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General => General Music Discussion => Topic started by: a51502112 on May 17, 2018, 06:57:34 AM
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In terms of success and wealth... Excluding Producers, luck, etc...
I was just thinking about Lars/Metallica. IMO all members owe it to Hetfield for their success. Sure Hammett wrote the riff for Enter Sandman, and in their prime, he was a great player, but frankly, he's awful now. Ulrich was always pretty basic and he too is not very good these days. But I think because of his promotion of the band and arranging, he gets a pass.
Care to add?
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- Anybody in Foo Fighters who isn't Dave Grohl
- Ringo Starr
- Anyone who hasn't worked with Gene Simmons
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- Anybody in Foo Fighters who isn't Dave Grohl
- Ringo Starr
- Anyone who hasn't worked with Gene Simmons
:lol
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- Anyone who hasn't worked with Gene Simmons
:rollin :lol
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- Anybody in Foo Fighters who isn't Dave Grohl
- Ringo Starr
- Anyone who hasn't worked with Gene Simmons
Nailed it!
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In terms of success and wealth... Excluding Producers, luck, etc...
I was just thinking about Lars/Metallica. IMO all members owe it to Hetfield for their success. Sure Hammett wrote the riff for Enter Sandman, and in their prime, he was a great player, but frankly, he's awful now. Ulrich was always pretty basic and he too is not very good these days. But I think because of his promotion of the band and arranging, he gets a pass.
Care to add?
Lars deserves every bit of success and wealth that he has earned. Kirk wrote the Sandman riff, but Lars arranged it and said "hey, extend that out three more times" and he crafted that riff into what you hear today. Add his song arrangement skills to all of his business sense, and the fact that he took on Napster well before the industry collapsed due to piracy and you have one very smart, very shrewd cookie.
One doesn't have to be the world's best musician with respect to their instrument to deserve credit for what they have achieved.
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In terms of success and wealth... Excluding Producers, luck, etc...
I was just thinking about Lars/Metallica. IMO all members owe it to Hetfield for their success. Sure Hammett wrote the riff for Enter Sandman, and in their prime, he was a great player, but frankly, he's awful now. Ulrich was always pretty basic and he too is not very good these days. But I think because of his promotion of the band and arranging, he gets a pass.
Care to add?
Lars deserves every bit of success and wealth that he has earned. Kirk wrote the Sandman riff, but Lars arranged it and said "hey, extend that out three more times" and he crafted that riff into what you hear today. Add his song arrangement skills to all of his business sense, and the fact that he took on Napster well before the industry collapsed due to piracy and you have one very smart, very shrewd cookie.
One doesn't have to be the world's best musician with respect to their instrument to deserve credit for what they have achieved.
Agreed.
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In terms of success and wealth... Excluding Producers, luck, etc...
I was just thinking about Lars/Metallica. IMO all members owe it to Hetfield for their success. Sure Hammett wrote the riff for Enter Sandman, and in their prime, he was a great player, but frankly, he's awful now. Ulrich was always pretty basic and he too is not very good these days. But I think because of his promotion of the band and arranging, he gets a pass.
Care to add?
Lars deserves every bit of success and wealth that he has earned. Kirk wrote the Sandman riff, but Lars arranged it and said "hey, extend that out three more times" and he crafted that riff into what you hear today. Add his song arrangement skills to all of his business sense, and the fact that he took on Napster well before the industry collapsed due to piracy and you have one very smart, very shrewd cookie.
One doesn't have to be the world's best musician with respect to their instrument to deserve credit for what they have achieved.
Ya. If you read, I said that.
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What about Ronnie Wood?
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In terms of success and wealth... Excluding Producers, luck, etc...
I was just thinking about Lars/Metallica. IMO all members owe it to Hetfield for their success. Sure Hammett wrote the riff for Enter Sandman, and in their prime, he was a great player, but frankly, he's awful now. Ulrich was always pretty basic and he too is not very good these days. But I think because of his promotion of the band and arranging, he gets a pass.
Care to add?
Lars Ulrich is the reason Metallica even exists and got to where they are now :lol
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What about Ronnie Wood?
Yeah, and Brad Whitford too.
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What about Ronnie Wood?
Yeah, and Brad Whitford too.
Krist Novoselic?
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What about Ronnie Wood?
Nah, he had a legit career with Jeff Beck and The Small Faces. He wouldn't have toured stadia, but then again, neither would Jagger or Richard without the other.
I strenuously object to both Lars and Ringo Starr on this list. Lars was the hustle behind Metallica in the early years; I don't think he has the pure musical talent that Hetfield does, but in terms of his marketing, business sense, arranging skills, and public relations, there is no Metallica without Lars. As for Starr, he may not be "Mike Mangini", but then again, he didn't have to be. He held his own for ten years with three of the best musicians this planet has ever known (and in my estimation, the greatest living musician on the planet right now, Sir Paul McCartney).
And Kattleox can blow me. :)
Serious answers:
- Gilby Clark
- Ian Hill (though I've come to understand that he does a lot of behind the scenes stuff)
- Michael Anthony (not to say he sucks - he killed it when I saw him with Chickenfoot - but Different Kind of Truth tells me he's not integral to VH)
- Tony Kaye (we only know him because of Wakeman, Moraz, et al. In my opinion he can't hold a candle to them)
- Peter Criss (he had three good years, and then became a liability)
- Donna Godchaux (in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I tend to collect this era of the Dead, but I defy you to find me even ONE performance that warrants that. ONE.)
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What about Ronnie Wood?
Yeah, and Brad Whitford too.
Krist Novoselic?
I had to look that up, but yeah. :lol
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What about Ronnie Wood?
Yeah, and Brad Whitford too.
Krist Novoselic?
Honestly, in my opinion? You could put any of the Nirvana members here; yes, even Grohl. He's no doubt earned his status with Foo Fighters, but with Nirvana? I think they all got lucky.
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Charlie Watts?
Even though he has that special back-beat type thing going on,
put any other rock n roll drummer on that stool. Would the Stones still have been so successful? I think yes.
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That's twice in a week you've told me to blow you, Stadler. I'm telling your wife. :hat
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What about Ronnie Wood?
Yeah, and Brad Whitford too.
Nope, definitely not. Joe Perry is the more extrovert player and takes more of the spotlight, but Whitford is integral to the groove and rhythm of Aerosmith and he plays some cool solos too.
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Charlie Watts?
Even though he has that special back-beat type thing going on,
put any other rock n roll drummer on that stool. Would the Stones still have been so successful? I think yes.
I disagree with that. I think Keef would too. Plus, even if just for this story Charlie deserves a pass: Mick Jagger wanted to record - depending on the version, it was the south of France in '70, '71, recording Exile On Main St. or Paris in '77 recording "Some Girls" - and Mick, hammered, said "where's my drummer". Watts got word, showered, shaved, put on a suit, went to Mick's room, punched him in the face and said "I'm not YOUR drummer, you're MY singer. Don't ever forget that!"
(There are, to my count, at least four versions of this story; the only common facts are that Mick said "my drummer" and Watts subsequently punched him in the face. As with all things "Stones", who knows how much of the rest is true or not.)
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Janick Gers.
I used to cite Malcolm Young and Michael Anthony as the best examples, but people would get really pissed off about the Malcolm thing, and Anthony's vocals made him an asset to VH. Besides, Janick wins this easily.
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Serious answers:
- Donna Godchaux (in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I tend to collect this era of the Dead, but I defy you to find me even ONE performance that warrants that. ONE.)
I've got mixed feelings about Donna Godchaux. For the most part, I think her vocals enhanced quite a few of their songs (Fire on the Mountain, Scarlet Begonias). But there are times when I need to clamp both hands over ears (Playing in the Band). Overall though, I do prefer the Godchaux era of the band, Keith included.
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I always thought Larry Mullen Jr. was the luckiest dude ever. He's in one of the biggest bands of all time but nobody really knows who the hell he is and he can probably walk around without being harassed a majority of the time whereas Bono and The Edge are much more visible. Plus the drumming for U2 is really easy on the body.
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John & Chuck Panozzo... they just happened to be neighbors with Dennis DeYoung.
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Re: Charlie Watts, and people like him: He may have found himself in a fortunate situation. But he still 1) Made the most of the opportunity and, possibly more importantly, 2) he has shown up and delivered for for the better part of 50 years. Which gets back to point number 1. Yeah you may have stumbled in to something by sheer luck, but what you make of it is what matters.
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Janick Gers.
Hell no. He got in the band and earned Steve's trust enough to not be dismissed when it was time to go back with Bruce. After the reunion he became more and more involved in the songwriting helping to compose many great songs. And all around he seems to be a nice and funny guy who, must have read it on a Maiden board, is actually a diplomat within the band trying always to bridge the different positions of the other more strong willed members.
Say what you want about the way he plays the solos or how he behaves on stage, but Janick Gers is damn important for Iron Maiden.
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I always thought Larry Mullen Jr. was the luckiest dude ever. He's in one of the biggest bands of all time but nobody really knows who the hell he is and he can probably walk around without being harassed a majority of the time whereas Bono and The Edge are much more visible. Plus the drumming for U2 is really easy on the body.
He's actually by most accounts the "leader" of the band. I've read many articles that implied pretty strongly that he has sort of veto power on all things U2. If you're going to point fingers toward Dublin, it's Adam Clayton that should get your attention. He writes little, and let's just say that the "eighth note pulse" is not really going to challenge Geddy Lee all that much.
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How 'bout this?
Alec John Such (Bon Jovi, bass)
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Janick Gers.
Hell no. He got in the band and earned Steve's trust enough to not be dismissed when it was time to go back with Bruce. After the reunion he became more and more involved in the songwriting helping to compose many great songs. And all around he seems to be a nice and funny guy who, must have read it on a Maiden board, is actually a diplomat within the band trying always to bridge the different positions of the other more strong willed members.
Say what you want about the way he plays the solos or how he behaves on stage, but Janick Gers is damn important for Iron Maiden.
I sort of lean to el Barto on this. I know that Steve said "If it doesn't work out with the three guitars, Adrian is gone" but I think Maiden would exist quite nicely and not miss a beat without Jannick. Doesn't mean he sucks, but for me, "Iron Maiden guitars" = "Dave Murray" so I could live quite nicely without the "Cinderella Guitar Swinging" on stage. That he's a nice guy matters not. Mike Anthony is by all accounts the nicest guy in the world. VH moved on quite nicely without him.
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Serious answers:
- Donna Godchaux (in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. I tend to collect this era of the Dead, but I defy you to find me even ONE performance that warrants that. ONE.)
I've got mixed feelings about Donna Godchaux. For the most part, I think her vocals enhanced quite a few of their songs (Fire on the Mountain, Scarlet Begonias). But there are times when I need to clamp both hands over ears (Playing in the Band). Overall though, I do prefer the Godchaux era of the band, Keith included.
Oh, not me. Though you hit the nail on the head with the "PitB" input. I've been getting the quarterly Dave's Pick's, and they are great to listen to while chilling in the house, or cooking, and my wife more or less doesn't say a word no matter what I play. The only times she's ever offered input was when she was wailing like a dying cat.
Having said that, I like Keith better than all the other keyboard players combined, so if that was the price to be paid, so be it. I'll take it.
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Janick Gers.
I used to cite Malcolm Young and Michael Anthony as the best examples, but people would get really pissed off about the Malcolm thing, and Anthony's vocals made him an asset to VH. Besides, Janick wins this easily.
I’d go with Blaze rather than Jannick. Blaze joined about the biggest metal band on the planet with no talent other than being British and a nice guy. His career now, for what it is, would not exist but for that stint in Maiden.
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As a drummer I always had the opinion that to be successful and have a long lasting career as a drummer you either become a well rounded session drummer or be apart of a band that's famous. The latter dosen't necessarily mean you have to be very good so in a sense I always say that any drummer that isn't a hard working session musician but still can maintain a steady career is pretty much lucky in my book.
Then again you can always go my way and choose the third option and become a drum teacher, although the big bucks dosen't come that easy. :P
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Fab Morvan and Rob Pilatus. If you have to look it up, the jokes on you. :lol
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That he's a nice guy matters not.
Sure it does. If you are a prick, your chances of getting a gig, or any job for that matter, diminish greatly.
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I always thought Larry Mullen Jr. was the luckiest dude ever. He's in one of the biggest bands of all time but nobody really knows who the hell he is and he can probably walk around without being harassed a majority of the time whereas Bono and The Edge are much more visible. Plus the drumming for U2 is really easy on the body.
He's actually by most accounts the "leader" of the band. I've read many articles that implied pretty strongly that he has sort of veto power on all things U2. If you're going to point fingers toward Dublin, it's Adam Clayton that should get your attention. He writes little, and let's just say that the "eighth note pulse" is not really going to challenge Geddy Lee all that much.
That's pretty interesting. I always thought he and Adam were basically "along for the ride" and basically puppets to the wishes of The Edge (who I assumed was the de facto leader). I wonder why drummers seem to be bandleaders a lot. Maybe it's because they don't generally write the music so they have a bit more objectivity?
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That he's a nice guy matters not.
Sure it does. If you are a prick, your chances of getting a gig, or any job for that matter, diminish greatly.
Maybe this is the explanation for all the "lucky" musicians being in world famous bands with no apparent outstanding talent. Maybe they endured in the band because of how their personalities glued well with the others, or how they keep in check the others, or even of off-stage stuff they take care of. Maybe from the outside we ask "how lucky is this dude to have been in the same room with Top Musician A and Top Musician B" but maybe in the inside dynamics of the band, their niceness or general attitude towards the band and their inner workings is vital, and more important than having a better musician who doesn't get along with the rest of the band.
For example we should ask Deep Purple who they prefer to have in the band, guitar ultimate god Ritchie Blackmore or reliable guy Steve Morse (not taking a diss at Blackmore, just considering the situation of the band as it happened).
Maybe it's a situation like "how come that hot girl is with that plain ordinary dude".... maybe there's a good reason for that, and the reason may also not be a fat bank account or a huge dong either. we think the girl is stupid for having fallen for that ordinary dude, but she knows why that dude is better than many other hotter guys.
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I used to say this a lot over at mp.com and again when Derek was pontificating about the relative merits of the new "Sons Of Apollo". I think bands are like sports teams. Anyone who's ever played any significant amount of sports knows that you cannot have a team of 12 Lebrons, or 22 Gretsky's (actually, he may be the exception to this rule) or 55 Lawrence Taylors. You need people to fill the roles that are necessary for a successful band, and it's often how the various roles intersect where a band is TRULY made. I don't think anyone would sincerely argue that Jagger - with his rudimentary knowledge of the blues, but exceedingly deep understanding of how to communicate those blues to the masses - is better off without Richards - with his deep knowledge of the blues and literally no clue how to focus that knowledge in a way palatable to the general public.
And to make matters worse, it's often not even evident to the principals themselves. Gene Simmons prides himself on being Warren Buffet, Paul McCartney and Cary Grant all rolled up into one, but Paul Stanley is the leader of Kiss, PERIOD. Paul tempers Gene and brings out the best in him, both live and in the studio. The Beatles as well; John was the earthy, authentic gritty one, and he put a little vinegar in Paul's sugar. When they collaborated, you got "We Can Work It Out" and "A Day In The Life". When left to his own devices, Paul gave us "When I'm Sixty-Four" and "Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da".
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Oh, oh, oh. Emppu from Nightwish. Guy has the easiest 'metal guitarist' gig on the planet.
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A lot of online Beatles fans get really defensive regarding any slight against Ringo, but let's be honest, landing in a band with two of the best songwriters ever is, by definition, extremely lucky, especially since he never wrote songs (or maybe he wrote one or two, I can't remember).
Re: U2, Mullen and Clayton are definitely pretty lucky, although Clayton has a surprising number of sneaky good bass lines.
I would throw Nick Mason into the "really lucky" pile as well.
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Fab Morvan and Rob Pilatus. If you have to look it up, the jokes on you. :lol
Girl, you know it's. Girl, you know it's. Girl, you know it's. Repeat that about 50x times. That's the only thing I know about them.
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Janick Gers.
I used to cite Malcolm Young and Michael Anthony as the best examples, but people would get really pissed off about the Malcolm thing, and Anthony's vocals made him an asset to VH. Besides, Janick wins this easily.
I’d go with Blaze rather than Jannick. Blaze joined about the biggest metal band on the planet with no talent other than being British and a nice guy. His career now, for what it is, would not exist but for that stint in Maiden.
I'd actually cite Blaze as one of the unluckiest guys in rock. He did a stint in Maiden where he was pretty strongly disliked. He was asked to do something he wasn't really cut out to do, and despite TXF being a great album it did very little to his career. Along with his inability to replace Bruce, he spent a whole lot of time sick as hell, which hurt is performances even more. When Bruce returned they unceremoniously dumped him. In the meantime the dude's written quite a few very strong albums, and his stint in Maiden hasn't earned him any new fans. I saw him put on a great show last year for all of 20 people and he was pretty sporting about it. I've no doubt that Janick is a great guy, he always struck me as such, but I think the same of Blaze, who tours in a van and hangs out after gigs to meet his fans, as well as responding personally to any post, email or tweet sent his way.
In the meantime, Janick is unnecessary and occasionally problematic. Most people make my list for having a simple gig and not getting in the way. I often leave Maiden shows thinking he didn't do anything other than muddy up the sound. Frankly, 3 guitars don't work at the levels they play at. I've got no problem whatsoever with his songwriting or his playing. Dude's pretty good at both. I'm actually real cool with the guy and have no knocks against him outside of the live thing. That doesn't change the fact that he's as much a liability to one of my favorite bands as he is an asset.
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How 'bout this?
Alec John Such (Bon Jovi, bass)
Came in to post this!
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Oh, oh, oh. Emppu from Nightwish. Guy has the easiest 'metal guitarist' gig on the planet.
tell that to the Linkin Park guitarist
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I think every band/musician who breaks big is extremely lucky. You can have the talent (but that is not really necessary) and you can put in hard work (that is more important than talent imo), but you have to be at the right place at the right time to be successful, and that is not something you can control. You either have the luck or not. There are legions of great musicians and bands out there that can't make a (decent) living out of their music because they are not lucky.
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Janick is unnecessary
That’s not true at all. He wrote or helped write some of Maiden’s best post-reunion songs. Sure he’s pretty sloppy live, but without him the post-reunion albums would probably have been nowhere near as good as they are.
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I think every band/musician who breaks big is extremely lucky. You can have the talent (but that is not really necessary) and you can put in hard work (that is more important than talent imo), but you have to be at the right place at the right time to be successful, and that is not something you can control.
Basically Dream Theater? one year trying to find a good singer and then Pull Me Under being liked by MTV.
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I think every band/musician who breaks big is extremely lucky. You can have the talent (but that is not really necessary) and you can put in hard work (that is more important than talent imo), but you have to be at the right place at the right time to be successful, and that is not something you can control.
Basically Dream Theater? one year trying to find a good singer and then Pull Me Under being liked by MTV.
Something like this. If MTV wouldn't have picked up Pull Me Under who knows if they would have carried on or if they would have the respective success they now have.
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In that sense, isn't the whole genre of progressive metal lucky that they've had Dream Theater as their 'ambassadors' since 1992? The definitely helped shape the genre and they paved the way for many other bands in the progressive metal genre, DT clones included.
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Disclaimer: I'm a DLR era VH fanboy.
If David Lee Roth had not joined Van Halen, do you think he would have otherwise "made it"?
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Disclaimer: I'm a DLR era VH fanboy.
If David Lee Roth had not joined Van Halen, do you think he would have otherwise "made it"?
We could flip that around and ask, "If David Lee Roth had not joined Van Halen, do you think the band would have otherwise made it?"
As much as Eddie's guitar was the thing that wowed everyone at the start, I do think Roth's vocals and party lyrics made the songs very musical, as opposed to them being just guitar showcases for EVH.
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Ozzy, not the best vocalist, can't write a song to save his life.
But was part of the legendary Sabbath golden era.
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The VH thing goes definitely both ways, without a larger than life frontman EVH would still be an underground musician, heralded as a guitar hero, but probably not known to the general public.
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Ozzy, not the best vocalist, can't write a song to save his life.
But was part of the legendary Sabbath golden era.
Agreed. And when he went solo, he was pretty much carried by Sharon and his gunslinger guitarists.
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I think every band/musician who breaks big is extremely lucky. You can have the talent (but that is not really necessary) and you can put in hard work (that is more important than talent imo), but you have to be at the right place at the right time to be successful, and that is not something you can control. You either have the luck or not. There are legions of great musicians and bands out there that can't make a (decent) living out of their music because they are not lucky.
While reading through this thread, that was kinda my thought as well. Talent and hard work are essential but not a promise or guarantee of anything. I'd venture that luck comes into play with the vast majority of household names.
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Disclaimer: I'm a DLR era VH fanboy.
If David Lee Roth had not joined Van Halen, do you think he would have otherwise "made it"?
We could flip that around and ask, "If David Lee Roth had not joined Van Halen, do you think the band would have otherwise made it?"
As much as Eddie's guitar was the thing that wowed everyone at the start, I do think Roth's vocals and party lyrics made the songs very musical, as opposed to them being just guitar showcases for EVH.
Roth pushed them to work, too. It's different now, because they're "legends", but in the day, they toured and recorded in no small part because Roth encouraged them to. Ed seems very content to make tapes and play for friends in his bunker/studio.
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Disclaimer: I'm a DLR era VH fanboy.
If David Lee Roth had not joined Van Halen, do you think he would have otherwise "made it"?
We could flip that around and ask, "If David Lee Roth had not joined Van Halen, do you think the band would have otherwise made it?"
As much as Eddie's guitar was the thing that wowed everyone at the start, I do think Roth's vocals and party lyrics made the songs very musical, as opposed to them being just guitar showcases for EVH.
I think you're both at least partly right. However,
Without a player of Eddie's caliber at his side, we'd never have heard of DLR.
Because of his talent, Eddie would have been successful without DLR, but he never would have had "Van Halen level" stardom without DLR or someone like him.
I also think Michael Anthony played a big role in Van Halen's most successful years. He was the right guy for that spot in the band, but lots of other guys could have filled the role equally or nearly as well.
The "luckiest" guy in Van Halen might be Alex.
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I think every band/musician who breaks big is extremely lucky. You can have the talent (but that is not really necessary) and you can put in hard work (that is more important than talent imo), but you have to be at the right place at the right time to be successful, and that is not something you can control. You either have the luck or not.
Just the other day I stumbled on YouTube on a short video when Ronnie James Dio was discussing Ritchie Blackmore, and he said something along the lines of "I owe a lot to Ritchie, because he got me famous. I would have gotten there eventually, because I knew I was good, but it would have taken more time without Rainbow".
Just imagine Blackmore going on with Deep Purple... Dio loses the Rainbow window that places him in the perfect position to step in Black Sabbath at the time he did (Ozzy gets fired AND Blackmore wants to be more commercial prompting Dio to leave... think of the odds), and who knows how it would have gone.
If you think about it, while on one hand we're lucky to have all the bands we have, think of all the bands we didn't have. Ever wondered "Man, I'd really like a band like X but with more Y and maybe a little touch of Z".... well, maybe that band COULD have existed but the most talented guitar player of a generation broke his leg, spent a month in bed and missed an audition with another singer who could have ignited a creative fire.... possibilites are endless!
Kinda like if we want to bring it all on a more philosophical and broader term.... we are so lucky that Leonardo, Newton, Beethoven, Einstein and the likes existed, but we got also Hitler and Stalin. Maybe a musician who could have become better than Mozart died in the cradle. Maybe a medicine student who would have went on to discover the cure to cancer died in a car accident. Ok, I'm derailing too much I guess :lol
But maybe keeping it to music only, it could be a nice idea for another thread, "lucky streak of combinations that made great bands possible" and "kind of bands that if they would have existed in a specific time could have been huge".
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XYZ
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Janick Gers.
Hell no. He got in the band and earned Steve's trust enough to not be dismissed when it was time to go back with Bruce. After the reunion he became more and more involved in the songwriting helping to compose many great songs. And all around he seems to be a nice and funny guy who, must have read it on a Maiden board, is actually a diplomat within the band trying always to bridge the different positions of the other more strong willed members.
Say what you want about the way he plays the solos or how he behaves on stage, but Janick Gers is damn important for Iron Maiden.
Agreed.
Early on, I would have said Janick. Of course, he did replace my favorite guitar player so that was a lot to overcome. He also had little melody and just wanked it for the most part.
Since then, the writing credits he has to his name are some of my favorite tracks from the reunion era. The last time I saw Maiden (Final Frontier tour, I think), both myself and a buddy that were always critical of Janick both said that that show was the most controlled and precise we had ever seen Janick. I would like to think that is some of Adrian rubbing off on him.
He has evolved and for that he gets my respect.
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Anyone who gets to record and tour for a living without having to have another job to make ends meet.
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Cliff Williams.