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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: bosk1 on July 19, 2018, 08:48:12 AM
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This topic comes up every once in a awhile, but never really gets completely fleshed out. One reason is based on a misunderstanding, so let me clear that up. Before ADTOE was released, a former forum user went on a rant and comparison between ADTOE and I&W. This got shut down and the user got banned. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE DISCUSSION IS OFF LIMITS. That user got banned and the discussion closed for 3 reasons: (1) it was before the album was released and he was posting spoilers; (2) his tone was very condescending and hostile to anyone who disagreed with him; and (3) his tone was very condescending toward the band and basically equated to "the band is just ripping themselves off! They are obviously washed up and unoriginal!" Those are the reasons the discussion was off limits. The topic itself is fine, provided the manner of discussion doesn't otherwise break forum rules. And it is a topic that has long fascinated me and that I have long wanted to talk to JP about in great detail, but never find the time to bring up because time is always limited and there are always more pressing things.
So let's talk about it.
Here's my take: There are some VERY close similarities between a good many songs on ADTOE and I&W. So much so that it really seems to be intentional. They aren't direct references or borrowed passages/lyrics, but simply nods to those other songs on different ways, many of which seem VERY obvious. But at the same time, there are some songs where I can find NO nods whatsoever, and that seems odd to me.
OTBOA has some VERY obvious nods to Pull Me Under. The buildup in the intro, the chugging riffs, the guitar and keyboard leads before the prechorus, the way the solo section is structured...these all seem like VERY intentional nods to Pull Me Under. So much so that for the longest time, it was so jarring and distracting to me that I actually had a hard time listening to the song without being pulled out of the moment by thinking about the similarities. And putting it in the lead off spot seems to be a further attempt to grab out attention and make us notice the similarities.
Same thing if we skip to the end of the album and look at the duo of songs that close it out (ignoring Beneath the Surface for just a moment). Far From Heaven and Breaking All Illusions bear some striking similarities to Wait for Sleep and Learning To Live, including each of those two closing epics reprising musical motifs from the shorter ballads that preceded them on their respective albums.
Lost Not Forgotten REALLY seems to parallel UAGM in many ways. The intros have a VERY similar feel, as well as the chugging riffs once we begin to move into the verses. I don't have enough background in music theory to be able to say they are doing the same thing musically. But they have very similar feels to them.
And the last connection I see is that Outcry has a very similar feel to Metropolis, pt. 1.
That's five songs that, IMO, have VERY strong connections across those two albums. But I cannot place the others. Beneath the Surface is its own thing. As I think it was JP said, it's a nice way to close out the album with a "roll credits" type of feel. It is a statement that the album is its own thing and the beginning of a new era, despite simultaneously seeming to be a nod to their past and a reassurance that, despite replacing Mike Portnoy, they are still 100% Dream Theater. It's a nice juxtaposition.
But to this day, I still don't know how to connect the remaining songs. For that matter, I don't even really know IF they connect. And that makes me wonder whether maybe some of the connections I see/hear in other songs aren't really there, and that any perceived connection is just a result of my mind making leaps because some other connections seem so obvious.
So, what do you guys see?
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The only real similarity I hear to I&W is Breaking All Illusions being ADTOE's answer to Learning To Live. But even then, they're two completely different songs despite the similarities. Other than that, I don't think they're very similar at all, even after reading all that stuff when ADTOE first came out.
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...they're two completely different songs despite the similarities. Other than that, I don't think they're very similar at all...
Well, sure. I was trying to say that as well. There are definitely similarities, both in terms of specific songs, and in terms of the two albums as a whole. But they are each still their own thing at the same time. Not trying to imply otherwise.
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...they're two completely different songs despite the similarities. Other than that, I don't think they're very similar at all...
Well, sure. I was trying to say that as well. There are definitely similarities, both in terms of specific songs, and in terms of the two albums as a whole. But they are each still their own thing at the same time. Not trying to imply otherwise.
And I wasn't implying that you were trying to imply otherwise! :biggrin: :lol
I remember a few years ago I went back to this and tried to compare the two, but I got nothing. I could see where similarities are but to me I thought I was overanalyzing and trying to make connections where there weren't (to me). I do think BAI is very similar to L2L in its structure but musically I don't know. The beginning is close though.
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I think 5/9 of the album being parallel to I&W is good enough.
It may be that you can't find the connection with the other 4 songs because there IS NO connection.
Inasmuch as the 5 you mentioned were purposely done to mirror I&W, the other 4 could be purposely not connected to I&W, too.
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...they're two completely different songs despite the similarities. Other than that, I don't think they're very similar at all...
I would say that, as standalone songs, the Far From Heaven/Wait for Sleep connection is the weakest. But when you look at where each song sits on the album as a whole, and how the closing epics that immediately follow reprise their motifs, the connection in terms of album structure becomes more obvious. But for each of the five songs I mentioned above, I too have gone back many times and asked myself whether I was overanalyzing and making connections that weren't really there. And I keep coming back to, "I don't think so." The connections just seem so obvious to me. And that just drives me crazy as I try to find connections with the remaining three songs, and can't see anything there. I REALLY need to talk to JP about this someday.
Well, sure. I was trying to say that as well. There are definitely similarities, both in terms of specific songs, and in terms of the two albums as a whole. But they are each still their own thing at the same time. Not trying to imply otherwise.
And I wasn't implying that you were trying to imply otherwise! :biggrin: :lol
I remember a few years ago I went back to this and tried to compare the two, but I got nothing. I could see where similarities are but to me I thought I was overanalyzing and trying to make connections where there weren't (to me). I do think BAI is very similar to L2L in its structure but musically I don't know. The beginning is close though.
I would say that, as standalone songs, the Far From Heaven/Wait for Sleep connection is the weakest. But when you look at where each song sits on the album as a whole, and how the closing epics that immediately follow reprise their motifs, the connection in terms of album structure becomes more obvious. But for each of the five songs I mentioned above, I too have gone back many times and asked myself whether I was overanalyzing and making connections that weren't really there. And I keep coming back to, "I don't think so." The connections just seem so obvious to me. And that just drives me crazy as I try to find connections with the remaining three songs, and can't see anything there. I REALLY need to talk to JP about this someday.
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There are clear and intentional similarities between the songs described in the OP. I can't hypotise the compositional choice's genesis, but I remember at the time it felt like a kind of In the Court of the Crimson King - In the Wake of Poseidon duality, as far as those 5 particular tracks were concerned.
I can't connect the rest of ADTOE's songs with I&W, but - taking the opposite path - I have toyed with some ideas about the I&W's "missing" counterparts, looking at the lyrics and who penned them.
Another Day talks about a painful real life experience, and you don't fock around with that.
Take the Time was the old line-up's declaration of intents after the first album "fiasco", featuring Mike's lyrical contribution too, and I guess the guys thought safer to not play with a song so strongly tied to a past band identity.
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Bosk, you called out the big similarities that I have always noticed. OtBoA is similar to PMU in structure in a number of ways. LNF is similar to portions of UaGM. FFH and BAI are similar to WFS and LTL.
Beyond that, I don't see similarities really. I think that is album was a balancing act for the band. I think they wanted to do two things - (1) prove to the fan base they could still make a "DT sounding" record without MP and (2) do what they usually do, change things up from the previous material and try some new things.
I think the result was them looking back on I&W and writing several songs that echoed back to those formulas (to a degree) which kinda proves the first item. It says - "hey world, we can still write these classic prog metal DT type songs". Additionally, they still wanted to bring new ideas to the table address point number two. Examples would be BTS closing the record, or a song like BMUBMD (that JP cited a newer band RED influencing him).
So the record for me is simply a mixture of looking back to show they could still do what they used to without a core member while still trying to move forward as well.
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I hesitate to bring up Star Wars because it inevitably results in a horror show, but ADTOE feels like the Force Awakens of Dream Theater albums. Just like Force Awakens references A New Hope, ADTOE references I&W. The references are numerous enough that I would forgive one for saying "remake", but I personally think the two have their own distinct feels.
I would be interested to know if DT specifically decided to reference I&W, or if it just kind of happened organically.
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Petrucci said they were going for a classic DT album that would reassure the fans after Portnoy’s departure. I’m sure Images was a blueprint for the classic DT album. It never feels like a copy to me. It still seems fresh and original, without changing who they are. I would rather they have musical nods to their past, then nods to other artists (like they were doing for awhile before this album).
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The only parallel/connection I hear that I haven't seen come up yet is Another Day->This is The Life. Structurally, these two are very similar. At least, to my ears.
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I do not belive DT went into studio with blue prints to make songs that were similar to other songs in their catalogue. It's just that a lot of the song writing techniques they use do tend to be reused over and over again. A lot of music uses a specific structure / chord progression. How many DT songs doesn't start with a clean guitar, then layers more and more instruments on it.
If you're looking for similarities, you will find them. Humans are exceptionally good at seeing patterns.
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To me, the most obvious parallel is between LtL and BAI. Both begin with one instrument (in LtL it's the keys; in BAI it's the guitar) playing a very odd time figure based on octaves and fifths, with the bass joining in a very "straight" rhythmic pattern. In BAI, the bass joins in the last pass through the main figure, and there is no analog to that in LtL. In LtL, there is a heavy rhythmic section to which there is no analog in BAI. Then both songs go into a slow figure in which the bass takes the lead and in which measures of 4/4 are alternated with various odd time measures. This is the first verse, and the keys and guitar provide only atmosphere and accents (primarily in the second half). There is then an uplifting chorus with a major feel (The "The way your hear sounds..." and "Live in the moment..." sections), followed by a heavier second verse (the "Listening to the city..." and "Emerald thoughts..." sections), although the second verse in BAI is significantly shorter than the first. Following a modified repetition of the opening odd time signature, both songs move into extended instrumental sections, which start with a guitar solo over a very calm background of keys and bass playing a lot of whole and half notes, and which finish with fast-paced playing in odd times before going back to sort of a final chorus section.
I noticed these similarities before I ever heard of or read Thiago's analysis. I didn't see the shitstorm that apparently resulted here because I was only lurking and occasionally posting on MP's forum at the time. In any event, these parallels are way too numerous and obvious not to have been intentional.
Other similarities are less apparent to me, although the similarity between the middle instrumental sections in Outcry and Metropolis are pretty obvious.
It would be nice to see JP comment on this because his failure/refusal to do so makes it seem a little like he is hiding from it. As MP noted in one of his many otherwise ill-advised comments on the situation, there's nothing inherently wrong with this since the same or similar structures can yield a virtually infinite number of songs (as is well illustrated by the Stream of Consciousness contest 15 or so years ago).
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It would be nice to see JP comment on this because his failure/refusal to do so makes it seem a little like he is hiding from it.
I disagree. I think I recall it being asked ONCE, very early on after the album was released. If memory serves, his response was a bit coy and evasive, but in a good-natured way that I think was meant more along the lines of him just not wanting to say too much and letting us work it out for ourselves in the beginning. I have no problem with that.
But it hasn't really come up to the band since then, as far as I am aware. So I don't see it has him or the band "failing" or "refusing" to address it at all. If he isn't asked the question, it seems odd for him to just throw it out there for no reason.
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I think it's clear that they were inspired by I&W with the direction they took on Dramatic. MP had left. They wanted to show they're still DT, but still modern. I personally think the connections they made are amazing! Doesn't detract from my enjoyment, if anything I think it's super cool.
I started noticing the structure similarities when I was learning Dramatic songs on guitar when the album dropped.
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I think it's clear that they were inspired by I&W with the direction they took on Dramatic. MP had left. They wanted to show they're still DT...
Beats putting someone else's album up in a corner and say "Let's be inspired by this other band."
I have zero musical knowledge, and cannot independently recognize any similarities. Even when they are pointed out to me I just shrug and say "eh... I can't hear it."
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It would be nice to see JP comment on this because his failure/refusal to do so makes it seem a little like he is hiding from it.
I disagree. I think I recall it being asked ONCE, very early on after the album was released. If memory serves, his response was a bit coy and evasive, but in a good-natured way that I think was meant more along the lines of him just not wanting to say too much and letting us work it out for ourselves in the beginning. I have no problem with that.
But it hasn't really come up to the band since then, as far as I am aware. So I don't see it has him or the band "failing" or "refusing" to address it at all. If he isn't asked the question, it seems odd for him to just throw it out there for no reason.
I recall possibly the same interview/question and also remember his answer being coy and evasive. That's probably the largest basis for my comment about him having appeared to be "hiding from it" (although to be fair, I think that interview was at a time when some loose ends still existed regarding MP's departure, so his reluctance to address the issue directly was probably understandable). I think, however, had he done it at the time, it might have quelled some of the criticism from haters/MP-sycophants. I feel confident that the parallels were intentional, so I think it would be interesting to hear them talk about it in more detail. I agree that it would be odd for JP to bring it up out of the blue. Maybe in a few years when the album is 10 years old, someone will ask him some "looking back now" questions.
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It can't be a coincidence that *some* songs of the album has basically the same structure of songs off the *same* album. The reasons? only the band know. Desire to go back to the roots. Fun experiment that gave incredibly good results and was adopted. Other reasons. Who knows.
The parallelisms between Angels / Pull Me Under, Glass Moon / Lost Not Forgotten and the Wait for Sleep / LtL combo (Far from Heaven and Breaking All Illusions) are evident, then of course as always these things get out of control and some people assumed that *every* song was a *precise* copycat of Images and Words. It's not. Lost Not Forgotten has a piano intro, Outcry which reminds Metropolis has a chorus and Metropolis doesn't.... they riffed off some of the I&W songs, sometimes more closely than the others, but trying to pair up all the other songs with the remaining songs off I&W was, and still is, a "looking for a black cat in a dark room who isn't there" situation.
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Honestly, I've never seen it, and while I can see what others are talking about, I don't really see or think about it aside from making jokes like "oh uagm and lost not forgotten have jp playing octaves that move up and down. same song confirmed" (Which, to be clear, is not to poke fun at anyone in particular, it's to poke fun at people who take the perceived similarities too far)
Really, I think that while there are certain structural and stylistic similarities, the overall sound and feel is just too different for me to see it as... Well, really anything...
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The songs Bosk listed are VERY similar to their I&W counterparts, with LNF and BAI being the most obvious. Very noticeable to me upon first listen. The banned poster in question even posted detailed time stamps, etc, to make his point and the evidence is rather compelling that something was going on. Still like the album very much.
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I agree with the similarities of the overall album structure and within the structure of those pair of songs: PMU/OTBoA, AD/TITL, Metropolis/Outcry, UaGM/LNF, WFS-LTL/FFH-BAI. I don’t see any correlation between BMUBMD, BiTS, BTS and any song on I&W.
Those similarities are many and I also believe it was intentional and, like of you already speculated, maybe with the intention to make an album that would be certainly very well received for all the fan base and even for the more occasional fans.
But to me, the most impressive thing of it, it is that DT really suceeded to make an album so fresh, original and inspired and still having as a guide the blueprint of an album already done. It's a bit contraditory, but in that sense, they managed to be incredibly creative IMO!
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The points that are made to compare the two to say I&W inspired ADTOE certainly make sense. I can hear the similarities in parts as well. I would swear that the solo in LNF is a continuation of the solo in UAGM....and would love to hear them played in succession.....they’d fit perfectly. Same tone and ‘feel’
I personally could care less if they ‘copied’ themselves or whatever the complaint was about it. As has been mentioned before....it’s their music to do with what they want. I like the subtle nod to I&W because ADTOE is still a great stand alone album.
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You know, I used to really love this album. I thought it was well written and well performed.
Then someone pointed out those similarities, and I despise the album. It's the worst album ever written by humans.
It's technically impossible to enjoy an album that is, in part, an ode to another album.
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I agree with the similarities of the overall album structure and within the structure of those pair of songs: PMU/OTBoA, AD/TITL, Metropolis/Outcry, UaGM/LNF, WFS-LTL/FFH-BAI. I don’t see any correlation between BMUBMD, BiTS, BTS and any song on I&W.
Those similarities are many and I also believe it was intentional and, like of you already speculated, maybe with the intention to make an album that would be certainly very well received for all the fan base and even for the more occasional fans.
But to me, the most impressive thing of it, it is that DT really suceeded to make an album so fresh, original and inspired and still having as a guide the blueprint of an album already done. It's a bit contraditory, but in that sense, they managed to be incredibly creative IMO!
Well, I think the reason why it is so fresh, original, and inspired is because they did NOT use the blueprint of I&W as a guide. They referenced and gave nods to I&W, but that is different from using it as a "guide" or "blueprint." And I think that is an important distinction.
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I too am of the belief that this was intentional. Here's what I posted regarding when I chatted with JP after a show back in Sept. 2011:
Has anyone yet discussed the use of previous song charts for the writing of a number of the ADTOE tracks with the band? Curious if the band has addressed this and provided some illumation on this subject.
I actually asked JP about it when I saw them in September, and his reply was actually that ADToE inspired IaW. Of course that threw me for a loop for a split second until I realized he was joking with me, and then I chimed in that they must have used a time machine for that...Rush's time machine (since we had been talking about Rush earlier). Had a good laugh about it, tho not much else was said about the topic that I remember.
So without giving me a direct answer, it was as if he was implying that it had been done. Perhaps this is what Bosk was referring to about JP being elusive in answering questions about the similarities?
Not even considering this brief exchange I had with JP, keep in mind that it's one thing for a single song to share the same or extremely similar song structure, but it's another thing when several of the songs do so between 2 albums. Even without looking at Thiago's detailed analysis, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to hear the similarities. If it were true that it was a situation of them simply using the same songwriting techniques and yielding the same results, then I would imagine someone like Thiago would be analyzing, picking apart and reporting each song where DT was ripping off another one of their songs, just as he did with OtBoA, and later, the rest of ADToE. But as far as I know, he never did that before or after ADToE - someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
What's interesting to note is something that MP mentioned in 2004. When asked if the band would ever consider just using DT albums as inspiration corner to create a classic DT album instead of other artist/band albums, he said:
I think every time we make a record, we want it to be a classic Dream Theater record. That’s our goal every time. Every time we make a Dream Theater record, we’re trying to be true to ourselves while still progressing and experimenting with new things. That’s the way every album we ever made has been, and will be. But that being said, we would never make a record with the mindset “let’s try to re-do this” or use Images and Words or Awake as inspiration corner – we don’t ever want to repeat ourselves. In fact, we would use those more as references for things not to do, because we’ve already done them! There’s been times where we have looked at our past records and said “wait – we’ve already done that – we can’t do that again.” So if anything, those earlier albums are not so much an influence, they’re more of a guideline for us to not repeat ourselves.
I think what MP said, specifically the bolded part, shows that they put forth a specific effort to always do different things. Maybe it was just MP pushing forward that idea, or maybe the rest of the band was in full agreement with that mentality back then.
What I am most curious about is the thought process that led them to using the song structures of IaW songs as a basis for writing several songs on ADToE. Was it just a matter of them trying to get the creative juices flowing into writing a "classic" DT album that they examined some of the song structures? Did they try to write a new song based on the song structure of one of the old songs just as a challenge (similar to the Stream of Consciousness songwriting contest in 2003)? Or was it actually something more dubious as Thiago implied? Given that the guys in the band (besides MP) know how meticulous, methodical and detail-oriented many of their fans are and that many of them are musicians, I can't imagine they actually believed they could pull the wool over everyone's eyes and that no one would notice the similarities, so I doubt their intentions were of a dubious nature.
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I agree with the similarities of the overall album structure and within the structure of those pair of songs: PMU/OTBoA, AD/TITL, Metropolis/Outcry, UaGM/LNF, WFS-LTL/FFH-BAI. I don’t see any correlation between BMUBMD, BiTS, BTS and any song on I&W.
Those similarities are many and I also believe it was intentional and, like of you already speculated, maybe with the intention to make an album that would be certainly very well received for all the fan base and even for the more occasional fans.
But to me, the most impressive thing of it, it is that DT really suceeded to make an album so fresh, original and inspired and still having as a guide the blueprint of an album already done. It's a bit contraditory, but in that sense, they managed to be incredibly creative IMO!
Well, I think the reason why it is so fresh, original, and inspired is because they did NOT use the blueprint of I&W as a guide. They referenced and gave nods to I&W, but that is different from using it as a "guide" or "blueprint." And I think that is an important distinction.
Yes, I guess I agree with you. In fact, it's always really hard to me to express my thoughts precisely in english ;D
Anyway, I think DT achieved something really good in a unusual way :tup
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What's interesting to note is something that MP mentioned in 2004. When asked if the band would ever consider just using DT albums as inspiration corner to create a classic DT album instead of other artist/band albums, he said:
I think every time we make a record, we want it to be a classic Dream Theater record. That’s our goal every time. Every time we make a Dream Theater record, we’re trying to be true to ourselves while still progressing and experimenting with new things. That’s the way every album we ever made has been, and will be. But that being said, we would never make a record with the mindset “let’s try to re-do this” or use Images and Words or Awake as inspiration corner – we don’t ever want to repeat ourselves. In fact, we would use those more as references for things not to do, because we’ve already done them! There’s been times where we have looked at our past records and said “wait – we’ve already done that – we can’t do that again.” So if anything, those earlier albums are not so much an influence, they’re more of a guideline for us to not repeat ourselves.
I think what MP said, specifically the bolded part, shows that they put forth a specific effort to always do different things. Maybe it was just MP pushing forward that idea, or maybe the rest of the band was in full agreement with that mentality back then.
That's interesting. I'd have to guess that was more of a MP thing and not a band thing due to the fact that after his departure they were willing to be inspired by their earlier stuff. It's also interesting that I get the sense that most fans on these boards prefer ADTOE to the last couple MP albums when DT was trying to sound like other bands a lot of the time (to me at least). It was super refreshing to hear them look back to "their" sound on ADTOE, IMO.
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A couple of points in response to Scotty's post and the posts that followed:
Regarding Mike's point about them making a conscious effort not to duplicate, I don't think it is necessary or helpful to speculate about whether this was just a Mike thing. I'm going to assume that, for the most part, the band was on the same page about this, and probably still remains so to this day. There may also be varying degrees to which they are on board with it. But that is also largely irrelevant. Even if we assume they were and still are largely on board with that philosophy, there were, in theory, very specific and legitimate reasons for making the conscious decision to depart from that somewhat for that one album. Someone made the Star Wars: The Force Awakens analogy above. I somewhat agree with that. Given the major change in the band, it is logical that a lot of fans would be wondering whether the band would still sound and feel like the band they knew and loved after losing such a major creative force as Mike Portnoy. That's a legitimate concern. As I posted above, I think they consciously wanted to address that by having some intentional nods and callbacks to their past as a way to ensure that the fans felt continuity. And in doing that, I'm not even sure the band would consider that to really be deviating from the mindset that Mike references in the quotation that Scotty provided. And I don't think it should be considered pandering to the fan base either. I think it's just a good PR move and good way to show that they are in touch with the likely concerns of the fan base at that time. And, yes, I am assuming a lot in forming that opinion. But that opinion isn't formed in a vaccuum. It is informed by how I have observed the band interact with the fan base through the years and things they have said to me (or to others in interviews) about how they conduct themselves in general. So I don't think I am too far off, even if some of the specifics may be wrong.
I also have a word about "song structures." I bristled at the idea of them mimicking song structures back when Thiago first published his theories, and I still do. I don't think they mimicked song structures at all. Maybe on a single song. But not more than that. Yes, Thiago posted details with time stamps and tried to make a strong case for similarities. But, IMO, I think his characterizations were too general and that, by his methodology, you could really make the case for a lot of similar song structures that, in reality, really AREN'T that similar. Again, I'm speculating, but I don't believe there was any intent to mimic song structures. What I think they did was to create some intentional (and perhaps some additional unintentional) nods and references to those I&W songs. Some of that may have included some similar structural elements of songs ("Hey, let's do a song with a big, soaring intro with major open chords like the intro to UAGM that goes into a mid-tempo chugging riff in the verse"). But that is different than actually mimicking the entire song structure. Not that there would be anything wrong with that if they did. But I just don't think they did. I think what they did was more subtle than that. And, personally, I think the distinction is important. But this is just my opinion based on what I hear. It is open to debate, and I am certainly willing to concede that others can come to a different conclusion. But this is an area where I think some good discussion can be had. Thiago posted some specific reasons why he thought the way he did. Unfortunately, when I or others attempted to debate and argue against the characterizations he made of certain sections, he wasn't really willing to debate it, and his posts came across as, "No, you're just wrong and I'm right. And you are stupid if you think otherwise."
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They said it many times during that period: they wanted to focus on the DT trademark elements and get rid of some other influences that they felt were taking them too far on the wrong direction (this is me paraphrasing things, of course). For example, it's pretty clear that some songs on OV and SC sound too much like Muse, and there might be a few other DT songs that tried to sound like a couple other bands, specially during the 2000s.
With MP out and many fans unsure if things would work out well after the split, I find it completely reasonable that the band would try to create the most classic DT sounding album as possible, taking out most of the elements that started appearing during the 00s like the harsh vocals and the external inspiration corner (two things MP was known for), as well as the longer song structures for the sake of making a long song, and the copy/paste instrumental sections, to name a few.
With that in mind, what's the most famous and succesful DT album and the one credited for expanding the prog metal genere? IAW. Again, it makes total sense, to me, that they would look back at it to set the course for their new album, not to copy it, but to use a similar approach to writing and arranging the songs, making it as DTish as possible.
Now, as many others have already pointed, the similarities are structural and not musical. They probably took the structural similarities too far in some cases, PMU/OTBOA and UAGM/LNF being the most obvious, but that doesn't prevent me from enjoying these songs or the album as the music itself is very different and it doesn't feel at all like they were trying to copy the songs on IAW or anything like that. The opposite thing happened with Sons of Apollo, for example, where the chorus in Coming Home is pretty much the same as the one in Alive, and it's so obvious that I can't avoid laughing every time I hear one or the other.
The only song on ADTOE that sounds musically similar to another one is BMUBMD with the other song by RED. MP also pointed this out sarcastically, but it's fun how he did the same thing with Muse for Never Enough/Stockholm Syndrome.
So, while these similarities are present and I think they did this on purpose, the end result is so good that, imo, they don't matter. ADTOE is a classic DT album by all means and the general consensus is that it's much better than many of the albums that came before it.
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I still find the conversation absurd. There *are* similarities between some of the songs in the same way there are similarities between A Rite of Passage and Pull Me Under but like that same faulty comparison the "structuring" argument only works if you forgive the fact that an extra section was added over here and a section was taken out over there. Same thing with ADTOE & I&W. I don't doubt that maybe JP said, "For this song, I kinda want the band to come in all at once like on Another Day," and then they switched up literally every other thing except for a verse/chorus/build up section" that literally 30-60% of all songs have.
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I think 5/9 of the album being parallel to I&W is good enough.
It may be that you can't find the connection with the other 4 songs because there IS NO connection.
Inasmuch as the 5 you mentioned were purposely done to mirror I&W, the other 4 could be purposely not connected to I&W, too.
That could very well be true and makes sense.
You know, I used to really love this album. I thought it was well written and well performed.
Then someone pointed out those similarities, and I despise the album. It's the worst album ever written by humans.
It's technically impossible to enjoy an album that is, in part, an ode to another album.
Well, I suppose that's up to you but I would never let someone else change my opinion of the music I like based on just one observation or multiple observations for that matter. You must've liked it for good reason(s). Hold on to that.
I hesitate to bring up Star Wars because it inevitably results in a horror show, but ADTOE feels like the Force Awakens of Dream Theater albums. Just like Force Awakens references A New Hope, ADTOE references I&W. The references are numerous enough that I would forgive one for saying "remake", but I personally think the two have their own distinct feels.
I would be interested to know if DT specifically decided to reference I&W, or if it just kind of happened organically.
I was thinking the same thing, but more along the lines of a new beginning. I&W was a new beginning with JLB joining the band just like ADTOE was with MM joining. I'm thinking maybe that's the connection DT wanted to make between the two albums.
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I still find the conversation absurd. There *are* similarities between some of the songs in the same way there are similarities between A Rite of Passage and Pull Me Under but like that same faulty comparison the "structuring" argument only works if you forgive the fact that an extra section was added over here and a section was taken out over there.
Well, I don't find it so absurd - once the "template" for a song is used, there was nothing to forbid them to be creative about it. What would have been absurd would have been stuff like "Oh no Jordan, we modeled Lost Not Forgotten after Under a Glass Moon, and that song has no piano intro, so the piece you just came up with cannot be in the song, otherwise it would all fall apart" :D
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The album sounded very fresh when I initially heard it. Played it a few times but then it kind of got old really really fast. I revisited the album this last couple of days because of this thread and still sounds very fresh but it really hasn't aged for me well. Not sure if I'm explaining myself correctly.
Anyways, I initially criticized the mix a lot, how it sounded like the speakers were covered with a blanket, but I'm quite enjoying it a lot now for some reason. Very clear and not overly compressed (HD Tracks version), instruments are nicely balanced and separated. One thing that I love about this album is that it's very dynamic and it flows really really well. Breaking All Illusions is the track that I listen the most off this album. Top 10 DT song for me.
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You know, I used to really love this album. I thought it was well written and well performed.
Then someone pointed out those similarities, and I despise the album. It's the worst album ever written by humans.
It's technically impossible to enjoy an album that is, in part, an ode to another album.
I love you.
What's the big whoop? To me, it felt like they wanted to go back to what got them there and sometimes a melody or part can slip into one's consciousnesses.
It never bothered me.
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You know, I used to really love this album. I thought it was well written and well performed.
Then someone pointed out those similarities, and I despise the album. It's the worst album ever written by humans.
It's technically impossible to enjoy an album that is, in part, an ode to another album.
I love you.
You do now. Until you find out that I'm partially inspired by other posters.
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You know, I used to really love this album. I thought it was well written and well performed.
Then someone pointed out those similarities, and I despise the album. It's the worst album ever written by humans.
It's technically impossible to enjoy an album that is, in part, an ode to another album.
I love you.
You do now. Until you find out that I'm partially inspired by other posters.
Life imitates art. I'm down with it.
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Awesome conversation...
I have a few thoughts..
* Even though MP was "out there" with social media and an active forum, it certainly appears that JP has his ear to the ground. He was adamant about making an album to reassure (long time) Dream Theater fans that that are still Dream Theater. He had to know that generally speaking, the previous two albums are generally on the bottom of fans' lists. Even shortly after the ADTOE tour started, JP saw the criticisms of having The Great Debate in there and they dropped it from the set..
* You look up Dream Theater in the dictionary and the definition reads Images And Words. I think it's not ridiculous to think that it was at best inspiration and at worst a blueprint. But I feel like they wanted to accomplish a couple of things. Let's start the album in this vain. Let's have a song like Metropolis that has a crazy instrumental section. Let's (basically) end the album with a thoughtful long song like Learning To Live. And then from there, the album just kind of took shape.
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From what I've heard and seen, most of the similarities between the songs are superficial. PMU and OtBoA are probably the best case, but even then the songs are so different in their own rights that the comparison falls apart when you look closer. How they use meters is different, the overall mood is somewhat different, the melodies are different, the arrangements are different, and so on. Do the two albums have some stuff in common? Yes. Is ADToE deliberately based on I&W? Probably not. The albums are too unique to really say that there's any recycling.
Also, I think that the similarities in structure don't ruin ADToE. I mean, look at the SoC contest. The results people sent in sound totally different from the actual song! I think that just shows to go ya that you can make totally unique art using an established structure. Now, someone do me a favor and forward that to Marvin Gaye's label
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For risk of echoing everyone else - Pull Me Under and On the Backs of Angels are too structurally similar for it to be an accident. It'd be fishy on any album, but on a disc with Far from Heaven / Breaking all Illusions, they were definitely doing some kind of deliberate homage.
The bit where the conspiracy theory lost me was "...and therefore ADToE is lazy / repetitive / bad." It'd be like saying Octavarium is lazy because they just wrote all their songs in different keys to fit an octave that already existed. Musically, it is nothing at all like IaW - it sounds more like BCSL (and doesn't *really* sound like that)! It's a neat, subtle reference to the album that launched their careers, that shapes the all-new music without getting in the way of it. The IaW tribute is definitely there and it's neat.
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The IaW tribute is definitely there and it's neat.
Yes.
I actually listened to ADTOE today, for the first time in probably over 5 years and it was quite enjoyable! The vinyl I played was rather bass-heavy though, which muddied Bridges in the Sky especially, but also parts of other songs.
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Once you notice all these similarities you can't unhear it. Do I have a problem with that? Not at all. Lots of bands write songs on same/similar structures and most people don't even notice. Yes, 5 or even 6 songs from ADToE are basically written on I&W structures but it doesn't make them bad at all. If I was to compare these 5 pairs side to side, I'd say Outcry is overall a better executed song than Metropolis. Unpopular opinion, I know, but to me Outcry instrumental section feels like it's going somewhere, it's more cohesive. The rest of the songs - I think I like the "originals" better. That said, to me ADToE is the best DT album in 21st century (along with 6DOIT) and certainly the best Mangini-era release.
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People talk about JP being evasive, but I remember an interview where he was asked and pretty much said no. I haven't found it yet, but I'm pretty sure it was a video interview.
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People talk about JP being evasive, but I remember an interview where he was asked and pretty much said no. I haven't found it yet, but I'm pretty sure it was a video interview.
Yeah I remember such interview. Weird because it's obvious. Same thing with JLB saying he altered his melodies on I&W songs recently to "keep it interesting" without admitting he can't sing them anymore live. And I think there's nothing wrong with any of these.
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I still believe that's pretty dumb to consider that a bad point on ADTOE, just like when this whole thing first came up here.
I think they're only similar structurally, they're similar how Master of Puppets and And Justice for All are similar. Placement of similar vibe songs on both albums, track one is a thrasher, track four has clean verses and distorted choruses then instrumental pieces to close, the albums close with an instrumental track followed by the fastest song on the album, which if that last one existed on RTL would make it also identical in structure to MOP & AJFA.
I can also argue they're similar the way Systematic Chaos & Black Clouds are similar, slice Tuscany in half and these albums would be identical. Especially with the singles pairing Constant Motion/Forsaken to Rite of Passage/Wither.
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Other than this thread, I'd have never thought anything of the two albums having anything in common. I'll guess this was mentioned prior (but not on this thread). The comparison reminds me of this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fogerty_v._Fantasy,_Inc.
Imagine....Dream Theater sounding like Dream Theater. Astonishing! ;)
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I still believe that's pretty dumb to consider that a bad point on ADTOE, just like when this whole thing first came up here.
Yessir, and I would push the envelope and say it's in fact a very good point on the album. Crafty, nifty, elegant and well executed.
It also reinforced my crazy idea (as it was needed) the guys literally live to fock around and challenge themselves in the studio. Whereas other bands (especially nowadays) strike me as going through the recording motions in order to have fun on tour, DT have always smelled like bearing (gracefully and not without fun) the touring fatigue in order to finally come back to enjoy themselves jamming and creating inside a room.
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I'm on the side of people that find the similarities pretty obvious on almost every record on the album. I think Tiago could've maybe worded or handled the situation better, but from what I can remember his analysis was pretty spot on.
I still quite like ADTOE despite thinking that DT chose to go the route that they did. Definitely an interesting way to write an album and especially one that was a new beginning.
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They may be obvious to many DT fans who have more musical knowledge than the average person. I don't recognize any similarities. And I'd just as soon not think that hard when listening to either album to try and pick them out. I prefer to not know how the sausage is made, so to speak. If someone wants to break down and analyze music that way, that's great if it makes you happy. But I don't think that is really how art is meant to be experienced.
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Also it's not just the music or structures, but it's also (like Mangini would say) the toooooone ;D For small instance a groove based tom intro along with a clean elec guitar to begin the album. A key lead melody over the top of that crescendos eventually into a Metallica style chuggy riff where the keys entirely leave for a moment before returning for a staccato-y part before verse beginning.
That's a small example Of how I might hear things on album when comparing to I&W. I can definitely hear album without thinking about that stuff though thankfully :tup
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I must've slept through the arpeggiated intro to Images and Words every time I heard the album...
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I must've slept through the arpeggiated intro to Images and Words every time I heard the album...
Ok you're right it's just a couple of notes... 😁 Thought it still counted. My bad if not.
There took that word out of my post...
Edit: Yea broken chord I think would apply to PMU, where OTBOA would be more of a classic arpeggiated riff. Good call.
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That actually helps make my point. When I listen to music, I don't hear
For small instance a groove based tom intro along with a clean elec guitar to begin the album. A key lead melody over the top of that crescendos eventually into a Metallica style chuggy riff where the keys entirely leave for a moment before returning for a staccato-y part before verse beginning.
I don't even know what half of that means. I may hear all that without knowing what things are called. But I don't hear it like that. If that makes sense.
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That actually helps make my point. When I listen to music, I don't hear
For small instance a groove based tom intro along with a clean elec guitar to begin the album. A key lead melody over the top of that crescendos eventually into a Metallica style chuggy riff where the keys entirely leave for a moment before returning for a staccato-y part before verse beginning.
I don't even know what half of that means. I may hear all that without knowing what things are called. But I don't hear it like that. If that makes sense.
It completely does make sense, and I don't think you're wrong :tup ADTOE is amazing. 99% of time I listen to ADTOE those thoughts aren't in my mind. Just loving the music.
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I've always found OTBOA, LNF and BAI in particular to be extremely similar to their I&W counterparts, to the point of undeniability - with the exception being that LNF starts with that long piano intro first...
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Quite a coincidence that this topic re-surfaced on the forums, as I was catching up with a friend at lunch last week and brought up this very same thing. Nice to read some additional thoughts and background after I was trying to recall the conversations from when ADToE was released.
The one thing I haven't seen mentioned in this latest thread that I *believe* I remember from when it was originally discussed - didn't Portnoy himself come out and say something along these lines after it was released? Or am I imagining that?
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The one thing I haven't seen mentioned in this latest thread that I *believe* I remember from when it was originally discussed - didn't Portnoy himself come out and say something along these lines after it was released? Or am I imagining that?
He did. IIRC, he had two posts, one echoing Thiago's opinions saying he thought the same thing and that this was them trying to rewrite the past, and also commented on the similarities between BMUBMD and Feed the Machine by RED.
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The one thing I haven't seen mentioned in this latest thread that I *believe* I remember from when it was originally discussed - didn't Portnoy himself come out and say something along these lines after it was released? Or am I imagining that?
He did. IIRC, he had two posts, one echoing Thiago's opinions saying he thought the same thing and that this was them trying to rewrite the past, and also commented on the similarities between BMUBMD and Feed the Machine by RED.
Which was hilarious because I remember him being oh so touchy numerous times during his tenure when fans made the "this new DT song sounds like x-song" connection, but the second the band did it when he wasn't in the band anymore, it was suddenly an issue. He was pretty bitter at the time, though, and I am sure he hated seeing the first DT album without him getting such positive reaction from the collective fanbase, so him lashing out in some fashion was almost to be expected, given his personality.
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But to this day, I still don't know how to connect the remaining songs.
So, what do you guys see?
Someone has mentioned that "This is the life" mirrors "Another day" in some ways:
- Their intros feature accoustic arpeggios followed by a guitar solo (which starts at the same moment as the drums/bass.)
- The first notes in the solo of "AD" are B, A#, G#, D# - the III, II, I and V degrees of the song's key. The first ones in "TITL" are B, F#, E and G - the V, II, I and III degrees of the song's key. (That might be a stretch, but the degrees certainly are the same - almost inverted.)
- The verses feature piano prominently, no drums, and some "delicate" guitar. (They are not harmonics, but I don't know the name of that guitar effect.)
- Towards the end, the last chorus appears in it's heaviest version.
- After the last chorus, you hear the intro's arpeggios once again backing a solo that's twice as many bars as the one in the intro.
Of course, there are obvious differences between the songs - they are not the same keys and time signatures, and they don't end on the same degree ("TITL" ends in the tonic, whereas "AD" doesn't.) But maybe that's another pair you can try connecting.
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Nobody ever said they ripped off I&W when The Count of Tuscany's intro is literally just a different sequence of the notes from Another Day's intro... just my funny little observation
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Nobody ever said they ripped off I&W when The Count of Tuscany's intro is literally just a different sequence of the notes from Another Day's intro... just my funny little observation
I just mentioned all of that because Bosk was wondering about what other connections he could make between Images & Words and A dramatic turn of events.
The intro in "The Count of Tuscany" is indeed much more similar to "Another day" than the one in "This is the life". (In fact, that's how it was easier for me to learn to play "AD"!) Apart from that (and the fact that they share keys), I don't think any of the other similarities apply for "TCOT".
Besides, "TCOT" is almost 3 times as long as "TITL", and quickly begins changing styles (including a long, fast heavy-metal section, and an atmospheric instrumental a couple of minutes long); whereas "AD" is more or less a short ballad - just like "TITL".
Now that you brought it up: that intro in "TCOT" is so cool! It's one of the first things I play when I feel like practicing a bit. Still to this day, I hear it as 3/4, so I love it that you also get to hear it in 6/8 during the outro.
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ADToE is just as creative as any other DT album.. As many have said, is not the first time they do certain song with similar structure than other song in their catalogue; the fact that there are 5/6 of those certain songs in the same album is just a curiosity the album has, but from there to saying things like that Thiago dude was saying, there's a world of distance.. Even more if we realize we're talking of probably one of the bands that has more different song structure in the history of music, and he and his followers should know this very well..
I don't really see or think about it aside from making jokes like "oh uagm and lost not forgotten have jp playing octaves that move up and down. same song confirmed" (Which, to be clear, is not to poke fun at anyone in particular, it's to poke fun at people who take the perceived similarities too far)
They're not "perceived", but pretty obvious similarities and, in any case, the ones that took it too far were the band themselves, and not us who are merely describing what they did.. Is very clear what they did (although not that clear why they did it), and also is very obvious, as most here in this thread have already pointed out, that it's not just one random similarity that these songs have in common, but many and they're quite evident..
From what I've heard and seen, most of the similarities between the songs are superficial. PMU and OtBoA are probably the best case, but even then the songs are so different in their own rights that the comparison falls apart when you look closer. How they use meters is different, the overall mood is somewhat different, the melodies are different, the arrangements are different, and so on. Do the two albums have some stuff in common? Yes. Is ADToE deliberately based on I&W? Probably not. The albums are too unique to really say that there's any recycling.
I agree but also disagree.. Of course you cannot make an album consisting of five or six songs that, besides of having very similar and obvious structures than other five or six songs off another previous album of yours, also repeats their respective melodies, scales, exact arrengements, etc.. That would be even more absurd than MirrorMask's joking example about them excluding the LNF's intro just because UAG doesn't have one.. So, the fact that they haven't done an even greater ridicule like that doesn't mean that there are no obvious structural coincidences in the two sets of songs.. Better than that, just do an acoustic (or whatever) version of that older album and that's it.. How would ever an artist make that other thing?..
If someone wants to break down and analyze music that way, that's great if it makes you happy. But I don't think that is really how art is meant to be experienced.
Nah, at least *I* (and I see it's the case of most here) have never let this thing influence my experience while listening to any of the two albums.. I didn't analyze the similarities every time I was actually listening to the songs; after a while you already know how they are, and can just imaginarily note the similar structures.. But even if you need to listen to the songs to do that, then that's not an artistic experience at all; is just a different kind of experience..
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I hesitate to bring up Star Wars because it inevitably results in a horror show, but ADTOE feels like the Force Awakens of Dream Theater albums. Just like Force Awakens references A New Hope, ADTOE references I&W. The references are numerous enough that I would forgive one for saying "remake", but I personally think the two have their own distinct feels.
I would be interested to know if DT specifically decided to reference I&W, or if it just kind of happened organically.
If ADTOE is the Force Awakens of Dream Theater then what is Dream Theater's "The last Jedah?"
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Judging by certain fans reactions : the astonishing. Which makes the s/t rogue one .
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Judging by certain fans reactions : the astonishing. Which makes the s/t rogue one .
What is s/t?
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Judging by certain fans reactions : the astonishing. Which makes the s/t rogue one .
What is s/t?
He was probably referring to the self-titled album. (aka DT12)
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It’s a common acronym: https://www.acronymfinder.com/Self_Titled-(also-seen-as-ST)-(S%2FT).html
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It’s a common acronym: https://www.acronymfinder.com/Self_Titled-(also-seen-as-ST)-(S%2FT).html
Gotcha thats what I thought and thanks for that link. Hah, Me and my friends and wife call that The "illumination Theory album"!
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It’s a common acronym: https://www.acronymfinder.com/Self_Titled-(also-seen-as-ST)-(S%2FT).html
Gotcha thats what I thought and thanks for that link. Hah, Me and my friends and wife call that The "illumination Theory album"!
Well, IIRC, JP said once that Illumination Theory was going to be the album title untill they decided to make it a self-titled.
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It’s a common acronym: https://www.acronymfinder.com/Self_Titled-(also-seen-as-ST)-(S%2FT).html
Gotcha thats what I thought and thanks for that link. Hah, Me and my friends and wife call that The "illumination Theory album"!
Well, IIRC, JP said once that Illumination Theory was going to be the album title untill they decided to make it a self-titled.
oh cool!
Now I am going to continue to call it Illumination Album among my peers!