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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: WildRanger on August 24, 2018, 07:26:45 AM
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What would you say?
And why you think so?
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There are some questions that simply don't need to be asked. This is one of them.
Yes. And I'm not even a Black Sabbath fan.
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There are some questions that simply don't need to be asked. This is one of them.
Yes.
This.
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There are some questions that simply don't need to be asked. This is one of them.
Voila!!!!
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WildRanger, can you please give me an explanation in why he wouldn't be a guitar great?
Creator of metal as we know it. A riff machine where riffs like Children of the Grave, Into the Void, Under the Sun, Black Sabbath, Symptom of the Universe, Iron Man etc. are still heavier than anything released today.
While not being a full blown shredder, his leads are melodic with lots of feel and purpose, with a jazz background that shows at times. I look at Tony's guitar career more like the Ozzy era is where his riffs are dominant and then from Heaven and Hell through to the end of the Tony Martin era is where while his riffs still are Godly, his lead playing really started to shine. Lonely is the Word, Over and Over, Born to Lose, Kill in the Spirit World, Keep It Warm, Devil and Daughter, Glory Ride, Jerusalem plus many more all have some of my fav solos ever.
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WildRanger, can you please give me an explanation in why he wouldn't be a guitar great?
Or one of the three people who voted "no."
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WildRanger, can you please give me an explanation in why he wouldn't be a guitar great?
Creator of metal as we know it. A riff machine where riffs like Children of the Grave, Into the Void, Under the Sun, Black Sabbath, Symptom of the Universe, Iron Man etc. are still heavier than anything released today.
While not being a full blown shredder, his leads are melodic with lots of feel and purpose, with a jazz background that shows at times. I look at Tony's guitar career more like the Ozzy era is where his riffs are dominant and then from Heaven and Hell through to the end of the Tony Martin era is where while his riffs still are Godly, his lead playing really started to shine. Lonely is the Word, Over and Over, Born to Lose, Kill in the Spirit World, Keep It Warm, Devil and Daughter, Glory Ride, Jerusalem plus many more all have some of my fav solos ever.
Amen, Brother.
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WildRanger, can you please give me an explanation in why he wouldn't be a guitar great?
Creator of metal as we know it. A riff machine where riffs like Children of the Grave, Into the Void, Under the Sun, Black Sabbath, Symptom of the Universe, Iron Man etc. are still heavier than anything released today.
While not being a full blown shredder, his leads are melodic with lots of feel and purpose, with a jazz background that shows at times. I look at Tony's guitar career more like the Ozzy era is where his riffs are dominant and then from Heaven and Hell through to the end of the Tony Martin era is where while his riffs still are Godly, his lead playing really started to shine. Lonely is the Word, Over and Over, Born to Lose, Kill in the Spirit World, Keep It Warm, Devil and Daughter, Glory Ride, Jerusalem plus many more all have some of my fav solos ever.
PRAY THE LORD!!!
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He has to be.
He invented metal. That would be enough in itself but he’s a very good lead player too.
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Not a huge Black Sabbath fan, but yes, Iommi helped change music's course. If there's a Hall of Fame for guitarists he should have a life-sized marble statue in the foyer alongside the likes of Hendrix and Page.
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Technically he’s not that great, but he’s one of the best riff writers of all time, so he definitely deserves to be among the guitar greats.
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And all that with nine fingers (well, eight full fingers and two halfsies).
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Four people voted No, explain yourself.
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Impossible to answer if you can't define what a "guitar great" is. And since that is entirely subjective... well...
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Technically he’s not that great, but he’s one of the best riff writers of all time, so he definitely deserves to be among the guitar greats.
How is he technically not that great?
By just any measure that matters, Iommi is a great guitarist.
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He invented heavy metal. Without all of his fingers.
Does that answer the question for you?
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There are some questions that simply don't need to be asked. This is one of them.
Yes.
This.
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Technically he’s not that great, but he’s one of the best riff writers of all time, so he definitely deserves to be among the guitar greats.
How is he technically not that great?
By just any measure that matters, Iommi is a great guitarist.
Technically as in technical skills.
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What is wrong his technical skills? Answer: nothing.
Or are you suggesting that his technical skills are lacking because he doesn't feel the need to play 4,599 notes a minute or sit alone in a room and practice scales for 11 hours a day?
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Iommi is more than a 'guitar' great.
He invented metal, down tuning, doom riffs and without him metal would not be as it is today.
He is an immortal guitar player and a living legend.
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What is wrong his technical skills? Answer: nothing.
Or are you suggesting that his technical skills are lacking because he doesn't feel the need to play 4,599 notes a minute or sit alone in a room and practice scales for 11 hours a day?
Lol calm down.
Never implied there was anything wrong with his technical skills, there isn’t, I was just saying he’s not one of the most technically skilled guitarists which is a fact. But I never implied that meant he was not one of the greatest guitarists of all time, he is. I don’t think being able to play “4599 notes in a minute” is everything.
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(https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2014-06/27/20/enhanced/webdr05/anigif_original-18913-1403914873-3.gif)
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Your response did seem a bit over-the-top, dude, especially since it was pretty clear the corpse wasn't saying what you were saying he was saying.
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I agree, I was probably assuming a bit there. My bad.
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As a guitarist that is able to play a lot of Sabbath stuff, Iommi's style, sound and technique is very unique.
NoseofNicko is somewhat right in saying he isn't technically great, but on the other hand, I don't know what that has to do with anything. Two of his fretting fingers have rubber tips due to his missing fingertips. This is a HUGE disadvantage. Just think about that and then think about what he has been able to do with this setback. His lead playing relies mainly on pentatonic, minor and some blues. His jazz influence allows some variety, but nothing really around these scales, it's all in his phrasing mostly, maybe some Dorian in there too at times perhaps. Can use a tritone too obviously.
He's not doing massive shred runs or three note per string runs up the fretboard with lots of positional switches. He uses light string due to his disadvantage and is very gentle in his approach. So no, technically he's no Yngwie but that doesn't matter. What he's done is amazing and he instantly has his own sound and you know it's him as soon as you hear him. That beats good technical skill anyday.
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Even though I personally think he’s the most overrated guitarist in metal, the impact he has had on the genre is undeniable.
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Technical skill = icing
Song writing = cake
Eat too much icing without any cake and it turns into a sweetness overload. Personally, I'll take an awesome cake any day of the week.
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Saying Iommi's playing isn't technical is like saying Alexander Graham Bell's telephone isn't technical.
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Saying Iommi's playing isn't technical is like saying Alexander Graham Bell's telephone isn't technical.
Not bad actually. Compared to what was happening at the time, the telephone was very technical. Compared to Iphones, however, not so much. Similar to Tony.
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Saying Iommi's playing isn't technical is like saying Alexander Graham Bell's telephone isn't technical.
Not bad actually. Compared to what was happening at the time, the telephone was very technical. Compared to Iphones, however, not so much. Similar to Tony.
Exactly my point.
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Saying Iommi's playing isn't technical is like saying Alexander Graham Bell's telephone isn't technical.
Not bad actually. Compared to what was happening at the time, the telephone was very technical. Compared to Iphones, however, not so much. Similar to Tony.
Exactly my point.
Gotcha. Good point then.
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Saying Iommi's playing isn't technical is like saying Alexander Graham Bell's telephone isn't technical.
Good point. It's evolution. I think hence why I feel his lead playing really stepped up more in the 80's. 70's was a lot of blues pentatonic influence and then as the years progressed, you hear a lot more melody and the somewhat 80's style in his leads.
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But there's so much evolution in electric(!) guitar playing over the past 90 years (basically the time that electric guitars have existed), that it seems completely biased to give the pioneers of 50-odd years ago a heroic status (Jimi Hendrix always topping every single 'best guitarists ever' poll for example). Like with any instrument that's 'new', it takes time for the people to learn how to play it. There would never have been a Hammerklavier Sonata, if the piano hadn't existed for hundred years before that. The first piano pieces ever written could never possibly as technical as that, simply because people didn't know (yet) how to play the instrument and the cumulative knowledge of players wasn't as widespread as it is today. Hammerklavier was a fucking beast back in the day, now piano students at conservatories are expected to learn that thing.
A similar thing happens with guitars. Remember 'Eruption' by Eddie van Halen? I don't, because I wasn't alive back then, but the point I want to make is that it must have been insane in the seventies, but now it's looked at as a relic in the past - an important milestone, surely, but compared to what some guitarists do now (on a technical level that is!) Eruption isn't nearly as daunting at all. The abundance of good to great guitarists is frankly quite ridiculous and there's maybe hundreds of Youtube guitarists that could play circles around Iommi (again, on a technical level that is!), but those guitarists will never, ever, influence music in a way Iommi has.
Then comes my question in return: what if Iommi had never picked up a guitar? Surely at some point people must have gotten the idea that you could downtune strings or add more distortion. Again, this is evolution. The piano didn't simply 'exist' at some point; humanity went through hundreds of different types of piano before we got an instrument that can have quiet and loud tones, sustained or unsustained and that's actually playable by 2 hands and portable enough to fit in people's homes.
We see it nowadays, with (again electric) guitars 'evolving' to have 7, 8, 9 strings, because why wouldn't we? From a technical standpoint, the cumulative knowledge of how to play an electric guitar is getting so widespread that people will only get better. When was the last time a guitar solo truly amazed you? It's as if we expect our musicians to be able to do anything and everything, simply because we see it too often. You can't play 'Eruption' of guitar? Well, then you're not worth listening to, as there's thousands of people who will play that anyway.
Jeez, I do go on topic on this, didn't I? Thinking about what I read, it might actually deserve its own thread :lol
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Then comes my question in return: what if Iommi had never picked up a guitar? Surely at some point people must have gotten the idea that you could downtune strings or add more distortion. Again, this is evolution. The piano didn't simply 'exist' at some point; humanity went through hundreds of different types of piano before we got an instrument that can have quiet and loud tones, sustained or unsustained and that's actually playable by 2 hands and portable enough to fit in people's homes.
Well, but couldn't this be applied to everything? once we invented the cars, sooner or later someone would have figured out we could take machines to the sky. Erase the Wright brothers from existance, someone else would have came up with the plane sooner or later. Have the Titanic dodge the iceberg, another ship would have eventually had a similar accident and only then, and not because of the Titanic, would the standards for safety at sea be improved.
Yes, someone else would have downtuned the guitars sooner or later. Still, it was Tony Iommi who did it, and deserves the historical credit for it.
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duh (to the OP)
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nevermind.
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Yes someone would have come along, down tuned, invented metal, but they didn't, Iommi did.
He also has played with a significant handicap of two fingertips missing.
The most unique thing about Iommi is, nobody and I mean not one other guitarist sounds like him.
They can play his riffs, his signature guitar, his amp, but that sound is his and his alone.
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They can play his riffs, his signature guitar, his amp, but that sound is his and his alone.
This is what makes him stand out above the rest. This trumps technical ability.
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Saying Iommi's playing isn't technical is like saying Alexander Graham Bell's telephone isn't technical.
Not bad actually. Compared to what was happening at the time, the telephone was very technical. Compared to Iphones, however, not so much. Similar to Tony.
Exactly my point.
"Hoy, hoy. Bell here. This is number one. You want number two."
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I get it, about the technical ability; I can play just about anything from the first four records, and that should tell you all you need to know. But I think it's more than that. The way he put disparate pieces together (look at War Pigs; there isn't just the main riff, there are like five or six cool, independent pieces in there that all fit together nicely). Plus the material in the later Ozzy years was, in my humble opinion, very prog, and when you consider that most of that was made by two guys - Geezer and Tony - it's pretty miraculous.
We forget, too, that he was the guy in Tull for a while (well, two weeks) so at some point he was considered by his peers to be a player of some note and capability.
I'm loathe to judge players by what goes on record. There are guys - Iommi is one of them, Angus Young is another - that I just think have a bigger picture in mind. I have no doubt that they COULD play other things, but if you look at the sort of troubled history of Sabbath post Mob Rules, what was the incentive to do anything different? If anything, at that point he doubled down on the "Riffmaster General" crap (especially when Dio was in the band) and I think it hurt him. It's not what you think of when you think "SABBATH" but I think some of the stuff on Never Say Die! is really, really interesting playing.
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WildRanger, can you please give me an explanation in why he wouldn't be a guitar great?
Creator of metal as we know it. A riff machine where riffs like Children of the Grave, Into the Void, Under the Sun, Black Sabbath, Symptom of the Universe, Iron Man etc. are still heavier than anything released today.
While not being a full blown shredder, his leads are melodic with lots of feel and purpose, with a jazz background that shows at times. I look at Tony's guitar career more like the Ozzy era is where his riffs are dominant and then from Heaven and Hell through to the end of the Tony Martin era is where while his riffs still are Godly, his lead playing really started to shine. Lonely is the Word, Over and Over, Born to Lose, Kill in the Spirit World, Keep It Warm, Devil and Daughter, Glory Ride, Jerusalem plus many more all have some of my fav solos ever.
Amen, Brother.
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Thankfully guitar isn't played in a vacuum.
You sound like no one else and write music unheard before, you get to join Iommi and roughly 250 other immortals.
You reach the peak of technicality and you join 25000000 anonymous finger athletes.
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Thankfully guitar isn't played in a vacuum.
Say what?
(https://us.123rf.com/450wm/elnur/elnur1703/elnur170301284/73432092-man-playing-virtual-guitar-with-vacuum-cleaner.jpg?ver=6)
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You sound like no one else and write music unheard before, you get to join Iommi and roughly 250 other immortals.
You reach the peak of technicality and you join 25000000 anonymous finger athletes.
And half of them are 10 years old kids whose YouTube account have more followers than your Facebook, Twitter and Instagram pages combined, who are better than you anyway.
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Obviously he does, and we've yet to hear from any of the [now 6] no votes. I will say I agree about his technical limitations, and they actually do matter, though. To go back to what Kev wrote, no, you don't need to be able to play 4600 notes per minute. It does help if you're able to if that's what the song calls for, though. Tony got by incredibly well by not needing to do that. Were he able that might well have made him an even better guitarist. It's another tool in the box and therefore counts as a limitation.
Also, since Wolfking made his list, I was always fond of the Ancient Warrior solo. It has a wonderful Gilmouresque quality.
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We forget, too, that he was the guy in Tull for a while (well, two weeks) so at some point he was considered by his peers to be a player of some note and capability.
I never knew that!
Actually, I suppose it's possible that I did know it at one time and then forgot it, which would be the same as thinking I never knew it in the first place. Interesting... Maybe I did forget it, and then forgot that I forgot it.
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We forget, too, that he was the guy in Tull for a while (well, two weeks) so at some point he was considered by his peers to be a player of some note and capability.
I never knew that!
Actually, I suppose it's possible that I did know it at one time and then forgot it, which would be the same as thinking I never knew it in the first place. Interesting... Maybe I did forget it, and then forgot that I forgot it.
Find the Rolling Stones' Rock and Roll Circus; he appeared with Tull (though if memory serves, he mimed).
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We forget, too, that he was the guy in Tull for a while (well, two weeks) so at some point he was considered by his peers to be a player of some note and capability.
I never knew that!
Actually, I suppose it's possible that I did know it at one time and then forgot it, which would be the same as thinking I never knew it in the first place. Interesting... Maybe I did forget it, and then forgot that I forgot it.
Apparently he did two appearances with them right around the time they began in 1968. Not sure I'd read a whole lot into that.
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Also, since Wolfking made his list, I was always fond of the Ancient Warrior solo. It has a wonderful Gilmouresque quality.
How the hell did I miss this? That harmonic minor section right at the start of the solo is all class, and shows a bit more to Tony's playing and knowledge than what we are used to.
I agree too, technical limitations can be somewhat of a disadvantage at times escpecially on the type of album like Dehumanizer where some nice shred would probably work well, but for the most part, I haven't really thought that Tony's lack in that area has hurt the band or their sound in any way.
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Honestly - and I'm not making the case for Iommi technically here - but that he DIDN'T shred there is why I still LOVE Sabbath and yet don't listen to very many of the imitators.
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I will say I agree about his technical limitations, and they actually do matter, though. To go back to what Kev wrote, no, you don't need to be able to play 4600 notes per minute. It does help if you're able to if that's what the song calls for, though. Tony got by incredibly well by not needing to do that. Were he able that might well have made him an even better guitarist. It's another tool in the box and therefore counts as a limitation.
But they never wrote songs that called for shredding, thus it wasn't ever an issue. Greg Maddux didn't have a 98 MPH fastball in his toolbox. Was it a limitation? Maybe, Did it hamper his career, possibly, but not to any large extent. Tony could have been an "even better guitarist" but only marginally.
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I voted yes....a thousand times yes. If just for the riffs alone......they are so haunting and compelling.
But I think wolfking explained his depth as a guitarist as well. So many of his solos are top notch.......seeing him live completely confirmed that for me. There are only certain guitarists who can move me emotionally....he is definitely one of them. So from where I stand, that puts him in the elite guitar-playing stratosphere.
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https://www.loudersound.com/features/tony-iommi-how-i-wrote-the-riff-to-symptom-of-the-universe
Cool article,
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Yeah, that was a cool little read.