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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: WildRanger on October 17, 2018, 01:16:16 PM

Title: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: WildRanger on October 17, 2018, 01:16:16 PM
Somebody posted this image with hard rock and heavy metal albums of 1981 in the facebook group called "The Greatest Rock Albums of All Time":
(https://scontent.fbeg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/44123940_918250391718580_7632746785865203712_n.jpg?_nc_cat=104&_nc_ht=scontent.fbeg1-1.fna&oh=50785183375ef21520c89ed5197aa9ed&oe=5C4B7F49)

I'm in that group and I saw there were many people who replied with 'None' on that post. Even some people went that far to call the albums on the pic shit. I got kinda pissed off. That FB post got over 600 replies(FB group is very big and it has 127 000 members) and many of them were negative.

How about you? Would you be pissed off if you were in that FB group and if you witnessed the replies of those people with limited taste who can't stand 80's heavy music?
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: cramx3 on October 17, 2018, 01:19:46 PM
I dont know what limited taste means or why I should care about some facebook group, but sticking to the question....

I voted High N Dry, my favorite Def Leppard album.  However, Iron Maiden are my favorite band so I kind of wanted to go Killers, but decided to give it to DL instead.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Mladen on October 17, 2018, 01:24:24 PM
Of the ones I've heard, which is basically half of them, Point of entry is my favorite.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: pg1067 on October 17, 2018, 01:27:00 PM
How about you? Would you be pissed off if you were in that FB group and if you witnessed the replies of those people with limited taste who can't stand 80's heavy music?

It takes far more than a Facebook post or comments on a post to piss me off, and I haven't gotten "pissed off" about what music other people do and don't like or what they think of music I like since I was in high school.

As for the question posed, of the albums pictured, I would choose either Mob Rules or Diary of a Madman, but my actual pick from 1981 would be Moving Pictures.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: MirrorMask on October 17, 2018, 01:27:18 PM
Mob Rules.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: SystematicThought on October 17, 2018, 01:33:16 PM
Out of this list, I'd say Fair Warning, even though it's one of my least favorite Van Halen albums
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: CrimsonSunrise on October 17, 2018, 01:38:31 PM
"If you listen to fools....."
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: TAC on October 17, 2018, 01:51:38 PM
So I rate 1981 as the greatest year EVER for music.

I'd take both MSG and UFO over everything pictured there, but High n Dry and Diary are essential.
Also Thin Lizzy's Renegade.

If anyone is interested I made a playlist on Spotify for the years 1977 through 1985. I mean one playlist per year.
Here is my 1981:
https://open.spotify.com/user/tacdtf/playlist/15SGYTMiAuS2wb0OgmoNdu?si=cU37KlUvRR-Ffun_JGOz7A




Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Sacul on October 17, 2018, 01:52:34 PM
Haven't listened to any of these so "None" :metardica:
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: The Walrus on October 17, 2018, 01:53:36 PM
Haven't listened to any of these so "None" :metardica:

... wut
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: 425 on October 17, 2018, 02:08:36 PM
This is an... interesting... thread...

But I guess Killers?
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Sacul on October 17, 2018, 02:11:24 PM
Haven't listened to any of these so "None" :metardica:

... wut
ye
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Elite on October 17, 2018, 02:14:40 PM
Haven't listened to any of these so "None" :metardica:

this, basically

I think I've heard 'Killers' once. I might even own it on CD back from my high school Iron Maiden phase, but I can't recall a thing from it. all the others I'm pretty sure I've never heard in full.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Stadler on October 17, 2018, 03:17:59 PM
Sacul and Elite.  Please.   Pick even half of them and go listen.  That is essential listening.  It's like saying "I like to read" but never having read Shakespeare.  Or "I'm a foodie" but I've never had filet mignon.  If either of you have a roulette, my submissions may only come from that list.

Other than Dokken and Kix, who aren't in the same league as the rest, and Hanoi Rocks (eh), not only have I owned all of them since vinyl days, but easily half of them are my favorite album by that artist:

Diary
Killers
High 'n' Dry
Point of Entry
For Those About To Rock
Fair Warning

Mob Rules, Come and Get It and Too Fast are up there (but I prefer SBS, Slide It In and Dr. Feelgood, unfortunately)
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: bosk1 on October 17, 2018, 03:35:02 PM
That's a pretty good (not great) list of albums.  But it's not like anyone's life is incomplete just because they haven't heard your or my short-list of "albums of the year" for a given year.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Adami on October 17, 2018, 03:37:56 PM
I've only heard a few of those albums, and my life seems fine.



Wait....is this why I'm bald??!?!

OH GOD!
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: bosk1 on October 17, 2018, 03:47:28 PM
As for the list itself, the ones I would consider worthwhile now would be Diary, High N Dry, and Breakin' the Chains.  Really solid albums.  I have Killers, but never listen to it.  They play Wrathchild every show anyway, and the rest isn't worth listening to.  I've liked what I have heard from Mob Rules, but not enough to buy it.  Had Too Fast for Love, whichever Van Halen album that is (it's been so long that I forget), and possibly that Whitesnake album as a youngster, but wouldn't buy them again.  No interest in the others.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: pg1067 on October 17, 2018, 04:10:23 PM
Let's start with the fact that the version of Dokken's Breaking the Chains that is shown is the 1983 U.S. release and not the 1981 European release.  I'm not familiar with how the Euro release differs (other than by reading Wikipedia), but it's nothing great either way.

Kix and Hanoi Rocks were bands that "real" metalheads made fun of back in the day, but I honestly can't say I've ever heard any song by either band.

Too Fast for Love was Motley Crue at its most raw and, arguably, heaviest.  If you have any interest in the band or in 80s metal in general, you ought to give it a listen, but it mostly didn't age well.

Point of Entry was a bit of a hiccup after the success of British Steel and before it all came together on Screaming for Vengeance.  It has a few good songs, but is hardly "essential."

I'm not familiar with Whitesnake's Come an' Get It, but I do know that lots of folks swear by the pre-self-titled period of Whitesnake.

The other six are generally regarded as "classics" of the era, and lots of folks think Diary of a Madman and Killers are the best Iron Maiden and Ozzy Osbourne albums (I agree on the former but not on the latter).  IMO, all have aged quite well.


They play Wrathchild every show anyway, and the rest isn't worth listening to.

I must be going to the wrong shows because I've only seen Wrathchild twice in seven Maiden shows over the years.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: bosk1 on October 17, 2018, 04:26:07 PM
You know, after you mentioned it, I went and took a look at the track list on that Dokken album, which reminded me of why I wasn't really a fan until later.  :lol  I recognize a total of two songs from that album.  So, yeah, let me retract as to that one.  It might be pretty good, for all I know, but I guess that is one that I either never went back and got or did and just cannot even recall the songs. 

I mean, it's kind of a moot point anyway, because I would have still easily chosen High N Dry as my #1, far and away, and Diary as my #2. 
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: jammindude on October 17, 2018, 04:48:07 PM
Seriously....that debut Kix album is a template for EVERY "pop metal" album that would come after. And it's kindof a shame that not only one of the very first, but also one of the very best examples of the genre is an album that hardly anyone has ever heard of. 

It's extremely difficult, if not impossible to find an album of that style and quality that dates before 1981.    Kix beat everyone to the punch, and constantly get swept under the rug for the "one hit wonder" from their 4th (and frankly, sub-par) hit album. 

If you're generally just not into the entire hair metal thing, then fine.  This album is not for you, and you can go ahead and ignore it.  But honestly.   If you really enjoy really great kick-ass, fun, pop, hair metal from the 80's....Kix's debut is pretty much the genesis of it.  And a damn good one too.    The ending track "Yeah, Yeah, Yeah" should have been to "party pop metal" what Freebird was to southern rock.   But lack of promotion ruined that.   
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: pg1067 on October 17, 2018, 06:11:43 PM
Having the same name as a bland as fuck breakfast cereal certainly didn't help....
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: TAC on October 17, 2018, 06:16:17 PM
So I had that Kix album but only after...

I recorded them on King Biscuit one night. I loved that live recording.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: The Walrus on October 17, 2018, 06:18:13 PM
I will say the only album I actually LIKE on that list is Killers, and it's amazing. Everything else is... ehhh.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Mosh on October 17, 2018, 06:27:46 PM
I would go with Fair Warning closely followed by Killers. Fair Warning is the quintessential Van Halen for me and a must for anyone remotely interested in the guitar. Killers is a solid slab of NWOBHM.

As for the rest of the list. Diary of a Madman is almost as important for guitar as Fair Warning and should be listened to for that alone. Some great songs on there too (DT also ripped off the title track on Surrender to Reason). I am pretty meh on the other ones. Mob Rules has some great moments but is like a lesser rehash of Heaven and Hell. Same with For Those About to Rock in relation to Back In Black. I guess you could say Too Fast For Love is one of the better Motley Crue albums, but that's like saying the chicken nuggets are one of McDonald's better menu items. Point of Entry is easily in my bottom 5 Priest albums. Haven't heard the Dokken or Whitesnake and don't really feel strongly about anything on High and Dry. How did this list manage to include Hanoi Rocks and Kix but not Saxon or MSG? Even Riot would've been better.  :lol
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: King Postwhore on October 17, 2018, 06:36:59 PM
With you on VH.  Dark, still with hooks, I love Fair Warning.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: KevShmev on October 17, 2018, 06:41:30 PM
Fair Warning and Diary of a Madman are both great, and High n' Dry is quite good, but the rest of those albums don't belong anywhere near a "greatest album of all time" conversation.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Mosh on October 17, 2018, 06:50:46 PM
As far as rock music goes, 1981 is sandwiched between two far superior years imo. Priest, Maiden, Sabbath, AC/DC, and even arguably Ozzy all released better albums that year. Also bands that didn't release anything in 81 like Motorhead, Rush, and Scorpions. Not to mention lesser known gems like Angel Witch and Diamond Head.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: KevShmev on October 17, 2018, 06:53:59 PM
As far as rock music goes, 1981 is sandwiched between two far superior years imo. Priest, Maiden, Sabbath, AC/DC, and even arguably Ozzy all released better albums that year. Also bands that didn't release anything in 81 like Motorhead, Rush, and Scorpions. Not to mention lesser known gems like Angel Witch and Diamond Head.

Rush didn't release anything in 1981? Might want to fact check yourself there, Professor. ;)
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Mosh on October 17, 2018, 06:57:42 PM
Oops, was thinking Moving Pictures was 1980 for some reason. Why isn't it in this poll??  :loser:
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: King Postwhore on October 17, 2018, 06:58:19 PM
Lol. February,  1981.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Mosh on October 17, 2018, 06:59:05 PM
It would be my pick for 81 then.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: gazinwales on October 17, 2018, 07:22:29 PM
if that was the reaction then I wouldn't be hanging around a FB group showing such discontent for those albums.
Mob Rules got my vote.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Grappler on October 17, 2018, 08:30:22 PM
Mob Rules.  Hands down, the best in that group.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: jjrock88 on October 17, 2018, 08:44:52 PM
Mob Rules for me.

Fair Warning would be close behind though
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: jammindude on October 17, 2018, 09:47:05 PM
So I had that Kix album but only after...

I recorded them on King Biscuit one night. I loved that live recording.

Steve Whiteman today is sadly almost just playing a caracature of himself.  But back in the day, he was the 2nd most entertaining front man in metal behind DLR.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: ChuckSteak on October 17, 2018, 11:26:15 PM
Killers by far.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Train of Naught on October 18, 2018, 02:13:29 AM
Sacul and Elite.  Please.   Pick even half of them and go listen.  That is essential listening.  It's like saying "I like to read" but never having read Shakespeare.  Or "I'm a foodie" but I've never had filet mignon.  If either of you have a roulette, my submissions may only come from that list.
Respectfully disagree with you here man. Add me to the list of 'only know Killers'. I don't believe in 'essential' music/books/films or anything. All these artforms are so widespread that people can pick anything they like, and a lot of times the so called essentials laid the groundwork for a lot of stuff that later expanded on them. Those could be more interesting to many people to check out (including me). Now say if there's a case of 'love Greta van Fleet but never heard of Zeppelin' I would probqbly call them insane and throw a Led Zeppelin II jewelcase at them, but there's rarely any cases where the modern band sounds that similar and that much like a copycat of an oldie goldie.

And to answer the oh so important thread question: no, I don't get pissed off at my computer screen when I see someone say an album that I like is shit. Do you even know how many terrible albums are part of my top albums list?? :neverusethis: I would never sleep!
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: ChuckSteak on October 18, 2018, 02:45:52 AM
I like to read. I have read 60 books this year so far. No, I have never read anything by Shakespeare.. and guess what: I don't feel much need or the urge to and my life is fine. There are so many genres and important authors in literature, you don't need to limit yourself to one.

There are zillions of books, albums and movies out there that are outside of the classics and are better or at least as good as most classics. If you only stick to the classics, it is kind of sad... you will experience so little of the "outside". You will have your whole music/literature/cinema history defined for you.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Zantera on October 18, 2018, 02:53:48 AM
I'm not familiar with all of them but I would hardly call it essential listening, I think most of these bands have done better albums.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Stadler on October 18, 2018, 07:20:19 AM
I like to read. I have read 60 books this year so far. No, I have never read anything by Shakespeare.. and guess what: I don't feel much need or the urge to and my life is fine. There are so many genres and important authors in literature, you don't need to limit yourself to one.

There are zillions of books, albums and movies out there that are outside of the classics and are better or at least as good as most classics. If you only stick to the classics, it is kind of sad... you will experience so little of the "outside". You will have your whole music/literature/cinema history defined for you.

Some of you are misinterpreting what I'm saying, most notably this post.  No one - well, at least not me - is saying these are the "best" albums (though I think they are, but I very clearly said "my favorite") or the "only" albums.  No one has to "stick" to anything (I agree; that's narrow).   But I do feel they are necessary to know to get a full picture of what the bands were doing and trying to achieve.  Just about every one of those albums - well over half - DEEPLY influenced, for better or worse, what came after. 

I'm not sure what any argument is for having "less knowledge" or "less information" - but whatever - but the best example of "why Shakespeare?" is perhaps Stephen King.  He's my favorite author, not even close, but when I started the Gunslinger, I was like "WTF, bro."  But I slowly got into it, murky though it was.  Then I realized that "Childe Roland, to the dark tower came..." was familiar.   And through various sources I found out it was a reference to a Robert Browning poem, but also to a snippet - a throwaway, really - to King Lear.   And both give you MASSIVE insights into the sprawling King work.   The Browning reference is likely about King himself (many suspect Browning intended "Roland" to be himself and his search for truth in his work) but the Shakespeare reference basically unlocks the Roland character and provides the sort of "key" to the code of the entire work (the Shakespeare reference is about  a man who is forced to deny his self-identity, is rejected by family and society, and (almost?) goes mad on a quest for truth in those respects).  It brings a new, and important depth to the King character.  Can you read and enjoy the Dark Tower without knowing that?  Of course.   No question.   Does it give more information and insight into the work?   Absolutely. 

If one person doesn't want to do that, so be it, but to deny that it might add depth is kind of... I don't know, narrow?
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: bosk1 on October 18, 2018, 08:05:57 AM
Going back to the poll question, I notice that the question on the pic that was posted is actually different and suggests that you can only have ONE album from 1981 to listen to for the rest of your life.  If I had to pick one and only one, I would still be okay with what I listed as my "favorite" of the bunch:  High N Dry.  That is just such a good album.  But it would have been a lot more interesting if ANY album from 1981 was on the table.  It would be really hard to erase Earthshaker from existence and not listen to that album again.  That would make it a REALLY tough choice.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: WildRanger on October 18, 2018, 08:24:03 AM
How did this list manage to include Hanoi Rocks and Kix but not Saxon or MSG? Even Riot would've been better.  :lol

And Earthshaker by Y&T.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: bosk1 on October 18, 2018, 08:25:28 AM
Okay, well this thread suddenly just earned a lot of points from me.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Stadler on October 18, 2018, 09:43:37 AM
To answer the specific question:  Diary of a Madman.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: 425 on October 18, 2018, 09:58:50 AM
Sacul and Elite.  Please.   Pick even half of them and go listen.  That is essential listening.  It's like saying "I like to read" but never having read Shakespeare.  Or "I'm a foodie" but I've never had filet mignon.

Yeah, I'm probably going to be more sympathetic to a line of argument like this than most of this forum, but I don't really think it makes sense to compare some 80s rock albums to Shakespeare.

If we were going to say that there is a comparison to Shakespeare, an artist or work that is essential listening in music the way that Shakespeare is essential reading in literature... It's not gonna be Kix. Not gonna be Iron Maiden. Not even gonna be The Beatles. It's gonna be, like, Beethoven.

You brought up Stephen King. Stephen King is a good comparison for Iron Maiden or whatever. Because Stephen King writes popular fiction, and Iron Maiden writes popular music. Shakespeare writes literature, and he's working on a whole level up from Stephen King. And though it's harder to evaluate in music, I think it's at least very likely the case that Beethoven is working on a whole level up from Iron Maiden.

This isn't a knock on King or on Iron Maiden. Popular fiction and popular music can be good and be very enjoyable! But I contend two things:
1. There is a definable difference between popular art and great art (and all the albums listed in the OP belong in the former category while Shakespeare belongs in the latter).
2. Great art provides an irreplaceable enriching value to a person's life, a value that is partly provided, but cannot be wholly provided, by popular art alone.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: pg1067 on October 18, 2018, 10:14:03 AM
Diary of a Madman is almost as important for guitar as Fair Warning and should be listened to for that alone. Some great songs on there too (DT also ripped off the title track on Surrender to Reason).

Huh?


There is a definable difference between popular art and great art (and all the albums listed in the OP belong in the former category while Shakespeare belongs in the latter).

Shakespeare is "great art"?!  LOL!
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Stadler on October 18, 2018, 10:24:32 AM
Well, I certainly get you; I was less equating Maiden with Shakespeare as I was that context is important, the arc of a band is important, and the influences on a band are important.   I only used "Shakespeare" because so many of us read him without actually wanting to, or without thinking "Oh, Shakespeare is my FAV writer!"

Diary is important as the last major work of Randy Rhoads, and a real statement following Ozzy's departure from Sabbath.  Point of Entry DIRECTLY influenced Priest's biggest record Sreaming (I think a real argument can be made that "Screaming..." is really "British Entry" or "Point of Steel", the refinement of the two albums that came before).   Killers is what led to Bruce Dickinson, the greatest frontman in metal, joining the band.  It's VERY different than the punk-ish first album, and Harris knew he was missing one piece and he went and got it.  Fair Warning; that's a band in transition.  It's not the SoCal party rock of VH I and VHII.  It's a dark look into the heart of Van Halen - strippers, porno, drugs, crime - and almost prescient (dare I say, a "warning"?), as the next album - Diver Down - was an almost 180 degree about face (half covers, joke-y songs, and a strong dose of Roth's pop/vaudeville sensibility.  Mob Rules, the last of the Dio Mark I records...
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Sacul on October 18, 2018, 10:26:36 AM
Pretty much agreed with 425, and there's also the fact that, while these albums were certainly important to understand the band's progression, and also deeply influential in the rock and metal that came after, that only covers a part of the whole music spectrum that's been made since, and has probably had little effect on electronic, hip-hop, jazz, pop, folk, ambient, etc. - these are all huge genres.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: 425 on October 18, 2018, 11:30:48 AM
There is a definable difference between popular art and great art (and all the albums listed in the OP belong in the former category while Shakespeare belongs in the latter).

Shakespeare is "great art"?!  LOL!

Kind of bizarre that you'd just dismiss this with "LOL" when this is an extremely popular view among people who know anything about literature. Either way, it's a rather empty response.


Well, I certainly get you; I was less equating Maiden with Shakespeare as I was that context is important, the arc of a band is important, and the influences on a band are important.   I only used "Shakespeare" because so many of us read him without actually wanting to, or without thinking "Oh, Shakespeare is my FAV writer!"

Ah, okay, I may have partly misunderstood your point. I understand the idea that the context and the arc are important, but I don't view them as vital, particularly in the context of popular music. Personally, I like to have some idea of the context, but I don't see the need to deep dive on every influence of every artist I like, particularly if I'm not a fan of them on initial contact.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: jammindude on October 18, 2018, 11:36:59 AM
The two sides of this argument almost depend on whether you are more visceral, or more studious.   Stadler and I obviously fall into the latter category.

I’m not even passing judgement on either one being “right or wrong”, I’m just saying there are those who go through life completely uninterested in the story of how any of us got to where we are today, and there are those who think that  our history is extremely important to how we got here.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: 425 on October 18, 2018, 11:40:56 AM
I think you raise a good point. And in life I am very much on the side that you describe as studious... I just don't dedicate quite as much time to that process when it comes to music (just due to limited time in life).
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: pg1067 on October 18, 2018, 12:21:34 PM
There is a definable difference between popular art and great art (and all the albums listed in the OP belong in the former category while Shakespeare belongs in the latter).

Shakespeare is "great art"?!  LOL!

Kind of bizarre that you'd just dismiss this with "LOL" when this is an extremely popular view among people who know anything about literature. Either way, it's a rather empty response.

Ok.  How 'bout this:  Shakespeare's work, as a whole, is teen rom-com level drivel, and its supposed importance is perpetuated by pretentious academics who stand to benefit both professionally and financially from the continued reverence of "the bard."
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: jammindude on October 18, 2018, 12:23:52 PM
There is a definable difference between popular art and great art (and all the albums listed in the OP belong in the former category while Shakespeare belongs in the latter).

Shakespeare is "great art"?!  LOL!

Kind of bizarre that you'd just dismiss this with "LOL" when this is an extremely popular view among people who know anything about literature. Either way, it's a rather empty response.

Ok.  How 'bout this:  Shakespeare's work, as a whole, is teen rom-com level drivel, and its supposed importance is perpetuated by pretentious academics who stand to benefit both professionally and financially from the continued reverence of "the bard."

Othello would like a word.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: jammindude on October 18, 2018, 12:36:26 PM
To be honest...(and I don’t mean to be insulting but, come on dude.) that statement is honestly pretty ignorant. You’ve just given a perfectly accurate description of Romeo and Juliette (EDIT - and a few of the comedies like Much Ado and the like) that is completely fair. But then you’ve used that as a blanket description of ALL of Shakespeare’s work, and that totally isn’t fair.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: 425 on October 18, 2018, 01:09:32 PM
Ok.  How 'bout this:  Shakespeare's work, as a whole, is teen rom-com level drivel, and its supposed importance is perpetuated by pretentious academics who stand to benefit both professionally and financially from the continued reverence of "the bard."

Othello would like a word.

Yeah, really no reply necessary beyond this. There might be ten better plays than Othello in world history, but there are not twenty.

There is such a thing as Bardolatry, but that does mean that Shakespeare is therefore trash. The merit of his great tragedies and histories (to say nothing of his sonnets) is almost impossible to dispute (and certainly cannot be effectively disputed by merely claiming they are "drivel").
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: pg1067 on October 18, 2018, 01:55:53 PM
Look...I read enough Shakespeare to know that I think it sucks, but none of it was recently enough that I can give you any sort of detailed critique.  It's nothing more than a subjective opinion (as is everyone else's opinion about it).
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Stadler on October 19, 2018, 07:30:09 AM
There's kind of a lot of "absolutism" in this discussion.  But the reality is, it's all relative, and it's all subjective.  I'm not suggesting that for every song I hear that I research the songwriters, find out what they had for breakfast that day, understand their credit score, and find the obligatory Shakespeare reference in their work, and then - and ONLY then - do I decide if I like it or not.  That's ridiculous.   

I'm just saying, though, that sometimes its interesting to see how ideas grow and transform and, sometimes, are stolen.   Most of you know I'm a huge Kiss fan; it's interesting to me to know that they came from New York City in the same environment that bred the NY Dolls, the Ramones, Blondie, Talking Heads... and yet sound nothing like them.   So for all the knocks that they're so "derivative" - and they are in many ways - to know that they were rather unique in their small corner of the world is informative.    I'm a huge Blackmore fan; it's interesting to me that there's a riff that, more or less, appears in Zeppelin (Dazed and Confused, 1:14, January of 1969), Sabbath (Iron Man, 1:59, September 1970), and Deep Purple (Highway Star, 2:56, March 1972).

Nuggetz, man, that's all.  Nuggetz. 
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: TAC on October 19, 2018, 07:32:05 AM
There's kind of a lot of "absolutism" in this discussion. 

Absolutely!


 ;D
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: ChuckSteak on October 19, 2018, 07:40:40 AM
Quote
That is essential listening.  It's like saying "I like to read" but never having read Shakespeare.
Sorry, I fail to see how this statement is not "absolutism". It is like saying: "Oh my god, you like jazz but you never heard Miles Davis?" "Oh my god, you like pop rock and you never heard The Beatles?" Or whatever genre you like. And then you go on your last post and say that it is all relative and subjective...  ::)
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Stadler on October 19, 2018, 09:50:29 AM
Quote
That is essential listening.  It's like saying "I like to read" but never having read Shakespeare.
Sorry, I fail to see how this statement is not "absolutism". It is like saying: "Oh my god, you like jazz but you never heard Miles Davis?" "Oh my god, you like pop rock and you never heard The Beatles?" Or whatever genre you like. And then you go on your last post and say that it is all relative and subjective...  ::)

They're not at all the same thing.  In fact, they're so not the same thing, I'm not even sure how to explain it.   

I don't understand any argument in favor of being ignorant.   It makes no sense to me.  Having said that, having knowledge, awareness doesn't mean you have to use every bit of info in every single experience.   It's the difference between saying "you either do not take even a bite of food in the house, or you eat every gram of caloric material in the kitchen".   In any case, if you don't even take a bite, you're not really in a position to comment on the taste of that food.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: jammindude on October 19, 2018, 11:02:47 AM
Quote
That is essential listening.  It's like saying "I like to read" but never having read Shakespeare.
Sorry, I fail to see how this statement is not "absolutism". It is like saying: "Oh my god, you like jazz but you never heard Miles Davis?" "Oh my god, you like pop rock and you never heard The Beatles?" Or whatever genre you like. And then you go on your last post and say that it is all relative and subjective...  ::)

I suppose one of the reasons I hang out here in the first place is because progressive rock fans (many, not all) are not quite so passive about their listening experience.

Yes, I suppose I do tend to “look down my nose” a bit at people who only have a very surface and passive, visceral experience listening to music. A very “I like it or I don’t” type of approach. Which is really kinda like Beavis and Butthead to me (“we like things that rule, and hate things that suck”)

But I’m not saying I’m right. It’s my tendency. Which is why I make fun of myself for being a snob. Because I always want to remind myself to not take myself that seriously. And to self-depreciate myself back down from my stupid high horse.

But still...progressive rock forums (and fans) are the only place I can go in the world and pick apart the intricacies of music for 3 hours and not bore people out of their skull. We all want a place where we are free to openly discuss the intricacies of the things we love with others who feel likewise.

You ever hear 3 guys who REALLY LOVE GOLF sit around and talk about golf for four hours?  There is joy in that for them. Or maybe a group of guys that love everything about baseball...to the point that they know the situation and outcome of every World Series race going back to WWI.

There’s joy in the exploration!!! Music is not this surface thing to people who are passionate about it. But I don’t say that to minimize the emotional experience people feel when they are visceral. I’m sure their emotions are as strong as mine. And their experience is their own.

Some of us just strongly believe (and through personal experience, we know) that there is another level to explore. Once you’ve experienced it, you never want to go back.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Sacul on October 19, 2018, 11:56:43 AM
That's a good point, and makes me think there aren't many places to discuss music like we do here - sure you can probably go to rateyourmusic, /mu/, or sputnikmusic, but I haven't really found much sense of community there, only plenty of random people and many toxic ones.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: King Postwhore on October 19, 2018, 12:21:08 PM
That's a good point, and makes me think there aren't many places to discuss music like we do here - sure you can probably go to rateyourmusic, /mu/, or sputnikmusic, but I haven't really found much sense of community there, only plenty of random people and many toxic ones.

Shut up. 



I love you man.



This place rocks and I love that no matter the age we all love sharing our love for music.  You guys have opened me up to a ton of new music and made my wallet lighter.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Stadler on October 19, 2018, 12:22:22 PM
I agree with Jammin' on every point except the snob part.  I'm sort of the anti-snob.   I don't care if people just "like" or "don't like" - that's most of the people in my life - and in fact I support that, but I push back on those who try to ascribe some absolute truth to a landscape that exists largely (wholly?) in their own head.  "I like it, therefore that artist is a genius, and anyone who likes that is smart and informed.  I don't like it therefore that artist BLOWS, and anyone who likes it is a douchenozzle."

My daughter (used to) love Justin Beiber, and now loves Fall Out Boy.  That doesn't make her a douchenozzle or dumb or uninformed.
I think Demi Lovato is an AMAZING singer, but her music just doesn't connect with me.  That doesn't make her any less talented.
I can't imagine that Noel Gallagher is anything more than a passable guitar player, but my god does that man's music connect with me.   

I, for one, LOVE the idea of being able to talk with people about stuff that 99.9% of the population doesn't even know exists, let alone cares about.   To me, it's FASCINATING that "We're Not Gonna Take It" by Twisted Sister is (acknowledged by Dee) set to the tune of "Oh Come All Ye Faithful".  Listen to the Bruce Springsteen Storytellers; I literally became a Bruce fan after watching the segment where he acknowledged the lyrics to "Blinded By The Light" and how Manfred Mann forever made it seem like it was "revved up like a douche...".  I thought it was just me and my juvenile 16-year-old brain, but his self-awareness was enlightening.   


(By the way, to Sacul and Elite:  when I wrote "Sacul and Elite: please." I meant it in the sense of "Sacul and Elite, please indulge me here  for a second." not "Sacul and Elite, mutherfucker, please, you're whack!" It was meant respectfully.)
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Stadler on October 19, 2018, 12:43:05 PM
Interesting  sidebar:   I remember watching ESPN Sportscenter and John  Buccigross made a Marillion reference and I literally had not one person I could share that with.  It was a sad moment. 


(For those not fans, the anchors on Sportscenter had a thing where they tried to drop in as many obscure cultural references as they could; kind of like Dennis Miller, if you're familiar with his comedy.  I can only imagine how many go right over my head, but I got that one, and felt like Gilligan on his island). 
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: King Postwhore on October 19, 2018, 01:09:14 PM
Interesting  sidebar:   I remember watching ESPN Sportscenter and John  Buccigross made a Marillion reference and I literally had not one person I could share that with.  It was a sad moment. 


(For those not fans, the anchors on Sportscenter had a thing where they tried to drop in as many obscure cultural references as they could; kind of like Dennis Miller, if you're familiar with his comedy.  I can only imagine how many go right over my head, but I got that one, and felt like Gilligan on his island).

I miss Craig Kilborn.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: TAC on October 19, 2018, 01:28:53 PM
I miss Stuart Scott.  :sad:
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: TAC on October 19, 2018, 01:30:57 PM
Let's start with the fact that the version of Dokken's Breaking the Chains that is shown is the 1983 U.S. release and not the 1981 European release.  I'm not familiar with how the Euro release differs (other than by reading Wikipedia), but it's nothing great either way.


I remember hearing Breaking The Chains on the radio, which is a GREAT song. But then I bought the tape, and I was so disappointed. I thought it blew, though I did like Paris Is Burning.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: bosk1 on October 19, 2018, 01:45:15 PM
:cornholio:
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: jammindude on October 19, 2018, 01:50:05 PM
Stadler -

In a way, I’m anti-snob too. Just with the caveat that I recognize the tendency within myself. I actually make fun of snobs (including the tendency within myself towards that) in an effort to equal the playing field.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: jammindude on October 19, 2018, 01:52:22 PM
Also, I always felt that In the Middle  was one of the better tracks from the breaking the chains album
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: King Postwhore on October 19, 2018, 01:52:33 PM
Let's start with the fact that the version of Dokken's Breaking the Chains that is shown is the 1983 U.S. release and not the 1981 European release.  I'm not familiar with how the Euro release differs (other than by reading Wikipedia), but it's nothing great either way.


I remember hearing Breaking The Chains on the radio, which is a GREAT song. But then I bought the tape, and I was so disappointed. I thought it blew, though I did like Paris Is Burning.

The next 2 albums slayed though.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Stadler on October 21, 2018, 03:19:07 PM
I don't know what it is - though I'd guess it was named "Don Dokken", but even back in the day I always thought Dokken was a second rate band.   I was in a band, and the guitar player was a HUGE Dokken fan.  We tried doing... I think it was "Into The Fire", and it was by far my least favorite song in our repertoire.   I just thought they were so boring, especially compared to Rainbow, Scorpions, MSG,  Van Halen, and even Twisted Sister. 
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: TAC on October 21, 2018, 03:29:51 PM
Dokken was just so formulaic and their music really lacked balls. They were talented for sure, but there was just something missing. Like a soul.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: King Postwhore on October 21, 2018, 04:19:18 PM
You high bros. :lol
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: TAC on October 21, 2018, 04:33:59 PM
Speaking of high, listening to Dokken was like eating a donut. They both have a big hole in the middle.



Oh...and there's this:
(https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/fan/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffansided.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fgetty-images%2F2018%2F03%2F80692872-paul-natkin-archive.jpg.jpg&c=sc&w=850&h=560)
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: King Postwhore on October 21, 2018, 04:58:53 PM
I like donuts.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: TAC on October 21, 2018, 05:42:00 PM
Don Dokken trying to hang with us during Judas Priest's set.


(https://i.imgur.com/QKw8feC.jpg)

June 4, 1986
Providence Civic Center
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: bl5150 on October 21, 2018, 07:19:28 PM
Speaking of high, listening to Dokken was like eating a donut. They both have a big hole in the middle.



Oh...and there's this:
(https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/fan/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffansided.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fgetty-images%2F2018%2F03%2F80692872-paul-natkin-archive.jpg.jpg&c=sc&w=850&h=560)

Almost as bad as this

(https://www.jotdown.es/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Iron-Maiden-con-Bruce-Dickinson.jpg)
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: King Postwhore on October 21, 2018, 07:23:59 PM
Lol.  It was the 80's.   Aqua Net  made us all do stupid things.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: TAC on October 21, 2018, 07:24:55 PM
Speaking of high, listening to Dokken was like eating a donut. They both have a big hole in the middle.



Oh...and there's this:
(https://imagesvc.timeincapp.com/v3/fan/image?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffansided.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2Fgetty-images%2F2018%2F03%2F80692872-paul-natkin-archive.jpg.jpg&c=sc&w=850&h=560)

Almost as bad as this

(https://www.jotdown.es/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Iron-Maiden-con-Bruce-Dickinson.jpg)

 :lol


That's dirty! :lol





Not even close, brother. Not even close.
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Stadler on October 21, 2018, 08:09:43 PM
Don Dokken trying to hang with us during Judas Priest's set.


(https://i.imgur.com/QKw8feC.jpg)

June 4, 1986
Providence Civic Center

"I wish I could do that."
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Stadler on October 21, 2018, 09:04:40 PM


(https://www.jotdown.es/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Iron-Maiden-con-Bruce-Dickinson.jpg)

Bruce Dickinson by himself can out sing, dance, fuck, crochet, fence, write, fly, drum, cook, act, type, game, drive, draw, vacuum, bake, dress, hunt, produce, mix, master, file, salute, farm, launder, and DJ better than any member of Dokken, or their family. 
Title: Re: Lame replies on some post in a facebook rock group! Pick your fave album!
Post by: Adami on October 21, 2018, 09:06:56 PM
I actually have it on good word that the former bassist for Dokken is a HELL of a typist.