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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: adamack on December 04, 2018, 03:56:05 PM
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I recently saw a performance of Flying Colors playing Repentance live, with MP singing here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b06bhnHZs4w&lc=z23itl04opecyvdwh04t1aokglunb0r5zmfjcc1cgrntbk0h00410). He's obviously auto-tuned pretty heavily, but because Mike isn't a steady singer, I actually enjoyed this more than if he was pitching all over the place.
So it made me think - how would you guys/gals feel if DT used live pitch correction for James, during only songs he struggles with? Not as much as MP was using - just a very light amount to keep some notes from straying too far.
I do not mean bring negativity here, but James' pitch issues and questionable improv melodies are pretty much the only reason I don't go to see them live every opportunity I get. I realize many people are fine with his vocals and that is awesome. But personally, my ear is OCD when it comes to pitch issues and I wish I could just look past it
I am a huge supporter of bands using programs like Melodyne to fix up vocals in post-recording for live DVD's. But I'm not too sure how James would sound if the pitch correction was on the live feed, as there is far less control with something like that. Thoughts?
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They do.
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I don't really care, tbh.
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I’m one of the lucky ones I guess as I’ve never come out of any DT show with any complaints about JLB’s voice. Quite the opposite in fact, I’m always blown away at how well he still sings 20+ year old songs. Not saying he is the greatest live frontman of all time or anything but he has never detracted from the show at all for me. I know everyone can’t be wrong and he must have some off nights but I’ve never seen one in person and I take no notice of cellphone recordings on YouTube. Not keen on his voice on OIALT or CIM but not sure if that’s his fault or a poor quality recording as he sounds fine to me on the other more polished live albums.
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As Adami said, yeah, they already autotune live. There's a lot of automation going on since they started playing all songs to click.
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James' pitch issues and questionable improv melodies are pretty much the only reason I don't go to see them live every opportunity I get.
So you don't see the band live and base your decision not to do so on what...videos from YouTube?
I’m one of the lucky ones I guess as I’ve never come out of any DT show with any complaints about JLB’s voice. Quite the opposite in fact, I’m always blown away at how well he still sings 20+ year old songs.
Same here. In fact, going back at least 10 years, the only real rough spot I can recall was when they did "Don't Look Past Me" on the I&W&B tour (a song which they wisely dropped from the set list shortly thereafter).
Seems to me that, rather than skip actual live shows and make judgments based on videos made with low quality phone cameras, one should attend the live shows and skip the videos.
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As Adami said, yeah, they already autotune live. There's a lot of automation going on since they started playing all songs to click.
Ah very interesting, I didn't know this. I'll have to check out some more recent performances on YouTube. Do you happen to know around when they started playing all songs to click?
I’m one of the lucky ones I guess as I’ve never come out of any DT show with any complaints about JLB’s voice. Quite the opposite in fact, I’m always blown away at how well he still sings 20+ year old songs. Not saying he is the greatest live frontman of all time or anything but he has never detracted from the show at all for me. I know everyone can’t be wrong and he must have some off nights but I’ve never seen one in person and I take no notice of cellphone recordings on YouTube. Not keen on his voice on OIALT or CIM but not sure if that’s his fault or a poor quality recording as he sounds fine to me on the other more polished live albums.
I've seen them twice, and I too remember James being great both times. I believe I saw them in 2006 and in 2008 or so. The songs I've seen that weren't so great were clips online of more recent shows. As you said, it may just be off-nights or maybe only certain songs that are out of his range these days. His lower register and his soft vocals are still fantastic too, on pretty much any song that uses those.
I recently saw a video of a live performance of TTT from 93 and it made me want to kill father time. He sounded immaculate. Also, I've always loved him in the live version of ACoS from LSFNY.
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As Adami said, yeah, they already autotune live. There's a lot of automation going on since they started playing all songs to click.
Ah very interesting, I didn't know this. I'll have to check out some more recent performances on YouTube. Do you happen to know around when they started playing all songs to click?
That is a very simple question to answer. MP refuses to play to click, MM exclusively plays to click.
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James' pitch issues and questionable improv melodies are pretty much the only reason I don't go to see them live every opportunity I get.
So you don't see the band live and base your decision not to do so on what...videos from YouTube?
I’m one of the lucky ones I guess as I’ve never come out of any DT show with any complaints about JLB’s voice. Quite the opposite in fact, I’m always blown away at how well he still sings 20+ year old songs.
Same here. In fact, going back at least 10 years, the only real rough spot I can recall was when they did "Don't Look Past Me" on the I&W&B tour (a song which they wisely dropped from the set list shortly thereafter).
Seems to me that, rather than skip actual live shows and make judgments based on videos made with low quality phone cameras, one should attend the live shows and skip the videos.
James was awesome during DLPM here. I guess we got lucky
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As Adami said, yeah, they already autotune live. There's a lot of automation going on since they started playing all songs to click.
Ah very interesting, I didn't know this. I'll have to check out some more recent performances on YouTube. Do you happen to know around when they started playing all songs to click?
That is a very simple question to answer. MP refuses to play to click, MM exclusively plays to click.
So you're saying, it was MMs idea for DT to play to a click?
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I didn't think the ADTOE tour was to a click - I thought the DT12 tour was the first.
Anyway, what sort of idiot judges whether or not to see a band based on youtube clips? Oh, I'm not going to see these guys coz they're all wobbly and out of focus and they sound like a wasp in a tin can!
Have you any idea how small/cheap the microphone in a cell-phone is? You think you can take that expertly-mixed wall of noise that assaults your senses at a concert and represent it on a phone? Hell, even the best sound engineers struggle to record and mix live albums properly. OF COURSE they sound awful on those youtube clips - EVERY SINGLE BAND sounds awful on youtube clips. Except those pop-posers who are miming anyway.
We all get older. Our vocal cords become less elastic. Re-write the vocal melodies if you have to, drop the song a key or two. The vast majority of the audience won't notice or care.
Someone once told me (and I don't know if it's true) that David Gilmour has a bank of auto-tune technology so that in the unlikely event that he does play a wrong note, the computers will replace it with the correct note. I can't see the point - might as well sit at home and put the CD on, it's a lot cheaper and you don't have to battle traffic.
Vocal auto-tune - to quote Groucho Marx, whatever it is, I'm against it. But I understand that this technology is so prevalent that if bands want to use it, it their business. I get that DT want to present their music in a perfect light, but these days I'd much prefer seeing a band who aren't afraid to improvise a little - most audiences love it when bands f*ck up. I'll still go see DT every chance I get, but they're no longer the "must see" band they were.
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I don't think James uses autotune live. On live recordings and in studio, for sure, but not live.
And the click track is not because Mike Mangini requires it, but because they've invested a lot of energy into the production where playing to a click makes it easier to perform for the video and lighting engineer. The Astonishing particularly, due to the complexity of the video displays and all that.
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I don't think James uses autotune live. On live recordings and in studio, for sure, but not live.
And the click track is not because Mike Mangini requires it, but because they've invested a lot of energy into the production where playing to a click makes it easier to perform for the video and lighting engineer. The Astonishing particularly, due to the complexity of the video displays and all that.
I actually remember that not a long time ago JLB, in an interview, said exactly this, that he uses it in studio and in post production of live dvds but never for live concerts.
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I should clarify.
When I said "they do" I had misunderstood the question to be about post-production. I wasn't saying they use it live in the moment. I have no idea about that. But based on the performances I've seen, if they're using it, they're doing a bad job.
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I don't think James uses autotune live. On live recordings and in studio, for sure, but not live.
And the click track is not because Mike Mangini requires it, but because they've invested a lot of energy into the production where playing to a click makes it easier to perform for the video and lighting engineer. The Astonishing particularly, due to the complexity of the video displays and all that.
Thank you. This is what I was going to say, seems like a lot of incorrect information is floating around in this thread. James (or should we say the FOH engineer) does not seem to use autotune on James' live vocal. In post production for live releases, of course they touch up his vocals to varying degrees. Also, like you said, the band is on record saying they asked MM if they could try playing to a click in order for the performances and production of the tour to be tighter. MM does not "exclusively" play to a click nor did he bring that to the band as some sort of requirement.
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I should also clarify that I didn't imply he brought click tracks as a "requirement". I think it's more of a "I am perfectly comfortable playing songs to click", and I suspect DT had been wanting to do that all along but MP didn't like it.
I retract my statement about the live autotuning. I thought they did in places, but maybe not.
Regarding the "who would decide based on YT videos whether to go or not?" question, like it or not, but I think quite a few people do, and why shouldn't they? If you are on the fence about shelling out the money for a band you aren't sure about seeing, checking out previous live recordings is a natural thing to do.
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I should also clarify that I didn't imply he brought click tracks as a "requirement". I think it's more of a "I am perfectly comfortable playing songs to click", and I suspect DT had been wanting to do that all along but MP didn't like it.
I think that's probably spot on.
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Yes, glad we got on track about the use of click and autotune live. To summarize:
Live autotune: I am almost certain they do NOT use it.
Live click track: Used, for reasons mikeyd23 and Noxon mentioned in their posts.
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I think people are ridiculously critical of James. Part of it I get. He's recorded some amazing vocals over the years, and the expectation is that he'll reproduce that live with some semblance of regularity. But that's not the kind of live singer he is. He is his own toughest critic (from what I understand), and I think fans need to realize that he's going to have his good nights and his bad nights.
I have seen Dream Theater 13 times (first being 8/9/98 at Jones Beach on the FII tour) and the last being the Images, Words & Beyond tour a year ago. I'd say he struggled in probably three of those shows, most notably, the last one with I&W. Which again, I fully expected going in, given the material. I would NOT be in support of James using any sort of pitch correction in a live setting. That makes it less live. I can just put on the CD if I want it perfect. I go to a concert to hear it performed LIVE, and I respect the hell out of JLB who goes out, takes care of his body, and gives his all each night on difficult songs to sing. If he happens to be off that night, I sing a little louder. :)
Sure, I went away a little bummed I happened to catch a really off night on the IW&B tour last year. I knew that was likely going to be the case going in, and I can't lie about how I felt afterward. But that shit was hard to sing when the man was in his 20s, much less his 50s. If JLB gave no effort, that would be one thing. But JLB works his ass off to prepare for shows and take care of his voice. And I'd rather hear James sing truly live in concert, then see him resort to technology to try and smooth over his issues. He works at it. That's good enough for me, and I'll always respect him for it. :yarr
In the studio, that's a different beast. And they can do whatever they need to do to make sure the songs are the best they can be.
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James' pitch issues and questionable improv melodies are pretty much the only reason I don't go to see them live every opportunity I get.
So you don't see the band live and base your decision not to do so on what...videos from YouTube?
I’m one of the lucky ones I guess as I’ve never come out of any DT show with any complaints about JLB’s voice. Quite the opposite in fact, I’m always blown away at how well he still sings 20+ year old songs.
Same here. In fact, going back at least 10 years, the only real rough spot I can recall was when they did "Don't Look Past Me" on the I&W&B tour (a song which they wisely dropped from the set list shortly thereafter).
Seems to me that, rather than skip actual live shows and make judgments based on videos made with low quality phone cameras, one should attend the live shows and skip the videos.
James was awesome during DLPM here. I guess we got lucky
Well...it's not a very good song to begin with, so I'm not sure how lucky that is.
Also, how many nights did they play DLPM? Setlist.fm shows it in the set for 13 shows (through 11/12/17 show in Toronto), but I thought they had ditched it after only 3-4 shows (I saw the second show in the tour in LA).
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I didn't think the ADTOE tour was to a click - I thought the DT12 tour was the first.
Anyway, what sort of idiot judges whether or not to see a band based on youtube clips? Oh, I'm not going to see these guys coz they're all wobbly and out of focus and they sound like a wasp in a tin can!
Have you any idea how small/cheap the microphone in a cell-phone is? You think you can take that expertly-mixed wall of noise that assaults your senses at a concert and represent it on a phone? Hell, even the best sound engineers struggle to record and mix live albums properly. OF COURSE they sound awful on those youtube clips - EVERY SINGLE BAND sounds awful on youtube clips. Except those pop-posers who are miming anyway.
First off, I wasn't talking about cell phone footage. A lot of the more recent footage I've seen where James sounded off-key was things like Waken, which was filmed in a more professional manner, with multiple camera angles and decent (not great, but decent) audio. To give an example, 17:10-17:30 of this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0fPY9PPB2E&t=1033s) sums it up pretty well. I realize those notes in Metropolis are extremely high, and he just can't hit them during every concert anymore, which is very understandable. My post wasn't intending to bash him, just to see how people would feel about some slight pitch correction to help with any notes that his age/wear will no longer let him consistently hit.
And second, I'm not sure what video quality has to do with being able to recognize singing out of pitch. If I was criticizing the sound of DT's live mix based on cheap Youtube cell phone videos then yes, that is extremely idiotic. But my post was just about James' pitch issues, which anyone can hear from any quality of footage.
I am in the camp who things James pretty much IS DT. He is, and always will be, the best singer for the band. His voice is extremely unique, sounds amazing on every studio release, and has so much versatility. So my intention wasn't to be negative.
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I think people are ridiculously critical of James. Part of it I get. He's recorded some amazing vocals over the years, and the expectation is that he'll reproduce that live with some semblance of regularity. But that's not the kind of live singer he is. He is his own toughest critic (from what I understand), and I think fans need to realize that he's going to have his good nights and his bad nights.
I have seen Dream Theater 13 times (first being 8/9/98 at Jones Beach on the FII tour) and the last being the Images, Words & Beyond tour a year ago. I'd say he struggled in probably three of those shows, most notably, the last one with I&W. Which again, I fully expected going in, given the material. I would NOT be in support of James using any sort of pitch correction in a live setting. That makes it less live. I can just put on the CD if I want it perfect. I go to a concert to hear it performed LIVE, and I respect the hell out of JLB who goes out, takes care of his body, and gives his all each night on difficult songs to sing. If he happens to be off that night, I sing a little louder. :)
Sure, I went away a little bummed I happened to catch a really off night on the IW&B tour last year. I knew that was likely going to be the case going in, and I can't lie about how I felt afterward. But that shit was hard to sing when the man was in his 20s, much less his 50s. If JLB gave no effort, that would be one thing. But JLB works his ass off to prepare for shows and take care of his voice. And I'd rather hear James sing truly live in concert, then see him resort to technology to try and smooth over his issues. He works at it. That's good enough for me, and I'll always respect him for it. :yarr
In the studio, that's a different beast. And they can do whatever they need to do to make sure the songs are the best they can be.
I think I am a victim to what you said in the first paragraph. I was watching LSFNY recently, and James was on fire! Not only his vocals, but just his overall stage presence. I wish those days could return, but the degradation of the voice and one's physical capabilities are a very real thing, so I always need to remind myself.
Thanks for the input and viewpoint on my original question. Really good way to look at things. I must admit, I didn't realize how passionate James still was about giving his best performance every night. I wondered if he was just mailing it in some nights, but it seem that isn't the case.
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I didn't think the ADTOE tour was to a click - I thought the DT12 tour was the first.
Anyway, what sort of idiot judges whether or not to see a band based on youtube clips? Oh, I'm not going to see these guys coz they're all wobbly and out of focus and they sound like a wasp in a tin can!
Have you any idea how small/cheap the microphone in a cell-phone is? You think you can take that expertly-mixed wall of noise that assaults your senses at a concert and represent it on a phone? Hell, even the best sound engineers struggle to record and mix live albums properly. OF COURSE they sound awful on those youtube clips - EVERY SINGLE BAND sounds awful on youtube clips. Except those pop-posers who are miming anyway.
First off, I wasn't talking about cell phone footage. A lot of the more recent footage I've seen where James sounded off-key was things like Waken, which was filmed in a more professional manner, with multiple camera angles and decent (not great, but decent) audio. To give an example, 17:10-17:30 of this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0fPY9PPB2E&t=1033s) sums it up pretty well. I realize those notes in Metropolis are extremely high, and he just can't hit them during every concert anymore, which is very understandable. My post wasn't intending to bash him, just to see how people would feel about some slight pitch correction to help with any notes that his age/wear will no longer let him consistently hit.
And second, I'm not sure what video quality has to do with being able to recognize singing out of pitch. If I was criticizing the sound of DT's live mix based on cheap Youtube cell phone videos then yes, that is extremely idiotic. But my post was just about James' pitch issues, which anyone can hear from any quality of footage.
I am in the camp who things James pretty much IS DT. He is, and always will be, the best singer for the band. His voice is extremely unique, sounds amazing on every studio release, and has so much versatility. So my intention wasn't to be negative.
James was sick that day
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I agree on some people being extremely critical of James to the point of being completely delusional.
I'd recommend people just check Zach's live vocal analysis video, which, in my opinion, are a great piece of work.
He's a professional vocal coach and literally makes a living of analyzing voices, so he's got experience to back what he's saying.
Either way, I think it's ok, I mean, studio corrections are not such a bad thing, after all, it's a release to be heard as best as possible with the highest quality possible.
And no, he totally does not use live pitch correction.
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I would be against live pitch correction and overdubbed vocals on DVDs without coming out and saying some spots have been overdubbed for a valid reason. I don't mind post-production pitch correction. So I don't mind when DT use it. For instance, Score is one of JLB's finest live performances, and it's almost certainly been pitch corrected, not overdubbed like people claim, though I wouldn't swear on it - everything is possible. I think MP would come out and say that though, since he already shared what was overdubbed on Score (JP's guitar problem), Budokan (As I Am, some other stuff), Live Scenes (backing vocals), LATM (the whole dang thing)...
Another reason why I don't mind this is because all bands correct their DVDs to a point, we just don't know it because DT have a stronger bootleg culture than most other bands smaller than Iron Maiden and Metallica. One of my fave DVDs in recent years has been pitch corrected to death and most likely overdubbed in places and I don't blame them - a special performance costs a lot of money to produce and a lot of time to put together, and then a human vocalist can just have one bad day performing extraordinarily difficult music, and it all goes down into legend as "wow he really can't sing live".
From what I've heard on videos, father time has really caught up with James and he has some terrible performances, and he also has some good ones. But if they got Russell Allen or Ross Jennings to record their next DVD, there would still be autotune in there - our ears demand it and bands heed the demand.
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For reference, this was a comment JLB made on his forum in 2010
Hey All,
Let’s get something straight. I do not use auto tune live. I have in the studio and post live recordings. This recording from Tokyo and any other live videos on youtube has not been auto tuned. So to those who don’t believe it, sorry to bust your bubble but you are absolutely wrong. This and all the others are exactly as they went down.
Rock on,
James.
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For reference, this was a comment JLB made on his forum in 2010
Hey All,
Let’s get something straight. I do not use auto tune live. I have in the studio and post live recordings. This recording from Tokyo and any other live videos on youtube has not been auto tuned. So to those who don’t believe it, sorry to bust your bubble but you are absolutely wrong. This and all the others are exactly as they went down.
Rock on,
James.
Well there you go. From the man himself.
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Score was not pitch corrected either. There was some overdubbing, but very minimal, as confirmed both by the band and simply by comparison with bootlegs.
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Score was not pitch corrected either. There was some overdubbing, but very minimal, as confirmed both by the band and simply by comparison with bootlegs.
Are you sure? A few bootlegs sometimes pop up on Youtube that sound a little rougher than the finished DVD. I know you guys who were there listened to the bootlegs and compared and all but that was a long time ago.
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I highly doubt they use live autotune - that's such a recipe for disaster. The computer has to guess what the right note is, if the algorithm gets it wrong then it will sound awful.
Auto-tune in post production for DVDs is almost a certainty. I don't really see anything wrong with that. Same with overdubbing - bands have been overdubbing live CDs since forever. Thin Lizzy's Live and Dangerous has overdubs all over the shop.
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I highly doubt they use live autotune - that's such a recipe for disaster. The computer has to guess what the right note is, if the algorithm gets it wrong then it will sound awful.
That's not true. Since they're playing to a click, they can create a midi based autotune that is programmed with every vocal note ahead of time.
It'd be a good amount of work, but they could do it. No guessing involved. James would just have no room for error in his delivery.
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Rather than any autotuning, I think they should just be wiser with their set choices as their singer gets older. There's no shame in focusing on songs within his current comfortable range.
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Rather than any autotuning, I think they should just be wiser with their set choices as their singer gets older. There's no shame in focusing on songs within his current comfortable range.
I agree with this. I don't exactly understand how live autotune would work - some people say it would work well, others think it'd be a disaster... but either way I think it would probably take away the live feel of the show. I think they should focus on what he's comfortable with, but I don't think that means that have to avoid all older songs with high notes. Just limit them, and maybe for some, rework the melodies a little bit.
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I highly doubt they use live autotune - that's such a recipe for disaster. The computer has to guess what the right note is, if the algorithm gets it wrong then it will sound awful.
That's not true. Since they're playing to a click, they can create a midi based autotune that is programmed with every vocal note ahead of time.
It'd be a good amount of work, but they could do it. No guessing involved. James would just have no room for error in his delivery.
It could still sound very strange depending on how out JLB's source vocals are. You can still end up with all sorts of artifacts and strange noises. Not worth the risk.
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Score was not pitch corrected either. There was some overdubbing, but very minimal, as confirmed both by the band and simply by comparison with bootlegs.
This is so cool to hear. I thought James was amazing on Score, but I always thought there was pitch correction done in the mixing process. Do you know if LSfNY was altered in any way? I would guess no, since that was shot during a time when it was probably a bit less common to pitch correct for a live release. But I never knew for sure
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I’m one of the lucky ones I guess as I’ve never come out of any DT show with any complaints about JLB’s voice. Quite the opposite in fact, I’m always blown away at how well he still sings 20+ year old songs. Not saying he is the greatest live frontman of all time or anything but he has never detracted from the show at all for me. I know everyone can’t be wrong and he must have some off nights but I’ve never seen one in person and I take no notice of cellphone recordings on YouTube. Not keen on his voice on OIALT or CIM but not sure if that’s his fault or a poor quality recording as he sounds fine to me on the other more polished live albums.
+1000
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Score was not pitch corrected either. There was some overdubbing, but very minimal, as confirmed both by the band and simply by comparison with bootlegs.
Are you sure? A few bootlegs sometimes pop up on Youtube that sound a little rougher than the finished DVD. I know you guys who were there listened to the bootlegs and compared and all but that was a long time ago.
Noxon at one point shared some segments of Score that are commonly cited for this, with the bootleg panned to one ear, the official DVD panned to the other, and some processing to make them run at exactly the same speed. It's definitely the same recording, with only a couple of short bits overdubbed.
In fact, if you listen to Score enough, you'll eventually kind of start to notice the overdubs. It is quite noticeable when they cut in. And they're pretty brief. Honestly you could probably count on two hands the number of words overdubbed throughout Score.
The main reason Score sounds so different on the DVD compared to from a bootleg when you A/B compare them is simply the mixing and mastering; on the bootleg, you've got a pretty poor quality recording that's being blown out and doesn't capture remotely what it actually sounded like to the people at the show on the night. The recording makes LaBrie sound shrill, thin, and screechy.
Listen to the DVD, with its proper mixing and mastering, and it's much better; full, powerful, present, etc. Closer to how he sounded at the show, to the people who were actually there. Though with a few short overdubs thrown in there too, because it's a DVD and generally it's common practise to make DVDs sound perfect. Not to throw shade on Budokan, but that DVD could probably have used a little overdubbing(waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall).
I’m one of the lucky ones I guess as I’ve never come out of any DT show with any complaints about JLB’s voice. Quite the opposite in fact, I’m always blown away at how well he still sings 20+ year old songs. Not saying he is the greatest live frontman of all time or anything but he has never detracted from the show at all for me. I know everyone can’t be wrong and he must have some off nights but I’ve never seen one in person and I take no notice of cellphone recordings on YouTube. Not keen on his voice on OIALT or CIM but not sure if that’s his fault or a poor quality recording as he sounds fine to me on the other more polished live albums.
Y'know, it's funny... This reminds me of something my cousin told me; he's been seeing DT live since the '80s, and what he told me is that actually, LaBrie sounds much better live now than he did in the '90s.
Sure, on recordings, his stuff in the '90s sounds mind-blowing, and tops the more recent stuff, but actually in person? Apparently he's tons better now.
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^That.
And not related to James, but I did hear that there was some whahíbrido pickingant added to Score in post-production. I don't really hear it, so I'm not sure.
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And not related to James, but I did hear that there was some whahíbrido pickingant added to Score in post-production. I don't really hear it, so I'm not sure.
Don't hear it meself and yet whahibrido pickingant is vey noticeable.
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I’m one of the lucky ones I guess as I’ve never come out of any DT show with any complaints about JLB’s voice. Quite the opposite in fact, I’m always blown away at how well he still sings 20+ year old songs. Not saying he is the greatest live frontman of all time or anything but he has never detracted from the show at all for me. I know everyone can’t be wrong and he must have some off nights but I’ve never seen one in person and I take no notice of cellphone recordings on YouTube. Not keen on his voice on OIALT or CIM but not sure if that’s his fault or a poor quality recording as he sounds fine to me on the other more polished live albums.
+1000
+1001
James sounded awesome when I saw DT in Nov 2017. I have perfect pitch and I assure you - he never missed a note.
I'd prefer if he doesn't use pitch correction though. A lot of different factors can go into why a performer makes a mistake at any given moment. Unlike the modern internet culture, I can easily forgive anyone for making mistakes when performing.
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And not related to James, but I did hear that there was some whahíbrido pickingant added to Score in post-production. I don't really hear it, so I'm not sure.
Don't hear it meself and yet whahibrido pickingant is vey noticeable.
:rollin
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James sounded awesome when I saw DT in Nov 2017. I have perfect pitch and I assure you - he never missed a note.
Which show did you go to?
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I'm not much of a fan of jlb much these days . But I think people are unfair to him. Its not 1992 anymore.
Yeah hes lost a lot but it's not a total vocal blow out on the same levem as Brian Wilson 1964 comapred to 1980 onwards for example
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I'm not much of a fan of jlb much these days . But I think people are unfair to him. Its not 1992 anymore.
Yeah hes lost a lot but it's not a total vocal blow out the like of a Brian Wilson etc.
I think a huge issue is that JP doesn't seem to really know (with exceptions) how to best write for JLBs voice. JLB sounds awesome on his solo stuff, because he and Matt know how to make him shine. JP either hears JLBs voice differently in his head, or just writes for something else and tells JLB to sing it. Either way, JLB doesn't shine as much on a lot of the more recent DT, and in my opinion, it's because the vocals aren't great for his voice.
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Someone once told me (and I don't know if it's true) that David Gilmour has a bank of auto-tune technology so that in the unlikely event that he does play a wrong note, the computers will replace it with the correct note. I can't see the point - might as well sit at home and put the CD on, it's a lot cheaper and you don't have to battle traffic.
I don't think DG has that. I've seen many, many live DG youtube videos and if he misses a note you hear it. Now for his official live releases his playing is cleaned up, sometimes a lot ie. original Comfortably Numb solo in PULSE
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I'm not much of a fan of jlb much these days . But I think people are unfair to him. Its not 1992 anymore.
Yeah hes lost a lot but it's not a total vocal blow out the like of a Brian Wilson etc.
I think a huge issue is that JP doesn't seem to really know (with exceptions) how to best write for JLBs voice. JLB sounds awesome on his solo stuff, because he and Matt know how to make him shine. JP either hears JLBs voice differently in his head, or just writes for something else and tells JLB to sing it. Either way, JLB doesn't shine as much on a lot of the more recent DT, and in my opinion, it's because the vocals aren't great for his voice.
I'm gonna throw out a hot take here: JP doesn't really know how to write vocal melodies that are both compelling and sustainable for singers in general, not just JLB. They wrote a load of absolutely ridiculous melodies for IAW and then by pure chance found a singer who could perform all that in a way that was cool and interesting. When JLB had his accident and his voice changed, the well of ideas ran dry within the first few albums.
I still love Dream Theater but the vocals are low on their writing priority list and it shows.
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And I thought it's like TA was written for JLB. It's like a vocal album to me. And considering JP/JR write all the melodies including vocals every song just shines with JLB.
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James sounded awesome when I saw DT in Nov 2017. I have perfect pitch and I assure you - he never missed a note.
Which show did you go to?
I'd be interested to know this, too. This isn't intended to be a witch hunt of you, DT1138, it's just an interesting claim you made. I'd say it's almost the nature of the beast for a rock singer to miss at least one note during a show.
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In the last days I listened to a few bootlegs from TA, and even with some moments of struggle, James nails it greatly. The correction in live releases seems to be minimal, comparing to these bootlegs.
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I should also clarify that I didn't imply he brought click tracks as a "requirement". I think it's more of a "I am perfectly comfortable playing songs to click", and I suspect DT had been wanting to do that all along but MP didn't like it.
I think that's probably spot on.
another reason why MP rules!
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I'm not much of a fan of jlb much these days . But I think people are unfair to him. Its not 1992 anymore.
Yeah hes lost a lot but it's not a total vocal blow out the like of a Brian Wilson etc.
I think a huge issue is that JP doesn't seem to really know (with exceptions) how to best write for JLBs voice. JLB sounds awesome on his solo stuff, because he and Matt know how to make him shine. JP either hears JLBs voice differently in his head, or just writes for something else and tells JLB to sing it. Either way, JLB doesn't shine as much on a lot of the more recent DT, and in my opinion, it's because the vocals aren't great for his voice.
I'm gonna throw out a hot take here: JP doesn't really know how to write vocal melodies that are both compelling and sustainable for singers in general, not just JLB. They wrote a load of absolutely ridiculous melodies for IAW and then by pure chance found a singer who could perform all that in a way that was cool and interesting. When JLB had his accident and his voice changed, the well of ideas ran dry within the first few albums.
I still love Dream Theater but the vocals are low on their writing priority list and it shows.
Take your hot take and raise you a hotter take. One of the beefs with James (as evidenced on the doc on the Systematic Chaos Deluxe Edition) was the, shall we say, "input" that Mike and to a lesser extent John gave to James on his singing (the specific takes, not in general). James seemed to resent Mike "producing" him in that way and one of the comments James made when Mike left was that he didn't have to deal with that anymore.
Well, any athlete that has ever played for a demanding coach will tell you, sometimes you don't like to hear it, but sometimes that's what it takes to be the best you can be. Ask Phil Simms, Tom Brady, Terry Bradshaw, etc.
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Yeah but, there's a way to do it and a way not to do it. And if he didn't have much of an issue with JP, that would suggest JP might know how to go about it a little better. Add to that, I thought his vocals on A Dramatic Turn of Events and the self titled are just as good as anything that came before, and The Astonishing is perhaps my favorite vocal performance of him overall. So I'd say, he clearly *didn't* need it - not that there didn't need to be any producing, because there was, but he didn't need someone standing over his shoulder the whole time.
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So I'd say, he clearly *didn't* need it...
Maybe. But here's an alternate possibility (and I am merely speculating, just as much as you): Maybe he did need it, and the reason you like his performance on ADTOE and TA is precisely because of what he gained from that experience that caused him to grow as a vocalist?
...but he didn't need someone standing over his shoulder the whole time.
Okay, but we don't have any evidence of anyone ever "standing over his shoulder the whole time." Not ever.
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So I'd say, he clearly *didn't* need it...
Maybe. But here's an alternate possibility (and I am merely speculating, just as much as you): Maybe he did need it, and the reason you like his performance on ADTOE and TA is precisely because of what he gained from that experience that caused him to grow as a vocalist?
...but he didn't need someone standing over his shoulder the whole time.
Okay, but we don't have any evidence of anyone ever "standing over his shoulder the whole time." Not ever.
Well, I'm happy to admit I was exaggerating there. :) But he clearly wasn't comfortable with the set up. To the point above - anything is possible. And I'm sure all of the experiences he's had has helped to shape him over time, so I don't necessarily think you're wrong. At the same time, many people also prefer his vocals on his solo albums, most of which were released before the Chaos in Motion DVD, and the Frameshift album... And, he's delivered great vocals throughout their career, including the very beginning. There was an interview with him that made me think the SC-style producing wasn't the way it had always been. I think he at least indicated it hadn't been like that for I&W and Awake.
I'm not saying MP shouldn't have been involved at all. If the melody writer (JP or MP) has a clear vision of how they want the vocals melodies to be, then certainly they're going to want that vision realized and may need to give feedback in order to get it. On top of that they were the producers. So some direction is normal, and even maybe a little tension now and then. But again, I think JP's approach was probably better. A producer acquaintance once mentioned that half the job of producing vocals was to make sure the singer was comfortable and relaxed. JP seems to do that. I don't think James' discomfort with what MP was doing on the documentary is a discredit to JL at all.
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I agree on some people being extremely critical of James to the point of being completely delusional.
I'd recommend people just check Zach's live vocal analysis video, which, in my opinion, are a great piece of work.
He's a professional vocal coach and literally makes a living of analyzing voices, so he's got experience to back what he's saying.
Either way, I think it's ok, I mean, studio corrections are not such a bad thing, after all, it's a release to be heard as best as possible with the highest quality possible.
And no, he totally does not use live pitch correction.
I thought it was interesting in that live analysis video when he said there was definitely some enhancements made to the vocals in Score. I don't recall exactly what those enhancements were. I'll look at the video again when I get home in a couple hours. But what I'm trying to say is that it's interesting that people here who know way more about the band say there weren't any (or extremely minimal) vocal enhancements/corrections but there are some bootlegs on YouTube that sound very bad. I don't know what to believe.
But to answer the question, LaBrie sounded good enough for me when I saw them last November. I don't remember him sounding off key or anything. Butt I was very drunk and it was my first time seeing one of my favorite bands live. I'm curious to see how LaBrie sounds on this upcoming tour with them playing all of Metropolis Part II.
Edit: I couldn't find the time stamp from that video where Zach Ansley talks about Score but here is the page from the thread where he posts about it: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=52342.70
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Butt I was very drunk
You don't say? :lol
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But what I'm trying to say is that it's interesting that people here who know way more about the band say there weren't any (or extremely minimal) vocal enhancements/corrections but there are some bootlegs on YouTube that sound very bad.
Bootlegs of that specific show? I'd like to hear what you are referring to. Everything that I've heard from that specific show say otherwise.
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But what I'm trying to say is that it's interesting that people here who know way more about the band say there weren't any (or extremely minimal) vocal enhancements/corrections but there are some bootlegs on YouTube that sound very bad.
Bootlegs of that specific show? I'd like to hear what you are referring to. Everything that I've heard from that specific show say otherwise.
Can I post a YouTube link to a bootleg?
Edit: On second thought even if I am allowed to post the link, it would be against the rules because this particular video is a "bashing video". Also, it was put up by a former member of this forum who seems to have a personal dislike of LaBrie and was banned. If it's not against the rules, I'll post the title for the video.
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Since it is an officially-released show, generally not. But I'll make an exception for "scientific purposes" for this.
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Since it is an officially-released show, generally not. But I'll make an exception for "scientific purposes" for this.
It's a bashing video so I probably shouldn't post the link. The title is "Dream Theater's "Score" Contains Fake Vocals".
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So I'd say, he clearly *didn't* need it...
Maybe. But here's an alternate possibility (and I am merely speculating, just as much as you): Maybe he did need it, and the reason you like his performance on ADTOE and TA is precisely because of what he gained from that experience that caused him to grow as a vocalist?
...but he didn't need someone standing over his shoulder the whole time.
Okay, but we don't have any evidence of anyone ever "standing over his shoulder the whole time." Not ever.
I agree with Bosk here - we don't really know anything. The only guess I'd venture is that JLB's and MP's personalities don't jive, so that's where the problem was for JLB. Whether the coaching helped him or hindered him, we don't know. For me, JLB sounds as he always sounded on latter DT albums, free or directed he sounds the same, with the exception of TA, where the genre and the demands were different.
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Since it is an officially-released show, generally not. But I'll make an exception for "scientific purposes" for this.
It's a bashing video so I probably shouldn't post the link. The title is "Dream Theater's "Score" Contains Fake Vocals".
Yeah, good call. I know there is raw footage out there where someone could do a good comparison if they wanted to. Without going to the trouble of comparing that the audio in that one to the audio on Score, a couple of things come to mind:
-1. Given the source, I wouldn't trust that what he is putting out there is truly raw, unedited footage (i.e., given the guy's reputation, I wouldn't put it past him to have altered the audio just to try to make his point).
-2. I'm not hearing much difference anyway. There was one part that James sounded flat on a note where I'm pretty sure it was different on Score (and, again, nobody ever said there were NO overdubs), but not much else.
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Since it is an officially-released show, generally not. But I'll make an exception for "scientific purposes" for this.
It's a bashing video so I probably shouldn't post the link. The title is "Dream Theater's "Score" Contains Fake Vocals".
Yeah, good call. I know there is raw footage out there where someone could do a good comparison if they wanted to. Without going to the trouble of comparing that the audio in that one to the audio on Score, a couple of things come to mind:
-1. Given the source, I wouldn't trust that what he is putting out there is truly raw, unedited footage (i.e., given the guy's reputation, I wouldn't put it past him to have altered the audio just to try to make his point).
-2. I'm not hearing much difference anyway. There was one part that James sounded flat on a note where I'm pretty sure it was different on Score (and, again, nobody ever said there were NO overdubs), but not much else.
I haven't gone through the whole video but the stuff I compared to the Score album sounds very different. But I have to agree that this video can't really be considered an objective source.
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Do you folks tend to feel cheated if you are at a live show and the singer has an off night? Do most people get angry about that?
Just curious about other opinions. I've seen some singers have off nights live and I never felt it ruined the show, or made me upset. Sometimes I enjoy hearing something weird live, as that's part of the charm of a live show anyway.
But I see so many comments on YouTube videos and Facebook where people just seem totally pissed off and enraged if a singer isnt spot-on all the time.
But the folks on this particular forum seem to be a little more reasonable in their critisisms. But what do you guys think? Just how important is a flawless live vocal performance?
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Well, it's important in the sense that if you get a killer show, you walk away full of admiration, like, "wow, he/she's even better than I imagined!"... which maybe can't be said for the other players.
There are pros and cons in the end... I mean:
Singer is great = wow, he's awesome!
Singer is bad = Damn, he must have had a cold, bad luck, at least he tried
Player is great = nice, like on the album!
Player is bad = geez, how many mistakes he did!
What I mean is that a singer can be excused for being even slightly sick, the guitar player fucking up the solo is just screwing up, it's not that he has a line of fever and that makes him forget the notes.
I understand how difficult it is to sing and I would never consider a bad performance a personal slight or a lack of commitment.
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Do you folks tend to feel cheated if you are at a live show and the singer has an off night? Do most people get angry about that?
Just curious about other opinions. I've seen some singers have off nights live and I never felt it ruined the show, or made me upset. Sometimes I enjoy hearing something weird live, as that's part of the charm of a live show anyway.
Well, what if you go to Broadway and go see the Lion King, and Mustafa blows the night you go? Is that OK?
I'm not a James basher, but I cannot argue with what is being said. You accept that he may not have the range he did 25 years ago, and if that's all it was, then fine. But if we are all being honest, it's more than that.
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Do you folks tend to feel cheated if you are at a live show and the singer has an off night? Do most people get angry about that?
For the most part, I'd say no, altho I think it would really depend on the situation. I'm usually more forgiving, and it's more likely that I'd be rooting for them to still manage to pull it off. This was the case when I saw Rush's final show in LA. Geddy really seemed to be struggling at the beginning of the show and I was more worried that he wouldn't make it thru than anything else. OTOH, if the vocalist just seems to be phoning it in, or putting in a terribly lackluster performance like what Stephen Pearcy did at a couple of recent Ratt shows, I'd be angry.
That said, if a vocalist just can't manage to sing a song like it was originally recorded, they should recognize their limitations and either alter the song - alter the vocal melodies like what Geddy did for Circumstances in 2007 or lower the key (a little - not so that it sounds like mud) - or drop the song altogether. If they consistently try to sing the vocals like originally and it's obvious they can't do it, their performance can be a turn off.
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So I'd say, he clearly *didn't* need it...
Maybe. But here's an alternate possibility (and I am merely speculating, just as much as you): Maybe he did need it, and the reason you like his performance on ADTOE and TA is precisely because of what he gained from that experience that caused him to grow as a vocalist?
...but he didn't need someone standing over his shoulder the whole time.
Okay, but we don't have any evidence of anyone ever "standing over his shoulder the whole time." Not ever.
Well, I'm happy to admit I was exaggerating there. :) But he clearly wasn't comfortable with the set up. To the point above - anything is possible. And I'm sure all of the experiences he's had has helped to shape him over time, so I don't necessarily think you're wrong. At the same time, many people also prefer his vocals on his solo albums, most of which were released before the Chaos in Motion DVD, and the Frameshift album... And, he's delivered great vocals throughout their career, including the very beginning. There was an interview with him that made me think the SC-style producing wasn't the way it had always been. I think he at least indicated it hadn't been like that for I&W and Awake.
I'm not saying MP shouldn't have been involved at all. If the melody writer (JP or MP) has a clear vision of how they want the vocals melodies to be, then certainly they're going to want that vision realized and may need to give feedback in order to get it. On top of that they were the producers. So some direction is normal, and even maybe a little tension now and then. But again, I think JP's approach was probably better. A producer acquaintance once mentioned that half the job of producing vocals was to make sure the singer was comfortable and relaxed. JP seems to do that. I don't think James' discomfort with what MP was doing on the documentary is a discredit to JL at all.
Not arguing with you, and not trying to advance my case, BUT: whether you or I like a vocal or not is not evidence of what I am talking about ("This Is The Life" is probably my favorite James performance in the catalogue, and I'm a "James" guy; DT would not be DT without him). Many people hated (and still hate) the growly vocals by Mike, but that was his artistic choice.
As for "off nights", well they happen. For me, it's less about that they happen, than what and how the band/singer reacts. Maybe if Geddy isn't feeling good, you drop "Temples of Syrinx" and add "La Villa Strangiato", or something. Voice aren't like hammies where you can power through them, but a singer has to know what he's working with and deal accordingly.
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So I'd say, he clearly *didn't* need it...
Maybe. But here's an alternate possibility (and I am merely speculating, just as much as you): Maybe he did need it, and the reason you like his performance on ADTOE and TA is precisely because of what he gained from that experience that caused him to grow as a vocalist?
...but he didn't need someone standing over his shoulder the whole time.
Okay, but we don't have any evidence of anyone ever "standing over his shoulder the whole time." Not ever.
Well, I'm happy to admit I was exaggerating there. :) But he clearly wasn't comfortable with the set up. To the point above - anything is possible. And I'm sure all of the experiences he's had has helped to shape him over time, so I don't necessarily think you're wrong. At the same time, many people also prefer his vocals on his solo albums, most of which were released before the Chaos in Motion DVD, and the Frameshift album... And, he's delivered great vocals throughout their career, including the very beginning. There was an interview with him that made me think the SC-style producing wasn't the way it had always been. I think he at least indicated it hadn't been like that for I&W and Awake.
I'm not saying MP shouldn't have been involved at all. If the melody writer (JP or MP) has a clear vision of how they want the vocals melodies to be, then certainly they're going to want that vision realized and may need to give feedback in order to get it. On top of that they were the producers. So some direction is normal, and even maybe a little tension now and then. But again, I think JP's approach was probably better. A producer acquaintance once mentioned that half the job of producing vocals was to make sure the singer was comfortable and relaxed. JP seems to do that. I don't think James' discomfort with what MP was doing on the documentary is a discredit to JL at all.
Not arguing with you, and not trying to advance my case, BUT: whether you or I like a vocal or not is not evidence of what I am talking about ("This Is The Life" is probably my favorite James performance in the catalogue, and I'm a "James" guy; DT would not be DT without him). Many people hated (and still hate) the growly vocals by Mike, but that was his artistic choice.
Yeah.... but I'm not really sure how that fits into this discussion. Or maybe I do in that you're saying Mike had a certain vocal in mind that he wanted to see regardless of whether we think James was better later or not. And I get that - and again I'm not saying he shouldn't have been doing that or shouldn't have been producing (he was one of the producers). I just think he could have gone about it differently.
As for "off nights", well they happen. For me, it's less about that they happen, than what and how the band/singer reacts. Maybe if Geddy isn't feeling good, you drop "Temples of Syrinx" and add "La Villa Strangiato", or something. Voice aren't like hammies where you can power through them, but a singer has to know what he's working with and deal accordingly.
Maybe they should've done that, but I don't think they (Rush) did that, at least not towards the end of their career. The setlist was pretty much established and I don't recall any substitutions. :) In theory, it seems like a good idea, especially if a singer is sick before the show and they have time to make plans. If he/she finds out during the show, not much you can do about that.
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James sounded awesome when I saw DT in Nov 2017. I have perfect pitch and I assure you - he never missed a note.
Which show did you go to?
I'd be interested to know this, too. This isn't intended to be a witch hunt of you, DT1138, it's just an interesting claim you made. I'd say it's almost the nature of the beast for a rock singer to miss at least one note during a show.
Sorry guys, I'm very tardy to the party here. No witch hunt assumed ;D ;D.
It was Chicago Nov 3, 2017. While I can't say I memorized every note he sang, nothing glaringly stood out as being off key (unlike a local bar band I heard recently - that lady trying to sing Adele made me want to jump out a window, Jesus H Christ).
Regardless, James was also very engaged with the audience and full of energy, so it was a great night for him overall. When JP came back for the G3 Feb 2018, I was first in line for the meet and greet. I told John I thought they sounded great and he was very excited by the feedback.