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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: Mebert78 on October 23, 2017, 06:12:26 PM
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I never knew Derek was responsible for those songs, but that's pretty cool if it's the case! Personally, those are my two favorite songs from Falling Into Infinity, and he's right -- they have held up really well over time. He says it at the link below starting at the 9:05 mark.
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nBTtNieuzM&t=626s
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Hell's Kitchen is great!
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He's also primarily responsible for turning me off to Sons Of Apollo.
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He's also primarily responsible for turning me off to Sons Of Apollo.
:rollin
But, seriously, me too.
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A pity you can't separate the music from the musicians. This is like the people who can't enjoy Neal Morse simply because he's Christian and writes religious lyrics sometimes. You don't have to like the person to enjoy the music. I don't like Steven Wilson, but I enjoy his music.
But well.. your loss.
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A pity you can't separate the music from the musicians. This is like the people who can't enjoy Neal Morse simply because he's Christian and writes religious lyrics sometimes. You don't have to like the person to enjoy the music. I don't like Steven Wilson, but I enjoy his music.
But well.. your loss.
I've listened to the album quite a few times, believe me, it's not too much of a loss :biggrin:
Back on topic, though, I think Derek's best moment on FII isn't either HK or LITS, but THAT solo on Trial of Tears. It just gives me the chills. Every time.
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There's plenty of fantastic performances by Derek on Falling into infinity. Even though the album is my least favorite release by Dream Theater, it was never Sherinian's fault. He did a great job on it.
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There's plenty of fantastic performances by Derek on Falling into infinity. Even though the album is my least favorite release by Dream Theater, it was never Sherinian's faul. He did a great job on it.
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A pity you can't separate the music from the musicians. This is like the people who can't enjoy Neal Morse simply because he's Christian and writes religious lyrics sometimes. You don't have to like the person to enjoy the music. I don't like Steven Wilson, but I enjoy his music.
But well.. your loss.
The thing with religious lyrics (as with any other lyrics), if it sounds bad to you, if it makes you cringe, there's not much you can do about it. I'm not too familiar with Neal's work, but I can totally understand people who are ticked off by overly religious themes. I don't ever listen to DT's The Great Debate, because the lyrics come off to me as preachy and pretentious, and are a detriment to the song overall.
Dissing Neal just because he's a Christian would be an entirely different story though, and I don't think that many people boycott his music based on his religious views alone (not accounting for anything else, such as lyrics). I think that's a bit of a straw man, although someone in the GMD just stated that they won't buy anything Billy Sheehan-related on account of him being a Scientologist.
Still, it would be quite hard to completely separate the music from the musician. Taking it to the extreme, could you thoroughly enjoy a neo-Nazi punk band, just because they have some cool guitar playing going on?
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Still, it would be quite hard to completely separate the music from the musician. Taking it to the extreme, could you thoroughly enjoy a neo-Nazi punk band, just because they have some cool guitar playing going on?
This is an interesting point. I've never though about it, most likely because I never came across a band that takes things so extreme. Such bands probably wouldn't be musically in my ballpark either.
There are rare occasions where lyrics influence my disliking of a song. Some of the tracks on Queensryche's Dedicated to chaos would be good examples of that. How can I enjoy a song that talks about "pictures on YouTube"? Every time I hear that, I cringe, even though the music is great.
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No offense to DS, but I find it hard to believe he is primarily responsible for both those songs. Maybe he contributed to the writing of them, but I think primarily responsible seems like a bit of a stretch. I'd be more inclined to think he's primarily responsible for a song like Anna Lee.
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A pity you can't separate the music from the musicians. This is like the people who can't enjoy Neal Morse simply because he's Christian and writes religious lyrics sometimes. You don't have to like the person to enjoy the music. I don't like Steven Wilson, but I enjoy his music.
But well.. your loss.
The thing with religious lyrics (as with any other lyrics), if it sounds bad to you, if it makes you cringe, there's not much you can do about it. I'm not too familiar with Neal's work, but I can totally understand people who are ticked off by overly religious themes. I don't ever listen to DT's The Great Debate, because the lyrics come off to me as preachy and pretentious, and are a detriment to the song overall.
Dissing Neal just because he's a Christian would be an entirely different story though, and I don't think that many people boycott his music based on his religious views alone (not accounting for anything else, such as lyrics). I think that's a bit of a straw man, although someone in the GMD just stated that they won't buy anything Billy Sheehan-related on account of him being a Scientologist.
Still, it would be quite hard to completely separate the music from the musician. Taking it to the extreme, could you thoroughly enjoy a neo-Nazi punk band, just because they have some cool guitar playing going on?
I think the "sometimes" part here is a bit stretching reality. Neal *predominantly* writes religious lyrics, even in his side projects (e.g. Whirlwind). If you know they will rub you the wrong way, there's no point in trying over and over again.
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The religious lyrics/Neal Morse thing is a terrible comparison and we could be here all day and week and month talking about why. Religious lyrics ain't my bag, therefore it's a massive turnoff whenever I try to listen to him, because that's all he fucking sings about. Okay, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but seriously, I hate religious lyrics, even if the music rules I don't want to hear the Jesus talk.
Hell's Kitchen is pretty dope. I dunno if I'd say Lines In The Sand has 'aged' well, it's a cool song, but it's way too damn long. Hollow Years, Hell's Kitchen, and Trial are the best things on that album. Although I'm in the minority of DT fans it seems, I don't think the demos are better than the finished product.
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Lines IN The Sand will always be one of my favorite DT songs.
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FII is my least favorite DT album and part of that is due to the keyboard sound, especially in the solos. DS has much better sounds on SOA, plus the use of the Hammond is nice..
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Hell's Kitchen is pretty dope. I dunno if I'd say Lines In The Sand has 'aged' well, it's a cool song, but it's way too damn long. Hollow Years, Hell's Kitchen, and Trial are the best things on that album. Although I'm in the minority of DT fans it seems, I don't think the demos are better than the finished product.
I agree on the demos vs finished product line.
Also, I never got all the hype about LITS either. I mean, it's a cool song, but it's nowhere near the best DT songs, and, aside from that incredible JP solo, it's not much of a big deal. That keyboard intro is probably the most overrated keyboard part on the DT catalog, and Doug Pinnick ruins the chorus, imo.
Trial of Tears is a much better song on every aspect (to me).
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^^ +1 on all counts except Doug - I actually don't mind him :)
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^^ +1 on all counts except Doug - I actually don't mind him :)
I don't know but I listen to LITS because of Doug. Seriously I like his backing vocals there gives it some variety.
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A pity you can't separate the music from the musicians. This is like the people who can't enjoy Neal Morse simply because he's Christian and writes religious lyrics sometimes. You don't have to like the person to enjoy the music. I don't like Steven Wilson, but I enjoy his music.
But well.. your loss.
The thing with religious lyrics (as with any other lyrics), if it sounds bad to you, if it makes you cringe, there's not much you can do about it.
So true,
I love Skin's voice, but I cannot stand the overly thick political tone in her lyrics, not that there is anything wrong with being political but I'm usually going to music for the sake of escaping that kinda stuff. And hers are just so much so, I can't listen. Makes me cringe.
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Still, it would be quite hard to completely separate the music from the musician. Taking it to the extreme, could you thoroughly enjoy a neo-Nazi punk band, just because they have some cool guitar playing going on?
If the music is good, I could enjoy it. I don't have to agree with the band's ideologies and attitudes. I can find it completely disgusting, unacceptable. But it wouldn't affect on how I rate the music.
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The religious lyrics/Neal Morse thing is a terrible comparison and we could be here all day and week and month talking about why. Religious lyrics ain't my bag, therefore it's a massive turnoff whenever I try to listen to him, because that's all he fucking sings about. Okay, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but seriously, I hate religious lyrics, even if the music rules I don't want to hear the Jesus talk.
I don't think it is a terrible comparison. Some people don't listen to the SoA record because of what MP and DS say on social media. Some people don't listen to Roger Waters because of the political content. Some people don't listen to Neal Morse because of the religious lyrics.
In my view, although slightly different, I think all those above fit the same pattern. In the case of SoA, the music they wrote has absolutely nothing to do with how they act on social media. The music is neutral. It is a collection of organized sounds. You don't have to love the guys who wrote it or agree with them, but you can enjoy the music.
And it is always up to you to feel personally offended/attacked when someone talks shit about your favorite band.
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HK is mostly guitar work, so it would seem that JP was primarily responsible for that.
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HK is mostly guitar work, so it would seem that JP was primarily responsible for that.
Supposedly, Derek came up with the intro (those soft keyboard chords) and it developed from that, but that's definitely not the entire track.
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I do love those opening keys, though. Mmmm.
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Then Jordan Rudess made it more better by adding Tubular Bells to the end on Instrumedley. Too bad he doesn't do them now on the tour.
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HK is mostly guitar work, so it would seem that JP was primarily responsible for that.
Supposedly, Derek came up with the intro (those soft keyboard chords) and it developed from that, but that's definitely not the entire track.
Yes, that was about it (judging by this video that Derek himself made a while back: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zxIa1ckYqEI). He came up with a few key bits in both songs but I wouldn't say he was primarily responsible for those songs. On top of that, JP's achingly beatiful and lyrical solo is what makes "Lines In The Sand" and we all know Derek had nothing to do with it.
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Then Jordan Rudess made it more better by adding Tubular Bells to the end on Instrumedley. Too bad he doesn't do them now on the tour.
I really really loved that ending. The Instrumedley was, along with Endless Sacrifice, the first songs I heard and liked from DT. So the first time I heard HK, I was kind of dissapointed that the ending didn't have the tubular bells.
I also would like to hear that way now that DT is playing HK.
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Then Jordan Rudess made it more better by adding Tubular Bells to the end on Instrumedley. Too bad he doesn't do them now on the tour.
I really really loved that ending. The Instrumedley was, along with Endless Sacrifice, the first songs I heard and liked from DT. So the first time I heard HK, I was kind of dissapointed that the ending didn't have the tubular bells.
I also would like to hear that way now that DT is playing HK.
Same here. Thats how I got into DT was through Budakon and with those same exact songs too.
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Still, it would be quite hard to completely separate the music from the musician. Taking it to the extreme, could you thoroughly enjoy a neo-Nazi punk band, just because they have some cool guitar playing going on?
If the music is good, I could enjoy it. I don't have to agree with the band's ideologies and attitudes. I can find it completely disgusting, unacceptable. But it wouldn't affect on how I rate the music.
That is...interesting. I wouldn't want to listen to "completely disgusting unacceptable" lyrics.
The religious lyrics/Neal Morse thing is a terrible comparison and we could be here all day and week and month talking about why. Religious lyrics ain't my bag, therefore it's a massive turnoff whenever I try to listen to him, because that's all he fucking sings about. Okay, that's a bit of an exaggeration, but seriously, I hate religious lyrics, even if the music rules I don't want to hear the Jesus talk.
I don't think it is a terrible comparison. Some people don't listen to the SoA record because of what MP and DS say on social media. Some people don't listen to Roger Waters because of the political content. Some people don't listen to Neal Morse because of the religious lyrics.
In my view, although slightly different, I think all those above fit the same pattern. In the case of SoA, the music they wrote has absolutely nothing to do with how they act on social media. The music is neutral. It is a collection of organized sounds. You don't have to love the guys who wrote it or agree with them, but you can enjoy the music.
And it is always up to you to feel personally offended/attacked when someone talks shit about your favorite band.
I think there's a big difference between Neal Morse lyrics and Sherinian making fun of Dream Theater. I can ignore the latter because that attitude isn't present in the SoA lyrics as far as I can tell. Someone who really doesn't want to hear about religion or politics will have a difficult time ignoring Neal Morse lyrics or Roger Waters' political rants during live shows.
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He's also primarily responsible for turning me off to Sons Of Apollo.
Lol, I thought the same thing. A pity you can't separate the music from the musicians. This is like the people who can't enjoy Neal Morse simply because he's Christian and writes religious lyrics sometimes. You don't have to like the person to enjoy the music. I don't like Steven Wilson, but I enjoy his music.
But well.. your loss.
I don't see this is as my loss. I listened to the first two tracks and they did nothing for me. As a long time fan of MP I planned on purchasing this to support him. After the shit throwing at DT by him and DS I decided to not buy it. So if anything it's a monetary loss for the band.
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I doubt it's much of a monetary loss at all to them. They already had a limited market and a good sized chunk of it was going to hate them anyway. A slight loss in their sales won't matter much. In the meantime they'll tour and it'll be successful. I haven't even heard the album but if they come to Dallas it'll be a ticket sale and probably a shirt from me. Hell, if their setlist consisted of nothing but Mariah Carrey covers they're still far too talented to not make it entertaining AF.
In any case, despite all of the wonderful stuff going on in LitS, and there's a ton of it, it all began with the mood DS set. Seems to me that he threw a pass which everybody ran with. Without him we don't get anything close to the same song. I'd give him a great deal of credit for ACoS, as well. We've all heard the prototype version, and his contribution is a huge part the difference between a neat song for the novelty and a genuine masterpiece.
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According to Rena Petrucci, JP wrote every song except New Millenium, so there's that. Of course she might have some bias.
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According to Rena Petrucci, JP wrote every song except New Millenium, so there's that. Of course she might have some bias.
Petrucci obviously didn’t write Anna Lee. Can’t say much for the rest.
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I always thought Anna Lee was a beautifully written song. After learning what it was about, it put out a darker vibe of reality to it. A sympathetic song from the writers standpoint.
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According to Rena Petrucci, JP wrote every song except New Millenium, so there's that. Of course she might have some bias.
Petrucci obviously didn’t write Anna Lee. Can’t say much for the rest.
In the commentary for 5YIAL Mike said that the song was just Derek and James and Petrucci chimed in and said he also had a heavy hand in it.
BTW, where did Rena say this?
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He's also primarily responsible for turning me off to Sons Of Apollo.
Preach.
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A pity you can't separate the music from the musicians. This is like the people who can't enjoy Neal Morse simply because he's Christian and writes religious lyrics sometimes. You don't have to like the person to enjoy the music. I don't like Steven Wilson, but I enjoy his music.
But well.. your loss.
The Cosby Show was amazingly well-written and superbly acted and had a lot of great lessons about family life and growing up along with lots of literary, political, and music history interspersed throughout so we should just forget about Bill Cosby's personal problems and still watch and support the show in syndication, right?
Personally, I'm pissed off that I can't show my daughter this show the way things are right now but that's the way it is.
Why would I support *any* artist whom I find to be a moral douche suit? Why would I give them money to continue to be a moral douche suit? I *did* support MP by buying his drum DVDs even though I'm not a drummer, so there you go, paying him even though I don't know what I'm doing with the actual product other than supporting him, so what do you say about that?
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Did you forgive Kramer?
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Hey I still love Fat Albert and the gang. If the allegations against Bill Cosby are true, Fat Albert would be most disappointed.
He would say: "HEY, HEY HEY that's not ok"..
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Did you forgive Kramer?
If you're talking to me, then yes, of course I can forgive people for an occasional mistake or slip-up, nobody's perfect, and don't be like "oh, then you must also forgive murderers and rapists" cuz that's not even close to the same thing.
What I can't condone is constant douchery, or a history of douchery, especially when said douchery is attempted to be discussed rationally with the person acting that way and rather than trying to understand they double-down on the douchery.
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Guys may I ask for your opinion about what is the message of lines in the sand?
Is it about being like Jesus? Or the message is about living a good life.
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Guys may I ask for your opinion about what is the message of lines in the sand?
Is it about being like Jesus? Or the message is about living a good life.
No, I think it's more generally about struggling with coming to terms with one's own faith, whatever that may be, in the face of religious institutions that may have customs/practices that one disagrees with.
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I thought it was about dining with illegal immigrants.
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Why would I support *any* artist whom I find to be a moral douche suit? Why would I give them money to continue to be a moral douche suit? I *did* support MP by buying his drum DVDs even though I'm not a drummer, so there you go, paying him even though I don't know what I'm doing with the actual product other than supporting him, so what do you say about that?
You are in no way obligated to support the artists you like or not. You can listen to their music with streaming devices, youtube or illegal download. There are lots of people who can't afford to buy cds/dvds/vinyls and they listen to it that way. Most of the money goes to the record companies anyway. If you wanna support the artist, go to his concert.
And again: when I see Mike playing live or when I listen to a band he's involved in, I couldn't care less what he said about DT or how he behaves on social media. I enjoy the music and I have a good time. I am not saying I agree with how he acts. I don't have to agree. But I can enjoy the music without letting that interfere.
On topic: Hell's Kitchen and Lines In The Sand are two of my favorite tracks from FII.