DreamTheaterForums.org Dream Theater Fan Site
Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: phospheneSOI on April 18, 2017, 02:44:37 PM
-
I write this because I hope someone in the band or management actually keeps an eye on here from time to time...
The reason my friend just text me saying your Birmingham gig has lots of empty seats tonight - and why there are still lots of tickets left for the gig in Cardiff on Saturday that I'd like to go to - is because your tickets are too expensive.
5 years ago - only 5 - your tickets were £25 (including booking fee) for my nearest show. Now a middling is £50.50 (£85 for a top tier!)
I have 4 friends who would have enjoyed to go to your show on Saturday - but we all agreed it's just too much. We agreed that £30 including booking fees etc and we would have been there. However, even though your cheap seats are only about £10 more than that, it crosses the threshold into expensive... there's a line and your prices just cross it.
I know it's not necessarily your fault. I know overheads are crazy. BUT - honestly - the band have basically lost out on a potential £150 worth of ticket sales and a lot more full seats...
Surely - financially in the long term - it would make more sense to bring your prices down... at least for the cheap and middling seats?
I don't know if anyone worthwhile will see this... but I am absoluely convinced that's why the turnout is down... purely based on the fact myself and my 4 friends are huge fans of DT and simply can't justify paying those sort of prices when we've already seen the band several times (I only paid £30 with fees to see them cover Dark Side of the Moon sat in the 4th row in 2010!)
It makes me sad to hear you're playing to dwindling crowds... but trust me, make it financially work somehow that you don't charge as much and people will come back.
-
From what I understand, DT themselves don't make the price. DT's tour manager sells the concert - it's up to the promoters who buy the concert to charge whatever they see fit to make a profit. Sure if their concert costs less the promoter need to pay less as well, but it's not DT themselves who decide the ticket price.
-
I actually have it on good authority that the price increases are largely due to the large amounts of salmon required in Petrucci's rider.
-
It's been 3 years since I've been to a DT show and it's not because of ticket prices.
-
For me it's definitely true. I would gladly go to/have gone to a DT concert if the prices were more reasonable, for the money I'd have to pay to see them I can see about 3 shows of bands I like just as much or even more.
-
I've noticed a price increase for DT in the NYC area over the years. I also read recently that concert tickets in general are all going up, mostly to cover the costs of pirated music.
Found this interesting read https://www.thefader.com/2017/01/05/concert-tickets-expensive-rihanna-beyonce-adele-drake (https://www.thefader.com/2017/01/05/concert-tickets-expensive-rihanna-beyonce-adele-drake) which focuses mostly on pop live acts, but I think this can be extrapolated to all live music:
In North America, average ticket prices overall increased by 20% between 2010 and 2015. According to trade publication Pollstar’s end of year report in 2015, the price of tickets to live music hit an all-time high that year, with an average cost of $74.25.
-
Yes, ticket prices are more expensive for most acts, in most countries.
Just pay the money and go see them, if you really want to see them. The alternative is, well, NOT seeing them.
-
It's just sad... I hate the idea of them playing to half empty venues.
And to think if there tickets were a little cheaper they would have banked £150 off me and my mates and filled some seats.
Can anyone answer me this?
I understand costs going up across the board and it's not exclusive to DT.... I understand how crazy overheads can be and piracy etc. BUT... I'm seeing Snarky Puppy in the same city... a band with about 10 members... and tickets were £26 with booking fees!?
How is it possible!? How're they doing that when DT's average price is £50. I can't get my head around it.
-
Yes, ticket prices are more expensive for most acts, in most countries.
Just pay the money and go see them, if you really want to see them. The alternative is, well, NOT seeing them.
This is my whole point dude... me and my crew have deiced NOT to see them. And now I've heard off another friend that tonight's show he's at is very empty...
it's just a shame, that's all. I get that promoters set the prices... but what I'm saying is they're not being very clever.
Lower your prices = more people come = more money in the long run.
-
The ticket prices is mostly out of the hands of the artist though. It would be hard to pin this on DT themselves or say DT has an abilitiy to fix it, they may, but it's not likely.
I do agree with the general premise that there needs to be a better balance in terms of what the actual value of the tickets are, but it's not always a simple science.
For example, I noticed for the Def Leppard & Poison concert this past weekend, it sold very well, but there was one section dead center middle tier that was empty. That one section was priced wrong IMO. These things happen. It sucks for the fan who didn't get to experience the show due to this, but that's the way that concert worked out.
Also, if the shows are not selling well, I would check secondary markets. Typically poorly sold shows will have under face value tickets on sale second hand.
-
Well, I love Snarky Puppy, but they aren't as big a name (to the general populace) as DT is, so I'm not surprised in the least that tickets are more expensive for DT.
And the number of people in the band have nothing to do with it. The number of people in the CREW may have something to do with it, and so does stage production, and DT will have Snarky Puppy beat on both of those.
But I don't get how you can say what a shame it is that the place isn't filled when you are purposely choosing NOT TO GO.
If you really can't afford it, that's one thing. I've missed plenty of shows that I couldn't actually afford. But if it's a show you want to see, and you are ABLE to afford it and choose not to because you arbitrarily decided the price is too high... I just don't get it.
*shrugs*
-
50 bucks for DT ticket is actually a good price.
-
All fair point guys, but something is going seriously wrong when 5 years ago you had to scramble to get good seats in the UK and now - 4 days before my nearest show - there are lots of seats in both the second and third row left.
I don't think it's to do with the Astonishing or no-Portnoy either... fans know they're playing I&W and ACOS. I genuinely think it's sad that DT are playing ACOS and there are a lot of seats left in the the front rows.
£50 for King Crimson in the same city last year. Sold out in days.
£85 for a top tier DT ticket. £50 standard seat. Loads left.
Whoever s setting the prices needs to have a serious word with themselves.
-
I&W and ACOS are not enough to get people through the doors these days. The latest work has to be really popular. 5 years ago was a different story.
-
I go to a lot of concerts, but I've skipped DT the last several tours, and it's got nothing to do with price. It moreso has to do with lack of enthusiasm for the newer material, and previous mixed experiences where the sound was just not up to par (too loud, muddy, ect., - could be DT's fault, or the venue). Another point is, I've seen DT 3 times now, and I'd have to be a real super fan to see any band more times than that. There are just so many new things to check out. I wish I had more time and money for concerts.
-
50 bucks for DT ticket is actually a good price.
Just pointing out the maybe obvious: $ =/= £
-
65 dollars ain't bad either.
-
There's 2 sides to this that for me, it's not about the money. It cost more for the stage production. I love the look of their stages lately.
But with more money for the tickets we've lost the spontaneity of the changing live set.
People were willing to see multiple shows to see the different set lists but now, most do not see them more than once.
-
My comment would be that lately, I feel DT live is like watching a tape. MP I think was aware of the danger of them coming across that way, and did all these antics, covers, setlist changes etc to counteract that. All that is gone, and with their shows to click, it feels like a reel running at precise timing.
-
From what I understand, DT themselves don't make the price. DT's tour manager sells the concert - it's up to the promoters who buy the concert to charge whatever they see fit to make a profit. Sure if their concert costs less the promoter need to pay less as well, but it's not DT themselves who decide the ticket price.
I don't believe this for a second. When you are successful as DT has been, you can have a major say in how much you charge for tickets.
-
I guess they (the venue or the band management) have to figure out what price they make the most at in the long run... More people at less per ticket, or fewer people at more per ticket....
But I would definitely add the reason I wouldn't see them twice in one leg is if they are doing static setlists. Change 4 songs and I'm there! That could a pretty big deal for a place like Southern California where they played twice on The Astonishing tour and then twice again later the same year/tour. I would have been at this show:
(https://i64.tinypic.com/jkf0wn.png)
It's a shame to see that since The Astonishing was such a spectacular show!!!! Just can't afford to see it twice.
-
I don't think I've paid less than $150 for a DT ticket in the last 15 years, maybe once I got lucky with a week before the show ticketmaster re-release. Now granted I buy re-sale usually and get front 5 rows, and even a few Meet and Greets. That all being said, just about every other concert I want to go to is more expensive than DT for comparable seats.
For younger folks who may not have as much disposable income, I can appreciate the problem. Again though, in the grand scheme of things from what I've noticed, DT isn't what I would consider overpriced compared to acts the same size (popularity wise) as them.
-
Dear Phosphene,
Save your money for Music Meant to Be Heard.
Love,
Kevin
-
From what I understand, DT themselves don't make the price. DT's tour manager sells the concert - it's up to the promoters who buy the concert to charge whatever they see fit to make a profit. Sure if their concert costs less the promoter need to pay less as well, but it's not DT themselves who decide the ticket price.
I don't believe this for a second. When you are successful as DT has been, you can have a major say in how much you charge for tickets.
Well, whether you believe it or not, that isn't really how concert booking works. It just isn't. Success doesn't really play into it (unless you are a MAJOR player that can sell out arenas, perhaps, which DT are nowhere near).
-
They don't have a direct say, but since they are obviously the creators of the content, they have an implicit influence on the price of their product. That factors in the success of their albums, the elaborateness of the show etc etc.
It's a very similar arrangement to when a retailer stocks somebody's product. There might be a MSRP by the manufacturer, but it's up to the retailer to slap just enough markup on it to make the maximum profit.
-
I can completely understand why you would think it would work like that. That makes sense in almost every setting. And even for entertainment booking, when you are small enough like your old band or mine, you often have more direct negotiations. But the industry as a whole just doesn't work like that, even though that is the model for just about everything else.
-
I'm actually not disagreeing with you. I'm mostly saying that DT's influence on ticket prices is more through an indirect effect of creating a product that promoters consider worth buying for their venue.
-
For younger folks who may not have as much disposable income, I can appreciate the problem. Again though, in the grand scheme of things from what I've noticed, DT isn't what I would consider overpriced compared to acts the same size (popularity wise) as them.
And there's a thing called poverty too.. I'm almost sure that's a thing, although I could've heard it wrong.. ;)
-
Eh.
https://www.withguitars.com/dream-theater-2012-uk-dates/
Quote: "Tickets onsale now, priced £45 and £32.50"
Currently; for the UK dates, i see prices from £33.50 to £86.25. (usually three tiers of prices). This isnt the huge price hike you're making it out to be.
And as many have already stated: the band doesnt set the prices, the promoters do. The band sets a price for what it costs to hire them, and then the promoter has to cover hiring the venue (including the staff and security there), hiring the equipment DT needs, and local workers to do the stage rigging before and after the show. This, along with whatever profits the promoters want to make or whatever profit margins the promoters want to have in addition to "breaking even" is what sets the final ticket prices. Add into the fact that bands no longer make much money off of music sales, they have to make their money from SOMEWHERE.
Amazingly enough, things have gotten more expensive over the past 5 years, cause people want a pay rise.
-
A lot of good conversation in this thread... To me ticket prices for concerts always simply come down to how much an individual likes the band/artist/act. $50 to see DT might seem like way to much to one person, while another might see it as a steal.
Also - 5 years is a long time, especially when you are talking about the music industry. A LOT has changed in those 5 years, and tickets prices have gone up across the board.
-
I wonder how much of it stems from the absence of MP, not just as a drummer, but as a frontman.
I'd have to be a really huge fan of a band to go back and see them a 2nd or 3rd time. In Dream Theater's case, to fill the type of venues they play, they are likely asking fans who have already seen them play 3-5 times or more to come out for yet another show.
As stale as things were getting toward the end of MP's involvement, I suspect that having someone like him constantly doing interviews, posting to social media, throwing freebies and selling bonus stuff, and interacting with the fans online and in person goes a long way in maintaining the type of fan that'll go back and see the same band for a 5th or 6th time. Without someone like MP steadily stoking the flames of the hardcore fans, I really do feel like it's dying out, even if the music has improved somewhat.
-
I wonder how much of it stems from the absence of MP, not just as a drummer, but as a frontman.
I'd have to be a really huge fan of a band to go back and see them a 2nd or 3rd time. In Dream Theater's case, to fill the type of venues they play, they are likely asking fans who have already seen them play 3-5 times or more to come out for yet another show.
As stale as things were getting toward the end of MP's involvement, I suspect that having someone like him constantly doing interviews, posting to social media, throwing freebies and selling bonus stuff, and interacting with the fans online and in person goes a long way in maintaining the type of fan that'll go back and see the same band for a 5th or 6th time. Without someone like MP steadily stoking the flames of the hardcore fans, I really do feel like it's dying out, even if the music has improved somewhat.
Maybe I'm missing something, so please fill me in if I am... But I thought the only tour leg that hasn't sold well since MP left was the second NA run for TA, correct? I think the reasons for that leg not doing well are obvious and don't have anything to do with MP. I was under the impression all their other tours since MP left sold just fine. Remember, they didn't pack every single venue full every time when MP was in the band either.
-
Yeah, cause we've had NO interviews or behind the scenes stuff the past year and a half at all...
Oh wait...
The DT World ALONE has had (in order of publication):
-1 interview with Jordan
-1 interview with Jordan and JP
-(1 interview with MP)
-1 interview with Jordan again
-1 interview with Jordan about the LMR
-1 e-mail interview with the entire band
-1 video with Keith and Jordan
-1 video with JP and Maddi
-1 video with Mike and Eric
-1 interview with Mike
-1 interview with James
-1 interview with JP and JMX
-1 video showing some behind the scenes stuff
-(1 interview with MP)
Thats JUST what WE have done. And theres been a million other interviews and guitar stuff and keyboard stuff posted on youtube and facebook... We have had MUCH more information out there this past year than we've had in long time.
-
I wonder how much of it stems from the absence of MP, not just as a drummer, but as a frontman.
I'd have to be a really huge fan of a band to go back and see them a 2nd or 3rd time. In Dream Theater's case, to fill the type of venues they play, they are likely asking fans who have already seen them play 3-5 times or more to come out for yet another show.
As stale as things were getting toward the end of MP's involvement, I suspect that having someone like him constantly doing interviews, posting to social media, throwing freebies and selling bonus stuff, and interacting with the fans online and in person goes a long way in maintaining the type of fan that'll go back and see the same band for a 5th or 6th time. Without someone like MP steadily stoking the flames of the hardcore fans, I really do feel like it's dying out, even if the music has improved somewhat.
Maybe I'm missing something, so please fill me in if I am... But I thought the only tour leg that hasn't sold well since MP left was the second NA run for TA, correct? I think the reasons for that leg not doing well are obvious and don't have anything to do with MP. I was under the impression all their other tours since MP left sold just fine. Remember, they didn't pack every single venue full every time when MP was in the band either.
From my experience, the DT12 tour was a huge hit with three packed concerts in three different states that I attended. All priced above $50 a ticket. I think they averaged $75 a pop.
-
Speaking for myself, I can honestly say that DT has not been the same for me since September 2010. Mangini is a monster drummer and can play the sh*t out of just about anything. However, neither he nor anyone else left in the band has the presence MP had. Anc, I just haven't had the same enthusiasm for the material or the shows since then. Granted, a lot of that has to do with me being middle-aged, married with a nine-year-old and just not having the time I once had to dedicate to music. And, TA (both album and tour) killed a lot of the enthusiasm I still had left. But DT post-MP just doesn't have the same spark. It has become somewhat robotic (IMO). The first two albums they did were fine but, to me, don't hold a candle to the MP-era material. And, as has already been mentioned, the (fairly) static setlists make it a little less exciting concert-wise.
That being said, I can't wait for an announcement of an IWaB US tour. Having come aboard the DT train when I&W first came out, to have a tour where they're focusing on the first material I discovered and loved from them is awesome.
I really hope the next album has a little more life.
-
Yeah, cause we've had NO interviews or behind the scenes stuff the past year and a half at all...
Oh wait...
The DT World ALONE has had (in order of publication):
-1 interview with Jordan
-1 interview with Jordan and JP
-(1 interview with MP)
-1 interview with Jordan again
-1 interview with Jordan about the LMR
-1 e-mail interview with the entire band
-1 video with Keith and Jordan
-1 video with JP and Maddi
-1 video with Mike and Eric
-1 interview with Mike
-1 interview with James
-1 interview with JP and JMX
-1 video showing some behind the scenes stuff
-(1 interview with MP)
Thats JUST what WE have done. And theres been a million other interviews and guitar stuff and keyboard stuff posted on youtube and facebook... We have had MUCH more information out there this past year than we've had in long time.
I didn't say there were "no interviews" at all, so you can spare me the phony outrage reaction. Of course, the band still do interviews, and I don't present some objective truth that they don't. But I do present to you my subjective experience that it ain't the same. Even if I wanted to work for it, I don't think I could begin to list exhaustively all the things that MP did above and beyond to make being a fan feel special. No amount of the other guys stepping up has been able to replace the face of the band that Portnoy presented. So, take that for whatever it's worth to you, but I know that I'm not alone regarding the way I feel.
-
i know better than most just exactly what MP meant with regards to fan interaction - but I absolutely will call your bullshit. What hasn't dt done for the fans since mp left? The ONLY factor that has changed is the set list factor - and to be fair - for the most part that only counts for a very small minority as most people only attend one gig at a tour.
It pretty much boils down to personality - JR has always been just as active and inclusive with fans as MP but seems like he, for some reason, does not count. So you prefer mps personality. Which is fine. But don't act like something isn't available to you anymore. In fact we make more stuff and do more stuff locally with the band (q&a and aftershow stuff) than ever before. The fan club has a bigger reach and more followers than EVER in the history of the band. And we have more access to the entire band than ever before. ive been doing this for 17 years, and I do not agree that dt has lost contact with its fan base. It's just different personalities.
-
It pretty much boils down to personality - JR has always been just as active and inclusive with fans as MP but seems like he, for some reason, does not count.
That's true - just the other day I opened Facebook and randomly I stumbled upon a Jordan live stream when he was playing an improv piece before leaving for the European tour. Just an example of how he keeps posting treats here and there.
-
Yea, but I don't think anyone has the live connection with that fans that MP did. I agree that their live shows have taken a hit in terms of fan interaction. MP was very "in your face" and no one else in the band currently is like that. JR wouldn't even come close to the edge of the stage last time I saw them in the front row. JP did for a split second, everyone else acted like the audience wasn't there. I'm not really complaining, that's the way the guys are and have been, but MP was the only one different in that regard.
-
Noxon, I agree completely with you as a matter of objective fact. But what I think you may be discounting too much is the power of perception. Whether it is right or not, I think it is objectively true that a large number of fans still feel like there is an important component missing since MP's departure. Whether that is right or wrong, and whether it is a majority or minority of fans isn't important. What is important, IMO, is acknowledging that there is still, and probably always will be, a significant portion of the fan base that feels this way. The band is doing an okay job of addressing this on their own, at least in terms of listing to guys like you and I when we bring things to their attention. And I think the job you guys are doing is outstanding. But that perception still exists, and I think it warrants acknowledging and continuing to work hard to try to find ways to connect with the fans.
-
I wouldn't get too hung up over the amount of interviews or Facebook posts. What matters to people who think about going to a show is the show itself. Will they see exactly the same songs as 2 months ago? Will there be something unique about their experience? Will there be a lot of energy coming from the stage? Those are all aspects that took a hit with MP's departure, and as bosk says, that's how people perceive it, and that in its own right needs to be acknowledged.
-
There have been interviews, there have been moments, but I think the band feels more distant since Portnoy left.
-
i know better than most just exactly what MP meant with regards to fan interaction - but I absolutely will call your bullshit. What hasn't dt done for the fans since mp left? The ONLY factor that has changed is the set list factor - and to be fair - for the most part that only counts for a very small minority as most people only attend one gig at a tour.
It pretty much boils down to personality - JR has always been just as active and inclusive with fans as MP but seems like he, for some reason, does not count. So you prefer mps personality. Which is fine. But don't act like something isn't available to you anymore. In fact we make more stuff and do more stuff locally with the band (q&a and aftershow stuff) than ever before. The fan club has a bigger reach and more followers than EVER in the history of the band. And we have more access to the entire band than ever before. ive been doing this for 17 years, and I do not agree that dt has lost contact with its fan base. It's just different personalities.
Yeah, I'm really not interested in getting into a debate about who did what compared to what Mike did, or how many fans feel the way I tend to vs. how many feel like things are better than ever. That's not the point here. I'm just honestly reporting my view, and sure, there may be things I'm overlooking. I'll try and pay greater attention to the things that, for instance, the fanclub are doing (which I've honestly never really paid much attention to). That said, your view as liaison to band gives you a unique perspective, but I wouldn't call you out as "bullshitting" just because maybe you happen to be more invested in seeing things positively than I am. How does trying to discredit people who feel a different way help their perception of the band?
If pressed, though, one specific thing that I do miss is the MP.com forum interaction and, perhaps moreso, his Twitter interaction. I know Twitter isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I really enjoyed MP's constant presence. Another thing is the way MP was able to network with and weave himself and DT into the modern prog scenes of the day - whether it be Fates and QR early on, PT and Spocks in the early 00s, BtBAM and Opeth in the mid-00s, and so on. It's not just that Mike liked all this music - it's that Mike kept an ear close enough to the fanbase to know what they liked, what bands they were talking about on the forums and social media, and so on. Mike's influence on fans and the fan influence on Mike seems to have gone both ways. Not sure how that all plays into keeping a band feeling fresh to longtime fans, and to be fair, I'm not sure there are enough people like me that DT necessarily SHOULD feel they need to do something different. But I do know that I'm not alone.
-
I'll admit that JP has become way more visible in the time since MP's departure. And, I totally give him credit for that. The only negative I can find with this is that (once again, IMO) JP is boring. Listening to him speak is like listening to Derek Jeter speak. He may or may not say a lot. But, in reality, he says nothing. There's a reason why MP was the mouthpiece all those years. He had energy and said interesting things. I don't want this to devolve into a bigger MP vs. DT discussion than it already has. So, I'm gonna stop.
-
You know, I hear complaints about the live show, and I guess I got an anomaly, because back in December at the last show of The Astonishing, the band was on fire and super animated and responsive to the crowd. I had absolutely NO complaints about their live performance whatsoever.
Sorry I got the best show, guys.
-
I don't know if the attendance is down globally because I just don't pay that close attention any more. I guess if there are fewer people
coming and the trend line is moving slowly down, the band will have to make some adjustments.
With a band like DT, full of top notch musicians playing complicated music that requires being very 'in-the-moment' it's sometimes
hard to have a stage show that is entertaining to the vast majority. This is debatable and that is fine but with MP gone I think they
lost the cool, rock star stage presence that breeds life and energy into the show. And unfortunately 'coolness' is something you
either have or you don't. He was always back there flipping or throwing sticks, pointing at people in the audience he recognized,
standing up and down and connecting with the crowd. I think the other guys have tried to do the best they can but for whatever
reason they just don't have that cool factor and it comes off as performing prog-metal surgery. Clinical perfection but not too
fun to watch.
-
I'll admit that JP has become way more visible in the time since MP's departure. And, I totally give him credit for that. The only negative I can find with this is that (once again, IMO) JP is boring. Listening to him speak is like listening to Derek Jeter speak. He may or may not say a lot. But, in reality, he says nothing. There's a reason why MP was the mouthpiece all those years. He had energy and said interesting things. I don't want this to devolve into a bigger MP vs. DT discussion than it already has. So, I'm gonna stop.
JP is a much calmer, more chill person than MP, but I don't think I have ever found him to be boring...
You know, I hear complaints about the live show, and I guess I got an anomaly, because back in December at the last show of The Astonishing, the band was on fire and super animated and responsive to the crowd. I had absolutely NO complaints about their live performance whatsoever.
Sorry I got the best show, guys.
I get the feeling some of the "they lack energy" comments (not specifically from people in this thread, but overall) are people judging things from YouTube. I've been to 3 DT shows with MM in the band and they were animated, responsive, enthusiastic, etc... each time. Great shows.
-
You know, I hear complaints about the live show, and I guess I got an anomaly, because back in December at the last show of The Astonishing, the band was on fire and super animated and responsive to the crowd. I had absolutely NO complaints about their live performance whatsoever.
Sorry I got the best show, guys.
Prior to last year's TA show in NJ, I've never complained about a DT live performance. I went into the show knowing it was only going to be TA (which I find to be their worst album, by far) in its entirety. So, I can't say I didn't know. I hoped experiencing the album live would have improved my opinion of it. Unfortunately, it did not. Had I been to one of the last shows of the tour where they threw in 2-3 old songs at the end, I would've been infinitely happier with the concert. That's why I can't wait for the IWaB tour to hit the states. IaW AND ACoS? Count me in!
-
I've seen Dream Theater 4 or 5 times after MP left and none of the shows have felt boring. In fact, I think the band was very energetic on all of the shows, including The Astonishing live show that I attended. Both ADTOE shows that I attended were sold out. Both Astonishing shows that I went to were about 75-85% full.
While Dream Theater might have a slight input on ticket prices, is not their decision. DT asks for certain amount of money, promoter pays it, promoter sets ticket prices. The ticket pricing itself involves a lot of factors such as venue rental fee, crew, if other bands are playing in the same city, etc...If promoter thinks the DT Images and Words tour warrants a more expensive ticket compared to The Astonishing, then that's his/her decision. It is more than likely that DT asked for more money during The Astonishing just because they had more screens and equipment. The stage setup for Images seems to have a lot less equipment. It all comes down to supply and demand. If you can't attend, then I would recommend saving up more money. I did that in my early years following the band. I had to travel to Phoenix, AZ from El Paso, TX (6 hr drive) in order to see them several times. I just planned ahead, did a bit of side work, earned a bit more money, and rock the shit out afterwards :metal .
-
Higher ticket prices are designed by the band intentionally. They're getting up there in age and the last thing they need is to throw a hip trying to strike a rock 'n roll pose for a large audience of enthusiastic, young, poor, fans. This way, the audience will be more their age and income level which is easier to relate to. Plus, they get no grief from the wife about young groupies in the front row screaming and pulling their hair out. Instead, the front row is filled with pot bellied men, with full wallets, who don't have any hair left to pull out. More money for merch, too.
It's actually quite clever when you think about it.
-
JP is a much calmer, more chill person than MP, but I don't think I have ever found him to be boring...
I get the feeling some of the "they lack energy" comments (not specifically from people in this thread, but overall) are people judging things from YouTube. I've been to 3 DT shows with MM in the band and they were animated, responsive, enthusiastic, etc... each time. Great shows.
Yup, all of this.. Besides: you can't compare MP with just one of the guys... like, say, let's compare him with Myung then.. Like with the live presence, the album production and the fan interaction, if you can have at least one guy who did that now that MP's isn't there to do it, that's about it.. And you got those guys: JP is the producer, JR the one being more active online and JLB is the one doing interesting interviews -because, although I don't think JP is boring at all, his interviews doesn't tell you much or 'entertaint' you (even when the point of an interview is not that, I know)-.... As for the "frontman" thing, now's obviously James, as he should've been right from the start, because.....
MP was very "in your face" and no one else in the band currently is like that.
I don't get how that would be a thing to miss.. ???
They feel better than ever now on stage, or at least that's what I and a lot of ppl see of them, besides the fact that they've said it a couple of times.. My first show was in 2010; I was at JP's side and the whole show it felt like he wasn't even there.. MP himself didn't seem to be enjoying the moment, just doing his regular clowning stuff, but like it was something he supposed to do more than something spontaneous or vivid.. Every show since then has been amazing -not that that first one wasn't regarding the live performance- in every aspect, and not only when they had to deliver an energy performance full of powah like they did in 2012 because of the DVD, but in the following shows too..
Having said that, I understand each one lives it in a different way, and has much to do with the context in which one goes to the concerts.. For instance, in southamerica they tend to give a more "transpiring" presentation than in other places due to what the audience give to them in the first place...
-
MP was very "in your face" and no one else in the band currently is like that.
I don't get how that would be a thing to miss.. ???
To each their own, I just prefer to have the band I am paying to see acknowledge the crowd's presence. It was only that one concert (TA in NJ last fall) that gave me that impression. I've seen them 14 times now and I've enjoyed every experience so I'm not trying to be hard on the band, just being honest with my feelings. Some people obviously don't care about that interaction, but I personally like that in a live setting, makes you feel apart of the show.
-
Higher ticket prices are designed by the band intentionally. They're getting up there in age and the last thing they need is to throw a hip trying to strike a rock 'n roll pose for a large audience of enthusiastic, young, poor, fans. This way, the audience will be more their age and income level which is easier to relate to. Plus, they get no grief from the wife about young groupies in the front row screaming and pulling their hair out. Instead, the front row is filled with pot bellied men, with full wallets, who don't have any hair left to pull out. More money for merch, too.
It's actually quite clever when you think about it.
You forgot to add that it's also quite prejudiced and discriminatory..
To each their own, I just prefer to have the band I am paying to see acknowledge the crowd's presence. It was only that one concert (TA in NJ last fall) that gave me that impression. I've seen them 14 times now and I've enjoyed every experience so I'm not trying to be hard on the band, just being honest with my feelings. Some people obviously don't care about that interaction, but I personally like that in a live setting, makes you feel apart of the show.
Fair enough.. I guess I've never thought of it.. I happen to just want to go and see them playing; never cared about what the artists say in between the songs or at the end of the show..
-
It's not even about talking, it's just about a general interaction. Eye contact, moving close to the fans at the edge of the stage, getting people to clap or chant, pointing at the person who is going nuts. It could be a lot of things. MP was very good at that. I actually think MM is pretty decent as well for a drummer, it's not typically the drummer who gets the crowd going, but I think MM is actually above average in this regards. He definitely tries to make contact with the crowd and show off at certain spots. But I personally find that to be the biggest thing lacking since MP left because no one else in the band has made up for it.
-
You know, I hear complaints about the live show, and I guess I got an anomaly, because back in December at the last show of The Astonishing, the band was on fire and super animated and responsive to the crowd. I had absolutely NO complaints about their live performance whatsoever.
Sorry I got the best show, guys.
Prior to last year's TA show in NJ, I've never complained about a DT live performance. I went into the show knowing it was only going to be TA (which I find to be their worst album, by far) in its entirety. So, I can't say I didn't know. I hoped experiencing the album live would have improved my opinion of it. Unfortunately, it did not. Had I been to one of the last shows of the tour where they threw in 2-3 old songs at the end, I would've been infinitely happier with the concert. That's why I can't wait for the IWaB tour to hit the states. IaW AND ACoS? Count me in!
Didn't really matter about the encore songs. I was glad to get them, of course, and they definitely rocked my face, but the band was awesome throughout the entire show.
-
This is just the way the market, and music industry as a whole, has gone.
In terms of attendances Italy surely is an exception, but I can tell you that all post MP era shows I've attended (but one) were either sold out or very close to be. And for me personally nowhere less exciting than those I've attended previously (not even TA one)
Which is something I can't say, for example, about the PN09 tour.
But then again, numbers are valid only if put into context.
DT has dropped in popularity? Yes, as it has metal music in general
DT concerts are less attended? Yes, again, in proportion to how concerts (and this kind of music) has gone lately
Is popularity determined to how much a band speaks to its public?
Sometimes, and of course DT is a good example of that, but in 2017 it's not about how many things you do, but how these things are done.
In all honesty, and I don't know if you can blame someone for that, but the only thing I really feel like it has changed the way I look at them is that somehow they've really regress in terms of maturity: they used to be cool, to write very interesting arrangements, to write deep lyrics (e.g. Voices) ecc...
And then they did SC and never fully recover from that.
I like what they've done since MP has departed, I really do (way more than last 2 MP era albums) but do I fell as engaged as I use to be until SDOIT? Not really.
-
You know, I hear complaints about the live show, and I guess I got an anomaly, because back in December at the last show of The Astonishing, the band was on fire and super animated and responsive to the crowd. I had absolutely NO complaints about their live performance whatsoever.
Sorry I got the best show, guys.
Prior to last year's TA show in NJ, I've never complained about a DT live performance. I went into the show knowing it was only going to be TA (which I find to be their worst album, by far) in its entirety. So, I can't say I didn't know. I hoped experiencing the album live would have improved my opinion of it. Unfortunately, it did not. Had I been to one of the last shows of the tour where they threw in 2-3 old songs at the end, I would've been infinitely happier with the concert. That's why I can't wait for the IWaB tour to hit the states. IaW AND ACoS? Count me in!
Didn't really matter about the encore songs. I was glad to get them, of course, and they definitely rocked my face, but the band was awesome throughout the entire show.
I know I've mentioned this a couple of times elsewhere, but I'll say it again. I was able to see them twice on the TA tour--once playing the entire thing, and then again with the slightly shortened TA and the encore songs. They were BOTH amazing shows, and I am thankful to have seen them both.
-
Higher ticket prices are designed by the band intentionally. They're getting up there in age and the last thing they need is to throw a hip trying to strike a rock 'n roll pose for a large audience of enthusiastic, young, poor, fans. This way, the audience will be more their age and income level which is easier to relate to. Plus, they get no grief from the wife about young groupies in the front row screaming and pulling their hair out. Instead, the front row is filled with pot bellied men, with full wallets, who don't have any hair left to pull out. More money for merch, too.
It's actually quite clever when you think about it.
You forgot to add that it's also quite prejudiced and discriminatory..
Apperantly, what I really forgot was the green font color. :lol
-
QUIT BEING AN ASSHOLE, PODAAR!
-
(https://i.giphy.com/K0dM34TGaMkcE.gif)
-
I will add The Astonishing show I saw was PACKED and INCREDIBLE. I would not add a song or a change a second. And I actually also went in thinking it was my least favorite DT album.
I thought it was the best DT concert I've seen.
-
I'm looking forward to the NA dates being announced, personally, I wouldn't hesitate to spend $50 to $75 bucks on a ticket to see the band perform I&W and ACOS.
-
I thought it was the best DT concert I've seen.
It's funny because I kind of gave some negative criticism specifically for the NJ TA show I went to, but it actually was probably my favorite DT concert out of the 14 I've been to. Performance was great and I was front row which I had never been before, I also really enjoy TA so it was great.
I'm looking forward to the NA dates being announced, personally, I wouldn't hesitate to spend $50 to $75 bucks on a ticket to see the band perform I&W and ACOS.
Definitely this. I think I'd put my limit closer to $200 to see my all time favorite album live.
-
I will be seeing them for the 2nd time this tour next week in Tilburg.
I would be a little disappointed if they play the exact same set as they did the first show (also Tilburg) but still be a happy fan.
Spend about € 60,-- for each show and the first one in february was totally worth it.
Yes, I think it's a lot of money but still nothing execeptional compared to other bands I'm seeing this year like Volbeat.
Guns 'n Roses was around € 100,-- and Eddie Vedder even more and those are prices I'm not willing to pay.
On the other hand Gojira and Haken were just € 25,-- :D
In the end prices for all sorts of entertainment are increasing. A ticket for my favorite soccer team is about € 40 for an average match. Even a cinema ticket is over € 10,--.
-
I will be seeing them for the 2nd time this tour next week in Tilburg.
I would be a little disappointed if they play the exact same set as they did the first show (also Tilburg) but still be a happy fan.
Prepare to be disappointed. The setlist is what it is.
-
I'm looking forward to the NA dates being announced, personally, I wouldn't hesitate to spend $50 to $75 bucks on a ticket to see the band perform I&W and ACOS.
Definitely this. I think I'd put my limit closer to $200 to see my all time favorite album live.
Oh yea, I'd definitely spend more than $50-75 to see this show. I'm just guessing that will probably be the price range for average-ish seats.
-
I will be seeing them for the 2nd time this tour next week in Tilburg.
I would be a little disappointed if they play the exact same set as they did the first show (also Tilburg) but still be a happy fan.
Prepare to be disappointed. The setlist is what it is.
I am checking with the band to see (1) if they are planning on making any changes to the set list, and (2) whether I can share the answer to question #1. I will let you all know if there is any information I can share one way or the other.
-
While Dream Theater might have a slight input on ticket prices, is not their decision. DT asks for certain amount of money, promoter pays it, promoter sets ticket prices. The ticket pricing itself involves a lot of factors such as venue rental fee, crew, if other bands are playing in the same city, etc...If promoter thinks the DT Images and Words tour warrants a more expensive ticket compared to The Astonishing, then that's his/her decision. It is more than likely that DT asked for more money during The Astonishing just because they had more screens and equipment. The stage setup for Images seems to have a lot less equipment. It all comes down to supply and demand. If you can't attend, then I would recommend saving up more money. I did that in my early years following the band. I had to travel to Phoenix, AZ from El Paso, TX (6 hr drive) in order to see them several times. I just planned ahead, did a bit of side work, earned a bit more money, and rock the shit out afterwards :metal .
This post is the best explanation as far as how concert ticket pricing works. As a fan, you either go because you want to or you stay home for any number of factors (price, distance, family priorities, scheduling conflicts, stagnant setlists, etc.). I've missed a lot of concerts that would have been so much fun to see because other things were more important at the time. Such is life.
-
I will be seeing them for the 2nd time this tour next week in Tilburg.
I would be a little disappointed if they play the exact same set as they did the first show (also Tilburg) but still be a happy fan.
Prepare to be disappointed. The setlist is what it is.
I am checking with the band to see (1) if they are planning on making any changes to the set list, and (2) whether I can share the answer to question #1. I will let you all know if there is any information I can share one way or the other.
According to setlist.fm last nights show was the same setlist from the first leg. Not sure if it's accurate or not though.
-
(https://i64.tinypic.com/jkf0wn.png)
This makes me sad. I remember seeing DT during one of their random stops in between the Iron Maiden tour in Summer 2010. It was the greatest show I could have wanted from DT. It was spontaneous, and even their jams were ridiculously tight. I had goosebumps the entire show. They had the entire place in the palm of their hand. I have seen them live since 2003 and this was by far the best show ever, in my opinion.
Then in 2012 I saw them again. The music was tight as ever, and I was really into ADTOE. But the spontaneity was gone. The crowd barely moved and I noticed I kept yawning and looking at the time. I figured it was me or something. But it seems that they've just lost their mojo. I'm not sure how they could fix that without seeming fake in a way.
-
Higher ticket prices are designed by the band intentionally. They're getting up there in age and the last thing they need is to throw a hip trying to strike a rock 'n roll pose for a large audience of enthusiastic, young, poor, fans. This way, the audience will be more their age and income level which is easier to relate to. Plus, they get no grief from the wife about young groupies in the front row screaming and pulling their hair out. Instead, the front row is filled with pot bellied men, with full wallets, who don't have any hair left to pull out. More money for merch, too.
It's actually quite clever when you think about it.
You say clever, I say depressing.
All of my friends and myself are well educated and talented, and none of us are earning over £20k a year... we're nearly 30.
-
https://youtu.be/DF5BEcahu2Q?t=384
Dear Dream Theater, you gotta bridge those 3 meters to the audience.
-
i don't think necessarily they have a choice of where to place stuff on the stage...
-
Lol wut? It's probably the single thing a musician gets asked about before the gig, where on stage he wants his equipment. I'm pretty sure they weren't told "sorry guys, you have to be at least 10 feet from the edge".
-
That reminds me of the Vancouver footage from Chaos in motion, I've always wondered why they sometimes place the equipment so far away from the end of the stage. It makes no sense to me. Hopefully someone has some insight and can clarify that.
-
https://youtu.be/DF5BEcahu2Q?t=384
Dear Dream Theater, you gotta bridge those 3 meters to the audience.
Totally agree, there is a lot of unnecessary space between the band and the fans and that only adds to the divide between the band and the fans (and the perception of there being a divide).
Also, I forgot to add this to my list earlier today, but they also refused to give out the set list at the last show I was at. I found that to be odd because that's usually a very much sought after piece of the live concert experience and they flat out refused to give them to anyone (the crew was quite rude about it too). Also the no phones/cameras policy of the last tour really hurts the fan experience of sharing your experience with others and a way to spread the music. I understand the reasons for that policy last tour, but just stating that I think things like that hurt the fan base, not help it even if some really enjoyed that rule.
-
Lol wut? It's probably the single thing a musician gets asked about before the gig, where on stage he wants his equipment. I'm pretty sure they weren't told "sorry guys, you have to be at least 10 feet from the edge".
That's a very odd shaped stage so I bet they have to be that far back because that's where the lighting rig is set up. Have we ever seen them that far back? I don't remember any time they were. Why would they all of the sudden have one show where they were back that far? Obviously it is beyond their control.
-
From what I understand, DT themselves don't make the price. DT's tour manager sells the concert - it's up to the promoters who buy the concert to charge whatever they see fit to make a profit. Sure if their concert costs less the promoter need to pay less as well, but it's not DT themselves who decide the ticket price.
I don't believe this for a second. When you are successful as DT has been, you can have a major say in how much you charge for tickets.
Of course DT has a major say on the ticket prices, they are the ones selling the concert to the promoters (I don't have the real numbers, but lets say that 5 years ago they (their manager) sold the show for $20000 the night, and now, 5 years later they are selling the same show for $100000 that will surely translate into a more expensive ticket, so yeah, DT has a major say in the ticket prices.
-
What hasn't dt done for the fans since mp left?
Rotating setlist, official bootleg releases (through Ytsejam Records and the Fan clubs), surprises every single Christmas morning, info about the recording process of new material to name a few
-
Lol wut? It's probably the single thing a musician gets asked about before the gig, where on stage he wants his equipment. I'm pretty sure they weren't told "sorry guys, you have to be at least 10 feet from the edge".
That's a very odd shaped stage so I bet they have to be that far back because that's where the lighting rig is set up. Have we ever seen them that far back? I don't remember any time they were. Why would they all of the sudden have one show where they were back that far? Obviously it is beyond their control.
How does this even make sense? Birmingham has a venue that can't light the front half of the stage?
Not only that, but the spotlights are always coming from the back. There's zero reason for any of them to stay in the back the whole time, even if their equipment is back there.
-
??? What, you've never heard the famous song, "The Strange Lights of Birmingham?" That's a classic, man!
-
That stage was so too big (and looked so wrong for the band) it's ridiculous. I doubt it would have been possible, technically, to put everyhing in front, with not much time to think about it. I just can't imagine the band wants that distance, usually they are very close to the audience.
It seems they finally changed some melodies to adapt to JLBs voice. I'm glad they do (well, I always loved his middle and darker range the most), I hope it's not a problem for the majority of the fans.
-
From what I understand, DT themselves don't make the price. DT's tour manager sells the concert - it's up to the promoters who buy the concert to charge whatever they see fit to make a profit. Sure if their concert costs less the promoter need to pay less as well, but it's not DT themselves who decide the ticket price.
I don't believe this for a second. When you are successful as DT has been, you can have a major say in how much you charge for tickets.
Of course DT has a major say on the ticket prices, they are the ones selling the concert to the promoters (I don't have the real numbers, but lets say that 5 years ago they (their manager) sold the show for $20000 the night, and now, 5 years later they are selling the same show for $100000 that will surely translate into a more expensive ticket, so yeah, DT has a major say in the ticket prices.
Most bands have little to no say in the ticket prices. The ones who do are typically the bands much bigger than DT.
-
That stage was so too big (and looked so wrong for the band) it's ridiculous. I doubt it would have been possible, technically, to put everyhing in front, with not much time to think about it. I just can't imagine the band wants that distance, usually they are very close to the audience.
Tonight in Manchester.
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18010936_10154340736767477_8227726189533497255_n.jpg?oh=7a90fba047d1f1840bcfd21186252098&oe=597D364C)
-
Maybe they need all that space for the elephant in the room?
-
That's strange. Why are those stages so deep?
-
Maybe they need all that space for the elephant in the room?
They need to break the 4th wall!
-
Maybe they need all that space for the elephant in the room?
:rollin
I guess it's usually needed for the orchestra.
-
Higher ticket prices are designed by the band intentionally. They're getting up there in age and the last thing they need is to throw a hip trying to strike a rock 'n roll pose for a large audience of enthusiastic, young, poor, fans. This way, the audience will be more their age and income level which is easier to relate to. Plus, they get no grief from the wife about young groupies in the front row screaming and pulling their hair out. Instead, the front row is filled with pot bellied men, with full wallets, who don't have any hair left to pull out. More money for merch, too.
It's actually quite clever when you think about it.
You forgot to add that it's also quite prejudiced and discriminatory..
To each their own, I just prefer to have the band I am paying to see acknowledge the crowd's presence. It was only that one concert (TA in NJ last fall) that gave me that impression. I've seen them 14 times now and I've enjoyed every experience so I'm not trying to be hard on the band, just being honest with my feelings. Some people obviously don't care about that interaction, but I personally like that in a live setting, makes you feel apart of the show.
Fair enough.. I guess I've never thought of it.. I happen to just want to go and see them playing; never cared about what the artists say in between the songs or at the end of the show..
Someday, you'll take your serious stick out of your butt ToT-147 and catch sarcasm. :lol
-
Who put the sticks up their butts?
-
Their imaginary friend that has the "no sense of humor stick."
-
i don't think necessarily they have a choice of where to place stuff on the stage...
They have a rider with the minimum stage requirements. So if the stage is big enough (which is obviously the case in those two screenshots), then the band accepted the theater/venue. If the stage didn't fulfill the stage requirements, then the band would have rejected the venue and the promoter would either choose a different venue, or not bring the concert to the city where the promoter wanted the show.
The videos from earlier DT shows (90s era) show cramped/small stages which is normal for bands when they start. As the band grows, typically the stage is bigger (i.e. bigger venue, more people). DT has gotten pretty big (specially in Europe and Asia) compared to the 90s. It's only logical that they play in such big stages. There might be some other venues in the city that would have been more suitable for DT but maybe those were not available for this particular date.
-
What hasn't dt done for the fans since mp left?
Rotating setlist, official bootleg releases (through Ytsejam Records and the Fan clubs), surprises every single Christmas morning, info about the recording process of new material to name a few
They rotated set lists on the ADTOE tour.
The rest is nitpicking. I am sure we could think of some equally nitpicky things the band has done since 2010 that they never did with Portnoy.
-
The difference between what MP did and what the other guys do is a lot more intangible. I think the guys have definitely checked most of the "things MP did" boxes, so I'd really have to work to articulate the rest, and I'm not sure that's even on topic :lol
-
Instead, the front row is filled with pot bellied men, with full wallets, who don't have any hair left to pull out.
Now wait a minute Man! :biggrin:
-
I think that they don't equate crowd standing/jumping/interaction with a good show. They explained in several interviews on the TA tour that they noticed audiences were more often just sitting and intently listening/watching the show. And while it was weird to get used to and not have that extra energy boost it was neat in its own way. Each approach has its benefits and they're exploring this approach.
I actually really enjoyed just watching the Astonishing show. Not that it was sleepy or anything, but it was a neat change up from a rowdy concert vibe. I still wouldn't suggest doing it for every tour.
I thought it was the best DT concert I've seen.
It's funny because I kind of gave some negative criticism specifically for the NJ TA show I went to, but it actually was probably my favorite DT concert out of the 14 I've been to. Performance was great and I was front row which I had never been before, I also really enjoy TA so it was great.
Yeah, you've got to read these forums with the clear notion in mind that our critiques are of small details within a bigger thing we all enjoy GREATLY. And we can talk for longer about things we would change than things we thought were perfect. Because if you think something is perfect you come up with an adjective like "awesome", say it, and move on :lol
-
What hasn't dt done for the fans since mp left?
Rotating setlist, official bootleg releases (through Ytsejam Records and the Fan clubs), surprises every single Christmas morning, info about the recording process of new material to name a few
They rotated set lists on the ADTOE tour.
The rest is nitpicking. I am sure we could think of some equally nitpicky things the band has done since 2010 that they never did with Portnoy.
And also gave a great surprise on Christmas morning representing that ADTOE tour.
As to the stage depth question - it looks like their front of house speakers are possibly prohibiting them setting up closer to the edge of the stage. In a lot of instances, James probably wouldn't be able to go out in front of those mains, or else his mic would feedback, same would apply to JP's vocal mic set up over his pedal board.
-
The stages are deep because they're made for theater and symphony productions.
https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/04/19/19/de/symphony-hall.jpg
The roof construction seem to limit placements quite a bit. Remember, theres a lighting rig AND a sound rig that needs to be mounted in the roof there.
It looks like something similar is going on in Manchester:
https://madebybound.co.uk/photos/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/MARK7345.jpg
https://assets3.radiox.co.uk/2015/48/the-crowd-at-the-o2-apollo-manchester-1449140433-view-0.jpg
https://s3.amazonaws.com/marklatham-site%2F381-hatebreed-manchester-apollo-26-02-2010-20100227/Hatebreed-Manchester-DSC2825.jpg
So, as I said, I don't think its something the BAND does intentionally. In fact - all 5 shows i saw with them this year had them "on the edge of the stage" - as you can see on the "backstage" video the fanclub put out.
-
I took it for granted that DT find themselves in an already existing venue rather than going "Nah, this audience sucks, please put them as far away from us as possible" :D
-
What hasn't dt done for the fans since mp left?
Rotating setlist, official bootleg releases (through Ytsejam Records and the Fan clubs), surprises every single Christmas morning, info about the recording process of new material to name a few
They rotated set lists on the ADTOE tour.
The rest is nitpicking. I am sure we could think of some equally nitpicky things the band has done since 2010 that they never did with Portnoy.
Nitpicking? Really? Whatever.
They released more material through the bootleg department (ytsejam and fan clubs) than official releases through any other label.
Whould you list those nitpicking things they've done since 2010 that they never did with MP?
-
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/marklatham-site%2F381-hatebreed-manchester-apollo-26-02-2010-20100227/Hatebreed-Manchester-DSC2825.jpg)
(https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18010936_10154340736767477_8227726189533497255_n.jpg?oh=7a90fba047d1f1840bcfd21186252098&oe=597D364C)
That's a world of difference though. Look at the horizontal cabling running in front of the floor monitor for Hatebreed, it almost touches those stage indentations on each side. Now look at JP's floor monitor cable, where that goes.
-
They release more material through the bootleg department (ytsejam and fan clubs) than official releases through any other label.
Well, they did release a lot through those avenues, yes. But that was also not really sustainable. Mike's vaults are huge. I don't underestimate that, because the guy kept EVERYTHING. But the thing is, a great deal of what fans would really want and pay for has already been put out there. Ytsejam was slowing down during the Roadrunner years with Portnoy, and there is a reason for that.
-
I will be seeing them for the 2nd time this tour next week in Tilburg.
I would be a little disappointed if they play the exact same set as they did the first show (also Tilburg) but still be a happy fan.
Prepare to be disappointed. The setlist is what it is.
I am checking with the band to see (1) if they are planning on making any changes to the set list, and (2) whether I can share the answer to question #1. I will let you all know if there is any information I can share one way or the other.
According to setlist.fm last nights show was the same setlist from the first leg. Not sure if it's accurate or not though.
I can confirm the setlist for Birmingham had no changes from the previous dates.
I can also confirm the stage set-up for Birmingham looked ridiculous, whatever the reason. Same as with London Palladium show last year.
-
So, now people are complaining about stage space... :lol Get a fucking hobby already. What's next - criticizing their haircuts? Oh wait...
-
That's a world of difference though. Look at the horizontal cabling running in front of the floor monitor for Hatebreed, it almost touches those stage indentations on each side. Now look at JP's floor monitor cable, where that goes.
Not really. The drum rizers and the monitors are placed almost as far back. it just seems that they're closer because there's more clutter on the stage and people are in front of their monitors.
-
So, now people are complaining about stage space... :lol Get a fucking hobby already. What's next - criticizing their haircuts? Oh wait...
I think it's a fair point to discuss considering this thread brought up a perception of distance between the band and the fans and then we see an actual visual representation of that.
-
They release more material through the bootleg department (ytsejam and fan clubs) than official releases through any other label.
Well, they did release a lot through those avenues, yes. But that was also not really sustainable. Mike's vaults are huge. I don't underestimate that, because the guy kept EVERYTHING. But the thing is, a great deal of what fans would really want and pay for has already been put out there. Ytsejam was slowing down during the Roadrunner years with Portnoy, and there is a reason for that.
Interesting comment. Could you elaborate on this or is this something you can't comment on?
Edit: I totally respect if you can't comment, just curious.
-
Regarding the official bootlegs and fan club cds:
Fan Club cds were actually closed down in 2004. The fact that we managed to continue on with the fan club releases for 4 years after that was luck and persistance from our part - i made a proposal for a project for 2005, and we used stuff we filmed in that project for the 2006 release as well. The 2007 release was IAW 15th and the 2008 release was prog nation tour. But we were quite clearly told to "get by by ourselves" already from 2004, and finally it "stuck" in 2008.
Official Bootlegs:
"Demos" portion was already done. No more to be released from this series. Simply because DT stopped doing demos.
"Studio" portion could probably be compiled more of, but in reality these were not highly sought after.
"Covers" portion could probably have a few more compilations, but the "album series" was done.
"Live" portion is where you could do stuff, but after a while it gets pretty darn repetetive, and not very interesting for anyone but the hardcore fans and the people attending a specific show. Those live shows selected were pretty much chosen due to their notoriety in DT history.
So I do not think we'd see that many official bootlegs even with MP continuing in the band.
XMas gift; same thing. When did MP last release a xmas gift?
-
Yeah, I think Noxon covered it. There isn't really anything "secret" that can't be commented on. Fans pretty much know what unreleased material is out there that would be cool to have. The vast majority of truly prized material was released, and the Ytsejam release schedule was slowing down as a result. It's kind of a bummer we didn't get that last set that Mike says he had prepared to release, because I seem to recall that it had a live set from BCSL, which we do not have anywhere. But otherwise, although DT continues to be pretty prolific, in terms of quality bonus content, there just isn't a whole heck of a lot left that they could give us without really starting to scrape the bottom of the barrel before too long.
-
Thanks Noxon and Bosk1 for your insight.
Would of loved for an official release of the Fan Club Unplugged show and a BCLS gig. A bootleg from the Yes tour in 2004 would have been good to. I liked that setlist a lot.
-
I think an official bootleg of a show from TA might be sought after, otherwise I totally agree with Noxon and why we aren't getting more of those releases.
-
I think an official bootleg of a show from TA might be sought after...
I agree. Unfortunately, I don't think it is in the cards. They didn't film any of the shows. They had originally planned to on the second leg. But the way the tour actually got booked and how that deviated form what the band had wanted/intended really screwed that up. I mean, they could release just audio I guess. But I don't really care too much about that. If I'm only going to listen, I may as well listen to the studio version.
-
That's a world of difference though. Look at the horizontal cabling running in front of the floor monitor for Hatebreed, it almost touches those stage indentations on each side. Now look at JP's floor monitor cable, where that goes.
Not really. The drum rizers and the monitors are placed almost as far back. it just seems that they're closer because there's more clutter on the stage and people are in front of their monitors.
Are you now disagreeing with geometry? I mean, the cabling provides a perfect measuring device in this case. DT are a solid 5 feet further back than Hatebreed, for seemingly no good reason.
-
Higher ticket prices are designed by the band intentionally. They're getting up there in age and the last thing they need is to throw a hip trying to strike a rock 'n roll pose for a large audience of enthusiastic, young, poor, fans. This way, the audience will be more their age and income level which is easier to relate to. Plus, they get no grief from the wife about young groupies in the front row screaming and pulling their hair out. Instead, the front row is filled with pot bellied men, with full wallets, who don't have any hair left to pull out. More money for merch, too.
It's actually quite clever when you think about it.
You forgot to add that it's also quite prejudiced and discriminatory..
*childish comment*
You probably should ask before draw a conclusion like that.. Even though another person (this thread's OP I think) didn't thought either of that comment being sarcastic, maybe you should take two things into account for the next time: 1) Not every user on this forums are english native speakers, so it's already hard to understand the content and meaning of everything you guys write everytime (and more in this kind of interesting threads, when I personally read pretty much all the comments)... but to follow when a specific regional/national joke or a sarcastic comment or anything like that is taken place is a completely different animal, and only some of us can get them all.. I read it again now and I can't say it was obvious sarcasm either..
2) and probably more important even when it's so obvious, any of us can't see each other.. I mean, this isn't RF, and even there sometimes you don't know when someone has just said something sarcastic or not.. But yeah, in general you do realize due to the tooone of voice... And that's something we don't have here.. What we do have here?.. The green font?.. Well, as the guy said way before your insulting comment, he forgot to add it.. And, either way, I wouldn't have answer him if the comment were something else, but I couldn't let it be and just leave it like that for other ppl to see it and actually believe it..
So, next time, instead of just make fun of me I invite you to just point it out to let me know (although in this case I already knew by the guy's clarification)..
Having said that, name at least one other time *I* didn't get a sarcastic comment, because apparently you give my responses more importance than I do, and you might know this better than myself.. I'm serious..
-
We really need some Kevin Bacon in this thread.
-
I've spent like ten minutes thinking of a reply to some of the posts above that won't get me any warning here, but I've got nothing. This thread and some of the replies here just remind me why I don't frequent the DT side anymore. The only way it's useful for me now is to find people to put to my ignore list (this isn't directed at the OP).
Sorry for that brief bit of bitterness, now that I'm here, I might as well contribute to the actual discussion. Regarding the prices, I always thought DT had fairly-priced tickets for any of the Russian shows (they didn't come here for either TA tour or the current one). I think the most expensive one was their AFTR tour, and that cost me like $50 for GA, but that was also the show I've managed to get into the front row, so it was worth every cent I've spent.
But, I mean, sometimes there are instances where the price seems too steep. For example, the Nightwish show I've been at in 2016 cost me like $80 for GA (not counting M&G which had to be paid for separately), and it wasn't three hours or anything, just a regular show. At the same time, when Avantasia came here, also in 2016, the tickets were like $30 for all the 3+ hours show, lots of amazing singers and overall way better show than Nightwish presented. If I wasn't so interested in seeing Nightwish live with Floor, I probably would've passed that show (as did my friends who are usually always there with me at the shows I go to).
-
So, now people are complaining about stage space... :lol Get a fucking hobby already. What's next - criticizing their haircuts? Oh wait...
I think it's a fair point to discuss considering this thread brought up a perception of distance between the band and the fans and then we see an actual visual representation of that.
I think people are bored and looking for anything to nitpick about. Do you really think the band was having this discussion?
JP: Nah, we're too close. Those people in the front row always look dirty, too. I want to create a distance between us.
JR: And they're always winking at me
JLB; Yarrrr, yah dirty slobs.
JP: So, we need to play on deeper stages and move as far back as possible because not only do we need to mentally be separated from our fans, but physically, too.
JM: ...
JR: Yes, JP. You're right. That's such an Astonishing idea.
JM: ...
JP: So, it's settled. We hate our fans so let's distance ourselves from them in any way possible.
MM: Why am I always left out of the discussion? Even the silent man gets a few dots in.
-
:lol I certainly don't think they have similar discussions, just that it might be an after thought. I mean maybe there are real logistical reasons why as well, I don't know, I'l let Rumbo and Noxon argue that part, but I personally think they don't even think about these things because they have more than enough on their minds, but someone in the band's management should think about things like this.
-
I've spent like ten minutes thinking of a reply to some of the posts above that won't get me any warning here, but I've got nothing. This thread and some of the replies here just remind me why I don't frequent the DT side anymore. The only way it's useful for me now is to find people to put to my ignore list (this isn't directed at the OP).
Sorry you feel that way. And it's a fair point. Not sure which side of some of the issues you fall on, but you should be able to post your thoughts. I admit that oftentimes, there is a tendency to go too far on either side. There has always been somewhat of a tendency to whine and nitpick over things that are somewhat ridiculous. On the other side, there is a tendency to jump down a poster's throat when they whine and nitpick over things that are somewhat ridiculous. The problem with the latter is that people (myself included) sometimes just get tired of reading the same types of things over and over, or we know a bit more inside information about how things work than the average person, so we lose patience and are a bit too quick on the trigger. On either side, there can be a lack of patience for the opposing view. It's good to have a reminder every now and then that such patience is needed.
-
:lol I certainly don't think they have similar discussions, just that it might be an after thought. I mean maybe there are real logistical reasons why as well, I don't know, I'l let Rumbo and Noxon argue that part, but I personally think they don't even think about these things because they have more than enough on their minds, but someone in the band's management should think about things like this.
I'm sure it's just the way it happened. Though it would be really funny if they read the posts about the band not doing as much as MP used to and intentionally played on deeper stages just to fuck with us. Now that would be funny. :lol
-
I don't wanna keep rethreading the water, but:
I found another angle of the hatebreed gig, which was more similar to the DT gig. I overlayed it over the DT stage:
(https://dtnorway.com/drrt.jpg)
So yes, "geometry".
It doesn't have a perfect match of the angle (the hatebreed one seems to be taken lower down than the DT one) but you still can CLEARLY see that both stages feature a very deep setup. Hatebreed is slightly closer, but not much.
-
And i mean; (https://madebybound.co.uk/photos/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/MARK7345.jpg) This one jsut explains it COMPLETELY. Look at where the stage roof ends. It's like 3 meters from the stage end. Speakers hang at that roof end not the stage end. The deep setup is just necessary due to stage limitations, not that the bands want to be 15 meters from the first row.. :P
-
It's not even about talking, it's just about a general interaction. Eye contact, moving close to the fans at the edge of the stage, getting people to clap or chant, pointing at the person who is going nuts. It could be a lot of things. MP was very good at that.
Being he a drummer, I find that hard to believe, and OTOH I know he didn't do that... because neither he or any other drummer could.. But ok, I get your point now.. And even when I still couldn't say I give to those aspects more importance than the show itself or the performance or the setlist or the sounding (or even the venue), and I think you're right, yeah, MP did a lot of that, because of how he is... then again, JLB does almost all these things you're mentioning.. But yeah, I get it, he's not MP.. :tup
(...) But then again, numbers are valid only if put into context.
(...) the only thing I really feel like it has changed the way I look at them is that somehow they've really regress in terms of maturity: they used to be cool, to write very interesting arrangements, to write deep lyrics (e.g. Voices) ecc...
And then they did SC and never fully recover from that.
And opinions are valid in context too.. And I think, for everything I have heard/read since MP's departure, the majority thinks the other way around.. That their songwriting is more mature, that they seem more happy while playing, even that the lyrics are deeper now (excepting TA).. Lyrics like the ones in SC, ANtR and TCoT are almost constantly critiziced and memed; but since then, everytime the lyrics could reflexively speak about life and such (again, this excepts TA because of its fictional purpose) they were way deeper than in the previous... what? four albums?... And that not to say before lot of songs were very abstract, like KM's or Scarred, etc.. Now they're much more clearer and straightforward while still having the poetic side..
So, now people are complaining about stage space... :lol Get a fucking hobby already. What's next - criticizing their haircuts? Oh wait...
I think people are bored and looking for anything to nitpick about. Do you really think the band was having this discussion?
JP: Nah, we're too close. Those people in the front row always look dirty, too. I want to create a distance between us.
JR: And they're always winking at me
JLB; Yarrrr, yah dirty slobs.
JP: So, we need to play on deeper stages and move as far back as possible because not only do we need to mentally be separated from our fans, but physically, too.
I think this is the first time I agree with you.. Actually this was obviously what that comment of Podaar was implying, whether its final sentence was sarcastic or not.. We all know there are people who actually thinks like that, and there are entire bands that think like that..
-
@noxon: Interesting. Yeah, DT is still back a bit farther. But not much. It's just an add stage. Not sure why they don't equip it so bands can be farther forward.
-
I don't wanna keep rethreading the water, but:
I found another angle of the hatebreed gig, which was more similar to the DT gig. I overlayed it over the DT stage:
(https://dtnorway.com/drrt.jpg)
So yes, "geometry".
It doesn't have a perfect match of the angle (the hatebreed one seems to be taken lower down than the DT one) but you still can CLEARLY see that both stages feature a very deep setup. Hatebreed is slightly closer, but not much.
I disagree on whether it's "not much". As you can see in the original Hatebreed pic, the singer is also bouncing around in front of those floor monitors. In the Birmingham video, James almost never ventured in front of that invisible line between JM's and JP's gear. The whole band looks removed from the audience. I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but it just all plays into the general feeling that since MP's departure the band has grown more distant to its fans.
-
Explain todays setup then:
(https://instagram.fsvg1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/t51.2885-15/e35/18011755_820319644785223_1410611901620027392_n.jpg)
-
What is there to explain? It's good that today they have a good setup. You're not suggesting that the last two nights are somehow made better by today's smaller distance to the crowd, are you?
-
The whole band looks removed from the audience. I'm not saying it's the end of the world, but it just all plays into the general feeling that since MP's departure the band has grown more distant to its fans.
Yeah, I think I kinda agree with that, but I'd add: or ..at least it seems like that... Because that's, again, due to MP's personality.. He was clearly the most extroverted guy in the band, and therefore is obvious that if he wasn't in the band anymore the sociability with us would fall a bit.. But I think we couldn't just say that they don't care for us or that they don't want us near them (I mean: M&Gs, Q&As, you're forgetting things like these).. All DT guys were always appreciative of the fanbase they have... one guy just happen to expressed it more or better than the rest, that's all..
-
We all know there are people who actually thinks like that, and there are entire bands that think like that..
I really hope I'm misunderstanding you. I really do. Do you actually believe there are bands who think like Prog Snob's obviously sarcastic conversation? I can honestly say I've never been witness to any such attitude. Furthermore, I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's fantastically unlikely.
-
We all know there are people who actually thinks like that, and there are entire bands that think like that..
I really hope I'm misunderstanding you. I really do. Do you actually believe there are bands who think like Prog Snob's obviously sarcastic conversation? I can honestly say I've never been witness to any such attitude. Furthermore, I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's fantastically unlikely.
You're not.. Beyond the jokes and the sacarstic comments, obviously there's people who thinks that way.. It's called discrimination, and unfortunately there's plenty of it in our planet.. Now, I'm not saying DT does that, of course, although they easily might think like that, who knows that but only them?; but no, *I* was the one who didn't get the sarcasm in your yesterday's comment; my bad for that.. But if not you, then other people in this very thread is saying that, for whatever reason, they don't want us near them.. One of the reason could be at least one of the things you mentioned in that comment..
-
There is no discrimination mentioned, so please take that nonsense somewhere else and stop making an issue where there doesn't need to be one. That isn't what this thread is about.
-
I was going to attempt a reasoned response but was really struggling on where to start. Rescued by bosk1!
o/
-
*\o
Now if only Kevin Bacon would help with the removal of those sticks, we could move on.
-
I honestly think all the discussion about a distance between the band and the audience is superfluous. At almost every show the band is performing very close to the audience. At almost every show I've seen live or on youtube JLB is running around so close to the edge of the stage that I sometimes fear he'd fall off. When JP and JR are doing their (duet) solos they are as close to the audience as possible. There are very few exceptions and these exceptions mostly seem to be in the UK - perhaps because they play in theaters there that are built for a different kind of event like classic concerts, theater or musicals. I'm 200% convinced that DT doesn't WANT a distance to their fans.
-
So I do not think we'd see that many official bootlegs even with MP continuing in the band.
I disagree. While the demo series might have played out, the studio series would have been happening. And with his vault chock full of shows over the entire career of the band, you can be sure he would have picked out various shows to release. Especially from the Evening With tours, there was a lot of variety in the setlists so that at least a couple of shows from each tour could've been released. Not to mention the shows since 2010 (assuming he was still with the band). And of course, the covers would have also continued, so I'm sure the cover series wouldn't have ended either. There were plenty of bands you can be sure he would've been ready to pick to have DT cover.
Lyrics like the ones in SC, ANtR and TCoT are almost constantly critiziced and memed; but since then, everytime the lyrics could reflexively speak about life and such (again, this excepts TA because of its fictional purpose) they were way deeper than in the previous... what? four albums?
And this has to do with MP how? JP wrote most of the lyrics on SC, as well as ANtR and TCoT.
-
It was already frustrating even with MP in the band, and the releases really slowed to a trickle.
-
What hasn't dt done for the fans since mp left?
Rotating setlist, official bootleg releases (through Ytsejam Records and the Fan clubs), surprises every single Christmas morning, info about the recording process of new material to name a few
They rotated set lists on the ADTOE tour.
The rest is nitpicking. I am sure we could think of some equally nitpicky things the band has done since 2010 that they never did with Portnoy.
Nitpicking? Really? Whatever.
They release more material through the bootleg department (ytsejam and fan clubs) than official releases through any other label.
Whould you list those nitpicking things they've done since 2010 that they never did with MP?
-Gave the fans an entire live CD for FREE on Christmas morning.
-Had a 2-song acoustic set EVERY NIGHT on the ADTOE tour, which was rotated from show to show.
-Gave us a double disc concept album.
-Played Space Dye Vest live.
-All of that online interactive stuff related to The Astonishing.
Shall I go on? :P
-
What hasn't dt done for the fans since mp left?
Rotating setlist, official bootleg releases (through Ytsejam Records and the Fan clubs), surprises every single Christmas morning, info about the recording process of new material to name a few
They rotated set lists on the ADTOE tour.
The rest is nitpicking. I am sure we could think of some equally nitpicky things the band has done since 2010 that they never did with Portnoy.
Nitpicking? Really? Whatever.
They release more material through the bootleg department (ytsejam and fan clubs) than official releases through any other label.
Whould you list those nitpicking things they've done since 2010 that they never did with MP?
-Gave the fans an entire live CD for FREE on Christmas morning.
-Had a 2-song acoustic set EVERY NIGHT on the ADTOE tour, which was rotated from show to show.
-Gave us a double disc concept album.
-Played Space Dye Vest live.
-All of that online interactive stuff related to The Astonishing.
Shall I go on? :P
::) Ha!
What about the following:
- Gave the fans an entire live CD for FREE on Christmas morning ONE time VS. giving fans a variety of video clips multiple years as well as 3-4 official bootlegs every 1-2 years
- Had a 2-song acoustic set EVERY NIGHT on the ADTOE tour, which was rotated from show to show and swapping a maximum of 6 songs between 2 shows for ONE tour 5-6 years ago, but keeping a static setlist for every tour since VS. arranging to have between 3.5 to 6.0 hours of material rehearsed during every tour for 9 consecutive years to swap out and play back-to-back shows in the same city with (almost) completely different setlists
- Gave us a double disc concept album that has split the fanbase in half VS. giving us a single CD concept album that is almost universally loved by the fanbase
- Played Space Dye Vest live VS. playing just about everything else in the catalog, including early, rare/obscure and cover tracks that the diehard fans love
- All of that online interactive stuff related to The Astonishing which was cool initially but didn't amount to much VS. I got nothin'
Shall I go on? :coolio
-
What about the following:
- Gave the fans an entire live CD for FREE on Christmas morning ONE time VS. giving fans a variety of video clips multiple years as well as 3-4 official bootlegs every 1-2 years
Were any of those official bootlegs free?
- Had a 2-song acoustic set EVERY NIGHT on the ADTOE tour, which was rotated from show to show and swapping a maximum of 6 songs between 2 shows for ONE tour 5-6 years ago, but keeping a static setlist for every tour since VS. arranging to have between 3.5 to 6.0 hours of material rehearsed during every tour for 9 consecutive years to swap out and play back-to-back shows in the same city with (almost) completely different setlists
You seem to forget that the set lists had gotten pretty static late in Portnoy's tenure with the band. I doubt they will ever rotate set lists again like they did from 2002-2006. Even if Portnoy had stayed in the band, it never would have been like that again on a regular basis.
Besides, it's not that the band is incapable of rotating set lists now, or doesn't want to put in the work to do so. They do not want to do it. And they have stated their reasons, which are very legitimate.
- Gave us a double disc concept album that has split the fanbase in half VS. giving us a single CD concept album that is almost universally loved by the fanbase
That is true, but the fact remains that a double disc concept album is still something they have given us that they never did when Portnoy was in the band, so taking the "DT doesn't do things they did when MP was in the band" stance ignores the fact that DT IS doing things they never did with Portnoy.
- Played Space Dye Vest live VS. playing just about everything else in the catalog, including early, rare/obscure and cover tracks that the diehard fans love
That some diehard fans love. Not everyone loved them covering albums/songs, just like not everyone loved them playing Space Dye Vest.
As for "playing just about everything else in the catalog," in the tours since they started touring with Mangini six years ago, Dream Theater has played, from their studio albums, around 90 of their songs. They have done a tremendous job of covering a shit load of songs from their career in the last six years, even if they do not rotate set lists like the early to mid 00s.
-
This is getting very silly.
-
This is getting very silly.
This has been very silly for a while.
I bet things would have been better if Moore had stayed.
-
As for "playing just about everything else in the catalog," in the tours since they started touring with Mangini six years ago, Dream Theater has played, from their studio albums, around 90 of their songs. They have done a tremendous job of covering a shit load of songs from their career in the last six years, even if they do not rotate set lists like the early to mid 00s.
Truth, brother.
Although they don't rotate setlists, every tour in the MM era has had an amazing and varied setlist. Over the course of this time, the list of live tracks has been tremendous!
This is getting very silly.
I bet things would have been better if Moore had stayed.
Then it would've been Moore silly?
:neverusethis:
-
Lol wut? It's probably the single thing a musician gets asked about before the gig, where on stage he wants his equipment. I'm pretty sure they weren't told "sorry guys, you have to be at least 10 feet from the edge".
That's a very odd shaped stage so I bet they have to be that far back because that's where the lighting rig is set up. Have we ever seen them that far back? I don't remember any time they were. Why would they all of the sudden have one show where they were back that far? Obviously it is beyond their control.
How does this even make sense? Birmingham has a venue that can't light the front half of the stage?
Not only that, but the spotlights are always coming from the back. There's zero reason for any of them to stay in the back the whole time, even if their equipment is back there.
Incorrect. That is a proscenium theatre. There are lights all around the frame stage and even from the sides. If they moved up, there would be large dark spots where they play. The part that juts out which they don't normally have is usually referred to as a thrust. Sometimes it can be removed for an orchestra or even to add more seats so people are closer to the stage. This particular stage looks like it is permanently a part of it or perhaps they cannot remove it and put seats so rather than have a huge gaping hole, they just kept it there so occasionally they could come out from behind and get close to the audience.
I don't even understand how this is a debate. When there is not a thrust in front of the proscenium, they are right up close to the audience. Do you really think they showed up and said, "Aw, sweet. Now we can be 20 feet from the audience!"
When it is a normal proscenium stage without the thrust portion, it's not as if they push their equipment back to get as far away from the audience as possible. So why do you think they all of the sudden decided to do this if they could in fact help where their equipment is at?
-
This is getting very silly.
I bet things would have been better if Moore had stayed.
Then it would've been Moore silly?
:neverusethis:
Well yea. Moore or less.
-
Incorrect. That is a proscenium theatre. There are lights all around the frame stage and even from the sides. If they moved up, there would be large dark spots where they play. The part that juts out which they don't normally have is usually referred to as a thrust. Sometimes it can be removed for an orchestra or even to add more seats so people are closer to the stage. This particular stage looks like it is permanently a part of it or perhaps they cannot remove it and put seats so rather than have a huge gaping hole, they just kept it there so occasionally they could come out from behind and get close to the audience.
I don't even understand how this is a debate. When there is not a thrust in front of the proscenium, they are right up close to the audience. Do you really think they showed up and said, "Aw, sweet. Now we can be 20 feet from the audience!"
When it is a normal proscenium stage without the thrust portion, it's not as if they push their equipment back to get as far away from the audience as possible. So why do you think they all of the sudden decided to do this if they could in fact help where their equipment is at?
Those are nice fancy words. Do they make it somehow better that DT was far removed from the audience in Birmingham?
Maybe the simple answer here is, "don't book symphony venues. DT doesn't move around much, they will look lost".
-
Incorrect. That is a proscenium theatre. There are lights all around the frame stage and even from the sides. If they moved up, there would be large dark spots where they play. The part that juts out which they don't normally have is usually referred to as a thrust. Sometimes it can be removed for an orchestra or even to add more seats so people are closer to the stage. This particular stage looks like it is permanently a part of it or perhaps they cannot remove it and put seats so rather than have a huge gaping hole, they just kept it there so occasionally they could come out from behind and get close to the audience.
I don't even understand how this is a debate. When there is not a thrust in front of the proscenium, they are right up close to the audience. Do you really think they showed up and said, "Aw, sweet. Now we can be 20 feet from the audience!"
When it is a normal proscenium stage without the thrust portion, it's not as if they push their equipment back to get as far away from the audience as possible. So why do you think they all of the sudden decided to do this if they could in fact help where their equipment is at?
Those are nice fancy words. Do they make it somehow better that DT was far removed from the audience in Birmingham?
Maybe the simple answer here is, "don't book symphony venues. DT doesn't move around much, they will look lost".
Well now you're just changing the argument. I wasn't using fancy words to be condescending. I was trying to explain something to someone that clearly didn't understand why the stage was shaped that way.
As it stands, you're right in the sense that it does look awkward. I never argued it didn't. If all their shows were setup that way, I'd be like "Hey, John Myung...talk some sense into the guys!" As far as not booking those places,that's not how tour routing works. Don't worry, I'll refrain from using fancy words but basically if the option is not booking a show on a certain date because a venue with a better stage wasn't available or sticking it out and not losing a bunch of money but risking three people complaining about how far back Dream Theater plays, well...I guess we know what they will choose.
-
There is no discrimination mentioned, so please take that nonsense somewhere else and stop making an issue where there doesn't need to be one. That isn't what this thread is about.
Yes, it was mentioned.. You don't make a comment, however cynical it may be, from nowhere.. Oh, and keep coming the Kevin Bacon jokes, I don't get them anyways..
I think this isn't a thread about Kevin Bacon either.. Or is it?..
-
I'm with Evermind on this one. Discussions are running round in circles and, above all, only a few people tend to monopolize the talking. When I open a thread on this part of the forums, I almost exactly know the content I'm gonna find. Here, in France, we are in the middle of a presidential election, and frankly, some of you guys remind me a lot of our candidates, and it's not in your favor.
B.Lee
-
I'm with Evermind on this one. Discussions are running round in circles and, above all, only a few people tend to monopolize the talking. When I open a thread on this part of the forums, I almost exactly know the content I'm gonna find. Here, in France, we are in the middle of a presidential election, and frankly, some of you guys remind me a lot of our candidates, and it's not in your favor.
B.Lee
I agree completely with this and what Evermind posted. I'm all for constructive criticism but some of the posts on here are ridiculous. As soon as I see certain posters have posted on virtually ANY thread I know what is about to follow - A negative slant on any situation to justify in their mind that DT aren't as good as they used to be or are more distant from their fans than they used to be.
-
Let's turn it around:
Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"? :P
-
I'm with Evermind on this one. Discussions are running round in circles and, above all, only a few people tend to monopolize the talking. When I open a thread on this part of the forums, I almost exactly know the content I'm gonna find. Here, in France, we are in the middle of a presidential election, and frankly, some of you guys remind me a lot of our candidates, and it's not in your favor.
B.Lee
I agree completely with this and what Evermind posted. I'm all for constructive criticism but some of the posts on here are ridiculous. As soon as I see certain posters have posted on virtually ANY thread I know what is about to follow - A negative slant on any situation to justify in their mind that DT aren't as good as they used to be or are more distant from their fans than they used to be.
And if that is how the genuinely feel, what should they do? Lie to make those who love the band all and beyond satisfied?
-
BTW here's my reply to KevShmev:
Were any of those official bootlegs free?
Of course not. But the videos MP offered up on his site every year were, as were the fan club CDs that were released (and he was directly involved in 9 of them). Even then, I'd still rather have the choice of purchasing numerous official bootlegs rather than get just one free.
You seem to forget that the set lists had gotten pretty static late in Portnoy's tenure with the band. I doubt they will ever rotate set lists again like they did from 2002-2006. Even if Portnoy had stayed in the band, it never would have been like that again on a regular basis.
The setlists were still more varied in MP's later years with the band than what DT did on the ADToE tour. Sure there were staple songs that MP made sure were in most setlists, but those comprised half the setlist at most. Look at the shows where they did 2 shows in a row in the same city, even in 2008-2010 and you'll see the setlists are extremely different. As for what would've happened if he had stayed with the band, that's all conjecture; I could say just the opposite.
Besides, it's not that the band is incapable of rotating set lists now, or doesn't want to put in the work to do so. They do not want to do it. And they have stated their reasons, which are very legitimate.
Fine for them, but the question noxon raised is
What hasn't dt done for the fans since mp left?
Rotating setlists is certainly one of the big points, no matter what reasons are given.
That is true, but the fact remains that a double disc concept album is still something they have given us that they never did when Portnoy was in the band, so taking the "DT doesn't do things they did when MP was in the band" stance ignores the fact that DT IS doing things they never did with Portnoy.
Again, we're talking about what the band has done for the fans, and I'd say putting out a divisive album, whether a concept album, a double album or both still is a negative. And this point of your's is really splitting hairs. While MP was with the band, they put out one pure concept album; three if you count the second disc of Six Degrees and Octavarium. And they did put out a double album, half of which is certainly a concept album on it's own.
That some diehard fans love. Not everyone loved them covering albums/songs, just like not everyone loved them playing Space Dye Vest.
Sure not everyone's going to love all the covers, but there were plenty that did and it was just one more extra that made DT stand out as different to them.
As for "playing just about everything else in the catalog," in the tours since they started touring with Mangini six years ago, Dream Theater has played, from their studio albums, around 90 of their songs. They have done a tremendous job of covering a shit load of songs from their career in the last six years, even if they do not rotate set lists like the early to mid 00s.
You know, for curiosity's sake, I took the time to compare the list of songs over equal time periods (2004-2010 vs. 2011-2017) because I wanted to see how true your statement is. Here's what I found (based on studio versions of the songs):
- from 2011-2017, they played 91 different songs (not including the No-Mac tracks) totaling 10 hours, 3 minutes + 3 covers for an additional 19 minutes = 94 songs/10h 22m
- from 2004-2010, they played 85 different songs totaling 11 hours, 33 minutes + 40 different complete covers for an additional 4 hours, 43 minutes (based on official bootlegs) = 125 songs/16h 16m
I'm surprised that there's not a bigger difference than there is for DT originals, but with MP there still is 1.5 hours of more material that was performed than without him. The higher number of songs from the MM-era is obviously because of TA's short songs. I know you'll argue that the covers shouldn't count, but I would say they should since they were part of the live set. The fact that MP managed to cover as much ground as he did with DT's originals and all those covers in that time period is a testament to him.
-
I'm with Evermind on this one. Discussions are running round in circles and, above all, only a few people tend to monopolize the talking. When I open a thread on this part of the forums, I almost exactly know the content I'm gonna find. Here, in France, we are in the middle of a presidential election, and frankly, some of you guys remind me a lot of our candidates, and it's not in your favor.
B.Lee
I agree completely with this and what Evermind posted. I'm all for constructive criticism but some of the posts on here are ridiculous. As soon as I see certain posters have posted on virtually ANY thread I know what is about to follow - A negative slant on any situation to justify in their mind that DT aren't as good as they used to be or are more distant from their fans than they used to be.
And if that is how the genuinely feel, what should they do? Lie to make those who love the band all and beyond satisfied?
Look, You've only been here for a short period of time. I've been on the forum for10 years now and when I make the claim that's it's only a few people who monopolize the talking, I know what I'm talking about. Plus, read my post again : I never talked just about those having a negative opinion. Frankly, some opinions here are so predictable that they've become stereotypes.
B.Lee
-
As soon as I see certain posters have posted on virtually ANY thread I know what is about to follow - A negative slant on any situation to justify in their mind that DT aren't as good as they used to be or are more distant from their fans than they used to be.
This works for many different subjects, though, no matter your personal slant. Eg: Kotowboy (sorry to pick on you!) will probably post positively re Metallica, and negatively re Mike Portnoy.
Just ignore what you need to. If everyone took their opinions elsewhere, this would be a rather dull place to visit.
-
As soon as I see certain posters have posted on virtually ANY thread I know what is about to follow - A negative slant on any situation to justify in their mind that DT aren't as good as they used to be or are more distant from their fans than they used to be.
This works for many different subjects, though, no matter your personal slant. Eg: Kotowboy (sorry to pick on you!) will probably post positively re Metallica, and negatively re Mike Portnoy.
Just ignore what you need to. If everyone took their opinions elsewhere, this would be a rather dull place to visit.
You're right, but some posts belong to private messages when they only concern two or three individuals.
B.Lee
-
I'm going to choose to not get involved with a lot of this, however, this seems worthwhile.
Let's turn it around:
Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"? :P
First off, thank you for offering this. Second, I'm not a vocal critic of the current lineup, I think it's a great lineup and that overall they are doing a fantastic job. Are there things they could do better? Sure. But for the most part, I think they are doing great.
The two things I think they could consider would be (1) rotating set lists again (personally, I never go to more than one show per tour, so this doesn't matter much to me, but the MP crew seems to go back to this every time) and (2) consider releasing new bootlegs from ytsejam records.
-
just to clarify my post - ive got nothing wrong with differing opinions and constructive criticism. To say that I want people to lie and say everything is fine and dandy is ridiculous. My point was one or two posters just seem to post with a negative slant on everything. DT is not perfect and I would never say they are and I don't expect every single post to have a positive slant. Having opinions is good but some of the posts on this thread have been silly (imo)
-
(2) consider releasing new bootlegs from ytsejam records.
This.
-
Hello! First post and dream theater noob just browsing ahead of the Cardiff gig tomorrow. You all, err, seem to get along :o :P
I'm actually struck by just how many seats there are left to Cardiff. I know there were a lot of seats to sell but dayyyymn. Also, it's not the whole of the arena so a lot of the 'greyed out' areas on ticketmaster we're never for sale, at least not the back 1/4 or even the back 1/3. Evidently not priced correctly.
Also wtf is this verification stuff to just post.... terribad!
-
Hello! First post and dream theater noob just browsing ahead of the Cardiff gig tomorrow. You all, err, seem to get along :o :P
I'm actually struck by just how many seats there are left to Cardiff. I know there were a lot of seats to sell but dayyyymn. Also, it's not the whole of the arena so a lot of the 'greyed out' areas on ticketmaster we're never for sale, at least not the back 1/4 or even the back 1/3. Evidently not priced correctly.
Also wtf is this verification stuff to just post.... terribad!
Welcome to DTF.
DO NOT MAKE JOKES! DT is serious business
The white zone is for loading and unloading only. If you need to load or unload go to the white zone. You'll love it. It's a way of life.
-
Well, for those who are new here, it may seem a bit strange. But if you want to hang around here long term, the one crucial piece of information to keep in mind is
-
bosk1 loves Pull Me Under and it is a way of life for him.
-
*stereotypical post*
-
Let's turn it around:
Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"? :P
Stop letting the few spoiled and nitpickers represent the rest of us. There are many of us here who always appreciate what they band does. You also forget to include the tens of thousands of fans around the world who don't post here, who probably buy every album, love everything the band does, and consider themselves lucky just to see them play live ONCE.
P.S. I hope you aren't going to write the lyrics to Never Enough 2. ;D
-
Cut myself open again
This isn't the first time
All for you
To be happy
-
Let's turn it around:
Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"? :P
You, sir, are a God.
Just let them know they should keep doing whatever they honestly want to do and be happy. :tup
-
Let's turn it around:
Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"? :P
You, sir, are a God.
Just let them know they should keep doing whatever they honestly want to do and be happy. :tup
-
Let's turn it around:
Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"? :P
You, sir, are a God.
Just let them know they should keep doing whatever they honestly want to do and be happy. :tup
This.. Although I'm pretty sure they're already doing that.. So tell them nothing.. :lol
-
There is no discrimination mentioned, so please take that nonsense somewhere else and stop making an issue where there doesn't need to be one. That isn't what this thread is about.
Yes, it was mentioned..
No it wasn't. There was nothing discriminatory even hinted at anywhere in the thread, so let it go.
-
Let's turn it around:
Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"? :P
Just let them know they should keep doing whatever they honestly want to do and be happy. :tup
Well yes of course. But if I were to humbly request . . . I'd like to see more ytsejamrecords releases. They did say they were going to keep that going.
-
Let's turn it around:
Given that it is in my power to actually provide feedback and maybe get DT to do something differently - what would they be required to do to not get the same old claim of "they're not doing enough"? 'Cause that's literally my job in the DT organization. I've tried to do a lot of what I thought people actually wanted, but apparently it is not enough, so you gotta tell me what would they need to do for you to feel "loved"? :P
If I could ask for one thing from DT, I think I would ask for rotating setlists to come back. I think that unknown of what songs you will see brings a lot of excitement to the tour as well as encourages people to see multiple shows. I'd be cool if they got rid of the click track as well, even if that means they hold back on a better stage show (same with rotating setlists).
-
There is no discrimination mentioned, so please take that nonsense somewhere else and stop making an issue where there doesn't need to be one. That isn't what this thread is about.
Yes, it was mentioned..
No it wasn't. There was nothing discriminatory even hinted at anywhere in the thread, so let it go.
Yeah man, it was 'hinted', if you want, by two users, as a joke.. I already explained that I didn't realize the first of them was a joke so I responded to it as if was a serious comment.. That was my only mistake or "nonsense", although I wouldn't call it that way.. It was a misunderstanding.. The comment of the Bender's guy was the one that ended up exaggerating that little confusion (which had already been clarified) and thus leading the conversation away from the main topic of the thread..
So let's go back to it.. Let's see.. Even if I got wrong that first comment, the factor I mentioned back then still stands in relation of what the OP was saying or complaining in the first place: the fact that not everyone has the money to go to every concert DT does, and even less if they're the expensive they are these days.. And yeah, of course that if you don't have the money and because of that you can't go then there's nothing to do about it.. But we're not robots, and it does hurt when you have to miss a show of one of your favorite bands for a reason like that..
I mean, seeing those empty seats in these days' shows is really painful.. I think I agree that they should lower the ticket prices, and that way they wouldn't even be loosing too much, because the people would actually go to see them; and I'm not saying that's an easy thing to do.. But probably for next tour they can consider better the situation..
-
Hey, I'm that Bender guy! :lol
For them to have a better stage production, you have to ask for more money. That being said, the spotinaity of the past shows that were cheaper are not the same.
Money isn't the reason they are seeing empty seats right now.
-
Money isn't the reason they are seeing empty seats right now.
Agreed. I mostly blame pelvic sorcery.
-
You'd think that would draw then in!
-
:lol at bosk1
Hey, King. I want to take the Bender crown away from you, thus, I throw down the gauntlet. The biggest hangover on Monday morning wins.
-
I apologize for the beat down you will encounter. :lol
-
I should have specified "lack of" in my post.
-
How is this thread 6 pages??
-
Because of...
(https://31.media.tumblr.com/cc071c06f688cf0e1d190b292c329d12/tumblr_n9sff3zwRW1qdfs7xo1_250.gif)
-
By people posting but that's not important right now.
-
See, this is why I avoid DT-side even more than P/R. I don't know if this was mentioned or not - I only allowed myself the pain of the last page - but I'm guessing that the OP does not have a grasp on how basic economic factors such as supply/demand, market forces, fixed/variable costs etc... play in setting prices to determine not only A) break even but B) profit maximization ? I'm sure the promoter(s) has a handle on it, so let's leave pricing strategies to the professionals.
Relative to other bands (I'm looking at you, Metallica), Dream Theater is still a lower priced ticket. Hell, Scorps are charging close to $100USD for the "cheap seats" on their upcoming Crazy World Tour.
-
Hell, Scorps are charging close to $100USD for the "cheap seats" on their upcoming Crazy World Tour.
Really? I got two tickets for Scorpions and Megadeath at MSG for 44 bucks each (after fees) Front row in the top section (cheap seats, but a good cheap seats).
Edited to fix my price, I was off by a bit.
-
Relative to other bands (I'm looking at you, Metallica), Dream Theater is still a lower priced ticket.
Well, yes, but only relative to other bands, as you're saying.. The fact that biggest bands are pricey doesn't cancel the expensive DT's -and many other bands'- prices are..
-
Maybe to you but DT are reasonable compared to other bands these days.
-
Definitely agree. I was very surprised back in the day for how cheap the BTFW tickets went. I assumed with all the hooplah of DVD filming and live orchestra they'd be in the $80-$100 range, but they actually cost $50 IIRC.
-
See, this is why I avoid DT-side even more than P/R. I don't know if this was mentioned or not - I only allowed myself the pain of the last page - but I'm guessing that the OP does not have a grasp on how basic economic factors such as supply/demand, market forces, fixed/variable costs etc... play in setting prices to determine not only A) break even but B) profit maximization ? I'm sure the promoter(s) has a handle on it, so let's leave pricing strategies to the professionals.
Relative to other bands (I'm looking at you, Metallica), Dream Theater is still a lower priced ticket. Hell, Scorps are charging close to $100USD for the "cheap seats" on their upcoming Crazy World Tour.
Scorpions have become gold diggers. They are up to their third farewell tour.
-
For me DT tickets are reasonable. 50, 80, 100$ cdn is very acceptable. They usually put on a very good show. Sports tickets (especially hockey) is a total disgrace.
-
BTW here's my reply to KevShmev:
Were any of those official bootlegs free?
Of course not. But the videos MP offered up on his site every year were, as were the fan club CDs that were released (and he was directly involved in 9 of them). Even then, I'd still rather have the choice of purchasing numerous official bootlegs rather than get just one free.
Okay.
You seem to forget that the set lists had gotten pretty static late in Portnoy's tenure with the band. I doubt they will ever rotate set lists again like they did from 2002-2006. Even if Portnoy had stayed in the band, it never would have been like that again on a regular basis.
The setlists were still more varied in MP's later years with the band than what DT did on the ADToE tour. Sure there were staple songs that MP made sure were in most setlists, but those comprised half the setlist at most. Look at the shows where they did 2 shows in a row in the same city, even in 2008-2010 and you'll see the setlists are extremely different. As for what would've happened if he had stayed with the band, that's all conjecture; I could say just the opposite.
Okay.
That is true, but the fact remains that a double disc concept album is still something they have given us that they never did when Portnoy was in the band, so taking the "DT doesn't do things they did when MP was in the band" stance ignores the fact that DT IS doing things they never did with Portnoy.
Again, we're talking about what the band has done for the fans, and I'd say putting out a divisive album, whether a concept album, a double album or both still is a negative. And this point of your's is really splitting hairs. While MP was with the band, they put out one pure concept album; three if you count the second disc of Six Degrees and Octavarium. And they did put out a double album, half of which is certainly a concept album on it's own.
There is no such thing as half of a concept album. The title track from Six Degrees is a song, not half a concept album.
Is Scenes from a Memory better than The Astonishing? Absolutely.
Is The Astonishing still really good, despite not being as good as Scenes? Absolutely.
That some diehard fans love. Not everyone loved them covering albums/songs, just like not everyone loved them playing Space Dye Vest.
Sure not everyone's going to love all the covers, but there were plenty that did and it was just one more extra that made DT stand out as different to them.
DT playing covers made them different? Er, no. DT was not the first band to play covers, ya know.
As for "playing just about everything else in the catalog," in the tours since they started touring with Mangini six years ago, Dream Theater has played, from their studio albums, around 90 of their songs. They have done a tremendous job of covering a shit load of songs from their career in the last six years, even if they do not rotate set lists like the early to mid 00s.
You know, for curiosity's sake, I took the time to compare the list of songs over equal time periods (2004-2010 vs. 2011-2017) because I wanted to see how true your statement is. Here's what I found (based on studio versions of the songs):
- from 2011-2017, they played 91 different songs (not including the No-Mac tracks) totaling 10 hours, 3 minutes + 3 covers for an additional 19 minutes = 94 songs/10h 22m
- from 2004-2010, they played 85 different songs totaling 11 hours, 33 minutes + 40 different complete covers for an additional 4 hours, 43 minutes (based on official bootlegs) = 125 songs/16h 16m
I'm surprised that there's not a bigger difference than there is for DT originals, but with MP there still is 1.5 hours of more material that was performed than without him. The higher number of songs from the MM-era is obviously because of TA's short songs. I know you'll argue that the covers shouldn't count, but I would say they should since they were part of the live set. The fact that MP managed to cover as much ground as he did with DT's originals and all those covers in that time period is a testament to him.
No, it is a testament to the band as a whole, as them continuing to play so many of their own songs is. The band as a whole gets props for how good they have been over the entire career at playing so many of their songs from year to year, tour to tour.
-
Maybe to you but DT are reasonable compared to other bands these days.
To me and many other people.. And, again, not because other bands are more expensive we should think DT prices are right.. Having said all this, I do admit and understand the reasons behind the high prices.. All the things they have to paid and such... but then again, that doesn't make the ticket price any cheaper either..
Also, I think we're running in circles......
-
Maybe to you but DT are reasonable compared to other bands these days.
To me and many other people.. And, again, not because other bands are more expensive we should think DT prices are right.. Having said all this, I do admit and understand the reasons behind the high prices.. All the things they have to paid and such... but then again, that doesn't make the ticket price any cheaper either..
Also, I think we're running in circles......
6 pages in, it was bound to be.
-
See, this is why I avoid DT-side even more than P/R. I don't know if this was mentioned or not - I only allowed myself the pain of the last page - but I'm guessing that the OP does not have a grasp on how basic economic factors such as supply/demand, market forces, fixed/variable costs etc... play in setting prices to determine not only A) break even but B) profit maximization ? I'm sure the promoter(s) has a handle on it, so let's leave pricing strategies to the professionals.
They they have such a handle on it that they can't sell the seats.
I do understand those factors but it doesn't seem to add up.
Slipknot played the same venue last year with Korn last year and the GA tickets were cheaper than DT's cheapest tickets. With their stage show too...
Like I said, I don't get it.
-
This is a BUSINESS, designed to make MONEY. You seem to think more bums in seats = more money. It's economics dude. They could lower the price, sell more seats, and make less money. You seemingly don't understand math/economics.
Let's say they sell 200 seats at the lowest price section for €50 (as you said). If they lower that to €30 as you say is "more reasonable", they have to sell 133 more tickets to make the same revenue. I don't know the demand in your market, but presumably the promoter does. Not to mention that the upper tier prices would likely need to be lowered.
-
And that is how you get it folks.
-
To be fair, a lot of the revenue is gained from the drinks and most contracts of performing artists allow a share of that as well from the venue.
I think 50 euros is a fairly reasonable price but when I wanted to see them the cheapest seat was about 70, significant difference. Dream Theater are definitely more expensive than other bands in the same popularity range - that's a fact - but I'm perfectly fine with that, as should every fan IMO. They offer something most bands don't which is a less show-oriented concert and make it more about the musicians performing the songs as excellent as possible, and from my experience that can be just as entertaining as a crazy energetic concert, if not more entertaining.
-
I don't know where else to put this, but I was just listening to Kraftwerk's "Boing Boom Tschak" and thought how badass it would be for JR and MM to cover this live. MM could lead into it at the end of his drum solo, him playing midi drums.
-
Still working on my multiquotes skills LOL
At KevShmev
There is no such thing as half of a concept album. The title track from Six Degrees is a song, not half a concept album.
Okay. My point stands that DT already did both things (a concept album and a double album) with MP, just not on the same album.
Is The Astonishing still really good, despite not being as good as Scenes? Absolutely
.
A sizable chunk of the fanbase would disagree with that statement.
DT playing covers made them different? Er, no. DT was not the first band to play covers, ya know.
Since when did I say they were the first ones to play covers? I never even made the claim that they were the first to cover entire albums. But doing those covers, in particular the full albums after doing a 1.5 hour set of their own material on the second night of a two-night stand on Evening With tours did make them stand out as different. It was something fans could count on happening once the tradition was established and new tour dates announced. How many other bands can you name that did the same thing?
No, it is a testament to the band as a whole, as them continuing to play so many of their own songs is. The band as a whole gets props for how good they have been over the entire career at playing so many of their songs from year to year, tour to tour.
True, but MP had pushed them to do this, seeing as he wrote all the setlists. And since then they have followed the pattern he establish when coming up with the mostly static setlists for each tour, not falling into the habit of playing at least 4-5 perennial favorites at every show on every tour like Rush, Maiden and many other bands.
-
Is The Astonishing still really good, despite not being as good as Scenes? Absolutely
.
A sizable chunk of the fanbase would disagree with that statement.
I don't think so.. Maybe you're confusing yourself with the fact that the majority has it in the last places of their ranking, but that's something else..
As for the covers, that would be another thing to do a poll for.. I, for one, don't like when they play covers; but this is just me and I don't have a single clue what's the general opinion about it..
-
Is The Astonishing still really good, despite not being as good as Scenes? Absolutely
.
A sizable chunk of the fanbase would disagree with that statement.
I don't think so.. Maybe you're confusing yourself with the fact that the majority has it in the last places of their ranking, but that's something else..
As for the covers, that would be another thing to do a poll for.. I, for one, don't like when they play covers; but this is just me and I don't have a single clue what's the general opinion about it..
All this for me as well. And, as you said it TOT, please people, stop generalizing.
B.Lee
-
Saw them twice on the Astonishing tour... saw them once and will see them again on the I&WaB tour so no I don't think the prices are too high..... hate the concept of golden circle though
The Astonoshing Album and tour is to me the best they have done yet and I have been a fan since I&W came out... saw them on that tour and most tours after
Sure playing a whole album as a cover is cool but I would rather want them to play their own material.
-
Is The Astonishing still really good, despite not being as good as Scenes? Absolutely
.
A sizable chunk of the fanbase would disagree with that statement.
I don't think so.. Maybe you're confusing yourself with the fact that the majority has it in the last places of their ranking, but that's something else..
As for the covers, that would be another thing to do a poll for.. I, for one, don't like when they play covers; but this is just me and I don't have a single clue what's the general opinion about it..
For me, it depends from band to band, and still in the heat of the moment a cover here and there is cool. During the Evening With tour for Train of Thought, they played Hallowed Be Thy Name at my show, as first encore, and being a big Maiden fan I loved it. But with DT, who have so many albums with so many (long) songs, I think that even the best of covers could be replaced by literally ANY song of their own catalog.
I liked when they slipped Enter Sandman at the end of As I Am in the current tour, little homages here and there are cool, but by now the back catalog is simply so vast to make room for covers... then again if at a concert they pull out a fantastic cover of a song I personally like, I sure wouldn't mind it that much.
-
So the Cardiff gig was a lot of fun - I had a bland and thought the singing was too notch.
The solution to the empty seats was to shuffle people in the crappy seats to them... I think this probably peeved off a few people that paid for the mid seat tickets when people that paid for the cheap ones got to sit in the highest bracket ones... I was near the front anyway so didn't care and, hey, good for those people I guess :)
-
So the Cardiff gig was a lot of fun - I had a bland and thought the singing was too notch.
The solution to the empty seats was to shuffle people in the crappy seats to them... I think this probably peeved off a few people that paid for the mid seat tickets when people that paid for the cheap ones got to sit in the highest bracket ones... I was near the front anyway so didn't care and, hey, good for those people I guess :)
I had that happen once before as well during the ADTOE tour. Paid $15 for a ticket and sat next to the people paying $60+.
-
Is The Astonishing still really good, despite not being as good as Scenes? Absolutely
.
A sizable chunk of the fanbase would disagree with that statement.
I don't think so.. Maybe you're confusing yourself with the fact that the majority has it in the last places of their ranking, but that's something else..
Is James LaBrie confused too?
Dream Theater's James Labrie says that "The Astonishing" was a bold and a courageous move, but that it also polarised band's fans.
Read more at: https://www.prog-sphere.com/specials/james-labrie-about-the-astonishing/
-
Why should he? What James said and what you said are two different things.
-
Agreed. Polarizing the fan base and saying most have it last place in the rankings aren't the same. I do agree that it did polarize the fans though. Plenty of people say it's the worst, but there are fans who also think it's the best or near the top. That is polarizing.
-
Plenty of people say it's the worst, but there are fans who also think it's the best or near the top. That is polarizing.
Exactly, and I think that's what Ministro was driving at (correct me if I'm wrong, Ministro). To me, "a sizable chunk" does not equate to the whole fanbase, most of it or even half of it. There's plenty of fans who feel TA is decent, mediocre, terrible, the worst etc. - in other words, less than "really good". So I don't think what Ministro is saying is unfair or untrue, tho it doesn't fit the majority of the fans here.
-
Plenty of people say it's the worst, but there are fans who also think it's the best or near the top. That is polarizing.
Exactly, and I think that's what Ministro was driving at (correct me if I'm wrong, Ministro). To me, "a sizable chunk" does not equate to the whole fanbase, most of it or even half of it. There's plenty of fans who feel TA is decent, mediocre, terrible, the worst etc. - in other words, less than "really good". So I don't think what Ministro is saying is unfair or untrue, tho it doesn't fit the majority of the fans here.
I have no issues or think there's anything wrong with Ministro's comments. I disagree more so with ToT. I do know many people place it last, but it's not the majority (although probably a sizeable amount) and JLB got it right. The album was bold and it polarized the fan base.
-
It feels like nearly every album post-6DOIT has been polarizing, to varying degrees.
-
Tbh, every album has been polarizing to some extent or other - the only two albums that HAVEN'T caused big "mass exodus" are Awake and SFAM. FII almost broke the band both through the internal struggles and through the reception from the fans. SFAM was the "saving grace", but I do remember SDOIT as a hugely controversial album when it was first released. So many people hated on the experimental sounding parts, and the heavieness of certain tracks. Some people only accepted the second disc as "good", others only the first disc. And TOT was even more so, due to the heaviness.
I mean, look at the interview my father did with MP in 2004, at 6:14: https://vimeo.com/87984609
-
Plenty of people say it's the worst, but there are fans who also think it's the best or near the top. That is polarizing.
Exactly, and I think that's what Ministro was driving at (correct me if I'm wrong, Ministro). To me, "a sizable chunk" does not equate to the whole fanbase, most of it or even half of it. There's plenty of fans who feel TA is decent, mediocre, terrible, the worst etc. - in other words, less than "really good". So I don't think what Ministro is saying is unfair or untrue, tho it doesn't fit the majority of the fans here.
You are sooo correct Setlist Scotty
-
Yes, the album might be polaziring, but that doesn't imply that half of the fanbase hates the album and the other half loves it.. I mean, that simplistic sentence wouldn't even work to put things in an easy way, first, because we don't know that; and second, because we do know at least that that's not the case, neither with TA nor with any other album that have "polarized" the fans..
However obvious it may seem, to think that an album is the worst one of a band doesn't mean you hate it.. And I repeat: we can't know this for sure, but the -little and subjective- knowledge *I* got to reach of the fanbase's opinion about TA tells me that KevShmev's posture is, at least, more accurate than MinistroRaven's..
But, for the last time, what we're all saying here can't be more than hunches, and this includes JLB or any other member of the band, unless they're making surveys to know this and more..
-
Yes, the album might be polaziring, but that doesn't imply that half of the fanbase hates the album and the other half loves it.. I mean, that simplistic sentence wouldn't even work to put things in an easy way, first, because we don't know that; and second, because we do know at least that that's not the case, neither with TA nor with any other album that have "polarized" the fans..
However obvious it may seem, to think that an album is the worst one of a band doesn't mean you hate it.
The issue is if a "sizable chunk of the fanbase" would disagree with the statement that TA is "really good" - *not* "half the fanbase hates the album." There are plenty of comments I've read online and conversations I've had with fellow DT fans that confirm they don't believe TA is "really good." How is that not clear to you?
-
Yes, the album might be polaziring, but that doesn't imply that half of the fanbase hates the album and the other half loves it.. I mean, that simplistic sentence wouldn't even work to put things in an easy way, first, because we don't know that; and second, because we do know at least that that's not the case, neither with TA nor with any other album that have "polarized" the fans..
However obvious it may seem, to think that an album is the worst one of a band doesn't mean you hate it.
The issue is if a "sizable chunk of the fanbase" would disagree with the statement that TA is "really good" - *not* "half the fanbase hates the album." There are plenty of comments I've read online and conversations I've had with fellow DT fans that confirm they don't believe TA is "really good." How is that not clear to you?
And how's not clear to you that I don't think what you think?...
Besides, I didn't say you, cramx3 or MinistroRaven are completely wrong.. I said that, from what *I* have read online (all of this can't be but purely subjetive at the end of the day) I'd say that your posture is not entirely right.. You are right about TA don't getting much love in general, and having those "plenty" (maybe) of negative reactions.. But saying that a sizable chunk of the fanbase think that way -or don't think is really good-... that's different, and from what I've read/heard, I wouldn't say such a thing..
No one can have an irrefutable truth about this, mostly because opinions, as negative or positive as they can be or might seem to be, can always change in any minute.. Put aside the fact that many, if not a sizable chunk :v, haven't still listened to TA the enough times to judging it well, and even they admit it..
-
And how's not clear to you that I don't think what you think?...
It's obvious you don't think what I think, but that doesn't mean that you're right. ;)
Besides, I didn't say you, cramx3 or MinistroRaven are completely wrong.. I said that, from what *I* have read online (all of this can't be but purely subjetive at the end of the day) I'd say that your posture is not entirely right.
So we are just mostly wrong then, yes? :P
You are right about TA don't getting much love in general, and having those "plenty" (maybe) of negative reactions.. But saying that a sizable chunk of the fanbase think that way -or don't think is really good-... that's different, and from what I've read/heard, I wouldn't say such a thing..
You're missing the point - me and Ministro are simply saying there is a significant number who don't believe TA is "really good" - that's all. Whether they think it's decent or the most vile piece of trash, all of them think it is less than "really good." And that's regardless of whether they've listened to the album 1 time or 100 times, or whether they've judged it well or judged it poorly - they have their own opinion of it.
-
It's obvious you don't think what I think, but that doesn't mean that you're right. ;)
No, it doesn't, and neither I said it does.. Actually, I've repeatedly been saying that none of us can be right about this.. They're just opinions about opinions and, therefore, they're still opinions..
So we are just mostly wrong then, yes? :P
Not being entirely right -these were my words- doesn't make you mostly wrong.. Let me fix your question to "Are we partly wrong?".. And let me answer it: from *my* notion and perspective, yes, you are..
You're missing the point - me and Ministro are simply saying there is a significant number who don't believe TA is "really good" - that's all. Whether they think it's decent or the most vile piece of trash, all of them think it is less than "really good." And that's regardless of whether they've listened to the album 1 time or 100 times, or whether they've judged it well or judged it poorly - they have their own opinion of it.
Ok, let's just restrict what otherwise could be a richer talk by only speaking in those terms.. I'm serious; if we do that, I'd still think what I said -that the number of fans who don't think TA is "really good" it is not that big; or, in other words, and I said it before: that KevShmev's posture is, at least, more accurate than MinistroRaven's-.. But I wasn't talking specifically in those single terms in my previous-previous comment, and that's when you confused my point (meaning: I wasn't talking about what these two users said, but what others said after)..
Also, I still think the factor of the times of listening to the album it is important to this whole issue.. You can't say 1 listen is the same as 100.. For what I've heard and read, I can say that TA is a grower, so it does matter..
-
Ok, let's just restrict what otherwise could be a richer talk by only speaking in those terms..
That's what I've been trying to say all this time! :lol
I'm serious; if we do that, I'd still think what I said -that the number of fans who don't think TA is "really good" it is not that big; or, in other words, and I said it before: that KevShmev's posture is, at least, more accurate than MinistroRaven's-.
Fair enough - let's agree to disagree, because apparently neither of us is going to convince the other.
You can't say 1 listen is the same as 100.. For what I've heard and read, I can say that TA is a grower, so it does matter..
Again, let's agree to disagree. But just to be clear, what you're speaking of is hypotheticals, not what the present reality is. Hypothetically I could eventually develop a love for Depeche Mode's album "Sounds of the Universe", but after several repeated listens, none of the tracks do anything for me. Maybe if I listen to the songs 100 times, I'll be won over, but frankly, I'd rather listen to their earlier stuff that I really enjoy rather than this album, just in the hopes that it will click with me. What would my opinion be? "They may have worked hard on the album, but I can't stand it. In my opinion, it sucks." And yet I'm sure there are plenty of fans who would tell me that the album grows on you. The same is true for any other band or any album. For what we are talking about (counting the feelings/opinions/reactions of people towards TA), hypotheticals don't count, only what people feel at the moment.
-
Progarchives ranking is 3.51. I've always felt that if you throw out the margins, the serial bashers and the serial supporters, you get
a decent snapshot of how an album is viewed by the fans.
1A and 1B) I&W ~ SFaM - 4.29
2) SDoiT - 4.14
3) Awake 4.11
4) ADToE - 3.85
5) 8V - 3.66
6) ToT - 3.58
7) TA - 3.51
8) BC&SL - 3.44
9A, 9B, 9C ~ FII, DT12, SC - 3.31
10) WDaDU - 3.20
So they tried something big, bold and grandiose (which is commendable) and so far it's landed in the bottom third of albums.
This sort of reaction is nothing new for DT. Awake threw people off big time after I&W. FII REALLY threw people off. Same
for ToT, 8V...etc. I remember reading many bad reviews about SDoiT at the time also. So no album is immune. I think the big
thing they need to figure out is...do they have something to say that they can convey with emotion and soul or is the tank
drained and deep down do they feel like they are just going through the motions, which happens to almost everyone who
has done the same job for almost 30 years. I think they need to dig down deep inside and write about things that impact them
on a personal level so that emotions comes through in the music.
-
Love how a lot of people on here commenting about DT shows don't actually go to the shows. I'm pretty sure at least one guy has stated in the past that he has not attended a show since MP left but still comments on the band lacking energy and lacking connection with the crowd. What is this based on, youtube videos?
I have been to every tour from FII onwards and there is no noticeable change in the connection with fans. There was a period in the early Roadrunner years where DT started to gain some younger hardcore metal fans and, yes the crowd was a bit livelier. The band have since moved back more towards their more melodic prog metal roots and we are back to more beard stroking people watching the show rather than big metal fans.
Set lists are static but I only tend to go to one show on each tour run so not really an issue for me or the vast majority of people. At the end of the day though I've seen the band in 2016 and 2017 and saw a completely different 3 hour sets so cannot have any complaints. Songs have been massively varied from tour to tour so again, I can't have any complaints.
Saw the recent show in Manchester and did not have any sensation that the band were miles back on the stage or disconnected although the pictures do show they were quite far back. It was the most connected I have ever felt to JLB, he was really engaging and sang his ass off and the band were as active as they have ever been. They have never been hugely active on stage as the stuff they play is kind of tricky. I can accept that there is less improvisation live and they tend to play the album versions of songs but there was more of this on this latest show with JP really seeming like he could let loose a few times and he was really incredible in this show.
I am not suggesting MP added nothing, he absolutely did, and, for sentimental reasons, I would loved him to be a part of these shows but there is not the gaping hole on stage that people would have you believe. DT are still an incredible live act and this show is definitely worth £50.00 of your money. I do get the people who don't like The Astonishing album and tour as it was such a departure for them and a big gamble. I don't think this should turn people off to the band though as I don't think for one second that this type of broadway musical style tunes will carry on to the next album.
Stop watching youtube and get out to a show on this historic tour.
-
The main way any album becomes a "grower" is repeat listens. Personally speaking, I don't care for TA at all. And, it's not going to be a "grower" for me simply because I don't have the time or desire to give it more repeat listens. I don't know if I'll ever listen to the album again.
For over two decades, DT has been my favorite band. For the next release, I'm mainly praying for what emtee described. I really hope the emotional well he mentioned has not run dry. If so, my days of caring about anything new from DT may be over. I have over 25 years of cherished music and concert experiences to hold onto. I don't care it it's proggy, metal or whatever. Selfishly speaking, I just want something that resonates with me personally.
-
do they have something to say that they can convey with emotion and soul or is the tank
drained and deep down do they feel like they are just going through the motions, which happens to almost everyone who
has done the same job for almost 30 years. I think they need to dig down deep inside and write about things that impact them
on a personal level so that emotions comes through in the music.
That's partially my problem with at least TA. I mean, the overall topic of the album is essentially "modern music sucks, old school is where it's at". When we slowly learned about the album before it came out, I was hoping for some really cool amalgamate of DT rock and electronic stuff, a battle between NOMACs and the militia. In the end I couldn't shake the feeling that JP couldn't do a good job at folding it into the musical story of TA because he's just not in touch with what's happening musically these days. It was left at a very superficial statement about modern music in the end.
-
You can't say 1 listen is the same as 100.. For what I've heard and read, I can say that TA is a grower, so it does matter..
Again, let's agree to disagree. But just to be clear, what you're speaking of is hypotheticals, not what the present reality is. Hypothetically I could eventually develop a love for Depeche Mode's album "Sounds of the Universe", but after several repeated listens, none of the tracks do anything for me. Maybe if I listen to the songs 100 times, I'll be won over, but frankly, I'd rather listen to their earlier stuff that I really enjoy rather than this album, just in the hopes that it will click with me. What would my opinion be? "They may have worked hard on the album, but I can't stand it. In my opinion, it sucks." And yet I'm sure there are plenty of fans who would tell me that the album grows on you. The same is true for any other band or any album. For what we are talking about (counting the feelings/opinions/reactions of people towards TA), hypotheticals don't count, only what people feel at the moment.
What I'm trying to say is precisely that we should be considering that factor too, and not stay with those static and poorly argued opinions.. The fact that you wouldn't prefer listening to an album that you didn't like in first listen doesn't mean everyone else would do that; and since the concept of "grower" exists, and you can have a lot of examples of it actually (and not hypotetically) happening, before in general -and especially with prog music-, and even now with DT's TA, you can't deny it's part of the reality..*
So yes, to think that people will like certain album after more listens might be hypotetical, but it's not less hypotetical to think that they won't like it with more listens..
The main way any album becomes a "grower" is repeat listens. Personally speaking, I don't care for TA at all. And, it's not going to be a "grower" for me simply because I don't have the time or desire to give it more repeat listens. I don't know if I'll ever listen to the album again.
See?.. This is what I've been reading over and over again.. They just don't care.. They don't say the album sucks, because they haven't listened it the enough times to judge it, and that's fine, everyone can do whatever they want with the music they listen or not, and I myself have done that with albums from other bands, and even with whole bands..
*For instance, artists like Steven Wilson, that I know many of you admire, I listened to some of his (solo and PT) albums and while I did like one than other song or moment, I didn't like the music as a whole, and that's why I haven't even tried since then to listen to more of his stuff.. So, now: the albums that I didn't listen of him, I could say that I don't care for them, and that I probably won't like them even if I'd listen to them 100 of times.... but can I say that I don't -actually- like them?.. Nope.. If I say it, that would be hypotetical..
-
When I think of a "grower" it is something that grows from "This is OK" to "This is pretty good" or "This is awesome". It's never something that grows from "This is awful". Because if it's awful, why would you listen to it that many times?
If you listen to something and you find it disappointing, it makes sense to give it another chance or two. But who listens to something they don't like 10 times to try to make themselves like it? Not me, and not anyone I know.
And I see no reason why you can't say that you don't like Steven Wilson. Why not? If you don't like him, you don't like him. No reason to keep giving him chances.
-
We can argue about it all day long, and to a great extent, that's fine. I mean, that's what a discussion forum is for (provided it is done within the rules and not just pointless bashing of each others' opinions). But at the end of the day, there really isn't much controversy.
It all boils down to this: The fan base is far too large and opinions on the album are far too diverse to make generalizations about how "the fans" feel about the album. All DT albums seem somewhat divisive in terms of how the fans react. When we're as close to the music as most of us who post on a forum tend to get, we tend to lose sight of how different from the mainstream DT's music is. There's a lot going on on any given album. So there are lots of reasons why people may or may not like an album. With The Astonishing, the band departed quite a bit from the norm and did something outside the box. So this album is even more divisive than the norm for DT. Nobody can really disagree with that.
But are fans, en masse, boycotting DT and hating what they did on this album? The numbers don't really support that. From an artistic standpoint, I think the album is most definitely a success in that they set out to accomplish something and did so to a level that I think they are, for the most part, completely satisfied with. Was it successful from a sales standpoint? I would still say yes. Granted, it may not have sold as many copies as they would like, and due to a variety of factors, it did not sell as many concert tickets as they would have liked. I get that. And the band gets that. But they still had a lot of happy fans at shows all over the world, and they toured quite a bit on this album. And I think that, while the band (and JP especially) would have loved it if TA became the band's most successful album to date and would have received resounding acclaim from the fan base, I don't think anyone in the band realistically expected that. But they shook things up, and even if the numbers may be somewhat below expectations, the band still came out of this fine. And most of the fan base that even disliked the album, from what I have seen, respect that the band had the drive and the guts to try something fresh, even if they may feel that the result fell flat.
So, bottom line for me is, while I can understand the vocal dislike of some, I don't get the more extreme statements people try to make about the fan base being divided over the album or the album being a failure or whatever. But, hey, still kinda cool that the band is done touring on the album and we're STILL talking about it. ;)
-
I just want to add, Scotty, Sounds Of The Universe is fantastic. :P
-
When I think of a "grower" it is something that grows from "This is OK" to "This is pretty good" or "This is awesome". It's never something that grows from "This is awful". Because if it's awful, why would you listen to it that many times?
Yeah, I dunno. It's pretty subjective how those kinds of things tend to work for me. If something is REALLY highly recommended, or if I feel like it is something I should like and that I am just missing something for some reason, I may give it more chances. For instance, I hated Redemption's last album when I first bought it. In general, it felt flat and lifeless, and didn't resonate with me. And there were also specific things I could point to that I disliked about it. But I like that group so much, and felt like I really should like the album more than I did. And on top of that, to hear Nick VanDyk talk about it a bit, I just felt like maybe I was missing the point. So I listened a few more times. And it started to click. I still rank it a good ways behind its two predecessor albums, but I ended up going from "I don't like this much at all" to "yeah, this is actually pretty good."
Another example I could point to for me is Maiden in general. I missed out on them in the '80s altogether. Over the years, I listened a bit here and there, but they did nothing for me. Then about 5 years ago, based on some strong recommendations, I gave them a serious shot. And if you were following the two Maiden threads (the regular one and the discography one), you know that I now consider myself a fan and have bought a bunch of their albums.
I agree with your general premise that if you just don't like something, it often doesn't make sense to re-listen and try to make it grow on you or try to make yourself find something you like. Wilson is a perfect example. I've heard enough from him to know his music doesn't interest me at all. There is plenty of music that I do like, so there is zero reason to spend time trying to find reasons to listen to him. Just saying that, often times, it isn't quite that black and white.
-
So give him another shot.
-
The point ---> O
O ) ) ) )
^You are here.
-
It's a joke.
But that was funny.
-
I know. ;)
-
Your confidence is sexy.
*waits for mainly DT-side regulars to get uncomfortable*
-
The main way any album becomes a "grower" is repeat listens. Personally speaking, I don't care for TA at all. And, it's not going to be a "grower" for me simply because I don't have the time or desire to give it more repeat listens. I don't know if I'll ever listen to the album again.
See?.. This is what I've been reading over and over again.. They just don't care.. They don't say the album sucks, because they haven't listened it the enough times to judge it, and that's fine, everyone can do whatever they want with the music they listen or not, and I myself have done that with albums from other bands, and even with whole bands..
OK, to settle this argument, Craig - what is your opinion of TA? Is it "really good," better than "really good" or worse than "really good?"
-
Tbh, every album has been polarizing to some extent or other - the only two albums that HAVEN'T caused big "mass exodus" are Awake and SFAM. FII almost broke the band both through the internal struggles and through the reception from the fans. SFAM was the "saving grace", but I do remember SDOIT as a hugely controversial album when it was first released. So many people hated on the experimental sounding parts, and the heavieness of certain tracks. Some people only accepted the second disc as "good", others only the first disc. And TOT was even more so, due to the heaviness.
I mean, look at the interview my father did with MP in 2004, at 6:14: https://vimeo.com/87984609
Wait, you're claiming I&W was polarizing and caused mass exodus?
-
Well, it *was* the downfall of the Charlie Fanclub©.
-
When I think of a "grower" it is something that grows from "This is OK" to "This is pretty good" or "This is awesome". It's never something that grows from "This is awful". Because if it's awful, why would you listen to it that many times?
If you listen to something and you find it disappointing, it makes sense to give it another chance or two. But who listens to something they don't like 10 times to try to make themselves like it? Not me, and not anyone I know.
And I see no reason why you can't say that you don't like Steven Wilson. Why not? If you don't like him, you don't like him. No reason to keep giving him chances.
Ok, what a "grower" means can be subjetive as well (I mean, as well as opinions).. But I wasn't saying that you should give 10 or 5 and not 2 chances to an album that you didn't like at first.. Again, that's on each one.. If by the fourth or fifth listen of TA I'd still have disliked it and it wouldn't have grown not a bit, then I wouldn't have kept listening to it, not at least until a few weeks maybe, but the probability of it to grow on me would've been almost nil..
About Wilson, yes, I don't like him (as I already said it: "I don't like his music as a whole", which is the same).. What I meant after was that I can't say that I don't like the albums that I haven't listened, or that I listened once and didn't care, from him or any other band.. That you don't care about something doesn't mean that you don't like it; and I think this is the case of many of those who don't think TA is good..
OK, to settle this argument, Craig - what is your opinion of TA? Is it "really good," better than "really good" or worse than "really good?"
But he already said he doesn't care for the album, and, besides, my argument doesn't depend on one particular opinion ;).. Anyways, I think my posture is clearer with what I responded above to hefdaddy42..
-
Wait, you're claiming I&W was polarizing and caused mass exodus?
Of course not - there wasn't really a fan base to speak of when IAW was released :P
-
@Noxon: Sorry for off topic, but: Did you see my PM?
-
We can argue about it all day long, and to a great extent, that's fine. I mean, that's what a discussion forum is for (provided it is done within the rules and not just pointless bashing of each others' opinions). But at the end of the day, there really isn't much controversy.
It all boils down to this: The fan base is far too large and opinions on the album are far too diverse to make generalizations about how "the fans" feel about the album. All DT albums seem somewhat divisive in terms of how the fans react. When we're as close to the music as most of us who post on a forum tend to get, we tend to lose sight of how different from the mainstream DT's music is. There's a lot going on on any given album. So there are lots of reasons why people may or may not like an album. With The Astonishing, the band departed quite a bit from the norm and did something outside the box. So this album is even more divisive than the norm for DT. Nobody can really disagree with that.
But are fans, en masse, boycotting DT and hating what they did on this album? The numbers don't really support that. From an artistic standpoint, I think the album is most definitely a success in that they set out to accomplish something and did so to a level that I think they are, for the most part, completely satisfied with. Was it successful from a sales standpoint? I would still say yes. Granted, it may not have sold as many copies as they would like, and due to a variety of factors, it did not sell as many concert tickets as they would have liked. I get that. And the band gets that. But they still had a lot of happy fans at shows all over the world, and they toured quite a bit on this album. And I think that, while the band (and JP especially) would have loved it if TA became the band's most successful album to date and would have received resounding acclaim from the fan base, I don't think anyone in the band realistically expected that. But they shook things up, and even if the numbers may be somewhat below expectations, the band still came out of this fine. And most of the fan base that even disliked the album, from what I have seen, respect that the band had the drive and the guts to try something fresh, even if they may feel that the result fell flat.
So, bottom line for me is, while I can understand the vocal dislike of some, I don't get the more extreme statements people try to make about the fan base being divided over the album or the album being a failure or whatever. But, hey, still kinda cool that the band is done touring on the album and we're STILL talking about it. ;)
I think this is the most accurate assessment of the album and I am saying that as someone that kinda hated it. I'm honestly surprised as many people like it as they did but also the albums seemed to hit a little below expectations. It was in no way a flop. It just wasn't the success they had hoped for.
With that said, DT gave us what we wanted: A concept double album. They just didn't give me what I really wanted: a concept double album that I liked. I can deal with that and while I wish them all the success in the world, I'm *somewhat* relieved it wasn't a bigger success because I don't think I would attend another show with even half the songs from TA. As it stands, they have chosen a few of the best from that album for the current set so I'm A-OK with that.
-
@Noxon: Sorry for off topic, but: Did you see my PM?
I did, but as you are aware (by the reciept of the package) the turnaround time for my responses is about 1.5 years ;)
Nah, i'll get back to you soon.
-
:lol
-
I for the most part agree with the most recent posts. In the end, you will always find someone who thinks the new album is the peak of their career, and you'll find someone who says it's the bottom of their career. On a Dream Theater Forum, that's to be expected, and we even have an informal rule for it here: "for every weird opinion about DT, wait long enough and you'll see it posted eventually".
What brings in the monies and fills the ranks aren't the DTFers, it's the mushy mass that doesn't view DT as their favorite band, but still will check out a new album, and if they liked it, will try to see the band live. For TA, that mushy mass seems to have placed TA in the lower half of things, and I think we're still seeing the outcome of that. DT used to be able to comfortably do two runs through Europe, but for both the TA tour and the IAW tour now, the second run is thinning out.
What I'm afraid of is that this negative experience to their monumental effort will make them play it safe for the next album. I've always said that while I don't like TA, I totally appreciate them taking a chance. I hope money considerations force them into a safe path.
-
OK, to settle this argument, Craig - what is your opinion of TA? Is it "really good," better than "really good" or worse than "really good?"
If you want me to use your general terms, TA is "worse than "really good"". If you want me to be more specific, TA is (IMO) the worst James-era album DT has released.
-
Love how a lot of people on here commenting about DT shows don't actually go to the shows. I'm pretty sure at least one guy has stated in the past that he has not attended a show since MP left but still comments on the band lacking energy and lacking connection with the crowd. What is this based on, youtube videos?
I have been to every tour from FII onwards and there is no noticeable change in the connection with fans. There was a period in the early Roadrunner years where DT started to gain some younger hardcore metal fans and, yes the crowd was a bit livelier. The band have since moved back more towards their more melodic prog metal roots and we are back to more beard stroking people watching the show rather than big metal fans.
Set lists are static but I only tend to go to one show on each tour run so not really an issue for me or the vast majority of people. At the end of the day though I've seen the band in 2016 and 2017 and saw a completely different 3 hour sets so cannot have any complaints. Songs have been massively varied from tour to tour so again, I can't have any complaints.
Saw the recent show in Manchester and did not have any sensation that the band were miles back on the stage or disconnected although the pictures do show they were quite far back. It was the most connected I have ever felt to JLB, he was really engaging and sang his ass off and the band were as active as they have ever been. They have never been hugely active on stage as the stuff they play is kind of tricky. I can accept that there is less improvisation live and they tend to play the album versions of songs but there was more of this on this latest show with JP really seeming like he could let loose a few times and he was really incredible in this show.
I am not suggesting MP added nothing, he absolutely did, and, for sentimental reasons, I would loved him to be a part of these shows but there is not the gaping hole on stage that people would have you believe. DT are still an incredible live act and this show is definitely worth £50.00 of your money. I do get the people who don't like The Astonishing album and tour as it was such a departure for them and a big gamble. I don't think this should turn people off to the band though as I don't think for one second that this type of broadway musical style tunes will carry on to the next album.
Stop watching youtube and get out to a show on this historic tour.
Great post! :tup :tup
Honestly, I think there are some (a handful or so of people on this forum, for one) who want to not like anything without Portnoy. These are peeps who are always the first ones to stick up for Portnoy whenever there is controversy or anything regarding him, and surprise, surprise, these same posters rarely have much good to say about the music in the Mangini era. It's kind of sad, really. It's like they are going out of their way to not like music by one of their favorite bands. ???
-
Love how a lot of people on here commenting about DT shows don't actually go to the shows. I'm pretty sure at least one guy has stated in the past that he has not attended a show since MP left but still comments on the band lacking energy and lacking connection with the crowd. What is this based on, youtube videos?
I have been to every tour from FII onwards and there is no noticeable change in the connection with fans. There was a period in the early Roadrunner years where DT started to gain some younger hardcore metal fans and, yes the crowd was a bit livelier. The band have since moved back more towards their more melodic prog metal roots and we are back to more beard stroking people watching the show rather than big metal fans.
Set lists are static but I only tend to go to one show on each tour run so not really an issue for me or the vast majority of people. At the end of the day though I've seen the band in 2016 and 2017 and saw a completely different 3 hour sets so cannot have any complaints. Songs have been massively varied from tour to tour so again, I can't have any complaints.
Saw the recent show in Manchester and did not have any sensation that the band were miles back on the stage or disconnected although the pictures do show they were quite far back. It was the most connected I have ever felt to JLB, he was really engaging and sang his ass off and the band were as active as they have ever been. They have never been hugely active on stage as the stuff they play is kind of tricky. I can accept that there is less improvisation live and they tend to play the album versions of songs but there was more of this on this latest show with JP really seeming like he could let loose a few times and he was really incredible in this show.
I am not suggesting MP added nothing, he absolutely did, and, for sentimental reasons, I would loved him to be a part of these shows but there is not the gaping hole on stage that people would have you believe. DT are still an incredible live act and this show is definitely worth £50.00 of your money. I do get the people who don't like The Astonishing album and tour as it was such a departure for them and a big gamble. I don't think this should turn people off to the band though as I don't think for one second that this type of broadway musical style tunes will carry on to the next album.
Stop watching youtube and get out to a show on this historic tour.
Great post! :tup :tup
Honestly, I think there are some (a handful or so of people on this forum, for one) who want to not like anything without Portnoy. These are peeps who are always the first ones to stick up for Portnoy whenever there is controversy or anything regarding him, and surprise, surprise, these same posters rarely have much good to say about the music in the Mangini era. It's kind of sad, really. It's like they are going out of their way to not like music by one of their favorite bands. ???
Hence my previous remark on stereotypical opinions. Yet, I would also extend it to those who think DT can do no wrong. With that being said, being a DTFer has become exhausting these days.
B.Lee
-
It feels like nearly every album post-6DOIT has been polarizing, to varying degrees.
Six degrees?
-
As someone who talks to many many fans both online and at concerts etc, I can say that the amount of love out there for TA is much greater than what you see on facebook or here. And on the IAW tour right now, the TA songs are recieved well. But DT has been on a steady decline in popularity ANYHOW since Octavarium.
-
Great post! :tup :tup
Honestly, I think there are some (a handful or so of people on this forum, for one) who want to not like anything without Portnoy. These are peeps who are always the first ones to stick up for Portnoy whenever there is controversy or anything regarding him, and surprise, surprise, these same posters rarely have much good to say about the music in the Mangini era. It's kind of sad, really. It's like they are going out of their way to not like music by one of their favorite bands. ???
I'm definitely a bigger fan of the MP-era DT. However, the last few albums with him weren't my favorites. AND, there is definitely MM-era DT material that I like. I believe one thing that factors into my liking the MP material more is that I had more time to digest the music. I would sit down with each album and its CD booklet after I got it, reading the lyrics, really listening to the music. Nowadays, music is pretty much background noise - in the car, mowing the lawn, sitting at my desk at work. There's really no dedicated listening time. So, I just haven't had the time to let it all sink in. That being said, I still like the first 2 MM-DT albums infinitely more than TA.
I don't pretend to know what "most" fans think about TA, the current tours or incarnation of the band. I only speak on behalf of myself.
-
But DT has been on a steady decline in popularity ANYHOW since Octavarium.
That's true, but in my limited experience this has only really started affecting concert attendance in the past few years. It was for the DT12 tour where my brother in Germany told me the concert he went to (Gelsenkirchen Amphitheater) was barely half full. A German DT concert not filling up before that was unheard of.
-
At least in Italy the attendance is always the same. I see them live since 1999, they always play the same venue, and I never noticed any significant change in the volumes. The place is always, if not packed, still quite full.
-
I don't even attempt to make statements regarding their draw, my window of it is pretty small, basically when they come close to Pittsburgh, I go see them. They have played the same place two tours in a row (DT12 tour and TA tour) and it was sold out both times. Before that, they played an outdoor venue that doesn't exist anymore, but probably drew about the same. Going back further than that, I saw them open for IM and do a one-off on that tour.
Actually now that I think of it, the smallest crowd I ever saw them play to was in Buffalo on the Progressive Nation tour in support of SC. They played the same size theater there that they have been playing in Pittsburgh, only they didn't fill it on that tour.
-
I don't pretend to know what "most" fans think about TA
I guess you don't pretend to have the answer... :neverusethis:
But now, being serious, I don't think any of us pretend to be doing that.. We're all just guessing.. ;)
-
As someone who talks to many many fans both online and at concerts etc, I can say that the amount of love out there for TA is much greater than what you see on facebook or here. And on the IAW tour right now, the TA songs are recieved well. But DT has been on a steady decline in popularity ANYHOW since Octavarium.
I've reiterated that multiple times here. The fan base in the forum is less than 1% of the actual fans out there, so using this place as a microcosm of the whole is moronic.
-
I don't think anyone is doing that..
-
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/54/b2/3f/54b23fb44e686fa030db901c8a2f717d.gif)
-
As someone who talks to many many fans both online and at concerts etc, I can say that the amount of love out there for TA is much greater than what you see on facebook or here. And on the IAW tour right now, the TA songs are recieved well. But DT has been on a steady decline in popularity ANYHOW since Octavarium.
I've reiterated that multiple times here. The fan base in the forum is less than 1% of the actual fans out there, so using this place as a microcosm of the whole is moronic.
One thing that I remember from statistic classes at high school is that once you get a large enough pool, the predictions you can make from said pool are reliable, that's why exit polls, more or less, get the elections right.
Now, we have to determine if this forum is a pool large enough, and as ToT-147 said no one is doing that anyway, but the idea that a small section can account for the rest of the "population" is not THAT absurd.
-
But you also have to account for bias and the sampling method. Using a Dream Theater forum to gauge any useful information about the band's public perception is never going to give you useful results, no matter how large.
-
As someone who talks to many many fans both online and at concerts etc, I can say that the amount of love out there for TA is much greater than what you see on facebook or here. And on the IAW tour right now, the TA songs are recieved well. But DT has been on a steady decline in popularity ANYHOW since Octavarium.
I've reiterated that multiple times here. The fan base in the forum is less than 1% of the actual fans out there, so using this place as a microcosm of the whole is moronic.
One thing that I remember from statistic classes at high school is that once you get a large enough pool, the predictions you can make from said pool are reliable, that's why exit polls, more or less, get the elections right.
Now, we have to determine if this forum is a pool large enough, and as ToT-147 said no one is doing that anyway, but the idea that a small section can account for the rest of the "population" is not THAT absurd.
This forum is certainly not a large enough pool. How many active posters are there on the DT-side? Compare that to the tens of thousand of fans around the world. We're a drop of water that is the DT swimming pool.
And if you haven't seen people use this forum as a microcosm for the rest of the world, maybe you've unknowingly glanced over it because it seemed insignificant to you.
-
But DT has been on a steady decline in popularity ANYHOW since Octavarium.
That's true, but in my limited experience this has only really started affecting concert attendance in the past few years. It was for the DT12 tour where my brother in Germany told me the concert he went to (Gelsenkirchen Amphitheater) was barely half full. A German DT concert not filling up before that was unheard of.
Really!? I thought they got a huge bump when they signed for Roadrunner and released SC...?