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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: adamack on February 27, 2019, 09:12:05 PM
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Over the years I've gotten into conversations with people online who say they don't like JLB because he uses too much vibrato and is too theatrical. I always immediately ask them out of curiosity if they are Maiden fans, and many are. I don't get it?
Isn't Bruce Dickinson VERY theatrical, and uses a ton of vibrato? I'm not a Maiden fan, but every song I've heard sounds like he's in a rock opera about to take down some kind of king or mythical beast. I don't mean to bash the guy, just explaining the vibe I get.
I understand that they use different kinds of vibrato. James' can be a lot more range-y and slow (Far From Heaven, Vacant) and...maybe jerky? Bruce's is more tight, fast, and focused (from what I've heard).
Does anyone have any ideas about this?
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They don't like LaBrie's voice. As Fleece Johnson would say, it's just that simple. *Herrick shrugs*
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They don't like LaBrie's voice. As Fleece Johnson would say, it's just that simple. *Herrick shrugs*
Ha, yeah true. The thing that prompted this is that one guy I know said that he doesn't like James because he "uses vibrato". Like, not overuses it - just uses it generally. But he loves Bruce. ???
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They don't like LaBrie's voice. As Fleece Johnson would say, it's just that simple. *Herrick shrugs*
Ha, yeah true. The thing that prompted this is that one guy I know said that he doesn't like James because he "uses vibrato". Like, not overuses it - just uses it generally. But he loves Bruce. ???
They're just trying to rationalize why they don't like LaBrie. He's got a very unique voice. I like him and Dickonson and I love both bands but LaBrie was a fucking god among mang back in the day.
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Well I have never liked Dickenson’s voice. And I don’t care for the vocal melodies of IM either. Those 2 things have kept me from really getting into them, because their music is pretty good. I love JLB vibrato - uses it more live and it’s great!
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Wasn't there a vocal expert who posted in here a year or two ago reasoning that LaBrie's vibrato is produced 'artificially', and that's why it's often disliked?
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Dickinson > JLB > Geddy Lee
All 3 were pretty much acquired tastes that you needed to get used to, imho.
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They don't like LaBrie's voice. As Fleece Johnson would say, it's just that simple. *Herrick shrugs*
Ha, yeah true. The thing that prompted this is that one guy I know said that he doesn't like James because he "uses vibrato". Like, not overuses it - just uses it generally. But he loves Bruce. ???
They're just trying to rationalize why they don't like LaBrie. He's got a very unique voice. I like him and Dickonson and I love both bands but LaBrie was a fucking god among mang back in the day.
Hell yeah! I was watching a few fan-captured live performances from 1993 recently, and the man was just effortless. At times he sounded even better live than on the album. A bit more grit to his voice during some parts.
I really wish I had gotten to see him live back then like many lucky people on DTF. He was still really good when I saw him around 2006 and 2007 though!
Well I have never liked Dickenson’s voice. And I don’t care for the vocal melodies of IM either. Those 2 things have kept me from really getting into them, because their music is pretty good. I love JLB vibrato - uses it more live and it’s great!
Same here. I respect Bruce as an icon and huge talent but he's just never been my cup of tea. James' vibrato is awesome - I especially love it during ballads or softer parts. It's got this untamed quality sometimes, when he really lets it go.
Wasn't there a vocal expert who posted in here a year or two ago reasoning that LaBrie's vibrato is produced 'artificially', and that's why it's often disliked?
By artificial, was he/she alluding to a post-recording in studio technique? Or did they just mean artificial by the standards of improper technique?
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I don't think its the fact people are Maiden fans. I think people just connect with a voice, or they don't.
I've always connected with Bruce. Same with JLB. Geddy Lee took me a bit. It's just the tonal quality, their style, and how that hits your ear.
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I don't think its the fact people are Maiden fans. I think people just connect with a voice, or they don't.
I've always connected with Bruce. Same with JLB. Geddy Lee took me a bit. It's just the tonal quality, their style, and how that hits your ear.
Yeah very good points. I think the tonal quality aspect you mentioned is a huge one with JLB. He has a very unique vocal tone, so that will just naturally cause many people to love it, and many to hate it.
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JLB is sharp. Not quite as sharp as a guy like Michael Sweet, but sharp enough. Add to that his annunciation not always being the clearest, I can absolutely see why his voice wouldn't connect with some people. But its very personal to the listener. For me personally, JLB has this quality to his voice on certain songs (generally stuff that is moody) that just hits a sweet spot for me. Stuff like Voices, At Wit's End, or even Trial of Tears. And that really appeals to me so highly that it overcomes some of the other qualities to his voice that don't hit me as well.
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By artificial, was he/she alluding to a post-recording in studio technique? Or did they just mean artificial by the standards of improper technique?
Improper technique, if I remember correctly.
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Ah, here you go.
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=52342.msg2433938#msg2433938 (https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=52342.msg2433938#msg2433938)
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Bear in mind that he also said Bruce Dickinson has 'artificial vibrato' as well. I would take it with a grain of salt, most vocal coaches make up half the stuff they say, and hide behind their degrees in opera singing :lol
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By artificial, was he/she alluding to a post-recording in studio technique? Or did they just mean artificial by the standards of improper technique?
Improper technique, if I remember correctly.
He kind of implies that it is "improper" technique, but it really isn't. James manufactures his vibrato mechanically, and there are a variety of ways to do so. If done correctly, none of those techniques damage the voice or are "improper" by any objective standard.
He says "Vibrato should never be a 'conscious choice'. It is a natural byproduct of healthy singing." That isn't really true. It can happen naturally without the singer really trying to do that. But that is generally only the case when one is singing in classical style (think true opera singers). Singers using a belting technique (the vast majority of pop, rock, and metal singers) or mixed voice will generally not get that type of natural, involuntary vibrato. That's just the physiology of the human body. Virtually every popular artist you have heard that uses vibrato, LaBrie and Dickinson included, consciously manufacture their vibrato. And, unfortunately, there are some voice coaches out there that will say that that is "wrong." But remember--just because someone happens to be a voice coach doesn't mean that their opinion is correct.
Bringing this back more to the subject, James has two things going for him that can alienate listeners. His timbre is very unique. And his vibrato, especially in a live setting, can be very extreme. The first issue is just his physiology and how that manifests in his voice. People like it or they don't. It just is what it is. The second is his choice of technique. It isn't objectively bad or good, although I think a lot of people will say they prefer a less extreme vibrato than what he sometimes does. His is definitely more extreme than Bruce's, so I get why somebody could like Maiden and not DT. It's just preferences.
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bosk, I think what Zach was saying was that James's vibrato *used* to be natural, and that some time in the early 2000s he switched to a more "manufactured" vibrato, more based on pitch adjustment than based on vocal chord relaxation.
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You could be right, but I don't think so. If I'm not misunderstanding, I think Zach is just one of those who falls into the category of feeling that any manufactured vibrato is incorrect technique. I mean, he even says "Vibrato should never be a 'conscious choice." And from watching quite a few of his videos, he has strong opinions about a lot of things, which he presents as very objective, but which are not. For example, he is also squarely in the camp that there is no "right" way to do screaming or growling and refuses to concede that it is a valid artistic choice that indeed can be done in a way that is "proper" and does not damage the voice.
I don't disagree with what you posted as on opinion on the evolution of James' vocal technique. I just don't think that that is necessarily what Zach was arguing.
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You could be right, but I don't think so. If I'm not misunderstanding, I think Zach is just one of those who falls into the category of feeling that any manufactured vibrato is incorrect technique. I mean, he even says "Vibrato should never be a 'conscious choice."
I think coming from his angle as a vocal coach, it's a fair statement to make. He probably deals with a lot of people who *want* a vibrato but aren't aware that there is a natural way of doing it (by relaxing your vocal chords) and so they try the manufactured version by trying to quickly modulating the pitch. Since the natural one is much more pleasing to the ear, AND is more sustainable, he essentially goes the hard line and says "don't do the manufactured one".
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*Shrug* Bruce Dickinson is my favorite singer and James is my second. And probably Iron Maiden is my favorite band and DT is my second :D
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Dickinson > JLB > Geddy Lee
All 3 were pretty much acquired tastes that you needed to get used to, imho.
I would add John Arch to this list.
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bosk, I think what Zach was saying was that James's vibrato *used* to be natural, and that some time in the early 2000s he switched to a more "manufactured" vibrato, more based on pitch adjustment than based on vocal chord relaxation.
By manufactured, are you talking about the slow and wide vibrato he does live? I'll admit it's something that confused a little after I saw Zach video a while back, because it seems to only be a thing he does live. If you listen to the recent albums his vibrato is there but it's faster, tighter and more subtle. It might still be manufactured (I have no idea) but it sounds much more natural.