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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: MirrorMask on December 22, 2018, 01:26:18 AM
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So, to not derail further the discussion in the new album thread, and just to discuss what I defined the symbol of all the contrasting opinions on DT, what's your exact opinion of The Ministry of Lost Souls? the poll options say it all, tell us in detail what's your opinion on the song!
I also pick up this from the other thread:
Sometimes I wonder if the instrumental section to TMOLS was written because the band didn't want to have another ballad in the album so close to Repentance. (Edit: It seems Repentance was written last, but maybe it was already considered? Whathever just a thought)
Literally, the instrumental section feels so disconnected to the rest of the song, if you showed it to someone who hasn't heard the song, there's no way that person would've known it was actually a balladesque song in disguise.
The song up until the instrumental begins is roughly 6:30 minutes, way more than most ballads, and in this time it grows up pretty greatly up to its own climax, you could have a radio edit and cut it right there and it would have been a full song to me.
I don't know if it was done to balance more the album, but you hit the nail on the head for me about the issue with the song - a ballad that grows and grows in intensity, and climaxes at the "Do you remember me this time, even in death we gave you life"... there could have been there a more melodic solo and the ending reprise but no, there "had" to be a solo section that completely derails the song coming back to it only 5 minute later.
BTW, I made a not exactly radio edit, it's 8:30 minutes long, and it flows just fine for me completely removing the solo section.
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I thought I dislike the song as a whole and even think this song could be the most boring song DT has ever created. But when you put it like that I think I like the solo section. As a whole, still boring.
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I only like The outro but the option is not there.. :xbones
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I only like The outro but the option is not there.. :xbones
Fixed it just for you in true Christmas spirit :yarr
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I like all of the individual parts, but to be totally honest if there is one DT song that outstays its welcome it’s this one. It just doesn’t do enough to justify its nearly 15 minute length for me.
Still, I picked the first option ;D
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After listening again I can say that I enjoy it for the most part.. some sections overstay their welcome and the instrumental break is a bit out of place but not overly detracting. 10-12 minutes would’ve been perfect, I may actually try and cut a shorter version of it
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Well. As a whole I think it is a little bit too long, but there is nothing about it I actually dislike.
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I love the whole song, it's a top 20 DT track for me. I really enjoy the contrast between the different parts of the song. The instrumental section is my favourite part, though that's not a particularly surprising thing for me ;D
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Funny thing is that for a while after getting the album I didn't realize the solo was so great and skipped the song because I thought it was just a balad. It was probably months later that it clicked with me and now I never skip it.
I really like the solo section, one of my favorites. I do agree that it doesn't seem to fit, but I find that to be the case with alot of their music. It's one of the primary reasons I like DT. Their songs aren't boring because of this. Once you get to know these type of songs they blend a bit better. I actually think now that the transition is just fine.
The outro blends so well into ITPoE. If I'm just listening to TMotLS I have a hard time NOT letting it go to the next track.
If the rest of the song was a track on it's own, then I wouldn't like it much. But that's not the point. It is part of the song! I can actually get through the song up to the solo section because I know it's coming. I can think of quite a few songs (not just DT) that I like simply because of a section of it. There is something to be said for letting the song build and set a mood. Some of the hardest sections of music are preceded by slow passages and that gives the heavy part more impact.
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I like the main part and solo, but not the outro, why is that option unavailable
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One of the best DT songs, I like everything in it.
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It's perfect as it is.
Touching. Exciting. Complex.
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It's perfect as it is.
Touching. Exciting. Complex.
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Good song overall, but one I rarely listen to. It has some amazing moments, but it is so long and drags so much that it feels like work to get through the whole thing.
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I don't revisit this song as much as I'd like to, but these days, I love it. I think it's one of the best songs on Systematic Chaos, possibly my favorite (as of 2018). It's aged much better than the rest of the album to me, and although I didn't enjoy it much early on, it was definitely a grower. I even enjoy the shreddy instrumental part now.
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It's perfect as it is.
Touching. Exciting. Complex.
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I'm glad and positively surprised that the vast majority said that they like the song, I figured from reading comments here and there that it was much more disliked!
I went and relistened to it yesterday, it's such a somber and melanchonic ballad. The beginning is grandiose, and works well in compilations (for example try to play As I Am and have the ending of the song going directly into this), James sings very well the verses and we have a little nice touch from JP doing backing vocals (We know Jordan can sing as well, I doubt it but I'd love for the new album if there's a mini Jordan backup vocal spot just like JP does in this song), and then the chorus is so haunting and mesmerizing.
The post chorus is the climax of the song in a sense - it continues from the buildup of the chorus, and then reaches that beautiful "Do you remember me this time, even in death I gave you life" part... chilling! then of course comes the (in?)famous long solo section, the reprise at the end is nice because of that little moment of only piano and vocals before kicking back in with the final chorus and then going into the long and melodic solo.
Brilliant, brilliant stuff, and it's a nice contrast to all the heavier, "in your face" moments of Systematic Chaos such as Constant Motion and The Dark Eternal Night.
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I like it for the most part, but I wish they had taken a different approach for the middle of the song. It would’ve been nice to have an instrumental passage that retains the mood of the first half of the song. That would have been quite a different approach for them and made this song stand out a bit more. It’s basically Sacrificed Sons over again and neither are very memorable because of their bridge sections imo. Still, it’s one of two songs from SC I haven’t seen live so I wouldn’t mind it in a setlist for that reason.
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I enjoy it too, never said it was bad
But there indeed appears to be an agreement of the song overstaying, and the reason for that is the theory that I still have: the pacing. It isn't a bad song by any means and the instrumental isn't bad, I just insist that at least for me, it feels disconnected.
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I like it for the most part, but I wish they had taken a different approach for the middle of the song. It would’ve been nice to have an instrumental passage that retains the mood of the first half of the song. That would have been quite a different approach for them and made this song stand out a bit more. It’s basically Sacrificed Sons over again and neither are very memorable because of their bridge sections imo.
It was a problem of those times...see also Endless Sacrifice, "We're telling you about the struggled of a long distance relationship, it weights heavy on both HEY HOW ABOUT A CIRCUS BREAK AND WE GET BACK TO THE COUPLE IN 5 MINUTES?"... that song, the two you mentioned, go completely out of the song and get back to it only 5 minutes later.
This is an issue for example I don't have with Metropolis - I'm sure many will disagree, but I think that as long as it is, the solo section of Metropolis stays in tune with the song and never goes off the rails. Or Final Tragedy's ending, which does not seem a different song than what came after. Luckily they corrected this in later album, the long passages are still there but they don't feel like a jam copied and pasted into the song.
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The extensive middle instrumental section is a huge problem when trying to show someone that song, I'm usually like "yes this is a song about distant relationships" and the person hears it, says it's cool, but then the instrumental kicks in and 3 minutes later it's like "why is it taking so long?"
But still, I don't have the issue I have with TMOLS when hearing Endless or Sacrificed sons, but I get the main point.
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Whatever the instrumental section tries to symbolize and however you interpret it, I think it can be argued that it's introduced much more elegantly and the flow is significantly smoother in comparison to Sacrificed songs or Endless sacrifice . It also contains some truly memorable solos and unisons as well.
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Whatever the instrumental section tries to symbolize and however you interpret it, I think it can be argued that it's introduced much more elegantly and the flow is significantly smoother in comparison to Sacrificed songs or Endless sacrifice . It also contains some truly memorable solos and unisons as well.
I agree, M.
I love the song, and I find it very well done. My only gripe is that the ending drags a bit. But that's a small beef.
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I love the whole thing except for the part between when JLB cuts out and the main JP solo (the palm-muted riffs and keyboard stuff, basically). That doesn't do anything for me. The solo->unison->back to vocals part is great though, and I love the vocal sections & outro. One of my favorite DT songs in spite of the parts I don't like.
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My only gripe is how it starts with an volume-to-11 ear smash. I really don't like any songs that start this way but this one hits way harder for some reason.
My own edit has the first 1:02 removed completely so it starts gently and then builds up.
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My only gripe is how it starts with an volume-to-11 ear smash. I really don't like any songs that start this way but this one hits way harder for some reason.
Yeah, it's annoying on the CD. Not a problem with the HD Tracks master!
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It kind of hits you right over the head the second Prophets of war ends. I always thought that was kind of cool.
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It kind of hits you right over the head the second Prophets of war ends. I always thought that was kind of cool.
Of course it's cool! as I said try to have As I Am right before this song, see how cool it plays out :coolio
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This song, along with its album cohort In The Presence of Enemies immediately found a spot on my all time DT top 10 list and will probably always be there. Sure the instrumental piece doesn't need to be there, but it is awesome, and is quintessential just like Sacrificed Sons, Endless Sacrifice and Metropolis.
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It kind of hits you right over the head the second Prophets of war ends. I always thought that was kind of cool.
Of course it's cool! as I said try to have As I Am right before this song, see how cool it plays out :coolio
Its sounds awesome played after About To Crash(Reprise) as well.
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I love every aspect of this song. Probably top 20 for me. I'd be tickled pink if I ever got to see it live.
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Always liked this song, especially the outro solo. The instrumental section is awesome but is totally self-indulgent and unnecessary to anyone who isn’t a fan of prog self indulgence. Luckily most DT fans are so it’s cool but if you played the song to anyone else they would literally be like wtf is the point of this?
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Bottom 5-10 DT song for me.
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Just listening to this for the first time in probably 5 or 6 years.
First off, it's much better than I remember, and is now solidly on my extremely short list of "songs that just barely redeem SC"
Second, I didn't find the instrumental section out of place at all. I almost had to replay it just so I could try and figure out what everyone was talking about. But it feels to me like around the 6 min mark, the energy starts ramping up, making the transition into the instrumental section a totally natural progression.
Pretty cool tune. Still hate PoW and the second half of ITPOE. :angel:
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Just listened to it for the first time in over 9 years. That kind of says it all right there. But anyway, I don't dislike it. I don't love it, but just like it.
There's better songs on SC and there are worse songs. Ministry falls somewhere in the middle for me.
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The Ministry of Lost Souls is a beautiful song and one of my favorites. When I first heard it I didn't care for the instrumental section and even edited my own version without it.
But that was then. With time I have come to appreciate the whole song.
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try to play As I Am and have the ending of the song going directly into this
It sounds great indeed!..
I really like the solo section, one of my favorites. I do agree that it doesn't seem to fit, but I find that to be the case with alot of their music. It's one of the primary reasons I like DT. Their songs aren't boring because of this. Once you get to know these type of songs they blend a bit better. I actually think now that the transition is just fine.
The outro blends so well into ITPoE. If I'm just listening to TMotLS I have a hard time NOT letting it go to the next track.
If the rest of the song was a track on it's own, then I wouldn't like it much. But that's not the point. It is part of the song! I can actually get through the song up to the solo section because I know it's coming. I can think of quite a few songs (not just DT) that I like simply because of a section of it. There is something to be said for letting the song build and set a mood. Some of the hardest sections of music are preceded by slow passages and that gives the heavy part more impact.
100% agreed with this, especially the bolded..
Literally, the instrumental section feels so disconnected to the rest of the song, if you showed it to someone who hasn't heard the song, there's no way that person would've known it was actually a balladesque song in disguise.
I think that's kind of the whole point of doing it, don't you think?.. They're expert musicians, is not that they didn't know how to put that section in one song and randomly put it in there just for the sake of it.. As you mentioned, maybe they did it because there already was a long ballad in the album, and didn't wanted to do another one (even when they have very different structures and a very different vibe as well)..
But, as I've said many times, having that type of element within a song where the instrumental section seems to come from nowhere or at least it's very unexpected (thus why it feels like is from another song, which logically speaking makes no sense) is something DT did in other songs too.. Beyond this Life has it, Endless Sacrifice has it and Sacrificed Sons has it.. And, IMO, these four songs as a whole (and particularly the break-moments) are awesome just like they are, and mostly because they are like that..
Thing is none of these instrumental sections you named feel so disconnected to the song as TMOLS, you could have as well named BAI and Metropolis and that's clearly not the case.
Actually, no.. BAI and Met pt. 1 are very different in that aspect, but I get that this kind of things are mainly subjetive (we're talking about how a song feels after all)..
But yeah, I don't think any of these songs has their sections "disconnected".. They are all very well connected actually..
Example of sections in a song that I feel disconected?: BMUBMD's unison, beginning of Bridges in the Sky, and a few on Illumination Theory (especially the transition into the orchestral part).. A thing that I guess was due to the lack of Portnoy, but they did have take care of this minimal issue in TA, and rest of the songs in ADToE and DT12..
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Interesting to see just how subjective this all is... To me, the unison section of BMUBMD sounds completely natural. I couldn't imagine the song without it.
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Overall, I like the song. Not one of their best, but pretty good.
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I voted for liking most of the song except the solo section, although I wouldn't say I quite dislike it. I think it could have been trimmed or made differently to fit the song better, to make it feel more unified.
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Even though it's not a popular opinion, to me, Ministry Of Lost Souls feels like a ballad like Wither (but stylistically more like the "Someone Like Him" section of Octavarium) misplaced with an instrumental section that sounds like leftover riffs (and probably is) from In The Presence Of Enemies (part 2 specifically).
It feels like they give the AFGE progression far too much attention but I don't understand why. It probably felt "epic" to them at the time but just doesn't have the compositional strength to hold up 6 minutes of music, let alone 15 :lol
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I needed an "I love the song" option!
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Hated the song the first time I listened to it. Didn't listen to it for a long time after that. Then one day, I gave SC a spin from beginning to end and it came on. I actually liked it a lot better this time. Still not a favorite, but it has definitely grown on me. Solo section is superb.
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Even though it's not a popular opinion, to me, Ministry Of Lost Souls feels like a ballad like Wither misplaced with an instrumental section that sounds like leftover riffs
Unfortunately, that's a very popular opinion actually..
Hated the song the first time I listened to it.
How do you get to "hate" a song?.. :huh:
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I really like the main section, and the outro's fine. The middle section just doesn't gel with the rest of the song imo. It's super jarring and not in a good Opethian way.
Now, the Symphonic Theater of Dreams version of it on the other hand, is like Top Tier Dream Theater. It makes the middle section work really well and turns it into one of the coolest moments in any DT song imo. Only downside is that the gorgeous lyrics get dropped from it. It convinced me that the song doesn't truly shine in the metal genre, and that it works best in an orchestral setting.
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How do you get to "hate" a song?.. :huh:
How do you get to love a song?
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How do you get to "hate" a song?.. :huh:
How do you get to love a song?
Kind of agree here..I hate a lot of songs...I love a lot of songs, although I don’t hate any DT, just don’t understand the question. ???
To the OP...I truly like this from start to finish. To me, prog is prog and the artists truly wrote it the way they saw fit as I can relate to. It’s definitely not one of my “go to” pieces, but would not skip it either. JMO.
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How do you get to "hate" a song?.. :huh:
How do you get to love a song?
Kind of agree here..I hate a lot of songs...I love a lot of songs, although I don’t hate any DT, just don’t understand the question. ???
To the OP...I truly like this from start to finish. To me, prog is prog and the artists truly wrote it the way they saw fit as I can relate to. It’s definitely not one of my “go to” pieces, but would not skip it either. JMO.
That's fair, I guess I misspoke when I said I hated it. I just disliked it to the point where I didn't have any desire to listen to it again.
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How do you get to "hate" a song?.. :huh:
How do you get to love a song?
I like it so much that I love it.. (also, please read below)
That's fair, I guess I misspoke when I said I hated it. I just disliked it to the point where I didn't have any desire to listen to it again.
Exactly.. That's my point.. When you dislike that much a certain song (with DT no one should really say that before at least 4 or 5 listens, IMO)... then why keep listening to it?..
You only could hate something if that something is present in your live on the first place.. In this case, if you listen to that song.. And while maybe that could be the case with pop songs that you just cannot avoid listening here and there, that's certainly not the case with a DT song, or a prog metal song in general... well, not even is that the case with any metal song..
On the other hand, if you like it so much, then you'll keep listening to it, and that's when you start to love it..
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I think in music using "love" and "hate" has just become common terms to express appreciation or dislike. No one really means "hate" in the musical equivalent of what you feel for the one that with a hit and run killed a family member or for Bin Laden.
But yeah, some overplayed pop songs can be definitively very annoying :lol
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You forgot the "I like the main part, I like the solo, I dislike the outro" option :hat
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It kind of hits you right over the head the second Prophets of war ends. I always thought that was kind of cool.
Of course it's cool! as I said try to have As I Am right before this song, see how cool it plays out :coolio
That's how the band did it when I saw them in DC in '08. I made up a CDr of the set list from that night. And, indeed, the segue is perfect.
My only gripe is how it starts with an volume-to-11 ear smash. I really don't like any songs that start this way but this one hits way harder for some reason.
My own edit has the first 1:02 removed completely so it starts gently and then builds up.
I've always liked the intro, but I tried it this way after your post, and....I gotta admit, I like it.
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No one really means "hate" in the musical equivalent of what you feel for the one that with a hit and run killed a family member or for Bin Laden.
Of course not (though I wouldn't say "no one" either)..
By definition, you can hate something or someone.. So, since we're talking about something here (a song), is absolutely possible that you could feel hatred for it.. But I just find that to be absurd for the reasons I mentioned above..
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I dislike the main part. I like the solo section. I dislike the outro.
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For all I know, this guy could be one of the members here. If you can make it past some of the antics, this guy tries to break down the outro section by science.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjkdGwHe5qg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjkdGwHe5qg)
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I just listened to it. I haven't listened to this one a ton so... I like the song. It isn't in my top 20. I appreciate the length, the instrumental. It is very DT. All the things I love about DT and took a bit to get used to. Doing their own thing, being unpredictable and JLB's voice. I love the epics and this is long like one, but doesn't feel like one to me.
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This is definitely one of the songs that i've skipped over, over the years. In fact, it's not even in my fone music player.
I may have to give this one another try. It's been a LOOOONG time since i heard this.
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My favorite song of SC as of right now, so yeah, love all of it.