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General => Political and Religious Forum (aka the echo chamber) => Topic started by: jammindude on August 13, 2017, 07:08:20 PM

Title: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: jammindude on August 13, 2017, 07:08:20 PM
Well.   Here it is.   The thread for discussing what happened in Charlottesville, and any other city that may have responded. 

As I type, there is more violence in downtown Seattle tonight as the two sides square off against each other.   

I can't say I'm really surprised, but it is incredibly sad.   I will quote the Terminator, "It's in your nature to destroy yourselves"....   

This is one of the primary reasons I disagree with any and all arguments that the world is a better place today than it ever has been.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: eric42434224 on August 13, 2017, 07:30:17 PM
Well.   Here it is.   The thread for discussing what happened in Charlottesville, and any other city that may have responded. 

As I type, there is more violence in downtown Seattle tonight as the two sides square off against each other.   

I can't say I'm really surprised, but it is incredibly sad.   I will quote the Terminator, "It's in your nature to destroy yourselves"....   

This is one of the primary reasons I disagree with any and all arguments that the world is a better place today than it ever has been.

Right.......The world was clearly better when the racial tensions were about Slaves wanting freedom.  Now we have BLM.

Now we have to deal with Neo-Nazis protesting, and some idiot guy runs over and kills a protester.  Back in the good old days we only had actual nazis exterminating millions of Jews.

Now we deal with political parties dividing America, and see brothers insulting brothers on facebook.  Back in the day, we had the civil war with brother actually killing brother.

Cmon man.

Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: pogoowner on August 13, 2017, 07:52:41 PM
What went on in Charlottesville this weekend was abominable. To see white nationalists, nazis, etc. taking to the streets so openly is very unsettling (there were some spotted there from my own community as well), and then to see an innocent woman killed, and I think 19 others injured, in a terrorist attack by one of them is deeply saddening. There was also a young black man who sustained severe injuries after being surrounded and beaten with poles. It's all pretty tough to swallow.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cable on August 13, 2017, 08:05:04 PM
Well.   Here it is.   The thread for discussing what happened in Charlottesville, and any other city that may have responded. 

As I type, there is more violence in downtown Seattle tonight as the two sides square off against each other.   

I can't say I'm really surprised, but it is incredibly sad.   I will quote the Terminator, "It's in your nature to destroy yourselves"....   

This is one of the primary reasons I disagree with any and all arguments that the world is a better place today than it ever has been.

Right.......The world was clearly better when the racial tensions were about Slaves wanting freedom.  Now we have BLM.

Now we have to deal with Neo-Nazis protesting, and some idiot guy runs over and kills a protester.  Back in the good old days we only had actual nazis exterminating millions of Jews.

Now we deal with political parties dividing America, and see brothers insulting brothers on facebook.  Back in the day, we had the civil war with brother actually killing brother.

Cmon man.


But being indifferent, or washing it off as *been going on since the start of time* is a better idea? Let's say my brother was the person who was killed, and was there primarily with their friends to just support them (easier to do something hard with friends boosting you). ~But hey, the KKK has been around since the Civil War, and back then they were stoning to death seven *lepers* a weekend. Therefore, just one person dying isn't a big deal then!~

It's one thing to say this has been publicized a heck of a lot more than other atrocities: that is a debatable point. And sure, people have it better today than ever.

Doesn't mean work is done, and/or things cannot be refined more. Minimizing one death, who this person was important to lots people, is harsh. And would piss off many people in their circle. If I said to a patient ~oh, your dog was eaten. Dogs have been dying for meals forever though, shoot, they used to eat dogs instead of cows in this country! So nothing new, get over it- it's just one dog.~  That is effective?

Or let's take it here; I had no one I know involved with 9/11/2001 at the time. As a result, it didn't have an emotional impact on me, until about a year ago when I found something out. So if I would have said after 9/11 something like ~Lots of corpses, but the holocaust killed so many more people. Armenian genocide too. Wars have wiped out so many more civilians than this. Heck, even some cruise ship disasters wiped out more people. Nothing new here!~ I could have been attacked by someone if I said that after.

Extreme analogies, but dismissively waving off small events won't help anything or anyone. Criticizing the media's coverage, and the focus on what President Drumpf said afterward is legit. But minimizing it is not cool considering this person got blitzed by an inmpuslve kid, most likely in daddy's car.


What went on in Charlottesville this weekend was abominable. To see white nationalists, nazis, etc. taking to the streets so openly is very unsettling (there were some spotted there from my own community as well), and then to see an innocent woman killed, and I think 19 others injured, in a terrorist attack by one of them is deeply saddening. There was also a young black man who sustained severe injuries after being surrounded and beaten with poles. It's all pretty tough to swallow.

 :tup And this is the way to say it.  :)
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: eric42434224 on August 13, 2017, 08:50:15 PM
I clearly did not brush anything off, or act indifferent, saying it has been happening forever.  Clearly there are very serious issues happening in the world today.  But to say that things are no better than in the past is being willfully ignorant at best.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cool Chris on August 13, 2017, 09:04:17 PM
I generally have no problem with any group that wants to assemble, protest, convene, or do whatever they choose,  provided their intentions or actions do not result in destruction, violation of public rights-of-way, or any other direct or indirect impediments of anyone not involved.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: jammindude on August 13, 2017, 09:16:53 PM
 That is a good point that I should clarify on my end.  Clarify on my end.

 I understand that atrocities have been going on with humans since the beginning of time. But for all that time, humans have been promising a better future. I don't believe that better future is here. I think that we have simply made the problems more widespread because there are more people.   The problems keep repeating and spreading.   We might have a few more creature comfort's, but the things that make us happy are no closer to us now than they ever have been in human history.

 Even people who supposedly has everything that would make most people happy is miserable.

 And it's because humankind is never going to be able to solve the root issues.  They are just going to keep spreading out the more people we get.

EDIT -  typos are due to my stupid talk to text. And I don't feel like going back to fix them right now. But I'm sure you guys can figure it out. LOL
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: lonestar on August 13, 2017, 09:32:40 PM
Very depressed and disturbed by yesterday's events, and the ensuing shitstorm that will ensue. I would like to think that the death of that girl would instigate a change for the better, but I feel that it will be a trigger for darker days to come, especially since 45 will never stoop to denounce his base supporters.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: KevShmev on August 13, 2017, 09:54:09 PM
Yesterday was a travesty, and I fear it is only going to get worse.  When you consider how many protests the radical left has had the last few years, it was only a matter of time before the radical right (or in this case, the REALLY radical right) decided to do the same...and here we are.  It's just ugliness through and through. 

While the reaction has been strong, I think some need to be careful to not cast over a net over entire groups of people based on the actions of a few.  For example, all we have heard for years from liberals is, "Don't castigate all muslims because of the radical ones who are terrorists," yet I am seeing liberals all over the place in the last two days saying that Charlottesville proves that all Republicans are racist, as if anyone who votes for the GOP is a neo-nazi who secretly wants to smash all black and brown people.  It's maddening, and hypocritical.

That said, Trump's reaction to it was the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen out of an American president.  He truly is an abomination.



Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cool Chris on August 13, 2017, 10:15:53 PM
I am seeing liberals all over the place in the last two days saying that Charlottesville proves that all Republicans are racist, as if anyone who votes for the GOP is a neo-nazi who secretly wants to smash all black and brown people.

They've been saying that about Republicans for the past 6 months. If not longer.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cable on August 13, 2017, 10:17:32 PM
I clearly did not brush anything off, or act indifferent, saying it has been happening forever.  Clearly there are very serious issues happening in the world today. 


The tone I received from your post was somewhat sarcastic Eric, and concluded with "cmon man." So I'm not sure that can be taken as acceptaing of what Jammin said?


I am seeing liberals all over the place in the last two days saying that Charlottesville proves that all Republicans are racist, as if anyone who votes for the GOP is a neo-nazi who secretly wants to smash all black and brown people.

They've been saying that about Republicans for the past 6 months. If not longer.


I agree with this fully. And goes back to the closed conversations, what Google guy was hoping to rally against.

Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: eric42434224 on August 14, 2017, 05:02:17 AM
I clearly did not brush anything off, or act indifferent, saying it has been happening forever.  Clearly there are very serious issues happening in the world today. 


The tone I received from your post was somewhat sarcastic Eric, and concluded with "cmon man." So I'm not sure that can be taken as acceptaing of what Jammin said?

I was being sarcastic.  I did not agree with what Jammin said.  The world is not perfect, and it has many problems...but to say it is no better than it ever has been????....especially in respects to the thread topic (Racism, Nazism, etc)
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Chino on August 14, 2017, 06:29:29 AM
I am seeing liberals all over the place in the last two days saying that Charlottesville proves that all Republicans are racist, as if anyone who votes for the GOP is a neo-nazi who secretly wants to smash all black and brown people.

They've been saying that about Republicans for the past 6 months. If not longer.

And I've seen plenty of youtube comments wishing the guy ran over more people, and one piece of shit even started a go fund me page to repair the damages to his car for him. But I know better than to apply that to everyone.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Chino on August 14, 2017, 06:44:53 AM
This whole event really disturbed me, and I hate to circle it back to Trump, but why the hell couldn't he call out the group for what it is? A nazi on US soil killed an American, and the best he can say is "there was hate from many sides. Many sides"? If there was an ISIS march, and and ISIS supporter ran over someone protesting ISIS, he would've been on Twitter within seconds screaming "RADICAL ISLAMIC TERROR".

I mean, at what point does it become clear that he's going out of his way to pander to this group of people? He's screaming for a border wall, immigration bans, information from sanctuary cities, etc, all in the name of preventing this sort of thing, and this is done by the hands of a home grown "patriot".

(https://i.redditmedia.com/RMVXyW61cvPRGVKULaFUvDNlXx7TDcVIxdn9zNXIFC0.jpg?w=1024&s=3f188591421c87a29e933e908ad64611)

The epitome of irony, a Charlottesville protester doing the nazi salute while wearing a cap brandishing the 82nd airborne units patch. The same unit that dropped into Normandy to help with the invasion and to end Nazi rule in Europe.
(https://i.redditmedia.com/xSP-OVtLQ7bOqyxwX8jZ4DIu4hLd8x3T4F5s4rZlS5s.jpg?w=526&s=12f410ffb76d9ffb23d6d30f6e61a775)

(https://i.redditmedia.com/df7-llOk5nyOKYb4MBzyt5u6qenWCxbrJey1OYJmU7c.jpg?w=469&s=268285748951c5fda31f9496ce7b9793)

(https://i.redditmedia.com/ZwOFHFg9Lom8b9J6hc4N6LVIx17iTdXKAHafD_jw8nM.jpg?w=970&s=e81e5fe6402d8814d8ae9e5d4adf340e)

(https://i.redditmedia.com/W2LLxEcU2B10v8kLMtvaGOw3NXz1jNNwc-SVkLhpb-k.jpg?w=583&s=8f4a4331e6eb1123ecdbc1466521d396)

(https://i.redditmedia.com/UwW930LuIfZtCNc-GzxKMKLVvAJzrlkz8bBV0P6zKRs.jpg?w=1024&s=4b244b80b01bc2329a9115f109320c5b)

(https://i.redditmedia.com/rfViT4dcWqlgpj3jXXs2rjl2wQVeFiHe_KfXo9_S6vE.jpg?w=576&s=21d76ba942bbbe8aca33900768419aa7)

C'mon. What's it going to take for this guy to grow some balls. He can't even call the people waving swastika flags "nazis". What the fuck is wrong with him?
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: kaos2900 on August 14, 2017, 07:45:25 AM
One of the interesting sides of this which gaining some attention today was the how the police chose to handle this. My understanding is that they essentially were acting like referees and only intervened as needed, otherwise they pretty much just let the whole thing act out. I have no problem with this approach.

And to think this was all about a stupid statue.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Chino on August 14, 2017, 07:58:03 AM
One of the interesting sides of this which gaining some attention today was the how the police chose to handle this. My understanding is that they essentially were acting like referees and only intervened as needed, otherwise they pretty much just let the whole thing act out. I have no problem with this approach.

And to think this was all about a stupid statue.

I don't know how much more they could have done to be honest. I wouldn't expect this guy to try to go in and preemptively shut these people down.
(https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/598f8b9b140000381aed0668.jpg?ops=crop_0_123_749_601,scalefit_820_noupscale)
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Implode on August 14, 2017, 08:27:33 AM
One thing that came to mind is the IL Nazi scene from Blues Brothers, and I don't mean that in a humorous way. Almost 40 years ago, Nazi rallies were almost to the point of a joke in the public eye. Heroes of media hated Nazis, and they had no problem driving a car through a crowd of them for a gag. Now I'm not advocating violence or anything, but just thinking about how it was depicted then compared to now, is it more acceptable to be a Nazi now? What the hell happened?
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: bosk1 on August 14, 2017, 08:43:05 AM
This is one of the primary reasons I disagree with any and all arguments that the world is a better place today than it ever has been.
Well, yeah.  But what is confusing to me is that you seem to be surprised/disappointed by that fact.  Perhaps I am assuming to much, but I would assume that your religious views would inform you to expect that that is the case and will always be the case.  (and I'm not criticizing, in case it was taken that way)  So I am confused that you are confused.

...is it more acceptable to be a Nazi now? What the hell happened?

I don't know that anything "happened."  There will always be hate.  There will always be stupidity.  And no matter how "intolerant" society as a whole becomes toward hate and stupidity, there will still always be groups that bristle against that and rise up to promote their agenda.  Always.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 14, 2017, 08:53:01 AM
So, nobody likes neo-nazis. They've got very little support amongst the general population which mostly sees them as a joke. So why provide them more attention than they deserve? Seems to me that the counter-protest was counter-productive. It turned the whole thing into the spectacle they needed. Had everybody just ignored those knuckleheads nothing would have come of this. I defend both sides' right to march, protest, whatever. At the same time because you can do something doesn't mean that you should, and those asshat Nazis should have been the only people in town that day.

Honestly, what did the counter-protesters hope to achieve? Bigger numbers? Let people know they disapprove of something damn near everybody else already does? Any escalation they provide to the Nazis only furthers their cause by giving them a bigger microphone. Next time they decide to rally at a park somewhere, the counter-protest should take place 10 miles away. The organization should be to make sure that everybody avoids the area, so the only people who see them are a bunch of board cops.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: gmillerdrake on August 14, 2017, 09:07:21 AM
So, nobody likes neo-nazis. They've got very little support amongst the general population which mostly sees them as a joke. So why provide them more attention than they deserve? Seems to me that the counter-protest was counter-productive. It turned the whole thing into the spectacle they needed. Had everybody just ignored those knuckleheads nothing would have come of this. I defend both sides' right to march, protest, whatever. At the same time because you can do something doesn't mean that you should, and those asshat Nazis should have been the only people in town that day.

Honestly, what did the counter-protesters hope to achieve? Bigger numbers? Let people know they disapprove of something damn near everybody else already does? Any escalation they provide to the Nazis only furthers their cause by giving them a bigger microphone. Next time they decide to rally at a park somewhere, the counter-protest should take place 10 miles away. The organization should be to make sure that everybody avoids the area, so the only people who see them are a bunch of board cops.

Spot. On.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: DragonAttack on August 14, 2017, 09:28:50 AM
A way to counter protest is to turn their backs on the idiots, with no yelling or shouting towards them.  That has worked.

btw...so glad that I lost two uncles in WWII fighting for their 'right' to thumb their noses at what they fought against with their antics.

The problem is when the 'anarchists' come in as to the violence.  Baltimore to Ferguson to Baton Rouge, etc has had to deal with it.

A peaceful solution is to put up something commemorating Grant / Sherman / Lincoln et al next to the Confederate statues.  Call it a 'history' lesson area.  We haven't wiped away all the reminders of the British 'occupancy', otherwise there would be a ton of name changing to do.

My stepdaughter worked in Charlottesville for three years as she earned her first Master's degree.  We visited the city many times, including last year for a Central Michigan / Virginia football game.  This 'display' disgustingly hit home in.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Chino on August 14, 2017, 10:45:41 AM
So, nobody likes neo-nazis. They've got very little support amongst the general population which mostly sees them as a joke. So why provide them more attention than they deserve? Seems to me that the counter-protest was counter-productive. It turned the whole thing into the spectacle they needed. Had everybody just ignored those knuckleheads nothing would have come of this. I defend both sides' right to march, protest, whatever. At the same time because you can do something doesn't mean that you should, and those asshat Nazis should have been the only people in town that day.

Honestly, what did the counter-protesters hope to achieve? Bigger numbers? Let people know they disapprove of something damn near everybody else already does? Any escalation they provide to the Nazis only furthers their cause by giving them a bigger microphone. Next time they decide to rally at a park somewhere, the counter-protest should take place 10 miles away. The organization should be to make sure that everybody avoids the area, so the only people who see them are a bunch of board cops.

Spot. On.

I hear what you guys are saying, and all of me basically agrees. However, part of me is glad that people do this. I think it's important for the rest of the world, especially in today's political environment, to know that these people don't speak for this country, and there are many people in the US that seriously frown upon this behavior. If our own president won't denounce these groups, I'm glad someone else is.

I don't want other countries thinking that the majority of Americans are cool with this
(https://i.redditmedia.com/Pfbn57G_Vg-Dg6aVvE5iI4m-MVg1D5q8WtD7BjTi0gA.png?w=672&s=7038d0e345cdd4753cffd8333ac7b970)
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: bosk1 on August 14, 2017, 10:59:53 AM
If our own president won't denounce these groups, I'm glad someone else is.

And that's one of the reasons it is such an important freedom.  But as far as the president, I respectfully disagree with your position on what he "should" do.  I don't think this or any other president is obligated to affirmatively denounce any specific group.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Chino on August 14, 2017, 11:04:26 AM
If our own president won't denounce these groups, I'm glad someone else is.

And that's one of the reasons it is such an important freedom.  But as far as the president, I respectfully disagree with your position on what he "should" do.  I don't think this or any other president is obligated to affirmatively denounce any specific group.

I wouldn't say he's obligated as there are tons of hate groups out there, but when man arrested for murder charges is seen on camera with literal nazis and then drives his car into a crowd of those who oppose him, I think it's time for the president to call a spade a spade. Like I said, if this was a muslim guy in support of ISIS, he would have wasted no time tweeting something about radical islamic terror, not there was hate "from many sides". I guess that's the issue I have with it. He can't risk upsetting his base.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: mikeyd23 on August 14, 2017, 11:07:50 AM
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/14/us/politics/trump-charlottesville-protest.html
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 14, 2017, 11:46:00 AM
So, nobody likes neo-nazis. They've got very little support amongst the general population which mostly sees them as a joke. So why provide them more attention than they deserve? Seems to me that the counter-protest was counter-productive. It turned the whole thing into the spectacle they needed. Had everybody just ignored those knuckleheads nothing would have come of this. I defend both sides' right to march, protest, whatever. At the same time because you can do something doesn't mean that you should, and those asshat Nazis should have been the only people in town that day.

Honestly, what did the counter-protesters hope to achieve? Bigger numbers? Let people know they disapprove of something damn near everybody else already does? Any escalation they provide to the Nazis only furthers their cause by giving them a bigger microphone. Next time they decide to rally at a park somewhere, the counter-protest should take place 10 miles away. The organization should be to make sure that everybody avoids the area, so the only people who see them are a bunch of board cops.

Spot. On.

I hear what you guys are saying, and all of me basically agrees. However, part of me is glad that people do this. I think it's important for the rest of the world, especially in today's political environment, to know that these people don't speak for this country, and there are many people in the US that seriously frown upon this behavior. If our own president won't denounce these groups, I'm glad someone else is.

I don't want other countries thinking that the majority of Americans are cool with this
(https://i.redditmedia.com/Pfbn57G_Vg-Dg6aVvE5iI4m-MVg1D5q8WtD7BjTi0gA.png?w=672&s=7038d0e345cdd4753cffd8333ac7b970)
Seems to me that if people had just ignored them altogether the rest of the world probably wouldn't have noticed their existence to begin with. Sadly, the knuckleheads are the real winners here. As for the image it sends, I'd just as soon people see a picture of those asshats protesting among themselves. Recognition that we allow assholes the right to assemble, and that none of the rest of us care to be amongst them.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: TAC on August 14, 2017, 04:14:29 PM
Can I ask a dumb question?

When did a statue of a Confederate General become an issue for black people? I mean, there were slaves in the North, right? I wasn't aware that the Civil War was over slavery. That is until Lincoln scared off the South's foreign aid with the EP.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cable on August 14, 2017, 04:50:50 PM
Can I ask a dumb question?

When did a statue of a Confederate General become an issue for black people? I mean, there were slaves in the North, right? I wasn't aware that the Civil War was over slavery. That is until Lincoln scared off the South's foreign aid with the EP.


I thought slavery was the primary reason, or at least the first thing mentioned.


Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cable on August 14, 2017, 04:52:46 PM
https://youtu.be/0RHBiRnWwRs?t=11m40s

DeFranco does more popular media type stories, but I thought he does a good job here covering it all in a digestible manner. Also wanted to share, because for what it's worth, he is self-admitely Libertarian.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: axeman90210 on August 14, 2017, 07:29:59 PM
Can I ask a dumb question?

When did a statue of a Confederate General become an issue for black people? I mean, there were slaves in the North, right? I wasn't aware that the Civil War was over slavery. That is until Lincoln scared off the South's foreign aid with the EP.

Several of the southern states are fairly explicit in their articles of secession that the preservation of slavery is one of their main motivations. Even the idea of states' rights was in terms of those states being able to preserve slavery. So yeah, I totally get why black people wouldn't like monuments to men who literally went to war to keep them in chains. I don't think it's something that just became distasteful to black people recently, I think it's only recently that they've gotten enough momentum to get anything done about it. State governments shouldn't have any part in flying confederate flags or having monuments to the confederacy.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: kingshmegland on August 14, 2017, 07:38:33 PM
Dead on Bill.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: PowerSlave on August 14, 2017, 07:55:51 PM
Can I ask a dumb question?

When did a statue of a Confederate General become an issue for black people? I mean, there were slaves in the North, right? I wasn't aware that the Civil War was over slavery. That is until Lincoln scared off the South's foreign aid with the EP.

I don't believe that slavery was something that happened in the north. At least, I've never heard mention of it if it did. And as has already been mentioned, the preservation of slavery was a great motivating factor in the southern states leaving the union.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederate_States_of_America#Causes_of_secession

Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: KevShmev on August 14, 2017, 08:02:50 PM
I don't believe that slavery was something that happened in the north. At least, I've never heard mention of it if it did. 

Did you skip history class in school? ;)
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: PowerSlave on August 14, 2017, 08:11:14 PM
I don't believe that slavery was something that happened in the north. At least, I've never heard mention of it if it did. 

Did you skip history class in school? ;)

I admit that I very well could be missing/forgetting something that's obvious/common knowledge.

I do remember reading that it was legal for slave catchers from the south to cross borders into northern states to retrieve runaway slaves, but I don't remember seeing anything saying that it was legal in the north. Also, I think of the 3/5 compromise in the constitution as being a benefit to the south etc. etc...
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 14, 2017, 08:16:50 PM
Well, most of the northern states had abolished slavery by the early 1800's.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: KevShmev on August 14, 2017, 08:19:01 PM
Correct, but slavery was very prominent in the north in the early stages of this country post-1776.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 14, 2017, 08:23:05 PM
Correct, but slavery was very prominent in the north in the early stages of this country post-1776.

Totes my goats.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: PowerSlave on August 14, 2017, 08:31:30 PM
I started poking around online and found this article.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/slavery/experience/freedom/history.html

Hats off to Kev. I always love reading about history, and this definitely brought something to light that, I'm going to assume, most people have wrong (myself included).
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: KevShmev on August 14, 2017, 08:48:23 PM
Correct, but slavery was very prominent in the north in the early stages of this country post-1776.

Totes my goats.

 :tup :tup

I started poking around online and found this article.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/slavery/experience/freedom/history.html

Hats off to Kev. I always love reading about history, and this definitely brought something to light that, I'm going to assume, most people have wrong (myself included).

I think some (not you) have deluded themselves into thinking "the north is and was always so enlightened, while the south is filled with nothing but backwards, racist hicks."
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: portnoy311 on August 14, 2017, 09:13:53 PM
The other thing to remember is that the Confederate States of America was literally at war with the United States for 100% of its existence. The country was who the US fought in the bloodiest war in our history. Another reason honoring that history might be dubious.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: axeman90210 on August 14, 2017, 09:29:33 PM
My own thoughts on the ugliness from this weekend:

- I hope we can all at least agree that the ideology of the KKK/neo-nazis/white nationalists is absolutely reprehensible.

- I'm not going to pretend that every bout of violence was instigated by the right wing protesters, and those on the left who showed up and initiated violent conflict harmed rather than helped.

- That said, I didn't see anything that quite compared to that photo of a group of white supremacists beating a black man with pipes, let alone the vehicular manslaughter.

- I don't agree that all that we should just let them have their demonstration in peace. The Nazi party didn't spring up in Germany fully formed and with concentration camps ready to go. Years before they came to power they were holding demonstrations and rallies, and I'm sure there were plenty of Germans who thought they'd never move past the fringe. I don't mean to come off as hysterical, and I'm not saying we're getting ready to elect the second coming of Hitler to the White House, but if they're going to have public demonstrations I'm damn glad to see Americans showing up in greater numbers to reinforce that their beliefs are vile and antithetical to the character of our nation.

- I view Trump's "many sides" statement and inability to call out the white supremacists/alt-right specifically as a failure of leadership and a reinforcement of what many on the left said about him in the run up to the election as far as him and race relations. Any time a Muslim commits an attack abroad it triggers a tweetstorm about ISIS and radical Islamic terrorists. Here we have what Jeff Sessions called an act of domestic terrorism perpetuated by a white nationalist and the best he could do was talk about violence on many sides. David Duke (who Trump already had a hard time disavowing once) and others involved in the demonstrations talked about how they were trying to fulfill Donald Trump's vision, so clearly they take inspiration from his policies and his rhetoric. Given that, yeah, I think he needed to call them out. He needed to do it on Saturday though, not today.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: portnoy311 on August 14, 2017, 10:20:12 PM
He just retweeted someone asking why the media doesn't cover violence in Chicago instead. Unreal.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cool Chris on August 14, 2017, 11:46:29 PM
While a decent question to ask, obviously not the time to bring it up.

Meanwhile, speaking of statues...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/08/14/protesters-in-north-carolina-topple-confederate-statue-following-charlottesville-violence/?utm_term=.44f27d48f70e#comments
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 15, 2017, 06:39:30 AM
My understanding is that a lot those confederate monuments or statues were put up like 50 or 60 years AFTER the civil war, by people who would have been much too young or not even born to fight in it and with the specific purpose of intimidating the black population of the Jim Crow south.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: TAC on August 15, 2017, 06:55:28 AM
My understanding is that a lot those confederate monuments or statues were put up like 50 or 60 years AFTER the civil war, by people who would have been much too young or not even born to fight in it and with the specific purpose of intimidating the black population of the Jim Crow south.

Huh. Really?
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: axeman90210 on August 15, 2017, 07:25:31 AM
My understanding is that a lot those confederate monuments or statues were put up like 50 or 60 years AFTER the civil war, by people who would have been much too young or not even born to fight in it and with the specific purpose of intimidating the black population of the Jim Crow south.

Huh. Really?

https://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/whoseheritage-timeline150_years_of_iconography.jpg
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: antigoon on August 15, 2017, 07:42:53 AM
 In a way.........................................these monuments are the ultimate participation trophies.  :eek
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 15, 2017, 08:36:29 AM
I think some (not you) have deluded themselves into thinking "the north is and was always so enlightened, while the south is filled with nothing but backwards, racist hicks."
I wouldn't put it quite so starkly, but from what I've seen people up North almost always see the civil war as 100% about slavery and reminders of it nothing but monuments from soar losers. Down here things seem to be a bit more nuanced. While there are certainly some racist assholes who celebrate Lee for the wrong reasons, they're the exception.

From my perspective, before he was turned into a political football, Lee was a complicated fellow. He was certainly a slave owner, but he didn't seem to share Lincoln's animosity towards the negro and his opinions on slavery as an institution were complex. Sadly, complexity and nuance are becoming as antiquated and obsolete as statues of the confederacy when it comes to discussions about race. There's simply no room for it in an increasingly dumbed down, binary discussion.

As for myself, I'm not in any position to judge Lee's attitude towards the races, but he certainly seemed to be on better footing than the so-called union heroes of the civil war. As far as I'm concerned his record before and after the war leave room for a bit of statuary regardless of assumptions about his attitudes on race. Before the war he was commandant of the US Military Academy at West Point. He served well for the Army in numerous battles. He turned Washington and Lee into a very successful university and something of a model to go forward. These sorts of things mean more to me than the simple bleating of "but, but, but, slavery!", stated without any reasonable context or rationale.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 15, 2017, 10:04:20 AM
I generally have no problem with any group that wants to assemble, protest, convene, or do whatever they choose,  provided their intentions or actions do not result in destruction, violation of public rights-of-way, or any other direct or indirect impediments of anyone not involved.

So what if I peaceably, and within my rights, stage a demonstration where I proclaim the white race to be the one true race and all others are inferior and only fit to wash my shoes.   BUT the counter-demonstrators come and THAT gets violent, either amongst themselves or with my group?   

Look, we get to have contrary opinions.   I don't at all support the Nazi ideology (some of this isn't specifically "Nazi-ism", but I guess it gets the right hackles raised, so it's not going away anytime soon) but I do support someone's right to have that ideology.   The onus is on me, not to kill them, not to suppress them, not to deny them their rights, but to come up with cogent, reasonable, factually correct arguments why the Nazi ideology is narrow-minded, self-limiting, and not in keeping with science as we know it.   this notion that one side is "right" and one side is "wrong", is, to me, the absolute wrong way of going about this.   
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 15, 2017, 10:07:43 AM
One of the interesting sides of this which gaining some attention today was the how the police chose to handle this. My understanding is that they essentially were acting like referees and only intervened as needed, otherwise they pretty much just let the whole thing act out. I have no problem with this approach.

And to think this was all about a stupid statue.

I don't know how much more they could have done to be honest. I wouldn't expect this guy to try to go in and preemptively shut these people down.
(https://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/598f8b9b140000381aed0668.jpg?ops=crop_0_123_749_601,scalefit_820_noupscale)

Why should he?  They have the right to peaceably assemble.   Yeah, we disagree with them, but so what?   Counter them with facts, with ideas and with truth.   


Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 15, 2017, 10:13:49 AM
That said, Trump's reaction to it was the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen out of an American president.  He truly is an abomination.

Why should he have done anything different?  If he calls THIS protest "domestic terrorism", then why weren't the liberal-based riots following the election also "domestic terrorism"?   This isn't about Trump's "failure" as a President, it's about not falling prey to PC requirements of faux outrage to preconceived evils.   These protestors are idiots.  They don't have one fact supporting their cause (I would bet my front row tix to Neal Morse and my meet and greet pass that the moron with the 82nd Airborne patch has NO FUCKING CLUE of the irony of his presentation).   

Counter bad ideas with good ones.   Denying that people exist, denying that people harbor unpopular ideas doesn't make them go away.  At least these people have the balls to stand there with no capes on or hoods or masks.  You KNOW that little smelly fucker is a racist, and can act appropriately.   We can now have a dialogue on WHY these people feel so frustrated (forget about emboldened; why do they feel so frustrated in the first place?) and can perhaps try to find a middle ground to deal with that.   
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 15, 2017, 10:17:40 AM
So, nobody likes neo-nazis. They've got very little support amongst the general population which mostly sees them as a joke. So why provide them more attention than they deserve? Seems to me that the counter-protest was counter-productive. It turned the whole thing into the spectacle they needed. Had everybody just ignored those knuckleheads nothing would have come of this. I defend both sides' right to march, protest, whatever. At the same time because you can do something doesn't mean that you should, and those asshat Nazis should have been the only people in town that day.

Honestly, what did the counter-protesters hope to achieve? Bigger numbers? Let people know they disapprove of something damn near everybody else already does? Any escalation they provide to the Nazis only furthers their cause by giving them a bigger microphone. Next time they decide to rally at a park somewhere, the counter-protest should take place 10 miles away. The organization should be to make sure that everybody avoids the area, so the only people who see them are a bunch of board cops.

I used to live about three miles from the court house outside of which Larry Flynt was shot and paralyzed (and ultimately confined to the wheelchair he uses to this day).    The week before I moved into my house there, the Klan staged a rally on the grounds adjacent to that courthouse.    The police - my brother was on the job at that point - increased patrols, but there was little press, there was little outrage, and as a result, there was little controversy.  A handful of locals yelled and screamed under their hoods, and after a couple hours, it was all over and the jokes (at the Klan's expense) began. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 15, 2017, 10:24:45 AM
So, nobody likes neo-nazis. They've got very little support amongst the general population which mostly sees them as a joke. So why provide them more attention than they deserve? Seems to me that the counter-protest was counter-productive. It turned the whole thing into the spectacle they needed. Had everybody just ignored those knuckleheads nothing would have come of this. I defend both sides' right to march, protest, whatever. At the same time because you can do something doesn't mean that you should, and those asshat Nazis should have been the only people in town that day.

Honestly, what did the counter-protesters hope to achieve? Bigger numbers? Let people know they disapprove of something damn near everybody else already does? Any escalation they provide to the Nazis only furthers their cause by giving them a bigger microphone. Next time they decide to rally at a park somewhere, the counter-protest should take place 10 miles away. The organization should be to make sure that everybody avoids the area, so the only people who see them are a bunch of board cops.

Spot. On.

I hear what you guys are saying, and all of me basically agrees. However, part of me is glad that people do this. I think it's important for the rest of the world, especially in today's political environment, to know that these people don't speak for this country, and there are many people in the US that seriously frown upon this behavior. If our own president won't denounce these groups, I'm glad someone else is.

I don't want other countries thinking that the majority of Americans are cool with this
(https://i.redditmedia.com/Pfbn57G_Vg-Dg6aVvE5iI4m-MVg1D5q8WtD7BjTi0gA.png?w=672&s=7038d0e345cdd4753cffd8333ac7b970)

But Chino, we can't put undue emphasis on this subjective, arbitrary, and transient "denouncement".  I don't want to be judged by someone else's arbitrary standard of what level of "denouncement" is enough.   I had family wiped out (in Poland) by Hitler's death squads.  I had two uncles land in Europe to (indirectly) try to save them, one in Normandy, and one in Italy.   I'm Catholic, but if you believe Ancestry.com, I have a non-negligible level of "Jew" in the family tree.   But I feel far more strongly about the rights and privileges of this country, that have survived for 240 years, and the right for these dirtbags to have contrary opinions, than I feel it necessary to state the glaringly obvious, and to put on faux piety and express a contrived outrage from my basement, wearing sweatpants and blaring Neal Morse records.   

I think Trump went far enough in his first statement.  I think his second statement came off contrived and forced (BECAUSE IT WAS), and at the end of the day... nothing has changed.  The people that hate him, hate him, and the people that support him, support him, and the people that are in between are still here with me, in between.   

Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 15, 2017, 10:42:24 AM
I don't believe that slavery was something that happened in the north. At least, I've never heard mention of it if it did. 

Did you skip history class in school? ;)

I admit that I very well could be missing/forgetting something that's obvious/common knowledge.

I do remember reading that it was legal for slave catchers from the south to cross borders into northern states to retrieve runaway slaves, but I don't remember seeing anything saying that it was legal in the north. Also, I think of the 3/5 compromise in the constitution as being a benefit to the south etc. etc...

The 3/5 compromise helped both sides.  It was not a judgment on the worth of the black man (as is often stated, wrongly, today) but rather a way of establishing representation.   When determining representation (number of Representatives in Congress, for example) the South wanted slaves to count man for man (they would get more reps that way).  The North didn't want them to count at all, on the grounds that if you didn't give them the rights and obligations under the Constitution, you shouldn't get the benefit of their presence in tallying the population for representation purposes.   The "3/5" was a way of bridging that gap.

Yes, the secession plans called for slavery to be a part of the new union, but the Founding Fathers had notoriously punted on the slavery issue, allowing that it was a problem, but understanding that there would be no union if it was made an issue, and the only way to RESOLVE the issue was to have a union.  It is a profound example of a Catch-22.   But the basis for slavery wasn't racism, or human rights, it was economic.   Only something like 10 to 20% of households owned  slaves.  They were expensive, and they were considered a taxable asset. There were even free Negro landowners in the south that owned slaves.    It is 240 years later and we see the difficulty in our farming enterprises being profitable; imagine 200 years ago, with the advent of the steam engine and the rest of the industrial revolution; slavery was very much a matter of survival for the Southern states.  The bigger issue was the idea of Federalism; that Washington could and did dictate the way of life for the given states... it was not an idea that swallowed easily. 

(And we wonder today about the power of our government, and issues like the Electoral College and what not.)


Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 15, 2017, 10:53:08 AM
I really don't understand, just from a practical standpoint,  how one is supposed to camly and rationally point by point refute a bunch of dudes with torches shouting nazi slogans... 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: axeman90210 on August 15, 2017, 10:54:38 AM
That said, Trump's reaction to it was the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen out of an American president.  He truly is an abomination.

Why should he have done anything different?  If he calls THIS protest "domestic terrorism", then why weren't the liberal-based riots following the election also "domestic terrorism"?   This isn't about Trump's "failure" as a President, it's about not falling prey to PC requirements of faux outrage to preconceived evils.   These protestors are idiots.  They don't have one fact supporting their cause (I would bet my front row tix to Neal Morse and my meet and greet pass that the moron with the 82nd Airborne patch has NO FUCKING CLUE of the irony of his presentation).   

Two things I would say. One, unless I'm failing to remember something, none of those post election protests featured anyone deliberately murdering anyone. A US citizen was murdered by a homegrown extremist. Especially given Trump's rhetoric against radical Islamic terrorism, failing to specifically call out these groups reeks of "it's only terrorism when brown people do it". Two, there are quotes from these people saying they were doing it to fulfill his vision, or something to that effect. Basically they think he's on their side. Given that shouldn't he make it clear that isn't the case.

Honestly, it's very much exacerbated by what he did as a candidate in a way that for many confirms fears about what kind of person/leader he was. He *did* do things on the campaign trail to give credence to the white nationalist movement (initially fail to disavow David Duke, give a press pass and interview access with one of his kids at one of his rallies to the host of a KKK/white supremacist podcast, use graphics/memes that were overtly or covertly racist and originated from one of the cesspools of the internet where these people congregate). He did have no problem calling out terrorist groups when the perpetrators were muslim.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 15, 2017, 11:42:59 AM
I really don't understand, just from a practical standpoint,  how one is supposed to camly and rationally point by point refute a bunch of dudes with torches shouting nazi slogans...
For one thing, why would you feel the need to? Would you want to calmly go point by point with a hysterical child about why she can't a pony, or would you rather wait until she's not acting like a rotten little shit? But more to the point, sometimes it's better to let nimrods collapse under their own stupidity. I saw Roger Waters last month, and he did something quite clever. Not once did he say anything about Trump. The only direct reference was the "TRUMP IS A PIG" message at the end of Pigs (and I still maintain that he's a Dog, BTW). What he did do was show lots of Trump quotes. Quotes that, as so many of his do, make him look like a complete idiot. Roger didn't need to badmouth Trump because Trump does such a bang-up job on his own. I'd say the same about the Nazi nimrods.

Simply put, you're not going to convince any of these people that they're wrong, and the attempt is only going to empower them.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 15, 2017, 02:16:13 PM
Looks like the cops declined to intervene in the toppling of the statue yesterday, but got video of everybody involved, who are now facing felony charges. Personally, I approve. Yet I suspect we're going to hear a ton of defense about prosecuting good people who only wanted to fight racism. You can hear the victim card approaching quickly. Man, I really hate being on the side of defending Clansmen and Nazis, but the opposite side is so fucking stupid I can't really defend them, either. And yet so few are willing to hear an argument that they're all a bunch of shitheads. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 15, 2017, 02:21:19 PM
That said, Trump's reaction to it was the most embarrassing thing I've ever seen out of an American president.  He truly is an abomination.

Why should he have done anything different?  If he calls THIS protest "domestic terrorism", then why weren't the liberal-based riots following the election also "domestic terrorism"?   This isn't about Trump's "failure" as a President, it's about not falling prey to PC requirements of faux outrage to preconceived evils.   These protestors are idiots.  They don't have one fact supporting their cause (I would bet my front row tix to Neal Morse and my meet and greet pass that the moron with the 82nd Airborne patch has NO FUCKING CLUE of the irony of his presentation).   

Two things I would say. One, unless I'm failing to remember something, none of those post election protests featured anyone deliberately murdering anyone. A US citizen was murdered by a homegrown extremist. Especially given Trump's rhetoric against radical Islamic terrorism, failing to specifically call out these groups reeks of "it's only terrorism when brown people do it". Two, there are quotes from these people saying they were doing it to fulfill his vision, or something to that effect. Basically they think he's on their side. Given that shouldn't he make it clear that isn't the case.

But for.  There was violence in those riots, and but for the fact that no one ACTUALLY died from it, we get to give them a pass?   

This logic of "Trump has to disavow" is ridiculous, I'm sorry.   Jodie Foster is not at all accountable when John Hinkley cites her as a rationale for his evil deeds.   

I get it, I do.  If there is a consistency issue, Trump has to account for that.  HE should be answering these questions, not me, and explaining his rationale.   If it bears scrutiny, then so be it, if not he should be accountable.

Quote
Honestly, it's very much exacerbated by what he did as a candidate in a way that for many confirms fears about what kind of person/leader he was. He *did* do things on the campaign trail to give credence to the white nationalist movement (initially fail to disavow David Duke, give a press pass and interview access with one of his kids at one of his rallies to the host of a KKK/white supremacist podcast, use graphics/memes that were overtly or covertly racist and originated from one of the cesspools of the internet where these people congregate). He did have no problem calling out terrorist groups when the perpetrators were muslim.

This is an impossible conversation.  You're (and not "you", I mean generally those criticizing Trump) are using a tautology.   You can't say he has to disavow this stuff, because he didn't disavow last time and some how this is a result of that.  "Disavowing" has nothing to do with it.  Presidents have been doing this PC response dance for decades and where are we?  We're STILL talking about this stuff.  We've been trying to ignore this heinous stuff and sweep it under the rug and pretend - like the press is now in the Trump press conference (one female reporter is trying to get Trump to say that the "alt-Left" is on the "same moral plane" as the "alt-Right" and her tone is so crystal clear - that there is no fucking way that they can possibly be on the "same moral plane" - as to be sickening; extremism is extremism, and we should view ALL extremism with skepticism) - that this stuff doesn't exist and shouldn't be talked about, and yet it gets worse and worse.    Most of these people don't want to have Hitler back, ddon't want to have a "white America"; they just don't want to be called stupid or deplorable.   
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 15, 2017, 02:21:58 PM
Looks like the cops declined to intervene in the toppling of the statue yesterday, but got video of everybody involved, who are now facing felony charges. Personally, I approve. Yet I suspect we're going to hear a ton of defense about prosecuting good people who only wanted to fight racism. You can hear the victim card approaching quickly. Man, I really hate being on the side of defending Clansmen and Nazis, but the opposite side is so fucking stupid I can't really defend them, either. And yet so few are willing to hear an argument that they're all a bunch of shitheads.

It's interesting. Did we consider the people who toppled Saddam's statues to be vandals or people celebrating their liberation? Same in tons of other countries.

Not taking sides on this specific issue, just pointing out that it's pretty different when it's your country vs. another country.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 15, 2017, 02:22:37 PM
Looks like the cops declined to intervene in the toppling of the statue yesterday, but got video of everybody involved, who are now facing felony charges. Personally, I approve. Yet I suspect we're going to hear a ton of defense about prosecuting good people who only wanted to fight racism. You can hear the victim card approaching quickly. Man, I really hate being on the side of defending Clansmen and Nazis, but the opposite side is so fucking stupid I can't really defend them, either. And yet so few are willing to hear an argument that they're all a bunch of shitheads.

WORD.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 15, 2017, 02:25:37 PM
Quote
Most of these people don't want to have Hitler back, ddon't want to have a "white America"; they just don't want to be called stupid or deplorable.   

Wait, who are you even talking about here?  THEY HAD ACTUAL SWASTIKAS
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 15, 2017, 02:33:15 PM
Looks like the cops declined to intervene in the toppling of the statue yesterday, but got video of everybody involved, who are now facing felony charges. Personally, I approve. Yet I suspect we're going to hear a ton of defense about prosecuting good people who only wanted to fight racism. You can hear the victim card approaching quickly. Man, I really hate being on the side of defending Clansmen and Nazis, but the opposite side is so fucking stupid I can't really defend them, either. And yet so few are willing to hear an argument that they're all a bunch of shitheads.

I don't mind people toppling statues (I know it's easy for me to say)  but I also have no problem with them facing the consequences of vandalism,  as long as the punishment fits the crime. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 15, 2017, 02:35:13 PM
Quote
Most of these people don't want to have Hitler back, ddon't want to have a "white America"; they just don't want to be called stupid or deplorable.   

Wait, who are you even talking about here?  THEY HAD ACTUAL SWASTIKAS

Okay, so?  Those people are nuts.  What are you hoping for me to say?  You want a platitude about how "heinous" they are, because they have a different idea of society than you or I have?  What does that do?  It stokes the fire.   

If every time I disagreed with you I responded to one of your posts with "Listen, you stupid deplorable dumbass crazy-ass fuck.  Just shut up, keep quiet, and agree with me, because I have numbers on my side, bitch."   How effective is that debate going to be? 

They don't have enough political will to win a free cup of coffee at Dunkin' Donuts, and yet the liberal media has now given them almost a week of free publicity, pictures all over the goddamn place, most importantly a CAUSE TO FIGHT FOR (the oppression of their rights by big gubmint and the libtard media*), and metaphorical bullhorn to spew their hate through.


*I'm making a point here.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 15, 2017, 03:05:12 PM
Does simply ignoring hate always work though? As someone else pointed out, the original Nazis were simply ignored and tolerated as well. It's not black and white.

This isn't the case of 4-5 people, this is thousands if not more. Their numbers don't suddenly shrink if we ignore them. Although I agree that violence is never the answer and don't believe they should ever be fought with violence.

I just think it's easy for people, especially those whom these groups have no issues with, to simply look the other way, while others, with whom these groups pose an actual threat, might not be able to do so easily.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cable on August 15, 2017, 03:08:01 PM
Does simply ignoring hate always work though? As someone else pointed out, the original Nazis were simply ignored and tolerated as well. It's not black and white.

This isn't the case of 4-5 people, this is thousands if not more. Their numbers don't suddenly shrink if we ignore them. Although I agree that violence is never the answer and don't believe they should ever be fought with violence.

I just think it's easy for people, especially those whom these groups have no issues with, to simply look the other way, while others, with whom these groups pose an actual threat, might not be able to do so easily.


Yup, Kershaw's famous statement of "the road to Auschwitz was built by hate, but paved with indifference."
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 15, 2017, 03:23:48 PM

I just think it's easy for people, especially those whom these groups have no issues with, to simply look the other way, while others, with whom these groups pose an actual threat, might not be able to do so easily.

very well said   :tup
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: TAC on August 15, 2017, 03:29:53 PM
I still cannot believe that "white supremacy" and the KKK are even things. I guess I'm dumb.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 15, 2017, 03:31:18 PM
These particular Nazis are neither tolerated nor accepted. They're mostly loathed by the overwhelming majority of citizens. I'm not suggesting that apathy or indifference is the solution. I'm suggesting that not giving voice to them is. Would we rather that they simmer and stew in their backyard fallout shelters or become a cause in the national spotlight?  All the last week has done was move them to the forefront of national attention and now they're going to milk it for everything it's worth. People are researching them. They're discussing their beliefs. Progressive nimrods are exposing themselves. While I think it's a damn shame, they got pitched a slow ball right over the plate and turned it into a 3-run moonshot, and they're clamoring for another at bat in the coming weeks. Which of course they'll get. Counter-protests will doubt in size now. Fascists will wear their shit-eating grins and progressive will wring their hands at how awful it all is and make bad Hitler analogies.

Stage your counter-protests. Just put it 10 miles away. Get news coverage of your thousands of people and make sure that if the Nazis get any coverage at all it just looks like a hundred dorks trying to look significant.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 15, 2017, 03:34:13 PM
Sometimes. Look at Westboro. There's counter protests to them all the time, and they're not getting more popular.

It sounds really nice to assume that ignoring them will make them dissolve, but honestly that's just not how these things work. It makes them try harder and recruit more. Plus, the cultural zeitgeist right now really breeds a lot of those sentiments. So they're not going to fizzle out. They're going to get bigger either way. And if ignored, they can more subtly infiltrate higher society and become more powerful.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 15, 2017, 03:39:37 PM

Stage your counter-protests. Just put it 10 miles away. Get news coverage of your thousands of people and make sure that if the Nazis get any coverage at all it just looks like a hundred dorks trying to look significant.

This I could potentially get behind.  It's what the women's march post-inauguration was, sort of.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: bosk1 on August 15, 2017, 03:42:10 PM
Sometimes. Look at Westboro. There's counter protests to them all the time, and they're not getting more popular.

It sounds really nice to assume that ignoring them will make them dissolve, but honestly that's just not how these things work. It makes them try harder and recruit more. Plus, the cultural zeitgeist right now really breeds a lot of those sentiments. So they're not going to fizzle out. They're going to get bigger either way. And if ignored, they can more subtly infiltrate higher society and become more powerful.
But again, Barto isn't saying to ignore them.  He's saying to not give voice to them.  That's an important distinction.

But not matter what, they aren't going to "dissolve."  I don't think he's saying that is the goal.  And that's because it is an impossible goal, no matter the approach.  They won't dissolve.  But they won't have power either. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 15, 2017, 03:53:15 PM
The problem now is that the counter-protests are staged for confrontation. What good can possibly come from such a battle? I can't point to numerous harms that will result.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 15, 2017, 04:09:46 PM
So I have two hypothetical question for people (well, they're the same thing just inverted). If it's been asked before, my bad.

Say the original gathering was a pro ISIS (or IS, ISIL, whatever) demonstration. Then there was a counter protest. Then one of the pro ISIS people ran into them with a car and killed one. Would there be a different reaction?

And inverted.

Say the original gathering was anti-ISIS demonstration. Then there was a pro ISIS counter protest. Then one of the anti-ISIS people ran into them with a car and killed one. What would be the reaction?

I have a feeling the questions are going to be sidestepped, but I'd be curious. And this isn't necessarily coming from your perspective. How would Trump have responded to either? How would the media or general population?
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Elite on August 15, 2017, 04:17:34 PM
It's time for this motherfucker to get out of the White House. When the KKK starts agreeing with you, you're doing something very, very wrong. Your president is an openly racist, white supremacist lunatic and it's completely and utterly ridiculous that he's still holding that position while making your whole country look like idiots.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cool Chris on August 15, 2017, 04:39:02 PM
And inverted.

(https://www.americangrit.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/becauseiwasinverted.jpg)

If an ISIS member killed a counter-protester, it would be viewed differently, as their stated goal is to, well, kill us. Which they have done. So publicly, it would be viewed differently. That may be bad optics, but that's what would happen. Your inverted question has me stumped though, I can't say with any certainly how that would play out.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: antigoon on August 15, 2017, 04:59:43 PM
(https://puu.sh/xb27k/7f403be6cb.png)

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 15, 2017, 05:05:51 PM

Say the original gathering was a pro ISIS (or IS, ISIL, whatever) demonstration. Then there was a counter protest. Then one of the pro ISIS people ran into them with a car and killed one. Would there be a different reaction?
Well, who's on what side makes no difference whatsoever. But since you asked:

"This is why we have to confront radical Islam, which I am doing. This is why we need more secure borders, like what my wonderful immigration ban would insure. It's wonderful. If so-called judges had instituted my ban originally this might not have happened. That beautiful young lady wouldn't have been killed by the terrorists that Obama, the democrats, and so-called judges allowed to be here."


Quote
Say the original gathering was anti-ISIS demonstration. Then there was a pro ISIS counter protest. Then one of the anti-ISIS people ran into them with a car and killed one. What would be the reaction?
"There is no place in this country for ISIS and we should never allow them to openly hold such rallies. The real Americans were the ones standing up to them by exercising their right to protest."

In reality the blame is 100% on the asshole driving the car. If we're to start looking at contributing factors then some responsibility comes down to both sides of the debate, and I'd probably shift most of it to the counter- side as they're the ones inviting confrontation. Whether it's pro- or anti- this or that doesn't really matter. That's why some of us get bent out of shape when these things invariably become political footballs. Neither side has the monopoly on what's right, despite assurances from both sides to the contrary and their tendency to judge things based on their feelings.


edit: and as an aside, trying to write like that nimrod really makes my brain hurt.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: KevShmev on August 15, 2017, 05:56:09 PM
I think some (not you) have deluded themselves into thinking "the north is and was always so enlightened, while the south is filled with nothing but backwards, racist hicks."
I wouldn't put it quite so starkly, but from what I've seen people up North almost always see the civil war as 100% about slavery and reminders of it nothing but monuments from soar losers. Down here things seem to be a bit more nuanced. While there are certainly some racist assholes who celebrate Lee for the wrong reasons, they're the exception.

From my perspective, before he was turned into a political football, Lee was a complicated fellow. He was certainly a slave owner, but he didn't seem to share Lincoln's animosity towards the negro and his opinions on slavery as an institution were complex. Sadly, complexity and nuance are becoming as antiquated and obsolete as statues of the confederacy when it comes to discussions about race. There's simply no room for it in an increasingly dumbed down, binary discussion.

As for myself, I'm not in any position to judge Lee's attitude towards the races, but he certainly seemed to be on better footing than the so-called union heroes of the civil war. As far as I'm concerned his record before and after the war leave room for a bit of statuary regardless of assumptions about his attitudes on race. Before the war he was commandant of the US Military Academy at West Point. He served well for the Army in numerous battles. He turned Washington and Lee into a very successful university and something of a model to go forward. These sorts of things mean more to me than the simple bleating of "but, but, but, slavery!", stated without any reasonable context or rationale.

Great post!  :tup :tup
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: pogoowner on August 15, 2017, 06:11:28 PM
I'm curious how the results of being "outed" will affect further white nationalist demonstrations. The social media mob has identified a huge percentage of those who participated in that rally, and some have lost their jobs already. Does that discourage people from participating in the future? Do they disguise themselves? Or are these people too far gone to care anyway?
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 15, 2017, 07:45:41 PM
Continuing the thread of El Barto's talk about General Lee (the guy, not the car), I thought this piece was interesting:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments/ (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments/)

Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: portnoy311 on August 15, 2017, 08:09:00 PM
 @MittRomney
No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes.
5:14 PM - 15 Aug 2017


Mitt is a palatable conservative. I wish he had run.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 15, 2017, 08:19:27 PM
Continuing the thread of El Barto's talk about General Lee (the guy, not the car), I thought this piece was interesting:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments/ (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments/)


The interesting part, for me at least, is how he would have felt 40 years later, when the acrimony had settled down. When the statues started going up the North and South were getting along just fine, united in the common goal of keeping the black folk down. In any case, another example of Lee being more complicated than people want to give him credit for.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: TAC on August 15, 2017, 08:20:03 PM
Mitt is a palpable conservative. I wish he had run.

He did.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: portnoy311 on August 15, 2017, 08:27:40 PM
Great, I was clearly talking about 2016.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: antigoon on August 15, 2017, 08:55:08 PM
@MittRomney
No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes.
5:14 PM - 15 Aug 2017


Mitt is a palatable conservative. I wish he had run.

That's a nice thing to say, and it's obviously true, but we've learned nothing about Trump in the past few days that we haven't known for a long time and if Romney was truly opposed to this guy he (and other "never trump" conservatives) could have actually endorsed Trump's opponent.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: kingshmegland on August 15, 2017, 09:03:14 PM
The problem is that politics is a business and there are pressures from your party.  This is a bold step for Romney to say. He deserves credit
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: PowerSlave on August 15, 2017, 09:43:34 PM
I don't believe that slavery was something that happened in the north. At least, I've never heard mention of it if it did. 

Did you skip history class in school? ;)

I admit that I very well could be missing/forgetting something that's obvious/common knowledge.

I do remember reading that it was legal for slave catchers from the south to cross borders into northern states to retrieve runaway slaves, but I don't remember seeing anything saying that it was legal in the north. Also, I think of the 3/5 compromise in the constitution as being a benefit to the south etc. etc...

The 3/5 compromise helped both sides.  It was not a judgment on the worth of the black man (as is often stated, wrongly, today) but rather a way of establishing representation.   When determining representation (number of Representatives in Congress, for example) the South wanted slaves to count man for man (they would get more reps that way).  The North didn't want them to count at all, on the grounds that if you didn't give them the rights and obligations under the Constitution, you shouldn't get the benefit of their presence in tallying the population for representation purposes.   The "3/5" was a way of bridging that gap.

Yes, the secession plans called for slavery to be a part of the new union, but the Founding Fathers had notoriously punted on the slavery issue, allowing that it was a problem, but understanding that there would be no union if it was made an issue, and the only way to RESOLVE the issue was to have a union.  It is a profound example of a Catch-22.   But the basis for slavery wasn't racism, or human rights, it was economic.   Only something like 10 to 20% of households owned  slaves.  They were expensive, and they were considered a taxable asset. There were even free Negro landowners in the south that owned slaves.    It is 240 years later and we see the difficulty in our farming enterprises being profitable; imagine 200 years ago, with the advent of the steam engine and the rest of the industrial revolution; slavery was very much a matter of survival for the Southern states.  The bigger issue was the idea of Federalism; that Washington could and did dictate the way of life for the given states... it was not an idea that swallowed easily. 

(And we wonder today about the power of our government, and issues like the Electoral College and what not.)

I do realize that the 3/5 compromise was a representation issue, but I keep running into a mental roadblock with it from a couple of aspects.

1. The slaves weren't considered citizens of the colonies. From my understanding, they were considered to be property that had no more rights than a farm animal. How can a piece of property be granted full or partial representation in any government?

2. The second thing kind of goes hand in hand with the first, but in my view a representative government should be held in check by being answerable to its constituents. How can someone represent someone/something (based on that person being considered property with no rights) that they don't have to answer to?

I realize that I have a 20th-21st century liberal mindset about it, and that I'm far removed from situation by a few centuries, but I'm failing to grasp the rationale behind it at all. A representative government should be constrained to the number of citizens that it answers to directly, and those that it serves. At the time of the writing of the constitution, it only really fully served rich white land owners. In turn, this was a boon to the states in the south. The House of Representatives was initially setup to grant more power to a region of the country that did less in service to those in its area than the other part of the country, unless you consider holding another human being captive, under the constant threat of death, physical punishment or spontaneous removal from your family and familiar surroundings as being in service to them.

As you mentioned, I understand why the representatives from the northern colonies did this. They had to give something to entice their southern counterparts, but the thought behind it will always baffle me. Maybe that's my short coming, but I'm reluctant to give in to that.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 15, 2017, 10:24:14 PM
The problem is that politics is a business and there are pressures from your party.  This is a bold step for Romney to say. He deserves credit

It's a sad day when being anti-nazi is something to really praise someone for.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 15, 2017, 11:30:49 PM
If an ISIS member killed a counter-protester, it would be viewed differently, as their stated goal is to, well, kill us. Which they have done. So publicly, it would be viewed differently. That may be bad optics, but that's what would happen. Your inverted question has me stumped though, I can't say with any certainly how that would play out.


The stated mission of the Nazis and KKK and so forth is also to kill people. In the case of the Nazis, destroying America was up there.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: jingle.boy on August 15, 2017, 11:33:27 PM
The problem is that politics is a business and there are pressures from your party.  This is a bold step for Romney to say. He deserves credit

It's a sad day when being anti-nazi is something to really praise someone for.

It's quite disturbing to see what is so quickly and easily normalized in the US.  No offense Joe, but publicly stating the obvious should not be considered "bold".
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cool Chris on August 15, 2017, 11:53:12 PM
The stated mission of the Nazis and KKK and so forth is also to kill people. In the case of the Nazis, destroying America was up there.

Fair enough, I typed that on my lunch break from building a deck all day, and it made sense at the time.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 16, 2017, 12:02:18 AM
The stated mission of the Nazis and KKK and so forth is also to kill people. In the case of the Nazis, destroying America was up there.

Fair enough, I typed that on my lunch break from building a deck all day, and it made sense at the time.

Haha no I totally got you. I think in my original question, it was people who support ISIS and not necessarily people who want to murder everyone.

Since a lot of the people defending the white nationalists say that every single view point should be allowed (which I agree), but that would include ISIS supporters.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cool Chris on August 16, 2017, 12:25:30 AM
Since a lot of the people defending the white nationalists say that every single view point should be allowed (which I agree), but that would include ISIS supporters.
[/quote]

Viewpoints, yes, right to assemble, protest... within the confines of the law.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 16, 2017, 12:28:36 AM
Since a lot of the people defending the white nationalists say that every single view point should be allowed (which I agree), but that would include ISIS supporters.

Viewpoints, yes, right to assemble, protest... within the confines of the law.
[/quote]

Exactly. Which I meant to imply in my original questions. Assuming of course, people think the white nationalists kept everything within the confines of the law (minus the whole killing the other people of course).
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 06:05:18 AM
Does simply ignoring hate always work though? As someone else pointed out, the original Nazis were simply ignored and tolerated as well. It's not black and white.

This isn't the case of 4-5 people, this is thousands if not more. Their numbers don't suddenly shrink if we ignore them. Although I agree that violence is never the answer and don't believe they should ever be fought with violence.

I just think it's easy for people, especially those whom these groups have no issues with, to simply look the other way, while others, with whom these groups pose an actual threat, might not be able to do so easily.

But my point is their numbers don't shrink by lowering ourselves to their standards.   Look, Trump's a maniac, but he wasn't totally wrong in his press conference yesterday:   it takes two to riot.   I think we are advanced enough, and educated enough and intelligent enough to see the difference between a party that had secured elected office, including the highest position in the land, and a group - be it single digits or "thousands" (I tend to think the rally was somewhere in between) - that is pleading for publicity any way it can get it.   

And who's to say I don't have issue?   Who's to say that they DON'T pose an actual threat?  This isn't about ME (or any one person).  That's the point.  What's good for ME (or any one person) may not be good for the collective.   We have this mindset today, in the Twitter age, that MY FEELINGS MATTER, and what is good for MY FEELINGS somehow MUST BE good for everyone.  I call bullshit on that, hardcore.  It's why I spend so much time defending the attacks against people I disagree with (vehemently, in some cases).  What's good for me has no bearing whatsoever on - and is sometimes antithetical to - what is good for the collective.   

Society is an implicit contract between people wherein we consciously agree that our individual rights may come in conflict, and we (used to, anyway) agree that in such cases, we would find a way to compromise those rights so that the most people still have the most rights.  We agree that we can have different opinions, and we agree that as long as we don't act on them, we're good.  We agree our freedom of, say, privacy is such that I can't exert that if it means that my actions deprive you of one of your other rights, like "life".   It's all a compromise of rights.   And it's funny, because nowhere in any of the documentation supporting this country, not in the Declaration of Independence, not in the Constitution, not in the Bill of Rights, not in any of the writings of the Founding Fathers, not in any of the State Constitutions (some of which contributed to the national documents) is there the right to deny someone else their rights in any way shape or form in order for your right to be offended to be preserved.   
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 06:10:11 AM
So I have two hypothetical question for people (well, they're the same thing just inverted). If it's been asked before, my bad.

Say the original gathering was a pro ISIS (or IS, ISIL, whatever) demonstration. Then there was a counter protest. Then one of the pro ISIS people ran into them with a car and killed one. Would there be a different reaction?

And inverted.

Say the original gathering was anti-ISIS demonstration. Then there was a pro ISIS counter protest. Then one of the anti-ISIS people ran into them with a car and killed one. What would be the reaction?

I have a feeling the questions are going to be sidestepped, but I'd be curious. And this isn't necessarily coming from your perspective. How would Trump have responded to either? How would the media or general population?

I can't and won't try to put myself in Trump's brain to see how he would have responded.   But the response to the two scenarios WOULD have been different, and that's the problem.   You'd have people rationalizing their side, and whichever group seemed to have "numbers", the media would have fed that like your concubine feeds you grapes.   

It's REALLY bugging me, 16 hours later (plus or minus) the way that female reporter kept on at Trump about "So, are you saying that the alt-Left and the alt-Right are just as bad?"   "So, President Trump, are you REALLY saying that the alt-Left is just as bad as the alt-Right?" as if the answer was plain as the cold sore on your upper lip.    Yeah, EXTREMISM IS BAD, lady.  And you have to stop embracing so readily your OWN extremism as somehow "controllable" and "just" when it suits you. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 06:17:16 AM
It's time for this motherfucker to get out of the White House. When the KKK starts agreeing with you, you're doing something very, very wrong. Your president is an openly racist, white supremacist lunatic and it's completely and utterly ridiculous that he's still holding that position while making your whole country look like idiots.


What?  Since when do we witch hunt our leaders because of innuendo and personal perception?  (Wait...)

I don't at all agree with that highly emotional analysis.  He's a fucking idiot, but unfortunately, that's not grounds for impeachment (we've had two relative idiots since I was born, and we'll have more, unfortunately).  That someone else agrees with you - good or bad - is not grounds for impeachment.    Personally, I think the vast majority of people in the United States understand that racism is narrow-minded, limiting and ultimately not a productive line of thought.   I believe in the power of ideas, I believe in the power of debate, and I believe, ultimately, that racism will be defeated by peaceful means, through every person doing their best each day to live a race-free life.   

I am far more bothered when a group like the Teachers Union agrees with my President, because it means we've got 50% of the population that is economically up their ass, and THAT'S truly dangerous.   Those are what experts call "numbers".    That a group agrees - or can find agreement in their twisted maniacal view of the world - with a President doesn't mean that they're right, or that the President is wrong. 

It's just that some how "race" has been framed as the "Silver Bullet Issue"TM that trumps all things, including reason, fairness, the right to disagree, and the obligation to abide by the law. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Chino on August 16, 2017, 06:18:05 AM
Does simply ignoring hate always work though? As someone else pointed out, the original Nazis were simply ignored and tolerated as well. It's not black and white.

This isn't the case of 4-5 people, this is thousands if not more. Their numbers don't suddenly shrink if we ignore them. Although I agree that violence is never the answer and don't believe they should ever be fought with violence.

I just think it's easy for people, especially those whom these groups have no issues with, to simply look the other way, while others, with whom these groups pose an actual threat, might not be able to do so easily.

But my point is their numbers don't shrink by lowering ourselves to their standards.  Look, Trump's a maniac, but he wasn't totally wrong in his press conference yesterday:   it takes two to riot.   I think we are advanced enough, and educated enough and intelligent enough to see the difference between a party that had secured elected office, including the highest position in the land, and a group - be it single digits or "thousands" (I tend to think the rally was somewhere in between) - that is pleading for publicity any way it can get it.   


He's definitely not wrong in that regard, but he's entirely wrong in how he says it. He words these little outbursts in such a way that make it seems like he thinks the "alt-left" and these KKK and Nazi folk are equally horrible (I think that he actually does for the record). These situations need to be handled delicately, and vindicating a group of people that would hang liberals in the street (I don't mean that figuratively) if given the chance isn't the way to do it. He could have expressed deep disgust at the fact that we have Nazis and KKK members marching through our streets, while at the same time acknowledging the reality that there has been recorded incidents of violence from protesters at gatherings such as these. Instead of shouting over and interrupting reporters, or walking out of the room when a question hits too close to home, we need someone who can stand with demeanor and calmly answer questions in a mature and presidential way.  He needs to acknowledge the anger the "alt-left" feels, but plead with them to not escalate it to violence. Do not come armed. Do not damage property. Do not instigate and record for instagram likes. Exercise your rights as Americans to protest, but don't behave like the people you're trying to condemn. He also needs to emphasize over and over again that this is a very small subset of people, on both sides. Not all democrats/liberals are part of the antifa movement, and not all republicans are kkk members and nazi sympathizers. But he can't. He's either not smart enough, not well spoken enough, or deliberately going out of his way to not anger the small, true group of supporters that he has.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 06:23:11 AM
I'm curious how the results of being "outed" will affect further white nationalist demonstrations. The social media mob has identified a huge percentage of those who participated in that rally, and some have lost their jobs already. Does that discourage people from participating in the future? Do they disguise themselves? Or are these people too far gone to care anyway?

It will, in my opinion, make the fringe people, who don't fully buy in, scared to voice their opinion (which is a wonderful thing in a democracy, huh?).   It will embolden and empower the hard core, by giving them a cause to stand behind.  "I was silenced by the liberal-loving, commie bureaucracy that can't abide a little truth now and again."  Actually, that's not entirely true, because they won't know what a word like "abide" means.   But they will gain a temporary justification, blaming their job loss on the Jews, or the N*****s, or someone else, anyone but themselves.   "Racism" is not a condition that survives a tremendous amount of self-scrutiny, and that kind of hate only festers in an environment of self-hate. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 16, 2017, 06:25:11 AM
edit: nevermind it's too early for me to read Stadler's posts    carry on
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Chino on August 16, 2017, 06:26:54 AM
So what would YOU say Stadler if you met one those Nazis face to face?   You'd chit chat over tea and and crumpet and say he makes some good points?

For the record, Stadler and I disagree on a ton of stuff and we got along in a parking lot just fine (I think).
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 06:30:59 AM
@MittRomney
No, not the same. One side is racist, bigoted, Nazi. The other opposes racism and bigotry. Morally different universes.
5:14 PM - 15 Aug 2017


Mitt is a palatable conservative. I wish he had run.

That's a nice thing to say, and it's obviously true, but we've learned nothing about Trump in the past few days that we haven't known for a long time and if Romney was truly opposed to this guy he (and other "never trump" conservatives) could have actually endorsed Trump's opponent.

You learned nothing.  You have taken those bits that fit the world view that you already had, and rejected those pieces that don't fit.  Just like people have been doing for months.

I get CNN newsfeeds on my phone, and it's blowing up to day with "the REAL Donald Trump has exposed himself" and "Now we know the REAL Donald Trump".  You know shit.   Trump is pandering to all sides like he has for months going on years.  He's argumentative, and he can't POSSIBLY agree with the "Fake News Liberal Media".    This isn't about Trump's true colors, least of all as a "racist". Honestly?  I don't think he cares one way or the other.   Being a "racist" requires him to dig in, take a stand, and take a side, and he can't do that.   

And as a sort of quasi-"Never Trump", you're dead wrong.   He DID oppose Trump at the primary stage, but the Republicans, unlike the Democrats led by Debbie Wasserman-Scrimshaw, who decided to ram their preferred candidate through (and we see how effective that was), let the process play out the way it was supposed to.    At the national election stage, well, I don't know how Mitt voted, personally, but believe me, the choices were not good.  "A guy who COULD be a racist, COULD be a closet Democrat, but also COULD be the businessman and practical leader we know we need" versus a career politician who's sense of entitlement wafted through every room she was in like a Taco Bell/Schlitz beer fart, and who perjured herself repeatedly to avoid further investigations into a crime that could (in her view) derail her destiny... please.     
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 06:34:50 AM
The problem is that politics is a business and there are pressures from your party.  This is a bold step for Romney to say. He deserves credit

It's a sad day when being anti-nazi is something to really praise someone for.

It's quite disturbing to see what is so quickly and easily normalized in the US.  No offense Joe, but publicly stating the obvious should not be considered "bold".

What's "normalized"?   Who has "normalized" Nazi-ism?    Allowing someone their rights to express themselves doesn't in and of itself "normalize" the content of that speech.   "Normalization" happens individually.   

What's a shock to me is how readily we are to trample on people's constitutional rights to peaceably demonstrate, and to hold a contrary view just because we don't like the message.  What's - unfortunately - been "normalized" is this idea that because someone is "offended" that someone else must logically be held accountable.   
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 06:44:55 AM
Does simply ignoring hate always work though? As someone else pointed out, the original Nazis were simply ignored and tolerated as well. It's not black and white.

This isn't the case of 4-5 people, this is thousands if not more. Their numbers don't suddenly shrink if we ignore them. Although I agree that violence is never the answer and don't believe they should ever be fought with violence.

I just think it's easy for people, especially those whom these groups have no issues with, to simply look the other way, while others, with whom these groups pose an actual threat, might not be able to do so easily.

But my point is their numbers don't shrink by lowering ourselves to their standards.  Look, Trump's a maniac, but he wasn't totally wrong in his press conference yesterday:   it takes two to riot.   I think we are advanced enough, and educated enough and intelligent enough to see the difference between a party that had secured elected office, including the highest position in the land, and a group - be it single digits or "thousands" (I tend to think the rally was somewhere in between) - that is pleading for publicity any way it can get it.   


He's definitely not wrong in that regard, but he's entirely wrong in how he says it. He words these little outbursts in such a way that make it seems like he thinks the "alt-left" and these KKK and Nazi folk are equally horrible (I think that he actually does for the record).

So do I, for the record.   I'm an idea guy.  The idea is sacred, and at the end of the day, I truly believe the good ideas will outlast the bad.    I disagree with extremism, and I believe that from an extreme idea perspective, the alt-Left and the alt-Right are equally bad.   They both seek to tell others how to think, how to live their lives, and what choices they should be making.    And while it might be more overt on the right (or should I say, in a form that we more readily recognize and feel disgust toward) the violence on the left is every bit as real, and every bit as destructive.   

Look, say what you want, the videos of the counter-protestors BEATING the protestors with sticks and fist is still, when you boil it down, one human beating another because they have different ideas.  I find that morally and practically abhorrent. 

Quote
These situations need to be handled delicately, and vindicating a group of people that would hang liberals in the street (I don't mean that figuratively) if given the chance isn't the way to do it. He could have expressed deep disgust at the fact that we have Nazis and KKK members marching through our streets, while at the same time acknowledging the reality that there has been recorded incidents of violence from protesters at gatherings such as these.

Chino, I listened to the press conference in real time.  THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE DID.  I heard it with my own two ears.  And by the way, no one (that I know, anyway) is "vindicating" any group.  The Nazi and KKK groups are not right.   Their ideas are not conducive to a democracy where everyone is created equal.    Hearing them out is not "vindicating" them.   We let criminals, as a matter of law and a matter of right, be heard in EVERY criminal case we have.  That does not in any way "vindicate" those that actually committed their crimes.


Quote
Instead of shouting over and interrupting reporters, or walking out of the room when a question hits too close to home, we need someone who can stand with demeanor and calmly answer questions in a mature and presidential way.  He needs to acknowledge the anger the "alt-left" feels, but plead with them to not escalate it to violence. Do not come armed. Do not damage property. Do not instigate and record for instagram likes. Exercise your rights as Americans to protest, but don't behave like the people you're trying to condemn. He also needs to emphasize over and over again that this is a very small subset of people, on both sides. Not all democrats/liberals are part of the antifa movement, and not all republicans are kkk members and nazi sympathizers. But he can't. He's either not smart enough, not well spoken enough, or deliberately going out of his way to not anger the small, true group of supporters that he has.

I agree with all of this 100%.  I think you're spot on on this.   He DID handle it poorly.  He was angry.  I think the Trump haters (somehow, YOUR hate is good, but other's hate?   Not so much...) have it wrong that he was angry at an ideology being attacked.  I think he was angry that HE was being attacked.  That the media didn't report what he saw, and that being a President who is measured, fair, and willing to look at both sides.    He THOUGHT he was being Kennedy on that podium.   What he didn't know is that it was Jamie, not John F.   But that's a very big and important difference. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Nekov on August 16, 2017, 06:54:27 AM

What's "normalized"?   Who has "normalized" Nazi-ism?    Allowing someone their rights to express themselves doesn't in and of itself "normalize" the content of that speech.   "Normalization" happens individually.   

What's a shock to me is how readily we are to trample on people's constitutional rights to peaceably demonstrate, and to hold a contrary view just because we don't like the message. 

So you think it's ok for people to propagate hate speech?These people were holding flags from a regime that killed millions of people because of their religion, becuase of their skin color, because they didn't think the same way the leaders did. So it's not like people are against this because it's contrary to their beliefs. As Adami pointed out before, tolerating this kind of thing doesn't make it go away but only makes these people feel more empowered to do so and spread their message of hate. And sure as hell Trump should have condemned this, because by not doing it a lot of people now think it's ok to spread that hate. And yes, there's lots of people that will think this is disgusting,  but there are others who might think similarly and join the movemet, which again, won't make them go away.

I believe in the power of ideas, I believe in the power of debate, and I believe, ultimately, that racism will be defeated by peaceful means, through every person doing their best each day to live a race-free life.   

That's very nice but how will you do that if you let these kind of people influence others? How is racism going to dissapear when you let people be openly racist and say it's ok because it's their right to be so? And please be honest, do you really think you could sit down with those guys and by the power of your ideas and your debate skills be able to show them that being racist is wrong?
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 07:00:59 AM
So what would YOU say Stadler if you met one those Nazis face to face?   You'd chit chat over tea and and crumpet and say he makes some good points?

For the record, Stadler and I disagree on a ton of stuff and we got along in a parking lot just fine (I think).

You don't think, you know.   I'm looking forward to the next one, frankly.   

As for the deleted post from XeRocks81, I don't know.  That's one option.   I don't usually talk politics in strange situations with people I don't know, but there's a 100 ways to handle that, and very few of them involve taking a club and hitting them for having a different idea.    I'm not perfect, and I'm not immune - I've only punched one person since I was 18 that wasn't on a hockey rink, and it was a scumbag that referred to my friend as "n*****".   Not proud of it, and I feel like I was no better than him at the end of the day, even if it meant something to my friend (who, it turns out, never heard the slur to start with).   

Funny though; I'm supposedly the "arch conservative" and the "Trump guy" (NOT!!!), but I have to DIFFUSE violence more often than I have to get into it with people.  I tell the story often about being in my local bar in Philly, and mentioning how I wasn't impressed with either Obama or McCain, and joking whether I could get four more of Bush (this was around the time of the first Obama election; probably around August or so of 2008) and this kid with his big glasses (the kind that Zoe Deschanel wears on "New Girl" and that no one wears unless they are making a fashion statement) and his man-purse and his trendy faux military jacket got all up in my grill about how I could ever support that murderer and war criminal, and he pushed me into the bar.  I'm not that big - 5'8", 230 at the time - and I had three inches and about 70 pounds on this kid, and I calmly went around him, sat down in his booth, and said, "Sit down, junior." and I sat down with him and his friends and explained my comment.  We weren't magically friends, and we didn't solve world peace, but it diffused whatever violence was there.   I know I didn't change his mind, but I don't know if I gave him anything to think about or not.   Who knows?  My mission isn't to get people to think like me.  It's to get them thinking, period.  They'll come to whatever the right answer is over time (as will I, since I know for a fact - I'm human - that I don't have it all right). 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: antigoon on August 16, 2017, 07:14:18 AM
the "alt left" is not a real thing, by the way.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Chino on August 16, 2017, 07:16:06 AM
the "alt left" is not a real thing, by the way.

[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 07:20:08 AM

What's "normalized"?   Who has "normalized" Nazi-ism?    Allowing someone their rights to express themselves doesn't in and of itself "normalize" the content of that speech.   "Normalization" happens individually.   

What's a shock to me is how readily we are to trample on people's constitutional rights to peaceably demonstrate, and to hold a contrary view just because we don't like the message. 

So you think it's ok for people to propagate hate speech?These people were holding flags from a regime that killed millions of people because of their religion, becuase of their skin color, because they didn't think the same way the leaders did. So it's not like people are against this because it's contrary to their beliefs. As Adami pointed out before, tolerating this kind of thing doesn't make it go away but only makes these people feel more empowered to do so and spread their message of hate. And sure as hell Trump should have condemned this, because by not doing it a lot of people now think it's ok to spread that hate. And yes, there's lots of people that will think this is disgusting,  but there are others who might think similarly and join the movemet, which again, won't make them go away.

I disagree.   They feel empowered when they get a rise out of the "n***** loving, J** led media" and all the "libtards that follow that NL,JL media".    You're playing right into their hands.

I don't condone propagating hate speech.  That's not hate speech, though.   You don't like it, it embodies "hate", but it's not "hate speech".   Not my law, not my determination, but the law of the land.   I've already said; I find it abhorrent.  I lost family in a camp in Poland.  I get it. 

But your logic is not sound.   How come someone says "I hate blacks!" and magically it transforms people into raving monsters, and corrupts minds and breeds hate and fosters war and blah blah blah, but it's dismissed as petty bigoted bullshit when the protestors say that "promoting marijuana will turn our kids into drug addicts".   I don't at all believe that just by saying it it renders all this power.  They are still BAD ideas.   


Quote
I believe in the power of ideas, I believe in the power of debate, and I believe, ultimately, that racism will be defeated by peaceful means, through every person doing their best each day to live a race-free life.   

That's very nice but how will you do that if you let these kind of people influence others? How is racism going to dissapear when you let people be openly racist and say it's ok because it's their right to be so? And please be honest, do you really think you could sit down with those guys and by the power of your ideas and your debate skills be able to show them that being racist is wrong?

"Let them influence others"?   What, are people hypmotized sheep that can't form a coherent thought for themselves?   Do you honestly think there are millions of people sitting at home saying "you know, honey, I think that guy with the no teeth and the pretty flag has a point.  Kids, whaddya say, want to kill some immigrants next vacation?"    Racism, I believe, WILL disappear if you let those ideas out in the sunlight (I question the use of the word "be"; what does that mean?  I'm not advocating letting them kill minorities or take action that deprives someone else of their rights). 

I don't at all think that I could sit down with them and "show them that being a racist is wrong".  So what?  That's not the point.   My job isn't to get the entire population to think like me.  If someone wants to be a racist, that's their business, and I'm not really that interested in changing them.  What I would hope to do is to touch that next wave, that wave that doesn't take what the generation that came before says on faith, but has to figure it out for themselves, and give them the chance to hear both ideas.   Not only, in my view, does the racist viewpoint not hold water, but it makes the NON racist viewpoint make more sense.   

I don't get this mindset that says "all bad things are like plague and we have to snuff them out, because even mentioning them will breed more of it!" but kind of ignores that there are exponentially more people preaching the good side and it's not eradicating the plagues.  I'm in the middle of "The Order of the Phoenix" right now, and I can't help but think that J.K. Rowling was on to something when she had every character say "You Know Who" and cringe when someone said "Voldemort", but Dumbledore and Harry Potter - not at all coincidentally the two that did the most to actually STOP Voldemort - were the only two characters to refuse to use the euphemism. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: antigoon on August 16, 2017, 07:20:41 AM
Quote
[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.


people have been self-identifying as alt-right for a while now. It's a specific term those guys chose for themselves that has meaning. "alt-left" started as a smear by centrist democrats against people to the left and now Trump is using it. Also there's no equivalence between white supremacists and what...people who want single payer and state-funded higher-education? C'mon.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 07:20:53 AM
the "alt left" is not a real thing, by the way.

[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.

Exactly. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 16, 2017, 07:27:13 AM
Quote
[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.


people have been self-identifying as alt-right for a while now. It's a specific term those guys chose for themselves that has meaning. "alt-left" started as a smear by centrist democrats against people to the left and now Trump is using it. Also there's no equivocation between white supremacists and what...people who want single payer and state-funded higher-education? C'mon.

thank you
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 07:38:08 AM
Quote
[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.


people have been self-identifying as alt-right for a while now. It's a specific term those guys chose for themselves that has meaning. "alt-left" started as a smear by centrist democrats against people to the left and now Trump is using it. Also there's no equivalence between white supremacists and what...people who want single payer and state-funded higher-education? C'mon.

Don't simplify it down to where it seems to be a "logical fallacy".   I'm for single-payer for god's sake, and I'm not exactly the poster boy for "alt-Left".    Extremism of all forms embodies the emphasis on the rights of the subject group over the rights of the collective.   The alt-right wants to assert their rights to the detriment of minorities.   You're kidding yourself if you don't believe that the alt-left is doing the exact same thing in a different context.  Your earnings? Fuck that, you have no earnings.  They go to the collective.    Your right to free think?  Fuck that, you have to abide by the agenda of the identity politics du jour.   Your right to the pursuit of happiness?  Fuck that, the state owns your business.     Don't try to convince us with a straight face that no one has ever died as a result of the socialist exertion of power.   
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: antigoon on August 16, 2017, 07:43:24 AM
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/10sXTCdlsdKn8k/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 16, 2017, 07:59:18 AM


Don't simplify it down to where it seems to be a "logical fallacy".

   


Your earnings? Fuck that, you have no earnings.  They go to the collective.    Your right to free think?  Fuck that, you have to abide by the agenda of the identity politics du jour.   Your right to the pursuit of happiness?  Fuck that, the state owns your business.   

If that's your idea of rational discourse,  then you're not much better than what you accuse us of being.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Nekov on August 16, 2017, 08:01:51 AM

Quote
I believe in the power of ideas, I believe in the power of debate, and I believe, ultimately, that racism will be defeated by peaceful means, through every person doing their best each day to live a race-free life.   

That's very nice but how will you do that if you let these kind of people influence others? How is racism going to dissapear when you let people be openly racist and say it's ok because it's their right to be so? And please be honest, do you really think you could sit down with those guys and by the power of your ideas and your debate skills be able to show them that being racist is wrong?

"Let them influence others"?  What, are people hypmotized sheep that can't form a coherent thought for themselves?   Do you honestly think there are millions of people sitting at home saying "you know, honey, I think that guy with the no teeth and the pretty flag has a point.  Kids, whaddya say, want to kill some immigrants next vacation?"    Racism, I believe, WILL disappear if you let those ideas out in the sunlight (I question the use of the word "be"; what does that mean?  I'm not advocating letting them kill minorities or take action that deprives someone else of their rights). 


Actually I do, not millions but surely a couple thousand. And I think you are assuming that because you are able to form coherent thoughts for yourself that everyone else is but that is not the case. Not everyone has had an education where they were taught to think things through with logic. There are people that have grown in places where school is not an option, where the people that surround them are the same people that were participating in that "protest". There are lots of people out there that are prone to being influenced or that just want to be a part of something bigger than themselves and will find exactly that when looking at these people.
And this doesn't just impact people who can't form a thought for themselves, there are lots of people out there that think that same way but are not vocal about it becuase they know that society will condemn them and now they are being invited to be outspoken when it comes to hate. Or even someone might be on the edge, not clearly knowing where to stand and seeing these people and this message might push them to the hate side. Again, the fact that this is not the case for you doesn't mean that those people don't exist.

I don't condone propagating hate speech.  That's not hate speech, though.   You don't like it, it embodies "hate", but it's not "hate speech".   Not my law, not my determination, but the law of the land.   I've already said; I find it abhorrent.  I lost family in a camp in Poland.  I get it

If you find it abhorrent then why do you defend it the way it is right now? I get that free speech is something that is necessary, but don't you think that when it comes to hate and harming of others there should be something there to prevent it? I know it's the law, but the fact that it's a law doesn't make it right. Law is not perfect, there's a reason it's changed all the time.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 08:14:54 AM


Don't simplify it down to where it seems to be a "logical fallacy".

   


Your earnings? Fuck that, you have no earnings.  They go to the collective.    Your right to free think?  Fuck that, you have to abide by the agenda of the identity politics du jour.   Your right to the pursuit of happiness?  Fuck that, the state owns your business.   

If that's your idea of rational discourse,  then you're not much better than what you accuse us of being.

It's not my idea of "rational discourse".   I just wrote two pages of cogent, reasonable (not to say "right") rational discourse.   I use a little hyperbole to reinforce the idea that under a socialist regime it's not a choice, and that the concept of "rights" is a joke to be dismissed by the government, and you're going to call me on that?   

Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: jingle.boy on August 16, 2017, 08:30:47 AM
Until Trump said it yesterday, I'd never heard the term Alt-left.  And the counter-protesters didn't drive a car through a crowd of the "protestors".  However, yes... extremism is bad regardless of the direction it flows to.

I'm scared.  I'm literally scared for the path that North American (because what happens into the US affects Canada a shit-ton) society is on.  There's just too much in some of these posts that I can't believe I'm reading.  Sure, it takes 'two to tango'.  So what... no one should oppose anything?  By that logic, the US is holds culpability in Korea, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, on and on.  Would it have been better just to sit idly by?  It's ok when the US gov't organizes violence and stands up to a differing position, or potential attack on western way of life, but when citizens do it themselves, POTUS has the audacity to call them out as the problem as much the instigators?  Ya know, that rape victim was extremely violent to scratch and claw at the eyes of her attacker.   ::)

As for normalizing, Trump's behaviour has been normalized by his base and Republicans so much that by saying it isn't normalized just proves that it's the new norm.  Anyone who thinks his statements yesterday are anything but abhorrent and reprehensible has accepted this as a new norm.  To so voraciously oppose certain acts of terrorism, but then borderline condone others is mind-boggling; to claim facts were needed before a statement could be issued when that's never been the case before is laughable; to talk about ones own house and winery in the face of these events is mind-boggling.

Hypnotized sheep... no most are not.  But you're kidding yourself if you don't think there is a meaningful number of people that have beliefs leaning towards the extreme right who will surely be influenced by the recent events.  If there was a strong, absolute, and consistent message of opposition of these beliefs, then perhaps they wouldn't be further swayed.

Extreme socialism... sure, those beliefs are and should be concerning.  However, when was the last time a "protest" was staged from that position (in the US) like we saw this weekend?  When was the last time that anyone had REAL concern for their safety and well-being because of extreme socialists?

Stadler... say it all you want, state your family history all you want... I don't believe that you do get it.  If you consider "Jews will not replace us" free speech, that's fucked up.  That is hate speech.  Watch the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIrcB1sAN8I) of the dude with the "Radical Agenda" tee-shirt. 

--> "I don't think that you could feel the way about race that I do and watch that Kushner bastard walk around with that beautiful girl"

Spreading those beliefs constitutes "free speech"?

Sadly, this will change nothing politically.  If Sandy Hook showed anything, it's that nothing changes politically.  My only hope is that we've taught enough morality in younger generations that they can and will raise their voices and drown out the extremism.  But that's going to take a time.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 08:34:51 AM

Quote
I believe in the power of ideas, I believe in the power of debate, and I believe, ultimately, that racism will be defeated by peaceful means, through every person doing their best each day to live a race-free life.   

That's very nice but how will you do that if you let these kind of people influence others? How is racism going to dissapear when you let people be openly racist and say it's ok because it's their right to be so? And please be honest, do you really think you could sit down with those guys and by the power of your ideas and your debate skills be able to show them that being racist is wrong?

"Let them influence others"?  What, are people hypmotized sheep that can't form a coherent thought for themselves?   Do you honestly think there are millions of people sitting at home saying "you know, honey, I think that guy with the no teeth and the pretty flag has a point.  Kids, whaddya say, want to kill some immigrants next vacation?"    Racism, I believe, WILL disappear if you let those ideas out in the sunlight (I question the use of the word "be"; what does that mean?  I'm not advocating letting them kill minorities or take action that deprives someone else of their rights). 


Actually I do, not millions but surely a couple thousand. And I think you are assuming that because you are able to form coherent thoughts for yourself that everyone else is but that is not the case. Not everyone has had an education where they were taught to think things through with logic. There are people that have grown in places where school is not an option, where the people that surround them are the same people that were participating in that "protest". There are lots of people out there that are prone to being influenced or that just want to be a part of something bigger than themselves and will find exactly that when looking at these people.
And this doesn't just impact people who can't form a thought for themselves, there are lots of people out there that think that same way but are not vocal about it becuase they know that society will condemn them and now they are being invited to be outspoken when it comes to hate. Or even someone might be on the edge, not clearly knowing where to stand and seeing these people and this message might push them to the hate side. Again, the fact that this is not the case for you doesn't mean that those people don't exist.

But Nekov, why are we all of a sudden worried about "people" and there ability to make cogent decisions?   Why weren't we worried about that when we're discussing the popular vote in 2016?  Why weren't we worried about that when people were voting for Obama (or Bush, or Clinton, or Bush Sr.)?  I don't at all buy in to that "deplorable" mentality; that some of our population is "deplorable" and we have to save them.  For me, I don't view the racist - who wrongly believes that blacks are inferior (a mistake of fact) - any differently than the person that wrongly believes that taxing the rich is a reasonably, reliable, rational solution to paying for programs we CANNOT afford (also a mistake of fact).  I don't see any difference between the person that wrongly believes that the Jews control "all the money" (a mistake of fact) and the person that wrongly believes that banning guns will reduce violent crime (a mistake of fact).  It's still ignorance. 

Quote
I don't condone propagating hate speech.  That's not hate speech, though.   You don't like it, it embodies "hate", but it's not "hate speech".   Not my law, not my determination, but the law of the land.   I've already said; I find it abhorrent.  I lost family in a camp in Poland.  I get it

If you find it abhorrent then why do you defend it the way it is right now? I get that free speech is something that is necessary, but don't you think that when it comes to hate and harming of others there should be something there to prevent it? I know it's the law, but the fact that it's a law doesn't make it right. Law is not perfect, there's a reason it's changed all the time.

Because the law isn't based on "what Stadler thinks is abhorrent"!  Or any one person.   I'm a pretty open minded guy, but there's a lot sexually I find "abhorrent".   It's not my call what someone does with another consenting human being.  I find abortion "abhorrent", and yet I am adamantly pro-choice.   

Specific point, though:  I separate "hate" and "harming others".   I'm not at all advocating any action that would be a crime under other circumstances.  I don't agree that "offending someone" is necessarily "harm".  I don't have a right to not be "offended".   Someone saying they hate me, because I'm Polish, or Catholic or white, or male... it's offensive, but I am not "harmed".   If I'm beaten because I'm any of those things, then all bets are off, no question.   I'm not advocating violence in any way (and in fact, I would hope you'd get from this exactly the opposite).   
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 16, 2017, 08:38:29 AM
Quote
For me, I don't view the racist - who wrongly believes that blacks are inferior (a mistake of fact) - any differently than the person that wrongly believes that taxing the rich is a reasonably, reliable, rational solution to paying for programs we CANNOT afford (also a mistake of fact).  I don't see any difference between the person that wrongly believes that the Jews control "all the money" (a mistake of fact) and the person that wrongly believes that banning guns will reduce violent crime (a mistake of fact).  It's still ignorance. 

That's... It's like you live on a different planet than I do.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: bosk1 on August 16, 2017, 08:40:33 AM
So you think it's ok for people to propagate hate speech?

I can't speak for Stadler, but I will answer for myself:  Absolutely, unequivocally, YES.  The freedom of speech doesn't exist to protect speech everyone agrees is good and inoffensive.  It exists to protect that speech that offends somebody, even if it offense pretty much EVERYBODY.  I don't like it.  But when we get into the business of censoring one group because we don't like the message, there is nothing to prevent the government from censoring our own message because someone else deems it offensive.  So, yes, I do very much think it is okay for people to propagate "hate speech." 

...but there are others who might think similarly and join the movemet, which again, won't make them go away.

...That's very nice but how will you do that if you let these kind of people influence others? How is racism going to dissapear when you let people be openly racist and say it's ok because it's their right to be so?

But there is NO WAY to make them go away.  Racism and other ugly ideas will ALWAYS exist, and it is naïve to think otherwise.  I'm not saying we throw up our hands and accept it.  Civilized society should NOT accept it.  But the goal isn't and shouldn't be to "make it go away" because that isn't realistic.  The goal should be to dissuade as many people as possible from it to keep it from actually harming (which is not the same thing as "keep it from actually offending) others. 

And a second point, which is similar to the point above about speech in general (in fact, it is actually the same point, but has application here):  Once government or society makes it its business to "make [offensive group X] go away," we have crossed a dangerous line that should never be crossed, because the moment you believe or espouse something that is offensive to someone, they now have the power to make your group "go away."
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cable on August 16, 2017, 08:50:35 AM
Quote
[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.


people have been self-identifying as alt-right for a while now. It's a specific term those guys chose for themselves that has meaning. "alt-left" started as a smear by centrist democrats against people to the left and now Trump is using it. Also there's no equivalence between white supremacists and what...people who want single payer and state-funded higher-education? C'mon.

Don't simplify it down to where it seems to be a "logical fallacy".   I'm for single-payer for god's sake, and I'm not exactly the poster boy for "alt-Left".    Extremism of all forms embodies the emphasis on the rights of the subject group over the rights of the collective.   The alt-right wants to assert their rights to the detriment of minorities.   You're kidding yourself if you don't believe that the alt-left is doing the exact same thing in a different context.  Your earnings? Fuck that, you have no earnings.  They go to the collective.    Your right to free think?  Fuck that, you have to abide by the agenda of the identity politics du jour.   Your right to the pursuit of happiness?  Fuck that, the state owns your business.     Don't try to convince us with a straight face that no one has ever died as a result of the socialist exertion of power.


Communism, in the original form, is a worker-class initiated and driven uprising. This has never happened in "communist" regimes, nor is it likely. Your over-exaggerations as you call them strike a 1984, or McCarthy era fear of what is not true of the original ideology.




Don't simplify it down to where it seems to be a "logical fallacy".

   


Your earnings? Fuck that, you have no earnings.  They go to the collective.    Your right to free think?  Fuck that, you have to abide by the agenda of the identity politics du jour.   Your right to the pursuit of happiness?  Fuck that, the state owns your business.   

If that's your idea of rational discourse,  then you're not much better than what you accuse us of being.

It's not my idea of "rational discourse".   I just wrote two pages of cogent, reasonable (not to say "right") rational discourse.   I use a little hyperbole to reinforce the idea that under a socialist regime it's not a choice, and that the concept of "rights" is a joke to be dismissed by the government, and you're going to call me on that?


Socialism is established in a democratic manner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Which is no different than how our two parties are democratically elected, and then we have no direct say in their actions.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: jingle.boy on August 16, 2017, 08:52:01 AM
So, yes, I do very much think it is okay for people to propagate "hate speech." 

That's fucked up.  Sure, SCOTUS allows it from a legal perspective, but from a moral perspective, that's fucked up.  Would you feel that way if ethnic/hate speech was directed to your family?
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 16, 2017, 08:55:15 AM
(I'm using alt-left moving forward. People here understand my take on these people and I think it's a good description without having to parse every syllable.)

About once a year a topic like this comes up, relating to the suppression of free thought. Make no mistake, that's exactly what we're talking about here. When it does I watch Inherit the Wind. Partly because I'm a big Spencer Tracey fan and partly because it's amazingly topical no matter the era. Everybody should make a point to watch it and determine who they are. I for the life of me can find no difference between the alt-left and the Matthew Bradys of the world. Both so terrified of an idea that they it's mere expression becomes a matter of existential import. I have no doubt that all of these people who feel compelled to go out and confront racist ideology would be the ones cheering on Henry Drummond as he rails against the ignorant ramblings of a devout Christian grandstander, blissfully unaware that they do the same thing, equally convinced of their rightness.

What's the difference between demanding that nobody be allowed to teach evolution and that nobody be allowed to suggest that they're superior to another? Yeah, I know, one's a proven fact and the other mysticism and dogma. Yet to the practitioners of that mysticism it's every bit as real and compelling, is it not? They're wrong because we know they are. And, teaching evolution harms no one and the spreading of hate speech harms the hated. Doesn't the teaching of values that are fundamentally opposed to our own, and threatening to their very soul, harm our own children? Both the alt-left and the Brady's of the world base their arguments on the absolute certainty that they are right and the wrong are dangerous. Brady would no doubt find a reason to distance himself from the racist fucks of the world, just as the intolerant of intolerance gang will find a way to distance themselves from his anti-humanist worldview, but take it from one of the Hornbecks, you're all a bunch of narrow-minded apes.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: bosk1 on August 16, 2017, 08:56:46 AM
So, yes, I do very much think it is okay for people to propagate "hate speech." 

That's fucked up.  Sure, SCOTUS allows it from a legal perspective, but from a moral perspective, that's fucked up.  Would you feel that way if ethnic/hate speech was directed to your family?
That is irrelevant.  Most of what we might deem hate speech is immoral.  That isn't the issue.  The issue is whether they should have the right to say it.  And, yes, I believe they should, whether it is directed at me, my family, or whoever.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 16, 2017, 09:03:33 AM
(I'm using alt-left moving forward. People here understand my take on these people and I think it's a good description without having to parse every syllable.)

About once a year a topic like this comes up, relating to the suppression of free thought. Make no mistake, that's exactly what we're talking about here. When it does I watch Inherit the Wind. Partly because I'm a big Spencer Tracey fan and partly because it's amazingly topical no matter the era. Everybody should make a point to watch it and determine who they are. I for the life of me can find no difference between the alt-left and the Matthew Bradys of the world. Both so terrified of an idea that they it's mere expression becomes a matter of existential import. I have no doubt that all of these people who feel compelled to go out and confront racist ideology would be the ones cheering on Henry Drummond as he rails against the ignorant ramblings of a devout Christian grandstander, blissfully unaware that they do the same thing, equally convinced of their rightness.

What's the difference between demanding that nobody be allowed to teach evolution and that nobody be allowed to suggest that they're superior to another? Yeah, I know, one's a proven fact and the other mysticism and dogma. Yet to the practitioners of that mysticism it's every bit as real and compelling, is it not? They're wrong because we know they are. And, teaching evolution harms no one and the spreading of hate speech harms the hated. Doesn't the teaching of values that are fundamentally opposed to our own, and threatening to their very soul, harm our own children? Both the alt-left and the Brady's of the world base their arguments on the absolute certainty that they are right and the wrong are dangerous. Brady would no doubt find a reason to distance himself from the racist fucks of the world, just as the intolerant of intolerance gang will find a way to distance themselves from his anti-humanist worldview, but take it from one of the Hornbecks, you're all a bunch of narrow-minded apes.

Well then you, Stadler and Bosk are just as extreme in your own way.   Radical centrism or something.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: jingle.boy on August 16, 2017, 09:08:09 AM
So, yes, I do very much think it is okay for people to propagate "hate speech." 

That's fucked up.  Sure, SCOTUS allows it from a legal perspective, but from a moral perspective, that's fucked up.  Would you feel that way if ethnic/hate speech was directed to your family?
That is irrelevant.  Most of what we might deem hate speech is immoral.  That isn't the issue.  The issue is whether they should have the right to say it.  And, yes, I believe they should, whether it is directed at me, my family, or whoever.

I'll chalk that response up to the (US) lawyer in you.  Hate speech is a crime in Canada - and many other countries. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: MoraWintersoul on August 16, 2017, 09:10:18 AM
The issue is whether they should have the right to say it.  And, yes, I believe they should, whether it is directed at me, my family, or whoever.
As a person from Europe, this sounds a bit crazy. I get you holding this view in its logical consistency, but for people who actually identify as Nazis and have the exact same ideas, I don't think it should be allowed.

Again, I do get why you would feel that way. This is just my pet theory, but I have a feeling that Americans don't have a lot of "baggage" from WW2, in a sense that you did take the blow and bombings and spend your money and invent tech and invest men's lives in the positive outcome, but you're not intimately familiar with Nazis and their adjacents just rampaging through your country, on foot, by plane, ravaging everything, leaving you to starve and rebuild from the literal ashes. Like, I have living grandparents with intimate memories of all that shit who were almost under line of fire several times, and that's just the women. I have late grandpas who were POW's and only survivors of minor battles. When you have something like that just a generation away, it's hard to say "yes, but free speech applies even to Nazis", it just sounds like a big no-no.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: bosk1 on August 16, 2017, 09:16:11 AM
Sure, it's a lot easer for me as an American in 2017 to distance myself from that.  But I still maintain that that isn't the issue.  The conduct you are talking about is clearly wrong and harmful, and should at every cost be prohibited.  But that is different from the idea and speech. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Chino on August 16, 2017, 09:17:08 AM
Quote
[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.


people have been self-identifying as alt-right for a while now. It's a specific term those guys chose for themselves that has meaning. "alt-left" started as a smear by centrist democrats against people to the left and now Trump is using it. Also there's no equivocation between white supremacists and what...people who want single payer and state-funded higher-education? C'mon.

thank you

I didn't realize that "single payer" and "state-funded higher-education" were considered to be the values of those on the extreme left. C'mon guys. I hate Trump just as much as you, but it's clear as day that the "alt-left" he's referring to are the ones who, under the guise of protesting, are destroying property, beating people on the right, tearing down statues and monuments, and pepper spraying old ladies who support Trump.

The people who want single payer are not the "alt-left". The people who do this are.

(https://www.rawstory.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Cole-Bartiromo-OC-Weekly-800x430.png)
(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-bxVEyr3PWTQ/WMGj6FzZMOI/AAAAAAAAA9Q/6Ts_b0Zyh-UyQHouyx4pCrh_XquaoutSwCLcB/s1600/17156028_1365355963538599_6761971928167359964_n.jpg)
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/i7VG919ttTA/hqdefault.jpg)
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/04/20/34EC4EDE00000578-0-image-a-165_1465067596934.jpg)
(https://cdn-images-1.medium.com/max/1600/1*Jju4JWzho3sbIJ2OdJTWxw.png)

Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 16, 2017, 09:18:45 AM
The issue is whether they should have the right to say it.  And, yes, I believe they should, whether it is directed at me, my family, or whoever.
As a person from Europe, this sounds a bit crazy. I get you holding this view in its logical consistency, but for people who actually identify as Nazis and have the exact same ideas, I don't think it should be allowed.

Again, I do get why you would feel that way. This is just my pet theory, but I have a feeling that Americans don't have a lot of "baggage" from WW2, in a sense that you did take the blow and bombings and spend your money and invent tech and invest men's lives in the positive outcome, but you're not intimately familiar with Nazis and their adjacents just rampaging through your country, on foot, by plane, ravaging everything, leaving you to starve and rebuild from the literal ashes. Like, I have living grandparents with intimate memories of all that shit who were almost under line of fire several times, and that's just the women. I have late grandpas who were POW's and only survivors of minor battles. When you have something like that just a generation away, it's hard to say "yes, but free speech applies even to Nazis", it just sounds like a big no-no.
My experience in talking with Europeans is that they simply don't understand our distrust of government. Perfectly understandable. We don't want the government in a position to determine what is a good or bad idea, and have codified that at the most fundamental level. By extension, we also don't trust the morally superior to act as an intermediary to do what we prohibit the government from doing. Alas, the morally superior rarely recognize the flaw.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 16, 2017, 09:25:02 AM
Chino I don't condone those actions,  but those aren't a self-identified movement in the same way the alt-right is.     That's what it means when people say the "alt-left" isn't a thing. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: bosk1 on August 16, 2017, 09:26:02 AM
The issue is whether they should have the right to say it.  And, yes, I believe they should, whether it is directed at me, my family, or whoever.
As a person from Europe, this sounds a bit crazy. I get you holding this view in its logical consistency, but for people who actually identify as Nazis and have the exact same ideas, I don't think it should be allowed.

Again, I do get why you would feel that way. This is just my pet theory, but I have a feeling that Americans don't have a lot of "baggage" from WW2, in a sense that you did take the blow and bombings and spend your money and invent tech and invest men's lives in the positive outcome, but you're not intimately familiar with Nazis and their adjacents just rampaging through your country, on foot, by plane, ravaging everything, leaving you to starve and rebuild from the literal ashes. Like, I have living grandparents with intimate memories of all that shit who were almost under line of fire several times, and that's just the women. I have late grandpas who were POW's and only survivors of minor battles. When you have something like that just a generation away, it's hard to say "yes, but free speech applies even to Nazis", it just sounds like a big no-no.
My experience in talking with Europeans is that they simply don't understand our distrust of government. Perfectly understandable. We don't want the government in a position to determine what is a good or bad idea, and have codified that at the most fundamental level. By extension, we also don't trust the morally superior to act as an intermediary to do what we prohibit the government from doing. Alas, the morally superior rarely recognize the flaw.

That sums it up better than I could have.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Chino on August 16, 2017, 09:32:27 AM
Chino I don't condone those actions,  but those aren't a self-identified movement in the same way the alt-right is.     That's what it means when people say the "alt-left" isn't a thing.

Like it or not, it is now. The origins of words mean nothing over time. "Faggot" was originally a term for a bundle of sticks, now it's a word for people to hurt homosexuals with, or for Milo Yiannopoulos to describe himself. I never self-identified myself as a Millennial, but at some point someone came up with a date range and now I'm referred to as one.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 09:43:29 AM
Quote
[Serious] Why not? We use alt-right to describe people on the right that go to the extremes, what makes you think similar people don't exist on the left? I keep hearing "trump just made that phrase up. It's not real". Well, I never heard "alt-right" until kind of recently. Someone had to just make that up at some point, yet it's considered real.


people have been self-identifying as alt-right for a while now. It's a specific term those guys chose for themselves that has meaning. "alt-left" started as a smear by centrist democrats against people to the left and now Trump is using it. Also there's no equivalence between white supremacists and what...people who want single payer and state-funded higher-education? C'mon.

Don't simplify it down to where it seems to be a "logical fallacy".   I'm for single-payer for god's sake, and I'm not exactly the poster boy for "alt-Left".    Extremism of all forms embodies the emphasis on the rights of the subject group over the rights of the collective.   The alt-right wants to assert their rights to the detriment of minorities.   You're kidding yourself if you don't believe that the alt-left is doing the exact same thing in a different context.  Your earnings? Fuck that, you have no earnings.  They go to the collective.    Your right to free think?  Fuck that, you have to abide by the agenda of the identity politics du jour.   Your right to the pursuit of happiness?  Fuck that, the state owns your business.     Don't try to convince us with a straight face that no one has ever died as a result of the socialist exertion of power.


Communism, in the original form, is a worker-class initiated and driven uprising. This has never happened in "communist" regimes, nor is it likely. Your over-exaggerations as you call them strike a 1984, or McCarthy era fear of what is not true of the original ideology.

I wouldn't put "communism" as the same as "alt-left".   So I'm not sure what we're arguing here.  I'm not a McCarthy-ist in any sense of the word.  I don't agree with communism, but I don't consider it an extremist form of government. 


Quote


Don't simplify it down to where it seems to be a "logical fallacy".

   


Your earnings? Fuck that, you have no earnings.  They go to the collective.    Your right to free think?  Fuck that, you have to abide by the agenda of the identity politics du jour.   Your right to the pursuit of happiness?  Fuck that, the state owns your business.   

If that's your idea of rational discourse,  then you're not much better than what you accuse us of being.

It's not my idea of "rational discourse".   I just wrote two pages of cogent, reasonable (not to say "right") rational discourse.   I use a little hyperbole to reinforce the idea that under a socialist regime it's not a choice, and that the concept of "rights" is a joke to be dismissed by the government, and you're going to call me on that?


Socialism is established in a democratic manner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Which is no different than how our two parties are democratically elected, and then we have no direct say in their actions.

In some cases; if a people opt for that form of government, then I have no objection to it.  Stalin didn't have to kill 20 million political dissidents because the people opted for that form of government freely.   There were not barriers because it was a form of "democracy".  People weren't shot in the "No Man's Land" of Check Point Charlie because they were there of their free will. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 10:02:37 AM
Until Trump said it yesterday, I'd never heard the term Alt-left.  And the counter-protesters didn't drive a car through a crowd of the "protestors".  However, yes... extremism is bad regardless of the direction it flows to.

I'm scared.  I'm literally scared for the path that North American (because what happens into the US affects Canada a shit-ton) society is on.  There's just too much in some of these posts that I can't believe I'm reading.  Sure, it takes 'two to tango'.  So what... no one should oppose anything?  By that logic, the US is holds culpability in Korea, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, on and on.  Would it have been better just to sit idly by?  It's ok when the US gov't organizes violence and stands up to a differing position, or potential attack on western way of life, but when citizens do it themselves, POTUS has the audacity to call them out as the problem as much the instigators?  Ya know, that rape victim was extremely violent to scratch and claw at the eyes of her attacker.   ::)

I wrote a long post and lost it.  Karma?

Look, don't conflate action with ideas, and don't conflate government interaction for personal accountability.   I'm not at all saying that the girl being attacked can't fight back.  I'm saying that if someone says to her "I'd love to fuck you" she can't resort to clawing their eyes out. 

He called out VIOLENCE.  I think we both agree that violence is bad?   I think you're more upset that he didn't rationalize and reinforce your views on race, and frankly, I have no problem with that. 

Quote
As for normalizing, Trump's behaviour has been normalized by his base and Republicans so much that by saying it isn't normalized just proves that it's the new norm.  Anyone who thinks his statements yesterday are anything but abhorrent and reprehensible has accepted this as a new norm.  To so voraciously oppose certain acts of terrorism, but then borderline condone others is mind-boggling; to claim facts were needed before a statement could be issued when that's never been the case before is laughable; to talk about ones own house and winery in the face of these events is mind-boggling.

What's mindboggling is how much the PC mentality has been "Normalized".   God I hate that word; it's nothing more than another rationalization for why people think differently than you do.   "If they won't accept my logic, then I attack the core of the system that allows their belief".    Please.   The only think "normalized" by trump is that he is the inevitable conclusion of 25 years of progression (pun very much intended) towards this idea that "opinions matter!" and "as long as I think it, it MUST be right!" that has characterized the emphasis on identity politics (and thus the PC movement) over the last decade.   Trump is President not because of "racists", or the "deplorables"; he is President because a significant number of people decided that identity politics are important, but they do not act as a Silver Bullet negating any other discourse, or idea, or point of view.   I've seen numbers as high as 15 million, the NY Times says 9.2 million, OBAMA VOTERS who voted for Trump.  Do you honestly think that these people woke up one day and just decided to be "racist" or "deplorable"?   Of course not. 

Quote
Hypnotized sheep... no most are not.  But you're kidding yourself if you don't think there is a meaningful number of people that have beliefs leaning towards the extreme right who will surely be influenced by the recent events.  If there was a strong, absolute, and consistent message of opposition of these beliefs, then perhaps they wouldn't be further swayed.

Why then ignore all those that are swayed the other way?  You think human nature is a one-way street?   Personally, I think the odds are pretty strong that for every person swayed to the "Dark Side", there's at least two swayed back.    Hell, I think I cited here, that the other "big name" in white supremacist politics - Don Black - just had his son come out and denounce the entire movement.  If that guy can be turned, all hope is not lost.

There is ALWAYS going to be that faction of people - either through mental defect or social conditioning, or simple sociopathy - that are going to take contrarian positions.   The idea that it can - or even should - be "stamped out" is naïve, and equally dangerous (Bosk already told us why). 

Quote
Extreme socialism... sure, those beliefs are and should be concerning.  However, when was the last time a "protest" was staged from that position (in the US) like we saw this weekend?  When was the last time that anyone had REAL concern for their safety and well-being because of extreme socialists?

Stalin, anyone?  20 million a big enough number?    How about the violence from the "RESIST!" movements immediately following the election.   See also Chino's post.

Quote
Stadler... say it all you want, state your family history all you want... I don't believe that you do get it.  If you consider "Jews will not replace us" free speech, that's fucked up.  That is hate speech.  Watch the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIrcB1sAN8I) of the dude with the "Radical Agenda" tee-shirt. 

--> "I don't think that you could feel the way about race that I do and watch that Kushner bastard walk around with that beautiful girl"

Spreading those beliefs constitutes "free speech"?

Of courses it does.  Other than it is factually incorrect (and simple math can tell you that) why wouldn't that be "free speech"?  Because we disagree with it?  I disagree with 95% of what Bernie Sanders says, and half of it is provably, factually incorrect, and yet...

Quote
Sadly, this will change nothing politically.  If Sandy Hook showed anything, it's that nothing changes politically.  My only hope is that we've taught enough morality in younger generations that they can and will raise their voices and drown out the extremism.  But that's going to take a time.

What would you expect to change?   Get a president you like?   God forbid.  :)    Shut down ideas you don't like?  Let me know when I can do that, because I have a long list.   Look; Trump is the inevitable conclusion (and actually not even that; I dread the next President, frankly) of 25 years of movement in this direction. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: antigoon on August 16, 2017, 10:09:03 AM
Fox News's live coverage didn't even try to spin that press conference yesterday

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/foxs-kat-timpf-goes-off-on-trump-presser-im-wondering-if-it-was-actually-real-life/
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 10:09:26 AM
So, yes, I do very much think it is okay for people to propagate "hate speech." 

That's fucked up.  Sure, SCOTUS allows it from a legal perspective, but from a moral perspective, that's fucked up.  Would you feel that way if ethnic/hate speech was directed to your family?
That is irrelevant.  Most of what we might deem hate speech is immoral.  That isn't the issue.  The issue is whether they should have the right to say it.  And, yes, I believe they should, whether it is directed at me, my family, or whoever.

I'll chalk that response up to the (US) lawyer in you.  Hate speech is a crime in Canada - and many other countries.

Hate speech is (or can be) a crime here, too.  The difference is what YOU think should be "hate speech" and what actually IS "hate speech".   "Hate speech" isn't defined by whether it is "offensive" or not.  There is no "hate speech" exception to free speech.    The Supreme court has held, THIS YEAR, that "Speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful; but the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express “the thought that we hate.” United States v. Schwimmer, 279 U. S. 644, 655 (1929) (Holmes, J., dissenting).   Justice Kennedy wrote, in that same opinion (written by Alito): "A law that can be directed against speech found offensive to some portion of the public can be turned against minority and dissenting views to the detriment of all. The First Amendment does not entrust that power to the government’s benevolence. Instead, our reliance must be on the substantial safeguards of free and open discussion in a democratic society."


Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Tick on August 16, 2017, 10:12:24 AM
 I sometimes cringe at some of the things Trump says but...

Trump said both sides are wrong and the media is killing him for saying it. Reality is, you are not justified to respond with violence because you are responding to hate groups. That's not acceptable. Would I get in someones face? Maybe, but it wouldn't make me right for doing so.

Its up to law enforcement to handle it, not a vigilante mob. You have to address the fact that no violence is ok. You don't you send the message its ok to respond with violence as long as your on the right side. No.

Now saying both sides have some really great people is just a moronic thing to say.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 10:31:47 AM
Trump said both sides are wrong and the media is killing him for saying it. Reality is, you are not justified to respond with violence because you are responding to hate groups. That's not acceptable. Would I get in someones face? Maybe, but it wouldn't make me right for doing so.

Its up to law enforcement to handle it, not a vigilante mob. You have to address the fact that no violence is ok. You don't you send the message its ok to respond with violence as long as your on the right side. No.

But those things are the ESSENCE of the "intolerance of intolerance" ideal.    People DO actually believe it's justified, if not absolutely NECESSARY. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Nekov on August 16, 2017, 10:35:20 AM
So you think it's ok for people to propagate hate speech?

I can't speak for Stadler, but I will answer for myself:  Absolutely, unequivocally, YES.  The freedom of speech doesn't exist to protect speech everyone agrees is good and inoffensive.  It exists to protect that speech that offends somebody, even if it offense pretty much EVERYBODY.  I don't like it.  But when we get into the business of censoring one group because we don't like the message, there is nothing to prevent the government from censoring our own message because someone else deems it offensive.  So, yes, I do very much think it is okay for people to propagate "hate speech." 

So, you're saying that if I stand in the middle of times square with a megaphone and start saying that I support ISIS and what they are doing, and not only them but other terrorist groups and say people should join that support that it would be OK? Becuase I'm pretty sure that I would end up in jail for supporting terrorists even though I actually haven't commited an act of terror.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: antigoon on August 16, 2017, 10:38:44 AM
I think there's always going to be a fundamental disconnect between how Americans and the rest of the world view speech rights.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 16, 2017, 10:39:49 AM

You don't you send the message its ok to respond with violence as long as your on the right side. No.

Except that's not what anybody (in my opinion) wants a POTUS to say.  That's slightly misrepresenting the point (again, imo)   "Nazis are bad"  I mean that should've been a gimme,  the easiest pitch to hit but he still bungled it. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Tick on August 16, 2017, 11:05:44 AM

You don't you send the message its ok to respond with violence as long as your on the right side. No.

Except that's not what anybody (in my opinion) wants a POTUS to say.  That's slightly misrepresenting the point (again, imo)   "Nazis are bad"  I mean that should've been a gimme,  the easiest pitch to hit but he still bungled it.
My point is he said both sides are wrong, and they are. Period. He is getting ripped for saying that and that makes no sense to me.

"Nazis are bad"
"Black Lives Matter" are bad.

Hate groups are bad, plain and simple.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Implode on August 16, 2017, 11:06:54 AM
...implying BLM is a hate group?  :huh:

Like sure, you could make an argument that they are misguided or wrong in methods or mindsets. I wouldn't agree, but they aren't a hate group.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Tick on August 16, 2017, 11:09:19 AM
...implying BLM is a hate group?  :huh:
Absafuckinglutely they are!
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: antigoon on August 16, 2017, 11:10:42 AM
sure, genocide is bad but have you considered that demanding police not wantonly kill black people is also bad
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 16, 2017, 11:14:59 AM
...implying BLM is a hate group?  :huh:
Absafuckinglutely they are!

Yeah, no.   I mean what kind of discussion are we supposed to have if that's the starting point.   I have to agree with you just to start having it, that doesn't work.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Chino on August 16, 2017, 11:18:28 AM
A lot of people (not specifically saying Tick) associate this behavior with the BLM movement.

(https://gdb.rferl.org/A8B4CE2F-2009-4E78-812F-C373CBACF59A_w1023_r1_s.jpg)
(https://thehornnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/blm-800x480.jpg)

Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Implode on August 16, 2017, 11:23:49 AM
Setting aside what is considered "true BLM," vandalism, rioting, and looting still doesn't equal a hate group.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Chino on August 16, 2017, 11:27:34 AM
Setting aside what is considered "true BLM," vandalism, rioting, and looting still doesn't equal a hate group.

The narrative is that they hate cops and white people.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 16, 2017, 11:29:58 AM
Setting aside what is considered "true BLM," vandalism, rioting, and looting still doesn't equal a hate group.

The narrative is that they hate cops and white people.

no that's a misrepresentation
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 16, 2017, 11:45:13 AM
Well this thread certainly was busy while I slept. God damn.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Tick on August 16, 2017, 11:50:11 AM
I'm not drawing comparisons between hate groups. Nazis, and the KKK are hate groups.
Black Lives Matter is surely not a group filled with compassion and love. Its an angry group with an angry demeanor attacking issues with outrage and anger. If anyone sees it differently, that's your deal. I call them a hate group cause there ain't an ounce of love.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 16, 2017, 11:54:49 AM
I'm not drawing comparisons between hate groups. Nazis, and the KKK are hate groups.
Black Lives Matter is surely not a group filled with compassion and love. Its an angry group with an angry demeanor attacking issues with outrage and anger. If anyone sees it differently, that's your deal. I call them a hate group cause there ain't an ounce of love.

I'd say those are extreme members of those groups. I know people who support BLM (being in LA, it's not hard to find) and none of them hate anyone or anything other than racism.

Nazis and KKK are literally founded on hating specific groups of people. It's not like just the extreme KKK and Nazi people hate others.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: jingle.boy on August 16, 2017, 11:55:59 AM
Stadler... I no longer can be bothered to address most of your comments.  As I said, neither of us is ever going to convince each other of their perspective - which, btw, I don't believe I've ever said you're wrong for having it.. though you constantly criticize how I frame my positions/statements/arguments.  I will address this however ...

Look, don't conflate action with ideas, and don't conflate government interaction for personal accountability.   I'm not at all saying that the girl being attacked can't fight back.  I'm saying that if someone says to her "I'd love to fuck you" she can't resort to clawing their eyes out. 

But if a guy is following a woman at night in Central Park, yelling at her that he's gonna rip her dress off, and beat the shit out of her, and rape her, and comes close enough to grab her, then what?  She's just supposed to do nothing and wait until the action happens?

Ideas lead to actions.  People standing up to horrific and hateful ideas/intentions is not to be lumped in with those spreading and conducting the hateful ideas/intentions.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 16, 2017, 12:00:42 PM

Black Lives Matter is surely not a group filled with compassion and love. Its an angry group with an angry demeanor attacking issues with outrage and anger. If anyone sees it differently, that's your deal. I call them a hate group cause there ain't an ounce of love.

(https://i2.cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/assets/160718121436-restricted-baton-rouge-protester-ieshia-evans-exlarge-169.jpg)
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: bosk1 on August 16, 2017, 12:03:56 PM
Look, don't conflate action with ideas, and don't conflate government interaction for personal accountability.   I'm not at all saying that the girl being attacked can't fight back.  I'm saying that if someone says to her "I'd love to fuck you" she can't resort to clawing their eyes out. 

But if a guy is following a woman at night in Central Park, yelling at her that he's gonna rip her dress off, and beat the shit out of her, and rape her, and comes close enough to grab her, then what?  She's just supposed to do nothing and wait until the action happens?

Ideas lead to actions.  People standing up to horrific and hateful ideas/intentions is not to be lumped in with those spreading and conducting the hateful ideas/intentions.

Okay, but the guy in your scenario has committed assault.  He has acted and gone beyond the mere idea phase.  The following, the coming close enough to grab her, and the "I'm gonna..." take it beyond just speech and ideas.  That isn't what we are talking about.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Chino on August 16, 2017, 12:12:21 PM
I'm not drawing comparisons between hate groups. Nazis, and the KKK are hate groups.
Black Lives Matter is surely not a group filled with compassion and love. Its an angry group with an angry demeanor attacking issues with outrage and anger. If anyone sees it differently, that's your deal. I call them a hate group cause there ain't an ounce of love.

C'mon man. You're so much smarter than that. Hell, there was a 500 something person demonstration in Hartford last year that was completely peaceful and was done with permits and everything. You're taking the actions of a very small percentage and applying it to an entire movement. It's akin to blanketly labelling the entire religion of catholicism based on the actions of the Westboro Baptist Douchebags.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: lonestar on August 16, 2017, 12:15:42 PM
For anyone who watched the Vice piece, seems the meth finally wore off...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyeTj002DCo&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyeTj002DCo&feature=youtu.be)


The hypocrisy is beyond astounding, especially the whole "I am armed, but I don't want violence. I'm afraid you're going to shoot me...".... so pretty much what every black person has to deal with when pulled over...
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 12:20:18 PM
So you think it's ok for people to propagate hate speech?

I can't speak for Stadler, but I will answer for myself:  Absolutely, unequivocally, YES.  The freedom of speech doesn't exist to protect speech everyone agrees is good and inoffensive.  It exists to protect that speech that offends somebody, even if it offense pretty much EVERYBODY.  I don't like it.  But when we get into the business of censoring one group because we don't like the message, there is nothing to prevent the government from censoring our own message because someone else deems it offensive.  So, yes, I do very much think it is okay for people to propagate "hate speech." 

So, you're saying that if I stand in the middle of times square with a megaphone and start saying that I support ISIS and what they are doing, and not only them but other terrorist groups and say people should join that support that it would be OK? Becuase I'm pretty sure that I would end up in jail for supporting terrorists even though I actually haven't commited an act of terror.

Yeah, it IS ok.   Why not?  If you believe so strongly that it's wrong to join ISIS, then don't.   If the argument against ISIS is so good (it is) and if it's so obvious as people like Jingle and XeRocks81 say it is, there should be no problem.  Few if any will actually sign up.  If you feel THAT strongly that you have to ACT, then set up a booth on the opposite corner (get your permits!) with your own megaphone and solicit people to join your ANTI-ISIS group.  See who gets more signatures (I have no doubt that you will, and again, rightfully so).   
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 12:22:14 PM
sure, genocide is bad but have you considered that demanding police not wantonly kill black people is also bad

Again with the framing to suit your argument.  Okay.  I wish the world were that simple and cut and dry.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 16, 2017, 12:23:13 PM
Nazis stand for racial superiority and strengthening Germany.

I have a feeling Germany isn't too high on their list anymore.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 12:24:34 PM
Setting aside what is considered "true BLM," vandalism, rioting, and looting still doesn't equal a hate group.

It doesn't, but arguably it's worse, because that IS action that hurts people.  That IS harmful.  That's the differentiator that many miss.    I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't condone ANY of the ACTIONS that these hate groups profess to want to take, just their right to have the ideas. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: antigoon on August 16, 2017, 12:26:12 PM
sure, genocide is bad but have you considered that demanding police not wantonly kill black people is also bad

Again with the framing to suit your argument.  Okay.  I wish the world were that simple and cut and dry.

I, too, wish the rest of life and the world was as simple and cut and dry as distinguishing between nazis and and people who want black folks to be treated more fairly by law enforcement.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: lonestar on August 16, 2017, 12:28:44 PM
Stadler, I just noticed that Illinois adopted an ordinance to urge the labeling white supremacist groups as terrorist organizations. By this designation, do they lose some of their constitutional rights?
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 12:36:36 PM
Stadler... I no longer can be bothered to address most of your comments.  As I said, neither of us is ever going to convince each other of their perspective - which, btw, I don't believe I've ever said you're wrong for having it.. though you constantly criticize how I frame my positions/statements/arguments.  I will address this however ...

You "can't be bothered"?  Sanctimony is so unbecoming.  Please.   And you're trying to convince us you're fair and you've considered all sides?   

Quote
Look, don't conflate action with ideas, and don't conflate government interaction for personal accountability.   I'm not at all saying that the girl being attacked can't fight back.  I'm saying that if someone says to her "I'd love to fuck you" she can't resort to clawing their eyes out. 

But if a guy is following a woman at night in Central Park, yelling at her that he's gonna rip her dress off, and beat the shit out of her, and rape her, and comes close enough to grab her, then what?  She's just supposed to do nothing and wait until the action happens?

Ideas lead to actions.  People standing up to horrific and hateful ideas/intentions is not to be lumped in with those spreading and conducting the hateful ideas/intentions.

Ugh, this is complicated and is considered under the law.   Yes, that woman CAN under certain circumstances fight back, but it's not because of the "hate speech" aspect of it.  It's because the totality of the circumstances are such that she might reasonably feel her person is in imminent danger.    That has little to do with the ACTUAL speech, and those same words, on a billboard, or in some other context, might not elicit the same reaction.  Similar to the scenario that the police often find themselves in.   If I'm in the police station, and the officer asks for my address or whatever (something benign, and not germaine to any crime) and I reach in my pocket to pull out my wallet, I'm likely not to be shot and if I am the cop doesn't have a great excuse.  But if he is standing in front of me, weapon drawn, and I'm standing over an unconscious body, and he says "HANDS IN THE AIR!" and I reach into my pocket, I'm taking a bullet, believe you me, and I don't have a legal argument in the world that can help me.   

You don't get to proximate a picture of some old smelly fuck giving a Hitler salute to someone in their bedroom in their slippers feeling "in imminent danger" because they happen to be minority or jewish or muslim or whatever. 

And again, stop with the blurring of lines; I'm not at all saying don't stand up to people.  It depends what you mean by "stand up".   That can't include:
- preventing them from speaking to begin with;
- physically harming them while they speak;
- killing them for their ideas
It can AND SHOULD include:
- understanding the difference between words and actions;
- having your own rally to show an alternate point of view;
- teaching your children how to live with love not hate;
- giving your business to companies that espouse those principles that you hold dear;
- understanding the root of this anger and why it might manifest;
- DON'T exacerbate the circumstances by amplifying these messages and giving them purchase;
- (not individual, but for the collective) aggressively prosecute those ACTIONS that cross the line

I'm sure there are others.   
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 12:43:57 PM
Stadler, I just noticed that Illinois adopted an ordinance to urge the labeling white supremacist groups as terrorist organizations. By this designation, do they lose some of their constitutional rights?

Depends; it's too broad a question, but on the whole, probably not.  They would still have their right to free speech, they would still have their right to due process and counsel, to the extend that those rights haven't been abridged by acts like The Patriot Act.    This isn't a free speech issue, though, and goes more to past history of actions, than anything else.

I would be interested in the discussion as to the labeling itself, though.   Constitutionally, if it's just because of their ideas, that ordinance probably doesn't pass muster.   If I'm not mistaken, Illinois tried passing a hate speech law that would have basically codified those things that people like Jingle have been espousing, and it was summarily shot down as unconstitutional, for many of the reasons that I have articulated here.   
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: lonestar on August 16, 2017, 12:56:26 PM
Stadler, I just noticed that Illinois adopted an ordinance to urge the labeling white supremacist groups as terrorist organizations. By this designation, do they lose some of their constitutional rights?

Depends; it's too broad a question, but on the whole, probably not.  They would still have their right to free speech, they would still have their right to due process and counsel, to the extend that those rights haven't been abridged by acts like The Patriot Act.    This isn't a free speech issue, though, and goes more to past history of actions, than anything else.

I would be interested in the discussion as to the labeling itself, though.   Constitutionally, if it's just because of their ideas, that ordinance probably doesn't pass muster.   If I'm not mistaken, Illinois tried passing a hate speech law that would have basically codified those things that people like Jingle have been espousing, and it was summarily shot down as unconstitutional, for many of the reasons that I have articulated here.

Gotcha.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 16, 2017, 01:05:17 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/news/nazi-charlottesville-wearing-82nd-airborne-101611758.html

This is the kind of thing that brings a tear to my eye (sincerely).

"Our WWII Airborne forefathers jumped into Europe to defeat Nazism. We know who we are. We know our legacy."
and
"Anyone can purchase that hat. Valor is earned."

That guy Andy French is sort of a tool, but the response was classic.   No hate.  No trampling of any rights.  No judgment.  Just fact.   
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: jingle.boy on August 16, 2017, 01:27:44 PM
But if a guy is following a woman at night in Central Park, yelling at her that he's gonna rip her dress off, and beat the shit out of her, and rape her, and comes close enough to grab her, then what?  She's just supposed to do nothing and wait until the action happens?

Ideas lead to actions.  People standing up to horrific and hateful ideas/intentions is not to be lumped in with those spreading and conducting the hateful ideas/intentions.

Okay, but the guy in your scenario has committed assault.  He has acted and gone beyond the mere idea phase.  The following, the coming close enough to grab her, and the "I'm gonna..." take it beyond just speech and ideas.  That isn't what we are talking about.

I'm guessing everyone would believe that James Fields took things beyond speech and ideas.

I specifically tried to paint an example where the man DIDN'T commit any assault, but guess I wasn't clear enough.  When people (individuals, groups, or communities) feel extremely threatened, at what point is it ok to act?  Example - a police officer has a gun pointed at him/her.  The person hasn't fired, but the cop should only take action when violence is ACTUALLY committed, not the strong likelihood of violence?

I simply don't believe that responses to horrific ideas/intentions are the problem.  And no one drove a car into the protesters.  If they had, I'd be just as on board with how unacceptable that would have been.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 16, 2017, 01:46:32 PM
@Jingle: It's actually somewhat simple, even if vague in practice. If you feel threatened then by all means start whipping some ass. The catch is that you damn sure better be right. If it turns out the guy was just wanting to hand the girl a flower and she maced him she might face some consequences down the line. Like many things it comes down to a matter of reasonableness as judged by 12 of your peers after the fact.

And of course this doesn't apply to the police, as discussed in another thread.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 16, 2017, 01:53:14 PM
@Tick: I happen to agree with Trump's remarks about the cause being multi-faceted. The problem is that Trump, having absolutely no clue whatsoever how to actually be a president, said something that didn't need to be said. It'd be like Reagan announcing in 1986 "eh, those guys new space flight was dangerous. You play the game, you takes your chances. Hey, Rawhide's fixing to come on!" I understand that there are a lot of people who like Grabby specifically because he's not the slightest bit presidential. I disagree, but I recognize how that might appeal to some. But the consequence is that he's judged by people who've lived their entire lives seeing presidents who knew how to talk to people. He's not going to come away looking good. If he had a clue, Trump could have denounced neo-nazi shitheads, and then gradually over time pointed out the assholery of the other side. That's how a sensible person would have done it. Immediately casting blame on the side of the dead girl did no good and undermined the more important message. Right or not he deserves what he gets, and it's not at all unexpected; nor should it be.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: axeman90210 on August 16, 2017, 03:21:59 PM
Damn, you guys have been busy since yesterday.

This logic of "Trump has to disavow" is ridiculous, I'm sorry.   Jodie Foster is not at all accountable when John Hinkley cites her as a rationale for his evil deeds.   

I don't think you can compare the two because while nobody would argue that Jodie Foster actually did anything to encourage John Hinckley, I think it's very easy to argue that Donald Trump, in words and actions, has at times encouraged white supremacists right from the start of his campaign (that old "Mexicans are rapists" gem).
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 16, 2017, 03:28:14 PM
I think one of the main complaints about Trump's remarks isn't that he said that it takes two to tango or whatever. I think we can all agree on this.

I think it's that he quickly brushed aside any talk of white supremacists or Nazis or anything, and almost exclusively focused on the left. So even though a member of the white nationalists group drove into a crowd and killed someone, his main focus was shifting the blame to the counter protesters. It is technically true? Sure. However, his focus, wording, demeanor, and so forth are all very important and can't all be completely ignored because technically the underlying point has some merit.

Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 16, 2017, 06:08:20 PM
picking up the thread about "Alt-Left"   this is a pretty good rundown of why that's not a thing https://www.wired.com/story/what-is-alt-left/

Quote
Ultimately, the intent seems to be to frame alt-left as the opposite of alt-right and create a false equivalence between groups on the far ends of the right and left. But here's the thing: No left-wing group has ever called itself the alt-left. And the groups smeared by the alt-left label don't include anything like the heinousness of overt white supremacism that has increasingly defined the alt-right.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 16, 2017, 07:52:10 PM
I'm a bit concerned that a man rammed his car into a crowd of people, causing at least one death, and instead the conversation is about how horrible the people who got run over were.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 16, 2017, 08:30:32 PM
I'm a bit concerned that a man rammed his car into a crowd of people, causing at least one death, and instead the conversation is about how horrible the people who got run over were.
Who's done that? Not talking about people commenting on FOX articles, but real people. Who should I be looking up here?
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 16, 2017, 08:31:41 PM
I'm a bit concerned that a man rammed his car into a crowd of people, causing at least one death, and instead the conversation is about how horrible the people who got run over were.
Who's done that? Not talking about people commenting on FOX articles, but real people. Who should I be looking up here?

This message board? Compare the amount of talk on the two aspects.

Also random message boards. Also President Trump.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: PowerSlave on August 16, 2017, 08:42:29 PM
I realize that the conversation has steered far away from this, but I found this yahoo news article about Lee's feeling towards confederate monuments. It's yahoo news, so it's liable to be flimsy reporting at best, but I'm curious if anyone can confirm the story? Could be interesting to the debate if it's true...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/robert-e-lee-thought-confederate-220734970.html

Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 16, 2017, 09:05:50 PM
I'm a bit concerned that a man rammed his car into a crowd of people, causing at least one death, and instead the conversation is about how horrible the people who got run over were.
Who's done that? Not talking about people commenting on FOX articles, but real people. Who should I be looking up here?

This message board? Compare the amount of talk on the two aspects.

Also random message boards. Also President Trump.
Well, a few of us have suggested that it takes two sides to fight, but I don't recall anybody calling the dead girl or her co-victims awful. I'm pretty sure we few have made it clear that the Nazis are assholes. I've pointed out that the tactics of this Alt-left thing were unsound. I've certainly expressed some dismay that freedom of thought is under attack, but I haven't really related the people doing so to the recently runover, or even their anti-protest compatriots.

One thing three of us have been on about for quite some time, though, is that the tendency for people to interpret "well, they kind of put themselves into a situation" as "they're awful people!!!!" really sucks balls. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cool Chris on August 16, 2017, 09:10:18 PM
I think that was brought up earlier. Maybe I am thinking of another article.

Also, someone a while back referred to the CSA as an enemy country to the USA during the Civil War, thus we should never have remembrances of foreign powers we were at war with on our land. I may be wrong and am happy to be corrected, but didn't the government of the USA consider the Succession illegal and against the Constitution, and thus never recognized the CSA as a foreign combatant? Small point but it just occurred to me, when thinking about these monuments of the CSA and its soldiers.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 16, 2017, 09:14:06 PM
I'm a bit concerned that a man rammed his car into a crowd of people, causing at least one death, and instead the conversation is about how horrible the people who got run over were.
Who's done that? Not talking about people commenting on FOX articles, but real people. Who should I be looking up here?

This message board? Compare the amount of talk on the two aspects.

Also random message boards. Also President Trump.
Well, a few of us have suggested that it takes two sides to fight, but I don't recall anybody calling the dead girl or her co-victims awful. I'm pretty sure we few have made it clear that the Nazis are assholes. I've pointed out that the tactics of this Alt-left thing were unsound. I've certainly expressed some dismay that freedom of thought is under attack, but I haven't really related the people doing so to the recently runover, or even their anti-protest compatriots.

One thing three of us have been on about for quite some time, though, is that the tendency for people to interpret "well, they kind of put themselves into a situation" as "they're awful people!!!!" really sucks balls.

Oh, I poorly worded my thing. I didn't mean to imply that people here were calling them awful. I meant that is the topic of the conversation. We're discussing the role of the counter protesters, and then BLM people, and so forth and how responsible they were or weren't. The idea of talking about the fact that a car rammed into a crowd and killed someone, very similar to what ISIS has done, has barely been mentioned other than "oh yea, that was bad" type thing.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: portnoy311 on August 16, 2017, 09:29:27 PM
I think that was brought up earlier. Maybe I am thinking of another article.

Also, someone a while back referred to the CSA as an enemy country to the USA during the Civil War, thus we should never have remembrances of foreign powers we were at war with on our land. I may be wrong and am happy to be corrected, but didn't the government of the USA consider the Succession illegal and against the Constitution, and thus never recognized the CSA as a foreign combatant? Small point but it just occurred to me, when thinking about these monuments of the CSA and its soldiers.

That was me, or at least I was one of the people who brought up that point. But isn't that like saying Vietnam War wasn't an actual war because Congress hasn't declared war since WWII? If anything it makes it even more dubious as they viewed themselves as a country who was at war with the US, against even recognition by the US.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cool Chris on August 16, 2017, 09:36:38 PM
Right, it is largely semantics. My point was back then, they wouldn't have seen the CSA as a foreign combatant, but more of a stray child, who was brought back in to the fold, thus erecting monuments wouldn't seem as egregious.

The idea of talking about the fact that a car rammed into a crowd and killed someone, very similar to what ISIS has done, has barely been mentioned other than "oh yea, that was bad" type thing.

I think the ONLY argument some people may have, is what motivated the asshole at the time (other than hate, natch). The ISIS dude who straps a bomb to his chest and walks in to the market wakes up knowing that's what he's going to do. Did asshole (surprised Barto hasn't glossed him yet like he does everyone else) wake up that morning with that in mind? Did he feel threatened in any way by the counter-protesters? Was he provoked? These questions may be answered already, I am not following this story closely.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 16, 2017, 09:39:11 PM
I didn't compare it to suicide bombers, I compared to ISIS people who have rammed cars into crowds.

And there's no excuse for what he did. Doesn't matter if he did it in the heat of the moment, or if he felt threatened. I don't get to take out a crowd of people if I feel threatened. If he feels in harms way, he can go in reverse.

I also notice that those kinds of questions aren't asked of other groups of people who do similar things. Do we ask if the violent BLM people feel provoked or threatened or do we just say they're violent? 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cool Chris on August 16, 2017, 09:55:05 PM
You are 100% right, or 99% right, I am not arguing with you. If an angry mob has my car surrounded and is pounding the hell out of it, I am driving out of there. Of course that isn't what happened here. No, we shouldn't give him the benefit of any doubt. Mobs can be violent, either systematically, or reactively (made-up word). But I honestly don't know what other recent incident to compare this too, on any side of the spectrum. 

Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: portnoy311 on August 16, 2017, 09:59:02 PM
Right, it is largely semantics. My point was back then, they wouldn't have seen the CSA as a foreign combatant, but more of a stray child, who was brought back in to the fold, thus erecting monuments wouldn't seem as egregious.

The idea of talking about the fact that a car rammed into a crowd and killed someone, very similar to what ISIS has done, has barely been mentioned other than "oh yea, that was bad" type thing.

I think the ONLY argument some people may have, is what motivated the asshole at the time (other than hate, natch). The ISIS dude who straps a bomb to his chest and walks in to the market wakes up knowing that's what he's going to do. Did asshole (surprised Barto hasn't glossed him yet like he does everyone else) wake up that morning with that in mind? Did he feel threatened in any way by the counter-protesters? Was he provoked? These questions may be answered already, I am not following this story closely.

But the Civil War was very real. These weren't just children, they were military generals and leaders literally waging war against the US. How our government at the time legally viewed the CSA is irrelevant when they also recognized the brutality and scope of the war brought against the US.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 16, 2017, 10:25:18 PM
The idea of talking about the fact that a car rammed into a crowd and killed someone, very similar to what ISIS has done, has barely been mentioned other than "oh yea, that was bad" type thing.

I think the ONLY argument some people may have, is what motivated the asshole at the time (other than hate, natch). The ISIS dude who straps a bomb to his chest and walks in to the market wakes up knowing that's what he's going to do. Did asshole (surprised Barto hasn't glossed him yet like he does everyone else) wake up that morning with that in mind? Did he feel threatened in any way by the counter-protesters? Was he provoked? These questions may be answered already, I am not following this story closely.
To be honest, the need to specifically denounce the guy as an asshole never occurred to me (though it's likely I did in passing). It'd be like starting a thread here to pronounce that the Earth is round or that fish swim in water. Not speaking for anybody else, but I kind of gathered the guy's status as a tool was taken as read and we were moving on to the more discussable aspects of what went down. If the only pertinent part of it is whether or not he's a POS this thread would simply be an 18 post quote pyramid following "Yup, he's a tool."
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Implode on August 16, 2017, 10:45:55 PM
Adami, I think the reason no one is talking about the driver is that we all agree that it was a terrible thing. There's nothing to argue about on that end. (I hope.  :P )
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Adami on August 16, 2017, 11:03:30 PM
Adami, I think the reason no one is talking about the driver is that we all agree that it was a terrible thing. There's nothing to argue about on that end. (I hope.  :P )

Oh I gotcha. Don't think we should be arguing about whether what he did was wrong. But we're not talking about how to stop future incidents. We're not talking about what to do about it. We just brush it aside. If a Muslim had done this, there'd be talk of new laws, etc.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 17, 2017, 05:35:22 AM

 But I honestly don't know what other recent incident to compare this too, on any side of the spectrum.

Weren't there a few similar incidents of cars being used by terrorists in europe just last year?
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 17, 2017, 05:37:12 AM
About confederate memorials.  They are definitely a part of US history,  that's why they belong in a museum about racism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/08/16/the-whole-point-of-confederate-monuments-is-to-celebrate-white-supremacy/?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.2bd70987d9f7

Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: bosk1 on August 17, 2017, 07:48:02 AM
The idea of talking about the fact that a car rammed into a crowd and killed someone, very similar to what ISIS has done, has barely been mentioned other than "oh yea, that was bad" type thing.

I think the ONLY argument some people may have, is what motivated the asshole at the time (other than hate, natch). The ISIS dude who straps a bomb to his chest and walks in to the market wakes up knowing that's what he's going to do. Did asshole (surprised Barto hasn't glossed him yet like he does everyone else) wake up that morning with that in mind? Did he feel threatened in any way by the counter-protesters? Was he provoked? These questions may be answered already, I am not following this story closely.
To be honest, the need to specifically denounce the guy as an asshole never occurred to me (though it's likely I did in passing). It'd be like starting a thread here to pronounce that the Earth is round or that fish swim in water. Not speaking for anybody else, but I kind of gathered the guy's status as a tool was taken as read and we were moving on to the more discussable aspects of what went down. If the only pertinent part of it is whether or not he's a POS this thread would simply be an 18 post quote pyramid following "Yup, he's a tool."

Yeah, pretty much this.  Adami, we aren't talking about it more for the simple reason that we are in agreement and there isn't anything else to say, that's all.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 17, 2017, 07:53:11 AM
Damn, you guys have been busy since yesterday.

This logic of "Trump has to disavow" is ridiculous, I'm sorry.   Jodie Foster is not at all accountable when John Hinkley cites her as a rationale for his evil deeds.   

I don't think you can compare the two because while nobody would argue that Jodie Foster actually did anything to encourage John Hinckley, I think it's very easy to argue that Donald Trump, in words and actions, has at times encouraged white supremacists right from the start of his campaign (that old "Mexicans are rapists" gem).

I understand your point, but I'm skittish about that "encouraged".  You've got people that hate Trump no matter what he does, that aren't willing to give him even the slightest benefit of the doubt, and interpret EVERY possible statement in the least flattering light... why isn't that the case on the opposite side?   Meaning, it's just as likely that the hate groups aren't really getting "encouragement" as much as they are interpreting everything they hear in the most flattering light.   And when you have a platform that doesn't pander to identity politics (like some on the left most certainly do), when you don't think that identity politics are a silver bullet that trump all other issues, it's easy to find things that fit - or can be made to fit - into the agenda.

Look, Trump is a flawed, failing President; I don't think there is any argument on that.   But the knock on him is that "he doesn't stand for anything"; you can't really then say "well, except for racism, because, uh..."   I really do truly feel he has zero allegiance to ANY cause; the white supremacists, business, anything, other than Brand Trump.    I could well be wrong, and this is deep cover for some more sinister agenda, but the facts don't really support that.   Even BANNON - who's supposed to be the house racist - has come out and said these hate groups are losers (I think that's the exact word he used, too, among others).   
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 17, 2017, 08:02:17 AM
picking up the thread about "Alt-Left"   this is a pretty good rundown of why that's not a thing https://www.wired.com/story/what-is-alt-left/

Quote
Ultimately, the intent seems to be to frame alt-left as the opposite of alt-right and create a false equivalence between groups on the far ends of the right and left. But here's the thing: No left-wing group has ever called itself the alt-left. And the groups smeared by the alt-left label don't include anything like the heinousness of overt white supremacism that has increasingly defined the alt-right.

And at first, Obama hated the phrase "Obamacare" and refused to use it.   Look, I get it, we're all supposed to pop hernias saying the obvious, how bad Nazi's are and how they're responsible for everything from killing people to New Coke to the abomination that was bringing Joe Lynn Turner into Deep Purple.   But whether it's ACTUALLY called "alt-Left", or whether it's embraced as a term or not, the fact remains:  extremism of ANY kind is something to be watched, to be mistrusted, and to be met with an appropriate level of skepticism. 

This is human nature taking over; the overt, immediate harm to a relatively small number of people has import, when the slower, more systemic harm to the ENTIRE COUNTRY gets glossed over as "nothing to worry about".  It's like the preface to that book "Risk!" by Dave I-can't-remember-his-last-name-but-he-went-to-Harvard; he talks about the woman in court fighting like Erin Brockovich because some company might have polluted water that increased the odds of brain cancer by 1 in 10,000, but during breaks went out and chain-smoked cigarettes that are almost a certainty to kill her early. 

I got in trouble from Jingle for calling people "liberals", so I'll say, it's easy to say "this isn't a problem" when you happen to agree with some of the premises of the group being discussed (and no, this isn't irony; I DO see the alt-right as a very BIG problem, and I share little in agreement with them.  I just have a more profound faith in our system to ultimately lead us to the right place without the immediacy of excess emotion).   
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 17, 2017, 08:09:28 AM
I'm a bit concerned that a man rammed his car into a crowd of people, causing at least one death, and instead the conversation is about how horrible the people who got run over were.
Who's done that? Not talking about people commenting on FOX articles, but real people. Who should I be looking up here?

This message board? Compare the amount of talk on the two aspects.

Also random message boards. Also President Trump.
Well, a few of us have suggested that it takes two sides to fight, but I don't recall anybody calling the dead girl or her co-victims awful. I'm pretty sure we few have made it clear that the Nazis are assholes. I've pointed out that the tactics of this Alt-left thing were unsound. I've certainly expressed some dismay that freedom of thought is under attack, but I haven't really related the people doing so to the recently runover, or even their anti-protest compatriots.

One thing three of us have been on about for quite some time, though, is that the tendency for people to interpret "well, they kind of put themselves into a situation" as "they're awful people!!!!" really sucks balls.

Oh, I poorly worded my thing. I didn't mean to imply that people here were calling them awful. I meant that is the topic of the conversation. We're discussing the role of the counter protesters, and then BLM people, and so forth and how responsible they were or weren't. The idea of talking about the fact that a car rammed into a crowd and killed someone, very similar to what ISIS has done, has barely been mentioned other than "oh yea, that was bad" type thing.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm not sure what else can be said about that. It was a heinous act, pure and simple.  I feel bad for that woman, individually, because from all accounts (well, her mom; I watched excerpts from the memorial) she was a passionate caring person that didn't deserve to die so young.  I can't really help that that's not the most intellectually compelling aspect of this event.   That's not to say it's not the most tragic, but it is, unfortunately, a symbol of more than just the courage of one woman to stand up and have her beliefs heard. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 17, 2017, 08:18:34 AM

And when you have a platform that doesn't pander to identity politics (like some on the left most certainly do), when you don't think that identity politics are a silver bullet that trump all other issues, it's easy to find things that fit - or can be made to fit - into the agenda.


Dude you were almost there.  If he had a platform that didn't pander to identity politics as you put it,  maybe he had a platform that pandered to other interests.  Anti-muslim and anti-immigration interests,  taking back the country interests, you know,  white supremacy.

edit:  doesn't mean he believes any of it, but we know who was advising him.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 17, 2017, 08:24:59 AM
I didn't compare it to suicide bombers, I compared to ISIS people who have rammed cars into crowds.

And there's no excuse for what he did. Doesn't matter if he did it in the heat of the moment, or if he felt threatened. I don't get to take out a crowd of people if I feel threatened. If he feels in harms way, he can go in reverse.

I also notice that those kinds of questions aren't asked of other groups of people who do similar things. Do we ask if the violent BLM people feel provoked or threatened or do we just say they're violent?

You've veered into the idea that he's being defended.   Jingle keeps positing scenarios that are exactly as you put it forth above in the attempt to justify reactions to the Nazi's; why is this any different?  We have conclusively shown that if you are threatened with imminent harm, you ARE allowed to strike back.   Yeah, he could have reversed.   But the protestors could have stayed home to begin with, the counter-protestors could have assembled a block away, Hillary could have been President... that's not how the analysis goes.   I think this goes to the heart of the discussion, if you strip away the prejudicial facts of the case.   

I can't help but go back to something that El Barto says often in a completely different context:  this is like a plane crash.  You don't necessarily have one catastrophic, preventable, reversible event that caused the plane to go down, but rather a series of events that, in a chain, culminate in a tragic event.   Breaking that chain is imperative, but simply taking out a link is problematic for many reasons.  I think we're talking about that chain now.  That doesn't minimize the tragedy that is the "perfect storm", nor does justifying the presence of any of those links.   

I can't imagine the feelings I would have if it was my kid; I'd be so sad that she lost her life over something so ridiculous as some old asshole refusing to see the world as it is, multi-faceted (as opposed to the way he wants to see it, white).  I'd be proud as heck that she went down fighting for something she believed in.  I'd be shocked.  I'd be devastated.   But my individual feelings don't, and shouldn't, supercede what is ultimately right (as in, the best answer for our country, for the collective).   
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 17, 2017, 08:26:50 AM
The idea of talking about the fact that a car rammed into a crowd and killed someone, very similar to what ISIS has done, has barely been mentioned other than "oh yea, that was bad" type thing.

I think the ONLY argument some people may have, is what motivated the asshole at the time (other than hate, natch). The ISIS dude who straps a bomb to his chest and walks in to the market wakes up knowing that's what he's going to do. Did asshole (surprised Barto hasn't glossed him yet like he does everyone else) wake up that morning with that in mind? Did he feel threatened in any way by the counter-protesters? Was he provoked? These questions may be answered already, I am not following this story closely.
To be honest, the need to specifically denounce the guy as an asshole never occurred to me (though it's likely I did in passing). It'd be like starting a thread here to pronounce that the Earth is round or that fish swim in water. Not speaking for anybody else, but I kind of gathered the guy's status as a tool was taken as read and we were moving on to the more discussable aspects of what went down. If the only pertinent part of it is whether or not he's a POS this thread would simply be an 18 post quote pyramid following "Yup, he's a tool."

And a smattering of "+1  :tup"'s.   :)
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 17, 2017, 08:36:58 AM
About confederate memorials.  They are definitely a part of US history,  that's why they belong in a museum about racism.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/posteverything/wp/2017/08/16/the-whole-point-of-confederate-monuments-is-to-celebrate-white-supremacy/?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.2bd70987d9f7

I disagree with that.   The Confederacy wasn't just about "racism".   In fact, given the misinformation and the lack of awareness of many with regards to the "electoral college", I would proffer that the idea of the Confederacy is more relevant than ever, and is being clouded - no, let's be more direct and say "overwhelmed" - by the spectre of racism.

This is what I mean by the notion that "identity politics do not trump other issues".   Yes, racism was an element of that whole fiasco.   But there was racism in the north AND south before the Civil War, during the Civil War, and unfortunately, after the Civil War.   Some of you would argue (not wrongly) that there is racism today.

What the Confederacy was about more than racism (I know, I know, I must be DEPLORABLE!) is STATES RIGHTS.   That doesn't marshal people protesting in the streets, it doesn't lend itself to cute little memes with a beautiful (in every sense of the word) black woman standing down armed, armored law enforcement, but it IS for better or worse the crux of the issue.  The Founding Fathers did not consciously and with forethought punt the slavery issue because they were white racist bastards; they punted it because they knew something that the emotional and reactive didn't:   that without a union of States (someone look up the name of this country; it'll tell you a lot) slavery wasn't going ANYWHERE.   It was here to stay as long as each colony was an entity unto itself.  Further, that "union" of states, united in purpose, would never happen if a prerequisite was "get rid of slavery".   Adams in particular - this was the guy that risked EVERYTHING to defend British soldiers in a court case just prior to the adoption of the Declaration of Independence, to much scorn and ridicule, I might add - knew slavery to be a dead end economically, politically, and from a basic human rights perspective.  He was not naïve; he knew it ran afoul of almost every tenet of the new "Bill of Rights" document. 

But he knew it had to be a process (this is why Adams is by far my favorite of the Founding Fathers).   And so the first step was to get the country - as opposed to the colonies individually - united as states.   The United States of America.   From there, the Federal sovereignty could assert it's power, always in keeping with the powers reserved to the States explicitly and implicitly in the Constitution, and address the elephant in the room.   The CFA was a reaction and a rejection to that. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 17, 2017, 08:43:13 AM

And when you have a platform that doesn't pander to identity politics (like some on the left most certainly do), when you don't think that identity politics are a silver bullet that trump all other issues, it's easy to find things that fit - or can be made to fit - into the agenda.


Dude you were almost there.  If he had a platform that didn't pander to identity politics as you put it,  maybe he had a platform that pandered to other interests.  Anti-muslim and anti-immigration interests,  taking back the country interests, you know,  white supremacy.

edit:  doesn't mean he believes any of it, but we know who was advising him.

Since I DON'T know, enlighten me.  Who was advising him?  The guy who ALSO came out and called those white supremacists "losers"?   

He DOES have a platform that panders to other interests:  himself.   What you're falling victim to is the Twitter mentality of politics in the USA circa 2017, and that is, the REQUIREMENT that if it isn't in black and white, repeated OVER AND OVER like a mantra, it doesn't exist.   That he DOESN'T pander to "identity politics" doesn't automatically mean he panders to the opposite of that.   I don't at all think that identity politics should control the conversation, however, I am for gay marriage, I am for equal pay for women, I am for the idea that we, all 325 million of us, deserve the same rights under the Constitution and the laws and regulations of our country, and deserve the same consideration for any endeavor we undertake.   This isn't new; I've said this countless times on this forum and others.    The libertarian in me says that anyone should be able to marry or fuck or whatever they choose with any other consenting adult regardless of gender; but I can't see myself ever voting for a candidate based solely on that platform or concept.  I feel the economics of the nation are far more important than the feelings of any one person with respect to their personal relationship.  That doesn't make me a bigot. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 17, 2017, 08:51:57 AM

Since I DON'T know, enlighten me.  Who was advising him?  The guy who ALSO came out and called those white supremacists "losers"?   

OMG Bannon called them losers ! Silly me, I take back everything I ever said about him,  he's an awesome guy!  :\

It doesn't change anything.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: antigoon on August 17, 2017, 09:02:53 AM
I would say that Trump's campaign was all about identity politics. Just as much if not more than the others. It was just...white identity politics.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Kattelox on August 17, 2017, 09:38:31 AM
I've never really checked into this thread before but now I'm amazed some of ya'll have been pulling double duty with these subjects (until recent events elsewhere). Good stuff... :)
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 17, 2017, 09:43:51 AM

Since I DON'T know, enlighten me.  Who was advising him?  The guy who ALSO came out and called those white supremacists "losers"?   

OMG Bannon called them losers ! Silly me, I take back everything I ever said about him,  he's an awesome guy!  :\

It doesn't change anything.

Not for someone who's mind is already made up, no.   But it is relevant information to process and incorporate into your world view.   You can dismiss it as "PR", but the Steve Bannon I'm familiar with hasn't shown all that much sensitivity to PR concerns before.  He tends to just not say anything rather than say platitudes intended to get his opposition to be kind to him. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 17, 2017, 09:50:08 AM
I would say that Trump's campaign was all about identity politics. Just as much if not more than the others. It was just...white identity politics.

Respectfully I disagree.  This is a major point, one that doesn't get discussed enough, in my opinion.   I've said it here already (recently), but this is a problem with the nature of the discourse today and this need to be "proactively PC".   That you DON'T actively advocate for something does NOT mean you are against it.   I honestly do not believe that by NOT making special interest "identity politics" the number one priority that it means that it's defacto "white identity politics".   

He was by and large silent on gay rights and gay initiatives.  He was by and large silent (pre-election; I don't know WHAT he was thinking with the recent announcement) on trans issues.   He was callous and careless with the Mexican comments, but that was in the context of immigration, not "race relations".  Much of the "racist" evidence against Trump is a stretch and defies credibility ("Mexican" isn't a "race", it's a nationality; he wasn't calling out "Latinos", he was arguably referring to the citizens of our neighboring country.   His "Muslim ban" didn't touch 90% of the world's Muslims, so is a pretty crappy ban on "Muslims".   There's a lot of "Hmm, he MUST be a racist, so let's see what fits!" in this argument). 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: antigoon on August 17, 2017, 10:02:54 AM
I would say that Trump's campaign was all about identity politics. Just as much if not more than the others. It was just...white identity politics.

Respectfully I disagree.  This is a major point, one that doesn't get discussed enough, in my opinion.   I've said it here already (recently), but this is a problem with the nature of the discourse today and this need to be "proactively PC".   That you DON'T actively advocate for something does NOT mean you are against it.   I honestly do not believe that by NOT making special interest "identity politics" the number one priority that it means that it's defacto "white identity politics".   

He was by and large silent on gay rights and gay initiatives.  He was by and large silent (pre-election; I don't know WHAT he was thinking with the recent announcement) on trans issues.   He was callous and careless with the Mexican comments, but that was in the context of immigration, not "race relations".  Much of the "racist" evidence against Trump is a stretch and defies credibility ("Mexican" isn't a "race", it's a nationality; he wasn't calling out "Latinos", he was arguably referring to the citizens of our neighboring country.   His "Muslim ban" didn't touch 90% of the world's Muslims, so is a pretty crappy ban on "Muslims".   There's a lot of "Hmm, he MUST be a racist, so let's see what fits!" in this argument). 

I dunno man, from my perspective his entire campaign was about stoking white grievance. Starting with "Make America Great Again" all the way through to the end. You're right that not actively advocating for something doesn't automatically mean you're against it, but I don't think that's what happened here. The Trump campaign really leaned into this stuff in a way that recent Republican nominees have not.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 17, 2017, 10:49:03 AM
I would say that Trump's campaign was all about identity politics. Just as much if not more than the others. It was just...white identity politics.

Respectfully I disagree.  This is a major point, one that doesn't get discussed enough, in my opinion.   I've said it here already (recently), but this is a problem with the nature of the discourse today and this need to be "proactively PC".   That you DON'T actively advocate for something does NOT mean you are against it.   I honestly do not believe that by NOT making special interest "identity politics" the number one priority that it means that it's defacto "white identity politics".   

He was by and large silent on gay rights and gay initiatives.  He was by and large silent (pre-election; I don't know WHAT he was thinking with the recent announcement) on trans issues.   He was callous and careless with the Mexican comments, but that was in the context of immigration, not "race relations".  Much of the "racist" evidence against Trump is a stretch and defies credibility ("Mexican" isn't a "race", it's a nationality; he wasn't calling out "Latinos", he was arguably referring to the citizens of our neighboring country.   His "Muslim ban" didn't touch 90% of the world's Muslims, so is a pretty crappy ban on "Muslims".   There's a lot of "Hmm, he MUST be a racist, so let's see what fits!" in this argument). 

I dunno man, from my perspective his entire campaign was about stoking white grievance. Starting with "Make America Great Again" all the way through to the end. You're right that not actively advocating for something doesn't automatically mean you're against it, but I don't think that's what happened here. The Trump campaign really leaned into this stuff in a way that recent Republican nominees have not.

I struggle with this.  I see your point, I really do.  I struggle with the notion of appealing to A class of voter, as a general proposition, because that class has a definable issue to be addressed, and the notion of appealing to a subclass of that voter for insidious reasons.     Look, this isn't two-dimensional.  If I'm a racist teacher, and your platform is a pointed appeal to teachers, and I support you as a teacher, what part does the "racist" play in that?   People can and do make decisions for one reason, many reasons, or no reason at all.   I have been clear:  I was ready to vote for Hillary until she perjured herself; I have a big problem with the apparent lawlessness of the Clintons.  I think Bill was one of our best Presidents - ever - and I would vote for him today, but I say that with the knowledge that because of term limits, he can't run.  If that rule were rescinded, I'd have a big problem because of his acknowledged perjury and some of the other, less official ways he's run afoul of the system (the "airport meeting with Loretta Lynch" comes to mind).   It wasn't enough for me to then vote for Trump (whose inexperience was enough for me to not vote for him; Obama served in the Senate and he proved himself to not be prepared for the Presidency, so how could a guy who has NEVER held elected office be prepared for that?)

So how do you boil things down to that level?   I think ALL candidates of any stripe receive votes from demographics that they'd rather not acknowledge, and Trump is no different.   I think the issues at play here lend themselves to abuse, but - like alcohol and marijuana - you have to sort of accept that very few things come with NO baggage whatsoever.   That a candidate appeals to a "white voter" doesn't make that appeal racist, any more than that a candidate appeals to a "black voter" makes that a racist appeal (or does it?)
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 17, 2017, 10:55:55 AM

 But I honestly don't know what other recent incident to compare this too, on any side of the spectrum.

Weren't there a few similar incidents of cars being used by terrorists in europe just last year?

Correction, there was another one just today  :sad: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/barcelona-car-crash-1.4251171
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 17, 2017, 11:59:54 AM
I recall a few pages ago Stadler mentioned he once punched someone in the face for calling his friend a racial slur and how conflicted he felt about it.   Far be it from me to say how he should feel,  I've  never been in that situation as an adult and I imagine I' be upset about it too however justfied I was.   But I would like offer this point of view  written by one of my facebook acquaintances whose name I'll leave out of it for privacy.

Quote
White friends who say that violence against Nazis is wrong: when you say that you're telling the people of color you know, the Jews, the gay people you know that you don't think protecting them is worth the transgression of socking a Nazi in the jaw. You're telling them that you would rather debate the guy who is calling for their extermination than shut that guy down forcibly. You're telling them that your support for them is intellectual, maybe even emotional, but that's as far as you'll go. You simply don't think it's tasteful to get your hands dirty.

The racists who showed up in Charlottesville showed up with weapons. They had weapons caches hidden around the city. They showed up in paramilitary gear. They showed up with flags that represent genocide. They showed up not to make their voices heard but rather to intimidate and frighten people, to forcefully assert their dominance. They showed up hoping to hurt people, emotionally and physically. THIS WAS ALWAYS THEIR PLAN.

They are ready, willing and able to kill. And you're saying it's not okay to punch them or throw rocks at them?

This isn't a disagreement over politics. This isn't about policy. This is about people who want to eliminate other human beings from this country, and eventually from this earth. And they're not just talking about it - THEY HAVE A PRESIDENT IN OFFICE.

Attacking Nazis is clearly an act of not only self-defense but defense of millions of other people around you. So when you tut-tut about antifa attacking Nazis, you're very simply telling everyone who isn't white and straight that your adherence to a polite status quo is more valuable than their actual lives.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 17, 2017, 12:13:07 PM
Quote from: XeRock's Friend
White friends who say that violence against Nazis is wrong: when you say that you're telling the people of color you know, the Jews, the gay people you know that you don't think protecting them is worth the transgression of socking a Nazi in the jaw. You're telling them that you would rather debate the guy who is calling for their extermination than shut that guy down forcibly. You're telling them that your support for them is intellectual, maybe even emotional, but that's as far as you'll go. You simply don't think it's tasteful to get your hands dirty.
I'd have no trouble at all defending a friend who was threatened. Some asshole simply expressing his opinion isn't threatening him. If words become actions I'll have his/her back. Until then my support is intellectual so long as the "threat" is intellectual.

And to put it frankly, my friends are smart enough to understand the difference. Your acquaintance apparently isn't.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: bosk1 on August 17, 2017, 12:44:34 PM
Quote from: XeRock's Friend
White friends who say that violence against Nazis is wrong: when you say that you're telling the people of color you know, the Jews, the gay people you know that you don't think protecting them is worth the transgression of socking a Nazi in the jaw. You're telling them that you would rather debate the guy who is calling for their extermination than shut that guy down forcibly. You're telling them that your support for them is intellectual, maybe even emotional, but that's as far as you'll go. You simply don't think it's tasteful to get your hands dirty.
I'd have no trouble at all defending a friend who was threatened. Some asshole simply expressing his opinion isn't threatening him. If words become actions I'll have his/her back. Until then my support is intellectual so long as the "threat" is intellectual.

And to put it frankly, my friends are smart enough to understand the difference. Your acquaintance apparently isn't.
My thoughts exactly.  XeRocks81, your friend is drawing a false equivalency.  Not violently responding to a nonviolent assembly is NOT the same as not defending or protecting minorities.  Unless, of course, he is asking for protection from having his feelings hurt or protection from being offended. 

I do think his error is in good faith.  I think he honestly believes what he wrote.  But it isn't correct.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 17, 2017, 01:10:06 PM
Quote from: XeRock's Friend
White friends who say that violence against Nazis is wrong: when you say that you're telling the people of color you know, the Jews, the gay people you know that you don't think protecting them is worth the transgression of socking a Nazi in the jaw. You're telling them that you would rather debate the guy who is calling for their extermination than shut that guy down forcibly. You're telling them that your support for them is intellectual, maybe even emotional, but that's as far as you'll go. You simply don't think it's tasteful to get your hands dirty.
I'd have no trouble at all defending a friend who was threatened. Some asshole simply expressing his opinion isn't threatening him. If words become actions I'll have his/her back. Until then my support is intellectual so long as the "threat" is intellectual.

And to put it frankly, my friends are smart enough to understand the difference. Your acquaintance apparently isn't.
My thoughts exactly.  XeRocks81, your friend is drawing a false equivalency.  Not violently responding to a nonviolent assembly is NOT the same as not defending or protecting minorities.  Unless, of course, he is asking for protection from having his feelings hurt or protection from being offended. 

I do think his error is in good faith.  I think he honestly believes what he wrote.  But it isn't correct.

I'm with both of you.   In my case I wasn't the first to make the scene violent.  It was part of a scuffle, and it was pushing and shoving until the dude dropped the "N-bomb".  I'm hard pressed to find an example where "violence" is justified first out of the gate.   Even the over-used references to Normandy seem to overlook that our invasion was a reaction, not an action.

Frankly, XeRocks81, that sounds like a rationalization for a mindset, albeit a well-written one.   Remember too, I'm the guy that is against the death penalty because I feel it is wrong to knowingly and with intent kill another human being. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: antigoon on August 17, 2017, 01:13:33 PM
I would say that Trump's campaign was all about identity politics. Just as much if not more than the others. It was just...white identity politics.

Respectfully I disagree.  This is a major point, one that doesn't get discussed enough, in my opinion.   I've said it here already (recently), but this is a problem with the nature of the discourse today and this need to be "proactively PC".   That you DON'T actively advocate for something does NOT mean you are against it.   I honestly do not believe that by NOT making special interest "identity politics" the number one priority that it means that it's defacto "white identity politics".   

He was by and large silent on gay rights and gay initiatives.  He was by and large silent (pre-election; I don't know WHAT he was thinking with the recent announcement) on trans issues.   He was callous and careless with the Mexican comments, but that was in the context of immigration, not "race relations".  Much of the "racist" evidence against Trump is a stretch and defies credibility ("Mexican" isn't a "race", it's a nationality; he wasn't calling out "Latinos", he was arguably referring to the citizens of our neighboring country.   His "Muslim ban" didn't touch 90% of the world's Muslims, so is a pretty crappy ban on "Muslims".   There's a lot of "Hmm, he MUST be a racist, so let's see what fits!" in this argument). 

I dunno man, from my perspective his entire campaign was about stoking white grievance. Starting with "Make America Great Again" all the way through to the end. You're right that not actively advocating for something doesn't automatically mean you're against it, but I don't think that's what happened here. The Trump campaign really leaned into this stuff in a way that recent Republican nominees have not.

So how do you boil things down to that level?   I think ALL candidates of any stripe receive votes from demographics that they'd rather not acknowledge, and Trump is no different.   I think the issues at play here lend themselves to abuse, but - like alcohol and marijuana - you have to sort of accept that very few things come with NO baggage whatsoever.   That a candidate appeals to a "white voter" doesn't make that appeal racist, any more than that a candidate appeals to a "black voter" makes that a racist appeal (or does it?)

You are absolutely right about this. I just think that Trump went beyond merely appealing to white voters by actively stoking racial resentment and animus.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Cool Chris on August 23, 2017, 10:39:44 AM
LOL

https://www.si.com/tech-media/2017/08/23/robert-lee-espn-decision-pull-announcer-broadcast
Quote
The sports announcer Robert Lee...has found himself at the center of a major sports controversy on perceived political correctness run amok. In what ESPN says was a joint decision between the broadcaster and the company, Lee was removed from broadcasting Virginia’s season-opening football game on Sept. 2 against William & Mary because of the similarity of his name to the Confederate general Robert E. Lee.

But not really LOL. More like  :'(
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: kaos2900 on August 23, 2017, 12:03:14 PM
ESPN is a joke and has been a joke for years.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Chino on August 23, 2017, 12:10:54 PM
LOL

https://www.si.com/tech-media/2017/08/23/robert-lee-espn-decision-pull-announcer-broadcast
Quote
The sports announcer Robert Lee...has found himself at the center of a major sports controversy on perceived political correctness run amok. In what ESPN says was a joint decision between the broadcaster and the company, Lee was removed from broadcasting Virginia’s season-opening football game on Sept. 2 against William & Mary because of the similarity of his name to the Confederate general Robert E. Lee.

But not really LOL. More like  :'(

I've read that he made the decision to do that himself and told ESPN he didn't want to announce it.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 23, 2017, 12:12:11 PM
Anyone who has any sense of reason and practicality when it comes to dealing with the inanity of "political correctness" need only reference this event from now on.   Not only is this a joke, but this is so outlandish that in my opinion, it tarnishes the underlying sentiment, and makes a joke of the underlying issue.   I'm not always as understanding as I can be with those that jump to offense, but this is insulting even to them. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: kaos2900 on August 23, 2017, 01:12:33 PM
This was a great op-ed related to the ESPN debacle.

https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/espn-robert-lee-moment-proves-trump-won-monument-debate-article-1.3435388
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: antigoon on August 23, 2017, 01:41:32 PM
What we have here is an amoral corporation so afraid of controversy that it has totally lost touch with everything and everyone. The idea that anyone would actually be offended by this Robert Lee calling that game is just astounding. They're being rightly pilloried from all angles with the wonderful side-effect of diminishing actual activism by giving the Ann Coulters and other right-wing culture warriors of the world more ammunition to discredit the whole movement. Good grief.

edit - i didn't read your post before writing mine but needless to say I agree with you.

Anyone who has any sense of reason and practicality when it comes to dealing with the inanity of "political correctness" need only reference this event from now on.   Not only is this a joke, but this is so outlandish that in my opinion, it tarnishes the underlying sentiment, and makes a joke of the underlying issue.   I'm not always as understanding as I can be with those that jump to offense, but this is insulting even to them. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 23, 2017, 01:43:33 PM
This was a great op-ed related to the ESPN debacle.

https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/espn-robert-lee-moment-proves-trump-won-monument-debate-article-1.3435388

I called it:  "Whatever seriousness this argument once had is gone. And I, for one, think that’s a real shame." - S.E. Cupp
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: kaos2900 on August 23, 2017, 01:51:08 PM
What's frustrating to me is that it's the nutjobs on both sides ruining this country while the rational people towards middle are just sitting around watching this shit on the news shaking our heads. Most of these violent protesters are nothing but professional trouble makers who want to destroy things and throw shit at cops. If people would just ignore these morons and stop broadcasting their faces everywhere I'd assume that a lot of this crap would go away.

Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Chino on August 23, 2017, 01:54:22 PM
This was a great op-ed related to the ESPN debacle.

https://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/espn-robert-lee-moment-proves-trump-won-monument-debate-article-1.3435388

I called it:  "Whatever seriousness this argument once had is gone. And I, for one, think that’s a real shame." - S.E. Cupp

Trump dared liberals to go down this kooky rabbit hole of political correctness. It’s fertile ground and he knew they’d take the bait.

I really wish more people could understand this concept. Their behavior makes them look really hypocritical and they're playing right into the narrative that the other side wants them to. If they could just keep their mouths shut and their hands to themselves for a few months, Trump would implode on his own. Instead, they give him an unlimited supply of ammunition.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: XeRocks81 on August 23, 2017, 02:41:14 PM
https://sports.vice.com/en_us/article/5995a8/espn-and-robert-lee-learn-people-love-being-angry-about-everything

This piece goes in sort of the same direction as the other one that was posted but I kinda prefer it.   At least we all agree it's a dumb story.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: portnoy311 on August 23, 2017, 04:15:10 PM
Robert Lee himself asked for a change because he didn't want to go to Charlottesville. That part is missing from most op eds.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: kingshmegland on August 23, 2017, 06:20:32 PM
Except that this world has gone so bat shit crazy that a man, an Asian man with a name of a confederate general has to worry about these things.

Him being Asian adds to the absurdity.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: KevShmev on August 23, 2017, 06:23:42 PM
I thought it was satire or shtick when someone at work today told me about it. :lol :lol

What about that nimrod getting upset last week about the mock fantasy football auction, comparing it to slavery? :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 23, 2017, 06:52:26 PM
Best point I've seen about it:
Quote
No matter that Robert Lee is Asian-American and his name has nothing to do with the Confederacy or slavery. It seems unreasonable, ignorant and downright ridiculous to associate his name in any way with the Confederate general. Still, nothing we've witnessed in Charlottesville, or since, has been reasonable or intelligent.

People are understandably latching onto the absurdity of it, but in the end it's not much of a thing, save for the Streisand effect. They didn't want him to be caught up in a bunch of bullshit so they swapped games. They didn't fire him. They didn't tell him to stay home. Yet to hear people rejoicing in their opportunity to laugh at fools you'd think they fired him because he wouldn't change his name. Stadler chalked this up to ESPN being overly PC, and thus the subject of ridicule, but in the end it's ESPN being overcautious. Just as troubling, but a different argument that doesn't lend itself to mockery, and thus an opportunity lost.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: kingshmegland on August 23, 2017, 06:57:42 PM
The absurdity of it is that Robert had to worry about it. It's come to association with no association.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: kaos2900 on August 24, 2017, 07:35:55 AM
Robert Lee himself asked for a change because he didn't want to go to Charlottesville. That part is missing from most op eds.

Source? I've seen this mentioned, but the direct quote from ESPN says it a joint decision by the network and the broadcaster. And by that, I'm sure it was ESPN saying that their moving him and he agreed because what else could he do.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 24, 2017, 07:43:05 AM
What's frustrating to me is that it's the nutjobs on both sides ruining this country while the rational people towards middle are just sitting around watching this shit on the news shaking our heads. Most of these violent protesters are nothing but professional trouble makers who want to destroy things and throw shit at cops. If people would just ignore these morons and stop broadcasting their faces everywhere I'd assume that a lot of this crap would go away.

We had this conversation, here, right after the last mass shooting.   "Why say their names?  Why give them the martyrdom they're clearly seeking?"   Why doesn't that apply here?   I think it's harder when the message is one you identify with. We don't take easily to shutting down our OWN arguments, only those of others. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 24, 2017, 07:53:13 AM
Best point I've seen about it:
Quote
No matter that Robert Lee is Asian-American and his name has nothing to do with the Confederacy or slavery. It seems unreasonable, ignorant and downright ridiculous to associate his name in any way with the Confederate general. Still, nothing we've witnessed in Charlottesville, or since, has been reasonable or intelligent.

People are understandably latching onto the absurdity of it, but in the end it's not much of a thing, save for the Streisand effect. They didn't want him to be caught up in a bunch of bullshit so they swapped games. They didn't fire him. They didn't tell him to stay home. Yet to hear people rejoicing in their opportunity to laugh at fools you'd think they fired him because he wouldn't change his name. Stadler chalked this up to ESPN being overly PC, and thus the subject of ridicule, but in the end it's ESPN being overcautious. Just as troubling, but a different argument that doesn't lend itself to mockery, and thus an opportunity lost.

Yeah, but you seem to suggest I picked that route for the mockery factor, and that's not really accurate.   I put the onus on ESPN because it was in their court to do the right thing.  Now, a caveat:  if Robert Lee came to his supervisor and said "look, my name was "Li" when I came over, but the fucktards at immigration changed it to "Lee" and now I'm scared for my life", then that's one thing (and this article seems to reinforce that:  https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/08/23/espns-decision-to-pull-announcer-robert-lee-from-game-sparks-outcry.html).   But if it is a safety factor, why is it an issue?    It's not as if "Robert Lee" is "John Madden" or "Al Michaels" ("hey, why is Madden not doing the game? Is he sick?").    Networks change announcers all the time, and - as far as I know, and I watch a lot of sports - it's never an issue, unless the person is sick or dying or something, and then it's usually a mention in the booth ("Some of you will note that Stadler was supposed to be here; his hemorhhoids are acting up, and there's another kerfluffle on DTF about whether Mike Portnoy is thin-skinned or not and he has to defend him, so he is unable to join us.  Our thoughts and prayers are with him and his family.")

'Course, arguably, this guy has it worse:  https://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/ravens-broadcaster-gerry-sandusky-says-removal-of-robert-lee-shows-level-of-epidemic-insanity/mb9oxl2azacw1p3wkhsx448v0
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: cramx3 on August 24, 2017, 08:00:58 AM
'Course, arguably, this guy has it worse:  https://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/ravens-broadcaster-gerry-sandusky-says-removal-of-robert-lee-shows-level-of-epidemic-insanity/mb9oxl2azacw1p3wkhsx448v0

 :lol

Best point I've seen about it:
Quote
No matter that Robert Lee is Asian-American and his name has nothing to do with the Confederacy or slavery. It seems unreasonable, ignorant and downright ridiculous to associate his name in any way with the Confederate general. Still, nothing we've witnessed in Charlottesville, or since, has been reasonable or intelligent.

People are understandably latching onto the absurdity of it, but in the end it's not much of a thing, save for the Streisand effect. They didn't want him to be caught up in a bunch of bullshit so they swapped games. They didn't fire him. They didn't tell him to stay home. Yet to hear people rejoicing in their opportunity to laugh at fools you'd think they fired him because he wouldn't change his name. Stadler chalked this up to ESPN being overly PC, and thus the subject of ridicule, but in the end it's ESPN being overcautious. Just as troubling, but a different argument that doesn't lend itself to mockery, and thus an opportunity lost.

Fair points, but one thing you didn't mention, and I think this is also why it's kind of blown up, is that ESPN is already very much ridiculed for being very liberal and this move reenforces that belief on people.  They can latch onto this as proof of what they've been saying all along, right or wrong. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 24, 2017, 08:07:34 AM
Best point I've seen about it:
Quote
No matter that Robert Lee is Asian-American and his name has nothing to do with the Confederacy or slavery. It seems unreasonable, ignorant and downright ridiculous to associate his name in any way with the Confederate general. Still, nothing we've witnessed in Charlottesville, or since, has been reasonable or intelligent.

People are understandably latching onto the absurdity of it, but in the end it's not much of a thing, save for the Streisand effect. They didn't want him to be caught up in a bunch of bullshit so they swapped games. They didn't fire him. They didn't tell him to stay home. Yet to hear people rejoicing in their opportunity to laugh at fools you'd think they fired him because he wouldn't change his name. Stadler chalked this up to ESPN being overly PC, and thus the subject of ridicule, but in the end it's ESPN being overcautious. Just as troubling, but a different argument that doesn't lend itself to mockery, and thus an opportunity lost.

Yeah, but you seem to suggest I picked that route for the mockery factor, and that's not really accurate.   I put the onus on ESPN because it was in their court to do the right thing.  Now, a caveat:  if Robert Lee came to his supervisor and said "look, my name was "Li" when I came over, but the fucktards at immigration changed it to "Lee" and now I'm scared for my life", then that's one thing (and this article seems to reinforce that:  https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/08/23/espns-decision-to-pull-announcer-robert-lee-from-game-sparks-outcry.html).   But if it is a safety factor, why is it an issue?    It's not as if "Robert Lee" is "John Madden" or "Al Michaels" ("hey, why is Madden not doing the game? Is he sick?").    Networks change announcers all the time, and - as far as I know, and I watch a lot of sports - it's never an issue, unless the person is sick or dying or something, and then it's usually a mention in the booth ("Some of you will note that Stadler was supposed to be here; his hemorhhoids are acting up, and there's another kerfluffle on DTF about whether Mike Portnoy is thin-skinned or not and he has to defend him, so he is unable to join us.  Our thoughts and prayers are with him and his family.")

'Course, arguably, this guy has it worse:  https://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/ravens-broadcaster-gerry-sandusky-says-removal-of-robert-lee-shows-level-of-epidemic-insanity/mb9oxl2azacw1p3wkhsx448v0
I know you didn't choose your stance based on the ridicule factor, but I singled you out because you're the one person I'd have expected to be pointing out the chilling effect in play here. You cited PCism, when what we seem to be seeing is actually the fear of PCism and the accompanying overreaction. You and I are the two people I've consistently seen raising that concern over the last few years.

It strikes me that pretty much everybody has chosen the wrong side of this thing, and it's mostly because ragging on excessive sensitivity is a nifty bandwagon to jump on.
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: El Barto on August 24, 2017, 08:15:11 AM
'Course, arguably, this guy has it worse:  https://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/ravens-broadcaster-gerry-sandusky-says-removal-of-robert-lee-shows-level-of-epidemic-insanity/mb9oxl2azacw1p3wkhsx448v0

 :lol

Best point I've seen about it:
Quote
No matter that Robert Lee is Asian-American and his name has nothing to do with the Confederacy or slavery. It seems unreasonable, ignorant and downright ridiculous to associate his name in any way with the Confederate general. Still, nothing we've witnessed in Charlottesville, or since, has been reasonable or intelligent.

People are understandably latching onto the absurdity of it, but in the end it's not much of a thing, save for the Streisand effect. They didn't want him to be caught up in a bunch of bullshit so they swapped games. They didn't fire him. They didn't tell him to stay home. Yet to hear people rejoicing in their opportunity to laugh at fools you'd think they fired him because he wouldn't change his name. Stadler chalked this up to ESPN being overly PC, and thus the subject of ridicule, but in the end it's ESPN being overcautious. Just as troubling, but a different argument that doesn't lend itself to mockery, and thus an opportunity lost.

Fair points, but one thing you didn't mention, and I think this is also why it's kind of blown up, is that ESPN is already very much ridiculed for being very liberal and this move reenforces that belief on people.  They can latch onto this as proof of what they've been saying all along, right or wrong.
I don't watch ESPN so I couldn't tell you if that's the case or not. What I can tell you is that I put zero stock in the liberal/conservative labels applied by the masses. None whatsoever. There are posters here would say that Mitch McConnell is bleeding heart. I can cite examples of Comrade Obama being far too conservative for my tastes. Then you factor in the tendency to construe common business sense with overt liberalism, as with the "mainstream media." ESPN doesn't want to lose advertising revenue by taking a stand against CK. Obviously they hate America! The same faulty logic applied to Trump by so many on the left.

In any case, ESPN's political leaning, if there even is one, has no bearing on my point. They pitched up a softball to the anti-PC crowd which reacted by yelling that it throws like a girl and calling it a fairy. 
Title: Re: Racial tension ramping up....
Post by: Stadler on August 24, 2017, 09:05:05 AM
In any case, ESPN's political leaning, if there even is one, has no bearing on my point. They pitched up a softball to the anti-PC crowd which reacted by yelling that it throws like a girl and calling it a fairy.

HAHA, this is legendary.  :)