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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: bosk1 on March 15, 2019, 09:06:23 AM
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Inspired by a post in another thread.
Vote for which of the DT "mega-epics" is your favorite, and then go ahead and rank them. For purposes of this thread, I am only going with the huge epics that are 20+ minutes (plus TCOT, because it is SO close to 20 minutes that it might as well be). I am only including full songs, not suites of separate songs like A Mind Beside Itself or the 12-Step Suite. But if you want to include those in your rankings, go right ahead.
I'll just say right off the bat that I like all six choices quite a bit. The two most recent took a little more time to get used to because of their structures. But I really like them. Here's my ranking:
1. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: Really, I could have chosen any of my top 3 as the #1. But sometimes, more is more. Even though there are a few moments in Six Degrees that I am not crazy about, there are so many minutes of awesomeness. And to this day, I love how the end of the song so unexpectedly takes these completely separate, unrelated narratives and not only manages to bind them together cohesively, but does so with an unexpected twist in perspective. Just a really lovely song.
2. A Change of Seasons: This was the mega-epic that got it all started, and I have to give it some extra points for that. The live version on LSFNY is easily my favorite, and it is one of the primary catalysts that took me from being a casual fan for so many years from 1992 to DT being my favorite band.
3. Octavarium: One could write a thesis on all the cool things going on in this song, from the overall structure, to its integration into the overall theme of the album, to the lyrics. It still fascinates me how a song that is so long can continually build and build and build throughout its entire length to such a breathtaking climax. And then the full-circle ending... Just SO well done.
4. Illumination Theory: This one took me a while to get into. The middle section where the song comes grinding to a halt was really jarring and took me out of the song. I still feel like it goes on for too long and would make the song better if it were shorter. But I understand and can appreciate why it is there. The overall structure of the song is brilliant, and there are so many parts that are SO good!
5. ITPOE: Such a huge and fun song. There really isn't anything bad about it. It's just a bit less fantastic than choices 1-4. The decision to split it to bookend the album was an interesting one, and it works within the context of the album. But I always choose to listen to both halves back to back the way it was originally written. Like Illumination Theory, it also goes from full speed ahead to stopping on a dime. But given the themes of the song, it doesn't necessarily feel like it is losing momentum, as IT and TCOT do. And it remains dark and "doomy" and ominous, and feels like simply a shift in scenes in a story rather than stepping out of the story to momentarily go somewhere else.
6. TCOT: The slow volume swell section in the middle just killed this song for me for the longest time. Like IT, I still feel that this section, as beautiful as it is, goes for too long, and thereby sucks the momentum from the song. But I get it. It took me awhile, but I get it. And this really helped me to get IT years later. The song has a few "speed bumps," but is still a winner. Great music. Great lyrics. Great story with a nice twist. Love it.
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1. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - easy choice here for my favourite, I love every "chapter" in this one.
2. A Change Of Seasons - a truly classic DT track, not much more to say really.
3. In The Presence Of Enemies - a cool track with some great and dark moments. Angels fall, all for you - heretic!
4. Octavarium - I find it a bit overrated, but it has some nice moments.
5. Illumination Theory - I see what they were going for here, it has a nice middle section, and James vocals are great in certain parts. But nothing really grabs me.
6. The Count of Tuscany - the whole album is a bit 'meh' for me, including this song.
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I went with Octavarium by a whisker, but gosh, all those options could be so interchangable. The only song I struggle a little with there, is 6 degrees - I’m not as big of a fan of that one as many others, but that’s cool. I also need to listen to a live version if I listen to ACOS these days. If we ever mention drum sounds, the studio version of this one has drum sounds that I really don’t care for - sounds like MP is hitting some hollow, tin cans. But it’s a great song and the live beef up is my definite go to...
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1. A Mind Beside Itself (I am cheating and including this :P )
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Octavarium
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany
I do not consider 6DOIT a mega-epic, but a suite of songs, and ITPOE is 2 songs.
Come at me. :biggrin:
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We're choosing the best of very hot supermodels, so the distance between 1st and 6th is not actually huge, and it's hard to make a comparison in some cases, but...
1 - A Change of Seasons
The ultimate DT epic. 23 minutes long, and feels like a single song, coherent even if the mood dramatically changes through the various sections, and filled with many memorable musical and vocal moments throughout. An utter masterpiece.
2 - Octavarium
Another basically flawless epic. Starts with a whimper, ends with a bang. A continous crescendo of intensity and emotion, that explodes in the magnificent Razor'd Edge. Hearing it live it's almost overwhelming, and definitively an eargasm. I will never forget those sensations.
3 - Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
I could swap it with the following song, hard to even find a place for such a mammoth song so unlike anything they've ever done. As a whole it has moments I'm not really crazy about, but it's a huge undertaking and most of its 42 minutes, it works.
4 - The Count of Tuscany
Lyrics are the weak point, but the song is quite good. Too long and in need of some trimming (I have a 12 minutes edit version, made by me, that works just fine, I however had to sacrifice the ambient section which is cool by itself), but it's great and the final section is absolutely glorious. Favorite musical moment when the music builds up after the "I just don't understand" part, and from then on it's just shivers.
Also, trust a fellow italian that's been to Tuscany many time, I can't stress how much JP NAILED the atmosphere of the song. Completely perfect. You hear the intro while you're in Tuscany and it just feels.... right. Absolutely perfect atmosphere.
5 - Illumination Theory
Feels a bit disjointed, it has its moments but as a whole needs some trimming as well. Spectacular ending, they never fail those.
6 - In the Presence of Enemies
As I said, we're discussing supermodels, it's a great song anyway, but the fantasy theme feels weird for them and has a too long intro and a momentum killer solo section "because of course there has to be a solo section" before the majestic ending.
As bombastic as it is, I love a subtle and delicate moment like the low part "Angels fall, all for you, heretic" sang softly, with the piano hinting the "Grand Master" melody.
Basically this goes in three pairs for me.
A Change of Seasons and Octavarium are my clear favorites.
Six Degrees and Count are noy my favorites, but I still dig them a lot.
Illumination and Enemies, well, I enjoy them a lot anyway, but still they can't measure up full with the others.
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A Change of Seasons: Missed the EP somehow so got introduced to this via the Live Scenes DVD.
Octavarium: Great song all the way through.
In the Presence of Enemies: I seem to like this more than most on here do. Pt II in the hands (vocals?) of a lesser singer would drag this one down. James proves his worth here.
The Count of Tuscany: Seeing them do this live increased my appreciation for it. Still, it is too long with bad lyrics and wraps up an uninspired album.
Illumination Theory: Cannot connect with this one much.
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: A few good things on here, but otherwise a massively bloated piece of disconnected boredom.
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I do not consider 6DOIT a mega-epic, but a suite of songs, and ITPOE is 2 songs.
In the Presence of Enemies is a single song split as two tracks for pacing reasons.
Six Degrees.... well, that debate could go on and on and on and on. It's less cohesive than A Change of Seasons and Octavarium, but it's more cohesive than an imaginary, Astonishing epic which would include as a single track of 20 minutes Dystopian Overture + The Answer + A Better Life + Lord Nafaryus + A Savior in the Square + When Your Time Has Come.
All the Astonishing songs works better as standalone songs than the various Six Degrees tracks which feel too short when played alone.
We could pose a more "philosophical" question, how long can a song be and still feel as a song, and when the length of the song, unless it's the most repetitive piece of the world, is reached thanks only by sticking together moments that are not found before or after in the song? (such as Solitary Shell for example)
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ACOS
8VRM
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ITPOE
TCOT
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IT
6DOIT
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1. A Mind Beside Itself (I am cheating and including this :P )
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Octavarium
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany
I do not consider 6DOIT a mega-epic, but a suite of songs, and ITPOE is 2 songs.
Come at me. :biggrin:
What he said.
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1. A Mind Beside Itself (I am cheating and including this :P )
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Octavarium
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany
I do not consider 6DOIT a mega-epic, but a suite of songs, and ITPOE is 2 songs.
Come at me. :biggrin:
The ONE group of songs the band considers a suite (and not a song), you place at number one. And the one mega-epic that the band considers one song, you call it a suite. :facepalm: :rollin
As for my rankings:
1. SDOIT
2. ACOS
3. 8VM
4. ITPOE
5. TCOT
6. IT
SDOIT is my favorite DT album, and the title track is one of my favorite epics of all time. Of course, the classic ACOS is always a favorite, but falls just behind SDOIT for me. Octavarium was the band's first new album for me after becoming a fan, so the title track really stuck out to me; I love all of its various prog-inspired moments and sections. The rest of the ranking just sort of falls into place, chronologically oddly enough for me.
-Marc.
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I do not consider 6DOIT a mega-epic, but a suite of songs, and ITPOE is 2 songs.
Come at me. :biggrin:
Eh, no need to "come at" you. You are entitled to "consider" them whatever you wish. That doesn't change what the author said they are or wrote them to be. They are what they are. But from the listener's perspective, what they sound or feel like is pretty subjective, and as I said in the OP, the thread allows for that. So have at it however you wish. You certainly aren't the only one to feel that way. :tup
4 - The Count of Tuscany
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Also, trust a fellow italian that's been to Tuscany many time, I can't stress how much JP NAILED the atmosphere of the song. Completely perfect. You hear the intro while you're in Tuscany and it just feels.... right. Absolutely perfect atmosphere.
That's so cool to know. As a complete outsider in that regard, I would say that the song feels like would I would picture the Italian countryside to be like. But as someone who is from far, far away, and not from there, that means little. It's cool to know from someone that lives there that that is exactly right.
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1. Octavarium - I always liked it to some extent, but it took some time to fully grow on me, but now, yeah, it's one of the most enjoyable listens for me from DT, through and through. My favorite of their mega-epics.
2. In the Presence of Enemies - This is just one that I think is incredibly awesome and consistent, moment to moment, and all the way through. I don't mind that it's divided into 2, bookending the album, but in general, that does make me treat it as two different songs.
3. Illumination Theory - This is like the opposite of In The Presence of Enemies, I feel like that silent break in the middle could have warranted splitting it into 2, even though in terms of how it flows, it does feel like one cohesive whole, at least lyrically. Either way, I listen to it quite consistently, and really enjoy it.
4. A Change of Seasons - Now, here's one that's like a ringer for the epitome of DT's mega-epics, and after I first heard it, I worshipped it as much as any standard DT fan. But over time, I've grown a bit more lukewarm to it. The only part of it that I really absolutely love is Another World. Everything else is pretty okay, the main riff is nice. On its own merits, it is an amazing epic, but it's far from their magnum opus. They've topped themselves time and again since.
5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - The problem with this one is that it's so big, and each part brings so much variety, that statistically speaking, it's very easy for one or two parts of it to not fully click with someone, and that inevitably brings the whole thing down. While About To Crash (+ Reprise), Solitary Shell, and Losing Time/Grand Finale are fantastic, and War Inside My Head is pretty cool, but for me The Test That Stumped and Goodnight Kiss (especially being back to back), really bring the whole thing down. They're not awful, but the lyrics and the execution don't stand up to the other parts. And it's unfortunate that the Overture wasn't done with real instruments. It does sound a bit inorganic.
6. The Count of Tuscany - The red-headed stepchild of the mega epics. Its best musical moments are amazing, but those are mostly the melodic, acoustic ones, i.e. the intro and the outro. The heavy parts have some cool moments, but overall, it's heavily underwhelming all around. And I'm not even one of the people who has a problem with the lyrics, just musically. Portnoy's backup vocals bring it down a great deal, but the vocal melodies in general just weren't very good or interesting. The riffs and other parts were a bit underwhelming too.
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I do not consider 6DOIT a mega-epic, but a suite of songs, and ITPOE is 2 songs.
In the Presence of Enemies is a single song split as two tracks for pacing reasons.
Correction: it was a single song that was then split into two songs. I cannot call two tracks one song when they are not even back to back on the same studio album.
The ONE group of songs the band considers a suite (and not a song), you place at number one. And the one mega-epic that the band considers one song, you call it a suite. :facepalm: :rollin
Eh, no need to "come at" you. You are entitled to "consider" them whatever you wish. That doesn't change what the author said they are or wrote them to be. They are what they are. But from the listener's perspective, what they sound or feel like is pretty subjective, and as I said in the OP, the thread allows for that. So have at it however you wish. You certainly aren't the only one to feel that way. :tup
Not to get into a battle over semantics, but I do not subscribe to the line of thinking that the author alone gets to say how their work is defined. John Petrucci could come out tomorrow and say that Viper King is a rap song, but that wouldn't make it so just because he said it. While that is an extreme and unrealistic example, the logic still applies. When I listen to the 6DOIT suite, I do not hear a single song; I hear eight songs that mostly run together to make a suite, similar to how concept albums are often filled with songs that mostly run and/or fade together.
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SixDOIT - This to me, is DT in a nutshell. You have the grandiose 6 minute intro, virtuosity and prog throughout, heavy sections, soft sections, changing time signatures, and it's 42 minutes long.
ITPOE - Fantastic balls to the wall 25 minute banger. I love all the melodies and how it starts immediately, and ends with an epic reprise of the overture.
IT - It is very disjointed, but the violins and the final vocal verse makes me cry. This was playing at the end of a 5-mile run, and usually I give up and walk the last quarter-mile because I'm tired, but when I heard the chords of the final section, it motivated me to sprint the whole way home.
ACOS - Not much to say here. I love the melodies in certain parts, but don't enjoy the sound quality.
Octavarium - This used to be my favorite, but when I look back now, there's not a lot that I truly truly love about it. There's too much calm in the beginning from Someone Like Him through Medicate. The part between Medicate and Full Circle, along with the long instrumental before Intervals are amazing.
I personally don't count TCOT as a mega-epic, just one very long song. Mainly because it doesn't have defined sections. Trial of Tears and False Awakenings have defined sections, but they're too short to be mega-epics in my opinion. I think a Mega-Epic needs to be both longer than 20 minutes and have defined titles for each"I, II, III, IV, etc."
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@Kev: I'll just say that I will agree to disagree and leave it at that. No need to bog the thread down with, as you rightly say, what boils down to a battle of semantics. I think I am demonstrably, unequivocally right. You feel the same. At the end of the day, we're only debating about music, not solving the weightier problems of the world. And we're talking about music that we both enjoy, so who cares? I'm okay with you looking at it differently than I do. :tup
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1: Octavarium - 10/10
2: ITPOE - 9/10
3: The Count of Tuscany - 8/10
4: ACOS - 8/10
5: Illumination Theory - 7/10
6: 6DOIT - I don't even consider this a single song tbh, and the only part of it I really like is The Test that Stumped Them All.
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@Kev: I'll just say that I will agree to disagree and leave it at that. No need to bog the thread down with, as you rightly say, what boils down to a battle of semantics. I think I am demonstrably, unequivocally right. You feel the same. At the end of the day, we're only debating about music, not solving the weightier problems of the world. And we're talking about music that we both enjoy, so who cares? I'm okay with you looking at it differently than I do. :tup
:tup :tup
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I do not consider 6DOIT a mega-epic, but a suite of songs, and ITPOE is 2 songs.
In the Presence of Enemies is a single song split as two tracks for pacing reasons.
Correction: it was a single song that was then split into two songs. I cannot call two tracks one song when they are not even back to back on the same studio album.
So I assume you don't consider "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" or "I Am The Sun" to be single songs as well, since they are also split and bookend their respective albums? In the case of ITPOE, at least it was played live as a single song, so does it count then? Or is the studio album the one and only canon when it comes to how songs should be considered/listened?
The ONE group of songs the band considers a suite (and not a song), you place at number one. And the one mega-epic that the band considers one song, you call it a suite. :facepalm: :rollin
Eh, no need to "come at" you. You are entitled to "consider" them whatever you wish. That doesn't change what the author said they are or wrote them to be. They are what they are. But from the listener's perspective, what they sound or feel like is pretty subjective, and as I said in the OP, the thread allows for that. So have at it however you wish. You certainly aren't the only one to feel that way. :tup
Not to get into a battle over semantics, but I do not subscribe to the line of thinking that the author alone gets to say how their work is defined. John Petrucci could come out tomorrow and say that Viper King is a rap song, but that wouldn't make it so just because he said it. While that is an extreme and unrealistic example, the logic still applies. When I listen to the 6DOIT suite, I do not hear a single song; I hear eight songs that mostly run together to make a suite, similar to how concept albums are often filled with songs that mostly run and/or fade together.
That's fair. As Bosk said, listener interpretation is pretty subjective, which is why I consider SDOIT a single song. I've always heard it as such, and the Overture links everything together, and there are recurring themes throughout the whole thing, so for me, it's just one long song with 8 movements.
I personally don't count TCOT as a mega-epic, just one very long song. Mainly because it doesn't have defined sections. Trial of Tears and False Awakenings have defined sections, but they're too short to be mega-epics in my opinion. I think a Mega-Epic needs to be both longer than 20 minutes and have defined titles for each"I, II, III, IV, etc."
That's interesting, though the song definitely feels like it has sections. You get an overture-ish opening, the section with verses and choruses, then the ambient/LTE-inspired middle section, then the outro. Years ago, I created names for each of TCOT's "movements" but I forget what they were. So do you not consider something like Neal Morse's "Seeds Of Gold" as a "Mega-Epic" as it doesn't have any of his trademark movement titles (which he has used since The Light)?
-Marc.
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There’s a clear ranking for me, but all six songs are in my top 50, so I love all of them.
1) Octavarium: I’ve said everything that could be said about it. My favorite song of all time.
2) The Count of Tuscany: Perfect way for my favorite Dream Theater lineup to go out.
3) A Change of Seasons: It set the tone for Dream Theater epics, and still holds up over 20 years later.
4) Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: Brilliantly composed and touches on a subject that people are still afraid to talk about.
5) Illumination Theory: The song that made me fully accept Mangini as Dream Theater’s drummer.
6) In the Presence of Enemies: Amazing song, just wish the band wouldn’t have split it up on the album.
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Easily Octavarium, then ACoS, TCoT & Illumination Theory. Since 6 degrees and ItPoE aren't single tracks I don't ever consider them as epics but if those two went head to head ItPoE would be cowering in the corner.
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1 - A Change of Seasons: They still haven't topped the original, and maybe because it was the first it will always hold that special place...good times back then.
2a - In the Presence of Enemies: Tight call between this and Octavarium...This one gets the edge because I find it slightly harder...
2b - Octavarium: Amazing, beautiful, and proggy...
3- Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: Just listened to this back to front the other day, and still get's me every time...but the outro is a little long (and I don't mean the silly 2 minutes)
4 - The Count of Tuscany: I guess where we draw the line of "Epic" is kind of in the sand, but I can see how this can count. I love the song (not the lyrics), but it's at the bottom because I never considered this an Epic but rather just a really long song...again, I guess lines in the sand eh?
5- Illumination Theory: Great song...but the wonders of modern editing abilities, I just delete out the centre 6 minutes, which I consider boring and useless, and make a much better 17:43 minute song. It doesn't lose momentum and gets to the point.
Shouldn't "A Mind Beside Itself" count at all? Clocking in at 20 minutes and designed to be the centerpiece epic?
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This is pretty easy. The only tough call was between Octavarium and IT.
1. ACOS - Aside from it being the oldest/original, there are just no low points.
2. SDOIT - I won't touch the "single song" versus "suite" debate (except to say that the band's opinion on this means little to me in this regard). Regardless, disc 2 of SDOIT (the album) is an epic in every sense of the word. It works so well as a whole even though it has a couple low points (relatively speaking).
3. Octavarium - The biggest problem with this song is that its lowest points are at the beginning. I just can't bring myself to listen to the continuum/steel guitar intro and will almost always fast forward to the point where the full band comes in. Sometimes I'll even fast forward to Jordan's synth solo around 12 minutes in, but that's only when I have limited time. The second half of the song, however, is more than enough to make this a real epic.
4. Illumination Theory - Other than the "tag" (or whatever you want to call it) at the end, I love everything about this song. When I first heard it and got to the "Disney" keyboard break, I was very concerned that it was too much like TCOT and distinctly recall thinking that the section better not go on too long. It didn't. It's an appropriate length and is one of the more hauntingly beautiful things in DT's catalog. The instrumental break right before that section is another one of my favorite moments in the catalog.
5. TCOT - Lots of good stuff going on here, but also some low points. I don't have much problem with the lyrics, but parts do stick out sorely, and I'm not a huge fan of the verses. I also fast forward through the interlude section (which I think is continuum) almost always.
6. ITPOE - I know a lot of folks love ITPOE, but it's never worked for me. I recall putting SC in the CD player the first time and thinking the intro was really cool and some what reminiscent of the 5's and 7's section from Metropolis. After a few minutes, I was thinking, ok, now lets get somewhere with the song, and just as I thought they were about to do that, they kicked it up a notch with the "Flight of the Bumblebee" section, which just made my eyes roll. WAY more wankery than I wanted. And the song never recovered. Every so often, I give it another try, but it's never done anything for me.
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1 - A Change of Seasons: They still haven't topped the original, and maybe because it was the first it will always hold that special place...good times back then.
I want to take a second to comment on this because I love posts like this. In a way, it seems odd to say a song "deserves" some sort of special recognition. But clearly, some songs do. Doing a 23-minute epic was a landmark in the band's history, and was kind of a landmark in prog metal history as well. That, combined with just how good the song is, really give it a special status, and I think it's cool to see that recognized. :tup
4 - The Count of Tuscany: I guess where we draw the line of "Epic" is kind of in the sand, but I can see how this can count. I love the song (not the lyrics), but it's at the bottom because I never considered this an Epic but rather just a really long song...again, I guess lines in the sand eh?
You raise a good point, so I'll comment on it. There are a lot of different criteria we could use to define what is or isn't an "epic." A lot, and perhaps all, of that is subjective. And a lot of it depends on the context of the song too. I mean, most Queensryche fans would consider Anybody Listening? to be an "epic" because it has a huge, epic sound, really takes the listener on a journey, and is a good deal longer than the typical QR song. But it's also a good deal shorter than, for example, the typical DT song. Even on an album like d/t, which is an album of "short" (by DT standard) songs, it would be on the shorter side. But song length CAN be a factor. To me (and I don't know many who would disagree), it the song approaches 20 minutes, I think it's safe to consider it an "epic," regardless of other typical "epic" factors maybe not being present. They are "factors," not hard and fast rules. But even if someone out there doesn't consider it a "true epic," that's fine. I do, for purposes of this poll only. People can either include it in their rankings or not, and it's all fine. :tup
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1 - A Change of Seasons: They still haven't topped the original, and maybe because it was the first it will always hold that special place...good times back then.
I want to take a second to comment on this because I love posts like this. In a way, it seems odd to say a song "deserves" some sort of special recognition. But clearly, some songs do. Doing a 23-minute epic was a landmark in the band's history, and was kind of a landmark in prog metal history as well. That, combined with just how good the song is, really give it a special status, and I think it's cool to see that recognized. :tup
Definitely a landmark song in prog metal history, for sure, but after looking up the discographies for Queensryche and Fates Warning (the other two bands often cited as being a part of the "Big 3" of prog metal, along with DT), I see that FW released a 22-minute epic back in 1988, "The Ivory Gate of Dreams". I'm not into FW at all, but I wonder how this compares to ACOS, and does it stand up to FW fans in the same way that ACOS does for DT fans? I wonder if FW doing an epic in '88 influenced DT to pen ACOS just a few years later.
-Marc.
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I personally don't count TCOT as a mega-epic, just one very long song. Mainly because it doesn't have defined sections. Trial of Tears and False Awakenings have defined sections, but they're too short to be mega-epics in my opinion. I think a Mega-Epic needs to be both longer than 20 minutes and have defined titles for each"I, II, III, IV, etc."
That's interesting, though the song definitely feels like it has sections. You get an overture-ish opening, the section with verses and choruses, then the ambient/LTE-inspired middle section, then the outro. Years ago, I created names for each of TCOT's "movements" but I forget what they were. So do you not consider something like Neal Morse's "Seeds Of Gold" as a "Mega-Epic" as it doesn't have any of his trademark movement titles (which he has used since The Light)?
-Marc.
I'm not familiar with Neal Morse besides TSOAD, so I can't really judge.
I hate to sound like I'm moving the goalposts here, but while I agree that there are definitely different sections to TCOT, they feel more like sections than actual movements (which may or may not be a semantic thing, but I'll try to explain).
There are 4 distinct parts as you say: The Intro, the heavy part with the verses and choruses, the ambient section, and the finale.
To me, The Count of Tuscany is just one very long song structured as Intro, Verse 1, Chorus, Verse 2, Chorus, Bridge, Final Section, which matches the structure of a lot of their other songs (Barstool Warrior comes to mind immediately), and it is a structure that none of the other epics have. TCOT's vocal lines are contained entirely within section 2 and 4. 8VM has vocals in all 5 parts, and they are all completely different. All of ITPOE's vocal sections are different from each other too. IT has the least amount of vocals, but all the sections are about different things. 6DOIT is 6 different stories told in 8 movements, and ACOS is a journey through life in 7 movements.
I don't know if I can ever change anyone's mind, but that's my reasoning
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Stick Illumination Theory in between Octavarium and ITPOE and the poll order is my ranking.
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1 - A Change of Seasons: They still haven't topped the original, and maybe because it was the first it will always hold that special place...good times back then.
I want to take a second to comment on this because I love posts like this. In a way, it seems odd to say a song "deserves" some sort of special recognition. But clearly, some songs do. Doing a 23-minute epic was a landmark in the band's history, and was kind of a landmark in prog metal history as well. That, combined with just how good the song is, really give it a special status, and I think it's cool to see that recognized. :tup
Definitely a landmark song in prog metal history, for sure, but after looking up the discographies for Queensryche and Fates Warning (the other two bands often cited as being a part of the "Big 3" of prog metal, along with DT), I see that FW released a 22-minute epic back in 1988, "The Ivory Gate of Dreams". I'm not into FW at all, but I wonder how this compares to ACOS, and does it stand up to FW fans in the same way that ACOS does for DT fans? I wonder if FW doing an epic in '88 influenced DT to pen ACOS just a few years later.
-Marc.
The Ivory Gate of Dreams is cut from the same mold as Rush's 2112 and Hemispheres (Book II), whereas ACOS is more similar to songs like Close to the Edge and Gates of Delirium by Yes or Supper's Ready by Genesis. I became a fan of FW not long after No Exit (the album on which TIGOD appears) was released. From the moment I first heard TIGOD, I LOVED it, and I still feel the same way. While I can't say whether TIGOD had any sort of direct influence on DT writing ACOS, I think it's pretty well known that FW influenced DT and that the members of DT were fans of FW. FW and DT also did a co-headlining tour back in 1994 -- shortly before ACOS was recorded -- but ACOS was written before then.
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I have one clear favourite and one that I don't really care for, with the other 4 all very closely matched and not that far behind my favourite.
1. Octavarium - I just love how this whole song is crafted and feel like its whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Razors Edge to the end though, is especially brilliant. 8VM was the first DT album I heard and I probably needed a little time to digest a 24-minute song, coming from a more metal background, but it's been right near the top of my rankings since.
2. IT - The clear high point from an otherwise disappointing album. I smoothly edited out the ambient/sound effects section, but I love everything else about the song, especially the climax again. Really enjoyed Erwin's (I think) analysis of the song too
3. ITPOE - I love the dark vibe of this one, great instrumental work but also a brilliant performance from James. I don't mind that they split it up for the album and it works quite well, but unless I'm listening to the album as a whole I'll always listen to it as one piece
4. ACOS - Again I love the whole thing, incredible lyrics and emotion throughout. I miss a couple of instrumental bits from the earlier versions of the song, but the rest of the changes were for the better. It's also a bit of a shame it came after James' injury, though he still puts in a brilliant performance.
5. TCOT - Similar to IT in that it's a clear standout from a disappointing album. Lyrically it's a bit dodgy, but somehow that doesn't seem to detract from the song. Musically it's brilliant and I still remember the goosebumps from the first time I heard the "could this be the end?" part
6. 6DOIT - I'm with Kev on this one. It has always felt like separate songs to me and maybe that's why I don't rate it as highly as most others do. Or maybe it's the other way round and it feels like separate songs because I don't like it that much. I would never say others are wrong about it being one song, I'm just going by how I feel about it. It still frustrates me that the album as a whole has never clicked with me as it has with so many others :(
I found it really tough to separate 2-5 and in the end just went to an old playlist I had of my favourite DT tracks and listed them as I had them in there. I guess I added IT in there when it was still really fresh, otherwise it may have been slightly lower. But either way, the first 5 are all in my top 10.
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1 - A Change of Seasons: They still haven't topped the original, and maybe because it was the first it will always hold that special place...good times back then.
I want to take a second to comment on this because I love posts like this. In a way, it seems odd to say a song "deserves" some sort of special recognition. But clearly, some songs do. Doing a 23-minute epic was a landmark in the band's history, and was kind of a landmark in prog metal history as well. That, combined with just how good the song is, really give it a special status, and I think it's cool to see that recognized. :tup
Definitely a landmark song in prog metal history, for sure, but after looking up the discographies for Queensryche and Fates Warning (the other two bands often cited as being a part of the "Big 3" of prog metal, along with DT), I see that FW released a 22-minute epic back in 1988, "The Ivory Gate of Dreams". I'm not into FW at all, but I wonder how this compares to ACOS, and does it stand up to FW fans in the same way that ACOS does for DT fans? I wonder if FW doing an epic in '88 influenced DT to pen ACOS just a few years later.
-Marc.
The Ivory Gate of Dreams is cut from the same mold as Rush's 2112 and Hemispheres (Book II), whereas ACOS is more similar to songs like Close to the Edge and Gates of Delirium by Yes or Supper's Ready by Genesis. I became a fan of FW not long after No Exit (the album on which TIGOD appears) was released. From the moment I first heard TIGOD, I LOVED it, and I still feel the same way. While I can't say whether TIGOD had any sort of direct influence on DT writing ACOS, I think it's pretty well known that FW influenced DT and that the members of DT were fans of FW. FW and DT also did a co-headlining tour back in 1994 -- shortly before ACOS was recorded -- but ACOS was written before then.
:tup Thanks for the response. Interesting that you say ACOS is more like those Yes epics or "Supper's Ready", because I definitely get some "2112" vibes as well. I've added TIGOD to my YouTube watch later list, and I'll give it a spin this weekend when I'm off work. Now I am intrigued by it from how you describe it. I do recall that members of DT did say they were fans of FW, but like you say, we can't be too sure if they were influenced to write a prog metal epic after FW did in 88, but I'm sure they were itching to at some point given their classic prog influences.
-Marc.
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To me it goes like this
1) ACOS: This one is flawless to me. Everything in this piece screams awesomeness.
2) SDOIT: This is was the first time got the DT feeling of music taking to many different places. It's a close 2nd to ACOS.
3) ITPOTE: The guitar work on this piece and the composition make it an amazing piece.
4) Octavarium: Really good (I wrote a paper about this piece in college :metal ) it's just not as seamless as the other pieces.
5) IT: Pretty good piece, but nothing unique about it.
6) TCOT: As weird as the story is, I actually enjoy it. Just not as epic as the other pieces.
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So I assume you don't consider "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" or "I Am The Sun" to be single songs as well, since they are also split and bookend their respective albums? In the case of ITPOE, at least it was played live as a single song, so does it count then? Or is the studio album the one and only canon when it comes to how songs should be considered/listened?
ITPOE Part 1 was also played quite a few times as the single song that it is, IIRC, so there is that. Shine On... and I Am the Sun are not single songs, no, although I know cheated years ago when I did my TFK top 50, putting both Garden of Dreams and I Am the Sun as single tracks, partly for simplicity's sake at the time, and partly because I would have had no clue how to break up the Garden of Dreams songs and then rank them among the rest of their songs.
By and large, I think studio albums are the best way to judge these things (which are subjective, of course), since we could point to the live renditions of I Am the Sun and say that end of Part I and beginning of Part II are not real parts of the "single song" since they never play those parts live.
That's fair. As Bosk said, listener interpretation is pretty subjective, which is why I consider SDOIT a single song. I've always heard it as such, and the Overture links everything together, and there are recurring themes throughout the whole thing, so for me, it's just one long song with 8 movements.
That is true, but albums like Similitude, The Great Adventure and Testimony all have an overture that links it all together and then recurring themes throughout, and I can't imagine calling each of those albums a single song.
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Actually I love all of these songs, but I can say that Octavarium is my favorite of them all and I hope I get to see it live one day. The first 4 places are total perfection for me:
1. Octavarium - Absoultely perfection!
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - I love it, but Octavarium is better IMO.
3. A Change Of Seasons - The classic DT mega-epic!
4. In The Presence Of Enemies - I love this song, I really like the lyrics and it's quite the trip.
5. The Count of Tuscany - I love it but i could do without the slow middle part. I don't have any problem with the lyrics.
6. Illumination Theory - I really love the parts where the full band is playing, I'm not so keen on the middle ambient part. Actually I edited the song and erase the ambient/strings part. After this edit I absolutely love the song, but it's not a mega-epic anymore.
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:tup Thanks for the response. Interesting that you say ACOS is more like those Yes epics or "Supper's Ready", because I definitely get some "2112" vibes as well. I've added TIGOD to my YouTube watch later list, and I'll give it a spin this weekend when I'm off work. Now I am intrigued by it from how you describe it. I do recall that members of DT did say they were fans of FW, but like you say, we can't be too sure if they were influenced to write a prog metal epic after FW did in 88, but I'm sure they were itching to at some point given their classic prog influences.
I'll look forward to reading what you think. If you're interested, this is the literary basis for TIGOD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gates_of_horn_and_ivory
My best guess is that that ACOS was more influenced by the Yes and Genesis songs because, to me, ACOS feels more like a metal version of that type of song -- a single song with various section. On the other hand, each of 2112, Hemispheres and TIGOD feels more like 6-7 separate but related songs that fit together with a common theme.
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I really consider Six Degrees as a makeup of several different songs... they even did tracks for them.
However, If I had to consider it as one song (which I know it is) I would rank like this:
1. Six Degrees - Amazing - Such an incredibly fun and vibrant 42 minutes. It has everything you can possibly want from DT.
2. Change of Seasons - Amazing - I basically had to decide between "eclectic or cohesive" and I chose eclectic. However, Change of Seasons is just as good as SDOIT IMO. Some of James' best vocals, "clock on the wall" "sick of all you hypocrites", just amazingly brilliant stuff and the guitar work is stunning. I wish Portnoy used a different drum kit, but other than that a total classic. Huge drop off from here to Octavarium.
3. Octavarium - Something is missing to me, I don't like the production and the vocal melodies are "eh". Still great overall though.
4. Count of Tuscany- I love this song... the get into my car part is pretty weak but the intro and outros are amazing.
5. Illumination Theory- I love a lot of this song... but I don't revisit it that much for some reason. I think James came out of his Solitary Shell on this one.... best vocals since Six Degrees :)... and then they got better on TA and even better on D/T.
6. ITPOE - Boring, Stale, ugly. Worst lyrical production of all their albums. The intro is pretty cool but the rest is just "Meh".
Now, I am grading these on a DT curve... ITPOE part 1 and 2 are still pretty cool compared to most music.
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I'll have to agree with Kev about SDOIT. I know it's one song but it sounds like it's a thematical indivicual songs telling a story overall. But I think it doesn't matter ITPOE parted two songs it feels completely connected and sounds one.
My ranking is
1- Octavarium
2- A Change Of Seaons
3- In The Presence Of Enemies
4- A Mind Beside Itself (Yeah I cheat too.)
5- The Count Of Tuscany (Sorry I don't like lyrics.)
6- Illumination Theory (It's so disconneted between passages. AMBI even feels more connected than that.)
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8V - I discovered DT late in my musical life (2004, I was 41), 8V was my first 'new' DT album, so I devoured it, and to this day this song is just at the top. My dad had just passed and the whole "I never wanted to become someone like him" through "I wanted to become, to be someone just like him" totally floored me (so true!). All the sections are brilliant and the ending is one of, if not the most epic endings of any song. I saw it live in RCMH at the Score show, but for some reason, my lasting impression is JP leaning backwards to the point of almost falling back, holding that final note for what seemed like 5 minutes, at the end of Schmedley Wilcox on the Chaos tour.
ACOS - Nothing to say that hasn't been said. These two may actually be 1 and 1A for me.
TCOT - Another album that I devoured when it first came out, I was living a bit of a bachelor life at the time while my wife and kid were away for almost a month that summer, so this played non-stop in the house, loud. Heard it recently for the first time in a while and it has aged quite well (like all the finest wines).
6DOIT - Never connected with this one too much, my first exposure to it was War Inside My Head/Test That Stumped Them All back to back on the Budokan DVD, I loved those tracks, so heavy, but when I finally got the album , the rest of it didn't stand up. That said, it was great to see live with the 8V orchestra at RCMH.
ITPOE - Liked the first part when SC first came out, the second part not as much, but honestly haven't revisited this album much since the initial excitement of a new release wore off.
IT - Barely know it, somewhat fell out of love with DT since MP left. But this new album is bringing me back in a big way!
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1. Octavarium
2. Illumination Theory
3. A Change of Seasons
4. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
5. In the Presence of Enemies
Pretty standard list, so I'll weigh in on the semantics.
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence has exactly the same structure as Porcupine Tree's album The Incident. SW described it as a song cycle, I'd happily go along with Six Degrees being the same thing - but I'm on board with both angles and do count it as an epic.
The Count of Tuscany is well out of the running for an epic, for me. ANTR and TCoT are both in the same bracket, and that's "closer" in spirit to In the Name of God than A Change of Seasons. Just a long song! I think the lack of named sections does make a difference.
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1. Octavarium
2. The Count Of Tuscany
3. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
4. In The Presence Of Enemies
5. A Change Of Seasons
6. Illumination Theory
In The Presence and Six Degrees are very close to each other, and they could swap any day. It's hard to rank them among each other because they are so different. They are amazing in very different way.
Octavarium is one of my 3 favourite songs of all time however (the other one being Supper's Ready and The Gates Of Delirium), and it's mainly the reason why I am a prog fan. Very important song for me.
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1. Octavarium. 10/10, their masterpiece.
2. A Change of Seasons. 10/10, ever-so-slightly behind.
3. The Count of Tuscany. 10/10, for a long time my favourite of theirs.
4. In The Presence of Enemies. 9/10. Fantastic musicianship, lyrics I take in the fun spirit I think they were meant.
5. Illumination Theory. 9/10. Beautiful piece of music.
6. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. 4/10. On the whole not for me but some wonderful parts.
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ACOS
OV
IT
TCOT
SDOIT
ITPOE
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I am the only one who voted for IT. :lol Oh well. I really love how perfectly structured this song is despite the length. And the range of emotions match the lyrics.
SDOIT - ambitious and over the top. ATC, SS and ATC(R) are amazong sections.
ITPOE - works well for me as separate songs. ITPOE 2 really clicked for me last year.
8VM - Amazing if not for the atrocious lyrics in the Full Circle section.
ACOS - Good template for future epics. I do not really connect with it much and I find a lot of sections long just for length's sake.
TCOT - excellent intro and ending. But the sections from the metal to the ambient just don't do it for me.
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I am the only one who voted for IT. :lol
I am stunned you voted for the only song on the list that has Mike Mangini. :P
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1. Octavarium - The very first DT song I heard and still my favorite.
2. The Count of Tuscany - I'm surprised hos divisive this song is. It has some of Petrucci and Rudess' best work.
3. A Change of Seasons - I can't say anything about this song that hasn't already said.
4. In the Presence of Enemies - DT's most underrated epic, IMO.
5. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - Great song overall but some of the sections are a bit weaker than others.
6. Illumination Theory - A little disjointed but still very enjoyable.
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01. Octavarium - imo one of the best pieces of music ever written
02. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - an overall fantastic song cycle, even with that stupid 2 minute fade out
03. In the Presence of Enemies - epic all the way through, but not quite as memorable as the above two
04. The Count of Tuscany - the acoustic sections are fantastic. If it wasn't for the sheer amounts of "ALL THE FINEST WINES...IMPROVE WITH AGE!" this would be easily #2
05. A Change of Seasons - has some cool moments, but honestly I don't find it very memorable.
06. Illumination Theory - again, some very cool moments scattered throughout the song, but man is it kind of a hot mess.
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1. ACOS - it is not just their best epic, it is also their very best song. The fact it was written during the Images and Words sessions speaks volumes at the kind of creative level they were so early in their career. It’s the only epic I actually seek, it simply never gets old.
2. Octavarium - this one took the longest to grow on me. I still think the intro is drawn out a bit too long, but what happens after is just absolutely amazing.
3 6DOIT - their most epic sounding epic. Their best produced one too IMO
4. IT - yes, ranking it this high is going a bit against the grain, but I think this is a great epic, even if at parts it sounds a bit all over the place. It is fun to listen.
5. TCOT - solid song, I listen to it when it comes on my playlist, but I don’t actively seek it. Big fan of the outro.
6. ITPOE - DT did the Pink Floyd thing by splitting the epic as first and last songs of the album, and I thought that was cool. Unfortunately, it didn’t work nowhere near as good as Shine On You Crazy Diamond. And I can’t get past the absolutely silly lyrics “dark master I will come for you”. In fact that whole album is a lyrical cornball. I think this song would work better if it wasn’t split.
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Surprised to see In The Presence of Enemies ranked so highly but that made me think that I never actually listened to the two parts together.
Herrick's ranking:
1. A Change of Mofuckin' Seasons by faaaaaaaaar.
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
3. Octavarium
4. Illumination Theory
5. The Count of Tuscany or In The Presence of Enemies. Maybe I'll make a decision after listening to both parts of the latter song black to black.
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1. A Change of Seasons
I can't even remember how many times I'd listen ACOS back in day..that piece alone made me wanna write/improvise music like this. With all the changes in moods and great lyrics it really sparked the love for DT even more..So that was my first choice!
2. 6 Degrees...
Oh the memories of having the CD all summer long and trying to figure out the music..it's more of an anthology of pieces for me that make a great epic!
3. Tuscany...
BC&SL to me is a great balanced album, with many epics, this one is fast. heavy, and really melodic..
4. In the presence of Enemies
Systematic Chaos..what a weird album.. believe it or not it was in the last couple of years that I truly appreciated this one, it's really epic, complex with nice shreds and tells a cool story..
5. Octavarium
Well I can see the Pink Floyd influence in this one..it's very organic, not so complex as other epics but very emotional..
6.Illumination
Yeah I never could get into this one, some great riffs here and there and the opening theme is very cool, but that moment where the music stops and goes to strings...I don't know it kinda halts the flow of the piece...
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Octavarium (10/10) A perfect building epic, with some of my favorite DT moments, including the "Someone like him" section, the keyboard "solo" that follows, and topped with a major climax and a glorious finale, only flaw is the guitar could have been mixed louder.
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (10/10) A huge epic, emits a very positive vibe, and flows extremely well. This is DT's best album, and it's within their best album imo. Dark Side of the Moon is just about the same length, goes by in a flash.
A Change of Seasons (9.5/10) I obviously also think this epic is fantastic, but I don't connect with this one as much, and the individual sections are more complex than 8vm and Six Degrees, but the overall mix is weird; if this song had Awake production values it would be better.
The Count of Tuscany (9/10) The lyrics bring it down a peg, but otherwise another excellent composition.
In The Presence of Enemies (8/10) Mostly great, kind of drags in the middle, not as big on the darker theme or the "metul" vibe, but there are some intense moments on this one.
Illumination Theory (4.5/10) a bad epic, not well arranged, but the 3 main parts of the tune (the ambient section, the orchestral section, and everything else) are all great, and I particularly think the orchestral section is one of the most beautiful pieces of music I've ever heard. This is a tune that could have benefited from being worked on more, tweaking it, similarly to A Change of Seasons and much of the band's IaW material. I think the little Easter egg at the end of the track is better than the entirety of IT
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1. A Change of Seasons - If there is one song that is Dream Theater's magnum opus, it's this one. Excellent all the way through, it's also their only epic with lyrics that carry actual emotional weight. It's in a league of its own.
2. A Mind Beside Itself - ...but this one does come pretty close.
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - A stunning piece of work. It ebbs and flows through many sections, from full on heavy to acoustic, intense to laid-back and even playful. All sections work well on their own as songs and the transitions are almost seamless. But of course the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
4. Octavarium - It's really great, yes. The way it continually builds is interesting, the downside is that it takes a while to get going. Half the song, really. To put it another way: the 'boiling' is outstanding but it just simmers for so long. The finale is of course one of the most glorious sections in the catalogue.
5. In the Presence of Enemies - Mostly great, though the solo section meanders and should be cut. The rest rocks (Prelude), drives (Slaughter of the Damned) or is just awesome (Heretic).
6. The Count of Tuscany - The intro, ambient section and outro are all very good. The verses/choruses (you know, the actual song) are not. And the lyrics... I mean, the story is absurd.
7. Illumination Theory - I don't really care for it.
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1. A Change of Seasons - probably my favorite DT song (5/5 stars)
2. Octavarium (5/5)
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (4/5)
4. In the Presence of Enemies (3.5/5)
5. The Count of Tuscany (3/5)
6. Illumination Theory (2.5/5)
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Hm... just using the 6 presented in the OP.
#6. Illumination Theory
This song is disjointed to me. It has some cool ideas, but it doesn't flow well between sections - the orchestral section in the middle just doesn't fit, the transitions in and out don't work to me. The tag at the end of the song is a bit annoying when it comes on shuffle. I don't like the nebulous lyrics, the production, or the riffs, and in fact the only thing I really like about this is the amazing epic build into the last verses. Mangini's fills, that driving kick drum on the beat, the crack of those toms or whatever he's hitting - magical. Unfortunately that's the only thing I really like about this song.
#5. In The Presence of Enemies
Some great music in this song across both parts. For part 1 I really like the riff and just how the band works so well. I love the tension in those really fast chromatic runs leading up to the main motif. Lyrically I like the idea behind all of it, too; I don't find it nearly as corny as some people do, or as cheesy as the inspirational ballads they'd do in later years. One of my favorite DT sections ever is the beginning of part 2, with the creepy bass and piano, and James giving an awesome vocal performance. I really love the "I cannot see his face, but I can feel his spite" part, his voice is great. Lots of shred on this but I think it's a lovely epic that usually - not always, but usually - remains entertaining throughout.
#4. The Count of Tuscany
Beautiful. Sweet, beautiful music. One of DT's finest opening few minutes in an epic. Production is great. Lyrics aren't Shakespeare but they work for a song like this. Petrucci in rare form, from the solos to the riffs to the spacey section to the clean strumming at the end. Jordan does some really cool things, I like the synth part in the first half that just uses 2 notes. This song really has everything DT does well in the back half of their career, it's just a delight from start to finish, bursting with melody and creative ideas.
#3. A Change of Seasons
Incredible. What more can be said about ACOS? First time I heard The Crimson Sunset is one of those pivotal moments in my musical life. Still one of their best songs ever.
#2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
I personally do count this as one long song with 8 individual parts, and it's phenomenal in every way. Every member of the band has at least a few moments throughout this track that rank among their best stuff ever in this band. It's a brilliant work of art, and each musician is firing on all cylinders. It's only a hair away from #1.
#1. Octavarium
It does not get better than this. The nuggets referencing so much inspirational music and so many artists, the musical nuggets alone referencing the scale system and the rest of the album, the story about a man waking from a coma, the Continuum and the Pink Floyd homage, the excellent lyrics particularly in the Razor's Edge section, John Myung's best bass line ever, Jordan Rudess's best keyboard solo ever, I could go on and on and on. AMAZING.
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I think my ranking would be -
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
A Change of Seasons
In the Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory
The Count of Tuscany
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1. A Change of Seasons. So glad to finally see this live on the Images & Words tour.
2. Octavarium. Fantastic. Live version from SCORE is superior to the album version, and I was blessed to be there that night.
3. Illumination Theory. I love the composition on this, and frankly, it may be one of the best examples of the musical composition tying in with the lyrics in DT's catalogue.
4. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence. Magnificent. Probably worthy of being higher, but I just like those other 3 songs a little more.
5. In The Presence of Enemies. This is a fun song, but for me, the enjoyment is surface only. It doesn't strike me as having the same depth as the first four songs here (a trait shared by the rest of Systematic Chaos as well).
6. The Count of Tuscany. Big drop-off here. The least of these by a wide margin.
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I do not consider 6DOIT a mega-epic, but a suite of songs, and ITPOE is 2 songs.
Come at me. :biggrin:
C'mon Kev. I thought you got the memo on this a long time ago. :lol
1. SDOIT - Best DT epic ever.
2. ACOS - A very close 2nd
3. 8VM - Pretty solid epic
4. TCOT - A little on the corny side lyrically but still pretty cool
5. ITPOE - Really like Pt.1. Pt.2 is pretty good but gets a little weird. Overall still good.
6. IT - Well...I just don't wanna say :yeahright
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My ranking:
ACOS
SDOIT
ITPOE
IT
TCOT
8V
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I do not consider 6DOIT a mega-epic, but a suite of songs, and ITPOE is 2 songs.
Come at me. :biggrin:
You know what? I agree!
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Octavarium
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Count of Tuscany
A Change of Seasons
In The Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory
This has changed a lot for me over the years, but it's still a little tough to rank because I don't listen to any of them very often.
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Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence -- None of the other epics take you on such a journey as this. So many chills.
In The Presence of Enemies -- I know I'll get flack for this, but this again is quite the journey. Muscular and dark. The fictional themes don't bother me because I like fiction.
A Change of Seasons -- I don't think I've listened to this for five years or better, but I could probably still hum the entire song. Probably a nostalgic pick.
Octavarium -- Everything from the moog solo on is fantastic! Prior to that, it's pretty nice.
Illumination Theory -- A consistently interesting track when it's on but I don't crave it when it's not.
The Count of Tuscany -- The first bit up until James comes in is brilliant...then I zone out. MP's vocals on this track are... completely tragic (I toned this critique down, a lot, out of respect for the rest of the band.)
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The top 3 are not surprising to me. I can't help but wonder what this poll would look like if we included all songs that are 10 minutes or longer, which would obviously sweep in several more. Hmm... :justjen
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I will have to listen to Octavarium again. People seem to love it so much. It has been a while. I really love around the 13 minute mark I think it was.
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Octavarium
A Change of seasons
In the presence of enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination theory
Six degrees of inner turbulence
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Octavarium
A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Illumination Theory
The Count of Tuscany
In the Presence of Enemies
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Listening to Octavarium right now, can't recall the last time I listened to this epic. It has aged very well. So many elements I still catch that I never noticed before. This is both my favorite DT song and I also think it's their best song. It's also my #4 epic of all time.
Where do DT epics stand among other prog rock epics?
1. Yes - Close to the Edge
2. Yes - Gates of Delirium
3. Pink Floyd - Shine On You Crazy Diamond
4. DT - Octavarium
5. Pink Floyd - Echoes
6. DT - SDOIT
7. Transatlantic - All Of The Above
8. Transatlantic - The Whirlwind
9. Jethro Tull - Thick As A Brick
9a. ELP - Tarkus
10. DT - ACOS
10a. Yes - The Revealing Science of God
11. Rush - Cygnus X1 pt. 2
Special shout out to Pink Floyd - Dogs, Rush - 2112, Pat Metheny Group - The Way Up, and The Flower Kings - Stardust We Are
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Thanks for the reminder in another thread. To me, the ranking after 170 or so votes is not surprising. But I always wonder whether it would look different if rankings were taken into account, rather than a single vote for a favorite.
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Thanks for the reminder in another thread. To me, the ranking after 170 or so votes is not surprising. But I always wonder whether it would look different if rankings were taken into account, rather than a single vote for a favorite.
Well...there were 41 comments in this thread in which folks ranked the six songs given. This does not include a couple comments in which folks excluded SDOIT. Assigning six points for a first place ranking, five points for a second place ranking, etc., here's what you get:
1. Octavarium: 195 total points. Most common ranking was first place, and it got the most first place votes with 17. Also got one last place vote.
2. A Change of Seasons: 194 total points. Most common ranking was first place (15 votes). Only song to receive zero last place votes.
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: 160 total points. Most common ranking was second place. Received almost as many last place votes (7) as it did first place votes (8).
4. In the Presence of Enemies: 117 total points. Most common ranking was third place (10 votes). Received no first place votes.
5. The Count of Tuscany: 104 total points. Most common ranking was fourth and fifth place (received 11 votes at each spot). Received no first place votes.
6. Illumination Theory: 91 total points. Most common ranking was last place (14 votes). Received one first place and one second place vote.
So...ACOS and 8VM switch spots, but it's otherwise the same. Of course, this is less than 1/4 of the votes in the actual poll.
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Good to see I didn't forget to vote for ITPOE in this thread too. :tup
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A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Count of Tuscany
In the Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory
Octavarium
Probably one of the few that doesn't like Octavarium the song. It sounds disjointed, doesn't flow very well. I do like the Someone Like Him, Medicate, and Razors Edge Sections though. The song loses me on the Full Circle and Intervals sections, which in my opinion are very weak (lyrics are clever but I just don't see their point and musically don't do anything for me).
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A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
The Count of Tuscany
In the Presence of Enemies
Illumination Theory
Octavarium
Probably one of the few that doesn't like Octavarium the song. It sounds disjointed, doesn't flow very well. I do like the Someone Like Him, Medicate, and Razors Edge Sections though. The song loses me on the Full Circle and Intervals sections, which in my opinion are very weak (lyrics are clever but I just don't see their point and musically don't do anything for me).
My reasons are different, but in general I feel the same way about the song. It's dead last for me.
Here's my ranking:
ITPoE
TCoT
SDoIT
ACoS
IT
8VM
SDoIT, ACoS, IT can switch places on any given day. Depending on my mood :). The only epic I don't listen to on a regular basis is 8VM. Although every once in a while I get a hankering.
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ACoS > 8VM > SOIT >> ITPOE > TCoT>>>> IT
Love ACoS to death, top 3 song easily. Octavarium and SDOIT are also amazing although I don't listen to the latter much anymore since it's too long. ITPOE is slightly ruined by The Reckoning for me but I love the song too. TCoT has some pretty awful lyrics which brings it down a lot for me, and I'm generally pretty forgiving when it comes to lyrics but musically its phenomenal. IT has some part I really enjoy but I don't like it anywhere near as much as the rest of the epics. It feels really disjointed and the sections I like don't last very long.
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I’m one of those people that doesn’t consider SDOIT as one song...however for the sake of this list...
A Change of Seasons
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
Octavarium
Illumination Theory
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
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A Change of Seasons > Octavarium > The Count of Tuscany > Illumination Theory > Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence > In the Presence of Enemies
The first five are in my Top 10 Dream Theater songs, ITPOE is in my Top 20.
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Okay, why not?
1. A Change of Seasons
- easily
2. Octavarium
- though this track is a close runner-up, so it's not that easy
3. In the Presence of Enemies
- cool song, though a pretty large quality drop from Octavarium
(Quality drop)
4. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
- the separate parts work way better than the song as a whole for me
5. The Count of Tuscany
- I used to dislike this track a lot, but I like it better nowadays
(Quality gap)
6. Illumination Theory
- this is Dream Theater at their worst. Bloated, pointless lyrics, nothing memorable whatsoever about this one.
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In my opinion, ACOS and 8VM are in a class of their own, which is not a dig at the other songs but rather a sign of how great I feel those songs are. I would put the other songs on approximately the same level. SDOIT is a really difficult one to pin down because I find it really hard to listen to all 42 minutes at once, but I love the individual parts.
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Normally by the time I get to these things I can just find the guy with my list and quote it. Maybe add a thumbs up or something. Nobody got it this time around.
ACoS
ItPoE
6D
8V
And the rest
I've got no problem regarding Enemies as one song. Still very similar in tone, style, and theme, and they both begin and end at the same place. When Pink Floyd split Dogs over two tracks of an 8-Track nobody called it two songs, and I think there was a similar thought process here. Also, as craptacular as the Chaos in Motion DVD was, that rendition of Enemies is fantastic. Bosk rightly singled out the Live Scenes version of Seasons, and CiM does the same thing for Enemies.
Six Degrees is a collection of 8 songs. I've got no problem calling it a suite, just like 12 Step, but calling it a single song is simply daft.
8V is a fine piece of work, if perhaps a little overrated in my book.
Count and that other one are uninteresting and more than a little underwhelming. With DT epics you kind of expect everything to build up to something greater than the sum of the parts. That never happens with these two. Count just sounds like an overlong DT song, and while IT sticks the ending, nothing building up to it really mattered.
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1. A Change of Seasons - eays choice, my all time favorite DT-song
2. In the Presence of Enemies - fantastic intro and overall a song that display their technical abilities without being too much
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence - it doesn't feel like an epic but a collection of great songs
4. Octavarium - great song, great build-up but a little overrated
5. The Count of Toscany - great intro, great end. The rest isn't that good at all
6. Illumination Theory - the end is great but most of the times I don't make it that far into the song.
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A Change of Seasons
Octavarium
SDOIT
ITPOE
The Count of Toscany
Illumination Theory
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Reading is hard, for some reason I thought you vote your least favorite and then was shocked at the results :lol
Least favorite is: ItPoE
Most favorite is: ACOS
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I love all of them. Probably my least favorite is Six Degrees. And I really enjoy IT so much every time I listen to it. The live version especially.
It has everything. Rock, groovy, orchestral, great message and high energy (of course not the middle part.)
1. Octavarium
2-4 (tie). ACoS, ItPoE, IT
3. CoT
4. Six Degrees.
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6. Illumination Theory
- this is Dream Theater at their worst. Bloated, pointless lyrics, nothing memorable whatsoever about this one.
I agree for the most part. I've been ranting about this song for years and how much of a huge disappoint it has been to me. So, I basically just stopped listening to it. Skipped it every time on a random shuffle. Yesterday, I listened to it for the first time in years. I actually like the instrumental portion in the first 3:30 or so. I'll give it that. Too bad once the lyrics start, it's all downhill from there. A disappointing closer to a mostly disappointing album except for like 3 songs that I actually like and listen to on a regular basis. The Enemy Inside, The Looking Glass and Behind the Veil. :-\
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Related to this topic, a very cool 8 strings acoustic guitar arrangement for ACoS:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cnj1MfoVj-0&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR3hZU-yQX5F3Z4wBVvBQBNRwSFUQGDJ0s4bftVljlxcbgG1n7l5gO7U3TQ
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From less liked to favorite:
6. Illumination Theory
It's still a very solid song, but the other ones just blow it out of the water. Some of the sections feel disjointed, the lyrics are not as memorable, but it's still a great song and the best one of the album. Eren Basbug's orchestra segment is, for me, one of the most beautiful moments in a DT song.
5. The Count of Tuscanyyyyyyyyyeeeyyyyeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiyeeaeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
While it does have the worst lyrics of the entire list, the music is top notch. The guitar solos are incredible and it has the trademark DT sound.
4. In the Presence of Enemies
It's amazing, the lyrics are really interesting and the music tells the story along with them in a really great way. However I don't consider it as groundbreaking as...
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
This song is one of the landmarks of DT's discography. It does suffer from the same disjointedness of IT, and the song as a whole isn't as strong as each of its parts viewed individually; but the overarching concept of the song is really great, deciding to cover a topic instead of a single story.
2. A Change of Seasons
This song not only features The best lyrics MP ever wrote for DT, but some of the most interesting sections of their career. The first contact DT has ever had with a "Mega Epic", and it would be the best epic they've ever made were it not for
1. Octavarium
A love letter to 20 years of band history with a clear but clever overarching theme. Some of its movements would be standouts in DT's discography on their own, so it's no wonder it's one of my favorite Prog Metal songs ever made.
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6. Illumination Theory
- this is Dream Theater at their worst. Bloated, pointless lyrics, nothing memorable whatsoever about this one.
I agree for the most part. I've been ranting about this song for years and how much of a huge disappoint it has been to me. So, I basically just stopped listening to it.
To me, IT has two issues.
First, the mellow section. It's pointless. The couple minutes before it and after it are incredible.
While the beginning of the song is pretty fantastic, it's ending really lets this song down.
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My ranking:
1. The Count of Tuscany
2. A Change of Seasons
3. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
4. In The Presence of Enemies
5. Octavarium
6. Illumination Theory
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I disagree that SDOIT is such a distant 3rd, but no argument or surprise about those top 3. :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy
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1. Octavarium
2. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
3. The Count of Tuscany
4. Illumination Theory
5. In The Presence of Enemies
6. A Change Of Seasons
Easy.
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I disagree that SDOIT is such a distant 3rd, but no argument or surprise about those top 3. :hefdaddy :hefdaddy :hefdaddy
I've never really thought of it as a single entity. Dream Theater don't really treat it that way either. IIRC they haven't played the whole thing live from beginning to end since the album was released back in, what, 2002?
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I've never really thought of it as a single entity. Dream Theater don't really treat it that way either. IIRC they haven't played the whole thing live from beginning to end since the album was released back in, what, 2002?
2006 at RCMH (for Score). But let's be honest, it's a 40+ minute long song. With the exception of ACoS and that performance for Score, DT hasn't played *any* of their 20+ minute epics in full beyond the initial tour they appeared on. So for SDoIT, this shouldn't be surprising at all, especially given that the song is almost twice as long as their other epics. Only The Razor's Edge from 8v was performed during Schmedley Wilcox, the first 9 minutes of ItPoE on subsequent tours and there were times when only certain parts of ACoS were played - yet in none of these cases would they be considered individual songs; the same should be the case with SDoIT.
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Yeah, I agree with Scotty. Plus, as their catalog grew, it became more difficult to fit some of the longer epics into their setlist. I think the 2 live DVD's with SDOIT in it's entirety (Score & Live at Bucharest) are both really good performances. There could be others, I'm not 100% sure.
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You're entitled to your opinion I guess, but to me it's a bunch of different songs and the fact that it's divided up that way on the disc suggests that how the band sees it too, otherwise if it's considered a single piece, why wouldn't you release it as a single piece?
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You're entitled to your opinion I guess, but to me it's a bunch of different songs and the fact that it's divided up that way on the disc suggests that how the band sees it too, otherwise if it's considered a single piece, why wouldn't you release it as a single piece?
They did, on the SCORE CD/DVD. But on the original recording, they did it for indexing reasons, so people could skip to their favorite section if they so chose.
Everyone is free to their opinion as to how they look at it, but the band from the beginning regarded it as one piece with subsections, like ACOS.
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1. Octavarium
2. A Change Of Seasons
3. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
4. The Count Of Tuscany
5. In The Presence Of Enemies
6. Illumination Theory
1. Octavarium is more or less my all time favorite Dream Theater song as well as the best epic IMO. This epic just keeps moving and crescendos until the peak, "trapped inside..", and I think the finale is wonderful, I wish JP's guitar was mixed a little louder.
2. I was sleeping on ACOS for a long time, then didn't care for it when I first checked it out. Over time I grew to love it, it's much more of a proggy epic than Octavarium, technically speaking. I can see why some people think it's their best. Not a big fan of the production on this one, though. Brings it down a notch, I do prefer the LSFNY version over the studio (which is cool with Sherinian.)
3. Yea it's a suite, just like DSOTM is, but it's meant to be one piece played straight through so it counts as an epic. On the album, I see it as an album within an album (like a dream within a dream) I generally don't listen to the individual tracks when I want some Six Degrees. Love the melodies and upbeat atmosphere through the majority of the piece. I don't really have any negative opinions on it. I just think 8vm and ACOS are better because they are 'true' epics and I enjoy them more as such.
4. Always enjoyed this one, despite the lyrics. This epic is quite a ride, and has a bit of A Farewell To Kings/Hemispheres-era Rush vibe throughout. I'm not big on the chorus, but otherwise lots of fun, engaging sections. That ending is one of the best DT moments.
5. While I enjoy this one throughout, I think this epic benefits from being split in two as it is on the album. When put together, it feels too long, too many parts repeat. In context of the album, or even just sticking Ministry of Lost Souls in between, is much more palatable (and is a great 3 track album in and of itself.) On it's own, I just don't think it stacks up to the previous four epics. The darker, sinister vibe is cool, the epic is a major showcase of the band's chops in the context of a prog rock/metal piece, for sure. It just doesn't have that extra je ne sais quoi that is present on most other DT epics.
6. This one I don't like, much like the rest of the album IT appears on. To me, this is 3 or 4 song ideas mashed together. There is this one song going on throughout (the heavy riffy sections) then this atmospheric section comes in and it seems like it was pasted together, to say, "it's time for the ambient section", then the orchestral section, also doesn't really make sense why it appears here... Then we return to the heavy riffy song that was paused for a few minutes there, then I don't remember anything else after this point, other than the attempted climax/finale came off as very mechanical and cold sounding. This one has not grown on me at all. The Easter Egg after it is more enjoyable than all of DT12
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1. Octavarium
2. A Change Of Seasons
3. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
4. The Count Of Tuscany
5. In The Presence Of Enemies
6. Illumination Theory
Very close to my list. Switch 4 and 5 and that's what I have -
1. Octavarium
2. A Change Of Seasons
3. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
4. In The Presence Of Enemies
5. The Count Of Tuscany
6. Illumination Theory
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1. Octavarium
2. A Change Of Seasons
3. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
4. The Count Of Tuscany
5. In The Presence Of Enemies
6. Illumination Theory
Very close to my list. Switch 4 and 5 and that's what I have -
1. Octavarium
2. A Change Of Seasons
3. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
4. In The Presence Of Enemies
5. The Count Of Tuscany
6. Illumination Theory
They're really not that far apart in quality IMO. I just like The Count a little bit more.
The big drop off is IT.
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1. Octavarium
2. A Change Of Seasons
3. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
4. The Count Of Tuscany
5. In The Presence Of Enemies
6. Illumination Theory
Very close to my list. Switch 4 and 5 and that's what I have -
1. Octavarium
2. A Change Of Seasons
3. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence
4. In The Presence Of Enemies
5. The Count Of Tuscany
6. Illumination Theory
They're really not that far apart in quality IMO. I just like The Count a little bit more.
The big drop off is IT.
Agreed! IT isn't even close to the other 5 IMO
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You're entitled to your opinion I guess, but to me it's a bunch of different songs and the fact that it's divided up that way on the disc suggests that how the band sees it too, otherwise if it's considered a single piece, why wouldn't you release it as a single piece?
They did, on the SCORE CD/DVD. But on the original recording, they did it for indexing reasons, so people could skip to their favorite section if they so chose.
Everyone is free to their opinion as to how they look at it, but the band from the beginning regarded it as one piece with subsections, like ACOS.
Exactly. Here's MP's comments on the topic:
https://www.mikeportnoy.com/aboutmike/faq/answers/13.aspx#217
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Not only that, but the ending of each track blends in with the beginning of the next track. They don't just end or fade (well except at the end). That alone should be convincing enough that it's one song. Additionally, the Overture lays out the musical ground work for the rest of the song. You can hear similarities throughout it's entirety. From the beginning, I never doubted what the band intended it to be.
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6) In the Presence of Enemies
Might be arguable if this is an epic, to me it is and I really like it, but it should never ever been split up. It takes away the momentum completely and by the time I've digged throught Systematic Chaos to arrive in part 2, I'm lost totally. It is dark, written is not that good but I'll handle that, just if they started SC with Forsaken and combined both parts at the end of the album.
5) Six Degrees of inner Turbulence
Althought being number five is way to low for this epic, they others can't be taking away from there spot as well. The concept is beautiful and somehow, I do not give it as much time as it deserves. Goodnight Kiss os without a doubt the best part of this epic for me. I really like it and consider it to be an outstanding epic, the very best of the album and should give it more time in the near future.
4) A Change of Seasons
The gap between the Presence and Change of Seasons is way bigger than that between Change of Seasons and Octavarium. I love Change of Seasons from start to finish, it is a wunderfull track, well written and in perfect harmony. To me, the reason why it is not higher in the scale is the missing of a grand final, like the Count of Tuscany and Illumination Theory. What I do like however are the final chords, which brings us back to the beginning, rounding the circle. Masterpiece and an outstanding example of what Dream Theater is.
3) Octavarium
Honestly, if it was'nt for the Daily Dougs reaction, this epic would'nt make it to the top three. Octavarium is one of the few vinyls I still haven't bought and therefore I do not listen to it as much as the others. But Doug's totally got me into it. I've checked his Youtube reaction many times already and the more that's become clearified of this song, the higher the ranking. What a wonderful piece and the way it is build op, is unbelievable.
2) Illumination Theory
Many times I see this one is barely making it out of the trashcan on this forum, mostly due to a poor production. To me however the Illumination Theory is next to the very best track they ever made. The questions of life, the sections build up, the beautiful riffs, Myung with some splended bass-parts and especially the intersection in the middle, calm and peaceful... so complete. And then the last section with LaBrie shining and I can listen to it one hundred times, it'll never bore me.
1) The Count of Tuscany
Maybe it'll be a less popular opinion but to me The Count of Tuscany is Dream Theater at there total best. Rather I'll drive my car, ride my bike, spin a vinyl at home or introduce my favorite band to friend, this track is getting most of my time. Right from the start it grabs a hold on me and will not let go untill LaBrie is giving his verbal solo in the final. And no voice on earth could be more made for this track than his. The strange story of Petrucci actually encoutered this count in Tuscany is even making it more mysterious and magical to me.
And I truly hope the epic on DT15 will clame a position high in my ranking.
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All the epics are my top songs from DT. I am beyond excited today. No way I can work!!
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You'd only have had to look down to page 3 of the DT threads:
Yea but who does that?? :D
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A Change of Seasons is the only one I really love front to back. It’s almost perfect (production holds it back a little).
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Not only that, but the ending of each track blends in with the beginning of the next track. They don't just end or fade (well except at the end). That alone should be convincing enough that it's one song. Additionally, the Overture lays out the musical ground work for the rest of the song. You can hear similarities throughout it's entirety. From the beginning, I never doubted what the band intended it to be.
That's true for parts of SFAM and TA, as well, but they're still considered individual songs.
Personally, I consider SDOIT more of a suite or other piece of music that incorporates multiple movements, rather than a single "song". If Disc 2 had been released separately, I think it might be considered a concept album in it's own right. But I am aware of the band's (or at least MP's) position on the topic.
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A Change of Seasons is the only one I really love front to back. It’s almost perfect (production holds it back a little).
Hmmm...I don't agree with the highlighted. However, Doug Helvering (a music theorist and classical composer who does reaction videos on YouTube) did a reaction video for ACOS last Friday, and one of the things he commented on was how high-pitched the drums -- particularly the snare -- sounded.
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A Change of Seasons is the only one I really love front to back. It’s almost perfect (production holds it back a little).
Hmmm...I don't agree with the highlighted. However, Doug Helvering (a music theorist and classical composer who does reaction videos on YouTube) did a reaction video for ACOS last Friday, and one of the things he commented on was how high-pitched the drums -- particularly the snare -- sounded.
It is mostly the drums that bother me, yeah. But not enough to really affect my enjoyment of the song. And I thought it was funny that he noted that too.
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Delete. Confused, thought it was a different thread.
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So , I never liked IR much, in part because that album was a bit of a let down for me after ADToE, which I loved. I gave it a listen today while demo'ing a brick wall, and maybe because it helped my pound that thing to dust in the sweltering heat, but I really enjoyed it. It doesn't move much in my rankings, because the top 3 are so high, and the bottom 1 is so low, but it leaps TCoT for the time being.
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Octavarium - Maybe DT's best song. Great lyrics and a ton of depth in the songwriting. All the sections go/flow together. All band members turn in great performances
IT - No idea where hate for this song comes from. Everyone hates the string section for some reason. It's epic/uplifting/philosophical and musically coherent. If people didn't love it then whatever but the fact it's at the bottom of the poll is baffling
ACOS - The classic. Probably the most authentically emotional. Great sections. Not quite the most coherent though. It's good but not great in that sense
6DOIT - Aged well for me. Not a huge fan of the third person lyrics in some sections but over time I've appreciated them more. Good musical sections/no junk in this song
Count/ITPOE - Both songs with great ideas but are ultimately deeply flawed. The long instrumental in ITPOE Pt. 2 after the huge build up (second servants of the fallen section) is so disappointed. Just a riff-o-rama after lyrically setting up the climactic battle of the story. As for Count I just can't get down for the lyrics. Too silly for the material.
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So , I never liked IR much
Illumination Reverie?
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So , I never liked IR much
Illumination Reverie?
Illumination Rudess - it's just IT but Jordan plays every part with a dozen different instruments and devices.
-Marc.
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01. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (I have ZERO interest in listening to the isolated parts... always disappointing when they include some of them in the setlist).
02. Octavarium (amazing song on meh album)
03. A Change of Seasons (a pity to be in an insignificant EP).
04. Illumination Theory (I find most complaints meaningless).
05. The County of Tuscany (dreadful lyrics. I don't listen very much as it's on a ghastly record).
06. In The Presence of Enemy (please Dark Master, don't piss me off).
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01. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (I have ZERO interest in listening to the isolated parts... always disappointing when they include some of them in the setlist).
02. Octavarium (amazing song on meh album)
03. A Change of Seasons (a pity to be in an insignificant EP).
04. Illumination Theory (I find most complaints meaningless).
05. The County of Tuscany (dreadful lyrics. I don't listen very much as it's on a ghastly record).
06. In The Presence of Enemy (please Dark Master, don't piss me off).
I guess you really don't care enough for "The Count Of Tuscany" and "In The Presence Of Enemies" to get their titles right. ;) :lol
I will say their lyrics are a bit 🧀 and cringey at times, but for me that's part of the DT charm.
-Marc.
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The County of Tuscany is a great title if Weird Al did a DT parody.
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01. Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence (I have ZERO interest in listening to the isolated parts... always disappointing when they include some of them in the setlist).
02. Octavarium (amazing song on meh album)
03. A Change of Seasons (a pity to be in an insignificant EP).
04. Illumination Theory (I find most complaints meaningless).
05. The County of Tuscany (dreadful lyrics. I don't listen very much as it's on a ghastly record).
06. In The Presence of Enemy (please Dark Master, don't piss me off).
I guess you really don't care enough for "The Count Of Tuscany" and "In The Presence Of Enemies" to get their titles right. ;) :lol
:facepalm: :lol
But yes, I don't listen to these songs anymore.
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1. A Change of Seasons is my favorite by some margin. An amazing song that, to this day, manages to grab me from beginning to end.
2. Octavarium is pretty great. However, while the clear homages and tips of the hat to the prog greats are a fun concept (as is the whole idea behind the song/album), they also prevent this song from reaching the pantheon of absolute DT greatness in my book ;D
3./4. Illumination Theory / Count of Tuscany: can't quite decide how to rank those, either could be third of fourth. Count of Tuscany has moments of musical bliss (that intro!), Illumination Theory doesn't quite reach those heights, but it has plenty of cool riffs and sections. I normally don't care about lyrics too much. If anything, I see them as potentially enhancing the experience if they are really good. Rarely do I consider them as actively detracting from the experience. I wouldn't say they actually do for Count of Tuscany, but they come close :biggrin: I get that they are tongue-in-cheek. But they do bother me a bit, especially with how they clash with the mood of the music at times...and the ending is the worst offender ("Wait a minute man!"), as it verges on parody (which can be fun in certain contexts, but is not what I'm looking for in DT music...)
5. Six Degrees: I don't love this one...which is part of the reason I don't rank the album as high as most fans do. Some great parts (LOVE Solitary Shell), but I struggle to consider it a "single" epic.
6. In the Presence of Enemies: Part 1 is great - one of my favorite things on Systematic Chaos. Part 2 doesn't quite do it for me.
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A Change of Seasons
Octavarium
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence
In the Presence of Enemies
The Count of Tuscany
Illumination Theory
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I just gave A Change Of Seasons another go after about 7 years - and I don't mind it or hate it but I don't love it. I just can't hear what people who love it hear.
It's got NOTHING on Octavarium and Six Degrees in my view.
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I just gave A Change Of Seasons another go after about 7 years - and I don't mind it or hate it but I don't love it. I just can't hear what people who love it hear.
It's got NOTHING on Octavarium and Six Degrees in my view.
For a lot of us, it was our “first love” for DT epics. And it’s the only one that has the classic 90s DT sound. So if that’s what you like best…ACOS is the winner.
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1.Octavarium
2.A Change of Seasons
3.Six degree of inner turbulence
4.Illumination theory
5.The Count of Tuscany
6.In the presence of enemies
I like all of these songs except for ITPOE :-\
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1. Octavarium, IT, ITPOE, The Count Of Tuscany
2. 6 Degrees, ACOS
I can't do any better than that.
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I just gave A Change Of Seasons another go after about 7 years - and I don't mind it or hate it but I don't love it. I just can't hear what people who love it hear.
It's got NOTHING on Octavarium and Six Degrees in my view.
Putting aside that we all like what we like, here are my thoughts on ACOS v. SDOIT and 8VM:
SDOIT has the "is it a song or is it a suite of songs" thing. Despite the band's statements, I have a hard time viewing it as a song. I also find most of Goodnight Kiss to be a bit of a slog until it gets going toward the end.
As for 8VM, I've written many times what I think of the first 3 minutes and however many seconds. Once the band kicks in, it's good, but most of Medicate and Someone Like Him are a bit snoozy. I always find myself waiting for the synth solo at the 12-something minute mark. After that, it's as good as anything they've done, but 12 minutes is a long time to have to wait.
For me, ACOS has NO low points. Its tone and tempo rise and fall perfectly over its 20+ minute length. There are so many epic moments in the song. JP's tasty guitar tone in the Darkest of Winters, the dueling solos. The airhorn section. The epic 3/4 conclusion. AND...AND...JM's bass is mostly audible.
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I just gave A Change Of Seasons another go after about 7 years - and I don't mind it or hate it but I don't love it. I just can't hear what people who love it hear.
It's got NOTHING on Octavarium and Six Degrees in my view.
Putting aside that we all like what we like, here are my thoughts on ACOS v. SDOIT and 8VM:
SDOIT has the "is it a song or is it a suite of songs" thing. Despite the band's statements, I have a hard time viewing it as a song. I also find most of Goodnight Kiss to be a bit of a slog until it gets going toward the end.
As for 8VM, I've written many times what I think of the first 3 minutes and however many seconds. Once the band kicks in, it's good, but most of Medicate and Someone Like Him are a bit snoozy. I always find myself waiting for the synth solo at the 12-something minute mark. After that, it's as good as anything they've done, but 12 minutes is a long time to have to wait.
For me, ACOS has NO low points. Its tone and tempo rise and fall perfectly over its 20+ minute length. There are so many epic moments in the song. JP's tasty guitar tone in the Darkest of Winters, the dueling solos. The airhorn section. The epic 3/4 conclusion. AND...AND...JM's bass is mostly audible.
All of this.
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I just gave A Change Of Seasons another go after about 7 years - and I don't mind it or hate it but I don't love it. I just can't hear what people who love it hear.
It's got NOTHING on Octavarium and Six Degrees in my view.
You’re not factoring in the lyrics or subject matter at all, where ACOS destroys the others. AUTHENTIC emotion.
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I really enjoy ACOS, but the ending feels anti-climatic. I am ready to be done when it gets there.
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I just gave A Change Of Seasons another go after about 7 years - and I don't mind it or hate it but I don't love it. I just can't hear what people who love it hear.
It's got NOTHING on Octavarium and Six Degrees in my view.
You’re not factoring in the lyrics or subject matter at all, where ACOS destroys the others. AUTHENTIC emotion.
I disagree. "Gabba gabba hey hey my my generation's home again" are by far the most emotional and poignant lyrics in the bands whole catalog.
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Taking everything into consideration (lyrics, meaning, time changes, emotion, music, etc) is why ACOS is probably my favorite DT song (epic or not) of all time! :hefdaddy
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Let's see...
1. Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence - An epic ride, and one that I take a half dozen times a year. As someone stated earlier, DT in a nutshell. Great from start to finish. (This is Dream Theater's 'Supper's Ready'.)
2. Octavarium - It's like a great meal, but with FOUR salad courses. The salad is good, but it takes a while to get through it all before the entree, which is killer! One of the best finishes to any epic. When the French horn comes in, it's just beautiful!
3. A Change Of Season - The LSFNY version specifically. The studio version is just OK, but live, its next level stuff. (I heard the live version first, which is probably why I'm partial to it.)
4. Illumination Theory - Unlike most, I like the classical interlude. It could have been blended a little better with the surrounding sections, but its a great piece of music. Like SDOIT, its sees regular play.
5. The Count of Tuscany - I just like this tune. The guitar intro, the rocking section, the 'Close To The Edge' section, the closing, all of it! It's all good, and makes a great epic.
6. In The Presence Of Enemies - I like this tune overall. The first 8-9 minutes is great as a stand alone. (Maybe it should have been.) Part 2 has many great moments, especially when the 'Patrick Moraz' part kicks in at the 13:12 mark. The very end is a bit anti-climatic for an epic. It sounds a bit tacked on.
Any good epic requires a big finish, needs to make those neck hairs stand up, and get those goose bumps going. The truly great ones can bring on the tears. Most of these check all of those boxes, at least for me.
DanLore
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3. A Change Of Season - The LSFNY version specifically. The studio version is just OK, but live, its next level stuff. (I heard the live version first, which is probably why I'm partial to it.)
Interesting perspective.
I had actually heard the 3/4/93 live version first. I acquired it from a tape trader via the *Prodigy service in late 1993 (I still have the original cassette). It's probably 25% different than what was released on the EP, and I had actually kind of forgotten about the song when a friend got the EP and played the song for me. I still view the studio version as the "definitive" version, but the LSFNY version kicks all kinds of ass.