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Dream Theater => Dream Theater => Topic started by: aglenn01 on March 24, 2017, 08:27:40 PM
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First off, I loved M. Portnoy; was one of the first things that made DT stand out to me years ago (I discovered DT in about 2001; six degrees blew me away). But when I listen to DT now, I hear absolutely no fall off. In fact, as much as I liked MP, MM absolutely destroys in in almost every recording. I was listening to the Breaking the 4th Wall today, and I'm thinking about how crazy the old material sounds with MM doing it. The Scenes stuff is great. I struggle to understand why people feel like MM isn't holding up his end??
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Not really rocket science. MP had a very immediate, visceral style that directly connected with people. MM's playing is more deliberate, abstract. Some people really enjoy that, some people don't.
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I just want a better drum sound. TA was a step in the right direction, but the cymbals get buried and the drums just don't sound natural. I'm hoping the next album takes the the next step. Regardless, I still like Mangini
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Many MM detractors are just people who can't accept MP is gone, which is sad, considering it happened more than 6 years ago. I agree with the OP, Mangini is a beast of a drummer and, tbh, I find his patterns much more interesting than anything MP has been doing in the past years. Mangini's drum lines inspire me to think of the drums in a different way, which I enjoy a lot :hefdaddy
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I used to be a huge MM fan until Erwinrafael convinced me not to be. Not sure why that dude hates Mangini so much, but it rubbed off I guess.
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:lol
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I used to be a huge MM fan until Erwinrafael convinced me not to be. Not sure why that dude hates Mangini so much, but it rubbed off I guess.
:rollin
They are very different drummers. MP loves playing around with the snare. MM loves playing around with the bass drum making the snare like a metronome. MP loves opening and closing hi-hats to color his cymbal playing. MM loves to use cymbals of different tones to achieve the same effect. MP loves making airdrummable fills. MM loves following multiple instruments using his amazing limb independence, which is not airdrummable at all. MP excels in quiet moments but could have some problems with more extreme playing like blast beats. MM make extreme playing sound effortless but sometimes sound stiff in quiet moments.
The funny thing about this is that during the drummer auditions, a lot said that DT went safe choosing the drummer who is most like Portnoy. WRONG. :rollin
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The funny thing about this is that during the drummer auditions, a lot said that DT went safe choosing the drummer who is most like Portnoy. WRONG. :rollin
To be fair, at the time...that IS what they basically said. Even though obviously things went a different direction after.
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Yeah, I guess for people like me who are familiar with the styles of both drummers, I took that statement as a bit of PR to sort of assure the fans. Little did the fans know that they were actually getting somebody quite different...
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I don't recall anybody saying he was most like Portnoy, just that he was the safest option, which has proven to be true imo. I still would have loved to hear what DT + Minnemann would have been like. Aside from those two, the other options either weren't ever going to happen, or weren't a great fit for the band.
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I don't understand how you struggle to understand that other people may have a different taste than yours and prefer Portnoy instead of Mangini.
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I don't understand that you don't understand that this is a topic that has been talked about for a long time ChuckSteak?
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I don't understand. I don't feel that Mike deserves this. What did he do wrong? I just don't understand.
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I don't recall anybody saying he was most like Portnoy, just that he was the safest option, which has proven to be true imo.
I think the statement that's being misconstrued here is that MM was seemingly the one most willing MP's parts as-is, I.e. down to the T. Everybody else in the audition had at least some twist to it.
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I don't recall anybody saying he was most like Portnoy, just that he was the safest option, which has proven to be true imo.
I think the statement that's being misconstrued here is that MM was seemingly the one most willing MP's parts as-is, I.e. down to the T. Everybody else in the audition had at least some twist to it.
That's definitely a big part of it, which I'm personally glad they considered a priority. Even as it is, there are some parts that deviate too much for me, and some of those other players had much more different approaches to the music.
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I've always said that Portnoy's drumming had a personality. Mangini is a phenomenal drummer, but his drummer, while extremely technical, is more by the numbers and in a way, keeping the beat.
I love double kick drumming, and find myself adding it to songs while tapping along to them, but Mangini overdid it on The Astonishing. I agree on the robotic nature of his playing, and while it isn't a deal breaker, it's definitely noticeable when compared to earlier songs with Portnoy.
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I've always said that Portnoy's drumming had a personality. Mangini is a phenomenal drummer, but his drummer, while extremely technical, is more by the numbers and in a way, keeping the beat.
This is one of the criticisms I don't really get. Which other drummer complements multiple instruments at the same time like Mangini does? Which other drummer goes up and down scales in melodic runs? Shifts from lower to higher-toned rides and hi-hats depending on changes in the song keys? Uses the bass drum to establish the groove as much as Mangini does? Plays ghost notes on two hi-hats? Uses bursts of single-stroke speed in his cymbals to complement fast riffs? Plays two different snare rolls simultaneously to simulate a military marching band?
Plays blast beats in a swing-jazz section?
If by-the-numbers means following some sort of rule book followed by many drummers, I would like to know what rule book that is and who are the other drummers who use it. The reason he's actually not very air-drummable is because his playing is not by-the-numbers at all.
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I don't understand how you struggle to understand that other people may have a different taste than yours and prefer Portnoy instead of Mangini.
I think that's perfectly fine, tastes and all. The sad thing for me, though, is how people still blatantly make that preference known in every Youtube post in the official Dream Theater channel, every Facebook post in the official DT FB account, and worst, in almost all posts Mangini makes in his Facebook account.
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I've always said that Portnoy's drumming had a personality. Mangini is a phenomenal drummer, but his drummer, while extremely technical, is more by the numbers and in a way, keeping the beat.
This is one of the criticisms I don't really get. Which other drummer complements multiple instruments at the same time like Mangini does? Which other drummer goes up and down scales in melodic runs? Shifts from lower to higher-toned rides and hi-hats depending on changes in the song keys? Uses the bass drum to establish the groove as much as Mangini does? Plays ghost notes on two hi-hats? Uses bursts of single-stroke speed in his cymbals to complement fast riffs? Plays two different snare rolls simultaneously to simulate a military marching band?
Plays blast beats in a swing-jazz section?
If by-the-numbers means following some sort of rule book followed by many drummers, I would like to know what rule book that is and who are the other drummers who use it. The reason he's actually not very air-drummable is because his playing is not by-the-numbers at all.
His playing isn't as "fun" as Portnoy's. I understand that drumming is his passion, his life, but by making his parts as technical as they can possibly be, he's sucking all the fun out of it. I know he thinks the exact opposite, but that's just my opinion. Gavin Harrison is super technical, but he still manages to sound organic. Not everyone cares about all that stuff you listed. Clearly it doesn't add much to the songs for me. I like the albums with Mangini just fine (probably more than most fans), but his drumming sticks out like a sore thumb. And no, I don't think he should just copy Portnoy, but there is clearly an element missing. I think The Astonishing would have benefited more from an organic drummer.
I like Mangini. His performances aren't bad at all. I just like the way Portnoy sounded more.
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Yeah, tastes and opinions will vary, I love both drummers, but I do think the differences are noticeable, others have already outlined those differences better than I could.
Production isn't everything, but I still wonder if people's opinions of MM would be different if all the records he's played on had a drum sound the quality level of FII or SDOIT. To me, that stuff makes a difference in my impression of the player.
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His playing isn't as "fun" as Portnoy's. I understand that drumming is his passion, his life, but by making his parts as technical as they can possibly be, he's sucking all the fun out of it. I know he thinks the exact opposite, but that's just my opinion. Gavin Harrison is super technical, but he still manages to sound organic. Not everyone cares about all that stuff you listed. Clearly it doesn't add much to the songs for me. I like the albums with Mangini just fine (probably more than most fans), but his drumming sticks out like a sore thumb. And no, I don't think he should just copy Portnoy, but there is clearly an element missing. I think The Astonishing would have benefited more from an organic drummer.
I like Mangini. His performances aren't bad at all. I just like the way Portnoy sounded more.
That I could imagine. I guess I was just thrown off by the "by-the-numbers" comment.
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I feel this very much relies on the super-vague concept of "is it coming together". MM does a lot of really impressive things, and he spends a lot of effort on making sure it plays well with the rest of the band, so on paper it should be magnificent. But, there is a lot of music out there that supposedly does everything right, but it never comes together into something interesting. Mind you, it's never bad what he plays for sure. But in 3 albums there's not been a single instance where I thought "damn that was some tasty drumming". With MP there was at least one instance per album.
Production isn't everything, but I still wonder if people's opinions of MM would be different if all the records he's played on had a drum sound the quality level of FII or SDOIT. To me, that stuff makes a difference in my impression of the player.
I have wondered the same. It's a shame MM has never done a playthrough video, I think seeing, and hearing, what he does might sway a lot of people.
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Production isn't everything, but I still wonder if people's opinions of MM would be different if all the records he's played on had a drum sound the quality level of FII or SDOIT. To me, that stuff makes a difference in my impression of the player.
I have wondered the same. It's a shame MM has never done a playthrough video, I think seeing, and hearing, what he does might sway a lot of people.
I think I've seen a couple. There was one of The Enemy Inside a while back I think. That being said, if I was MM, I'd be doing the same thing MP did, filming all the tracking and releasing it. It really brings the parts alive.
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To me, portnoy was always getting the crowd going, standing up while drumming, etc. To me, Mangini is just behind that huge kit and JUST drums..He doesn't add much to the live shows.
Plus of course MP wrote some incredible songs. ACoS, 12 steps etc.
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Plus of course MP wrote the lyrics to some incredible songs. ACoS, 12 steps etc.
There, that is more accurate.
His playing isn't as "fun" as Portnoy's. I understand that drumming is his passion, his life, but by making his parts as technical as they can possibly be, he's sucking all the fun out of it. I know he thinks the exact opposite, but that's just my opinion. Gavin Harrison is super technical, but he still manages to sound organic. Not everyone cares about all that stuff you listed. Clearly it doesn't add much to the songs for me. I like the albums with Mangini just fine (probably more than most fans), but his drumming sticks out like a sore thumb. And no, I don't think he should just copy Portnoy, but there is clearly an element missing. I think The Astonishing would have benefited more from an organic drummer.
I like Mangini. His performances aren't bad at all. I just like the way Portnoy sounded more.
I agree with this, for the most part. Granted, I would much rather have Mangini in the band right now than Portnoy, since he doesn't bring all kinds of baggage, but his playing, while beastly, like you said isn't as fun as Portnoy's. I am sure if I would appreciate the subtleties of his playing a lot more if I were a drummer or a musician.
Long story short, Mangini is a great drummer and a good fit for the band currently. Works for me. :tup :tup
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this is a topic that has been talked about for a long time ChuckSteak?
That's precisely why I don't understand people still talking about it. I thought that after a couple of years they would just accept that some like Mangini and some like Portnoy and move on with their lives.
I think that's perfectly fine, tastes and all. The sad thing for me, though, is how people still blatantly make that preference known in every Youtube post in the official Dream Theater channel, every Facebook post in the official DT FB account, and worst, in almost all posts Mangini makes in his Facebook account.
I don't like seeing those kind of comments everywhere, but probably they will keep saying it. Unfortunately, nothing we can do about that.
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I really don´t like the last two albums, I don´t like that they play live to a click track, they don´t rotate set lists like they used to... all that happened since Mike left.
I don´t hate Mangini at all, but with Portnoy DT was a better band.
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I'm sure if Rush had a message board in 1974 people would complain about Peart.
"He's too serious when he plays, Rutsey was having more fun"
"He way over plays, doesn't fit the song"
"He moved them away from their good rock songs"
"His lyrics are so nerdy, it's embarrassing"
"No Rutsey...no Rush"
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I'm sure if Rush had a message board in 1974 people would complain about Peart.
"He's too serious when he plays, Rutsey was having more fun"
"He way over plays, doesn't fit the song"
"He moved them away from their good rock songs"
"His lyrics are so nerdy, it's embarrassing"
"No Rutsey...no Rush"
:lol
No doubt.
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:lol. So true.
As others have said, I think the production on the drums have hurt MM.
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Love the RUSH comment, post Rutsey, etc.. maybe in a few years we'll get there with MM vs MP. My original post stirred up some good discussion, which was the intent. Thanks to Rumbo, obv anyone on this board in the last decade knows you are the man. My whole point, which I feel may have been missed by some folks, is that MM is a fanfuckintastic drummer who should never be dismissed as not delivering in today's DT. It's no longer about MM vs MP...those days are gone now. The fact that so many people feel like DT isn't the same just proves how important the drum is to the overall sound of the band. Again, i loved MP, one of the things that originally drew me into DT was the drumming from MP, but I cannot dismiss current DT just because MP is not in the band. MM is playing the shit out of MP parts, sometimes changing some things which makes it different to listen to, and his stuff on his records is outstanding. Not to get into a MM vs MP issue, but after seeing the raw MM playing of "Enemy Inside" on that "tiny" kit, I can say that I've yet to see a better rock/metal drummer (maybe Jarzombek ) in my lifetime.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDTYWwqchhQ
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We need to consider thar Mangini came to the band inmediately after the only drummer for the band at the time, a founding member who had been in the band for 25 years and was integral to the production of the albums, quit, so MM didn't only have to take care of the drumming (which is already a quite difficult task), but also had to endure all the pressure to please fans all over the world who have a very high standard of what to expect from the Dream Theater drummer. Not only that, but he still has to deal with all the comparisons, bad comments, etc etc that people say on almost every post by the band, plus, all the bad comments about him and current DT on Portnoy's social media accounts, that MP usually gives likes and RT. That's not a light weight to carry.
Having said that, I think MM has done a GREAT job dealing with all of this. Just imagine if any other drummer got the gig, I'm not entirely sure he could've taken as much as Mangini has. This just shows how much dedication and hard work he has put into DT, and, regardless if you like him and his drumming or not, we all should respect that.
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You want an honest response?
It's been 7 years. 3 albums. That's way more than most drummers have to prove their worth. No matter how you slice it, MM has been disappointing.
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:facepalm:
I think you completely missed gzarruk's point.
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Have I ? What I read into gzarruk's post is just another elaborate apologetic for why MM's playing is really awesome while it doesn't sound like it.
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Mangini lacks charisma in his playing. He's trying way too hard to sound like a robot. He even said his latest practice routine was trying to hit the snare the same way every time.
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Have I ? What I read into gzarruk's post is just another elaborate apologetic for why MM's playing is really awesome while it doesn't sound like it.
His post seemed mostly about how good Mangini's attitude has been and how well he has handled taking over for a guy who had been in the band for 20+ years. It was more about his handling of the situation than his actual drumming. That is how I read it. We can quibble about how Mangini plays and how his drums sound till the cows come home, but a lot of drummers would have cracked under the pressure by now and reacted in a negative way to a lot of the unfair shit he gets on social media simply because he replaced Mike Portnoy.
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Have I ? What I read into gzarruk's post is just another elaborate apologetic for why MM's playing is really awesome while it doesn't sound like it.
His post seemed mostly about how good Mangini's attitude has been and how well he has handled taking over for a guy who had been in the band for 20+ years. It was more about his handling of the situation than his actual drumming. That is how I read it. We can quibble about how Mangini plays and how his drums sound till the cows come home, but a lot of drummers would have cracked under the pressure by now and reacted in a negative way to a lot of the unfair shit he gets on social media simply because he replaced Mike Portnoy.
Good post Kev, I agree. The worst thing we have got from MM is what, one cranky interview? I'd say that's pretty good all things considered. Once again, not talking about his playing, just his attitude.
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My first introduction to MM was the documovie "a drummers dream" on Netflix. If you haven't seen it, do it. It shows what Mike is like outside (this was before) DT. And you can see how amazing he is.
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My first introduction to MM was the documovie "a drummers dream" on Netflix. If you haven't seen it, do it. It shows what Mike is like outside (this was before) DT. And you can see how amazing he is.
Mine was seeing him play with Extreme on the Waiting For The Punchline tour.
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Same here, King. I love that album.
I also saw him at the Hatch Shell in Boston with Tribe of Judah. Gary was climbing the scaffolding and MM was doing all kinds of antics. Fun show
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My buddy demoed few songs for TOJ before they went with MM.
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mangini just posted a few photos of a session he's doing with Dave Grohl. The most interesting part wil probably his drumsound, which he says he's really digging. Maybe a good way to show the band what he thinks his drums should be like?? :)
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I really hope MM gets a chance to show what he really thinks his drums should sound like.
That way, if people still don't like the sound, then the whole "but it's not his fault! it's the engineers!" can finally be laid to rest.
Just never got the idea that a great drummer automatically as perfect taste in drum sound. I haven't heard a single thing that indicates MM and I agree on what makes a good drum sound. It'll be good to finally be able to state that opinion without people telling me that I have no idea what MM wants a drum to sound like.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C73cAhFVQAA7FKp.jpg)
That's studio 606 with the Sound City Neve Mixing Board.
They made a movie all about the studio and that board and since that movie - Foo Fighters have used it precisely 0 times.
If the Foos next album isn't recorded in their own personal studio with the Sound City Neve they made a movie about - then something is wrong.
Or they made the movie just to advertise their studio.
I still think they made the Sonic Highways movie first and the songs were an afterthought.
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Well even though I hate Pearl and I don't play Zildjian..........that is just a boner inducing picture right there.
Just lie to me and tell me I'm playing Tama and Sabian and I would go to town on that thing.
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Tama and Sabian
:drool: :zydar:
fk yh I loved my tama drums.
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I'll assume it's a smart business move to allow bands to record in his studio. A second income, job and something he loves.....
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It boggles my mind why they made such a fuss about it and a movie and still havent actually used it yet for a Foo Fighters album.
It would be like Kirk Hammett making a huge deal about getting the Peter Green Les Paul, made a film about it and then never actually used it on an album or tour.
Also I never realised - unless he's changed it - that his cymbals are in 3 rows of 3 high.
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Right side looks 3, 3, and 2.
Left side is 3, 2, 2.
TRY AGAIN KOTOWBOY!
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Right side looks 3, 3, and 2.
Left side is 3, 2, 2.
TRY AGAIN KOTOWBOY!
I already changed it to what I meant the first time :P
If I could have any drummer's set up it would be Lars Ulrich...But his S&M kit with the extra splashes on. That kit sounded amazing. And it wasn't over the top.
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Yea that is a really cool set (still had a ride too!) and didn't have coated tom heads.
I think if I had to pick ANY famous kit, it'd be one of Portnoys. Maybe the left side (his left) of the double monster kit. I only like 3 rack toms, and his purple monster had 4. But yea, just ditch the small side of the big monster kit and I think that'd be my fav.
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MP's monster kit always seemed to be set up just right. Everything was in reach and nothing was hard to hit. It was perfect. I'd go with his BC&SL kit with the Bubinga shells
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The left side. . .
I'm not gonna let anyone tell me he NEEDED the right side for any reason other than to be excessive for the sake of it.
" but he needed different drums to play different songs "
Oh i'm sure MP gave that reason but if he played it on the main kit and the other kit never existed - nobody would say anything.
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I thought he always said he liked to play older songs on the smaller side to approach the song in a different way.
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:lolpalm: Im sure he did.
It's just an excuse to have a stupid sized drumkit on stage.
Nothing says look at me more than that.
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Isn't that kind of setup in the pic above hell to record? I know cross bleed is a big issue in drum recording.
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Depends if they use a few overheads and room mics or if every cymbal is close-miked up separately .
The latter is how they recorded The Astonishing.
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Have I ? What I read into gzarruk's post is just another elaborate apologetic for why MM's playing is really awesome while it doesn't sound like it.
His post seemed mostly about how good Mangini's attitude has been and how well he has handled taking over for a guy who had been in the band for 20+ years. It was more about his handling of the situation than his actual drumming. That is how I read it. We can quibble about how Mangini plays and how his drums sound till the cows come home, but a lot of drummers would have cracked under the pressure by now and reacted in a negative way to a lot of the unfair shit he gets on social media simply because he replaced Mike Portnoy.
This :tup
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C73cAhFVQAA7FKp.jpg)
Don't know if any of you noticed, but that's Richard Chycki on the right. So, if some of you didn't like his mixes and/or drum sound, better not get too excited now :lol (I have no problem with him or the sound he gets btw)
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Isn't that kind of setup in the pic above hell to record? I know cross bleed is a big issue in drum recording.
Only if you need to be able to mix each cymbal individually. They're far enough away from the drums that cross-bleed shouldn't be any worse than a normal drum set. And with 4 or so mics, you can get the cymbals pretty great and do a fine job it.
His DT kit is much more cluttered and thus harder.
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Yeah this kit is one bass drum and about 4 or 5 toms smaller.
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I really hope MM gets a chance to show what he really thinks his drums should sound like.
That way, if people still don't like the sound, then the whole "but it's not his fault! it's the engineers!" can finally be laid to rest.
Just never got the idea that a great drummer automatically as perfect taste in drum sound. I haven't heard a single thing that indicates MM and I agree on what makes a good drum sound. It'll be good to finally be able to state that opinion without people telling me that I have no idea what MM wants a drum to sound like.
He's gone on record that the drum sound that most captures how he hears the drums is Mullmuzzler 2, with Elements of Persuasion as an amped up version.
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I really hope MM gets a chance to show what he really thinks his drums should sound like.
That way, if people still don't like the sound, then the whole "but it's not his fault! it's the engineers!" can finally be laid to rest.
Just never got the idea that a great drummer automatically as perfect taste in drum sound. I haven't heard a single thing that indicates MM and I agree on what makes a good drum sound. It'll be good to finally be able to state that opinion without people telling me that I have no idea what MM wants a drum to sound like.
He's gone on record that the drum sound that most captures how he hears the drums is Mullmuzzler 2, with Elements of Persuasion as an amped up version.
Oh good, then I can definitively state that I don't like how his drums sound and no one can tell me I don't have enough info to say that!
Yay!
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The main thing that I miss from Portnoy's drumming is how at times it felt like he would take the lead in the song.(SOme people didn't like this but I did) It helped me to see that the drums can be an instrument rather than just a time keeper. You could feel MP in the song. With MM I never feel HIM. It is hard to explain.
One reason for this is might be that MP may have composed more for feeling than technicality. I think that previous comments about MM's parts not being air drummerable is significant. If the average listener can't air drum than there is likely a distance emotionally between the drummer and the non-musician listener. It is where the complexity, while very impressive, might lose many of us.
Another thing that goes with this is speed. MM is insane but sometimes his playing is so fast that it is really hard to appreciate what he is doing. Couple that with bad production, which muddies things and you have another way the average listener is distanced from what he is doing.
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+1 on the musical v technical approach.
Whilst MP did overplay - his parts were very musical and suited the songs perfectly.
MM is more about how many subdivisions he can play over 9/16
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I just like Portnoy's playing style much more than Mangini's, simple as that. It all comes down to your personal preference, and what sounds good to you.
Mangini is a talented dude, no question. Arguably better than Portnoy. But again, i like Portnoy's style better.
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I don't get the MM detractors either. Great drummer. The overall music has been to the disappointment. Maybe that's part of the reason. MP had much more influence on the direction of the music, allowing more of his style come through.
Right now, it sounds like MM is just limited to being a time keeper.
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+1 on the musical v technical approach.
Whilst MP did overplay - his parts were very musical and suited the songs perfectly.
MM is more about how many subdivisions he can play over 9/16
What songs did MM do these subdivisions that do not suit the song?
If anything, MM's style in DT is to fit his drumming exactly to what the other members are playing.
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+1 on the musical v technical approach.
Whilst MP did overplay - his parts were very musical and suited the songs perfectly.
MM is more about how many subdivisions he can play over 9/16
What songs did MM do these subdivisions that do not suit the song?
If anything, MM's style in DT is to fit his drumming exactly to what the other members are playing.
And my fav MM moments (as rare as they are) is when he doesn't JUST do that.
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Yeah I couldn't care less if he's playing 16ths with one hand with the Keyboard and 8th notes on the kicks with the bass and accenting the snare along with the guitar.
Doesn't mean diddly squat if it is more technical than musical.
At least to me.
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There's no excuse for the poor way the drums have been presented on the MM DT albums. Listen to a recent Clutch or Mastodon or Rush or Spock's Beard album. Drums CAN be recorded to sound alive and exciting in this day and age! :o
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I just like Portnoy's playing style much more than Mangini's, simple as that. It all comes down to your personal preference, and what sounds good to you.
Mangini is a talented dude, no question. Arguably better than Portnoy. But again, i like Portnoy's style better.
I think that's the best way to view it. I agree with you 100% even if I disagree with you. I prefer Mangini.
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Yeah I couldn't care less if he's playing 16ths with one hand with the Keyboard and 8th notes on the kicks with the bass and accenting the snare along with the guitar.
Doesn't mean diddly squat if it is more technical than musical.
At least to me.
Given that Mangini comes from the Steve Vai / Terry Bozzio school of drum arrangement, his background in marching bands, and his view of the role of drums as if it's an orchestra, that is what is musical to him.
So the chance you will like him is low because you have different views of what is musical.
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I just like Portnoy's playing style much more than Mangini's, simple as that. It all comes down to your personal preference, and what sounds good to you.
Mangini is a talented dude, no question. Arguably better than Portnoy. But again, i like Portnoy's style better.
Agreed. And I think it has a lot to do with how much more involved Portnoy has been in the song writing process. I hope Mangini will have that opportunity on the next album.
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MM comes across like a pretty humble guy. He seemed to be very respectful coming in and realized he needed to earn trust with the other guys. This might have led him to hang back. It would be great for him to have a more prominent role in the writing process. However, that might not be his thing. Also, it seems that JP and JR do most of the composing. It would be great if they left a little more space for the drums to take the lead. That is probably one of the bigger differences as compared to MP as others have said. MP was much more of a creative force.
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:lolpalm: Im sure he did.
It's just an excuse to have a stupid sized drumkit on stage.
Nothing says look at me more than that.
Yeah, yeah.
OR, he could have been telling the truth when he said he liked to play older songs on the smaller side to approach the songs in a different way.
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I don't buy it.
It's not just anti MP either.
It's clearly a cover story.
I'm sure jumping up and down whilst playing is to approach the songs in a new way too.
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I don't buy it.
I'm sure he is very upset by that.
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I have no problem buying into the idea that a different drum setup makes you approach/play a song differently. I have wished for quite a while that DT would "scale down", for exactly that reason.
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I don't buy it.
I'm sure he is very upset by that.
k
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C73cAhFVQAA7FKp.jpg)
The symmetry of that kit is so satisfying to me. It reminds me of the drum book The New Breed.
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I don't buy it.
I'm sure he is very upset by that.
k
(https://s2.quickmeme.com/img/e4/e460fc22ffcfb120c871dcc8391bcac10e939c84bafe750425ecbd79b0299069.jpg)
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Sure - the guy has a history of spinning the facts in his favour, making everything about him and for two years openly bashed DT on social media...
Used to play standing up, shout into the mic over James singing and spit everywhere.
But if he says he has a gigantic kit to play older songs " in a different way " that must be the only reason.
:tup
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Sure - the guy has a history of spinning the facts in his favour, making everything about him and for two years openly bashed DT on social media...
Used to play standing up, shout into the mic over James singing and spit everywhere.
But if he says he has a gigantic kit to play older songs " in a different way " that must be the only reason.
:tup
I still never heard why he is always spitting on stage. Not like he's doing dip
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C73cAhFVQAA7FKp.jpg)
The symmetry of that kit is so satisfying to me. It reminds me of the drum book The New Breed.
It looks visually very pleasing indeed, but I'm not convinced of its drumming value (from my layman's perspective of course).
I mean, for one, there must be a reason why other drummers haven't adopted a symmetric kit. And if you think about it, there isn't too much value to playing a figure in mirror, other than during the short transitional time from figure A to figure B where now maybe the transition is a bit easier. On top of that, now you have the cognitive load of having to choose which of the two drums you will choose.
I have tried to watch MM for when he switches, but it always seemed to be "because he can", not because it actually helps in the grander scheme.
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About the only thing that makes any sense to me is playing higher pitched cymbals over a lower register on guitar so your cymbals don't get lost in the frequency range.
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I think they should put Mangini's drums on a platform like Portnoy had his. It would make his performance more prominent.
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He also plays his drums to take advantage of a stereo mix, being able to switch between left and right.
Beyond that, and the changing pitches (which I doubt too many people actually notice without being told about it first), he's probably just doing it to exercise his ambidexterity.
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Bill Bruford also had a symmetric drum kit.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/ec/c7/6c/ecc76c027a4830b85fb6c844bfa2a2ef.jpg)
The traditional setup of toms going down the scale arranged from left to right makes it hard to do a fast melodic run up or down the scale with only one hit per tom. The arms will cross. With the symmetric setup, Mangini just goes L R L R L R to go up and down the scale. Since he likes going up and down the scale following the keys and guitars note for note, it makes sense for his toms to be set up symmetrically.
His toms were not set-up symmetrically during his early playing years. When he started playing with Steve Vai, it was still a traditional setup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3-g0BKtPeE
As to the cymbals, the setup is definitely based on the way he sees pitch changes. It's what makes sense to him. The clearest demo I have seen of how he uses the lefty-righty change is this performance.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7nGtoYckP4
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As drummers, from my non-musician standpoint, I find both to be extremely good, but vastly different. erwinrafael pointed out the technical differences, which I would be unable to explain, but what he pointed out is what I basically hear.
Bottom line for me is Portnoy's playing had more personality in it, whereas Mangini sounds much more clinical. MM does a great job, but I do miss MP from a drumming perspective.
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As drummers, from my non-musician standpoint, I find both to be extremely good, but vastly different. erwinrafael pointed out the technical differences, which I would be unable to explain, but what he pointed out is what I basically hear.
Bottom line for me is Portnoy's playing had more personality in it, whereas Mangini sounds much more clinical. MM does a great job, but I do miss MP from a drumming perspective.
Same here. And I don't buy the "if he was more a part of the compositional process, his drum parts would be better", because I've known the guy for almost 25 years now, and I've never heard him play diffrent from how he plays in DT. Skill-wise, he's a fantastic drummer, but as you said, he's very clinical as well and he's always been. He won't turn into a groove machine just because he's more involved. But that's only my two cents after all.
B.Lee
PS : I may sound as if I didn't like MM, but I like him a lot. Simply put, I just tend to prefer what MP brought to the table.
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Summary.
MP : better dum parts
MM : better person
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Summary.
MP : better dum parts
MM : better person
Yup.
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The MM detractors are a vocal minority IMO. People will ALWAYS draw comparisons, that's life given the situation. Some people will dislike his style of playing, that's personal opinion and won't be changed unless MM changes (which he likely won't). The rest of us just enjoy it for what it is, which is a world class drummer, which I believe is the majority. I think if you took the failure of TA out of the picture, you'd also see DT as a very consistent band during MM tenure. I know you can't really take TA out of it, but he also was not really involved in the writing and direction of the band to do that (plus he himself was pretty awesome on it). Even now through playing the classics on this tour, the band is still doing their thing with the biggest differences being MP's fan attachment, that is still lacking in the band since his departure and MM has not and was never asked to make up for that.
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The MM detractors are a vocal minority IMO. People will ALWAYS draw comparisons, that's life given the situation. Some people will dislike his style of playing, that's personal opinion and won't be changed unless MM changes (which he likely won't). The rest of us just enjoy it for what it is, which is a world class drummer, which I believe is the majority. I think if you took the failure of TA out of the picture, you'd also see DT as a very consistent band during MM tenure. I know you can't really take TA out of it, but he also was not really involved in the writing and direction of the band to do that (plus he himself was pretty awesome on it). Even now through playing the classics on this tour, the band is still doing their thing with the biggest differences being MP's fan attachment, that is still lacking in the band since his departure and MM has not and was never asked to make up for that.
Totally agree with what you say Cram.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C73cAhFVQAA7FKp.jpg)
The symmetry of that kit is so satisfying to me. It reminds me of the drum book The New Breed.
It looks visually very pleasing indeed, but I'm not convinced of its drumming value (from my layman's perspective of course).
I mean, for one, there must be a reason why other drummers haven't adopted a symmetric kit. And if you think about it, there isn't too much value to playing a figure in mirror, other than during the short transitional time from figure A to figure B where now maybe the transition is a bit easier. On top of that, now you have the cognitive load of having to choose which of the two drums you will choose.
I have tried to watch MM for when he switches, but it always seemed to be "because he can", not because it actually helps in the grander scheme.
The reason why I and alot of people are using the traditional right handed setup is because my technic and drumming dosen't revolve around ambidexterity. I aim to be equally strong with both hands but I still lead most things with my right hand so having a right handed kit makes sense to me as with most drummers.
If your equally strong with your left as with your right hand, there's actually no point in theory to setup up your kit in a traditional right handed setup because you actually limit your playing in a sense. If you wan't to lead and play with your left hand having toms and cymbals on the left side is very convininent. I myself have a floortom to my left because that opens my left hand to do certain things that I can't do with my left on my regular floor tom. Playing a Hi-hat that's mounted on the right side next to your Ride for example feels more natural than crossing for me.
MMs toms are also setup so he can play fast double strokes runs across the toms much easier.
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I used to have a 10" splash cymbal mounted upside down on my ride on the right side next to my toms.
It felt so good splashing that thing in the heavy part :D
Plus it also felt good washing the 18" crash ride I had just above it.
Something about having both arms out.
However. I do really enjoy playing hi hat by crossing over. It just feels the best to me.
I also really used to like having a snare drum - usually a piccolo - to the left of my main snare to do off beats etc. :)
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I'm a naturally left handed person and have my drums set up lefty, but I can lead with both hands. My planned drum setup for when I have my own place will implement cymbals on both sides to allow me to lead with both hands but with toms in a traditional lefty setup. For me, when playing on the hi hats, the cross handed technique feels tighter which is better suited for being locked into a groove, while playing on the crashes and ride with open hands feels more loose and flowing, which works better for a more lyrical style of playing.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C73cAhFVQAA7FKp.jpg)
The symmetry of that kit is so satisfying to me. It reminds me of the drum book The New Breed.
It looks visually very pleasing indeed, but I'm not convinced of its drumming value (from my layman's perspective of course).
I mean, for one, there must be a reason why other drummers haven't adopted a symmetric kit. And if you think about it, there isn't too much value to playing a figure in mirror, other than during the short transitional time from figure A to figure B where now maybe the transition is a bit easier. On top of that, now you have the cognitive load of having to choose which of the two drums you will choose.
I have tried to watch MM for when he switches, but it always seemed to be "because he can", not because it actually helps in the grander scheme.
The reason why I and alot of people are using the traditional right handed setup is because my technic and drumming dosen't revolve around ambidexterity. I aim to be equally strong with both hands but I still lead most things with my right hand so having a right handed kit makes sense to me as with most drummers.
If your equally strong with your left as with your right hand, there's actually no point in theory to setup up your kit in a traditional right handed setup because you actually limit your playing in a sense. If you wan't to lead and play with your left hand having toms and cymbals on the left side is very convininent. I myself have a floortom to my left because that opens my left hand to do certain things that I can't do with my left on my regular floor tom. Playing a Hi-hat that's mounted on the right side next to your Ride for example feels more natural than crossing for me.
MMs toms are also setup so he can play fast double strokes runs across the toms much easier.
Exactly. MM is both ambidextrous and plays "open" instead of "closed" or "crossed". So, for him, his setup makes perfect sense.
The reason other drummers don't have a setup like this is that most of them are neither ambidextrous nor play "open". That's it. Full stop.
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MM uses such setup because:
1) He feels more musical
2) He feels more resourceful
3) He can
That's about it. I don't get the debate that sprung out of that. :lol
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1. People think it actually sounds less musical and more technical...
2. Ok he needs it all to play all the DT catalogue and it's not as stupid looking as MP's double kit. I'm glad he ditched bass drums 3 & 4 as nobody can tell me he *needed* them..
... yes i've heard the " well he needed two 22" bass drums and one 24" bass drum for big accents. But miked up and compressed /EQ'd and echoey through a massive venue PA..
.. I hardly think you'd notice any discernible difference.
And if so - what was the FOURTH bass drum for ? His kit looks a lot better with the two bass drums...
3. Now that I agree on 100%.
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MP had a 4th kick drum?
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No MM did on the Dramatic Events tour.
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No MM did on the Dramatic Events tour.
Ohhhh, gotcha.
Yea, I understand his philosophy with that, and the toms being melodic, but you're totally right about a live setting. It all sounds the same.
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1. People think it actually sounds less musical and more technical...
The dichotomy you are trying to draw doesn't make sense. "Musical" and "technical" are not opposite ends of some spectrum. They don't even correlate.
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dt needs a simple rock drummer
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That didn't work so well for Avenged Sevenfold after MP
I personally had no issues with it, but I think a lot of other people did.
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1. People think it actually sounds less musical and more technical...
The dichotomy you are trying to draw doesn't make sense. "Musical" and "technical" are not opposite ends of some spectrum. They don't even correlate.
I think this is what MM was saying about people's lack of respect to diffferent musicalities. Just because it doesn't sound musical to you doesn't mean it's not musical to others.
From a Drumtalk interview:
"I think the worst thing that you can do as a musician is to fall for the lie of prejudice through ignorance and not acknowledge what it takes to play other styles or what work it takes just to begin to perceive music. Meaning, how can you say something is musical or not when you can't process it first, when you don't even know what it is? You don't really have a right to judge it — [whether] it's musical or not. You can't make music with it, 'cause you don't know what it is.
"You know, this guy that plays brushes… Brushes can be the most musical thing ever in a proper setting. Playing the bass drums and cymbals as loud as can humanly and as fast can be can be the most musical thing in the world in a proper setting.
"There's a prejudice towards… Let's say a jazz musician… The worst thing a jazz musician can do is to say that 'speed/death metal has no feeling, man — no groove.' Well, that person has probably never stood in front of a P.A system with somebody who worked their butt off to get their feet to move at 15 beats a second or something and those bass drums are flying through a P.A. system. Don't tell me that that doesn't have any feeling, because it practically makes me go to the bathroom; that's how much feeling that has. And then when you see the big picture of all that there is to do, you have respect for other people, you have respect for the work that they've done. And you might not like the music, you might not spend time with the music, but at least you have a respect for it, and it changes you, it changes how you view your own music."
"...I would have students that wanted to work on their feet, and in order to do that, you have to practice all the time and put hours in and sweat and sacrifice and suffer. And inevitably, a handful of those students came to me saying that a jazz student took the time — they actually took time out of their life — to knock on their door, to open the door and to say to that kid, Why are you doing that all day, man? It's so unmusical, man.'
"That's what a musican shouldn't do — put himself into that narrow-vision world where they ultimately get negative toward things that they don't know. Whereas that jazz kid could have learned something from that student practicing the same thing twenty hours a week; he could have learned how to repeat and practice. So maybe when he goes to an audition and he's having a bad day, he can call upon himself and at least be this good [raises hand]. You practice 'till you're that good [raises hand higher] but at least when it counts, you can be that good [lowers hand]. So the metal guy can learn something from the jazz guy, and the jazz guy can learn something from the Latin guy, and the Latin guy can learn something from the steel-drum player.
"So the worst thing you can do is choose to be ignorant, because you don't wanna look at what's available and what's out there. You don't have to like it, you don't have to practice it, you don't have to eat it, sleep it and drink it, but it's good to just know about it, so that you ultimately end up being at peace with who you are. You're at peace with the path that you've chosen, and you let other people be at peace with the path that they've chosen, and you respect it."
.And if so - what was the FOURTH bass drum for ? His kit looks a lot better with the two bass drums...
The 4th bass drum is an electronic drum, an e-pro, that has all the effects (cowbell, etc) that MM triggers. I think it's a design choice to make it look like a bass drum because the kit would look unbalanced if he only had three bass drums.
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Why would it look unbalanced with three? One center, one left, one right.
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Sorry, I was confused. :lol He indeed has four acoustic bass drums. During the ADTOE tour he used a big, two medium and one small acoustic bass drum. The medium bass drums were used for double bass playing, the big and small were used for dynamic playing.
He simplified it during the AFTR tour. Two medium and two small. His main bass drums are the mediums and he uses the smalls when he want uneven aounding bass drum hits. There are two sets, one when he is leading with his right, the other whenleading with his left.
The ePros are another set of pedala, and he had some other ePros up top (the bell effects during Enigma Machine).
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I think he uses pads now for the extra bass drums .
It looks a lot better imo and less silly.
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At least when he had the extra bass drums, he was actually using them. Unlike Alex Van Halen who really just had them for display. :lol
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I'm fine with however a drummer wants to set up their kit. 1 bass drum, 4 bass drum, whatever. All I care about is the end product, which is not at all relative to how big their kit is.
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But you get all kinds of wound up if the fictional Enterprise is "too big" in a fictional film :neverusethis:
Admit it - you secretly love the Uss Vengeance :biggrin: :biggrin:
ANYWAY - he can set his kit up however he likes - it's ok to think it looks silly though.
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I'm fine with however a drummer wants to set up their kit. 1 bass drum, 4 bass drum, whatever. All I care about is the end product, which is not at all relative to how big their kit is.
Well... I do think there's a correlation though. I think when drummers have big kits, when they want to have a change in sound, they will more likely move to a different part of the kit, whereas on a small kit the drummer will try use the existing kit in a slightly different way, I.e. work the instrument instead of switching to a different one.
I am more a fan of the latter approach, but I know that in metal, the former is the preferred approach.
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I can't really say I favor one or the other. They can each produce cool results, so whatever.
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I didn't use to have a preference, but I remember when Snakes & Arrows came out and I was blown away how much sound difference Neil Peart achieved within the same drum. Peart is far from a small kit guy for sure, but he's IMHO one of the few guys who knows when to scale back and let the drum do the talking.
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Yeah, I can see that.
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Mangini can play with a small kit (like he did with Tribe of Judah). He just really sees drums not just as rhythmic instruments but also as tonal instruments. I thinnk it's because of his background. From his website:
1977-1981 ALL East U.S.A. Percussionist (1st Chair,) Massachusetts All State Orchestra Percussionist (1st Chair,) Massachusetts Eastern District Orchestra Percussionist (1st Chair.) Waltham, MA Senior High School John Phillip Sousa Award for Concert Band, Waltham, MA Junior High School Band Director’s Award.
He honed his skills playng percussion for orchestras. And in orchestras, percussions are used tonally.
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.