest and Iron Maiden. Ozzy Osbourne and Mötley Crüe had also just released synth heavy “glam” style albums with The Ultimate Sin and Theater of Pain.
No offense to anyone, but that just shows how close-minded metal fans were back in the 80's.
A lot of them still are! :lol
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A lot of them still are! :lol
I don't doubt it. I would argue that anyone who listens exclusively, or even almost exclusively, to the same genre is someone whose opinion of music should not be not taken seriously.
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I agree 100% :)
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I would go so far as to say that after Powerslave their following started to drop off in America.
In America, in the 80s, it was a mortal sin for any metal band to use synthesizers. When Judas Priest released Turbo and Iron Maiden released Somewhere in Time both in 86, there was a great many metal fans who felt completely ripped off. It was this sense of “disenchantment” that directly led to the explosion of popularity with “the big 4” of thrash.
And it wasn’t just Judas Priest and Iron Maiden. Ozzy Osbourne and Mötley Crüe had also just released synth heavy “glam” style albums with The Ultimate Sin and Theater of Pain.
No offense to anyone, but that just shows how close-minded metal fans were back in the 80's.
A lot of them still are! :lol
Agreed. I mean, I was 16 at the time, and I will confess that, at that age, I was full of piss and vinegar and wanted nothing to do with bands that would "wuss out" like that. Thrash was exactly what I needed to fill the void. From about 1985 on, I almost exclusively listened to bands that were on Metal Blade, Combat, Megaforce, or Shrapnel records. But come on...I was 16. What really bothers me is that Iron Maiden comes to the US today, there are still 40 and 50 year old guys that want nothing to do with anything past Powerslave. I don't blame Bruce for getting slightly irritated at US fans who only want to hear the first 4 or 5 albums and nothing else.
The only issue that I have with the post-PS today is not with the synths, but with the lazy choruses. It was SiT and forward when repeating the name of the song 8 times for the chorus became more common. I swear that if Run to the Hills had been written post reunion, it would be:
Run tooooo the hiiiiiilllllsssss
Run TOOOOO the HHIIIIILLLLSSSSSS
Run toooooo the hiiiiiiiillllllssssss
Run....TOOO....THE.....HIIIIIIILLLLLSSSSSSSSSS
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The only issue that I have with the post-PS today is not with the synths, but with the lazy choruses. It was SiT and forward when repeating the name of the song 8 times for the chorus became more common. I swear that if Run to the Hills had been written post reunion, it would be:
Run tooooo the hiiiiiilllllsssss
Run TOOOOO the HHIIIIILLLLSSSSSS
Run toooooo the hiiiiiiiillllllssssss
Run....TOOO....THE.....HIIIIIIILLLLLSSSSSSSSSS
I totally imagine that, that would be awful ;D
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Ride the Lightning is in my top 5 favorite albums. Powerslave has the amazing Rime of the Ancient Mariner and a couple other good songs.
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It's interesting how is a one-hit album AJFA (One) such a huge seller in the US. It has sold over 8 million copies, it has outsold both previous Metallica records Master and Ride (both 6 Platinum) and it has outsold entire 80's Iron Maiden and Judas Priest discography. It's the second best-selling metal album in America, behind the Black album. It seems there is a very big number of American non-metal fans who bought that album.
I'm clearly in the Maiden camp here, and wasn't at all on the Metallica train back then, but I was at Uconn when AJFA came out, and my roommate went and slept out in front of the campus record store, and there was a group of people that did the same. I can't speak to why that was - post-Cliff? - but it was a "thing" for some people.
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It's interesting how is a one-hit album AJFA (One) such a huge seller in the US. It has sold over 8 million copies, it has outsold both previous Metallica records Master and Ride (both 6 Platinum) and it has outsold entire 80's Iron Maiden and Judas Priest discography. It's the second best-selling metal album in America, behind the Black album. It seems there is a very big number of American non-metal fans who bought that album.
I'm clearly in the Maiden camp here, and wasn't at all on the Metallica train back then, but I was at Uconn when AJFA came out, and my roommate went and slept out in front of the campus record store, and there was a group of people that did the same. I can't speak to why that was - post-Cliff? - but it was a "thing" for some people.
Referring to AJFA as a "one-hit album" is fair, but only as far as the general public goes, and it's hardly the first time that a single "hit" has propelled an album to massive sales (and the fact that Metallica made a video didn't hurt). By the time AJFA was released, the public was ready for something a little heavier. Think about how truly heavy Whitesnake's "Still of the Night" was, and that was a monster song. However, I'd wager to say that a lot of those copies of AJFA haven't been played in 20+ years and that "One" probably got 95+% of the play time.
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OK. But you can't deny that Metallica guys are technically inferior musicians than guys in Maiden? Ulrich looks like an amateur compared to either Burr or McBrain and Hammett/Hetfield are much inferior guitar players than a Maiden guitar duo(Murray & Smith)? Serious argument could be made about bassists(who is better: Steve or Cliff). And vocally Dickinson puts Hetfield to shame. I think there is a general consesus that Iron Maiden is more talented than Metallica.
Let me preface this by saying that I'm only taking into account Metallica's output through the Black Album and Maiden's output through Fear of the Dark. While I have a couple of the "reunion era" Maiden albums, I haven't listened to them much.
You stuck a question mark at the end of the highlighted sentence, but it isn't phrased as a question. I certainly can deny that and will do so.
In the late 80s and early 90s, Kirk Hammett was one of the most highly acclaimed guitar players in the world. He turned up in a number of articles/discussions alongside guys like Satriani and Vai. He was far more acclaimed than Murray and/or Smith.
Similarly, Hetfield has always been regarded as one of the best rhythm guitar players in metal. There's no analog to Hetfield in Metallica, but as mentioned above, Murray and Smith never got much run as technical players, so it's certainly the case that Hetfield was a more highly regarded rhythm player than Murray and/or Smith.
In terms of bass, Jason Newsted was never held in much regard. In part, that's because the bass was inaudible on AJFA, but there was nothing exceptional about his playing on either AJFA or the Black Album. Steve Harris, on the other hand, is one of the most highly regarded bass players in all of metal. The wildcard here is Cliff Burton. The bass on KEA, RTL and MOP is more audible than on AJFA or TBA, but it's still tough to hear on a lot of songs. It also generally doubles the rhythm guitar. However, Cliff is held in fairly high regard as a musician. In part, I think this is akin to Randy Rhoads and isn't entirely deserved -- especially because the discography is so sparse. At the end of the day, I think it would be hard not give Harris the win here.
That brings us to drums. I, for one, have never understood the whole "Lars is crap" mindset. Back in the day, I always thought he was pretty good. In retrospect, I'd say he's good but not great -- which is pretty much how I've always thought of Nicko McBrain. He's good, but he's nothing special and certainly not any sort of technical wizard. I'd call this one a tie (and I'm not factoring in Clive Burr as having added anything in terms of technical skill beyond what Nicko does).
Finally, vocals. I think Bruce is widely regarded as one of the best singers in the history of metal. James not so much, but his repertoire is far more diverse than Bruce's, and, as a "thrash" singer, he was excellent.
Overall, in terms of technical skill, I would say it's extremely close (at least for the era when both bands were most successful).
- I think you're overselling Hammett. He was often cited as having STUDIED with Satch, but in my view - as someone who religiously read guitar magazines for the tablature - that was more to tell you who SATCH was, than Hammett.
- You are, in my opinion, SEVERELY underselling Nicko McBrain. He's not the star of the show; he's not even the second-billed on the marquee, but he is more than "nothing special". (Though I agree that the "Lars is crap" is bullshit).
- Hammett is using wah-wah pedal too much during playing, unlike Murray. People often criticize him for that.
- Nicko is better than average for sure (and much better than Lars), but I think Clive Burr was a superior Maiden drummer than him. Clive doesn't get enough recognition as a drummer.
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I'l give you underrated but as much as I love Burr, I don't think Maiden is where they are today without Nicko McBrain. It's chemistry as much as it's playing, and right now, Maiden has almost the perfect lockerroom for a band.
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- Hammett is using wah-wah pedal too much during playing, unlike Murray. People often criticize him for that.
Is using -- as in now, in 2019? I have no idea if that is or isn't true.
I do recall thinking sometime after the Black Album came out that Hammett was using the wah pedal a bit much. Regardless, that's a stylistic quibble that has nothing at all to do with the several months old debate that you quoted about whether the members of Metallica are/were "technically inferior musicians than the guys in Maiden."
Nicko is better than average for sure (and much better than Lars), but I think Clive Burr was a superior Maiden drummer than him. Clive doesn't get enough recognition as a drummer.
I stand by what I wrote previously about the technical skill of the three guys mentioned. As far as Burr not getting "enough recognition," I'd say he gets about what he deserves. He quit or was fired (don't remember which), so there's none of the death mystique that attaches to Cliff Burton and Randy Rhoads. Also, and while I'm not saying anything negative about him, I can't think of a single thing he did in his 115 minutes of recorded output with Maiden (plus a handful of B-sides) that I would regard as truly exceptional.
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Fired. Following the US tour for Number. (Nicko had filled in a couple dates on that tour when Clive had to go home for his father's funeral, but it's unclear what those dates were.)
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Fired. Following the US tour for Number. (Nicko had filled in a couple dates on that tour when Clive had to go home for his father's funeral, but it's unclear what those dates were.)
This is actually a big mystery. There's a whole thread on the Maidenfans forum trying to figure out which dates they were.
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This is actually a big mystery.
(https://revengeofthefans.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Scooby-Doo.png)
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They would've gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids.
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They would've gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddling kids.
:tup :tup
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The fact that I had to look up half the tracklist of Powerslave tells me I made the right choice voting for the Metallica album.
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Both great, legendary albums but I gotta go with Powerslave.
Powerslave represents a band at its peak, on top of its game and arguably the best metal band in the world at that time. RtL represents a band just on the cusp of greatness only a couple years away from dethroning the former as the best metal band in the world.
That said, many people I know have said RtL is the greatest thing Metallica has ever done.
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The fact that I had to look up half the tracklist of Powerslave tells me I made the right choice voting for the Metallica album.
The fact that I had to look up ALL the tracklist on Ride The Lightning tells me I made the right choice voting for the Maiden album.
:) :) :)
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That chorus on Flashof the Blade is just awesome though.
I’ve only heard RTL once so Powerslave it is, by a mile or two.